Episode 9: Look for the Light

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Episode Transcript

(00:04):
We're in Ladies and gentlemen, boysand girls, we're here. It's the

(00:39):
end of the first season of ofMushrooms and Men. I am one of
your hosts also, who's also oneof the hosts of the Game of Thrones
House a Dragon show that my friendhere Yesharre, my co host, the
co host of this him and Idid that show as well. And we're
at the end here of the shownow of Mushrooms and Men, a last
of us podcast. What a shame, right that the season had to end

(00:59):
out that their own nine episodes.Uh yeah, it's it's it's Ober.
And like our friend Shrek once said, it ain't ogre till it's ogre.
It ain't oger until it ain't ogeruntil Merle gets murdered folks. Yeah,
but uh yeah, I think thiswas the episode that I was maybe the
one I was most anticipating because Iwanted to see how closely they stayed towards

(01:23):
the story of the game, andI think they were pretty close to it.
Actually, we could go to moreof the specifics. Um also just
rhythm shout out this direct This andlast episode was directed by Ali Abassi,
who's a Persian director my people,who also happened to direct a really weird
like Norwegian or Swedish movie called Beastor something like that I watched a few
years ago with trolls. Why amI mentioning this? Uh? It's called

(01:47):
Border about border patrol agent who's atroll. Uh, It's it's cool.
He also directed this movie that justcame out recently called Holy Spider that is
about a serial killer of prostitutes inthe name of Allah in Mashad, which
is where my dad was born inthe late nineties early two thousands. So
I watched that last night. SoI got a lot of Ali Abbasi uh
in my veins. Right now,you're rep in the rep in the Persia

(02:10):
right here, brother, Yeah,yeah, yeah, we see. That's
the thing I grew up. Igrew up. You and I grew up
together, and a and a fairlyI mean fairly, you know, mixed
community of people. But I neverheard you say Iran. Growing up.
You always said I'm Persian. Yourealize that, Yeah, I know,
I and I know why. Iknow why. I understand why because I'm

(02:35):
trying not to get deported. Man. I am Caucasian as far as you
know, legally, I am Caucasian, right, uh yeah, No,
On this episode, we're like Ysharkind of mentioned in the lead up,
we're gonna be talking about the finalepisode of the first season of this show,
Look for the Light, the finalepisode of the first season of The
Last of Us. So, likeyou mentioned, it's directed by Ali Abbasi

(02:57):
and once again written by Craig Mazinand Neil Truckman. And what happens this
episode will we finally get to whereJoel and Ellie have been heading this whole
time. We get to the firefliesin Salt Lekasiti, where if you've never
seen the Book of Mormon, it'sa long story in saltasit That's all I

(03:20):
could think of when they're fucking sayingit over and over again. That's all
I could think of was Book ofMormon. God, damn you, Trey
Parkard, Matt Stone. But weget to where we're going, finally,
the moment we've all been waiting for, because if you know anything about this
game, you know that the endingof the game is kind of not I
guess controversial is not the word Iwould use, but shocking, like I
don't really I don't know, Likethe story makes it very clear what's going

(03:45):
to happen. I think it's moreimpressive that the game, when given the
opportunity to actually do it, actuallydoes the thing that most of these things
would not do well. The gamedoes it, but we didn't know if
the show was going to do it, because again they have made changes.
They did say the show when thegame end in the same spot, but
that doesn't mean they're going to dothe same thing. The show, like

(04:06):
you mentioned, more or less copiesthe game one for one, even at
least these last couple the last couplebits of the game are more or less
shown to you on screen. Sandsthe going and killing everybody, And we'll
get to that because they do showthat, and I think it's a little
excessive, to say the least.Maybe I think it's a little I guess

(04:28):
a little much, but I getwhy they did it the way that they
did. Yeah, I mean so, let's obviously the final twenty or so
many says. I think what mostpeople are going to think about. The
episode does open up with Ellie likeclearly traumatized by what she's seen and done
with David the previous episode, andI thought that was an interesting dynamic because
like we've generally seen her like prettyhappy, go lucky, even when she's

(04:50):
done some like fucked up, arguablysadistic things in the past that have hinted
at a potentially darker side to herand Joel's space. Really just like doing
the let's talk around it thing,because like they both can't be like fully
open to one another. Like evenwhen he tells her like about his suicide,
He's like, oh, I didyou know that thing? And she's

(05:10):
like, I'm happy you didn't doit, and he essentially said without saying,
you're the reason I've found like apurpose now to Ellie. So like
I enjoyed those character moments. Thegiraffe thing was taken actually straight from the
game, and I thought the draftwas cg turns out the draffe is real.
Everything around it was cige. Idon't know, how do you feel
about like the opening, you didn'tmention the biggest part of the opening,

(05:31):
Ladies and gentlemen, we get toyeah, now we get to see the
second member of the video game cast. I would well, I know,
sure, but let's let's be realhere. This is one of the all
this is the actual video game personwho's really given anything to do in the
entire show. Talking about Ashley Johnson, who does the voice for Ellie in

(05:53):
the Last of Us one and twoand who the character in the second game
is modeled after. Definitely not inthe first we swear it's not based off
of anybody else. It's just acomposite who totally looks like somebody who was
in a movie called Juno. Wepromise not the same. But but in
the Last of Us two, AshleyJohnson is more. You can even see

(06:13):
her facially more in the character,just like Troy Baker in the second game.
She's also closer in age to likethat Ellie, but we get to
see her as Anna, who isEllie's mom, giving birth to Ellie and
then being murdered by Merle uh Dandredgewho plays Marlene again because she plays Marlene
in the video game and in theshow, I guess Marlene is probably Marlene.

(06:38):
Yeah, probably herself. Yeah yeahyeah yeah yeah yeah so and and
I really liked the opening because itgave like a definitive answer why Ellie was
immune, and that's she was basicallyvia umbilical chord, because she basically was
given birth at the same moment.More or less her mother was bitten,
so it's like, you know,it's kind of the audi adi but essentially

(07:00):
that transmits some sort of sensor thatto other infective makes her appear like one
plus gives her an immunity to it, which is you know, why why
not makes sense? I buy it? Well, why didn't anybody realize that?
Um? Well, so here's thething. Remember when Marlene comes,
she says, oh, I cutthe umbilical chord before I was bitten.
And even though Marlene like, you'renot sure, she tries it. She's

(07:21):
like, she repeats, she's likeI cut it before, and she's saying
like, hey, you know,take this baby, you're my best friend.
M So, like Marlene, similarto Ellie at the end, I
think knows it's sort of bullshit,but goes with it because of the love
for that person. Sure. Andthen and then also like because she's never

(07:43):
been beforehand like Marline and obviously doesn'tturn Marlene probably at that point thinks,
Okay, I guess she did cutit before she was bitten, and you
know, probably doesn't think any ofit. I did, however, think
based on the end of the episode, you could just you know, get
a lot of pregnant women about togive birth and have them. That's all
I'm saying. That's I'm just sayingand what we're both thinking. And that's
not from the game. That isnot from the game, because well,

(08:05):
in the game, they kind ofjust they kind they kind of YadA YadA
what they're trying to do to Ellie. In the game, in the surgery
part, Merle or Merle, Goddamn it, Merl Dandridge plays Marline.
If I refer to her as Merlinat any point, you'll know who I'm
talking about. In the game,there's none of the like and this is
how this and this is in thebrain, and there's none of that.
Yeah, it's just we're doing this. Okay, Well it's they say that

(08:26):
it's in the brain, but wedon't have the context of how our immunity
happened. But nothing in this contradictsthat being and Neil Drukman said this was
always his plan. He just neverhad an opportunity like to display he was
maybe god doing a comic book orlike a short film. So I think,
for all intents and purposes, thisis how it worked. It's it's

(08:46):
not like a change where it likethe affected being communal and like, you
know, one person can set upa whole thing that's new to the show.
But the thing about the mother passingit on at the moment of birth,
that is not to sound nerves,but Cannon, it seems like like
that was the original intent. Notto be a nerd or anything. Be

(09:07):
a fucking nerd. Please, OhI know, I'd rather you be the
guy who's very disinterested in pretends hedoesn't like things. Do that. Okay,
yeah, thanks, but yeah youI did really enjoy that scene and
I like that it gave a littlebit more like from the game you Know
This and from the show you KnowThis. Yes, Marlene and Ellie have
like a relationship that's lasted a longtime, but Marlene has put her with

(09:30):
Fedra, right. She hasn't likereally taken care of her herself. She's
put her in a place that's safeand also the people she's fighting, which
I find an interesting. I thinkthere's like there's something to be said about
what that says about Marlene. Umsure, but I guess the point is
we know that Marlene really cared aboutEllie's mother and does care about Ellie.
I mean probably don't see her Inecessarily as a daughter like Joel does,
but definitely isn't taking the decision she'smaking in this episode lightly now, you

(09:56):
know. It's I appreciate that there'san opening scene, a cold open once
again. I like. I likethat they have Ashley Johnson finally in the
show. I mean we I thinkwe've probably been waiting for it. I
mean, and we knew it wascoming, because how could you have Troy
Baker in the show and not haveAshley Johnson remains to be seen. If
they'll be in the next season.I don't think so. I guess this
is the one time they're in theshow. Now. Yeah, it's kind

(10:20):
of strange unless they just show upas other characters, but this isn't a
show from the seventies, so oh. Also fun fact, one of the
nurses was played by the actress whoplays Abby, who we won't get into
the details, but she is avery I mean, she is one of
the main characters. We can sayshe's one of the main characters of two.
So I'm sure we'll see that actressprobably play a Rolands. Can I

(10:41):
pause? It's something here controversial?I think this episode I think this episode
wasn't very good. I think thisepisode was a poor way to Ella show.
Hold On, hold On. Ithink it was rushed comparatively to everything
else that we saw. I thinkthat they I think that they had an
interesting story beat that I took anddid something with at the beginning of the
episode, with the two of themand having that conversation, it gets interrupted,

(11:05):
obviously because they have to Hugh closeto the game, right, The
game and the show end the same, and we'll talk about the ending.
I pause it here an unpopular opinion, not because I haven't have any opinion
about the second game, but Iknow what the second game is and the
story that it tells. Fucking ignorethe second game and do your own thing
with this show. I'm dead serious. You want to know why there's nobody

(11:26):
who wants to see what happens toJoel in the video game happened to Pedro
Pascal. No matter how bad ofa character he's written to be in the
game, he's not in the show. He's just not. It's but the
character of Joel in the show isnot gray like the character is in the

(11:48):
game. I know you know that, and I know everybody who's played the
game knows that while watching the show, and that's the thing that Neil Druckman
and Craig Mazin couldn't bring themselves todo, which was have the person who's
playing Joel actually kind of be offputting, not physically off putting, but
just kind of gruff and a littleabrasive towards Ellie. I mean, they

(12:11):
do come around eventually, but thecharacter of Pedro Pascal's Joel in the show,
like, I don't know, man, you know what I'm getting at,
because like it is, it isa different feel to the show,
the way that they go about resolvingthis kind of decision that his character makes,
but it leaches into everything that they'vedone throughout this entire show. I
have mixed feelings about it. Onone hand, I agree they I mean

(12:35):
they've even said they tried to softenJoel up. Although sorry with the David
episode, we saw him take darkerturns and he said he's done bad things,
saying it but telling and showing hedid two different things. We did
see it when he tortured those guysand you and I said, what what
did we say? It came outof nowhere and it felt unearned because they
had only done it that one timeto set us up. So let me

(13:00):
ask, did they do it thenan episode ago to set us up for
this and only this because they hadbeen doing such a good job of laying
the seeds of everything else throughout theseason. And then it's like, oh,
yeah, oh we forgot. Joel'sactually kind of a morally ambiguous character.
But oh, by the way,the things that he was doing,
those people were terrible people. Nobody'sgoing to defend what they were doing.

(13:20):
They tried to kill Ellie and theywere turning them hit her over to their
cannibal overlord. Like, as faras I'm concerned, yeah, he killed
them, but okay, like likeI guess I'm of two minds and one
mind. On one hand, I'mlike, okay, they didn't. They
didn't pull punches like they could havedone it. Where, yes, he
kills people, he lies to Ellie, they escape, and like there's still

(13:43):
consequences of lying to Ellie and youknow, stopping the potential salvation of humanity.
But maybe he doesn't in the softerway. Maybe you know, he
only kills almost like self defense,or you know, you could make it
a bit more palatable, or theyjust have him essentially like Rampage and just
turn into just an automaton, likeit's like John Wick basically, and like

(14:05):
where it's really hard, even ifyou understand his love for Ellie to justify
like the level of like destruction hecauses. And yeah, so I really
do have mixed opinions on it basedon how they've built him up in the
show, but I think coming inas someone who wanted to see it adapted

(14:26):
from the perspective of someone who's seenthe game, I think I appreciate that
they just went for it in thefinale, but maybe they shouldn't have stopped
him as up as much earlier on. And I think that's a valid criticism
has that the character of Joel inthe game kind of has it coming in
the second game because he's just like, yeah, I did it, Like
okay, like you made the decisionfine, but like you're kind of like

(14:48):
again, like you're morally more morallyambiguous than he is here, and it's
like, maybe it's just again,I go back to something we've been saying
this whole time. It's hard toroot against Pedro Pascal. Motherfucker's Like why
do you cast someone this charismatic asyour lead and then be like we need
some shades of gray here. I'mnot saying Pedro Pascal can't do it.

(15:09):
That's not the point. It's justhe's too likable, he's too lovable.
He's like he's like he's like ameme now on the internet. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, but I don't. I didn't leave this episode being like,
oh, he's so cuddly, LikeI was like, no, I
was kind of like it was kindof cringe at the end. Yeah,
but like that in and of itselfwas kind of bizarre because he's like,

(15:30):
all of a sudden starts mentioning hisdead daughter and it's like, cringe,
bro, like why are you goinghere? Like it just felt strong,
it felt like post climax. Itwas a different character. Even it's it's
weird because like before the hospital scene, he's almost the softest he's ever been,
the most vulnerable, and that's greatand that is fantastic, but then

(15:50):
afterwards it's this weird bullshit of likeyou would have liked my daughter, Like
what the fuck writing is this?Like what who's writing this scene? Like
it's like out of some old Westernall of a sudden where it's like you
would have lacked old Sarah. Shewas so she's scampered up rocks and stuff.
Was like, what the this isweird, dude? Like, I
actually think it's a bit really Likehe's clearly mentally distressed, traumatized, probably

(16:15):
as PTSD, among a litany ofother things we can't even fathom, and
like he's compartmentalizing, and we actuallysee him compartmentalize before. Even when he's
being open with Ellie, he's stillnot being completely truthful. He can't like,
like I mentioned, he can't eventell her you're the reason I'm like,
I have a purpose to live,like so he it does continue that
him talking around the thing in thesearch of comfort. So I actually I

(16:40):
think had less of a problem withthat. But I mean, do you
want to talk about the hospital sequence? Yeah, let's talk about it.
So you you tell me, becauseI haven't gotten to this point in the
game yet, you tell me howclose to the game it is first,
because that's something I'm obviously curious ofoutside of him watching it on YouTube,
watching it on YouTube and experiencing asone playing the game or two very different

(17:00):
things. So, um, yeah, in the game, you take Ellie
to the hospital. I don't rememberif you get knocked out or whatever on
the way, but that's neither herenor there. You take her to the
hospital. As she goes, um, now, I'm gonna say Merle Marley,
got you, you got you too, buddy, got me, got
me, got me, And likea SIMI competition, Marlene, you know,

(17:21):
comes to Joel and says, youknow, we're prepping her for surgery
and jewels, like what surgery Andshe's basically says like this is the only
way. She says in the show, I think as well, it's not
a hard percent, but the doctorthinks that we can do something, you
know, to potentially come up witha cure or vaccine or some sort of
treatment for this, So we doknow it's not a one hundred percent like
that is clear in the game.It's maybe a little less clear of the

(17:44):
show. But she says, wethink there's a solution. The show makes
it seem like this is going tosucceed if it happens. Yeah, the
show I think comes a little stronger, whereas in the game it's like it
probably will, but it's not hardpercent. But regardless, like this is
the closest humanity has had had toa cure for this plague that's consumed the
last twenty years of the world.And obviously it's like the trolley problem on

(18:06):
steroids, right, you know thetrolley problem. Yeah yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah yeah, run overone to save one hundred, or save
one and let one hundred die,Like yeah, I mean so, And
we know that Marlene is a firefly. She can she can sacrifice hers for
a greater cause, so that makessense. Whereas Joel we've established, like
Ellie is everything she is Sarah Parttwo. He has nothing without her,

(18:29):
so I understand why he would notwant her to do that and like be
the way he is. But inthe game, yeah, you get a
gun and you just start mowing dudesdown in the hospital and at least you
in coming up shooting the doctor.Who um, just just pay attention to
the fact that they lingered on thedoctor a bit um for season two only

(18:49):
differences. You actually kill the nursesin the game. You let you let
them live in a show. Butit wasn't like you don't have to kill
him in the game, do younot? I don't know? Wow,
block them all bro time to diemultiple videos of the finale of the game
where you don't have to kill everybodybut the right roun. They were working

(19:14):
for their life. They had ascalpel. You saw it, um so,
and then you yet you take youtake Ellie. She wakes up in
the car and you basically give itthis bullshit about you know, they couldn't
they did the tests, it wouldn'twork. We left Marlene's busy ha ha.
And then you know, Ellie asked, you know, is that actually
what happened? And Joel says,like, I swear, And then you

(19:36):
know, Ellie's like okay, likein a way that it's the way you
say okay when I don't know,you just walked in on your partner,
you know, fucking the poolboy,and uh, okay are you cheating on
me? And you're like okay,um, I say, this is a
formal pool boy. Simply study.That's all I can say to you on
that one. I mean, theshow is more or less that, Yeah,

(20:03):
I mean, they don't they don'tsay, hey, let's come up
with a more palatable way of youknow, Joel dooming humanity potentially for his
selfish gains, but maybe he doesn'thave to kill that many people. It's
like, no, Joel like shouldpeople in the back, people that are
running. I mean, the wayhe kills Marlene is pretty rough. Like
she comes up to them. Marlenesays, hey, Joel, like,
I'm essentially willing to forgive that youthirty of my people killed. You know,

(20:26):
the doctor who maybe you shouldn't bekilling doctors in a time like this.
Just give her back. And Joelshoots her and then comes back in
double taps because he's like, Idon't want to risk any shot of more
risk to Ellie, Like I don'twant any loose ends. I'm going to
kill the person who may even representdepends on your perception of fireflies, but

(20:47):
the best shot of even beyond justto cure but like the new democracy and
so like in that moment, Joeldooms humanity to the status quo. And
that's not what Ellie would have wanted. No, no, And I think
Marlene says it. I don't thinkshe says it manipulatly. I think she's
like she knows Ellie right, Likeshe's been around Ellie her whole life,
and I think we know Ellie generallywould do the right thing. And I

(21:11):
think in a case like this,like Ellie probably would say, yes,
I'm willing to be sacrificed with havemy life means something like she's been looking
for meaning she never had family,And yeah, she doesn't get to make
that choice. So how do youfeel about the ending? Just in general?
Just in general, now that you'rehere's your opportunity ACKs poetically about a

(21:33):
game from twenty that's ending. IsI mean again, it's ending, is
now being enjoyed by x, youknow, ten x people than it was
before. I absolutely, like asa person who you know, just my
inner moral compass was just on fire, Like I hated Joel after this,
like I really did. And youknow, maybe it's cognitive dissonance because in

(21:55):
the game you do some pretty badthings and you killed probably some not that
kill people. But I don't know, it seems in the context of this
greater good always this is just pureselfishness and the fact that he is willing
to doom all of humanity for thisand he kills so many people in the
way. It's just it was reallyhard for me to swallow. And I
listened to the Last of Us podcastthat Craig Mason and Neil Druckman do after

(22:18):
every episode, and something interesting.I think Neil Druckman said he was like,
you know, when he asked people, it's just a fifty fifty,
like fifty percent of people say,like I get it, Like I actually
would have done sathing. Joel didtwo percent, Like no, he's a
monster. But he says when heasked parents, almost universally they said they
would have done what Joel would do. And that kind of goes back to
that theme we talked about of love, like you know, just because something

(22:38):
is love doesn't make it good.And this is this is Joel's love for
Ellie, but it's I think theworst side of love, and it reminds
me of just like general conflict orsomeone is like, oh, you hurt
the person that hurt me, soI'm going to hurt you back. And
it's just like leads to the cycleof violence, and it's I feel like
a similar thing, except Joel happensto have the cycle of violence. Be

(23:00):
I'm going to make sure Manny nevergets secure for this virus. I don't
know what are your thoughts, Howdid you feel about it? I know
you knew about the ending, butyou've never really seen it play out,
you know. You know, Iagain, like it's one of those things
where I read about what the endingwas in twenty thirteen and I just thought
to myself, I was like,holy shit, who's making this game.
It's like, oh, right,it's the people that are making Uncharted.

(23:21):
Maybe they can actually put some ofthat storytelling prowess into Uncharted, and they
did, so I, like youjust said, I missed out when this
was the topic of discussion ten yearsago. So coming to it ten years
later knowing everything that we know now, because again, I can't experience the
ending in a last of US twoless universe, you know what I mean,
Because as someone who's dialed in likeyou are, I know where this

(23:44):
is going if they go the waythat it's going. So I can't not
think about that. So to tryand remove all of that from the equation
as much as I can, becausethat matters, it really does. The
right decision and the wrong decision aren'twhat's important here, right, It's whether
And you know, Craig Mason saysit aptly and that after the episode,
he says, you need to justunderstand why Joel gets to the decision that

(24:07):
he does because hopefully, thankfully,up until this point, knock on wood,
none of us have had to makethis kind of decision, and hopefully
we'll never have to. So inmy mind, it's less about what I
make that decision. I look atit more. Did you get me to
the point where I can understand whythis character is making this decision in the
scope of the narrative, and doesthis make narrative sense? And it does.

(24:32):
It's you know, if you playthe game, I don't know how
you could think it's going to endany other way, you know, And
if you're watching the show, Idon't know how you could think it could
end any other way. Once shesays, we have to kill her to
make whatever it is, like wehave to take her brain out of her
body, bro and like fuck aroundwith it, like she's not getting it

(24:52):
back to Saint no fucking return catchingrelease. Shit. I understand why we're
why Joel makes the decision that hedoes. Would I make the same decision
to doom humanity? It might beeasier for me to make the decision to
let Ellie live and run off andkill all the fireflies, only because humanity's
already fucking doomed, Like and andJoel says, like she like he has

(25:17):
nothing else to live for, Likehe doesn't, he doesn't give a fuck
about committee, Like he cares aboutone thing, Ellie. And like his
brother is in a good situation inJackson, so like he's fine. So
yeah, from Joel's perspective, thislike the rest of everyone else doesn't really
matter, right And in a lotof ways, like for me, that's
probably where I would come from,less of like a parent and child thing,

(25:40):
but it's more like give fuck them, like fuck everybody else. Fuck
them. Like if you if you'remy ride or die, I'm not giving
you up to save everybody else.Like, and I get that decision.
That's a decision I would be willingto make personally, I would make that
decision one hundred times if given onehundred opportunity. Is if it were my
wife or people close to me,Like I'd be like, yeah, fuck

(26:03):
the rest of everybody else. Andyou know what to self to self.
Do not put in Chris Stash's hands, don't put the few, don't put
the fad of humanity in any human'shands. Because you think anybody's going to
make the right decision. People saythey will people will say character in the
show, sure, but I'm talkingabout a real person in the real world
is going to make decisions more inline with what Joel did unless that unless

(26:27):
unless you really like again, Likethat's the thing. The decision that Marlene
is asking Joel to make, sheknows he's not going to make that decision
the moment she sees him freak outwhen she says, Joe, you know
right, because she's like, ohshit, like this is about to get
real bad, real She should havejust shot his ass. You want me

(26:48):
to be perfectly honest, That's howthis game should have ended. Marlene goes,
bang, now we can do whateverthe fuck we want, and Joel's
dead, Like, I mean,yea, if you're just show she did
show like some compassion, right,and if it's me, Like that's her
mistake, is what he took advantageof because if it had been me and
I had seen someone react that waywith like bang, no, not even

(27:11):
gonna fucking do this. You haveher from Yeah, she knows what he's
capable of. Like, that's thething I'm not saying. It's not Joel's
fault. Joel ultimately makes the decision, but Joel's also putting a pretty advantageous
position to make that decision as thecharacter in this, Like if it's me
and I'm Marlene, Like, I'mfucking utilitarian to the end. Fuck him

(27:32):
like he deserves. If he's gonnado this and he knows what the score
is, then he doesn't deserve tobe here. And it's not well,
I'm gonna let you walk into astairwell by yourself with armed guards. Hardy,
harror, harror. I'm James Bondvillain. This could never end poorly.
I would never do that. I'dbe like, I'm gonna shoot you
myself because see, you now wantto leave the fate of humanity in my
hands, because I'll make the fuckingdecision that she couldn't. That's the other

(27:55):
part of this, Like, that'sthe part that nobody else talks about,
is how do you make it thisdecision like this when you're also given the
opportunity to make that decision. Joel'sgiven the opportunity to make a decision in
the game, and in the show, Marlene gives him that opportunity. If
Marlene were really committed to the cause, she would have fucking killed his ass
and I just like, again,not to blame a character, but that's
kind of a plot hole that's glaring, isn't it. I don't know if

(28:19):
I would call that a plot becauseI do think like her word is important
to her, and like so herword is more important to her than saving
humanity is all right, Well,no one else is making it, but
she's making a decision based on herown moral no too right, I mean
in her mind, she's like,I have two armed guards on him.
I've told them shout to kill ifhe gives you, like any inclusing.

(28:41):
And there's a bit of like thesuperhero you know, plot armor to Joel.
And that is a problem because inthe show they essentially have to make
him the terminator, like because inthe game, you're essentially the terminator,
right, Like yeah, I meanbut that's any game where you're killing lots
of people. But right, butthere's a better way to do it in

(29:02):
the show that doesn't make it feelso plot armory, Like yeah, oh
yeah, definitely feels a little plotarmory, and like there's a lot of
bodies, like they don't they're reallyemphasizing like he has killed a lot of
people and probably not even all,even if you agree with his decision necessarily,
Yeah, and and and it's ina lot of ways it's Dave's ex

(29:22):
Joel, like he escapes and justkills everybody, like like you said,
like who knows, who knows whatfamilies those people had? Yeah, and
I mean they seem like half thosepeople are just chilling right this hospital been
like you know, like I justhear gunshots, Like I wish they had
given that seem some more weight,like even more weight than they gave it,
because it needs to be apparent thatJoel is not doing the right thing

(29:47):
by the fireflies again, right andwrong in this scenario, like at this
point, when the world's over rightwrong, you're fucking gone. Like that's
why it's like did he make theright call or the wrong call? Like,
guys, civilization's more or less alreadybeen destroyed. So how It's like
the thing with the alcohol, Likewhy do you care for fifteen year old
drinks a bottle of alcohol when there'sliteral monsters roaming the waste land. I

(30:07):
just have a hard time understand.You're never gonna let them live that one
down. I just doesn't it doesn'tmake any sense, does it? Does
it actually make sense? I mean, you still have like it's they still
have. It's not like they don'thave any rules in their little societies.
It's not like, yo, weshould all be shooting up Heroin at ten
or whatever just because the greater societydoesn't exist, Like there were some people

(30:27):
that had to have been like,oh, I'm sure there were, but
I don't know, like I couldstill see some general I mean there are
general rules like Fedra and Jackson waslike a well organized place, like kids
are going to school like by that, by that say, well why do
the kids need to go to school? Like, well, those people made
the decision to keep going on withsociety the way it was before. But
that is in and of itself achoice as well. Yeah, I ask

(30:49):
you, if you're if you're inthe post apocalypt are you going to go
live in a city with electricity andall that bullshit? Fuck? Yeah?
Why because I want electricity and Iwould not want to be anywhere near anybody
else. Fuck that. Everybody elseis a fucking everybody else is a liability.
They are they kind of are theykind of are in this society more

(31:11):
people are kind of a liability,all right, SVB. It's liabilities.
It's a balance sheet joke sympathy.But you know what I mean, like
other people kind of are a liability. Like, yeah, I get what
you're saying. I mean, itdepends obviously on like a well organized thing
like Jackson or is it just likerandom people living in a house here or
there. But like, yeah,if I could have Tommy set up,

(31:32):
I would definitely do that. Idon't know, like I understand where Joel's
coming from from, the idea oflike hanging on to vestiges of the old
society. Maybe aren't I don't know, like maybe in this it doesn't matter
here. Yeah, look, hemakes it as I understand why he makes
the decision he makes. I thinkthey give good enough job writing us up

(31:52):
into the edge and then jumping offthe cliff and the and I understand why
they jumped off the cliff and thedecision they made landed. And I reading
reviews of the show, and Idon't see anybody complaining about the ending.
They're complaining about other things, likethe rushed pace of the last two episodes
of the show. Yeah, andthis you could say is rush. Definitely,
I feel like less rushed than thelast episode. But I think that

(32:15):
to your point yet, Joel beingthis violent was a bit of a thing
that caught me a little off guard. But in the context of the themes
that the show has been subtly andvery not subtly, like the Bill and
Frank stuff putting in front of us, like about how important it is to
protect the ones you care about.Love will make us do things good and
bad. It all it makes sensethematically. It brings the whole story like

(32:37):
fully circle it just it does changeyour perception, well not for everyone watching
the show, but it does changethe perception of Joel. And I'm not
going to get into where I thinknext season is going to go, because
like I know the story of thesecond one, but like, let's get
I do want to get into itat some point because there's no guarantee it's
just going to tell the second game. No, but they did, Okay,
so Craig Mason and Neil Druckman didsay it's gonna follow a similar thing

(33:00):
where they're going to get the corestory from the game and then you know,
maybe spend more time with characters orother things off the beaten path,
but the core story, they say, it's going to be similar, but
they did say it's going to spanover multiple seasons, which I think you
and I spoke about. And theway the second game is structured probably makes
sense. It's aged a longer game, but the narrative structure also has like

(33:23):
a couple clear turning points where youcould see it. Probably I would imagine
two two seasons. You can maybedo it in three seasons, but one
season would be tough to tell thatstory. There's part of me that just
wants this to be it. Iknow it's not. I know we're getting
another season, but this is apretty good standalone season of TV, wouldn't

(33:45):
you say, even with the rushlast two episodes? Yeah, I mean,
well, the first game was supposedto be standalone, right, So,
like we know, it told essentialthe same story, and it was
satisfying in the fact that it's reallywell told, well made, well acted.
It gives us something new. Umleft me unsatisfied in the context of
I's like, damn, Joel's justgoing to get away with it? Huh

(34:06):
Um. I feel like, yeah, you feel that in the show.
So the second game is about likereckoning with with you know, the Joel's
actions, which you don't get inthe in the like playing off just the
first game you're just like, oh, this thing happens and he kinda like
just dooms manity and goes on withhis life, whereas the second game asked
the question is like, is like, you know, we learned about love,

(34:28):
this is like what our consequences oflike said love and selfishness blah blah
blah blah blah, and has thatimpact relationship. Um, that's the theme
of two well, and that enrageand revenge and anger and anger, and
that's and that's the thing that Istruggle with seeing how they're gonna get these
two actors to that point where theyare now like those two like it's either

(34:51):
going to have to be a veryslow burn, which is what I assume
they're going to do, or alot of ship's going to happen in the
in between time of now now andthe next time we see the show again.
But there will be a time jumpin that real lifetime period as well,
where they kind of again they haveto sow the seeds of and they
already have of. Ellie doesn't believeJoel Great. Now, where do we

(35:14):
go from here? We see that, Yeah, we see that, Yeah,
and where do we go from here? Is the question? Like that's
literally what you're left hanging with atthe end of the episode is Ellie saying
okay to Joel feeding her a bigbag of bullshit. And the thing is
she's saying okay in the context of, like, I love Joel and he
generally has, what's you know,in my best interests and I'll just go

(35:34):
along with this because why not oris it okay? Like something's off?
I don't trust him, you know. I mean, we'll see more of
that play out, and I thinkin the second game, Joel's bit actually
calmer, whereas like Ellie grows intomore of her own and becomes i think
more similar to Joel. It wasn'tthe first whatever like personality like what I'm
gonna just to see how that personalitydynamic plays. There's like a four or

(35:58):
five year gap in the game somethinglike that. There's there's a good chunk.
I don't know if theirs are gonnajump straight into that gap or we'll
have like episodes filling that information orjust having flashbacks, and there's a lot
of different ways they can take itwell. And I think that I'm really
I'm worried about the second and thirdseason of this show, as I know
you kind of are too, becauseit's just so fucking different in like a

(36:21):
way that like, I think eventhe people that are watching this show might
not appreciate like the people who arewatching the show that have never played the
game, because that is a thatis a large group of people, wouldn't
I don't think they would like thatsecond game anymore than a lot of the
people who played that second game did. Yeah, it'll be, it'll be,
It'll be interesting. I think Icould see the second season being maybe
a bit more traditional. But ifthe third season goes like how I think

(36:44):
you want to know how I woulddo the second season. I would have
the second season open and be onlyAbby and her pals the entire season,
and it ends where the game kindof has that hard bit. Yeah,
but you don't see Joel, youdon't see Ellie for the in entire season,
And that is how you make athird season of this show, like

(37:05):
the second half of the second gameactually matter, because all of a sudden
you see people you recognize, andthen you understand where this is going,
what are the stakes? Who arethe people? Because again, I don't
need to see Ellie and Joel againfor a while, frankly, because that
needs to sit and simmer on thestove and get to a boiling point of
its own again. Because it willand it does it, and what happens

(37:30):
with the characters in the second gameforce a reckoning with or without the characters
that are involved in a lot ofway. And I think that's I think
if if it's me and you doingthe show and someone's like, you have
to now you have to do thesecond season of this show, but it
has to be the second game,I would not adapt the second Game.
I just wouldn't. I would dosomething else entirely. I just would like

(37:51):
I just like just have like acompletely maybe maybe still have to be about
consequences, but in a different way. Yeah, like again, like do
you know what I mean? LikeI like Bellow Ramsey and Pedro Pascal a
lot together. I think they makean interesting dynamic together, and I mean
where the show is going there,they're in a lot of that left there's
it's it's a lot of characters doingthings on their own and other and other

(38:14):
machinations that are going on. Sothat's what I would do though, because
again, that second game is sotonally different, so narratively disjointed, that
you can split it up into twoseasons, maybe, like you said,
even three if you want to gocompletely, if they want to do like
everything, they want to just everythingin the second game, you probably could
do. I feel like that wouldbe a lot, but right, because

(38:36):
there are like whole sections in thatgame that would be like one episode and
that's it. Like, yeah,but you know, I think I think
it's nice that this is as goodas it is and it stands alone and
it does tell a whole complete story, and that when it ends, it
ends on that moment of uncertainty,not only for the characters, but also
for Ellie and Joel, the twoof them, because it's not just uncertainty

(39:00):
about where's the show going for usthe audience, but there's a level of
uncertainty with Ellie about her feelings towardsJoel, a character that we have seen
her fall in love with throughout theyou know, eight episode, eight episodes
up into this point. Yeah,um, I mean your thoughts on the
overall season and you're you liked it, You're in. I think the last

(39:21):
two episodes were the weakest part ofthe season overall. I think that the
last episode kind of it rushed throughits hard hitting climax, and not because
it wanted to, but because itjust didn't have enough time. Like it
they just ran out of time,is what it feels like. Like you
had ten hours to play the game, and you got nine and a half
hours in and you got to theclimax of thirty minutes left, and that's

(39:44):
all we gave you, Like,did you want more time in the hospital
or I don't know. I don'tknow. I think I wanted I think
I wanted them to give the stuff. Okay, And I've seen this complaint
a couple of times, and Ithink it's an interesting I'm going to complain
and critique it from a different action. I've seen people critiquing it as I'm
sure you have where they go,there weren't enough infected in the show.

(40:06):
There wasn't enough infected action. Here'swhere my directional kind of criticism would stem
from the decision that Joel makes.I understand why they get to that point
in the show and in the game, but in the game the infected feel
like a threat. In the show, they really don't, and they and
it's not. And it's not becausewe haven't had enough action scenes and shit,

(40:27):
but like post Kansas City, we'vehad very little. Yeah, we've
actually had what we had one inthis episode in the flashback with Ellie's mom.
That's it. But it's not aclicker but it's not any It's just
like a run of the mill infected. I don't think that the zombie show
needed more zombies. I fucking sawthat criticism and I my eyes rolled inside
of my head and did three sixtybecause it's like, a we've mentioned this

(40:52):
not a zombie show. Be ifyou're tuning in for that, that's not
the intent of the show runners atall. They've Craig amazing even like says
that multiple times. It's like there'sa lot of action in the game,
but like we couldn't find purposeful reasonsfor it in the show. I'm not
looking for more action, but Iam looking for you in the show telling
me why the decision Joel made doomseverybody when like the threat they're kind of

(41:15):
getting along just fine with with justmanaging it. We gave up the cities.
Oh no, like yeah, likelike it's not it's not nearly where
we are now. But it's it'slike enough people do have decent systems where
generally people are living okay lives ifyou're in one of the good Fedra places,
or you haven't have a Jackson situation, or you haven't have a cannibal

(41:36):
pastor potential pedophile leader, you know, right, I mean, and that's
and that's the thing. It's likeit depends on where you are, things
are good or bad anyways. Butthat's the way it is now, like
in real life, like I meanagain, like in a lot of ways.
All right. That's the that's theissue I have with this show and

(41:58):
the Infected is the decision that Joelmakes is meant to feel like this big
condemnation of humanity and a you know, a kind of pushing up on the
pedestal of love the one you're withand you know, worry about them and
don't worry about humanity, which againworks perfectly fine if you make me understand
the state humanity is in actually needingsomething that this threat is overwhelming. The

(42:22):
Infected are kind of just they're hangingout, like they make a point in
saying like, oh, clickers,you survive fighting a clicker, Like,
holy shit, these things are justlike killing people in right or no,
like or people just aren't seeing themlike again, like it's not made clear
in the show. I think it'sI think it's more for like before the
people had like the good wealth fortified, you know, because now people generally

(42:45):
have like these fortified areas, youknow, with walls and guards and stuff.
But if you're like just on yourown or you know, you're in
a place that has been overrun bythem, yeah, your situation is not
great. But it has been twentyyears, so these people do have like
these like pockets of like you know, we know their patterns and we can
generally protect ourselves with enough weapons andAMMO and stuff like that. But yes,

(43:05):
it is a lot of tell uswe don't really see it. We
see it in the first half ofthe series, but not really the second.
Yeah, I mean the most wesee with the infected is in Boston
with Tity well, but also inBoston with tests. Yeah, because they
fight the clickers. They fight theclickers in Boston, and then they fight
the bloater in Kansas City, whichnobody like mentions, Hey, wasn't that
fucking thing wild? That we've justspot Like nobody at any point is like,

(43:29):
hey, what about that thing thatripped that thus head apart? Like
where was any Like it's just weird, like the infected or kind of an
afterthought in a show where the decisionthat's made at the end of the story
is about the infected and like theirconsequences on the world, and like,
how are we surviving in a worldthat's so destroyed by these creatures? Oh,

(43:50):
we're kind of just hanging on,but we have a way to fix
it. And this guy fucking screwsall of us. Like there's less of
the we're just barely getting by partof this than I was expecting. And
I think that stems from a lackof the effect. That's fair. I
mean, that's it right, Likeand again, like that's an easy thing
to fix. I think Maze andDruckman said it as much in their like
post things. They were like,we're going to put more infected in the

(44:12):
second season, Like yeah, Ibet probably, yeah, And it makes
it Yeah, I get what you'resaying. You're saying, like we know
the infected are this like bad thingthat's scourge on humanity, but we haven't
spent enough time to really understand howshitty it is, so it makes Joel's
decision selfish. But like, wehaven't seen them in so long, we
almost forget that there's this persistent problembeyond just like living in a shitty house

(44:35):
or not having supplies. It's like, well, the reason we can't have
these things is because there's these fuckingmonsters everywhere, right, And there's like,
again, like the show does agood job of telling us that,
but it does not avail itself toshow us that. Yeah, and again,
like like we saw with the KansasCity kind of two episode little stint,
they have the and the infected wereunder control, and if you're there

(44:57):
and if they're focusing on keeping theinfected under control else where, it seems
like they can just keep them undercontrol. In Kansas City they were kind
of ignoring it, but other placesthey weren't. And so it's just I
don't know, It's just when Iwas reading those things about people complaining about
not enough action in the show,I was like, oh my god,
you you are just looking for thewrong thing. But again, I feel

(45:17):
like I'm kind of complaining about thesame thing. I just feel like it's
more of a like actual problem withthe show is that the infected need to
feel more like a threat, becausewe get it, the humans are bad,
Like that has been made abundantly clearin almost every episode of the show
that humans are not great in thisworld, but like, I would like
to see more of how the infectedare really an oppressive force that by Joel

(45:42):
dooming everybody, like you know,he's really dooming everybody, Like it just
doesn't seem like he's dooming everybody.It just seems like, oh, you're
just gonna have to continue to letlive shitty lives, but not like constantly
worrying about the infected coming in thenight murdering you, because like, I
don't know who's worrying about that inthis universe because we haven't seen them.
We've seen people worrying about like Billand Frank, we've seen them worrying about

(46:05):
raiders coming, but infected coming inthe night and breaking in Like there's none
of that. There's just the infectedare not the threat that the game makes
them out to be. And that'sbecause the game gives you twenty plus hours
of just fucking running around and sneakingaround and smashing bricks on their heads and
stabbing them with shives. And Iknow that that's hard to recreate in a
show, but some of that neededto be there just a little bit more,

(46:30):
just to give us an idea that, like, these are not just
some piss ass threat that nobody caresabout because that's what it feels like.
Yeah, yeah, no, totallymakes sense. What are your final thoughts
on the season at as a whole. Yeah, I mean every episode wasn't
perfect. I think there's there weresome issues and like pacing in later episodes,
and I think I agree a bitwith the clicker criticism. I don't

(46:53):
think we need a lot more,but a little bit more would have made
that threat a bit more real.Yeah, I mean this is a really
solid, well made show. Itwas I enjoyed every episode, like even
the bad as a bad episode's likewas like an enjoyable for even it's our
of Phoebe. You can tell alot of thought and like say love,

(47:13):
but reverence for the source material wentinto it. I mean, obviously you
have the director of the Game asone of the writers. And I'm really
looking I am looking forward to seasontwo. I think it's going to be
a much more challenging thing to adapt, but I have faith that the approach
that Neil Druckman and Craig Mason chooseis going to be one that will reward
when I use the word word rewardin a broadway, but will reward the

(47:38):
audience first sticking along and seeing whatthey do. And even if it just
ended up being one season, likeit was, it was a great season,
and it does leave you thinking andfeeling in a way where I think
a lot of other shows would justkind of wrap up, put a bow
on it, and you say,like, all right, we'll move on.
Like I'm thinking about the ending stilland I still have the same opinion

(47:58):
about it I did when I sawin twenty thirteen, but I think I
understand Joel a bit more and Ithink that's the sign of a good show.
I'm with you. I'm with you, and you know, as someone
who has been a video gamer sinceteen teen, being a teenager or earlier,
like I hope that this herald's inand we've talked about this a new
age of video game adaptations because peopleare gonna undoubtedly do it being done well

(48:23):
and right and with I would saythe loving care of someone like Craig Mason
and Neil Druckman, because yeah,Neil Druckman crafted the video game, but
Craig Mason and like, I thinkthe dude's obsessed with the Last of Us,
Like he makes it right, likethirteen times or something like that,
like yeah, like and good like. I as as as much as sometimes

(48:43):
I want to say, don't bethe guy who loves the thing that you're
working on. Sometimes that is thatis the right person, and that is
the correct person to take a projectlike this and turn it not from a
movie but into a TV show,because you know what, we can both
agree on. The movies ending wouldnot have had the impact that the show's
ending and the game's ending did.Yeah, it would have been more just

(49:06):
action movie like oh yeah, hekilled these people, cool like whatever that
would have been. The clickers andinfected that people wanted would have been in
the movie, just like gobs andgobs of them, Like, I'm glad
that this is a quiet character dramathat just happens to have some some monsters.
I was making jokes at the beginningof this show to people like,

(49:28):
oh, it's kind of just azombie show. You'll be fine. And
the first three episodes. That firstfour kind of are maybe not the third
episode, but the first and secondand fourth are. But after that fifth
episode, like nope, it's likesomething else entirely. Yeah, which is
again not bad. I'm not complainingabout it, but there are clearly people
that didn't resonate with the slower,more character driven parts of this show than

(49:52):
they did with the action and theintense gun play and whatever. Because again,
like I get it, but Idon't know. My hope is that
more video game things are as wellmade as this is, because this is
now, as far as I'm concerned, the high water mark for video game
stuff, at least in a longform narrative. Maybe not in a movie,

(50:13):
because again, I don't know ifthe best video game movie has come
out yet. I mean, wecould throw names out there, but I
think this is the best video gameadaptation period now. Like I mean,
I don't know if I'll stand forthis Mortal Kobat Annihilation erasure, but we
fucking got and you will die.I fucking that movie is such a wow

(50:34):
stunt. That Wow Wow. Iactually liked that movie. The Wow movie.
Wow. No, the Wow movie, Oh, well, I've seen
it. I thought it was fine. Fine, Yeah, I don't remember.
But remember how Duncan Jones directed thatmovie? No, I didn't remember.
Yes, he didn't direct that movie. He directed that and then he

(50:55):
directed Us. I loved Moon,but let's do that. I don't know.
Being David Bowie's son, do youhave to do more than that?
I don't know. Man Like videogame things just had the longest worst rap
since that Super Mario Brothers movie.And it kind of feels oddly ironic that
I would say, the best videogame adaptation to come out so far comes

(51:17):
out and finishes the same weekend thatthe Super Mario Brothers movie comes out.
So it's kind of an odd circularnous. But I'm hoping that The Last
of Us is now seen as thebeginning point in a new kind of a
new age of video game adaptations,because again, I don't care if they
adapt video games. It's not forme for them to adapt things. But

(51:40):
there is an audience for it,and there are plenty of people that will
never pick up a controller, thatwould love to see more of the stories
from video games put onto the screen. And you know, God of War
is coming, and so many otherthings are coming, and these are narrative
driven games, just like Last ofUs. So we'll see. I'm excited
this is This is a fun show. It was a good show, and

(52:01):
now I think we'll see ripples fromthis into the future of other things that
are as good or better than this. I hope there's I mean, I
hope that the God of War showis better than this. Like this is
a pretty high water mark, butlike that has an opportunity to be better.
There's plenty of things that can comeout in the next decade that could
be better than this, And maybethe second season of the show will be

(52:22):
better. That's not unheard of.That's not uncommon that the second season of
a show is even better than thefirst one. So I personally would like
to see the Last of Us twoadapted in a way that like really challenges
the audience, because I don't thinkthis season. I think the season left
you as an audience in a nicespot. Even if the ending is kind
of you're not ading to swallow it. It's challenging, but like, I

(52:45):
still think that it leaves the audiencewith like a more or less like happy
ending, at least it's Joel's happyending. So I would like to see
the next season and maybe third andpower. Many seasons actually really challenge the
audience and what they're expecting from fromTV shows. So I don't know,
and we don't know when that's comingout, folks, Just like the Game

(53:07):
of Thrones show, if you listento that show and now you're listening to
this one. We don't know whenwe're doing the next one of these.
Could be a year from now,could be probably two I would assume two
years. Yeah, I would atleast I would say at least eighteen months
before. I mean, if CraigMason is to be believed, he almost
died while filming the show, andlike his life was he was like devoted

(53:27):
to this, So give that mana break for like maybe a couple months.
Let that man live his life,and then he'll go back to being
obsessed with the Last of Us,which, hey, you know what great
so so yeah, so until thenext time you hear the Two of Us,
which, again, like I justmentioned, we don't know when that
will be. You can find theTwo of Us over at weirdingwaymedia dot com,
where this show and the other showwe did, Game of Brose House
the Dragon are airing. I wouldassume that that show is going to come

(53:51):
back before this one, So it'sjust safe to say though, we may
be doing miniseries back to back untilthese shows are over, given that they
kind of aired around the same time. So because what Game of Thrones only
finished up in December, right,Somber December? Yeah. Yeah, So
that's where you can find the twoof Us, And as always, you
can find this show wherever you getyour podcast like, rate and review the

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show, and if there's something tocheck in with, we'll check in.
But expect that the next time youhear us, we'll be talking about the
Last of Us Season two,