John Hangey, Rider Head Coach and NCAA Wrestling Rules Committee Chair - OTM665

Rider University head wrestling coach John Hangey goes On The Mat

Rider University head coach and NCAA Wrestling Rules Committee Chair John Hangey joins the program to discuss some of the recent rule changes coming to college wrestling. He also gives a perspective from a mid-major position on the transfer portal and NIL. Rider University is a Division I program in Lawrenceville, New Jersey and prior to Hangey ascending to the head coaching position, the program was lead by the late Gary Taylor for almost 40 years . Join Kyle Klingman and Andy Hamilton as they talk about the world of wrestling on the flagship podcast of Trackwrestling.com from FloSports.

Show Segments
0:35 - Andy’s into the Black Forest.
1:00 - Kyle goes into a baseball rant about perfect games.
2:45 - Why would anyone want to officiate?
3:45 - Witnessing the moment with Chance Marsteller over Jordan Burroughs.
7:15 - Naming the 2010 World Team to put Kyle on the spot.
9:50 - It was a good Final X. Breaking down the event.
21:40 - Cliff Keen Athletic.
22:25 - John Hangey Interview
1:04:30 - The Sergeant Duffel from Cliff Keen Athletic
1:05:30 - Show Recap

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hi. I'm Jason Bryant from theShort Time Wrestling podcast and founder of the
Matt Talk podcast Network. Shows onthe network are individually owned and operated,
and those opinions presented and expressed maynot reflect others, the sponsors, patrons,
or the parent network. Find moreshows about the greatest sport in the
world at the Matt Talk Podcast Networkat matt Talk online dot com. Welcome

(00:29):
to On the Mad sponsored by CliffKeen Athletic. I am Kyle Klingman,
joined by Andy black Forest Hamilton,and I am not happy. I'm not
happy right now and it's twelve years, thirteen years of anguish of why I'm
not happy. And nothing is moresacred to me in sport. It's my

(00:51):
favorite thing in sport is a perfectgame. And I caught on social media
reliving the Tigers getting a blown perfectgame and the umpire botched it. I'm
still mad about that. I don'tknow if you remember that thirteen years ago.
I think it happened June's second twentyten, and it still bothers me.

(01:11):
It bothered me at the time.I hadn't thought about it. Then
it got resurrected when I got Iwatched the highlight of it or low light,
and it's to me the worst call, because that is baseball immortality when
you pitch a perfect game, andmaybe someone who's in the weeds like you
are on baseball doesn't appreciate it asmuch as someone like me who just looks

(01:33):
at sport through the whole of baseballcompared to other sports. But there's been
I think it's twenty one in theWorld Series era have pitched a perfect game,
twenty seven up, twenty seven down. When David kne did it against
the Montreal Expos. A friend ofmine, Doug van Gelder, who used

(01:53):
to host this show, he hada VHS tape and I watched that five
times. And it's more fun towatch it in review because you know what's
coming. You know everything's going tobe an out, So it's fun to
hear what the announcers have to sayand how they're maybe predicting what the perfect
game might look like, or thatit might happen. Love the perfect,
perfect game and sad that Gallaraga didnot have his chance at a perfect game.

(02:19):
How long is this gonna eat atyou? You think it's probably going
to dissipate by tomorrow, if Iso, there's like thirteen yeah, shelf
life. I remember when it happened. I was, I was angry about
it, and it leads to whatI ultimately want to talk to with wrestling
is why would anyone want to bea referee or an official or an umpire

(02:43):
because those mistakes are going to happen. We're all human, we're fallible,
and I know there was some questioningon what happened at Final Acts, especially
as it related to the Jordan Borrow'sChance mars Sellar matches and went to the
full three. Every match had itscontroversies, but I felt like the referees

(03:04):
did a good job of just catchingtheir breath, going to the video review,
taking their time, and you canargue what the outcome was or is,
but I feel like in that situation, they did their due diligence.
So I'm happy they looked and tooksome reviews. It's better than the old
school era where you went in theback room and you weren't transparent. I

(03:27):
think the officials are trying to betransparent, whether you agree with the outcome
or not. Okay, I don'tknow if you felt that way. If
yeah, I know you you're abig Jordan Burrows fan, and it's hard
to watch someone who's really been thefigurehead for our sport since twenty eleven fall.
But it was interesting to me becauseI felt like there was more support

(03:50):
in the stands for Chance Marseller thanI anticipated. There were actually some booze
and some excitement there for Chance,And what it came from was that Chance,
who just had on the program afew weeks ago, had his club
there and to see them mob himwhen he made the team, it was
pretty cool. And so I feltlike some interesting moments came out of that

(04:11):
series that will stick with me whenI think back to the sport. I
think it's a I think it's acritical point in our sport or a moment
in our sport that we just gotto witness out in Newark, New Jersey.
It is definitely a moment. Youdidn't think it was a critical moment
or one that you'll remember or standout like a moment that is important to

(04:34):
wrestling history. I think I certainlythink it was. I mean, Marstell
was an amazing story. It isthat everything that like like the trajectory of
his career. You know, juniorhigh phenom going to compete in college tournaments
as a high school freshman and havingsome success at those and rising to when

(04:58):
four state titles in p and thenall of the pitfalls he encountered in college,
and this story could have turned outmuch differently for him, and know
for him to overcome all the obstaclesthat he has and turn into a guy
who is now shaping the lives ofyoung wrestlers in a positive way. I

(05:19):
think it's it's a tremendous story.And to do that while also making a
world team and beating a guy ascredentialed as Jordan Burrows amazing story. And
you really do have to give JordanBurrows all kinds of credit. So for
him to be one spot below thebest in the United States. And I

(05:43):
think Chance has a great chance ofmeddling at the World Championships. But he's
made every world team since he's beenon the circuit, didn't make the Olympics
and twenty twenty since Dake was there. But the consistency, the ability to
rise the occasion and then to becompetitive and beat in those matches. It's
not like he got blown out onthose matches. He was in the matches
and was right there and won aworld championship last year. But to see

(06:09):
a guy who's almost thirty five yearsold to do what he did, you
just my head spins and is amarvel over what Jordan Burrows has been able
to do. You can't speak enoughabout what he's done for the sport and
how he's been so consistent. AndI think the next year is going to
be interesting to see what he doesbecause Christian Piles did a video about it

(06:32):
about him moving down to seventy fourkilos. I know when we had him
on the podcast before the World Cuphe said, I am moving down to
seventy four kilos after I went aworld title and I need to pay back
Kyle Dake. And so does hemake the descent now? Does he entertain
the idea of retiring? Does hemove up to eighty six kilos? I

(06:54):
think a lots on the table,but it will be interesting to see what
Jordan Burrow was does here in thenext year or so. Can you name
the men's freestyle team the last timeJordan Burrows was not on it world team
at the twenty ten team. Twentyten team. Let's let's test your knowledge
right now, Kyle, you'd liketo put people on the spot. With

(07:15):
Obi Blanc on the team, Ithink you got Obi right. That's one.
That's fifty five kilos. I'll goup to one, twenty five Turvell
one twenty kilos one twenty At thetime, it was twenty ten. Tommy
Rowlands. No, uh, wun'tSteve Marko. It was not Steve Marko.

(07:38):
Zach Ray No, man, Uh, this is good. We can
circle back to it. Okay,twenty ten. I'm gonna go with Mike's
attic. That's sixty kilos. Sixtykilos was on the team? Did we
have seven weights? Correct? Okay, so sixty six kilos twenty ten?
Uh was asked, Was that JaredFreyer? It was not, okay,

(08:03):
Brent Metcalf correct, Okay. Metcalfwas on the team seventy four? Was
it seventy four at that time?Was seventy four? Okay, I'm gonna
go with uh. I don't knowright now, I'll skip that. I'm
gonna go Jake Herbert at eighty four. Eighty four, Okay? Is that

(08:28):
correct? That is correct? Okay? And then ninety six ninety six would
have been twenty ten. Uh.JD Bergman, you got it. I'm
impressed, Kyle. I don't knowhow I've been pro one out. I'm
disappointed in the seventy four Andrew Howemaybe, um was it uh before Burrows?

(08:54):
Okay? Was it Paulson? Itwas Travis Travis Paulson. And one
twenty five or one twenty I keepgoing back to that. Oh man,
it's it's disappointing that I can't pullthis one out. It is disappointing,
Yeah, because I was able toget all these one twenty five. Wasn't

(09:15):
Maco, wasn't Tommy Rowlands, wasn'tTrevelle, wasn't Zach Ray. He's a
four time national champion, four timenational champ. Uh huh oh yeah,
less sickly all right, I shouldhave known that because he beat Trevelle.
That year was the lone time sointeresting year and we'd had I think if

(09:37):
I remember right, Obi Bloch wasthe highest place Curtain night. I think
you're right, Okay, so right, and then Burrows won it and then
we had the string we had today. But it was it was a good
final X. Going back to whatwe just were talking about, the Burrows
and Chance Marseillar stands out. Butthe other guy that stands out out is

(10:00):
Vito Arugia. Holy cow. Ijust felt like Nashan Garrett gave him everything
he had. I think we sawthe best version we've ever seen of Garrett
and Veto stifled it all. Hegot scored on I think it was thirteen
ten, but he was able tokeep composed, and man, he's my

(10:20):
gold medal favorite at this point forsixty one kg. Is russelling really really
well this year? And I thinkthe thing with him is just consistency.
And asked him about this afterward,and he talked about how he's raised his
floor up, and I think,like, if you look at a year
ago, what was wild is hecame close to teching Pat Glory in the

(10:43):
EIWA finals, Oh yeah, andthen turns around and gets majored by him,
like yeah a week later, aweek and a half later the national
tournament. And so we'd always seelike these performances where you'd see the tremendous
upside, but then you'd have noother ones where it's like, how did
how did that guy that almost techPaglori turn around and get major by him,

(11:11):
you know, ten days later?And so I think what we've seen
from him is just a super highlevel of consistency this year, and man,
he's posted some incredible wins. I'lltell you this, if Sam Latona
went back to Alabama for the summer, he's walking into some resting rooms of
some street cred right now. Thatguy. Yeah, he's like, dude,

(11:33):
I'm the dude because I beat himand he gave him a competitive Nationals.
It's crazy. He just must havesomething that allows him to have his
number. I don't know what itis. It'd be fun to talk to
him about what psychologically goes into wrestlinghim, but he's competitive with him.
Had a win over him during thecollege season. But on the women's side,
Adeline Gray is back on a worldteam and she won it and matic

(12:00):
fashion in the first match was down. I'm gonna say it was a second.
She got the takedown over Kennedy Bladesright at the end one six to
five, and then was getting dominatedon the feet and then gets her bar
arm and gets a fall in thefinals against Kennedy Blade. So she's back.
It's her tenth world team, soshe's a six time world champion.
She's going to go for seven.And on the women's side too, it

(12:20):
just felt like the veterans proved thatthey are veterans. There was some young
talent coming up that you thought mightbe competitive or make their name known,
and that didn't happen. The worldmedalists, the world champions stifled all of
that. And really think we havea solid women's team going into Belgrade.
We don't know who's going to beat fifty seven kilograms, still have to

(12:43):
see Helen Maruleis and Sochimoda Pettus.Marules delayed that due to injury. We
don't know what the injury is,but time and date will be determined.
But we have nine members of ourwomen's team. I think we have a
solid men's freestyle team. I don'tsee much on the Greco side. I
don't know how maybe a medal.You could say Colton Schultz has been there

(13:05):
before, he might have a chance. Kamal Bay as dynamic, but that's
going to be probably the toughest weightclass. If I had to do the
over under on point five medals forthe Greco men's team, I'd probably picked
the under on that. I justdon't see it. I don't see where
they're going to get that. Butoptimism on both the men's freestyle on the
women's freestyle side, and like whatwe have coming up. Did it surprise

(13:28):
you that none of the young ladies, that the up and comers were able
to crack through against the veterans.Not really. I thought Katie Gomez would
be the one that could possibly winfinal acts just because of how she's looked,
and Don Parish had had the onewin since she won a World championship.

(13:48):
But Don went back to the drawingboard and she looked good in those
matches, really imposed her will,and I think we've seen a revitalized Don
Paris's I think back to that Worldchampionship for him. It took her a
little while to get there, butI think she's gonna do some good things
at the World Championships. And Ijust think we have a team that's been

(14:09):
there before, has a lot ofcredentials. Does it mean that you're gonna
go there and it's it's gonna playout. We look at the PanAm Championships
for the women's side, it didn'tgo well for them, but Kayle Miracle
looked improved. Duga Wachuku was comingon the scene, but absolutely just stayed
in position, stayed solid and lookedgood in those matches. We have some
new World teamers and Emma Bruntal andMacy Keilty. I think they're gonna do

(14:33):
some good things too. So Ithink we have a solid world team on
the women's side and some fresh faceson the men's side that gonna get their
first chance. Zane Richards beats aworld champion in Thomas Gilman. Didn't see
that coming, but it was clearthat Illinois game planned very well for Thomas
Gilman because that was a precise match. And when you win the first one,

(14:58):
you think Gilman's gonna come back andthere's no way it could happen again.
But it did, and Zane Richardson the team. Incredible story.
Twenty nine years old, first Worldteam and nobody was talking about Zane Richards
making that team this year. Andhe goes and wins the open. He
beats Nick Siriano a late takedown thereto put himself in this position, what

(15:22):
like thirty seconds to go needing toneeding to score to win that match,
and he does it. So tendto follow it up and be Gilman too
straight and hats off to Zane andthen a blood bath at seventy Kiloganderly,
Yeah, it was, and thatthose were fun to watch and got a

(15:43):
chance to really appreciate those two guysgoing at it. Kyle Dake is just
unbelievable. How do you score onthat guy? He's just so good defensively,
he really can impose his will dowhat he needs to do. So
he's back on another world team.And look, we're talking about these guys,

(16:03):
depending on how long they want tostay, that could get past that
John Smith threshold two of six rightnow, Kyle Dakes sitting at four,
Kyle Snyder's sitting at four, andit sounds like, at least on Kyle
Snyder's behalf, he wants to gotill forty five years old, So you
gotta think he's gonna knocking on thedoor to maybe get the all time record.
So we've got these guys bought inand they want to stay with it

(16:26):
long term. David Taylor, Ithink some people thought Aaron Brooks could be
competitive, got that takedown, lookedgood in that match in certain spots.
But David Taylor, he just keepsgetting better. This guy's next level.
And when you have someone as goodas Yaz Donnie and he's able to win
over someone who's at an exceedingly highlevel and then be a next level higher

(16:48):
than yas Donnie. Kyle Dake tome, has a special place in US
wrestling history. Really, no onelike him. Jeez. You think about
his career, I mean, whatnot making his first world team until twenty
eighteen, and so what is heat twenty seven at that point? I
mean we just talked about Zane Richards, but obviously, like Dacon Taylor,

(17:12):
took him a long time to makea team just because of who was in
front of him, and credential wise, are really starting to pilot up.
Now? Does Kyle Dake have thegreatest hit list in US history? When
you think about who he's beat,He's Beaten Burrows, He's Beaten Taylor,
He's beatn Jaden Cox, and Ithink there's one more I'm missing him.

(17:33):
But you look up there, especiallyat the uh the panel, when you
look at that, Kyle Dake wrestledfour of those people when we had that
press conference, and he has winsover all of them. Kyle Dake.
Uh, it's just incredible what he'sbeen able to do and the people he's
been able to beat. Yeah,Yeah, it's Uh, I think kind
of in some ways kind of quietlygone about this because of like, like,

(17:59):
look what you mentioned twenty ten whenwhen the last team when we talked
about that, the last team beforeBurrows, and then Burrows is like at
the forefront, right, and sohe's he's starting to pile up up the
titles. By the time Dake makesa team and then you've got you know,
you've got Snyder, it's got multipletitles by the time Dake does,

(18:23):
Um, you know, we've gota whole crop of multi time world champions
right now. And you know,Kyle Dake just kind of fits into the
crowd. And then he stepped backand look at it now and the numbers,
like I said, they're starting topile up. And I think maybe
in some ways we've kind of underappreciatedhis greatness because of the fact that we've

(18:45):
got so much depth in the system. But man, it's um, it's
pretty impressive. We're going to talkabout ninety seven kilos. Wait wait a
minute though, before we skip over, and I want to make a point
about ninety two and ze head,how about the fact we got three World
teamers who jumped up in weight classesafter the open. That's pretty incredible,
it is. I it seems nowwhen you think about it, it's a

(19:10):
it's a good formula that you're gonnaget your best team with this format and
zahe'd And we saw that on thewomen's side too, where they switch weights
and they looked better than ever.Jen Page moves down to fifty nine.
Everbrunte moves up to sixty eight,and they looked phenomenal at the World Team
trials, look good at the FinalX. And we saw it here with

(19:33):
the men's Festales side where guys aremoving up and doing well. With that
scenario ninety seven, interesting situation again, we saw a walkover for Kyle Snyder
because Jaden Cox got injured. Itsounds like he either someone fell on him,
tripped on the mat, something happenedthere. Feel terrible for him because

(19:56):
I think that was the matchup thateveryone and wanted to see two world champs
going at it. That did notmaterialize, But Kyle Snyder on another team
didn't have to take the wear andtear to do it. But I think
we missed out on an opportunity tosee a great series between those two athletes.
Yeah, I no doubt about it. And at heavyweight man Gable.

(20:19):
Steveson's next level too. This guy'sWe've never seen a heavyweight like him in
the world, and I'm glad thathe's he's back and then we get to
enjoy him again. It sounds likehe's considering coming back to the Nervous of
Minnesota to win another NCAA championship,so we'll see how that transpires. Andy.
Any final thoughts on Final X beforewe get to a topic which we've

(20:41):
neglected because we're going to talk extensivelywith John Haine at Writer University about rule
changes in college wrestling. Any finalthoughts, Well, I don't know that
we touched upon Sarah Hildebrand a wholelot there, but she has no outscored
our opponents of Final X. Ithink it's like sixty four to zero throughout

(21:06):
her career. Sixty five to zero, sixty four in eight matches. That's
pretty incredible, it is. Yeah, she interesting with that. She's so
good at the leg lace and shedidn't score any points on Audrey Himenez on
the leg lace, so got alltakedowns, but look solid in that one,
eight zero and ten to zero,So keeps that streak alive of not

(21:29):
getting scored on at Final X,so certainly want to give her credit for
that, and we want to givecredit to Cliff Keen Athletic. They're the
sponsor of the show. Let's hearfrom them. Then we'll be back with
John Hanje of Writer University after thisget into the freestyle, Greco and club
wrestling seasons with some new uniforms fromCliff Keen. Cliff Keene has everything you
need to hit the mats, fromsink let's head gear and warmups to kneepads

(21:52):
and workout gear. Don't forget onthe mat. Subscribers can also save big
at cliff Keen dot com. Goto Cliff Keene dot com and use coupon
code on the mat at checkout andtake twenty percent off your order. You
heard that right. Coupon code onthe mat gets you twenty percent off and
there is no deadline to order foron the matt listeners just go to www

(22:15):
dot Cliff Keene dot com and clickshop Wrestling. Our guest is John Hanjy.
He is the head wrestling coach atWriter University. Also finished fourth place
at the nineteen ninety three NCAA Championshipsfor Writer under the guidance of Gary Taylor.
John, how are you. I'mgood. Thanks. That seems like

(22:37):
an awfully long time ago. Well, we're going to test your minute.
We are going to test your memoryon this. There were three Olympians in
your bracket in the ninety three nationals? Can you name all three? Henderson
from Arizona State, Um McCoy frompen State, and shoot, I don't

(23:00):
know the other one this, Yeah, it wasn't his normal weight class.
M hm, I don't remember theother one. His name is Less Gutchess
from Oregon State. Oh, yeah, I forgot Less. He's in there
yep. And then freshman, wasn'the here was a freshman yep? Didn't
place, and then he won twonational championships after that at seventy seven.

(23:22):
He's odd to see that Less Gutchesdidn't place, doesn't it as Yeah,
For as good as he is andall the stories you hear about last he
was unbelievable. Yeah, I'm justglad I didn't have to wrestle on that
day for sure. Who's the toughestguy you wrestled in college? Either Eric
Bulker or Joel shar Really I wrestledbecause back in the day, if you

(23:45):
remember that Matttown tournament was ridiculously insaneand it was a one day tournament.
Um. I also wrestled Chris Barnesat that same tournament one year, so
I wrestled Barnes Vulker both at theU. I wrestled Barnes, Bulker,
McCoy ruple um all of the Macdowntournament at one point in a four year
span. That's some strong work.That's that's in. Volker was just massive

(24:11):
and strong and quick and he justyou know, he was like playing with
his little brother, you know,and just beating me up. And then
uh Joel Sharrett was probably the youknow, the strongest. When I was
a senior, I thought I waspretty good and uh man, he was
just hard to move um and hewas just as athletic as he was strong.
So he was there. There's theone that stand out the most for

(24:32):
me going back to that. Didyou catch wind of what was happening in
the Midwest with Iowa, Iowa State, at Oklahoma State at Oklahoma those programs?
And the reason I ask is becausethere was the famous Brooks Simpson pen
over Eric Volker when he was theNSA champion in Iowa State was going to
be in Iowa in nineteen eighty eight. Did you catch wind to those kind
of duels? Um a little bit? But it wasn't you know, right

(24:56):
away, because it wasn't the wayit is now obviously, so I have
to wait till Amateur Wrestling News cameout, yeah, in order to get
those. But Coach Taylor would keepus all, you know, in the
loop on what was going around thenation and stuff like that, and obviously
I would look at my weight classand just see who was doing what and
all that stuff. So it wasit was definitely fun to watch and follow
that. You mentioned Gary Taylor,and we can always talk about Gary Taylor,

(25:19):
but just again remembrances of him.He passed away a couple of years
ago. But what kind of coachwas he and what influence did he have
on your life and continues to have. Well, it's it's endless, to
be honest with you, the typeof influence he had on me. There's
things that I do every day thathe purposely instilled in me. And he

(25:45):
was like a second father to me. I was doing I was doing a
luncheon on campus and everything I broughtup as soon as I mentioned what I
was talking about, I said,Coach Taylor taught me that. So everything
I was sharing was just passed downfrom him as a mentor, as a

(26:07):
second dad, as a wrestling coaches, as you know, as everything.
And I mean, it's hard toput into words the value that he's what
he's taught me, in the valuethat I've gained from him. And there's
not a day that goes by thatI don't do something that he taught me.
You hear that a lot when peopletalk about an influential coach or a

(26:29):
figure. They'll say it was likea second father. What does that mean
to you? Well, growing up, my dad was tough and had high
expectations for me behavioral wise, youknow, success wise, just being a
kid whatever. Character wise, Garyhad the same standards, and you knew
that it didn't matter that you werethe greatest wrestler or not. You had

(26:52):
to be a good character. Youhad to make sure you were accountable for
your actions. You had to makesure that you were representing the program,
yourself, your family, and yourcoaches at the highest level. So he
treated you like you know, helaid a platform for you to be successful,
but had expectations that you were youcould meet easily. You just had

(27:14):
to do the right things. Andand he did it on a daily basis
and never changed and was always thesame person, so you knew what you
were going to get every day,and the guidance was something you've learned to
lean on, and you learned.You know, even now that he's gone,
you still learn to lean on it. So can that Gary Taylor type
coaching, the way your dad approachedparenting. Can that work in today's society

(27:40):
at a small school. Yes,I don't know that it can work at
a big school because it's it's differentvariables for those guys at the big power
fives and all that stuff. BecauseI always say it in our recruiting spiel
Fields, we treat it like afamily business because that's how I learned it,
and we still have success doing ittoday. And people come to Writer

(28:00):
because that's how we that's how weoperate, that's how we you know,
sell them on it, and that'swhen they come here they find out that
it's true. But the Power fiveshave a harder time because it's, you
know, it's a result driven businessat times. I'm fortunate enough to have
a legacy here a little bit becauseI went to school here, I've coached

(28:21):
here, and now I'm the headcoach, so it's it's different. But
if you're in a Power five,there's times you want to do that,
but you probably can't because your adsbreathing over your shoulder, they lum nice
breathing over your shoulder, and it'sit's a little bit more difficult to maintain
that the entire time. So like, I can stick with a kid that
maybe lost seven or eight matches ina row, where they may not be
able to because you know the pressureis coming from external sources. So yes,

(28:45):
you can do it, but Ithink it's got to be done at
a smaller mid major school. Whatdo you think of the transfer portal.
I think it's dangerous. I thinkit's going to separate the haves and the
have not further. For instance,every time there's a quality kid that goes
into a transfer into the portal,they most likely already have the school that

(29:11):
they're deciding to go to, orit's least down to two or three,
and then when the nils go intoit, I don't even stand a chance
because we're trying to build the wrestlingroom and renovate our wrestling room and name
it after Gary Taylor with donations andstuff. If I decide to take money
from that and given a ni Lto an individual, now I'm hurting the

(29:33):
rest of the team at a smallschool and it just doesn't go over very
well with my team and my university, my administrators and things like that.
So, but the big schools havethose donors that can just end the money
over and then so that basically I'mnot in the equation on those marquee transfers.
Ever, how does that chat that'sa concern? How does that work

(29:56):
with NIL? Now? Do youhave athletes approaching you saying, coach,
I want some money and if Idon't, I'm going to transfer kind of
take us through what the dynamic islike the last couple of years. Now,
Well, I per say, Ihave not had anybody come to me
and say that, but I knowthat it's happened, and it's it's a

(30:19):
tough situation for a coach to bein because you're not allowed to be involved
in the conversation. You know,you're not allowed to facilitate niils. You
got to direct them to their parentsand to you know, potential business people
outside of the university donors potentially,but it's not something that you know,
if the way we look at it, if I get a kid that good

(30:41):
that early in his career, thenhe should take the money and go somewhere
else if it's better for him andhis family. It's gonna stink for my
program. But at the same time, then it looks pretty good on my
part that I was able to developa kid that level of at the schools,
you know, the bigger schools,the power vibes wanted it to kind
of coach himself or to speak,so you got to spin it that way.

(31:02):
But I you know, right now, we haven't had that situation,
so I'm kind of fortunate with that. Does the goal post oh sure,
well, does the standard for theprogram not standard? But do the goals
shift and force you to look atthe program differently and say, we're going
to approach it this way, andthese are the goals of the program because

(31:23):
we can't compete. Uh no,um, because we will compete. We'll
get our kids to compete because wehave a pretty good track record. I
had a pretty good mentor to taughtme how to run a program at a
small school and how to be successfulon a national level, because that's in
the brick and mortar at this programum and it hasn't changed, you know,

(31:48):
the philosophy has has just been enhanced, uh, you know with different
things that we're trying to do.But no, it hasn't changed anything.
We're just trying to make our kidsgrow, develop, put in time and
reap the benefits of their hard workand you know, get where they want
to go. And if it happensto lead them to an NIL deal to
a bigger school, and so beit. So but no, it hasn't

(32:10):
changed, you know, our way. You know, we're still doing our
business the way we do it andwe're still you know, putting everything we
have into the kids and we're doingit right by them. What's your experience
and what's true and false? WithNIL? You get on social media and
it's a cesspool of nonsense and youhear numbers and figures and things happening.
What do you think's real and whatdo you think's false? It's hard to

(32:34):
tell, but that's cesspool and nonsenseis a great description for that whole social
media stuff. But it's it's toughto tell. Because okay, did Shane
Griffith or you know, those kidsare transferred from Northwestern to Michigan get three
hundred thousand dollars in the nil whoknows? Um, you know, it's
it's a it's a soap opera usso to speak. For that to buy

(32:55):
in, and that's a very nicehook. Get people to say, oh,
well, actual's happened. And thisis you know, people are saying,
well, they're getting the money,and then they aren't. They are
on the scholarship from the school.So now they're getting more than nine point
nine scholarships. But nobody knows thatthat's true or not, because I'm sure
the NCAACS it's all going on andthey have to monitor at some level.

(33:16):
So you know, you gotta takeit for what it's worth. You just
gotta The biggest thing yet that Iwas always taught is don't look outside.
Just do what is right for youand your kids and your program, and
things will fall the way they're supposedto fall. Coach Taylor never worried about
anybody else what they were doing.He was always on board with what was

(33:37):
right with the program. And that'sexactly the path we're taking. We're also
taking a new path with some rulechanges that you are a part of.
They passed thirteen of fourteen of theproposed rule changes. You're on the rules
committee. Let's go through that andsome of the behind the scenes conversations.
What precipitated this and why the rulescommittee felt like there was a need for

(33:59):
this kind of change. I thinkwe were to the point where we have
a very very good product. Thewrestling is better than it's been in you
know, forever, and these athletesthese days are just unbelievable at what they
can do and how they can adapt, and and we wanted the sport.

(34:22):
We felt that the sport might beturning into a take you down and hold
you down sport, and we wantedto make sure that we were keeping it
at three position sport with top bottomin neutral. We didn't want to just
drift towards freestyle and make it allneutral, So we wanted to make sure
we maintain that three position sport.But at the same time, we needed

(34:44):
to add some exciting scoring opportunities tothe wrestling. And that's why the three
point takedown came up. Because wego through all these proposals, there was
probably you know, I don't know. There was probably seventy five or so
we're on the docket when we gotinto the meeting room and we had to
go through every single water but themand we could give each one the equal

(35:06):
you know, attention, And thenwhen we got to this one, it
was a proposal that the first takedownwould be worth three points and the rest
were two. And my immediate reactionto that was, well, it can't
be both, because we already havetwo definitions for a takedown with a hand
touch and then a regular takedown.So we felt either all had to stay

(35:30):
two or all had to move tothree. And the conversation just completely shifted
Joe three point takedown and it wasfound immediate approval from everybody in the room
because and then we started, youknow, making sure we had to take
our time to due diligence through theprocess, and then we started doing them.
That if you got the old rulestwo takedowns to one and two escapes,

(35:54):
that's four four, But yet youhave more takedowns than the other guy
that you're still tied. The newrule, it's two takedowns to one with
two escapes, and now it's sixto five, so you should have a
slight advantage having one more takedown thanthat other opponent. And that's kind of
where our thought process led us to. You know, everybody saying, well,

(36:14):
now at seven points that you gettaken down and you get turned for
four, Well, it was onlysix last year. It's not like it
was three last year now at seven. So it was only six now at
seven, and kids adapt, sowe wanted to make sure that it was.
We didn't want people to take somebodydown, ride the ankle, held

(36:35):
the hips and just be boring wrestling. We wanted to see more actions,
We wanted to see more scoring.We want nine to seven final matches.
We want ten to nine final matchesin the Mtuba tournament. So that was
kind of our thought process where wewere in there on the room on that
on that particular rule John, theone that got struck down, the turning
point, the stipulation that you mustscore near fall in order to get a

(36:59):
writing time point. Why didn't thatgo through originally? It did? We
approved it originally, but then wedo a a two week review process.
We send it all back to thecoaches, to the administrators, to the
officials, and we get responses backand then we had another follow up meeting

(37:20):
as a committee, and we wetook all the comments and thought about them
and gave them somecere thought and listenedto him. And then there was reservation
in the group. And as soonas there's a reservation in the group,
you have to have a already tomove it forward. So we weren't.
We weren't there, and we feltthat it was best to not even move

(37:42):
it forward to prop so that wouldnever even made it past our committee.
But for all the right reasons,because we listened to the masses, and
that's the key m We threw anidea out there, we thought maybe it
would help. There was too muchconcern, so we decided that we would
retract it, pull it back,and we did not move forward with that
one. What were the reservations there? We felt that it was so our

(38:08):
initial thing was to make it keepit a three position sport. We felt
after listening and hearing and talking toeverybody, that it made drift to a
neutral sport. We were afraid thatpeople wouldn't try to turn to get that
writing time point, they would justcut to the three point takedown. So
we want we did not want writingtime to go away. We wanted to

(38:30):
make it you have to work forit a little bit, not just ride.
That's why we changed the definition ofstalling or excuse me on the offensive
wrestler on top, not to justbreak it down, but to work for
a fall and work for back points. So they'll emphasize stalling a little bit
different on top, but that won'tdeter you from staying on top. Whereas

(38:50):
we felt with all the concern andthe points that were shared with us,
that it might turn into a neutralsport, and that was what we did
not want regarding the three point takedown. When you finally make that rule change
and it is implemented, did youknow in your mind that people might lose
their minds like Shane Sparks did ofthe Big Tent Network, because he absolutely

(39:15):
flipped a lid. Were you readyfor that? I was? I was?
I was, because you know,with any anything that's new and a
change and a drastic change of thisnature. For how long did the takedown
into two points in the sixties?Maybe something like that, maybe longer?
Oh yeah, so those traditionalists,but we're trying to grow the sport,

(39:36):
and I think that that was aninitiative that can do just that, and
I get it. Look, peoplewere tagging me on Twitter and doing all
sorts of stuff, and they're entitledto that opinion. But what'd you call
it? A cesspool? What wasthat cesspool of nonsense? Sesspool of nonsense?

(39:57):
So I didn't read most of itbecause what's it gonna do. It
doesn't change anything, It doesn't matteranything, you know, And I appreciate
their opinions. But at the sametime, we went through a very detailed,
deliberate process to get to that point. And it's not like it was
just my idea. It was agroup of people with administrators, with officials
that thought this was a great ideafor the support of wrestling to move forward

(40:21):
and enhance the overall sport, notjust for the traditionals fans, but also
for the layman fans and to tryto attract more fans. So I just,
did you know, at the endof the day, you just have
to turn a blind eye to thatstuff and just, you know, hope
that they come around and because theylove wrestling and they'll support it at the
very end of the day. Didyou have college coaches contact you directly about

(40:45):
the rule changes? A couple acouple. But there, you know,
frond of the conversations, there wasn'tanything you know, negative or anything like
that. They were just sharing theiropinions and they were doing it professionally,
So I was listening. I wasI wanted to hear what they had to
say because they're in it invested justlike I am. So um, and

(41:06):
then I would just you know,offer you know, things like well why
not make it three points? Well, but they're like they didn't have an
argument on their end as much asthey thought they did. Um, So
it was I said, look,it's a it's a thing we can try,
and it's gonna grow the sport.But how's it gonna grow the sports?
It's gonna make it more exciting?Well, how's gonna because you're gonna

(41:27):
get three points for a takedown.So they just they were very total visioned
on their thought across this. Butthey're entitled to that. And yet at
the same time, they were veryopen to listening to the conversation. So
it was it was. It wasa few, but they were good conversations.
We'll put it that way. Therule change that I think will change
the course of Kyle addressing the mostis that an injury default, not an

(41:51):
injury default, but a medical forfeitduring a tournament is now a loss.
How did you come to that conclusionand how do you think that's going to
impact the sport moving forward. Well, college coaches are crafty. They're gonna
figure they're gonna read the role,they're gonna figure out how it can help
their team, and they're gonna manipulateit to the nth degree of the rule.
Okay, so it's very important howthe rules written. But that became

(42:16):
a very gaming situation for seating foryou know, quad eye injuries, because
it wasn't for real injuries. That'san injury default most most of the time.
But people I did it at theconversernam because it was it was by
the rule you could do it.I McKenzie bell are forty one pound,
They're lost early in the tournament.I couldn't get his head back into the

(42:39):
tournament. I said, I'm gonnapull you out of the tournament. You're
not gonna have another loss, andwe're gonna take our chances at the at
large pool. Fortunately he got abid. But that was happening at preseason
tournaments. That was happening in opentournaments. People were going to tournaments getting
two wins and then bolting out ofthe tournament. So it was being manipulated

(43:04):
to the benefit of the student athlete, but it was being manipulated where it
was hurting the sport. And Ithink now, if you enter a tournament
and you wrestle your first match andyou medical forfeit the next one, that's
a first loss. That's going tohelp. And Anthony Holman was ecstatic that
we approved that rule because it helpshis process for his group as the seating

(43:27):
in the selection process. John thereseems to be some confusion over what exactly
the ankle ride rule is the changethat was made there can can you clarify
is that is that hand on ankle? Is it any kind of sitting on
the ankle? What what exactly didyou guys do with the ankle ride?

(43:49):
Well, we did we didn't reallyaddress the sitting on the ankle because that's
that's the emphasis that we're going tohave put the emphasis on that referees for
that. It's anytime you grasp thenso that's a hand grass. So we
met last year again there was twodifferent rules. It was called two different
ways you could do a tightwaist inan ankle and it was a five second

(44:10):
count. Immediately, you could havea cross body legging and grab an ankle
and it was not a five secondrule at all. So we said,
anytime you grasped the ankle, it'sa five second count. Automatically with a
hand. We couldn't address that becausewe couldn't figure out how to address the
ankle sitting on it. So that'sgoing to have to be a point of
emphasis on whoever the new coordinator NationalCoordinate officials is. It's going to have

(44:36):
to be an emphasis on them toteach the masses on how to call that,
because now the definition of stalling inthe book is different and we're looking
for that action on top, notjust writing. So hopefully that gets lumped
into that, but it's not necessarilya part of the rule of grasping.

(44:57):
So does that help? Yeah?Yeah, I guess another part that too
is, uh, top wrestler orbottom wrestler comes up. Top wrestler drops
to a single leg and has theankle. There is that account now too,
Did he drop back to his kneesor is he gonna have his steed
still on his feet so that onlyhe runs him out a bounds and then

(45:19):
he's got an attempt to return himto the mat. So again the emphasis
is going to be placed and theofficials to make sure that if he just
every time he stands up, ifit's repetitive action, he's lifting the knee
up or lifting the leg up,getting to the ankle, and just walk
him around and push him out.Amount that's stalling. And we had long,
long conversations on all those type ofscenarios and situations that that is going

(45:40):
to be in the casebook and that'sgoing to be called stalling. How about
video review? A couple changes thereare? What are those changes and how
do you think that's going to makethe wrestling product look different? I think
it's a great rule because it yearspast. If if a situation or a

(46:02):
position, or a takedown or reversal, whatever the scenario may be, was
challenged, anything after that challenge ofthat takedown will say anything beyond that was
as if it didn't happen, andthat's never a good thing. If wrestling
occurred, you should score the wrestlingthat occurred. So now it's a sequence.

(46:27):
So if a takedown gets called prematurelyor it gets called wrong and then
there's a reversal, that takedown couldget taken away and the reversal could be
considered a takedown now, so insteadof it being too too it could be
too nothing for the guy that gotthe reversal, which was now a takedown.
So I think it's good for wrestling, because again, if wrestling occurs,

(46:47):
it should be scored. But itwasn't the case up until now,
and now it's got and we usedthe freestyle, so it's a sequence,
it's a it's a you know,it's an ability to score everything that happened
during the action and reward the kidsor the athletes for for you know,
wrestling the way they they're taught to. On the whole, do you like

(47:12):
video review? Say it again,on the whole? Do you like video
review? I do? I dobecause I like the independent part of it
too. If you have an independentreviewer, it makes it easier because then
the officials are off the hook alittle bit. But he gets it right.
And you know, the kids boretheir heart and soul into this sport
and to their their efforts, andthey deserve the calls to go right,

(47:36):
whether it goes for them or not, they deserve the calls to be right
and are accurately reviewed so that they'reas close to accurate that they can be
in close to correct as they canbe. But I do like the video
review. How do the new weighend procedures affect things going back? I
think they went to one hour weighends after the deaths of those three wrestlers
in the ninety seven ninety eight era, and then they added seven pounds.

(47:59):
Now all it goes to two hoursinstead of one. Do you think that's
going to help the product? Ithink it's a big step forward, especially
that we had the Committee on Safeguardsagree with us for the first time since
those three athletes passed away. Butthe premise behind it was, okay,

(48:21):
so we can start at any weightwe want. We can started anywhere from
twenty five to everywhere, but mostschools start at twenty five because we're traditionalists.
So the twenty five pounder has toweigh in. Let's to drink something,
to eat something really light, putus shoes on, get dressed and
warm up, and then wrestle.Well, this gives them a little bit
of time to rest, relax,eat, then get dressed. You know,

(48:44):
it's just a little bit more humaneon part of the little guys,
the lightweights, and I think that'sonly fair, and I think it's not
going to change us to drastic weightloss measures because it's only two hours,
and we do two hours now fortournaments, so you don't see those those
way in to alter the performance atall. In fact, some of those

(49:05):
tournaments kids are feeling better in theirfirst matches because they have a little bit
more recovery time. Um, butthere still won't be I don't think there'll
be any drastic illegal measures done becauseof the two hours. I think it'll
be. I think it'll be actuallymake a better product for duel meets and
wrestling overall. John One of thebig frustrations that I heard from college coaches

(49:30):
after the twenty twenty one season wasthe edge of the mat stuff. And
I don't seem to think it's beenas maybe as inconsistently called on whether it's
it's a stall call or whether it'saction. I feel like officials have done
a little bit better job of that, but there still seems to be some
frustration amongst coaches. How close didthat get to action being taken there?

(49:58):
We discussed it at length, butit never really got because people are like,
well, just making a step outrule. I said, well,
you can't, because that rule isactually enhanced the support of wrestling tremendously with
the one supporting point of any athleteout of bounds. It extended the wrestling
area. It allows you to finishsituational wrestling anywhere on the edge. The

(50:21):
issue was when it first came out, they were calling backing out all the
time. Then they shifted it andthey started calling action all the time.
Well, then kids started seeing thatI can push you out and I'm still
not getting called. And you'll seethat on top wrestling, two people would
run you out of bounds on areattack double and that get called for stelling

(50:44):
like four or five times in arow. Well, the neutral out of
bounds rule, if called properly,is a good rule, and I think
it's done. It just has tobe educated amongst the officials. So the
new national coordinator officials has to makesure he does his job passing it down.
But we didn't feel like we hada solution that may have fixed that

(51:07):
rule. So we did not alterthat rule because we didn't want to muddy
the water, so to speak.Because we can clean it up. We
thought we could clean it up withjust a bunch of education, and that's
that's really where we landed with that. I'm going to read this verbatim from
Andy's article so he doesn't think I'mplagiarizing. But officials can now let action
continue after penalizing an illegal hold andnot require a stoppage after imminent scoring finishes.

(51:31):
When the safety of wrestlers is notin danger. Interpret that for us.
So if there's an illegal hold,it's just like the locked hands rule.
Locked hands was always they'd let theaction continue a little bit if there
was locked hands because none of theneither athlete was in danger of being injured.

(51:52):
So we took that mentality of thatspecific situation and applied it to all
illegal holds. If each alete,neither athlete is in danger of being injured,
there to let the action continue throughthe illegal hold and just a ward
thellegal point to the wrestler that didnot do it, and then let the
wrestling continue as long as there's noharm of injury to either athlete. And

(52:15):
that's that's a good rule because somany times there's stoppages and there was an
imminent scoring about to happen that youknow you're taking away scoring opportunities from an
athlete, and neither one of themwere in danger of being hurt, So
you want to let that action continue, you said, I think something like
seventy five proposals you guys sorted through, and I'm sure there's just tons and

(52:35):
tons of feedback that you get fromyour peers. John, what's the most
radical idea that you heard that thatmade you stop and think a little bit
that you hadn't thought of. MI'm sure that that was there was one
when I got it, but I'vebeen so focused on these fourteen and thirteen
that I almost forget what the hectorwere. Um. Well, every year

(53:02):
the head gear comes up and thatgets squashed right away to get rid of
the head gear. Um, thanksoh um told me scoring. Um,
So if you beat me nine tothree in a match in the dool Meet,

(53:22):
your team gets nine points, myteam gets three, and make fool
meats more like basketball games like onehundred and ten to ninety eight. Sure.
Yeah, that's an interesting concept.That's music. That's music to our
ears. Because Kyle and I havebeen banging the drum for cumulative scoring on
on dual meats for probably close tofive years. Now. Yeah, we

(53:45):
did not move move on that one, but it has some real merit to
it. Um to the point whereeven if you still have some you know,
things to figure out with it,because if you get a fall still
get you get ten points, youget six points, you still get the
points you had before the fall um, you know. So there's lots of
things to work out. But it'sit's in today's society that's like the three

(54:08):
point takedown was so like valuable Ithink to the sport because it's going to
increase scoring and people want scoring,they want numbers on the scoreboard, and
if you do that type of scoringin a duel meat, you might just
draw more fans. Yeah. Ithink one of the big examples for us
is like that we bring up timeand again as a couple of things.

(54:29):
You know, you you beat somebodyseven zero and you get you get the
same reward as somebody that wins bya second or riding time. You know.
And then the other thing too islike thinking back to that Penn State
Ohio State duel you know a fewyears back where where Kyle Snyder takes takes
the mat and you know, he'sgot to win by like a technical fall

(54:52):
wins the duel for Ohio State,but you don't know if he wins by
major, does he need eleven,twelve, thirteen here? Like the broadcast
crew, I think they were evenkind of confused. So so we kind
of felt like Island. I feltlike, if you're you're watching it amongst
friends or at a bar and andit's on, how are you supposed to
know every criteria and what the cumulativescoring is up? So we felt like

(55:15):
that would be something that would enhancethe you know, the product for for
the fan too. But I don'tdisagree because if if fan can make sense
out of that, if it's youknow, one hundred and seven to ninety
six, you know, the kidskind of score twelve more points in his
opponent in the last match to eithertie or win. Um, it's just

(55:35):
more, it's it's easier, it'ssimpler, um. And I think that
it just it adds more segment toit. So I think it's it could
be something that could definitely happen happendown the road for sure. And John,
to me, the ultimate point isthe outcome of a duel meet does
not lead to anything, So whynot throw all of tradition out and let's
just try something to make it betterbecause there's no duel meet championship, so

(56:00):
why not no, Yeah, andI think last year, I think the
example that was used was Pitt beatsomebody and they only want four matches,
but they want them all by fall, and they want four matches out of
the ten. The other team wonsix and they still won the duel,
So that you know, that's somethingthat you know can still probably happen with

(56:21):
that new scoring scheme, but atleast people will understand a little bit more
on the point systems and how thatyou know where the teams stand on that
and stuff like that. So Ithink it's definitely got to merit. It
just it didn't get that many legsunderneath us, just because of all the
stuff we had to deal with thisyear. But it's definitely got something that
can happen in the future, especiallywhen you have a great matchups. Say

(56:43):
it's number one versus number two.Whoever wins in a duel is going to
come with points and the other guycomes away with zero, So at least
you incentivize it to keep it competitiveand every point's gonna matter even at the
end. If it's thirteen eight andyou decide you want to score another takedown,
make it thirteen ten. It's tohelp your team. Yeah, well,
and think about it from my perspective. I wrestle Penn State last two

(57:05):
years and we got beat forty threeto zero and thirty five to three.
Okay, but maybe it looked likeit was I don't know, ninety to
twenty seven. So maybe it looksbetter because I have twenty seven points versus
three or zero. Do you knowwhat I mean to my administrators in my
ad So I don't know, Andthat's another way to look at it.

(57:27):
I love it. Now. Thefacial hair rule, we're gonna get more
Mike Zatic style beards, Well thisone was like, okay, we don't
check the scalp for any infections,skin infections. So and it was a
nightmare to police the half inch ruleon the beard. On the facial hair.

(57:49):
So at the end of the day, we just said, you know
what, kids want to have abeard, they can have it. They
still have to fit it in theirtheir you know, their head gear has
to fit around their head. Butit just became the only time it really
became the half inch? Was thatthe ANTIBA tournaments because Jeff Barbie, the
secretary rules editor, made sure thateverybody knew that if you got to skin
sec Anti doubles and you weren't ahalf inch on your beard you were getting

(58:13):
you had to go you to youknow, shave your beard or trim it
down. Now he you know,we were all just tired of policing it,
so it was just a matter ofjust saying, you know what,
we're done with it. So that'swhat that was kind of the thought process
on that one. No matter what, whether you like the rules or not,
I think it's going to add justsome excitement on what this is gonna
look like. Who's going to keepwrestling and tournaments, who will enter and

(58:36):
possibly forfeit out? What does thethree point takedown do? I think there's
some excitement there. I agree it'ssomething to look forward to. Then just
the normal you know, the rulesare saying, you know, there were
some really good, significant changes thisyear, but we'll have to wait and
see how they play out and howthey helped the sport for sure, but
it is exciting to see where theygo. Christ of Ball, what do

(58:57):
you think it's gonna look like.Then what do you think a due me
it's gonna look like? How doyou think this is going to affect?
Have you gone through some of thosescenarios on what a three point takedown does?
What the three near fall? Twoto four points now plus the three
what that's gonna do? Have yougone through those scenarios in your head?
I have, and and the biggestone I shared with you earlier with the
two to one take thousand stuff.But I also think you can get the

(59:20):
majors quicker, you can get thetechnical falls quicker. You can you know,
so things are going to happen inbunches a little bit more so.
If you've got somebody that's really goingto speed, you better slow him down,
and you better get on top oryou better figure out how to defend
them. Because and if you've gotsomebody that's good on top and he's you
know, real good little tilt serious, you know that, I mean,
that can be a pinball machine justracking up points. So it's um and

(59:42):
that's that's the direction we wanted togo. We wanted a three position,
three position sport that scored a lotof points, that had action and had
banned engagement instead of just sitting thereand waiting for the end of the match
to score takedown or try to getout or try to ride him out and
them you know, at the endof the period. So it's just I
think it's in crease action overall.Let's look back at this three year window

(01:00:06):
of what's happened. Twenty twenty.The NCA Championships got canceled due to COVID
and the sport was on the cuspof setting the all time record, was
going to just blow everything out ofthe water up in the Twin Cities with
attendance records that did not happen.And then we have this year, which
I thought this year's NCA Championships wasawesome. I just thought it stood out
of all the ones I've been to. But the attendance wasn't there, and

(01:00:30):
maybe the energy wasn't there. Arewe on the right track and if not,
what do we have to do towrite the ship? I think we're
on the right track. I thinkpulse is tough to get to. I
think there was it was a challengefor a lot of the fans that are
diehards because it was connecting flights.They were expensive tickets were hard to come

(01:00:52):
by in the sense that they wereexpensive as well, but you know,
it is what it is anymore.But I think I think we're on the
right track. I think the productthat we have is amazing, and I
agree with you. This NT doubleA tournament was probably one of the best
ones I've been to h with theskill set of the kid, the the
you know, the ability of thekids, the parody of all the weights.

(01:01:15):
The seating of all thirty three Ithink is awesome because it causes more
upsets and stuff of that nature throughoutthe tournament. So we're in a really
good place. We just got tomake sure that when we're picking spots that
it's look false. Is a greatcrowd for you know, for college wrestling,
it's great. It's just hard toget to and it's expensive to get

(01:01:37):
done. So we're hoping. Imean, because I thought the Tory was
a great venue, it was easyto get to. I thought the areader
was awesome. But this year,for some reason, the attendance was down
in the viewership was down a littlebit too, so so I think it's
gonna be uh something that we're hoping. Like the excitement you had mentioned earlier.
With the rule changes, I'm hopingthat that brings back there's people that

(01:01:59):
maybe couldn't come last year or didn'twatch last year, and then we get
back on that same track, becauseMinnesota would have been a great opportunity for
our sport. If you get thrustonto the mat, you personally and you
have to score one takedown on EthanLaird, could you do it? No,
he's too darn good anymore. Couldyou touch a leg? If I

(01:02:22):
if I have, if I tapehis ankles together, I might have a
better shot. But Ethan has alot of respect for me, so he
might let me like get close,but then at the end of the day
he wouldn't let me score. Soso there's definitely not a chance that I
have scoring against Ethan Ladder right now. I would prefer to Ryan Wolf and
Dougauer to do that job for me. Who's the greatest wrestler and writer history.

(01:02:47):
Probably yes, you go back herebecause he's a national final. Joan
would never make the final, Andthat's a tough decision to make. Because
we've got two two timers. I'vegot four or four times two timers actually,
because Jesse Heathen where COVID All Americansand uh all Americans, the Chad
and John Carvelra, who was thefirst ever two timer. But I've got

(01:03:08):
a bunch of third throughout the historyof the program. But Jesse is the
only one to ever make the finals. He's the only one to climb that
mountain. Um, and he didn'teven get all the way to the top.
But he's the only one to doit, and you gotta give him
credit and props for that. Ambahowas great. How about his match with
Keady in the quarters? What amatch? Yeah? Yeah, you know.

(01:03:32):
And the other one if you rememberum the kid from Wyoming, Uh
that he had to wrestle in thecountry Semis after he lost to um Passillo
in the in the semis, heis the wrestle of the kid from Wyoming.
What the heck's name? Um,he's a three time All American.
He's really good. Oh it doesn'tlike Yeah, did he miss wait one

(01:03:57):
year? Yeah? Yeah, hemiss wait them after that? Yeah,
he was. He was super tough. He was down nine to one and
Doug ended up major in the kid. That's how good Doug was. Yeah.
Well, Doug was just super athleticand strong and just so disciplined and
he had a unique style. Hewould he could take score takedowns without going

(01:04:20):
to his knee. To an entiren G double a tournament was pretty impressive.
Thank you for this time, John, This has been fun to break
this down. This is going tobe a fun upcoming season. We can't
wait, and we appreciate you sharingyour insights. Guys. I really appreciate
you having me on and I hopeyou guys have a wonderful day. Thanks
John. Let's hear from cliff KeenAthletic. We'll be back to wrap up

(01:04:43):
the show after this, sir,Yes, sir, new from cliff Keen
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mat gets you twenty percent off.Just go to www. Dot Cliff Keene
dot com and click Accessories under theshop Wrestling tab. Andy. You were
in the meetings for the Rules Committeewhen they were making the proposals. Did
you feel like this reflected some ofthe exchanges that you heard while you were
in Indianapolis. Yeah, like whatwe're doing here with the thirteen rule changes.

(01:05:51):
I don't know if you we doveinto the one that did not get
pasted with the writing time. Ithink your opinion to be to eliminate writing
time altogether, but maybe a bulletin it. You don't want it anymore,
No, get rid of it.Yeah, you've said that every years,
done a one eighty on it.I used to really really like it.
Now it's I don't think that itadds anything positive to the sport.

(01:06:15):
I think it adds confusion. Ithink it adds to chaos with clock operators,
and I don't think it contributes togood wrestling. So I say put
a bullet in it. But Idid not like the interpretation of the suggested
change of you get near fall points, then you get the writing time.
It's just too confusing either you keephadon't. Yeah, So I'm glad they

(01:06:39):
went one way. Clearly you wantedto put a bullet in it. But
we'll move forward. This is goingto be fun to see this upcoming season.
We are thankful for Clifkane Athletic.We're thankful for John Hanji for joining
us, For Andy Hamilton. I'mKyle Klingman. You have been listening to
on the Mat the Men in Themdingd Rember them me that he made the