Maryville's Mike Denney, seven-time national championship winning coach - OTM671

For over 50 years, Mike Denney was in and around the sport of wrestling, teaching the next generations of wrestlers and coaches. A seven-time national championship winning coach at the Division II level, Denney announced his retirement this past spring after serving the last 12 years at Maryville University in Missouri. Denney won seven titles at Nebraska-Omaha before the program was dropped the night his program won their third straight title for the second time in school history. “That other place” will honor the 2011 NCAA Division II championship team in October during the Omaha-Niagara hockey game. Coach Denney talks about the healing process the current administration at UNO is offering and some interesting stories about how Maryville got Denney’s old mats when they were launching the program. Join Kyle Klingman and Andy Hamilton as they talk about the world of wrestling on the flagship podcast of Trackwrestling.com from FloSports.

Show Segments
0:30 - Andy is extra lean. He’s been working out.
2:25 - Stopping over at North Central College and Andy doesn’t have the cannon he used to.
3:30 - Kyle’s tempered rant … again.
5:45 - Touching on the Nebraska-Omaha drop from 2011. People are still angry.
9:40 - Who’s #1 recap. 12:45 - Andy’s thoughts on participation numbers at the high school level.
18:15 - Cliff Keen Athletic
18:50 - Mike Denney Interview
1:00:00 - Cliff Keen Athletic
1:01:00 - Show Wrap-Up

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hi. I'm Jason Bryant from theShort Time Wrestling podcast and founder of the
Matt Talk podcast Network. Shows onthe network are individually owned and operated,
and those opinions presented and expressed maynot reflect others, the sponsors, patrons,
or the parent network. Find moreshows about the greatest sport in the
world at the Matt Talk Podcast Networkat Matt Talk online dot com. Welcome

(00:29):
to on the Matt I am KyleKlingman joined by Andy extra Lene Hamilton,
and this show, of course issponsored by Cliff Keen Athletics. So was
Who's number one? Which will wewill be talking about? But let's talk
about Andy Hamilton's first. He hasbeen on a workout regimen lately. His
calves look fantastic. A different cutto him. You just see him.

(00:52):
There's a different cadence. He walksdifferent, and I think it's noticeable,
especially in his stride. I hadsome friends of mine say that he's got
some wheels. He's fast twitch.So I hope you feel good about the
direction your life is going physically andmentally. I'm fast twitch. Huh,
you are fast twitch. I'm notmister fast twitch though, No, you're
not that fast. You're a fortyseven year old man. But I'll tell

(01:14):
you what when the dogs got loose. And this comes from a friend who
works for Cedar Falls Utilities. Hecalled me and said, wow, Andy
has some wheels. You need togive him the nickname wheels Hamilton's I may
have used that before, and soI don't want to repeat, which I
did once recently. But I don'twant to repeat. But you have some
wheels. And I saw the firsttime in Budapest how fast you could run.

(01:38):
And I don't know if that's howfast you were going down the first
baseline, but you've got some wheels, dude. Thanks and calves look great,
thank you, arms look thick andsolid. You're you're in a great
workout regimen right now. Thank you. What's the art to this? What
do you do? Yeah? Whatdo you are? You on the treadmill

(01:59):
or you listen? Much? Mostlyfree weights? Okay? No cardio and
the workout right now? A littlewarm up? You got a warm up
when you're my age? Okay?What's the warm up look like? It
depends. It's typically about I don'tknow, about ten fifteen minutes on the
elliptical or the treadmill or there area couple other machines that all hop on

(02:20):
here and there. We did makea stop to North Central College in Naperville,
Illinois, and it was a greattrip. We saw Joe Norton and
talked to the women's team. Yougot some great pictures in the wrestling room
of some workouts and some different athletes. But when we're leaving, you said,
could I get this baseball to homeplate? And I can't. It

(02:44):
did not work. You're a wayout in right field, and you said,
do you think I could make itleft? Was it left field?
Oh? Yeah? Okay, showsyou what I know felt territory. And
I think you needed a warm upafter that one, because you're certainly did.
I certainly did. There are areI'm a little afraid of what an

(03:05):
MRI my right or might show.There are some things in there that aren't
completely intact. I promise I wasn'tgoing to go on a rank, and
I'm not going to because if Iget down this rabbit hole, I will
get too angry. Okay, SoI'm gonna have to temper this a little
bit, and I'll start with justthis is kind of funny because we've talked

(03:27):
about this so much, and wejust had who's number one? Of course,
Tyana Fernandez, who looks fantastic.She's fourteen, she's just a freshman
in high school. She actually saidin an interview with you that she wants
to be an Olympic gold medalist intwenty eight I think in twenty twenty eight
in Los Angeles, I think sheactually said that, So that would make
her eighteen or nineteen at that point. And when we posted the clip on

(03:52):
Flow of of course people said futureOlympic gold medalist. So she's saying that,
and still disagree with that narrative ofI like that you're thinking I want
to be an Olympic gold medalist.That's fine if she wants to say that,
but to crown someone Olympic gold medalistI saw with Meyer Shapiro, future

(04:14):
four time NCAA champion. Come on, come on, you haven't won a
match yet, you haven't been tothe Olympic trials yet. It's just there's
so many steps that have to takeplace. And Scott Beck, who we've
mentioned numerous times on the show,his daughter Mikaela Beck, who won the
US Open at fifty nine kilograms andmade it to final X He has a
funny scenario about this because people whodon't know will ask what does your daughter

(04:39):
do, and inevitably you have tosay freestyle wrestling or going it's the Olympics.
She'll say are the Olympic wrestling?And so people will say, oh,
so she's going to the Olympics,and Scott will say, yeah,
she she just signs up. We'rejust going to sign up for the Olympics
and she's gonna go. As ifit's that easy. I don't think people
understand, especially in wrestling, thedegree of difficulty it is because this is

(05:02):
the culmination. This isn't the Mastersor the US Open where there's four events
a year and it's the high barof a sport, or Wimbledon or the
Australian Open or the French Open whereit's four times a year. This is
one event every four year, sixweight classes, so this is the high
bar. I would say that it'sharder than any other sport on the Olympic

(05:23):
program to make the team and thento get a gold medal. So again
maybe a little bit of a rantthere, but again I just want to
make sure people understand how difficult thatis. Where I'm not going to get
upset because I really could. Isthe dropping of Nebraska Omaha Wrestling in twenty
eleven. We wrote a three partseries on that for Track Wrestling, and

(05:44):
then shortly thereafter Flow Purchase Track Wrestlingand then we moved to that, so
it's on both platforms. But it'ssome of the most rewarding work I think
we've done. It's something I'm superproud of that we were able to tell
that story. Don't know how manyweeks it took. I'm going to say
it's more in the months. Ithink it was formulated in my head maybe

(06:05):
a year before it happened, andthen I approached you and said, let's
work on this. And it tooka long time to execute that because we
had to go back and we timedit out. We said we wanted this
to be released right before the Divisiontwo NSA Championships, which would have been
the ten year anniversary. I'm stillangry about this. It still bothers me.

(06:25):
It's still the number one dropping programthat angers me. Of course Fresno
State and Old Dominion. You cango down the line on programs that upset
you, but winning a national championshipbeing told an hour afterward, and then
the kicker as you get locked outof your home gymnasium the next day.

(06:45):
I have to make sure I keepcalm on this because I could go on
a ramp. But it's just oneof the biggest injustices our sport has ever
faced. And the reason I'm bringingit up is going to We're going to
have Mike Denny on the program.He was the architect of that Braska Nebraska
Omaha program and he's going to beon to talk about a reunion they're going
to have. He retired from Meryville, who hired him after the dropping of

(07:10):
Nebraska Omaha Wrestling. But those aremy feelings. Any thoughts you have,
Andy on the destruction of a dynasty, Yeah, I agree with you.
I don't think there's been a programthat's been dropped that's rocked me the way
that UNO did, especially like allthe circumstances surrounding and I remember being told
that they were dropping the program,and like, I just utter disbelief because

(07:35):
they were on such a run thereand so much community support, and they're
everything that you would want in anathletic program, success, success with character,
a lot of pride, community service, great in the classroom, all
these things that you want your programto embody, and they did, and

(07:58):
they're at one of their crowning moments, you know, at the celebration of
a national championship, they learned thattheir program is being dropped. And I
don't know that there's ever been ascenario quite like that where one hour you're
celebrating and you've won six out ofeight and your seventh and program history,

(08:20):
and you're feeling good. It's inKarney, Nebraska at the party, and
then you have to be told weare eliminating the program. I know how
I felt, not even being connectedto that program. We are now because
we know the story and we've ofcourse followed un O wrestling, but to
have it happened that way, togo from that high of high so that

(08:41):
low of lows, it really did. The closest thing, and maybe I've
brought this up before, The closestthing I can compare it to is the
unity of wrestling felt like twenty thirteenwhen it was recommended that wrestling was going
to be removed from the Olympic program. That's the closet as I can compare
it to. As far as howthe wrestling community bonded and felt like we

(09:05):
were all one and all together.And thinking back to some of the comments
that were brought up from other coaches, Jim Mkowski of Minnesota State Mankato being
one of them, he thought aboutturning around and going back to a rally
and felt like we were all oneand all together at that moment, more
so than any Division one program thatI've ever heard get dropped. So we're

(09:26):
gonna talk with Mike Denny about acelebration. They're gonna have Merville wrestling a
little bit where he ended his coachingcareer fifty four years from Mike Denny,
but fascinating guy. We get achance to talk to him. Before we
get to him, let's just doa recap of who's number one and what
happened there. From my advantage point, I know that you have broken it

(09:48):
down more than I have in aflow wrestling meeting. But I thought it
was fantastic top to bottom. Ithought it was a great event. Maybe
some air conditioning at Kenosha at theUniversity of Wisconsin Parkside Gym, but other
than that, I thought it isa fantastic event, some great matches and
tell you what that Jack's Forrest match. They put on a show, didn't

(10:09):
they. Yeah, Jack's Forrest JordanRainey thirty three points over time, back
and forth, a lot of greatexchanges, action packed. One of the
most entertaining matches that I've seen threepoint takedowns in effects. So I think
it's the first time we've seen threepoint takedown since the new rule came into
place, of course at high schoolwrestling, but implemented the college rules.

(10:31):
Your thoughts on the three point takedown? Do you think it's going to make
much of a difference. Yeah,I think it is not quite sure how
it's going to play out. Iwant to give it more than what do
we have ten matches? Yep,ten matches. You know, that's a
uber small sample sized to really drawany conclusions. But you know, let's

(10:54):
reflect on this maybe January one andsee where we're at that point. I
have a little bit better idea ofhow things are going to shake out with
it, but it certainly certainly changesyour you know, how you approach a
match, how you approach match strategy, and I'm curious to see how we
feel about it in four or fivemonths. I'm too, and I'm glad

(11:16):
we're trying it. I think thatwe need to do more of that experimentation
and I don't know how it's gonnaaffect action. I don't know that it's
necessarily gonna make a takedown look anydifferent, But I think it's more of
the match tactics and how things playout, and if you do get a
reversal, which is still two points, how does that work into it with

(11:37):
a takedown being worth three. Sojust a lot of things that need to
be fleshed out, but first crackat it. And for me too,
I think with there being ten women'smatches and ten men's matches, it was
so awesome to see full house forboth the women's were beforehand and there wasn't
a seat empty for that women's card, and I thought that was a great

(12:01):
step forward. Love to see that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I
think just everything about the event wastop notch and a lot of credit to
a lot of people within our companythat pulled together on short notice to put
together a first class event. AndI'm glad I finally got one of those
Cliff Keen flow shirts. Last year, I wasn't at the event, and

(12:24):
I saw some of our other staffmembers have the Cliff Cliff Keen flow shirt.
Got one that's green and I'm gonnawear the heck out of that thing.
It's so awesome. I just lovethe style of it. So really
appreciate Cliff Keen sponsoring this show.And Who's Number One? Final thoughts from
you on Who's Number one before weget to Mike Denny. Well, this

(12:45):
isn't Who's Number One, but Igot some final thoughts before we get to
Mike Denny. How about the participationnumbers? Love that, Yeah, go
into that. I'm glad you broughtthat up because I read that article through
twice and some of the most encouragingnumbers that I've seen in a long time.
That makes me think that we areheading in the right direction for high
school wrestling. So you can getinto the weeds of what it is,

(13:09):
but high school wrestling participation has grownnine point six percent for boys. High
school wrestling on the boys side ninepoint six percent since a year ago.
Last year, we're up nine pointsix So we're at two hundred and fifty
six k right now. That's upfrom two hundred and thirty one to thirty

(13:30):
two thereabouts. So there was alittle bit of fall off after COVID.
Pre COVID numbers were around two fortyseven on the boys side, so we
were we were kind of declining therefor about six straight years. Beginning in
twenty eleven, there was two hundredand seventy three thousand, and it was
just a gradual decline all the waydown to two forty four in twenty seventeen

(13:56):
and then slide uptick twenty eighteen twentynineteen. Then the COVID numbers really fell
off big time in twenty twenty onetwenty two, and to bounce back with
two hundred and fifty six k upto a level we haven't seen since twenty
fifteen, I think is great newson the high school boys front. We've

(14:16):
known that high school girls has beenthis rocket ship that's been heading upward for
quite a while now, and tosee those numbers continue to head in that
direction at a really rapid pace isamazing to see, but also just as
cool to see as the boys numbernear and double digit increase. So girls

(14:37):
fifty five percent up from a yearago, which is on the heels of
a forty five percent increase from theprevious year, and I think you don't
have to really look much further thanlooking at the number of states that we've
sanctioned, you know, to gofrom six in twenty seventeen to forty now

(14:58):
and seventeen we had close to fifteenthousand girls participants nationwide. Now we're knocking
on the door of fifty k.And so we had a a seventeen thousand
person excuse me, seventeen thousand participantincrease from twenty two to twenty three.
We didn't even hit the seventeen thousandnumber total of girls participants until twenty nineteen.

(15:24):
So the amount of growth we've seenthere and I think that's that's still
going to continue, and you thinkabout what this sets us up for long
term, it's it's really cool tosee because we got a lot of small
college programs that are being added orhave been added in the last ten to

(15:45):
twenty years, especially on the women'sside, it's been a challenge for some
of those coaches to fill rosters.This contributes to that. And also we're
in a time where we're in anofficial shortage in all sports, but especially
wrestling, where you know when whenyou're short on officials as is, and

(16:06):
then you're seeing a sixteen percent increaseand participation on the high school side,
that compounds the problem. But whenyou bring more people under the tent,
the odds that we're going to havemore officials, more coaches, more athletes
in the years ahead, you knowthat bodes well for solving that issue.
Rich Bender of USA Wrestling, Executivedirector at USA Wrestling had some interesting comments

(16:30):
if we could speak to those.I think you talked about how wrestling is
a contact sport and during COVID itcould be seen as kind of the one
of the sports that was maybe alittle bit head of stigma attached to it.
But he also praised it because ofthe resilience that wrestling had that we've
been training for this our entire lives. I thought that was a great quote.

(16:52):
Yeah, And I think there wasa lot of sentiment that when we
were, you know, look backthree and a half years to twenty twenty
at the onset of the pandemic thatI think a lot of people thought man
wrestling is going to be the lastsport to come back because of the social
distancing aspect of it, and andthat was you know, I heard some

(17:15):
people speak to that. On thecontrary, though, it's like the points
that Rich made were things that peoplebrought up three years ago that hey,
we're trained to do this. Wego through skin checks, we go through
medical checks, we we know howhow to operate in this type of environment.
The other part is when you're outthere with with one wrestler one on
one, it's not like let's saybasketball, where there's ten people out there

(17:37):
touch on the same ball and inclose quarters and you're bringing subs off the
bench and things of that nature.So in some ways, in a roundabout
way, we were equipped to handleit. And I think you know,
you reflect on that period and goinginto that, you know a lot of
the fears that a lot of peoplein our sport may have had. We

(17:59):
came out of that in pretty goodshape. Final thoughts from you before we
get to Mike Denny. That's aboutall I've got, Kyle, all right,
we will be back with Mike Dennyand Amy Hamilton and his impressive calves
after this fall is in the air. That means folk style and club wrestling
seasons are coming fast. Cliff Keenhas everything you need to hit the mats,

(18:22):
from headgear and kneepads to singlet's andwork out gear. As a bonus
on the mat. Subscribers can savebig at cliff Keen dot com. Go
to cliff Keen dot com and usecoupon code on the Mat one word at
checkout and take twenty percent off yourorder. You heard correctly. Coupon code
on the Mat gets you twenty percentoff. Just go to www dot cliff

(18:45):
Keen dot com and click shop Wrestlingand choose from the products you need the
most. Our guest has been incoaching wrestling for fifty four years. His
most memorable stint was with the Universityof Nebraska Omaha, his last eight season
six NCAA Division Two championships seven totalat UNO, before a successful career at

(19:10):
Maryville. He's seventy six years oldnow finally getting out of the coaching part
of the sport, but I knowhe's going to stay active. It's Mike,
Denny, Mike, how are yougood? Thank you, Kyle.
I appreciate, I appreciate being on, appreciate you ask me and me on
and thank you for all you guysdo for our sport. Fifty four years.

(19:30):
Mike, it's you say that,and there's Andy's not fifty four.
I'm not fifty four. That's along time in coaching. What kept you
going that long? Well, youknow, I was telling you earlier I
felt called, as God called meto this mission. And you know so

(19:52):
and I've been, you know,been blast guys. I've had thirty two
sets of brothers. I've coached thirteenwrestlers where I coached their day as in
college. I've had you know,I actually had a young man I recruited
this last year. I coached hisdad and I coached his grandpa in nineteen
sixty nine, so I coached hisgrandpa and football my first coaching show.

(20:15):
I coached football and wrestling at OmahaSouth High School and taught math. I
don't know if I could do themath thing anymore. I think I forgot
out because I guess some of themath I taught wasn't that deep so they
could be all right. But yeah, gosh, So I've been blessed,

(20:37):
you know, I've been been ableto connect with some of my you know,
I had a chance to talk toKodie Garcia go to his see his
Dojoe here a couple of days ago. And Brad Hildebrand, you know,
all years olmhas Scott. I wasout in Colorado and connected with my good
friend Harry Gaylor, you know heyou know, he took the coach and
talked for fifty one years, andso I got a chance to spend some

(21:00):
time with him his wife and mywife was a good friend. So we've
been able to do some traveling andand uh, but yeah, I got
to admit it's been an adjustment.Well, looking back, when you first
got into it, did you knowyou had something that was leaning toward coaching,
or that you had a certain skillset that would be good to be

(21:23):
a coach at some level. Well, that's interesting, you know. In
honestly, Kylian College, I neverthought I never one time thought I was
going to teach and coach. Iplayed football and wrestled, but really wanted
to play football. I wanted togo to the next level, you know,
and I never I didn't get draftedthat My coach at that time,

(21:47):
Sam Sampled, he had some connectionsand I got I actually had a try
out with Hilma Mustangs. That wasthe you know, they were in the
Continental Football They they had just goneto the Continent and a little bit the
USFL and that new league that's outnow. So I played with him for
seven years, and so I stillwanted to you know, I was trying

(22:07):
to get try out, to gethooked up with it with the team.
But I started teaching and coaching,and and uh here I am thirty four
years later. So uh yeah,I just you know, I really always
enjoyed and you know, I coachedfootball for ten years in high school football
and wrestling, and then of coursereally felt called to get to the college

(22:29):
level. And and you know,coach, you know, college athletes were
always I mean, I enjoyed coachingfootball, but I don't know wrestling just
I just was pulled to wrestling.I really just felt pulled to coach that
you know that you get really seemedto get more of the one on one
and closer to your athletes and notI which you can't do that football.

(22:52):
But I think a lot of timesthe football is just numbers. You know,
that's but you know, so guys, you know, ten years in
high school and then forty four yearsyou know, in the NCUB Division two.
So yeah, golly, I thenblessed with some great coaches and wrestlers
and and you know, thankful andgrateful for all that. You know,

(23:15):
the opportunity I had, and ofcourse then I had a partner. My
wife was she was the second motherto fifty four teens. You know,
we've been married fifty four years.She was she was with me for all
fifty to fourteen. So and thenyou know, your family, it's a
sacrifice. I mean, you knowthey uh, you know, we had
three children and you know they're allmarried now and have children. But then

(23:36):
they're all coached. They've all coachedand been coaching, so uh, you
know, I uh, but there'syou know, it's a it's a tough
the balance is especially at the collegiatelevel, you know, as far as
coaching and you know, to traveland that kind of recruiting. But they

(23:56):
they hung in there with me.How long when you first started? I
want to know the timeline of thisbecause it takes a while to understand coaching.
When you first got into coaching,how long did it take you to
figure out your formula? And ofcourse you're gonna make evolutions and adaptations along
the way, But how long didit take before you said it's starting to
click now I understand coaching. Thisis what coaching means. Well, that's

(24:22):
that's a great question. I appreciatethat question. I think you know,
when you first start coaching, youcoached like you were coached. That's really
all you know. You know,so in of course football is a little
bit different difference when of course thatwas old school you know where I mean,
it was back when we were notallowed to have water, you know,

(24:45):
different practices because it made you tougher. You know that alsopply wasn't that
good for you. But so youknow that the coaching has changed a little
bit. But as you know,as I started coaching, I just felt,
you know, I love the teachingand building part of it, you
know, I just uh and Ijust you know, I've always kind of

(25:06):
had this thing, I you know, I wanted to master the art of
encouragement. You know. That's alwaysbeen kind of a mission to me.
Hey, you know, sometimes ifyou you know, you you lose it
young, uh, you know,a wrestler or even back then, a
football player you know, quits thesport or something happens and you just go
team. Did I master the artof encouragement with them? So that's always

(25:30):
been kind of my mission to dothat, you know, and and just
teach and build. I I alwaysfelt like I just helped do it.
You've got to create a you know, a family that's doing that, you
know, but working together. Youknow, the uh, you know,

(25:51):
the teams are the closest, theindividuals performed the best. I've always said
that, So really tried to createa family kind of atmosphere are really supporting
and working together. And I justI really enjoyed working on that culture,
you know, trying to develop thatculture. And you know, I think
it's especially with wrestling because it's it'sit's a demanding sport and it's a great

(26:18):
sport to teach and build with itreally is, because it's going to it's
going to demand the most out ofyou. Uh. Talking to you know,
Cody Garcia's group the other day andI said, you know what,
you're going to be challenged this season, So make sure you've got your foundation
strong, you know, because youknow you're going to be challenged. You're

(26:40):
you know, there's there's you know, there's going to be some delightful challenges.
I like to call them. Well, I want to read something to
you. This was a part thatyou said in the three part series that
we wrote for Track Wrestling and theneventually went on Flow wrestling when we're purchased,

(27:00):
and I can vividly remember Andy highlightingthis and said this right here,
this is what people need to read, or this is what every person should
read. I'm just going to readwhat you said. You create a wrestling
family, cooperative effort, shared vision. Everybody is vital. Everybody is a
vital part of it. Surround yourselfthe people that are band of brothers.

(27:21):
Surround yourself with good women too.They give you a different perspective. My
wife is a part of that.She's given up so much consistent consistency.
This is who you are? Whendid you figure that piece out? Well?
I think you know in your coachingprocess. I think you know.
I was fortunate in my early yearsof coaching, especially Ellen High School.

(27:45):
I think back and I was ableto coach with three coaches that all three
of them are in the Nebraska Coachingthe Hall of Fame. But all three
of them won a state championship upin three sports. And the only three
coaches that were able to do that, and I was able to be around

(28:06):
all three of them Corny Collins,that you know, he's a legend.
Going back years ago, Corney wasa legend uh, you know actually from
here in South Dakota, a littlehere in South Dakota, you know,
played to Creighton and you know,was was actually a three sport athlete there,
but just would go to his hisoffice and just you know, lunch
hour and they have lunch with himand just sat and listen, you know.

(28:30):
And again of course he won thestate championships and and football and basketball
and baseball at Omaha South. Andthen Roger Higgins at uh, you know,
Omaha Bryant High School. Uh,you know Roger Higgins, he was
a legend, legend in coaching andh Cathedral High School there in Omaha,

(28:52):
he won state championships and football,basketball, and track. And then Bob
Gates, my old friend, Gator, you know, you won three championships.
They're at Holy Name High School inOlmahall. But uh, you know,
in football, basketball, and baseball. So uh, just to be
around people. I was fortunate tobe around people and I just absorbed it,

(29:15):
you know. And uh, andthen you kind of build your you
know you I said, you startout coaching like you were coached, but
then you kind of developed. Youknow, what you feel is you know
you're you're called to do as acoach, so and that, you know,
I think it's you know, you'realways you're always, you know,

(29:38):
just trying to you know, bebetter at it, be better at get
at mastering the art of encouragement.I haven't done that yet, though I
haven't mastered it. Nineteen ninety onewas your first NA Team Championship Division two,
and then it wasn't until two thousandand four that you won your next
one, and then you won sixout of eight before and ask Omaha dropped

(30:00):
the program in twenty eleven, whydid it take that long? Well,
you know, I think there's ayou know, we were so close so
many times, you know, andI think we've we started adjusting some things.
And I say we because you know, I really felt like it's a
cooperative effort. You know, youknow, we were working. We're working

(30:25):
to I help, I help teachand build and working getting and we were
able to get you know, justto you know, Ronnie Higden, you
know my you know, wrestled forme and you know I had a number
of wrestlers working with us that uhyou know, wrestled Force, Wrestled Force,
you know, Zach do mingus andZach Staalder and Jason Brill's and then

(30:49):
of course we always had guys youknow that we're working on their masters or
still coming up to help, andwe always get great help in the room.
And so you know, I thinkwe really, you know, we
really just tried to you know,say, okay, what do we gotta
what do we gotta do to touh be better? You know what we
gotta do too? And of course, uh and when we were able fortunate

(31:14):
to to you know, just justget some outstanding me and that just were
quality character kind of guys, youknow, but uh and just were free
to end and shoot, they motivatedand inspired me. So you know that
just that coffee we've ef we workingtogether and having that shared vision and uh,

(31:34):
you know, putting it all together. And you know, a lot
of times it was just avoiding someinjuries too. You know there were times
we were boy, we were rightthere and just you know, uh,
an injury or two kind of youknow, hurt us. But yeah,
I'm not sure you know what butall the things we did. But I

(31:56):
know we were always working on it, and even the years that we wanted
were saying, Okay, what dowe gotta what can we do better.
You know, are you proud whenone of your athletes wins a title?
So for example, Mark Bauer coachNebraska Carney he was one of your athletes,
Steve Costanzo Saint Claude State at oneof your athletes. Are you proud
when they're they go on and winchampionships? Oh my gosh. Yes,

(32:22):
And you know, still can bestill close with them, still communicate with
them, you know, and gsubet. I mean, I can't say
that enough, you know, AndI really just try to pick out three
of them every day to you know, send a message to or something and
to tell them how proud I amof them. And you know, I

(32:43):
just keep doing what you're doing.And they're they're making a difference. Boy,
Mark Bauer is an athletic director nowis doing some things that I mean,
he's cutting edge, you know,and for them to you know,
go through as coaches, them getinto administration. And although I was you
know, I've had twenty two athleticdirectors in my fifty four years. That

(33:05):
might be some record, sure,Uh, I've had twenty two and uh
and of course, uh, therethere's been a couple of them that weren't
that uh, that weren't that goodto us. But uh, anyway,
so in one of the things too, I think we tried to do is

(33:29):
just be self sufficient. You knowthat we've written Uh, if you're going
to do it, get it doneand get it done right, you got
to do it yourself. So,you know, we we were We went
out, we raised money, webuilt a you know, a great booster
club, and you know, wejust tried to touch all areas and and

(33:49):
you know, build it from theground up. So but she's blessed to
be around some some great people thatworked behind the scenes and really brought into
our program. So, Mike,of course, over the course of covering
wrestling, you watch a lot ofprograms get dropped. For me, the
most painful program that I've seen geteliminated is still the University of Nebraska Omaha

(34:15):
in twenty eleven. It still bringsup a lot of emotion for me,
and I wasn't part of the program. For you, now in twenty twenty
three, when you look back atit, does the pain still remain,
Yes, yes it does. Ithink the people that were responsible for doing

(34:35):
it, there was four people thatwere responsible really you know where they're all
gone. Now they're not there,so that certainly makes it a difference.
And honestly, in twelve you know, it's twelve years, right, I
couldn't drive it by. I meanI called it the other place, you
know, and now I'm back tocalling it UNO or the University of Braska

(34:59):
Almo. The reason for that isis the people that were responsible are not
there anymore. They're gone. Andand this new athletic director and then the
new chancellor are you know, justthey they they want to heal some wounds,
you know, Adrian dald the newathletic director, he's reaching out and

(35:20):
wants to heal some wounds. AndI want to tell you it's it's a
little bit of a process because thatwas the way it was done. But
you know, gosh, Maryville gaveus a home when we were homeless and
reached out to us and Chris wewere able to continue. And and really

(35:40):
I think for all of our youknow, our the people that were you
know, our wrestling family got behindus at Maryville because they wanted to keep
you know, see us keep itgoing. And mary Wille allowed us to
do that. So now we're youknow, on October fourteenth, we're gonna
we're gonna have a big reunion celebrationand I at first they wanted to the

(36:01):
country. So about the two thousand, you know, the twenty eleven team
got back from the national tournament,were locked out of the field house.
We couldn't even take our trophy inthe field them. So they wanted to,
you know, try to rectify thata little bit. I said,
well, they said, well,in Dalga Athletic Dreschers, what can we
do coach to see I said,well, the first thing you could do

(36:23):
is left line up the two thousandeleven national championship team with the trophy in
front of the Lee and Lean SappField House and go to the door and
have it unlocked so we can actuallyget in. He said, well we
can do that. Said, okay, well that's the start. But I
want to recognize an honor the sixtythree years of the rich wrestling tradition there

(36:49):
and do it in the Lea SappLee and Leen saff Field House. Because
Lee Sapp put his arm around mewhen I first you know, in nineteen
seventy nine, when I first came, he just put his arm around me,
you know, Sap brothers, uhyou know, and Lee was just
an great person and of course nowhas passed away, but and then field
House has named Nap. But everythingwe did was in that field House.

(37:10):
And that's where I want to havethis reunion celebration is in that field House
because I'll tell you what, Leeis going to be smiling from heaven when
we when we get everybody together there. But but we want to be able
to go to the door this timeand not have the lock. So they're
they're saying that, but they canhandle that. Mike Winn's the last time

(37:32):
you had contact with any of thefour people that you feel are responsible for
you and oh dropping the program.I honestly have never talked to any of
them since the time I talked tohim too, you know, the you
know, the athletic director called meon the phone. Never never met with
him a person, never talked tohim again after that. He just was

(37:55):
never I mean, so uh yeah, just so the yeah, that's you
know, for twelve years. Butyou know what was what was really honestly
a blessing for me was you know, going to you know, starting a
new program. I just had toput everything into it, you know,

(38:17):
so you really didn't even have achance much Well you couldn't help but think
about what happened. But you know, trying to get as many wrestlers there
as I could from you know,from the other place, from you and
oh and and then of course torecruiting and getting it started. Let me
tell you, starting up and therethat's a that's a delightful challenge to start

(38:38):
from scratch. You know, thesecoaches that are doing this, I really
can can connect with them. Youknow, when you're you're starting a program
from scratch, there's a there's alot to that, I'm telling you.
And you know, building up yourculture and uh, there's there's a lot
to it, especially now, youknow, especially if you're you know,

(39:00):
adding men and women and sometimes you'reinvolved with that part of it too.
But there there's a lot to it. It takes. It's going to challenge
you, let me tell you so. And it certainly did me. But
that in a way was good becauseit just kind of kept my mind off
of what happened to us. Mike. If if Uno had to drop wrestling,

(39:23):
how should they have done it,How should it have been handled?
Well, hopefully more than a phonecall, you know, And and hopefully
you have some you know that we'resaying to you, what can we do
here? You know, Okay,they wanted to go Division one. Okay,

(39:44):
is there is there still a waythat wrestling can fit into that or
is this the right decision to goDivision one? Let's explore this when in
Coursino they did the same thing tofootball, but none of the football you
know, alumni or contacted or youknow. I mean there was some prominent
people that were connected with football forall those years there, and uh and

(40:07):
I knew much of them, butwere they were. There was no property
there, but there was no sharedvision. There was no real communication you
know, and kind of work togetheron it. There just wasn't any of
that, you know, there's we'regoing to go Division one and it's going
to be done behind the scenes.They kept it from me, I think

(40:30):
really specifically tried to keep the movefrom me because they felt that I could,
you know, maybe have too muchinfluence to keep it from happening.
I'm sure that's kind of what theywere thinking. Just you know, I
had a lot of people I knewthat both you know, and there were
in the football program. And ofcourse, you know, thirty two years

(40:51):
were there and wrestling and then goingon before that, you know, or
you know, I knew Don Benningreally well, was a good friend of
mine, you know, and theon Benning air there and all the way
back, and tried to connect withthe people that you know, just started
the program there, uh you knowwhen they first started it, so you

(41:13):
know they're just there. There hasto be a better way. There just
has to be a better way thana phone call and never never meet with
a person again. I mean whenyou've been there thirty two years and and
concern. We had some success andnot only on the wrestling but the academic
side of it and the community serviceand you know, just trying to do

(41:35):
things the right way. But butyou know, there has to be a
better way of doing it to justyou know, and at the regents meeting
when we were trying to you know, get the regents to you know,
get on our side, one ofthe things I said is this, it
is this the best you can do? I mean, this is the best
you can do. Really, comeon, There's got to be a better

(42:00):
way than this. So that's that'sthe part I think that just I was
just it was oh sad, Ijust thought the way it was done was
it was sad. Really, Mike, there's still a disconnect that I hope
you can help me understand. Soyou get a call immediately after winning the

(42:21):
NCAA Championships in twenty eleven. I'mgoing to say an hour to two hours
afterwards, you're told that the program'sdropped. You come back the next day,
they lock you out, and nowthey put a bullet in the program.
So they're they're killing the most successfulprogram in UNO history. And now
twelve years later, I get thatthe four individuals who are involved are no

(42:43):
longer part of the process. Butit's not like they're bringing wrestling back.
Does it feel like a little bitof a strange recognition when they're bringing you
back twelve years later later bringing theprogram to recognize it twelve years later,
and it feel like there should besomething a little bit more. Yes,

(43:04):
I mean, I have to tellyou that my first meeting with the ATTIC
director, he was real nervous,but I had checked him out. I
had talked to a number of peopleabout him and about this is this sincere
you know what's behind this? Youknow? And granted when you know when
they dropped football and wrestling. Certainlythey lost a lot of you know,

(43:30):
financial support, just support for theuniversity. Uh, you know that.
I mean that was and it's stillI think they're still feeling that and that,
you know, behind the scenes,I was trying to say this is
this, what's this for? ButI felt there was a seer that they
felt like this was wrong and theywanted to do what they could to try

(43:52):
to heal some wounds. And soI think we're in the process of doing
that. I uh, you know, if I have wrestlers that there,
you know, because we were evendown a campaign to get as many back
as we can and we have restlessas coach. Wait a minute, I
don't even I don't know if Ican go into that, you know,

(44:12):
into that field house, you know, and Ron Higmen and I we went
in, you know, this inone of we had you know, we've
had a couple of meetings. Thefirst meeting was off campus, but we
both met and went into the fieldhouse and actually two or three times during
the time walking through that, weboth broke down. We both just broke
down. There was just tears inour eyes because you know what the way

(44:37):
it was done and you know,you're walking into the field House and you
know, you're thinking the Kaufman BrandBailey and you know the national tweelsted five
national tournaments there and just you know, all this stuff we did in the
community, you know, and hospitalbusiness and all this, you know,
and then you know, going in, you go up to where our offices

(44:58):
were, where the rest are them, and they're they're you know there,
it's an academic room, you know, so we to do it. That
was difficult that I just felt like, Okay, I think let's just look
at this, this could be thestart of something bigger. Uh. I

(45:20):
just felt I wanted to make surethat it was. And I feel like
they're sincere and where this will go, I'm not sure, but I do
think there's gonna there can be somehealing here. And one of the things
I'm looking at just a reunion,a celebration and getting people back together and
really using this as a reason todo that and then kind of see what

(45:44):
comes out of this, you knowa little bit. You know, I
wanted to be and you know we'vegot we've you know, Mike Moyer from
the National Rust and Coaches Association iscoming, you know, he's uh and
uh, I think there's a reasonhe's coming, so uh uh you know

(46:08):
that. But again, and Ithink you're right, Kyle. They're just
let's just let's get together and seewhat happens, so to speak. We're
going where you know, we're itis twelve years. Let's let's get our

(46:30):
people together while some of them stillcan't, you know, going back to
the years, you know, theDon Benning years and the years before that
and Mike Promisanal years, and wegot we got wrestlers and people coming back.
And I don't want it to Iwant it to be parents. I
want it to be people that helpedwith the tournaments. I want it to

(46:51):
be that kind of a reunion celebration. Trev Alberts, who was the athletic
director that gave you the news.Several years later, we were watching videos
with a local report where he saidof the way he handled it, he
said it was unconscionable. What doyou think when he says that, You

(47:15):
know, I think when he actuallytook the job, he had an agenda,
you know, he and he wantedto be where he is now,
and that was the agenda from thebeginning, and he was kind of using
and he was going to do everythinghe can to to get that, you

(47:38):
know, to crease his chances ofthat happening. I guess, I guess
you got to hand it to him. He said, he got it done.
But in the process of of howmany people it hurt, you know,
and and uh, and I don'tit's not just wrestling but football,
you know, just and the numberof people that they made a difference in

(48:01):
their lives, you know, andand the way it was done. So
but again, I want I wantthis to be I want people to get
back together and just you know,Okay, we're gonna see. There's got

(48:22):
to be some good that can comeout of this when we get this,
you know, we go back allthose years and we have people that just
get together and the total different kindof atmosphere. You know, they did
let us in the field eyes Iknew one of the security guards. They
eventually let us in, and prettysoon the field house was almost full of
people like what is going on?And the feeling in that feeling house of

(48:45):
what is happening? How could thishappen? And I want that different feeling
now. I want I want peoplein there just you know, enjoy seeing
each other. We're we're actually goingto have you know, some places where
they can more than one because we'regoing where they can set and just give
memories where we're going to record memoriesthat they had during during their years.

(49:07):
And we're gonna have you know,going back different areas where they can congregate.
We're gonna have food, We're gonnahave Uh, they're going to give
everybody a ticket to the hockey gameif they want to come and recognize the
twenty eleven team there. But Idon't want it to just be about the
two eleven team. I wanted tobe about the sixty three years of wrestling

(49:28):
there. So, Mike, whenyou said that Mike Morier was going to
be there from the National Wrestling CoachesAssociation, there was a part of the
way you said that, I'm wondering, are they going to make an announcement
that they're adding wrestling back at youand oh no, but uh, you
know I wanted him there. Youknow, Mike's pretty persistent. Yes,

(49:52):
if if there's a crack in thatdoor, Mike can get in it,
he's awesome. So hopefully would oneof the things I want the administration and
I wanted them to see the supportfor wrestling. I want to and that's

(50:12):
why I want this. I wantthis to Lee and Lee sat Field House
to just be I wanted to walkin. I'm gonna have all of our
old banners up, and we're gonnaand I'm gonna have spotlights on things that
we're gonna you know, we're gonnahave h we want. I want to
get trying trying to find one ofour old maps, you know, as
there's old RESO lights. They're sostinking heavy. I think there's one there's

(50:35):
you know, I do have someof them down to Maryville, but I
don't want to haul them all theway up from St. Louis all of
them all the way down. ButI'd like to have one of our and
I'd like to have it set upjust like we did duels, you know,
I mean we we we hip hoppedwhen we had duels and we had
spotlights and we had things going on, and I wanted to just when people
walk in and they I want themjust say oh wow, and uh,

(51:00):
you know, so we're I'm goingto work hard on on doing that and
uh and just uh, you know, creating a great atmosphere you know we
used to make We're gonna have tshirts, We're gonna have food, We're
gonna have we know we're you coming, Tyle, I really want to And
I want you to try to talkAndy into come and too. I think

(51:20):
he needs to be there. Yes, you're a persuasive guy. What's your
pitch to Andy Hamilton to get himthere? Uh? You know, we're
gonna have some fun food and fellowship. You can't you can't beat that.
I like fun food and fellowship.Yeah, and he likes wrestling. Mike,

(51:44):
Mike, we can't let you leavetoday without having you share the story
of of getting the old Omaha matsdown to Maryville, because that I think
I think I speak for Kyle whenI say that that was one of the
real highlights of doing that story,was was you sharing that story with us?

(52:05):
Well, so they you know,they they put all of our stuff
on eBay, you know, sowe knew this. We kind of figured
out that this was happening. SoI had Jeff Miller, and Jeff Miller
was this guy was amazing. Hewas the one that gave me a phone

(52:27):
call on the hard line one dayafter this happened, and I happened to
asked answer my phone in the office, and I had a thousand calls,
you know, I mean, Idon't know, maybe more. My cell
phone blew up my office phone,okay, and for some reason I picked
it up in my office. Sojust as Jeff Miller from Maryville, we'd

(52:51):
like to see if you'd like tobring as many people as you could down
to Maryville. I go, whatMaryville? Maybe they Saint Louis And I
said, who is this? Afterabout three times, I said who is
this? And I said, thisis some some joke. It's a cool
joke that you're gonna, you know, you want to bring our team down.
And it's no, I'll be upthere tomorrow. So and it happened.

(53:15):
You know, it's almost a miracle. It was like a miracle,
but it wasn't almost. It wasthey're the same colors, same colors we
are so so over the years wehad bought a number of masks where we
raised one hundred thousand dollars a year, you know, through our booster club,
raised money, you know, thatkind of thing. So we had
then of course, they put everythingon eBay. They wanted to sell it.

(53:37):
All the math boys, the maths. So I had Jeff create a
fictitious eBay account, you know,so we uh, then we sent letters
out to everybody we could think ofto don't bid on our math because we
want to keep them. Because wehad the same colors at Marydlle. You

(53:58):
know, we thought, well,Jeeves, we could and I don't know,
holy maths. I think I mighthave had at least five just me.
It was seven maths, I can'tremember. So so anyway, nobody
was bidding on them. They couldn'tfigure out why nobody was bidding on anything.
We waited and waited and waited andbuy the nunky. Jeff throw in

(54:21):
some real low bid. And sothere was somebody that actually bid from Florida
that bid on two of the mats, well the Master, and we're clear
up in our wrestling room and weactually had to use a frame to get
him in there. And I knewthis day weren't going to have a crane.
So they came up and it wasreal hot. These people came up

(54:42):
there in some flatbed. They droveall the way from Florida. They got
it up there and they're looking togo, how are we going to get
these mats out? Of here.So they tried to push him out the
door and roll them down the stadiumbleachers. Well, they busted off a
couple of bleachers and the mat gotdown to the bottom and just laid there,
and they he took off. Theywere sweating and hot. One guy
almost had a heart attacks took off, so he left them lay there.

(55:07):
So then I got Brad Hildebrand.He got a crane, you know,
he's the fireman, and got acrane. He took a couple of the
mats, and then I had Jeffbid on these. I don't even I
don't know if he gave I thinkhe might just told him, well,
we'll take him. And then Igot Gary News. You know, he
has a trucking company, and werented a fork lift and we loaded him

(55:29):
into the trucks and hauled him toMerryville and we hauled the hoist. We
hauled everything to Merryville and put thehoist up and up down there and al
Mason, you know, he's puthim up for us and in the in
the sap Field house, and hecame down and put it to me and
put the hoist up and we stillgot him. I love that's even better

(55:54):
than the version that we got before. We didn't get all the details before,
so we didn't get that. Wedidn't get that. I gotta ask
you about I gotta ask you aboutone of your wrestlers. There's a four
time national champ named Les Siegmund.And I'll tell you what. You take
the biggest, baddest football player inthe NFL right now, and you put
him next to Less Sigmund and andI would say, Les Sigmund would take

(56:15):
that guy down. People would laughyou out of the building. But but
Les Siegmund was that tough, hewas that good. What made that guy
so special? You know he wasone hundred and eighty four pound when I
recruited him from Surges. Uh,you know, he wrestled ten eighty four
our first year. He started gainingsome weight, you know, and uh

(56:38):
and then you know, but hecould, I mean he could shoot low
singles. He you know, hecould he could do some stuff. Man.
You know, he got the outstandingwrestler in the Midlands tournament. He
majored or pecked every everyweight in theMidlands. If you guys knew that,
he got the outstanding wrestler in themiddle of the tournament. They had some
good everyweight there. But a matterof fact, I'm talking cantel him this

(57:00):
afternoon. Him and I we stillsaying couch and loved the heck out of
him. And and you know,I actually gave the eulogy his dad's funeral.
He asked me to give the ulogy. Dad and I got to be
good friends. But yeah, thatguy he could show shoot low singles and
then he could ride the legs andwere most heavyweights, you know, they

(57:21):
struggled with that a little bit,and he made sure they struggled. So
he never had an offensive points scorewardon him in four national tournaments. Man
always was not one offensive point.And we had this eight and we had
to put this perspective. His finalnational championship was a win of the finals

(57:43):
over Trevelle de Lagnev, who wasa world an Olympic medalist, and actually
Less beat him for a world teamspot. He made a world team.
So you have two world teamers inthe Division two finals in two thousand and
six. That shows you how deepthat weight class was. Oh yeah,
Traville is a great young man.He used to come up and work out
with us. I know him reallywell. He's doing a great job for

(58:05):
Mark. A matter of fact,Mark Manning was down here doing a clinic
at a LAFA South So had Markover for lunch and you know him and
Silas you know, came over forfor uh, for lunch. We've spent
some time together and stuff. Sobut again, get another one. I'm
really proud of. You know,he spent there twenty two years. This
is twenty third year in Nebraska.So but yes, he got a great

(58:30):
staff there and they're good, they'rethey've got some they're they're doing well.
So another one I'm proud of.But yes, let's uh we call him
Siggy. Yeah, he's good.So they tried to they try to not
take down on him because many couldturn people, you know, and so
that didn't work out for him becausethey've been taking you know, he'd low

(58:52):
single him and so I didn't workout for him. So yeah, he
was something. He was something.Celebration up Nebraska Omaha Wrestling on October fourteenth,
twenty twenty three. Of course,Mike Denny will be there. He's
been with us. Mike, thanksfor this time. We appreciate it and
let's stay in touch. We're excitedto see how this turns out and hopefully

(59:13):
the next time you're telling us thatyou and I is bringing back college wrestling.
You know, we actually got referees. I've had the referees called me.
You know that referee for the CallbmanBrand. Can we come? I
said, heck, yeah, maybeyou know there might be a few matches
break out anyway, you know itgets going sometimes, he probably will,

(59:35):
I have to referee. And sothey were talking to about having these stations
where they can record. We're goingto record memories. I said, well,
maybe you think we could get themall in a week, So we
might. We might have to takemore than than than the full day that
starts at two o'clock in the afternoon. Sounds good. We appreciate this time

(59:55):
and we'll be following it close andI appre shaite you guys a lot,
Thank you, thank you, thankyou. That was Mike Denny, the
legend fifty four year coaching career.Let's hear from Cliff Keen Athletic. We'll
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off your order of any Cliff Keenheadgear. YEP coupon code on the match
gets you twenty percent off. Andy. The thing with that was there were

(01:01:05):
so many more questions that I hadthat we could have gone down all kinds
of rabbit holes. But you haveto close it down at some point.
But Mike Denny legend fifty four yearshas so much history. I'm still upset
about the way the program dropped.I'm upset that the program got dropped.
I think there was a way tocontinue that going and even going up to
Division one. There's no reason thatthey couldn't have. But still in this

(01:01:29):
situation and a worthy program will finallybe recognized. Couldn't have said it any
better than that, Kyle. Ithink you know, just from the work
that we did on that three partoral history of the program getting dropped it
it was such a shame, andso many things that they could have done
differently, so many avenues that theycould have explored to try to keep that

(01:01:52):
thing going. And here we are, we're talking about a reunion and finally
getting celebrated what twelve years later,which twelve years too late, but it's
good that is happening. Nonetheless,I agree, I hope you'll go.
I know that you like Nebraska Omaha, but I think that maybe you could

(01:02:12):
go by the stadium where they holdthe College World Series. Just go back
there and reminisce about you attending theCollege World Series at some point, a
stadium where I've never attended the collegek I've only been to Rosenblatt. Oh,
well, let's make sure that weget that. On the list of
to do things for us is togo to the College World Series. Fun
show with Mike Denny for Andy Hamilton'sI'm Kyle Klingman. You've been listening on the map