U.S. Open champion Chance Marsteller - OTM661 - On The Mat

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hi. I'm Jason Bryant from theShort Time Wrestling podcast and founder of the
Matt Talk podcast Network. Shows onthe network are individually owned and operated,
and those opinions presented and expressed maynot reflect others, the sponsors, patrons,
or the parent network. Find moreshows about the greatest sport in the
world at the Matt Talk Podcast Networkat matt Talk online dot com. Welcome

(00:29):
to on the Matt I am KyleKlingman of Flow Wrestling along with Andy,
Jay Hammond Hamilton number six for you, Buddy, your sixth award Jay Hammond
Award for Andy Hamilton. My onlyregret on the press release is they didn't
mention your photography skills, which Iam a fan of you are I am

(00:52):
well because I use your photographs somuch and I go to your smug Mugge
account all the time to use picturesor full of wrestling. I think that's
probably an addendum to the body ofwork you've had as a journalist. But
congratulations, Buddy, Thank you,Kyle. I hope you appreciate the award.
I don't know if you knew JayHammond or met Jay Hammond. I

(01:15):
think you have, But any thoughtson him and receiving the award. Jay
was such a valuable resource to me, incredible resource from a historic historical standpoint,
and then also, I mean,you know, incredibly gracious with his
time, incredibly kind. Had achance to work with him on the book
that he did, the History CollegeWrestling, and contributed to that, and

(01:38):
that was a lot of fun.And you know, really, for me,
I'm not sure that there's any awardI could win that would be more
meaningful to me than the one thathas his name on it. And you
need those people, and it's toobad we don't have him around. But
certainly the legacy that you outlined therethe book is what comes to mind for

(02:00):
me. But wrestling stats dot Comsomething I still go to and use as
a resource. I just feel likethat was probably the legacy that will last
the longest. Just having the bracketsD one, D two, D three,
Big ten, have some results inthere from Oklahoma, State, Lehigh.
That's just something that we need asa sport, is statistics. We

(02:23):
don't have the best statistics yet.I want to get to that point,
but I think he was the pioneerfor getting that started and it's something that
I still use every time I goto wrestling stats dot Com, I certainly
think of Jay Hammond and so justglad that you were able to get this
award and keep his legacy alive.Yeah, And like I said, he

(02:44):
was my go to and if Icouldn't find something on Google, if I
couldn't find it quickly and easily,and there were a lot of times where
I couldn't. You know, Iremember when Iowa was putting together pretty good
string of dual meets, or theywent like I think from they dropped that
dual meet in O eight to OklahomaState and then they didn't lose again until

(03:07):
they wrestled Oklahoma State like in twothousand and maybe twelve or thirteen I think
it was. And that's right,And so I would always go to j
and be like, all right,where do they rank? Where does this
rank all time Division one? Howclose are they the record? What are
the other ones that are up there? You know, you couldn't find it
anywhere else, but Jay like,yeah, he'd get back to you within

(03:31):
you know, sometimes within a matterof minutes and have the answer for you.
And that was, you know,stuff like that was always very valuable
for me in trying to add contextto stories I was writing. And so
when all else failed in a searchfor something on a historical front, you

(03:51):
go to JA talking about history andI don't want to be Shane Sparks here.
I don't want to be a prisonerof the moment and try to oversell
this. So let's just put itthis way. The last three weeks of
wrestling have been incredible. Women's Nationals, US Open, and then just the
PanAm Championships were okay, some surprisingresults, but the last three or so

(04:15):
weeks have just been a wrestler's dream. And some of that is some rule
changes that could happen in college wrestling. A big part of that was a
I want to see a completely newformat. But the US Open got some
new life and that if you winthe US Open you have an automatic bid
to Final X, and I thinka lot of people were saying, finally

(04:36):
it should have that type of meaning. Women's Nationals had multiple divisions, notably
the U seventeen, U twenty,and U twenty three. So let's start
with the proposed rule changes, whichyou went to the NCAA meetings in Indianapolis
and you got a front row seatto what happened, What did happen there,

(04:58):
what's going to happen for hollad wrestling? What are the coaches saying about
this? And do you feel likeit's a positive change for the sport?
So, yeah, fourteen rule proposalsthat are on the table right now.
I think we've I think where they'reat. They've wrapped up a feedback period
from coaches where you know, theRules Committee will propose some stuff. It

(05:23):
goes to a two week feedback period, coaches have their chance to weigh in
on it, and then I thinkJune eighth, the Playing Rules Oversight Panel
will meet to decide whether to passthese through or whether to strike them down.
Right now, I think we're onthe verge of what I said is,

(05:45):
you know, the most transformative ruleschange period in the history of the
sport. I can't think of anythingthat even comes close to this. When
you talk about takedowns have been worthtwo points forever basically, And what'd you
say it was in nineteen sixty threewas they played around with a three point

(06:06):
takedown on the first one, notwo point, and then every takedown after
was a subsequent one one point.All Right, they're trying to regulate Oaklahoma
State, take them down, letthem up, and they're trying to to
prevent that from happening. It wasone year, and then at one point
it was just time advantage, sotakedown didn't even count. You could pin

(06:26):
someone. But then it was Ithink if you look at the results,
it's at TA which was time advantage. So hard to believe that that was
actually the rule set at the time, that it would be a time advantage
and that takedowns really wouldn't make adifference, but that's what it was.
So we're we're certainly in a differenterror from that. That's yeah, you
know, we've gone from that tobeing on the verge of killing writing time

(06:50):
altogether. Yeah, you know,and I think they're one step from that
right now with adding the stipulation thatyou must score near fall points to me
to get your writing time point.You know. So I'm not sure how
the effects of the three point takedown. I'm eager to see how that works
out, but I do think,you know, something had to be done

(07:15):
with Top Wrestling, and they didit. They took a couple of steps
with that. The how they readdefined what it says in the rule book,
what the top wrestler is required todo if officials, I'm eager to
see how that is enforced because inthe past what it said was the rule
said the top wrestler must aggressively workto break down the opponent. Now it

(07:40):
says the top wrestler must work fora turn or a pin. And so
if there are writing techniques that arenot leading towards near fall or fall there,
I assume they're going to hit themfor stalling. Top top wrestler will
be called for stalling, and sohopefully that's the case. I think what,

(08:01):
you know, what I want tosee is, like I said,
I want to see more action.I want to see guys showcasing their skills
a little bit more and taking morerisk. Hopefully you see more of that
across the board. I know,and talking to some coaches that there were
some that I've talked to who said, you know, hey, we devote
a lot of time towards tactics ontop to build writing time, and I

(08:24):
don't think they're probably going to bedevoting as much anymore because if you're not
scoring your fault with it, it'sit's it's not going to do a whole
lot of good unless unless it's tofinish a period on top. So what
have you gathered from the coaches aboutthe three point takedown, because I think
that's the big one. I thinkthat's the one that stands out. What

(08:46):
is the I don't think there's aconsensus, but what's the spectrum of what
people are saying about it? Youknow, I was surprised, and I've
talked probably close to twenty coaches sofar, and I think this is one
that's going to go through base donewhat I've heard, like the sample that
I've gotten, I think there's alot of support for it and a lot

(09:07):
of support for it because of somematches we've seen in the past where you
know, one guy will score threetakedowns and and it'll be three takedowns done
none and then it's six to fourin the second period, and the other
guy will will sneak one in asix to six all of a sudden,
and so they want to see theguy who has scored three takedowns be rewarded

(09:30):
with a little bit larger gap there. I think the other part of that
is, you know, with thewith the four point near fall, we've
we've gotten to the point now whereyou get put on your back at the
end of the first period or anypoint in the first period, you're down.
You're down six ZO at the endof the first or whatever, and

(09:50):
it's virtually impossible to come back againstgood wrestler when you're down six ZH.
I mean, we're talking what likefive takedowns there unless you get to turn
your self get some stalling points inthere. So so I think they want
to They want to see comebacks bea little more possible. They also want
to see the guy who has Youknow, they realized the value of a

(10:13):
takedown, how hard they are toget, so if you get two or
three of them, you know,you got to be rewarded by stretching the
gap out a little bit more.I think it surprised me how much support
there was for that. But butyeah, it seems like one that's going
to go through. No talk ofa step out. I wasn't in there
throughout the duration of the meetings,but I think I'm sure they talked about

(10:39):
it. When you're in these meetings, what's the energy. So I was
sitting in on Championship committee meeting forpart of the time I was there,
and then also with the rules Committeea little bit as well, And I
think that, you know, there'sjust a lot of a lot of great
dialogue. You have rules experts inthere, you have officials in there,

(11:03):
you have medical experts in there,and you have coaches on the rules committee
as well, and so you've gota you got a really good sampling of
people looking at stuff from from allangles, and they've got data from the
coaches survey that they look at.They've they've got all sorts of data that
they came through that shows how scoringis down. At the National Tournament.

(11:26):
They showed that you know, technicalfalls, way down falls or down this
is over the course of a tenyear period, takedowns or at a ten
year low. We went from Ithink it was twenty eight technical falls two
years ago down to like I thinkit was like nine this year the National
tournament. And so yeah, there'sI think I said it, you know,

(11:50):
just kind of did the math onmy own, and I found that
scoring at the National Tournament was downnineteen percent since twenty nineteen. So think
they're trying to trying to ramp scoringback up. But you know, your
your question was what was energy?Like I thought it was great dialogue thought
it was in depth discussion and alot of people bringing a lot of different

(12:16):
sides of the issue to the table. And you know, I credit the
Rules Committee for the thoroughness in whichthey operated, and also, you know,
I give him, I give himcredit too for taking a taking a
big swing at it, because youknow, we're very slow to change as

(12:39):
a sport. And my first yeargoing back covering the tournament for the first
time, year two thousand, downin St. Louis, I vividly remember
Jay Robinson sitting at the podium theday before the tournament and he was on
his soapbox talking about how we needto get the National Tournament away from March
madness, and he talked about ayear after year after year, probably the

(13:01):
first five, six, seven,eight years that I covered the tournament,
and then everybody just gave up onit. And here we are twenty four
years later, twenty three, twentyfour years later, and we're still where
we were. And so sometimes wecan be really slow to change and sometimes
too slow to change. And youknow, looking at the television numbers,

(13:24):
seeing that they're down, seeing thatattendance at the National Tournament is down,
I think, you know, ifyou're you're not looking at that data and
saying, hey, what do weneed to change here? I think I
think we're heading down the wrong roadif we if we aren't taking a hard
look at some of this stuff.And so these are just proposals. Though
these are proposals. Okay, Sowhat do you think the chances are these

(13:46):
will go through? I think alot of them will. I think a
lot of them will. Now,I don't have any idea what the coaches
feedback is going to look like,whether uh, it's gonna get sent back.
And hey, I might have Imight have gotten the only you know,
the twenty coaches I've talked to,and I would say, um,

(14:11):
eighty to eighty five percent or infavor of the three point takedown. I
may have talked to the only sixteenor seventeen who who like it. You
know, chances are I didn't.I tried to get a you know,
a broad sampling of of the community, the D one coaching community, and
there there's quite a few that werein favor of that. I think I

(14:33):
was surprised that the writing time thingthere wasn't a lot of pushback on that.
One of the things that surprised meout of all these that coaches seem
to maybe be against is the threepoint near fall. You know, they
want to stick with two and fourand they feel like if we add three

(14:54):
that it's going to create a lotof confusion. You know. They feel
like the gap between two and four, you know, whether you've got a
two count or four count right,Like, you know, primarily right,
so like if you got a twoand a half count, you know you
didn't get to four. The questionis did you get three? Did you
get to three? Right? Ithink they feel like there's going to be

(15:16):
a lot of confusion with that andit's going to create to a lot of
it lead to a lot of videoreview. So that would be the one
that I think, based on thecoaches I've talked to, that that is
my gut feel as the one thatmight get struck down. Huh yeah,
I'd never thought of it in thoseterms. When you think about it,
it does kind of also incentivize thethree point takedown a little bit more that

(15:39):
that's the only three point move thatyou get. So, I don't know,
it seems like a Gallex Spencer Lee. I don't know if it would
have made a difference for him.I think he was gonna be able to
hold him for four seconds for themost part. So yeah, that's interesting.
That's it'll be an interesting rule changeif it gets to that point.
But you're right, it's like writingtime too, Like is it a matter

(16:02):
of half a second with the clockoperator hitting the writing time at the right
time or awarding the takedown at theright time. There is there is some
nuance with that, and I've seenit happen where exactly one minute of writing
time is determined a match, andI think Johnny Hendricks did it once against
Travis Paulson where it was exactly oneminute, and you're you're gonna tell me

(16:25):
that it couldn't have been half asecond off one way or the other.
I think. I think at theBattle of the Bergs this year Tyler Shilson
and uh uh David Hollingsworth, wasn'tit was it a minute at a minute?
I think, yeah, it's possiblethat it was a one one match
that that was a that was adifference maker. So it does play play

(16:45):
a factor. The other one I'mcurious to see whether it gets pushed through
is the two hour way in forduels. Like a lot of people want
to see two hours from from thestandpoint of just more time to prepare after
wands, so it's not a madrush to get get off the scale.

(17:07):
And you know for that first firstcouple of guys that are in the order
to have to really hurry to getready to wrestle. I want to go
back to your point about the writingtime, Kyle, with the clock operator.
That was one of the points thatRob Cole made. Rob Cole said,
I love writing time. I'm atraditionalist, but let's just get rid
of it all together. I wantto see him get rid of it all

(17:27):
together, he goes. He goes, seventy five percent of the problems that
we have with the clock are writingtime. You know, the writing time
goes the wrong way, the writingtime doesn't get stopped on time, the
writing time doesn't get started on time. And that to me is like,
you know, I kind of feltlike we took this step, you know,

(17:48):
this potential step with attaching near fallto it. I think that the
you know, the cleaner thing,the more simplistic thing, would be just
getting rid of it all together.And I don't I kind of don't know
why, you know, I'm notexactly sure why they didn't do that altogether,
but I do feel like if you'reyou're getting near fall now, primarily

(18:11):
I would love to see that.I would I would love to see the
percentages if you score a near falland you've got upwards of a minute of
cumulative writing time percent that you wantthe match. It is a funny suggestion.
So I don't know how valuable thatthat one point is if you scored
the near fall. It is funny, and I can also see that.

(18:33):
Let's say tournament wrestling that Let's takethe national tournament for example. You got
eight mats and everybody's looking at somethinga little bit differently right like that.
You know you might be fixated onMatt one, and then a barn burner
erupts on Matt eight the opposite end, and you know that you see the
writing time clock is over a minute. Do we have some kind of mechanism

(18:56):
in place. It's going to makeit possible for the person sitting in the
upper deck to see the score clockon the far end and know know that
that person scored near fall. Itcould be a ten ten match with no
near fall involved. And then thewriting time point is moot. Yeah,
But do we have some way ofshowing on the scoreboard, like criteria in

(19:18):
freestyle, that that point is isgoing to be attainable? Yeah? I
don't know. And that's why that'swhy I look at it, like,
if you're going to go to theselengths, why not just kill it all
together? Yeah, take the clockoperator out of it, you take human
error out of it, you takeall the review out of it. It

(19:38):
just kind of it's a clean elimination. And now you're just kind of doing
a hybrid of it that kind ofdoesn't make sense. Either do it or
don't do it. But yeah,And one of my fears right now with
some of these rule changes that we'veseen in the last decade in particular,
is we're getting further away from thehigh school rule set and not closer.

(20:02):
Yeah, And I think I thinkthat can be problematic for fans. I
think it can be problematic for alot of officials who are switching back and
forth. And doesn't it feel likewe truly are in a transformative time for
wrestling more so than any other time. Think about how long we've covered the

(20:26):
sport. I never felt like wewere in the midst of something maybe in
the let's say two thousand and five, I never felt like while the sport's
really changing right in front of us. I feel like that right now with
just the era we have, Ithink we're going to be coming out of
the best era of wrestling we've everhad. I don't know if Dacon Taylor,
I think Snyder is going to keepgoing, but we have so many

(20:48):
great wrestlers, Helen down the lineof Tamara Metza Stock just saying that she's
going with a WW and she's notgoing to compete anymore, along with rules
sets and nil and transfer portal,and it just feels like a completely new
sport. Women's wrestling is gaining steam. So you're going to have a freestyle

(21:12):
rule set and a folk style ruleset, and when that's going to be
more of a spotlight. Now thatIOWA has a women's wrestling program, people
are going to start seeing the freestylerule set and what are the traditional fans
going to say when they see that? So it really does feel like we
are in this transformative time. Idon't know if you feel that way,
but it certainly does to me.Well, I feel that way about college

(21:33):
athletics as a whole and some ofthe stuff you're talking about their nil transfer
portal. I mean, it's it'sprevalent in every college sport right now,
you know. And if you're ifyou're slow to move on this stuff,
you're getting left behind. And we'veseen, you know, you see a

(21:55):
program like I think like Iowa football, for example, they were they only
got one player out of the portala year ago. They got they got
a third string tight end, thirdor four string tight end, and that
was there, if I'm not mistaken. Their only addition next year, you
know, the team they've got comingin. They picked up their starting quarterback

(22:17):
from Michigan, they picked up tightend from Michigan, a wide receiver from
Ohio State. They've got they've gottwo offensive linemen. Like they could have
half of their offense next year,their starting offense could be guys that they
picked up out of the portal.You know. Meanwhile, meanwhile year yeah,
I mean, meanwhile, like they'vethey've had an exodus of guys on

(22:40):
the way out too. But butI remember, you know, I brought
up Jay Robinson earlier. I rememberhim telling me one time where they had
lost a This is after they hadtheir run of a couple titles in a
row, and then they missed onsome key recruits that that you know,
were highly highly acclaimed recruits that didn'tquite pan out. And Jay was saying,

(23:03):
like, that's such a back,like two three years, yeah,
because that was in the era whereyou were expecting a guy to come in
in red shirt, and then itwas probably a couple years into the program
before he started making his big impact. It's a little bit different now because
kids are coming out of high schoolready to ready to contend for titles right
away. Some are, and butnow it's like you you have somebody that

(23:29):
you were banking on at a certainweight, and maybe they don't pan out,
maybe they decide after you're one,they're going in the portal. You
could go replace them within a matterof weeks. Yeah, we're we're in
it. We're in wild times forcollege athletics right now. We are.
And and I don't think it's goingto change. I don't think it's going
back. How can it. Idon't think you you fish this back in.

(23:52):
I don't think you throw a lineout and hope you can reel it
back in. I just think it'sgoing to keep going down that path,
and I just think to one ofour favorite stories, and we saw him
at the US Open and on theway back when we're flying back into the
airport from Vegas and the Jesse Whitmer'sstory behind two premier wrestlers, Chad's Appotol

(24:12):
three time finalists, and then MikeMenna, who was a four time All
American. He sat behind him forfour years as a backup, four years,
got his crack as a senior,and then wins the whole damn thing,
wins an NCA championship his senior season. Dan Gabels Swan Song four years
as the backup, one year asa starter, wins it. He wasn't

(24:33):
even a full year as a starterthough, right, It wasn't until he
was full year. It was fullyear, Yeah, because because but Mena
was actually thinking about going back downduring the sea. Yeah, so Mena
was thinking about coming back down.He stayed at one twenty six. But
when you try to ask these guysabout just give us the details, why
did you do it? I don'tthink in their mind there's a lot to

(24:56):
talk about, because I think it'sjust what you did at the time.
Remember Gable saying that about the freshmaneligibility rule when he was in college.
They freshman couldn't compete. He said, that's just what it was, and
we didn't complain about it. Itwas no big deal. So Gable couldn't
give you some depth like, ohyeah, we were so mad about that.
We wanted freshman to compete. Thoseare the rules, that's what you

(25:17):
went with. You shut your mouth, And that's why I think Gable just
can't talk to it that much.So I think now everything's about insight.
What can we get the insight scoopand what are you thinking? And why
are you going to this program?And you see it on social media and
someone else transfers and I want tobe like them, and it's just kind
of a copycat culture where you seeit all the time and all I want

(25:41):
to do that. I think it'dbe fun to go here, or I
have my graduate opportunity to have afinal season, let's go somewhere else because
it could be awesome to be ita bigger program. And it's just the
it's our new normal And I hatethat phrase, but that's what it is
right now. It's just seeing whatyou can get what you can when you
can transfer if you want to programloyalty, I'm not sure that exists as

(26:06):
much as it used to. It'sa two way street, right. One
thing we haven't seen is a wholelot of transfers out of the elite programs
in wrestling, which you see infootball. I mean, like I said,
like like, Ohio State has arguablythe best wide receiver room in the
country in college football. And youknow, Kyle Brown, the guy that

(26:30):
was a four star wide receiver recruitfor the Buckeyes, got a got caught
one pass last year, and sonow he's he's leaving for Iowa because he
sees an opportunity to play right away, which I thought we would see more
of that in wrestling. I thoughtwe would see and maybe we will in
the years ahead. Yeah, butit doesn't seem like we're seeing a lot

(26:52):
of the you know, in thepast, like the period you're talking about,
when guys would leave Iowa, mostoftentimes they were going to like Warburk,
they were going They're going going Dthree, D two level because you
could compete right away or you didn'thave to sit out the full year.
And now now that that rule isnot there anymore, we're seeing you know,

(27:18):
we're you know, I figured wewould see more guys taking shots elsewhere
in Division one when they're blocked behindsomebody, that they would they would transfer.
And Okay, I still want tocrack at this Division one tournament,
but I I might have to gosomewhere else in Division one to get it.
So, with what you're saying there, looking back, do you think

(27:41):
if Steve Maco did what he didback in the day go from Iowa to
Oaklahoma State, would it be asmonumental under today's transf reporter rules? Do
you think we would geek out asmuch and say, wow, he went
from Iowa to Oaklhoma State. Uh, I think it would be a huge
deal. But you know, Imean, we just saw a national champion

(28:07):
transfer this past week. Yeah,and it wasn't like it wasn't like it
shook us to our core, rightYeah. I think so. I think
we've I think we've gotten a littleaccustomed to it. But I still think,
like with Mako, you're talking abouta guy who was the guy in

(28:30):
college dressing, right, I mean, he was had he arrived with so
much hype and then he makes thenational finals as a true freshman at heavyweight
and then takes it up a levelsecond year and dominates his way through the
tournament. The guy going to therival school at the time, because yeah,

(28:52):
I went Oklahoma State. So andI think it begs the question.
I think we may have asked this. I don't know if you've answered it
completely, but if my COO staysat Iowa, does Jim Zeleski keep his
job? It's it's yeah, hemade that big of a difference. So
right now that that move would becomparable to going from Penn State to Iowa

(29:12):
or Iowa to Penn State, That'swhat the Marco move would be at the
time. Well, I'm gonna goback to where we started at the top
with Jay Hammond. Okay, Well, at Wrestling stats dot Com, Maco
didn't wrestle in OH four, correct, he read shirt, which even at
that time, that wouldn't have beenenough for Iowa. Like he could have

(29:33):
scored thirty points, he could havepenned his way through the tournament and they
still would have been second. Okay, and OH five, nobody was touching
Oklahoma State because they had five champs. They had five champs. Marco is
one of them. Marco is oneof them. But let's say it was
a sixty point swing, Iowa,what like i Wall wasn't within sixty so

(29:57):
oh six, And that's the yearhe got let go correct And after that
season. After that season, afterthat season, Maco was second runner up
Cold Conrad and Iowa didn't have anAll American there. Iowa was fourth,
was seventy points fifty two and ahalf back. And it took a lot

(30:21):
to get the fourth, didn't it. That was the year Ty Eustace was
a runner up. Okay, um, yeah they had they had a pretty
decent tournament, not a great tournament, but but I don't know that.
Yeah, maybe maybe I you know, if if macOS in the lineup,
I was probably second place team.Yeah, and it certainly helps the crowds,

(30:45):
I would think, just attendance andthe buzz for the program. So
it's hard hard to say, butyeah, that's he was a transformative wrestler
of that era. There's no doubtthat was huge news. That was huge.
So but I do think the differencebetween Shane Griffith going from Stanford to
Michigan, because you really are talkingabout I mean, what would the copper

(31:10):
ballt would it be Spencer League goingto Penn State or Aaron Brooks going to
Iowa. Would that be that wouldbe your shattering Yeah, if that happened,
If one of those two things happened, or David Taylor going to Iowa,
you pick anything you want. Butthe the dude of the era,
and Steve Maco was the dude,and that was a big deal at the

(31:33):
time. And I'm pretty sure youwere covering at that point, and I
think you can speak to how bigof a deal it was for that transfer
to happen. I was in Hawaiiwhen he announced it, Like I was
on this crazy run of every timeI go to Hawaii, something big on
one of my beats would break,and that was that was. I remember

(31:57):
waking up to that news on oneday over there, and of course you're
five hours behind over there, andso yeah, so yeah, that was
I think I think we kind ofall understood once he once he said he
was asking for a release that youknow, you don't you don't take that
step unless you're you know, AndI think I think with maca we all

(32:19):
knew where he was going to goanyway. I mean, for the most
part, I mean, the onlythe only place that I thought he could
wind up besides Oklahoma State would beVirginia Tech with Tom because there was a
great relationship between him and Tom,and and uh, you know, but
but I think like the success OklahomaState was having at the time as a

(32:44):
team, and then Steve doesn't makethe Olympic team, and uh, it
became it became pretty apparent once heasked out, asked for his release,
where he was going to go.You're listening to on the Mat sponsored by
Cliff Keen Athletic. We've been talkingabout rule changes, so let's shift our
focus to the US Open and exhilarating. I thought there were great storylines,

(33:07):
whether it was Ruling Gardener at agefifty one attempting a comeback doesn't make weight
to Gable, Steveson making a comeback, to Spencer Lee wrestling in the tournament
and forfeiting after the quarterfinals that forfeiteda semifinal match, yep, and so
tons of storylines. I think theaction was fantastic. There was a lot

(33:30):
on the line. The seventy sixkilogram women, I think you have the
best five women in the world atthat weight class, whether it's Kennedy Blades
all the way down to Kylie WelkerAdline Gray was their Adline Grays match against
Diamond Gueldford. I've never seen anythinglike it. Up eight to zero and
within I think it was sixteen seconds. That's twelve seconds, okay, twelve

(33:52):
seconds. If you get three cautionand ones, you're disqualified. And as
a matter of twelve seconds that AdelineGray won. That got three in a
row, so it was eight tosix on the scoreboard, but you're disqualified.
Stephen just saying that right now.It's such a stunning result in a
stunning match, and just even goingdown the line there, Kylie Wucker was

(34:14):
ahead of Diamond Guildford before that eightto zero and then got panned. Just
fantastic wrestling in that weight class.But overall thoughts about that before we get
two chance Marsteller who won the seventynine kilogram weight class, and we'll russell
Jordan Burrows at Final X. ButI thought a fantastic tournament all the way
around. There was something really tolook forward to every day, you know

(34:36):
when we're out there, I meanespecially like you know, we were so
amped up about the freestyle end ofthings and what we were going to see,
the stakes being so high that youknow, some of these weight classes,
what only only what sixty one andninety two and one twenty five?

(35:01):
Do you have a safety net there? Otherwise you lose at any point in
the tournament fifty seven, sixty five, seventy seventy four, seventy nine,
eighty six, ninety seven. Youlose at any point in the tournament in
Vegas, your hopes of making theworld team are done. And so Pantalio
he gets pinned in the first roundand that's all for twenty twenty three and

(35:23):
his world team hopes. Yeah.So, and that was set up that
way in a lot of instances onthe women's front too, And so I
thought there were, to your point, tremendous storylines the young ladies who made
the made it to Final X onthe women's side. Hats off to them,

(35:43):
the way they came out and scrappedand found ways to win tough matches
and come from behind and against highlyaccomplished opponents. I thought, you know,
Kennedy Blades looked fantastic to pick Adelineapart like she did. I felt,
like, you know, I thoughtthe match played out kind of the
way I thought it might. Idon't know about you, but there were

(36:08):
some moments in there in Adeline hasthis way of like you can see her
giving up. We've seen it timeand time again throughout her career, Like
she will give up multiple takedowns,she will fall behind, and when she
gives her puts herself in placed toget on top and hook up a lace
like or or run a bar orsomething like that, or or push someone

(36:31):
out three times in a row intwelve seconds. Like she just has this
there's magic magic about her that itcan look really bad for Adeline and yet
she can still find a way toreverse a match very quickly and win.
And when you said young ladies,you are right about that because they we

(36:51):
have this youth movement who are challengingthe veterans of this sport. Whether it's
Audrey Himinez who's going to be inFinal Lex again, Sarah Hildebrandt, Katie
Gomez at fifty three kilograms, AdogoWichukwu who's still in the U twenty division
she's gonna wrestle Kayala Miracle. Thoseare the ones that come to mind for
me of what we have a lotof promise in the women's freestyle front with

(37:15):
high school to young college wrestlers,and I think, what was it,
nine of the ten were U twentythree eligible. Nine of the ten.
So if that doesn't show you theyouth movement we have right now, that
that's just that's an incredible stat andit's fun to watch how women's wrestling is

(37:37):
progressing, not only in the collegefront, but the domestic international front.
The incumbents better be ready to finals. And we started with PanAm Games or
PanAm Championships. It's not PanAm Games, it's PanAm Championship. Not a good
showing for the women. Helen gotninth, got knocked off in the quarterfinals,
and then the opponent that beat herdid not make it through. Kayla

(38:00):
Miracle got beat, she got pinneddown. Parish went one and two,
was in the bronze medal match andgot beat. So they really better be
ready because these girls that we justmentioned, they are not taking a backseat
to anyone. And Sarah Hildebrandt didlook fantastic. Boy she I don't know
if there's a better leg lace inthe world than what she has. It

(38:21):
is just it's incredible what she's ableto do once she gets on top.
So it certainly wasn't the showing thatthe US women wanted, but some good
results for the men, some prettygood results for the Greco side. So
it's hard to tell on the PanAm Championships though, because you don't know
what you're getting. You're you're doingit, so you get that qualification spot
for the World Championships, but it'sit's a mixed bag on who you get

(38:45):
there. Yanni's match, I don'tknow if you watch the nine eighth match,
went back to watch that. Thatwas a good match in in his
home country, and that was thethe guy that actually, yeah Penzane and
stopped us from our streak of havingan Olympian in the men's freestyle every year
since it's an inception. So alot of fun things going on. Probably

(39:08):
need to get to Chance. Butany final thoughts before we wrap this up,
I don't have any. I'm justlooking forward to this conversation with Chance
Marsteller and you know, a lotof interesting things for us to talk to
talk to him about. I meanwhen you talk about his journey and wrestling,
it's been incredible from this teenage phenomto a guy that was a pound

(39:32):
for pound number one in his classand then goes through some really hard times
in college and digs his way outof it and incredible redemption story. And
now what he's what he's doing notjust as a competitor, but also as
a club coach and man. Hisclub is picking up a lot of traction

(39:52):
in a hurry and they're having alot of success. So I mean,
I'm eager to hear what Chance hasto stay. Can't wait to talk to
Chance Marstellar. Thanks to Cliff KeenAthletic for sponsoring on the Matt. Let's
here from him and we'll be backwith Chance Marstellar next this spring. Get
into the freestyle, greco and clubwrestling seasons with some new uniforms from Cliff

(40:15):
Keen. Cliff Keene has everything youneed to hit the mats, from singlet's
headgear and warmups to kneepads and workoutgear. Don't forget on the Matt.
Subscribers can also save big at CliffKeen dot com. Go to Cliff Keene
dot com and use coupon code onthe mat at checkout and take twenty percent
off your order. You heard thatright. Coupon code on the mat gets

(40:37):
you twenty percent off and there isno deadline. To order for on the
mattlisteners, just go to www dotCliff Keene dot com and click shop Wrestling.
Our guest today recently won the USOpen. He is going back to
final x two time All American forLockhaven Chance Marstellar. How are you chants?

(41:00):
Hey man, I'm doing good andexcited to be on today. Thanks
for having me. We're excited tohave you on. And when you win
a big tournament, how long doesthe buzz last? Not this one,
this one not particularly long. Youknow, it's uh, you know,
it's really exciting. But I runmy own club. So as soon as
I won, we had guys makingwait the next day, and it was

(41:23):
kind of time ago, you know, focus on them, make sure they're
making wait for their U seventeen andtwenty trials. So kind of got done
and got right back to work.How do you feel like you wrestled?
You had during her a great matchthere. You knew he was going to
be tough, but just maybe walkthrough the entirety of the tournament. And

(41:44):
how you felt you mean, Imean, I felt I felt pretty good.
Concerned in fact, you know,leading into the week, it was
a little scary at the beginning ofthe week. I h I was at
home really sick on Sunday and Monday, just with like something like a fever
and swill. And um, that'skind of getting nervous a little bit because

(42:07):
I was sick. And then Igo out there and I thought, I
felt though, like, you know, everything was kind of clicking, clicking
right now I should and um,you know, I felt I felt that,
uh, with what we're doing everygame and practice and whatnot, like
it's it's showing up on the mat. I feel like my presence on the
mat like, um, guys arehaving trouble staying in the center with me.

(42:29):
Um as compared to years in thepast. I thought, I thought,
my map, presence and my pressure, Uh, we're good. How
well did you know Alex Deringer?I think he mentioned that or maybe even
you mentioned that you guys maybe hadsome crossover at Oklahoma State. How well
did you guys know each other?I mean Alex and I go way back.
I mean we, uh, weused to live together at Oklahoma State

(42:51):
UM for a good bit of thetwo years that I was there. So
Alex and I, I would say, you know, besides compete against each
other, we've always been a prettygood friends. So we know each other
well, you know, we werecollage teamates for a little bit of time,
and then I've I've lost you know, I don't know. I don't

(43:12):
know how many times, way toomany to count, probably five times over
the course of my freestyle career.How do you make that switch to wrestle
someone that you know well, thatyour friend, How do you make that
switch happen? You know, Imean besides knowing well we're being friends.
I think I think the switch thathappens, you know, im is you

(43:37):
know, ever since I got cleanedsober, like, my wrestling has been
different. It's been back to theway it was. I feel like when
I was a kid. You know, I'm able to finish matches. I'm
able to control the mat and bestrong on my positions and just have a
much higher mental fortitude and much higherbelief in myself and belief and you know,

(44:00):
the people around me and knowing howmuch they believe in me. You
know, I think that's the difference, um, and how I prepared going
into that match. Um. Youknow, alexaid it used to be he
used to beat me up pretty good, like at most of the tournaments.
I've been TechEd by him multiple times. Um, we've wrestled once since I've

(44:21):
been cleaning sober and it was lastyear. The used to open on the
backside. And to be honest,it was this tough day. I was
up eight o in the semis andtook a took a tough loss in the
semis when I was up by likeeight points on mc sadden. And you
know, a backside match is sometimesa little half hearted, and I know
it wasn't like a true representation ofwhat I was ready to bring to the

(44:42):
match last week. So um,you know, all being said is I
feel like, uh, just beliefmore than anything. It was there,
and that's that's the flip side ofit. Belief and knowing that I'm doing
all the right things in life.Um, it's a big thing. You

(45:04):
mentioned your high school career, youryouth career. You were the big dog
coming out of high school, Youwere the number one recruit, everyone buzzing
about you. How much pressure didyou have on you? Excuse me coming
out of high school. Um,you know, I think I think there
was a good bit And you know, I never not that I never noticed
that knew was there, but Ihad always welcomed it. I'd always loved

(45:28):
the pressure. You know, Ialways felt like when little spotlight was when
I put one brother and then youknow, I was you know, when
when I kind of went down thetwisted path. It's like, you know,
you feel pressured to and have troubleidentifying as other things in life.
And so you know, once youstart feeling that pressure is having trouble identifying
as other things and and always caringwhat about what other people think of you?

(45:52):
Like that, that's when the pressuregets created, you know. And
um uh you know, so Iown it was it was easy to buy
pass that stuff and not feel thatum as compared to later on chance,
what got you through your toughest times? Um, I would honestly say I

(46:15):
attributed to a few things. Onemy my wife and kids. Um,
you know, they really are youknow, unwaivering, you know, complete
un waivering support. And m mywife is stuck buying me through a lot
of stuff. And my sons theydon't really know any better, but um,
you know, if you don't havethem always kind of by my side,

(46:36):
you know, and knowing that Iwant a better life for them,
um than I could ever have youknow that that's one big step. And
then obviously on the first side iswrestling in general. Um and just like
the life lessons it teaches you.And like I said before, I meant
before to dude, I feel likeit's like come back greatly since getting clean
so over so part of that notthe floor too, you know, it's

(47:00):
it's it's and still you at ayoung age and the sport of wrestling when
you really love wrestling, And um, I attribute a lot of just those
mental skills and life skills I learnedat a young age to be Yoda helped
me out, um. And thenas well as like the rest of my
support system that, um, youknow, the people who have really helped

(47:22):
me rebuild my life. So youmentioned wrestling has played such a pivotal role
in this for you. Was thereever a point where you wanted to walk
away from it? So yeah,I mean, like there was that time
when I was at Oklahoma statee andyou know, I remember making a post,
uh, you know that I wantedto be done with wrestling and be

(47:44):
done with the pain like of ofwrestling and that and again, like I
don't really think like you know Iwrite, I think I wrote that back
then was that twenty it was intwenty sixteen or something a long time ago,
and but like I remember sitting therefor a few months, like not
knowing what to do with myself aboutrastling, Like I absolutely love the sport,

(48:06):
um, like every little thing aboutit, like in and out,
up and down all around. Likeyou know, I have trouble having conversations
with my wife's um, you knowI have, or any of my friends
if it's not about rasseling, justbecause it's it's just a big because I
don't want to just identify as Russler, but something that I truly truly love.

(48:28):
Um. I don't think i'd bewhere I am the day if I
didn't really love it, you know. So I think there was that time,
you know, I said, youknow, I was posting stuff maybe
crying out for attention when I wasstruggling. UM, but truly my heart
of heart's like I don't think Ireally could ever know what to do without
without it. You've been so openand honest about your drug addiction. Why

(48:52):
why have you been so open andhonest about it? And why do you
feel like it's uh, it's importantto be transparent about what you've gone through
and uh for for a few reasons. First off, and hold me accountable.
Um, it's the biggest thing.Like, you know, I'd got
in trouble a lock aven and andI was just doing what people wanted me

(49:12):
to do and being quiet. Butreally I was beating around the bush and
and not open about it because Iknew like I wasn't I didn't really want
to do so I didn't really wantto do that. I didn't really think
I had issues. Um, soI realized I really did, you know,
And and knowing that I do,I know part of being open and
honest, like it keeps people umin the nose and and by doing that,

(49:37):
you know, it holds me responsible. You know, it's it's uh
help, it helps me. Ithelps me a lot. I helped by
talking about it to other people.Then on the flip side of it is
like I hope people hear my messagebecause my life is much better this way,
like like the things I'm able todo, the things I get to
enjoy in life, U you know, or it's just so much better this

(50:00):
way. And that the other thingis I wish I knew someone who told
me, you know, they wereaddicted to as badly to hope always as
I was, and then able togo make the Olympic trials like a few
months later, you know, getclean and go make you other trials er
and in two years winning World Caromtrials like the three years go back to

(50:22):
final acts again and hopefully you knowthis part of the stories where you know,
I win the world you know,winning World trailers year, like that's
you know, I want somebody knowlike it is all possible, like you
know, just just because I meandoesn't mean I can't you know, still
achieve all my goals just because stuffI've done the past. And you know,

(50:43):
I sometimes wish there was more peoplewho were open about it when I
was going through it, so thatthey could have showed me like, hey,
there's been other people who have succeededand done the things you want to
do in life and after they gotthrough, you know, the things you're
struggling with. And so by sharingthat message like I hope it helps other
people, you know, and byhelping other people against full circle, like

(51:06):
being open about it helps me.So how often is this a talking point
with you and your club guys andtrying to help them avoid the pitfalls that
you encountered. You know, Ihave a couple of sayings for my club
kids, and you know, umsome like one of the one of the
main ones I say, like whenthey say like what why do you coach?
And I tell people I coach becausemy goal is to make my athletes

(51:29):
as successful as they can be inthe sport achieves everything they won the sport
without all the mistakes. You know. So I feel like I've been pretty
successful in the sport to get themto where they need to get to.
And I feel like I live theother side of that life where I can
also you know, I can quicklysee the things that maybe the parents can't
see or maybe other coaches can't see. Um. You know, these these

(51:52):
older middle school kids and these highschool kids, like they think they're sneaky
or they think they're you know,just you know, kids are and we
think we know how the world workswhen we're young, and and we don't.
And just by hiring somebody who Iguess you could fail, almost like
a street veteran, like I knowwhen I see it, um, you

(52:15):
know it, I can quickly helphelp that kid that you redirect. And
then and then the kids. Idon't have to redirect, right, I
just keep them out in the lineof you know, doing the stuff that
I should have been doing when Iwas their age, right, Um,
And so I mean it's it's abig part. Like it's a big message
in the club. Like I don'ttalk about every single day because you know,

(52:37):
we talk a lot about USSEL andother things are grades and stuff.
But it all gets tied in together. And again, like I said earlier,
it's like it's full circle, right, how how it all comes about?
You know, if I can ifI can keep them from doing the
stuff I did and teach them thethings I know about wrestling, they're gonna
be pretty good. They're gonna bepretty successful in life as well. When
did you first start using drugs?And then when did it transition into abuse?

(53:01):
Say that again, When did youfirst start using drugs? And then
when did it transition into abuse?Uh? You know, I mean it
was a young age, like Iwas, like, you know, really
late in middle school, really earlyin high school when I started getting into
stuff like like stuff and you know, I think you know you talked about

(53:22):
like when did it turn into abuse? I don't know when it really ever
turned into it because like what,I think, I have the personality where
everything I do and life is kindof full Colottle. And you know,
when I started using this or that, and um, you know, so
it I always amplified it. Soyou know, I don't like what I

(53:44):
think. It's more the question ofyou know, like as I started getting
out of high school and into collegeis when it started to have the major
effects on my life that were seeableto everyone else around me, you know,
And I think that's that's really answerthere. Um. So you know
that you know, using it andhaving enough you know, affecting my daily

(54:08):
life, affecting those around me,and um, so you know I would
I would say, like I didn'tnotice it having an effect on my life
until again, as I started gettinginto college and and whatnot. But I
think it was always there. Itwas always slightly affecting me, like just

(54:28):
you know, there's not nothing reallygood that comes with being an addict.
Um, so it was just momwasn't noticeable to me, and it took
a while. Well, you mentionedbeing open and honest about it, how
that helps you. But what thingsdo you have to do daily to overcome
the addiction? Just to make sureyou don't fall back into that trap.

(54:49):
Uh. I mean, I meanfor me again, like I already you
know, we we had just talkedabout this, me being open, me
talking about it openly. Um,it's probably one of one of the big
of things. Again, it holdsme accountable. It reminds me of to
live in and now you know whereI came from, where I'm out now
and where I want to go.Um. And then lastly, just like

(55:13):
uh, you know, I I'mI'm involved in AA and in A and
and again I share with I sharewith people my story. Like I think
those are the main things I dothat that helped me. But then you
know, I live a pretty busyand consistent lifestyle, very regimental lifestyle,
m especially Kevin, running a cluband training and having a family. Um.

(55:37):
But uh, you know, Ithink the biggest thing though, but
that's helped me is like I havea very tight inner circle. Um.
There's people who know every in andout of my life and I'm not strat
to share that with them. Anduh, and I put those people in
my life because they're you know,they're they're the build They're they're the structure.
There's the building box in my lifeand they hold me accountable. Um.

(56:00):
I talk all the time about youknow, having you know, if
if I'm gonna have a relationship inthis life, you know, it needs
to be mutually beneficial. Can ICan I benefit you? And can you
benefit me? A one way streetone way or the other normally isn't too
good, um for for anybody.So uh, you know, having the
having those strong building blocks, havingthose strong structures of life, the strong

(56:22):
pillars, meaning you know, mycircle of people that have helped me build
put my life back like they're thatprobably probably the biggest uh key component you
know to my sobriety today. Tellus about your wife and what she means
to you. Oh, my wife, she's right here. She's she's uh,

(56:44):
I mean, she's awesome. Sheum, she's the glue you know
she uh she keeps everything in line. Uh. You know, I have
to laugh when I hear these thesejokes on online, on reels or tiktoks
about you know, why would Iwould the school call? I think to
call the dad first and not themom. You know, like that's kind
of how my life is. Youknow, she's the uh, she's the

(57:07):
one who's organized she's the one whomakes sure our kids. You know,
I work. She makes sure thekids have everything they need at old times.
UM makes sure she makes sure Ihave my head screwed on straight and
I know where I'm going. Youknow, she's she's in. She's in
and out of every single weight cutI've ever had. You know, she's

(57:28):
she's the cook, she's the mailplanner. Um. You know, there's
there's so much stuff that she does. She's there's m stuff she does for
our club kids that that they don'teven realize. She you know, she
may not go to club lesson mysome club every day, but she's she's
the team mom about everybody realizing thatshe's she's some other club goes around.
Um, you know, and shedoesin'e miss miss a beat. And I'm

(57:50):
lucky enough that she puts up inmy crazy self and and uh that she
cares enough about me and and andlearned the sport of wrestling, um an
order you know, to keep upkeep up with things I care about.
So UM, yeah, she's she's, like I said, she's the goal
of the family. How do youbalance all that? Though you just mentioned

(58:12):
three things their family club training tobe on a world team possibly winning a
world championship. How do you balanceall of it? I'll tell you that
the main, the main way tobalance is is you know, I truely,
I truly truly love what I do, like I love myself rampant sometimes
and sometimes you know, I overdoit or most of the time I overdo

(58:32):
it, But you know, Iget through it more so because because I
love it. Like I can't.I can't go practice and then go to
club and just watch my club kidsdrill and do what I tell them to
do, like I have to havemy hands on. I have to be
wrestling with them. I go livewith my club kids every night, like
you know. I you know,I know a lot of coaches, like

(58:53):
I say, it's that that aren'twilling to do that, and um,
you know, like uh, andI just you know, you find ways
around it. I tell my guy, I tell the people I work with
all the time, Like you know, they say there's not enough time in
the day. Well, I'm like, you gotta find time, you gotta
make time, you gotta prioritize,you know. So I'm in the car.

(59:14):
I drive an hour and a halfeach way to my artc's and I
got forty minutes from the other directionto my club, so you know,
you know, I get a lotof business work done on my phone calls,
like you know, all that time, you know, and when I
come home, you know, likeI mean, I have to do some
work when I at home. Butyou know, you try to you try
to be in the moment with thekids or the wife or you know.

(59:37):
Um, but you know, itdoesn't it doesn't work if you don't love
what you're doing, you know,Like I mean, I think I'm able
to pull it all off because Itruly care about what, you know,
the things I'm doing, and andI love it and I want to help
others. Um and uh again,I have that that mentality. You know,
it's um kind of full throttle.Like I I don't want to just

(01:00:01):
be another Russell on the senior circuit. I want to be an on Go
meta list. I don't want tojust be another club coach. I want
the best club in the country.Um. You know, I don't want
to just be some bum dad.You know. I want to see my
family thrive. I want to seemy my kids do well in school.
And you know, I see theleft you happy, like so those things

(01:00:22):
being said, you know you hyou find time and you make it work
like that's and you know, um, and it's you put those people that
care about you in your life.What you do right like it's you know,
it's reciprocated, so it ends upall working out. And again that's
that's where it goes back to thoseusually beneficial relationships instead of want my streets.

(01:00:44):
You said win an Olympic gold medal. I think you said in an
interview, You're going up to eightysix kilograms. Is that right? Oh
yeah, yep. How are yougoing to fill into that weight next year?
I mean I already walk around morethan most of the time, like
seventy nine seventy one, the prettyhard cuts from um, so that's a
great weight for me. But uh, I don't I don't think it's much

(01:01:05):
of an issue of filling it in. I mean, I'm short and stocky,
but as far as wait, like, uh, I'm already you know,
most days I wake up and alreadyhave to lose weight for a six
cum us so, um, youknow, I don't really lift or anything.
I think there's a lot of thingsthat can add into my regiment.
Um as I as I train changefrom cunning weight to going up await,

(01:01:29):
Um, that'll be you know,uh effective for what I need to do.
Next year, you have another chanceat Jordan Borrows. You went to
three matches last year, you tooka match from the seven time World an
Olympic champion. How are you gameplanning for Jordan Borrows this year? You

(01:01:50):
know, I think, uh,you know, Gordon's obviously great. Um.
I think last year going into it, I'd rested the multiple times,
but it's against one of those thingslike I I hadn't beaten him yet,
you know. And and I thinkthat's the difference between this year and that
and last year is you know,uh, again there's belief and then there's
no right like I've I've done itbefore, so I know I can do

(01:02:14):
it again, and I know Ican do it multiple times, you know.
I think that's the big thing is, you know, like that really
strong belief and that changing from beliefto knowing. Um. You know,
uh, I've I've had my eyeslocked on getting these matches back, um
since last year, since last June, Like uh, when when we hum

(01:02:36):
three and Ken across and I whenwe're doing technique every day like even as
we're preparing for US Open, likeI, uh, all the competitors are
not a really great competitors. Noguys are in our world rankings all the
time. But uh, but allthe techniques like like we've been working on
stuff, like I haven't changed.It's it's for Jordan, you know,
it's to go get Jordan. Soum, you know I've I've been obsessive

(01:02:59):
over the of wanting my matches backwith him and taking that wilding spot.
So um, you know, Inever really wavered from our process. And
then what tournaments we're going to,when we're going to Egypt or going to
Croatia or genera the US Open,it will still be Jordan, you know,
so you know, get back,you know, make this world team

(01:03:20):
like to fool you have to doum. So so the focus has never
wavered and and uh you know theexcitements there uh, and there's not much
you know, and the knowings there. So there's not not much more I
think, you know, you cando in preparation than that. And it's
unique to have a best of threeseries all in one day. Wrestling doesn't

(01:03:44):
have that too much, even atthe World Championships. If you get beat
you're on the back side. Hopefullysomeone pulls you through. But what is
it like to go through a bestof three series and then have it go
to three matches? You know,I think, I mean, it's learning
how to read set. You know. Um, I listened to Jordan's one
interview from last year, you know, and I mean, obviously he's an

(01:04:05):
intelligent wrestler, and and listen towhat he said about me after I beat
him from match two and him goinginto match three, Um, you know,
just about having to do it again, and about you know, you
know, I've always lived on youknow, wrestling, not too high on
my highs, not two of mylow row on my lows. But and

(01:04:27):
all that means it's kind of ridingthat way in the middle and constantly resetting,
resetting focus even in the middle ofthe match, you know, welcome
back to the middle after a pointscored on you or even after you score
point is resetting. And I think, you know, from match from one
to match two, we had along break. I was able to reset,
refocus, that reset and refocus Obbaswas a lot shorter, you know,
it's black. It was less thanhalf an hour between match two and

(01:04:49):
match three has compared to a fewhours on the other one. So,
um, you know when you sowhen the rest of the best of the
three series like arrest and you know, we want to wrap it up in
two. But regardless, it's Ithink I think it's a matter of constant
focused, constant refocused, constant resettingum and and treat treating it, treating

(01:05:15):
it that way. So um yeah, just you mentioning Jordan Burrows in that
interview, do you pay attention towhat other people say about you? Um?
You know, I I love wrestling, so I kind of always have
my hands in the pop somewhere andI'm always listening and looking and watching.

(01:05:36):
Um, I care a lot lessthan I used to. I know,
you know, no matter what myheart of hearts of what I'm capable of
doing, um, the life I'mliving and well again, what the people
around me I actually care about meknow that I can do. So I
don't really listen anymore. I listenmore so on the fact of like where
can I gain knowledge? Um?Yeah, yeah, So it's it's it's

(01:06:00):
more about, you know, issomeone saying something insightful or um? And
if they're not, you know,quickly recycle it back and going forward.
Who are some of the people thatgive you the best insight? I mean
obviously my coach is UM again,I can go across from somethings I think
are some of the greatest minds inwrestling. Um, the things they've been

(01:06:24):
able to help me do over thepast past few years. And then a
coach Blanca who is the Alberni Universityhad coach at the D three score I
help out at where I run myclub. Um, he's a guy I
trust with most of my life onand off the mat. Uh. Dudes,
dude, super intelligent when it comeswhen when it when it comes to

(01:06:45):
getting your mind right for anything.Um, you know. And there's obviously,
you know, just other people likemy again, like my wife or
doc nas who's my you know,my physical therapist, like people like that
who truly have like a care forme. I want to see me succeed,
Like those are the those are thepeople I listen to. UM.
You know, I used to youknow, I used to used to care

(01:07:06):
what the haters say. I don'tyou know, I realize it's always going
to be there no matter no matterwhat you do. Would you tell us
more about Kendall Cross and how heapproaches the sport in his coaching style.
Yeah, I mean so, um, you know, Okay, Kendell's type
of coach who uh and and Valentineas well. Valentine's you know, our

(01:07:27):
other RTC coach at NYC, andhe's awesome too, but they, uh,
they both approach it like, uh, you know, at this level,
man, it's it's a game.It's it's not it's not just wrestling.
It's not just scrapping anymore. It'sit's a game. Um. And
it's like I tell I called kidsall the time. You know, a
lot of times the guy who's gota little bit of shape under him and
the smarter wrestler will normally win thematch. And I think that's the kind

(01:07:49):
of approach that you know, Kendalltakes towards me. It's like you know,
and towards most of our guys.It's it's, uh, you know,
he'll take film and he'll just he'llhe'll break it taking the little nuances
um and he uh, you know, he he's great at basically catering to

(01:08:10):
your style, you know, likehe I don't I think he knows I'm
not going to be like him andgo out and double overs and in tight
trip everybody every match. You know, he's been out there teaching me how
that that's how can we how canwe tie in this stuff that these trends
that we're seeing, How can wetie them into what you do? Good?
What are you year? Strong suits? And how do we tie them
in? And I think the bestyou know best coaches wrestling and our guys

(01:08:30):
who coach like that, taking onethe wrestlers are good at making them even
better at it, tying things intoit um and then taking their weaker points
and making them like strong and theweaker points. So, uh, you
know that that's what Kendall does.And Kendall. The one other thing I'll
say about Kendall that that I've beenaround coaches in the past, UM that
aren'tlike Kendall. Um. Kendall's likehe's an emotional creature. UM as far

(01:08:56):
as like he's he he cares aboutwhat you you were feeling as the athlete.
So you know, uh, kennland I can connect. I feel
like on a much deeper level.Like he he says the little things.
It's it's less about what he's teaching. It's more about what he's saying to
me, Like, you know,he says the little things that that remind
me that, you know, I'mgood enough to win this thing, and

(01:09:18):
and uh, I'm good enough todo the things that I do, or
just you know, but it's it'sthe way he says, the way he
approaches it, the way he youknow, kind of kind of looks at
you, and he cares for youemotionally rather than just coaching the athlete.
Just athletic relationship, you know.Um, And actually I feel like that's
important. Who are your training partners? Uh? So, um, my

(01:09:44):
two main training partners weren't anyone,you know. So I'm a dual athlete.
I'm with NYCRTC and I training toj RTC, so I'm with both.
So half the week I'm mostly withMitch Fineseler, who was absolutely awesome,
one of the best drillers in thecountry. Great Wrestlers European Bronze Battle
List. He's placed at most tothe uh he placed a couple of Ranking
Series events. Now he's all man, a try duke. Um, and

(01:10:09):
he's just a down like good person. And on the other end of it,
when I'm down at NJRCI. Mymain training partner is, uh is
Nate Jackson. And you know Nateobviously a stud top time in the world.
Um and bigger than me too,so you know, completely different fields.
Um so those are those are mymain two guys that I go with,
Um on a consistent basis. I'dlove to see Nate Jackson go at

(01:10:32):
it. What does that look like? Uh? It looks like completely contrasting
styles and it teaches that anybody canwrestle. You know, I'm about as
you know, I'm about as shortand wide as as they come from my
weight, and he's about as talland ranking and explosive as they come.
And uh, you know it justwe are a super contrast and um you

(01:10:56):
know, uh, it all dependson what day it is, you know.
Uh, but I would say Nateis the one person in this world
who takes my heart rate in themiddle of training to another level. Um.
You know that actually mimics that mimicsrealistic and match wrestling. So um

(01:11:20):
that's uh. Yeah. When Nateand I go out of you know,
it's always on a percent effort andand it's just you know, we hate
to we hate to give each otheran inch. Why is it that he's
able to raise your heart rate likethat to get you into a match like
situation. Um, again, I'dsay it's it's it's for what I said
that at the end, it's like, uh, just you know, we're

(01:11:41):
really good friends, but you knowthe best of friends of the want to
hold each other accountable. And heuh, like I said, he,
I'm pretty sure he thinks the sameway I do. We have we have
the same goals and uh. Andlike I said, we hate to give
each other an inch because we knowwhen you give one, like anybody you
know one if I whether it's himgiving it to me or me giving him

(01:12:03):
an inch, like you know wewere taken, we run with it and
and the match weed changes or andum. Like like when you have when
you have people like that, youknow, going going with each other every
day, like like there's there's gamesthat are going to happen. Do you
still use outside sources of conditioning?Do you still run? Do you still

(01:12:26):
get on the airde how do youget in shape outside of the map?
And more than more than anything Iwrestled, get in shape? And that's
you know, a message I thinkto most of these young wrestlers, is
that you want to be a betterwrestler, you wrestle. Um, that's
that's the note. You know,I feel like I took um when I
was a young kid. You know, I was always like kind of minded
like the foreigners they don't they don'tdo a ton of lifting or a ton

(01:12:47):
of this or that they wrestle.And uh, I always remember that from
when I was a kid, Soweren't anything I pick up my wrestling.
Um, and uh, you know, if I do do like cross training,
or maybe I don't run, butlike maybe you know, if it's
I do a lot of jump upand if I if I do air adine,
or if I do I do alot of arm work like arm bikes

(01:13:10):
and stuff. But like whatever Ido, I try to I tell my
guys all the time that club aswell is like that I do whatever you
do and tie it to wrestling.Like if you're gonna pick up a weight,
like I don't really lift, I'lldo some cross string but like if
you're gonna pick up a weight,like, what does it do to mimic
wrestling? Because does it help yousuck a legan? Does it help you
blow off the line? On ashot. Does it help you snap somebody

(01:13:33):
station than that? You know?Um, So most of the time,
if I'm doing anything, it's tomimic. It's to mimic high outpurts of
work with short rest periods, andand to mimic some kind of wrestling strength,
you know, um, while beingtired. So you know. But
but for the most part, likeI mean the wrestling jumping rope, arm

(01:13:55):
bike um or just you know,cross straining. I do a little bit
of boxing from for my hand,foot and head movement. Um. But
yeah, I don't not a tonof running or listening most of the wrestling.
Chance. What inspired you to starta club? How long have you
been thinking about starting a club?Um? And so I've I've said it

(01:14:17):
since I was younger, Like,uh, I always I started working with
people when I was younger, andI've always had pockets of kids that trained
over the years, but just neversomething that I can call my own.
So you know, it's always somethingI wanted to do. Um. I
feel like the one thing I saidwhen I was when I was younger and
I started working with kids was alwaysthat I feel like I'm a much better

(01:14:39):
coach than I am a wrestler.Um. And on the other side of
it, it helps me with mywrestling. So you know, it's always
been something I wanted to do.Um. You know, it's just a
matter of me doing things right inlife to be able to have the ability
to do it and have people trustingme and trusting me with their kids and
um. You know that that kindof that's important to me. Um.

(01:15:01):
And uh you know so I thinkit was a matter of clearing out all
that records of my life to makesure I had to goility to find me
put it all together. UM.So it's always been something that I wanted
to do. I love, Ilove I like watching kids make jumps.
I like watching you know, thelights come on and in these kids heads.

(01:15:23):
Um, and you know that thatswitched being turned. So yeah,
it's just always been a fashion.How's your club gained so much momentum?
How have you you been able toattract so many high profile wrestlers so soon?
Uh? You know, I thinkthe one thing whether that I Um,
I think kids come to me becausethey see the jumps at the kids

(01:15:45):
I've always had have made um anduh, you know, I've gotten good
kids from other areas, but theyweren't nearly as good as I think they
are now and that that they've beenwith me, Like, um, you
know, there's definitely been great coachesto work with most of these kids because
I didn't have a club earlier on, you know, and but you know,
the jumps, I feel like thesekids make like I don't think they're

(01:16:05):
getting the tactical stuff that I workon or you know, I just I
think that's what people know. Andagain, like I don't when kids from
the club, they know they're they'rethe wrestle, like we don't. We
don't do conditioning in my club.We wrestle to get in shape. I
go was saying earlier, you know, so um m. And I think

(01:16:27):
these people just see how much Ilove again, I love the sport.
I love I love scrabbling with thekids, and I like I love watching
them get better. And I thinkwhen people I think just when people step
in the room and they see that, I think, I think it's contagious.
Um and uh. And you know, word spreads quickly when when something's

(01:16:47):
you know, contagious and um,I think that's that's one of the biggest
things. How have you modeled yourclub? Is there is there another club
or two or three out there orcertain which is that you've You've tried to
hold in this style off a coupleof things. One, I've a lot

(01:17:08):
of self morals and ethics and andyou know in the West start that I'm
trying to live to. That islike the first thing I go off of,
right. The second thing I gooff of is going off of like
I knew the good the circuit whenI was a kid, and it's it's
getting kids to buy into the rightcircuits, like meaning like the light tournament
circuits, the right the right traintraining regiments like so like and you know

(01:17:32):
I was I feel like I wasin those right things when I was a
kid, so kind of going backto those things. And then you know
there's again I take what I can. There's not like what I can from
every everywhere, and you know,trying to implement it. So you know
David, you know, David Taylorhas a great club of them too,
and you know I was able tojump on the scene really fast, and

(01:17:53):
um, you know, so I'lltalk to him about stuff. I have
a really good buddy of mine,just not because you know who runs one
of the best clubs in New York, it's Ridge and you know, I'll
talk to him like and when Italk to these guys, it's more so
like it's never the wrestling stuff.That's you know, in the business end
of it, the logistics. LikeI feel like the one thing I modeled
my club afters is having a personalrelationship with every single one of my wrestlers

(01:18:16):
from top to bottom. I havea you know, if I see one
hundred fifty kids, like, Iwant to make sure every single one of
those kids and parents and now allI care. Now I'm going to create
opportunities and um. So that thatbeing that being said, like that's the
one piece of the element that youknow, I don't think anybody taught me
that. I think that's truly justpassion, um that part. But always

(01:18:39):
just watching logistics, watching how peoplehave done things, watching how clubs have
grown. Like I said, Itry to have my hand in the part
of everything. I try to havemy eyes looking, you know, all
the time, and so so lookingat how these other clubs have been successful
and taking away whatever I can fromit, you know, to implement it,
um end of mind. So Ithink it's just like any you know,

(01:19:01):
running that system is just like anygood wrestler, right, Like,
how do we how do we watchother people unimplemented into what we do well?
How do you balance coaching the elitehigh school wrestlers alongside guys that were
maybe more developmental. So, youknow, I tell them all the time,
is that like you know, ummy, you know the club I
run is like, obviously my goalis to make world champions one day,

(01:19:25):
make kidvince the LA champions, Likethat's the main goal. But I tell
the guys all the time, likekeep coming to this club. That still
is like not necessarily the goal,but that mentality is still the goal,
right, Like we still want tohave a world championship mentality that you know,
maybe we will never have that athleticgifts to be able to win a
world title, but by having that, by having a world championship mentality,

(01:19:50):
you know, it's going to carryover to It's gonna give me my best
results I want to be happy withat the end of the day, I
can live with. It's gonna carryme in having great grades in the classroom.
You know, it's going to carryme through life. It's gonna you
know, maybe maybe I don't.Maybe I don't ever make a world him
or was never even not good ifI'm one of those kids. But maybe

(01:20:12):
one day that all this having thatworld championship mentality, this work ethic,
maybe one day, you know,it makes one of those kids a millionaire,
you know, off off of theirwork ethic, their hustle, their
integrity. Um, you know.So that's and I constantly mind our guys
of that, say, like,our goals to the world champion, and
it's not it's not the world championmentality, right, so um, you

(01:20:32):
know, and I just constantly remindedthem of that, like that. It's
by having that mentality, it's it'sgoing to bring out our best results in
all things of life. If youever had a moment of reflection where you've
thought about what would have happened ifyou would have been a three timer four
timer at Oklahoma State, won aworld title, already just gone through the

(01:20:54):
path the way most elite athletes doversus what you've done now in the impact
you've had now, have you everthought about how that would be different?
You know, I mean I thinkI think you know, uh, reflecting
in that way can be dangerous,Like, um, yeah, I mean
I thought about it, like what, you know, what what would be?

(01:21:14):
But I don't. I don't think. I don't think why. You
know, there's there's there's always prosand cons. If life would have went
that way, you know, maybeI don't have my kids today. If
life would have went that way,maybe I would be coaching college instead of
running my club, which I thinkI have a lot more fun running my
club. Um, you know,if things went that way, like,
you know, maybe I wouldn't havebeen able to identify as a recovering drug

(01:21:35):
I like to help out maybe thousandsof more people. Um that I would
have never been able to help inthe first place, you know, Like
so um, but fucking that wasone thing. But um, being grateful
for you know, of what wehave and where we're at and living in
the present, I think is important. You know. Part of me,
part of me when I was inmy spiraling addiction, was I was constantly

(01:21:57):
living in the past, you know, and it was messing up tomorrow.
I was messing up my future becauseI couldn't live in the president, I
couldn't live in today, I couldn'tlive with who I was. So you
know, being on living to thetoday and now realizing Highsights twenty twenty and
you know putting it, you know, keeping the review mirror and focusing on
what we're doing that's in front ofus and right here. Um, you

(01:22:19):
know, I I think that's uhyeah, I effective in a positive way.
How far of a drive will itbe from your house to where they're
holding Final X in New Jersey.Um, it's an hour and a half,
it's about it's a little less thanlike fifteen minutes from where I train

(01:22:40):
every day. Well, that soundsexciting and know we're excited to see that
match with you and Jordan Burrows.Thanks for coming on the program and sharing
your story. It's a fascinating story. We appreciate your candor, and we
look forward to seeing you in Juneat Final X. Absolutely I can't wait.
Thanks a lot for having sir,Yes, sir, new from cliff

(01:23:02):
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(01:23:50):
That was insightful, that was engaging, and it was entertaining because you just
really got a feel for someone who'shad a unique path in wrestling, so
candid about his story. And Ithink that's the thing I appreciate most whenever
you hear him is that he'll bringit up on his own. You don't

(01:24:11):
need to prod him, you don'tneed to pray him. He'll talk about
his drug addiction virtually in every interview, and you just have to appreciate someone
that's willing to talk about it inthat way. Yeah, that's I mean,
one of the words that you didn'tuse, but I was thinking about
as you were listing off all thosethings that that was was inspiring too.

(01:24:32):
And think the last question there aboutif things had turned out differently, if
he had won two or three NCAAtitles. I was an incredible answer.
Yeah, And you know the messagethere of the impact that he can have
on so many more lives having gonewhat he's gone through. What he's gone
through is it's incredible. And everythingI hear is that he was the dude

(01:24:59):
coming out of high cool. Here'sa dude when he got to high school.
We've we've enjoyed this show for AndyHamilton and Chance Mars Stellar. I
am Kyle Klangman you've been listening toon the mat

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U.S. Open champion Chance Marsteller - OTM661

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}U.S. Open champion Chance Marsteller - OTM661