USA Wrestling Executive Director Rich Bender - OTM662

USA Wrestling Executive Director Rich Bender
USA Wrestling Executive Director Rich Bender is next up On The Mat. Bender will discuss the happenings at USA Wrestling heading into Final X. Bender will also be inducted into the National Wrestling Hall of Fame as a Distinguished Member in early June. Join Kyle Klingman and Andy Hamilton as they talk about the world of wrestling on the flagship podcast of Trackwrestling.com from FloSports.

Show Segments
0:35 - Paddle? Really, Kyle? Maybe it’s an “on deck” reference.
1:00 - Final X Preparation.
3:00 - We’ve gotta draw in the college fan to being a full wrestling fan.
8:25 - Talking about Cael when he came back in 2011.
9:50 - The scoring system at the NCAAs … and what do fans know about it?
19:35 - The Sergeant Duffel from Cliff Keen Athletic
20:24 - Rich Bender Interview
57:25 - Workout Gear from Cliff Keen Athletic
58:00 - Show Recap and some takeaways.

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hi. I'm Jason Bryant from theShort Time Wrestling podcast and founder of the
Matt Talk Podcast Network. Shows onthe network are individually owned and operated,
and those opinions presented and expressed maynot reflect others, the sponsors, patrons,
or the parent network. Find moreshows about the greatest sport in the
world at the Matt Talk Podcast Networkat matt Talk online dot com. Welcome

(00:28):
to on the Mat as always sponsoredby Cliff Keen Athletic. I am Kyle
Klingman, joined by Andy Paddle Hamilton, and we are on the cusp of
Final X just a few weeks away, and it certainly is one of my
favorite events of the year. Differentformat, all in one location. It's

(00:51):
going to be three mats in Newark, New Jersey. If you love wrestling,
you gotta get there. I don'tknow wantus to say other than that,
It's just it's the event, Worldchampionships on the line, and this
is an event that I think isone of those marquis. You circle it
and you got to be there orat least watch. Yeah, I wholeheartedly

(01:12):
agree, Kyle, That's why I'mgonna be there. Well yeah, Well,
I don't know if you remember whenwhen we had a meeting about this
two months ago, it was almostrequired that we be there, all hands
on deck. That that's what theysaid. And Okay, I suppose I'll
go to the best event of theyear and twist my arm to work one

(01:34):
of the great events that we getto be a part of. But it's
one of the great parts of thisjob. You get to be behind the
scenes. You get to see thingshappen, you get to see the interviews,
you get to see the behind thescenes on how things unfold. We
were there for New York. Iwas there for New York exclusively. You
were both at Stillwater and New York. I just think this is going to

(01:56):
be a unique format with having thethree mats side by side by side,
and sounds like this is going tobe a pretty big venue too. Yeah,
I think this is kind of whatI shouldn't say, kind of what
this is what I was hoping theywould get to. So, you know,
I was hoping for like kind ofa two or three day final X

(02:16):
in one location. But see howit goes all in one day. I'm
excited to see it all in onelocation. And you know, the we
had so many steps to it lastyear with the Open and then the Challenge
Tournament and then two locations of FinalX and seemed like what we had last

(02:38):
year, we didn't have any greatevents prior to Final X. Now we
have a great US Open, likethe best that I can remember in a
long, long time. Couple thatwith a World Team Trials Challenge tournament that
we're eagerly awaiting. You know,we're recording this on Friday before the World

(02:59):
Team Trials, so I think we'reboth kind of looking forward to that and
some really good matchups that are goingto come out of that, and then
a couple three weeks here to hypeup Final Acts. And we still have
to draw in that college fan tobecome just the wrestling fan. And we
still have those where once the collegeseason is over, the following of that

(03:21):
team is over, even though youmight have someone that goes on. And
I think we've seen that trend continueand we need to get people into this
thinking about World Championships and maybe it'sa better education that we need to do
about how this process works. BecauseI don't know how many conversations you have
with people, but once the collegeseason, high school season's over, they

(03:44):
kind of check out and just beingable to draw them in a little bit
and get them excited about this WorldTeam Trials process because it is a little
bit funny because you have to reallytell them what this means, and especially
that the new fan getting into thesport, you have to go through the
whole scenario of it's the Olympics ina non Olympic year, and it is

(04:08):
still confusing to try to explain returningmedalist and then if you win the US
Open, but if there's not areturning medalist, there's this World Team Trials
process. It still has that confusionlevel to it, but it is simple
when you say the two best goingat it best of three series, they
make the World Championship team. Whenyou get to that point, it's pretty

(04:30):
simple. Yeah, there's a lotto you you touched upon there, But
I think to your point about gettingmore people checked in this time of year,
it's it amazes me how many peopleI get this all the time,
where April rolls around and people arelike, you know, well, seasons
over, like what do you donow, or or November starts coming around

(04:54):
and they're like a bit you're lookingforward to the season, and for US
like it's fifty two weeks a yearthat we're involved in wrestling, and what
happens in April through the end ofOctober, Like there are tons of events
in there that we get every year. We get excited for the stuff that
is coming up in the spring andsummer months and into the fall, and

(05:15):
there just isn't you know, maybethat widespread check in is there is in
the high school and college season,which is unfortunate because I think some of
the stuff that happens in the springand summer months is everybody as good and
is this is this is prime exampleof that, And I think you continue
to have to be on repeat ofhere's what it means, here's what it

(05:40):
means, because I know for me, it took a while to finally figure
out some things, even on thehigh school front, what it meant.
And I always go back to thetwenty eighteen World Team Trials format in Rochester,
Minnesota when we went is that Ireally didn't understand what was going on
with the Junior World Team Trials processgoing on because I think Gabel Steveson did

(06:03):
both. I think he was goingfrom Matt Matt and he was in both
formats and so I understood the seniorjust fine, but just like, ah,
there's the junior, but I justI wasn't that checked into it.
It just takes getting people year afteryear checked into this and keep educating them
because it has to be on repeat. It's not going to happen with just

(06:25):
saying it once. You have toprobably do it two hundred, two hundred
and fifty times before someone finally getsit. And I think the format we
have now is more understandable for thefans than what it was a year ago.
I think last year with the WorldTeam Trials Challenge tournament, where there
were some weights that they wrestled outto the semis and then there were some
that they went to the finals,I thought that that was kind of confusing.

(06:46):
And so now, like you knowat the Open, if you win
the Open, you're going to FinalX. You know if you win the
World Team Trials Challenge Tournament, you'regoing to Final X. And you have
to win the World Team Trial ChallengeTournament this weekend. There are no second
chances for that group. So we'rein a higher stakes environment now and it's

(07:09):
easier to follow for the people thatare following along for the people that are
in venue and those watching at home, and if you're watching Christian Piles stand
up videos that he does where hetakes a topic and breaks things down.
He did one on Kale Sanderson andone of the things he did talk about

(07:29):
in that that was intriguing to mewas he talked about Kal Sanderson's comeback for
the twenty eleven World Championships, whichhe made and eventually placed fifth. But
he had a good perspective that evenin that era you didn't have the access
to footage like you do now,is that it wasn't the If Kale would

(07:49):
have come back in this era,it would be explosion, there would be
hype videos and we would be ableto do so much more. But it
was kind of underground and hidden,And now that I think about it,
I don't know how you would evengo about watching it. I don't know
that there was an outlet for it. I don't think flow was covering it

(08:13):
at that time. It's just hardto believe that that was twenty eleven,
eleven years ago, and how farwe've come in those eleven twelve years since
that come back from Kale Sanderson's What'swild is Kale? He was younger then
than what Day and Taylor are now. Is that right? He was younger?

(08:33):
Okay, so was he thirty?He was thirty one. He's thirty
one at that time, okay,and made that comeback. But again it's
just it's the power he'd been he'dbeen retired for what seven years? Yeah,
seven years four. Yeah, it'sincredible. So I don't think we
ever saw how good Kale could havebeen internationally. He had that Olympic gold

(08:56):
run in two thousand and four andthen got into coaching. But that point
really hit me when Christian brought thatup and that in that commentary about cal
Sanderson's comeback, that it really wasn'twidely publicized at that point. We'll think
about we talked about this before,I think on the show. I know

(09:16):
I've talked about it somewhere. Likein twenty eleven when Jordan Burrows won his
first world title. The only wayyou can watch that match, to my
knowledge, is the footage of GaryAbbott film from a handicam up in the
stands. Yeah, it just makesme laugh every time I bring that up,
that that was Burrows's first world titleand we just didn't have the access.

(09:37):
So be thankful for what we have, with the footage we have,
with the coverage we have. We'regonna have Rich Bender, executive director of
USA Wrestling, on the show.Before we get to that, I just
want to cover a topic with theNCAA Wrestling Championships and that I think we
look at things through the lens ofhow someone places or how they get on

(10:00):
the podium. I don't think mostfans truly understand the scoring system that is
in place at the NCAA Championships andwhat the ramifications are of that scoring system.
So this popped in my head asI'm doing these early season lineup looks
for various teams in the top twenty. And when you start breaking things down

(10:24):
and you look at the previous year'sresults and you see what an individual's done
and on track wrestling, you canlook at the number of team points you
get. So reaching the quarterfinals isa pretty big deal. You got to
win two matches and the toughest tournamentof the year, see this a lot.
You win by decision decision, andthen you lose lose, So you

(10:46):
get to the quarterfinals. You scoretwo points for your team. Two points
for your team on the backside.Let's say you lose in the first round,
you got to go through a gauntlet, and you win three matches in
a row. You score one anda half points for your team. Three
matches, one and a half points. However, you go back to the
two thousand and seven Missouri team,they had three placers. They placed third

(11:11):
that year. They had a first, a third, and the sixth and
they placed third at the NSA Championships. You say, how it was bonus
points, and so if you getone pin on the front side, you've
scored three points, which is worthmore than a guy that wins two decisions
and gets to the quarterfinals. Andjust a basic math thing. I don't

(11:33):
think people look at this too.You place eighth, you get on the
podium, score five and a halfpoints. If you win decision decision,
lose in the quarters, win yournext match. You're in that one year
round to twelve and then you getthe eighth place points. You get five
and a half points for your team. If if you get sent to the
backside and you win three matches howeveryou want, and you win all by

(11:58):
fall and then you get knocked out, you've scored seven and a half points.
For your team, so more thansomeone who places eight. So I
think we get enamored by the whereyou fit on the podium. It really
is bonus points, and you couldbe in one of these weird matches where
you're behind and you get a fallthat win on the front side. If
you can get the one point advancementand that two point fall three points for

(12:22):
your team, that is huge,and I think the more we can kind
of get that out there, Idon't think we have a great system for
tournament scoring. I've always said that. I've always thought that. I just
think it's odd that you would cutthe advancement points in half on the backside,
which is essentially a decision, andthen keep the bonus point number the

(12:43):
same instead of cutting it in half. And then on the back side you
just have more opportunities and I don'twant to say against an inferior opponent,
but someone who's lost. It's tougherto win matches on the front side,
and so once you get to thebackside. That's why you see these Gorrian
Award winners. They're typically guys thatgot sent to the backside and then then
they can get falls. So Ithink a hard look at that. I

(13:05):
don't think a lot of people understandscoring. I think a lot of the
D one coaches don't understand the scoringsystem necessarily, so placing isn't the biggest
deal. I think getting those bonuspoints and scoring those, especially on the
backside, it's huge. I don'tthink people understand that. Well. Yeah,
I mean, you laid it outthere with five and a half points.

(13:26):
You could finish eighth, eighth placefive and a half points. You
could have ten All Americans who finishedeighth with five and a half points,
and theoretically you could get outscored bya team that only takes two wrestlers who
wind up scoring a bunch of bonuspoints and winning titles. Yeah, exactly,
But that shows you how important itis to get guys deep into the

(13:46):
tournament and high up on that podiumscoring bonus points. It is, and
I just I don't know how wekind of make people more aware of that
that you can win the baseline ofwinning an NCAA title is twenty points.
If you win by all decisions,you get twenty. If you get pin

(14:07):
your way through the nca Championships,the most you can score is thirty points.
Under that scenario, if you losein the first round and pin your
way back and get third place,you can score twenty seven points. So
potentially you can lose in the firstround and score more points than the third
place finisher or the first place finisherwho just scored twenty So it is funny.

(14:28):
I get the idea that you wantto dominate and you want to get
those but we've seen those situations wherea third place finisher scores more than the
second place and a lot of scenariosbecause second place is only going to win
four matches. Third place always winsfive matches, so you're going to have
two more opportunities on the backside towin matches. If you get second,
all you can do is losing thefinals and you're not going to have more

(14:52):
chances to potentially get those bonus points. So it's not a great system.
I don't know what the fix isother than two cut bonus points in half
on the backside. That's the onlything I get. It's more confusing though,
too, right, Like it's anotherlayer of you know, you're adding
to the calculus here, but youknow why at Henderson scored more points in

(15:15):
finishing third. He scored more pointsthan two NCAA Champs this year. There
you go, Yeah, So Idon't know. I think probably the biggest
thing with team scoring that that Isee as the problem is what you sort
of touched upon there is like thereare people who have spent a lifetime in
this sport that still don't understand it. You know, now I understand it,

(15:39):
but it's been a big part ofmy job is to learn it and
to understand it memorize it. ButI don't think it's the best for bringing
new people into the sport. Sayingall right, here's the formula sixteen twelve,
ten, nine, seven, sixfour three for place winners, and
you get a one point for advancementon the front, and you get half

(16:03):
on the back, and here's whatyour bonus points are worth. And you
know the other part to you're youknow, did you mentioned there a win
by medical forefeit on the back?How much more prevalent those are? Not?
I don't sense that there were aton of them this year in comparison
to previous years, but those canshake up the team team races quite a

(16:25):
bit too, Like who's fortunate enoughto catch somebody in the you know,
on the backside and be able toto pick up like you know, that's
consolation semi final on Saturday morning atthe national tournament. That's five and a
half point win. That's a big, big, big, big deal.
And especially you start looking down theline at some of these team scores this
year and how jammed up things werefrom like you know, Michigan in sixth

(16:51):
at fifty eight and a half andArizona State at fifty five, Nebraska fifty
four, and then even down tonot like just trying to get into the
the top ten, nine, ten, eleven, Virginia Tech, North Carolina
State. I was stay forty ninetyeight, forty seven. So yeah,
a big deal. But even whatyou said there again light bulb moment where

(17:11):
you get three points for eighth placepoints if you get a medical forfeit on
the backside, you just got twoand a half points, So you're essentially
getting eighth place points for someone justnot showing up. Yeah, and I
think, if anything, we needto look at bumping up how how many
points in all American scores because Isaid, it's it's hard to finish on

(17:32):
that podium. You're finishing, youknow, eighth out out of thirty three.
You know you're in the you're inthe top you know, top twenty
five percent of of your weight class, like of that tournament. Yeah,
that more that didn't qualify, right, So so like you're in the top
ten percent nationally of all the schools. So I think, especially looking at

(17:55):
at some of the caliber of wrestlers, it's taken to get on the podium,
finish six, seventh, eighth,that's hard. I would like to
see those those values bumped up alittle bit more. Yeah, And in
my head, as you think ofplacing too, I always think that there's
a badge of honor with reaching theround to twelve, which it is a
badge of honor. But again,you win decision decision, losing the quarters,

(18:19):
losing the concis, you reach roundto twelve, but you've only scored
two team points. And again,if you go back and you lose in
the first round, win by fall, win by fall, and then you
lose, you're not in the roundto twelve, but you scored five team
points. So it really does showyou the value of scoring those bonus points.

(18:41):
And it's but it's tougher to winon the front side. It's just
because you're presumably going and gets atougher opponent to that point, I guess
you could have an upset. Butyou get on the backside, it's it's
going to be a little bit easierto pick up bonus points there, the
mentalities down a little bit, You'reable to catch some openings and you see
those opportunities more on the backside.So I'd love to see some tweaks on

(19:04):
that anything else before we get toRich Bender and talk to him about the
future of wrestling in this country.Well, bonus points will be more prevalent
next year, probably, I hope. So assuming that, assuming that the
three point takedown goes through, yeah, you know, so that more majors
in tact. Yeah, I hopeto get to that point. Cliff Keen

(19:27):
Athletic is our sponsor. Let's hearfrom them, and then we'll be back
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(20:08):
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dot Cliff Keene dot com and clickAccessories under the shop Wrestling tab. Our
guest is USA Wrestling Executive Director RichBender. He is going into the National

(20:30):
Wrestling Hall of Fame as a DistinguishedMember soon. Rich. How are you.
I'm doing great? Great? Howabout you? Guys? Well,
we're doing good, and you haveto be doing good. You're going in,
You're going to be a Hall ofFamer. How does that feel?
Yeah, it doesn't feel real.Um, certainly, you know. I
think I've convinced myself that, youknow, I can accept it with the

(20:51):
honor of being the least deserving memberof anyone ever inducted in any Hall of
Fame ever anywhere. So with that, I can I can probably hold my
head high and move on. Butcertainly, you know, it's it's unreal
obviously, um, you know,never in my wildest dreams what I think
something like this was possible, butobviously incredibly grateful when you get a call

(21:11):
like that, How does it feel? Well? So I was I was
in uh actually Pontadra, Spain atthe at the UW or the WU twenty
three World Championships this last summer whenLeRoi called me and called me and said,
hey, congratulations, you're going tobe a distinguished member. And I
paused, and I was just kindof waiting for you know, John Smith

(21:33):
to kind of pipe in and sayyeah, right that they were just kind
of maybe bored and had were killingsome time and wanted to have some fun
at my expense, and and thatdidn't happen. I thought, well,
there's got to be some mistake.And I said, Lera, I can't
I can't accept I just I can'tdo I'm not deserving and it's you know,
I just can't accept it. Andhe paused for a second, said,

(21:55):
rich, let me give you someadvice when you're when you're when you're
offered to be inducted into the NationalWrestling Hall of Fame. You accept,
And to that I said, well, maybe I guess I will, and
realize obviously in seriousness at that pointthat you know, it wasn't my honor,
it's it's it's a USA Wrestling honor. It's the literally thousands of volunteers

(22:19):
that poured their life into the sport. And uh, I've just been blessed
and with the opportunity to lead inorganizations. And it's backbone is the you
know, the volunteers and the reallythe straw that stirs the drink for wrestling
in America. Let's reflect. Let'sgo back ten years to twenty thirteen when
wrestling was supposed to be dropped fromthe Olympics, or it was suggested.

(22:44):
Take us through what you remember aboutthat moment, in the moment when you
got the call that that it mightbe dropped, well, I mean was
aware that there was a vote comingup by the Executive Board. And again
I kind of go back to kindof set the stage. How wrestling got
into that into that position is thatthe then president of the International Olympic Committee

(23:06):
is a gentleman named Jacques Rogue.And Jack Rogue had had a goal as
president of the International Olympic Committee wasto modernize the movement, and there was
a you know, he was gettinga lot of feedback from from folks that
the games were, you know,kind of archaic, they weren't they weren't

(23:26):
modernizing themselves, or they weren't stayingup with the times, and their relevancy
was was was maybe not going onthe right trajectory, and so he made
a decision that he was going tomodernize the games. And his strategy around
modernizing the games was that the time, there were twenty six sports on the
Summer Olympic program, and his strategywas to add two new sports to give

(23:51):
the games a kind of a refresh. And then the final part of that
refresh was to look at the twentyeight sports and then take one of the
sports off and put another new sporton, meaning that they would really take
a program of twenty six Foundation Olympicsports, make it twenty eight and really
add three new by taking one ofthe you know, in theory, the

(24:15):
existing twenty six off. So thatwas the process by which wrestling um was
was in and we had an internationalfederation that that wasn't very interested in in
in talking to the International Olympic Committeeabout this, this data and this or
the data and the research that theywere seeking to figure out how they could

(24:36):
decide which one of these sports weregoing to come off. And uh,
you know, I think ultimately thatwas that was the foundation by which wrestling
started to be considered. It wasan international federation that was really unwilling to
cooperate with any kind of data seekingprocess to figure out what was what sports

(24:56):
should be in or out. Andyou know, I think going and so
I was aware that February thirteenth,I think was the day of the vote,
but I was aware that that votewas going to be taken by the
by the executive board of the InternationalOlympic Committee, and the executive board of
the International CAMPIG was fourteen members,so literally it came down to, you

(25:17):
know, seven people putting wrestling ona on a ballot, and that's you
know, how we got into thatposition. And most people going in and
talk to the internet or to ourNational Olympic Committee the night before the vote
and was told that wrestling has doneyou know, you you you're not one
of the sports being considered that likelyit'll be modern pentathlon or you know,

(25:37):
maybe taekwondo, but wrestling's not reallyin the conversation. Well, uh,
that's not what happened, and inthe in the room that day and loses
on for you know, through acouple of ballots and votes. Ultimately seven
people wrote wrestling down on this onthis uh, on this ballot, and

(25:57):
you know, thus wrestling was throwninto the spotlight and you know, kind
of pegg to be the sport thatwas going to be removed from the program.
And what, luckily for wrestling isa really smart lawyer with Phila at
the time it was called Phila nowuww that said, Look, the Olympic
Charter clearly says that only the Sessionmeaning all the ILEC members, can make

(26:22):
the final decision on the program,meaning what sports are contested. And if
you take wrestling off the program bya vote of seven people on the executive
board, in a sense, theSessions not has hasn't voted on the program.
So we were able to convince theInternational Olympic Committee that wrestling should at

(26:47):
the very minimum be allowed to participateto compete with the other I think at
the time there were nine sports thatwe would be added back on the Olympic
program. And Kyle, I don'tthink you were thinking the answer is gonna
be this long. But anyway,uh so, uh we uh we were
able to compete with the other sportsto get on the program and ultimately that's

(27:11):
that was the process that we followedit to get down the program. But
that day and February, I didn'tthink that we were being considered. I
mean, it was all the informationthat we had. We knew there was
a vote that wrestling wasn't going tobe on. But uh, I was
remember the day pretty well. Iwas in the shower early in the morning.
I get up early in the morningand my wife got to bed and

(27:32):
said, he need to answer yourphone. It's blowing up. And I
picked up my phone. I lookeddown on my phone and it was a
text message from Dan Gable that saidworst news ever in my heart sunk.
I knew exactly what he meant andand so you know, that's started the
wheels in motion if you will toyou know, figure out what you know,

(27:52):
what what we needed to do andhow we needed to um secure wrestling
spot on the program. Moving forward, Rich, where are we as a
sport ten years later, if ifwrestling hadn't gotten back on the Olympic program,
Oh man, I don't I don'twant to think about it. And
I think, you know, oneof the one of the realities of of

(28:12):
I mean, wrestling is a foundationalsport in our country, right, I
mean, we we're ingrained into thefabric of youth sports in America. Ten
thousand high schools wrestle and uh,you know, it's a it's a it's
just a really foundational activity for youthin America. And to say that,
oh, just being an Olympic programthat would end certainly, I mean,

(28:34):
I think would probably be a stretch. I think, you know, historically,
you know, wrestling, um couldyou know, could survive without the
Olympic designation. But I think itsure sure would have hurt us and sure
would have hurt um, you know, our ability to to to shove the
sport forward from a relevancy legitimacy standpoint. I think it certainly ultimately has had

(29:00):
a you know, would have avery very very detrimental impact on the growth
of women's wrestling for sure. Februarythirteenth, twenty was that thirteenth or eleventh
of twenty thirteen. Let's just takeFebruary one. At that point, you
didn't know it was going to come, But was there a part of you
that thought we aren't really where weneed to be as a sport internationally?

(29:25):
Oh for sure. And you guysare both around at the time, and
it's I mean, at the endof the day, our our I mean,
our sport needed some work, right, I mean there was you know,
pretty I think widespread corruption. Maybethat's a pretty strong word, but
you know, I think you know, you know, the refereeing wasn't always
uh, you know, as astransparent as I think we had we would,

(29:48):
we had hoped, or think thought. And the rules were bad,
I mean reaching a bag and graba ball and determine really who's going to
win a match? I mean that'snot wrestling. And you know, I
think the governance of the sport atthe international level had a long ways to
go, and it comes to youknow, professionalism, etc. And Yeah,

(30:10):
there's no doubt, no doubt thatthere was uh, you know,
anybody that was around the sport knewthat there was certainly some opportunities for the
sport to get better. Why didwe get to the ball draw era.
Well, I think it's I mean, my philosophy is, at the time,
we had a president of the InternationalFederation, guy named Raffe Martinetti,

(30:30):
who was a long time referee withwithin refe, a good referee, and
he, I mean had this philosophythat you know, to to to make
the sport more interesting and better thatyou just I mean he was searching for
a rule change that would that woulddo that. I don't know if you
how closely you followed it back inthe you know, ten years before the

(30:55):
twenty thirteen, you know, theearly two thousands. I mean, we
were changing rules and literally every yearand sometimes multiple times in a year.
There's times where we go to theWorld Championships and there'd be rule changes that
we'd find out about at the WorldChampionships. And because Rathew was a referee,
I think he felt confident in,you know, understanding the sport and

(31:17):
you know, had a system inplace where, you know, it's pretty
efficient way for him to if hehad an idea to change a rule,
he could there was a system inplace that could get that actually done.
Those rules change, those rules change, rule changes made, and I don't
think you know, I've never neverthought this that you know, any of
those rule changes were done with intentto make the sport worse. I think

(31:41):
they all actually the changes were madein his mind to improve the sport.
Just unfortunately, you know, therewasn't a lot of democracy or input included
into those decisions. And you know, ultimately, you know, I think,
uh, looking, you know,many times we'd look at each other
after a World Championships or Olympic Gamesand stays, we just really determined the

(32:05):
best wrestling in the world by whopulled out the right color ball out of
a bag and you know, inthe sinse, that's what we were doing
at the time. Since that point, we have gotten to the point where
we are in the best era forthe United States in wrestling. Why and
how did we get to that point? Well, I think in and I

(32:28):
think, um, first of all, I want to kind of go back
to the to that process in twentythirteen to stay on the Olympic program.
I think that you know, themost critical decision that was made and that
whole process was you know, wedidn't we didn't turn into wrestlers from the
perspective of wanting to fight right.We could have taken the approach that you

(32:50):
know, we're gonna sue the IOC. We're gonna, we're gonna, we're
gonna, you know, hold somebodythese people accountable for making this stupid decision.
It was a stupid decision, right, I mean, wrestling book needed
needs to be on the Olympic program. And instead of taking that approach of
you know, wanting to punch backor fight, we we took a breath
and decided that, look, hey, this might be an opportunity for us

(33:13):
to do the things that we weren'table to do in the existing environment,
meaning make rule changes, make uh, you know, governance, leadership changes,
and ultimately improve the sport. AndI think that, um, you
know, is foundational to to wherewe are today as a sport. And

(33:35):
certainly the success that we enjoy inAmerica is as a result of the sport
being really good. Right, therules are good, the governance is good.
I think athletes enter our sport witha high level of confidence that if
indeed they are the best wrestler,they're going to win and not have all
these external factors impact whether they canachieve their their dream and their goal or

(34:00):
not. And I think, youknow, we've been fortunate as a country
to inspire um many to get involvedand support the program. I think,
you know, the fact that youknow, our our school, college community
and the infrastructure that exists for wrestlingis the envy of the world. We
have the best and when we havea sport that that you know, has

(34:23):
kind of figured itself out from ayou know, from a governance perspective and
a rules perspective and an accountability perspective. If you have a good infrastructure,
you know, you're you're bound tobe successful. And we're we're really fortunate.
And that's that's not because a richBender or USA Wrestling. It's because
of the history and the passion thatso many people have that are involved in

(34:45):
our sport. And I said,you know, I said this to both
you guys before, right, ifyou've been involved in wrestling, you're better
for a period. There's no exception, never been in an exception for somebody
that's got involved in wrestling and notimprove themselves. And I think it's you
know, it's it's been kind ofat the foundation of our success is being
able to rally people around that realityof you know, what the sport can

(35:08):
do for you. We have aninfrastructure that, like I said, is
really efficient and powerful. And youknow, kids have a have an opportunity
to step on the mat from youknow, their very first experience in the
sport in a really clear pipeline andpathway for them to achieve at the very

(35:29):
highest level. There's not a bigdisjointed process in our sport, right You
step on the mat in a gymand and Eastern Iowa and there's a there's
a clear pathway for you to takethe sport to to whatever level you want.
And and for us, fortunately alot of a lot of guys and

(35:49):
girls in our country have have hadthat dream and been able to follow that
path and ultimately have success. Thatis really really cool. From that moment
in February of twenty thirteen until wrestlinggot back into the Olympic Games officially,
it felt like there's a real unitybehind the sport and in the world.
How do we maintain that unity tomake sure we never forget that moment and

(36:14):
use that moment and every subsequent yeargoing forward. Well, I think,
I mean it's accountability, Kyle,It's I mean, at the end of
the day, we got to Imean, the leaders have to be held
accountable for making decisions that that thatare in the best interests of the sport
always and it's I mean that's notalways easy. I mean because you know,

(36:34):
there's there's a lot of different viewpointson not just wrestling things, but
just you know, matters around theworld. I mean, the Russians don't
see the see things the same waywe do. And you know, I
think it's it's really important for usto be committed to a level of transparency
and accountability to those that are inleadership positions and making decisions, hopefully for

(37:00):
the best interests of the sport.When we think about those critical moments.
Last year was one Russia was notat the World Championships. Where does that
stand going forward? Will Russia bein well, Ukraine be out? What
kind of conversations do you have aboutthat topic, Well, a lot of
them. And actually I'm blessed tohave the opportunity to serve on the Board

(37:22):
of Directors of the US Olympic andParalympic Committee, and that's a very very
big topic of discussion within the youknow, the broader not just the wrestling
community, but the entire Olympic communityand within wrestling and so how the structure
works is you know, the realdecision makers on who, you know,

(37:44):
what countries participate in, what thewhat the rules of engagement are in terms
of their participation, is the InternationalSport Federation. So you have the International
Olympic Community that's the overarching authority overOlympic sport around the world. And then
you have International sport Federations UWW isour International Sports Federation United World Wrestling.

(38:06):
You have national Olympic committees that ultimatelydon't have the same authority as the international
sport federations, but the international sportfederations make the rules for their sport,
rules for participation in the Olympics,rules for you qualification, rules for eligibility,
etc. And our International Federation UWWtends to be you know, I

(38:29):
think probably more I guess, Idon't know what word I want to want
to use, but more willing toto look for ways to provide broader participation
for everybody, meaning you know,probably I think it's safe to say that
they are looking for ways to figureout how everybody can participate in the sport

(38:52):
regardless of what their passport says.And our International Federation has made the decision
already that from U seventeen and below. There's no no ban on Russian and
Belarussian participation other than it's my understandingthey they have to compete as UM independence

(39:15):
or non Russian you know, connectedteam. I don't if that even makes
sense what I said, but UMas independent. So you know, we
expect to see a Russian team anda bel Russian team even though they won't
probably be wearing um, you know, Russian warmups or see the Russian flag
or the bell Russian flag or warmups, that they will still be in the

(39:38):
World Championship. And that's that's adecision that they've made as far as the
Olympic participation, as we all knowor not everybody knows, but you know,
the first and only requirement for participationin the World Championships is participation in
the Continental Championships, meaning you canand not wrestle at the World Championship with

(40:02):
a team bigger than the team thatyou participate in with at the Continental Championships.
Meaning if you you instead of youweigh in thirty athletes and compete in
your continental championships, you can enterthirty athletes, you know, one per
weight class and the prodestment at theWorld Championships. If you enter ten athletes
in the in the Continental Championships.You can only enter ten athletes in the

(40:25):
in the World Championships, and theAsia and the Russians and the Battle Russians
are required to participate in the EuropeanChampionships. That's their continental championships and that's
over. So unless the international federationswere to make some radical change to their
rules, they're out for the WorldChampionships this year. And I mean,

(40:46):
I nothing really surprises me, butI would say that that's it's doubtful that
we'll see the Russians in and theBattle Russians in Serbia, although we're preparing
as if they're going to be there. I assure you our coaches are well
aware of, you know, whatcompetitors are are wrestling in Russia and in

(41:08):
Belarussia, and certainly we won't besurprised if they show up at the World
Championship, but as of right now, it's not likely they will participate.
The president of the US Olympic andParalympic Committee said in a meeting this week
that when it comes to Russian participationin the Olympics, that it was doubtful

(41:30):
that was his words. Doubtful andit's already been decided by the International Olympic
Committee, and I said that theInternational Olympic Committee doesn't ultimately make the decision,
but they've they've recommended to the InternationalFederation that no Russian team would be
allowed to participate in Paris and teammeeting, team sports. Certainly. They

(41:52):
also said that if the Russians,any Russian athletes are allowed to participate,
it won't be under the Russian flag, same for for Belarus. But Um,
the president of the International or ofthe US Olympic Compariament Committee, said
that you know, if there wereany Russians allowed to participate, and I

(42:12):
say keep saying Russians on I meanBelar, Russians and Russians. But Um
and Uh that it would there thatif he would be shocked if if there
were any more than just a fewthat would meet the eligibility requirements, meaning
they cannot and the eligibility requirements thatthe International Olympic Committee has suggested to the

(42:34):
international federations is that joe athlete withthe connection to the military, which eliminates
a big segment of the of theRussian athletic teams. Because many of them
are you know, either in militaryclubs or work for or in you know,
UM enlisted in the in the military. The other condition is that they

(42:58):
could not have shown any public supportfor the war. And you know,
I think that's kind of a nebulousthing. I don't know what that means
exactly. And you know, myinput and suggestion to the to our Olympic
committee is that look, I mean, it's it's I don't know how you

(43:22):
you know, what do you do? Go through Sadilli's Facebook account, make
sure he hasn't said anything about thewar, or what's that look like?
And you know, bigger concern thatI have personally is what's going on with
doping control in that country? Andyou know, it's safe to suspect that
the Russian Ana Dopen Agency isn't inMahatskala doing unannounced drug testing on the wrestlers.

(43:46):
And what does that reentry look likeIf an American wrestler retires and comes
out of the testing pool for USADAel he or he is ineligible to participate
for six months after they decide they'regoing to come back to the sport,
so that there's an opportunity for UMor any dopey ages to feel like they've

(44:09):
maintained a level playing field for allthe wrestlers that you know, someone doesn't
just retire and then you know,come back of the sport after being on
the gas for a while. Soum, that's that's I mean. I
I'm doubtful that we'll see him atthe senior level at the World Championships this
year. I'm not as doubtful thatwe'll see him, uh at the at

(44:31):
the Olympics and in uh in Paris. I mean certainly, um, you
know, not by any stretch ofa fan of the war and want that
war to end, and uh,you know, certainly, Um, you
know, I think people are allover the place in terms of you know,
their belief and what involvement if any, you know, Russian wrestlers have

(44:54):
had in the in this war.But you can't ignore, you know,
the impact it's had on the Ukrainianwrestlers for sure. Let's look back to
the US Open. What great energythere was there, What a great tournament
that was when you were watching fromyour seat. What did you think about
the US Open this year? Well, it was it was a bit of

(45:15):
a relief, actually, Kyle Imean, it's just uh, I mean,
at the end of the day,Um, you know, our US
Open, because of our selection procedureshave have you know, their relevancy of
the US Open hasn't been there.And it was just great to see the
energy and in the in the depthand the level at which you know,

(45:37):
our sport is being contested at thevery highest level in America. And you
know, I'm a fan of Vegasand you know, it's a destination.
I think it's a it's a placewhere you know, athletes enjoy um,
you know, coming to and tosee that many high level wrestlers wrestling in
a meaningful event was was really itwas a relief but all so obviously it

(46:00):
was it was really cool to see. Let's look at the Final X product
coming up, there's going to beone venue, one location, three mats.
What went into the decision to justgo to one location this year?
Well, actually, um, Kyle, that was the I mean, that
was originally the thought when this wasdreamed up of what Final X would be.

(46:23):
And you know, just as weyou know, kind of evolved through
it, it just you know,this is the first time we've been able
to actually put that together all inone location, you know, coming down
to you know, maybe the mostimportant night in wrestling, certainly domestically,
where you know, the eyes ofthe entire wrestling community can be focused on

(46:45):
one location and uh, you know, hopefully we'll do a good job of
setting up the matchups and creating abig buzz and interests and uh, you
know, it'll be a hot ticketin at the Credential Center. Now that
the Devils are out of the playas that, ye have another level of
relief. But um, it's it'show we got there. It's you know,

(47:07):
been a lot of hard work andin you know, trying things and
you know, listening to people andclubs and athletes, and you know,
ultimately we think we've we've we've we'vefigured it out and hopeful that it's going
to be uh uh you know,a crown jewel within our sport and uh,
you know a day that you know, the entire wrestling community really focus

(47:29):
in on Team USA. Do youthink it'll stand that format for the foreseeable
future? Because in twenty seventeen,probably the best wrestling event I've been to.
I know Andy will always say thetwenty seventeen Worlds in Paris I wasn't
there, but live event twenty seventeenWorld Team Trials was the best I've been
to. Any chance we go backto that format where it's all in one
day, well I don't. Idon't know. That's that's that's a good

(47:53):
We won't have the same the sameformat next year, for sure, we'll
go back to multiple day format withwith the Olympic Trials. It won't be
a final x um um system soto speak. So um, I mean,
well, we'll see. I mean, I think one of the things
that's pretty cool about the organization inthe sport is that, you know,

(48:16):
we take input from a lot ofdifferent folks and you know, changing isn't
something that that we're totally against.Uh. Improving is something that we strive
for. And if you know,this event proves to be wickedly successful,
we'll stay with it. If there'sadjustments that need to be made, will
make them. But next year theOlympic Trials will be more of the traditional

(48:38):
format that that you're used to thatyou saw and in UH in Texas our
last trials and then the two beforethat, and I will the Olympic Trials
is going to be in State Collegebefore that the US Nationals will be somewhere
in December. Any word, Iwant a locational be for that event in

(49:00):
December. And of course I thinkwe know why State College. But how
long did it take to finally cometo the determination to be in State College
for the Olympic Trials? Well,and as you know, we went through
a bid process prior to the twentytwenty or twenty twenty one, if you
will, Tokyo Games in selected StateCollege as as the host and COVID hit

(49:23):
and obviously some challenges in State Collegethat we just couldn't overcome from a COVID
perspective, and agreed to allow themto keep the bid for the next the
next trial, So there wasn't muchof it we had. We didn't we
didn't go through another process to determineif that was the spot. We'd already

(49:46):
done that and honored our commitment tothem from twenty twenty. As far as
where the the nationals will be inDecember, I think it looks like it'll
be down in Texas again and Ibelieve it will be in for Worth.
What's your take on Nil? Iknow you're not on the college scene,
but do you have any thoughts onwhere we're going with college sports and NIL,

(50:09):
Well, there's a couple. Imean that's a pretty broad question.
I mean I think you know,most people would look at NIL at its
you know, kind of foundation,and say, you know, doesn't make
sense for you know, wrestler likeKyle Klingman is you know, wrestling in
his university to have a deal witha local tire shop that's going to pay

(50:29):
him some money to come over ona Saturday and sign some autographs and help
him uh selve some tires and earna little money. I think most people
looked at that and thought, yeah, that makes sense. I think that's
that's that's probably makes sense. Ithink there was some kind of myth gauging,
if you will, the transfer ofinterest from traditional sponsors to individual athletes,

(50:53):
i e. A state farm youknow, has doesn't have an interest
in sponsoring individual athletes in a sponsorwith the universe University of Illinois and the
institution that it is and what itstands for and the totality of the of
their UM sports programs where and Ithink that when that legislation first path there

(51:15):
was some that thought that there wouldbe a redistribution or really the donors and
the sponsors were interested in individual athletesand that they're just being exploited and that
money will just transfer over. Well, we found that that's not the case.
Right. There's some some some commercialproperties that have decided to invest specifically

(51:36):
individual athletes, but it's not Imean, I think statistics will say you
not that hasn't been a host cellchange. Um. What What's what's really
interesting, in some ways really scaryis the legislation that's being proposed in California
that will now redistribute television rights tospecifically football and basketball players and what impact

(51:59):
that could have on sports programs inAmerica. I mean, we haven't seen
a big distribution of resources from corporateAmerica to individual athletes. And there's some,
for sure, there's some, butfor the most part, I think
the universities and athletic departments have beenable to maintain that. Uh. Television

(52:21):
rights are another thing. If theyif they lose half of that, I
think it has a drastic impact onOlympic sports and sports that maybe aren't you
know, generating the same um commercialrevenue on their own. But um,
in terms of what I think thefuture is my personal opinion is that that

(52:44):
it will eventually. I mean,the market will will determine what, you
know, what is the value?And you know, right now, I
think the thing that's that's we've seenis instead of athletes being able to earn
revenue or earn dollars around their name, image and likeness in our sport,

(53:05):
I think it's boiled down to whatathletes are being paid to score team points
at the NCAA Championships. And Idon't think that's what what I was intended
for. But um, you know, there are these collective collectives that are
being put together and that's indeed what'shappening. And uh, I'm not a
fan of it. I mean,certainly a huge proponent of of um making

(53:28):
sure that people you know, canafford to wrestle and be a part of
the sport. But um, youknow that's I don't know that that's a
sustainable model, but I think it. I think the market will come back,
and you know, well, itwill be determined what what is the
value and values will match up withwith name, image and likeness, and
hopefully we'll we'll get the wind thatare back. But right now, I

(53:52):
think it's all over the place,and I think there's a lot of misinformation
in the market, if you will, about you know what, you know,
what is being paid, who's payingwhat, and you know, I
think it's also concerning the transfer portalin terms of what impact that's had on
you know, that coach's abilities toput teams together and you know, really

(54:12):
invest and develop athletes and uh,you know, hopefully that's something that will
be addressed in the in the nearfuture. How many days a year are
you on the road? Rich?I think I looked at it. Last
year I was on the road.I think one hundred and thirty seven days.
Rich Fargo schedule looks quite a bitdifferent this year. The girls are

(54:36):
going to kick things off. There'sa break between the guy's freestyle and Greco
Roman uh, with some beach wrestlingemphasis in there. Can can you explain
the thought process behind the schedule andand the why it got drawn up the
way it did this year? Well, thanks for the question, Annie,
and I just did one hundred percenttransparency. I can't, okay, and

(54:58):
I and I and I and I'dsay that respectfully and I and I'm and
and and sincerely, I mean,at the end of the day, Um,
I mean, it's it's it's agreat spectacle. I mean right,
it's been a it's been a foundationof USA Wrestling as long as I've been
here, and a great spectacle forour sport. But it's managed by by
our staff certainly, but mostly thevolunteers and our state leaders and those that

(55:22):
put these teams together and figure outwhat's the best format and structure for for
the teams and the athletes and manthere there. There are a lot of
changes made this year, hopefully allfor the better. But you know,
I think part of it is todo with the development of women's wrestling,
and you know, the the realitythat that sport is matured and developed to

(55:45):
a point to where you know,we're qualifying now athletes for for that event
as opposed to being an open tournament. And you know, certainly there's a
it's a it's still a grind andI mean what we had almost six and
entries totally in that event last year, and you know, it takes tweaking
every year. But hopefully the changesthat are being made this year are for

(56:07):
the better. And as I saidearlier, if if not, we'll we'll
take a look and look for waysto make it better in the future.
Rich, before we let you go, have you watched all of the Yellowstone
episodes and all of the spin offsyet I have, and I'm a little
upset that that there's you know,not a lot of word on what's going

(56:28):
on with with these you know,the Shoulder programming and the other Yellowstone series.
But um, yeah, a bigfan in uh, you know,
hopeful it's gonna gonna return soon.Rich, Thanks for this time. Congrats
on distinguished member in the National WrestlingHall of Fame, and we will see
you at Final X in Newark,New Jersey. We cannot wait for that

(56:50):
event. Yeah, me either,and thanks guys. Appreciate both of you,
guys. Man just and you guysare our studs in our sport and
we owe you a huge debtic attitudefor the information that you distribute in the
passion by which you cover our sport. In Man, this event in uh
that's coming up in Stillwater the Hallof Fame. You guys are as deserving

(57:13):
of any award as I am.So thank you for what you do.
Thanks, Rich, We appreciate yourtime and thanks for coming on. All
right, guys, be well,we'll take a short break and well,
we will be back to wrap upthe show this spring. Get into the
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(57:37):
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www dot cliff keeen dot com andclick Performance Apparel under the shop Wrestling tab.
Wrapping things up with Rich Bender,we got a retrospective on what happened
in twenty thirteen. From Rich Bender'sperspective. I'm glad that he did not
find any value in the ball draw. That was a horrendous moment in our

(58:21):
sport. And it is funny goingback and watching matches from that era.
When you look up someone there wasa match I wanted to watch between Helen
Marules and Tanya Verbig. Tanya isthe new assistant women's coach at the University
of Iowashu from Canada. But itwas the ball draw era in twenty twelve,
I think it was, and itwas just brutal to watch. You

(58:43):
see him point to the leg thatthey want and the referees are telling them
to get in the right position,and the percentages if you get the ball
draw to win or astronomical. Sothank goodness we're past that and we are
on a nice era for the sportof wrestling and you just don't see the
arguments like you used to. It'stransparency. You get to watch the reviews

(59:07):
on the monitor. And that wasthat was not happening during that era.
Let's just say that that was bad. Yeah, it was. It was
bad. Like how much how muchof a gong show was it? With
all clinches not just you know,like leg clinch then the upper body clench,

(59:28):
and like did this guy get afair enough lock? Did he get
too much of an advantage? Likeit was it was such a mess,
And thank goodness for past that.But fun to hear his perspective on what
happened and that he saw some thingscoming, not that the sport was going
to get dropped potentially, but thathe knew it wasn't on the right path
and he didn't get into it.But he has said that that was the

(59:51):
most important moment in wrestling history,and I agree. We needed that slap
in the face. We needed toget things cleaned up. I think if
Carrie Colt would have been wrestling duringthis era, he would have won world
championships because you wouldn't have gone behindclosed doors and reverse decisions, which is
just absolute robbery that Kerry Colt doesnot have a world or Olympic title.

(01:00:17):
We had Rich Bender on for AndyHamilton. I am Kyle Klingman. Thanks
to Cliff Keen Athletic, you've beenlistening on the map