September 13, 2024 • 18 mins
Welcome to One Bad Podcast.
Join Kurt and Shane as they kick off 20 years worth of stories, memories and advice for up-and-coming Canadian rock and roll bands.
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Shane Volk: https://www.shaneconneryvolk.com/
Kurt Dahl: https://lawyerdrummer.com/
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Join Kurt and Shane as they kick off 20 years worth of stories, memories and advice for up-and-coming Canadian rock and roll bands.
You can watch One Bad Podcast on YouTube, here: https://youtu.be/DIn99sZPj6U
Checkout One Bad Son online: https://www.onebadson.com/
Shane Volk: https://www.shaneconneryvolk.com/
Kurt Dahl: https://lawyerdrummer.com/
If you are a content creator, new or experienced, join our team!
If you'd like to advertise with us, head to our website.
Join the movement here: https://www.dufferinave.com/
Socials:
https://www.instagram.com/onebadson
https://www.facebook.com/onebadson/
https://x.com/OneBadSon
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome the One Bad Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Here's your host Kati and Shaner.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Katie.
Speaker 3 (00:11):
So now we're you know, we're coming up on the
maiden the name and rock and Sorry made in the
name of rock and roll era.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
And you know, this was such a.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
It's a crazy time because you know, we've touched on
it in the last couple episodes, how like we had
more success than we've ever had, playing bigger shows than
we ever played, getting more success on the radio, and
all of that, but there was still this for me,
there was like this thing was creeping in of kind
of like running in Quicksand, where it was like we're
(00:45):
working harder and somehow you almost feel like you're not
really getting farther. Like we talked a lot about just
how money wasn't really stacking up and just kind of
even feeling like the tours were starting to get you know,
you're playing the same places to the same amounts of people.
It was almost like this I kind of had that
(01:05):
feeling of sort of plateauing. But I think that's the
best way I could put it, is like kind of
running in Quicksand, where you're like we're working harder but
not seeing any headway.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Right. Like that was how I kind of felt going
into Made in the Name. I don't know how you
were feeling.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
I feel in some ways like those that Black Buffalo
era was like we were the tightest we'd been musically,
but also like just as a band of bros, you know,
and then in those pressures of real life, which was
sort of alluded to last episode, you know, started to
just creep in on us, right, and it sort of
created some strain I think amongst us, as it would anyone.
(01:44):
I think, right, it's like it'd be different if you,
you know, be different if you all of a sudden,
just we had a song that just went viral and
now we're making you know, we're headlining Budweiser stage or
whatever in Toronto, right, Like we didn't quite get that.
We're always looking for that. That thing just catapulted us.
But we never had one of those crazy moments. All
(02:06):
of our growth was sort of gradual, and we earned
every show, every fan and then, so like in some
ways it was nice. It was just it was kind
of like a steady growth, you know, like but it
was it was never just like boom, right, although I
think in hindsight it would be nice to have one
of those crazy shots up, but that it wasn't the
OLBS story, right, Like, we were an old fashioned rock
(02:29):
band in a lot of ways, right Like, we.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Weren't like exactly like.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Well and I think that you go ahead.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
No, I was going to say, you're one hundred percent right,
And I think that I also felt like, and you know,
looking back, like there's no one to lay blame on.
But I also I kind of felt like, again, we
were doing what was asked of us, and you know,
we would sit around racking our brains as to like
ways to sort of break out of this box we
were in. You know, one of the things that you
(02:57):
talked about in the last episode was like how do
we get down to the US, Like how do we
start really pushing that?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Right?
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Like, you know, people probably don't understand or know nor
should they that pushing a single in the United States,
you know, talking straight up numbers. It's like, you know,
you're you're paying sixty thousand dollars per single in some cases. Right,
So it wasn't like, oh, just.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Go yeah that, Yeah, I remember, that's a great point.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Around that time, Yeah, we did some research, like so
we've done a bunch of hits, hits in Canada, what
does it cost in America? And yeah, what they say,
and the research that I had done and have confirmed
since it's like if you have a song that takes
off and you want to take it all the way
to number one, which you got to keep sort of
feeding the feeding the machine as on the way up,
it's a million dollars, Like that's in pop a million
(03:48):
bucks just in radio costs. Right for rockets, Let's say
it's a half mill, which we we didn't have five
grand littlone five hundred grand, right, so and then we
also found that our label was you know, and this
is no not not speaking on a turn here, but they.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Didn't really care to push us in America.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
Like because to them, it's paying the ass to they
got to spend a bunch of money to break a
band that they have no guarantee will work in the US. Right,
And I think the similar thing happens to so many
Canadian bands. The Tragedy Hip is a great example, like
how did they never break in the US? All those songs?
I mean, New Orleans is sick? And how is that
not a hit in America?
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Right?
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Right?
Speaker 4 (04:27):
But it's because the label and the powers that be
just you know, they it's it's a it's a major
risk that you can they can break you in Canada
and get funding in Canada. But the US it's a
complete gamble and they're better, you know, I'm sure in
their their mindset's better make a hundred grand a show
in Canada versus five grand, ten grand to show in America, right,
(04:49):
so just keep playing the hundred grand shows, you know,
And but yeah, for us.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
When it does so no, I was gonna say, it
brings up this thing that I know that I felt
so much was like it was it was kind of
this like a constant catch twenty two because it was
always like, well, if you guys play more shows in
the US and like build up a ground swell, you know.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
But also in order to.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Play those shows, you got to you should, you know,
start working radio. But to work radio, you should start
playing some shows. Like we were getting all the messaging
of like well, it was like a cyclical kind of
like you could never get started because it's like, well,
if we're not playing anything, how are you going to
get any kind of you know, cause to get radio
in Canada as we've talked about this whole podcast. It
was like play play play, you know, hit up the
(05:34):
radio stations and be like we're back in town, like
maybe this time you give it, you know, But they
were it was always that cyclical thing.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
It was.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
You would drive us crazy because it was it felt
like excuses, like you'd said to just never do it,
never start, like, never take a shot.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Right, This is bringing up the emotions that I haven't
foul as a long.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Time, but never I I was thinking the same thing.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
Like the number of times that you and I had
that chicken and egg conversation, Like I swear if I
had five bucks every time we had that conversation, we'd
both be fucking rich.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
But it's like I remember you and I just been
like what do we do?
Speaker 4 (06:08):
It's like we do tour or radio first campaign or whatever.
And it drive us crazy because it wasn't just like
a theoretical approach. It's not like you're playing playing risk
and it's a board game. It's like this is our lives, right,
our careers, which are our lives right? And I remember
you and I just beating our heads against the wall,
thinking how are we going to do this? And you know,
(06:30):
and being met with apathy, I would say on the
label side and.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Management side for sure.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
And so I remember so to this point and to
our lovely listeners, it's like we did that. We took
the initiative and got some US tours. Remember we hounded
our agent, Ralph James, get us some US shows, and
even him, I mean from the agency side, they get
ten percent of.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Whatever they book us guarantee.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
Right, So he's booking us for maybe ten grand if
we're playing a festival and out of a and so
he gets the ground to book us in the US,
we're getting maybe five hundred bucks maybe, right, So he's
getting fifty bucks to book it. So what's the what's
the incentive for him? But also I think he knew
it's gonna be a shitty tour if he did it.
But we kept on him and he finally got us
(07:16):
a US tour. I remember those those first US tours.
Remember we played that one that one vessel where they
had the big cow or something and.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
They burned a wooden cow. But yeah, you know.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
It was like we did these tours, played these shows.
I remember setting up like, hey, we're playing in Chicago, right,
one of the great cities in the world and one
of the great music cities in the world, and like
no one came.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
They were just like no one cares.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
Literally, dude, that show literally no one was there. There
was zero people in the bar, and it that like
what a snap back to like our early days, because
you're literally starting the show to nobody and you know,
two songs in a couple people come in and well
they really liked it, you know, so when you guys
coming back.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah, it was it was like it was the worst.
Speaker 4 (08:02):
It was the worst kind of deja vu, the kind
where it's like, yeah, that feeling it brought up. I
could feel it kind of even within right now, like
it's coming coming up.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
You know.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
It's like that feeling of like, oh my god, we're
doing this again, man, Like we're doing we're doing those
tours which we did back in I guess two thousand
and six, two and seven, where no one came, no
one cared. It's just it's just disheartening, right, Like it
sort of remembers us having this conversation. It takes a
bit of your soul every time you do it right,
because you all that time and effort in preparation and
(08:32):
we put on a good show, but to two people
it was just like soul sucking. So so yeah, it
was like that was that sort of that space we're in,
which is weird after you've had all those successes, we're
sort of in this this sort of what what did.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Matt Hicks call? Where you're not in heaven and not
in hell.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
You're in it's likeative like rock purgatory, Rocky, Yeah, we're
we're in purgatory.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Right.
Speaker 4 (08:55):
It's like, you guys have done well, you did what
we asked of you, but you're not successful really because
you haven't delivered that that sort of unknown thing. And yeah,
this is uh, it's crazy to bring up these It
brings up these crazy.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
I know it doesn't It actually like you actually have
like a it's like a muscle memory, like a physical
memory of just like it is a sickening feeling in
your stomach when you're about to play a show and
you realize like no one's coming, like no one's, no
one cares, you know, it's a it's a tough, tough feeling.
It's hard enough when you're starting out, but when you've
(09:30):
been at it now for whatever we're at at this point,
twelve thirteen years You're like, man, it's hard to go
through that again, you know.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
Well, yeah, we felt like we did been there already, right,
So yeah, and I think it's like it's one of
those things where it felt like we can't go we
can't do it all again.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Like and that's where.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
If it felt the pressure of like either we and
I should I say I should say this too. I mean,
thank god at the time, we didn't have any issues
with drugs or alcohol. I mean, all we crushed a
fair amount of drinks probably back then, but you know,
we all were we could all manage it, right, Like
you can imagine why so many bands get derailed in
that sort of purgatory, that that perpetual state of unknown.
(10:16):
It's like, well, I don't know, I don't know what's
gonna happen, So let's let's numb the uncertainty with drugs, right,
And you know that's why so many bands fail. But
we we didn't have that, thankfully, and we did we
still had each other as a group, which I think
is really key, you.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Know, absolutely, dude, you know, and it's good to lay
this foundation going into uh, you know again, I get
I get a little fuzzy on some of these timelines
about like when exactly we're writing or not. But we're
back in Saskatoon at this point and feeling this, you know,
feeling this like I mean, I guess desperations the word right,
(10:51):
because you're kind of like, you know, the team is
hands off. Everybody's a little like, well, you know, they
didn't know why we were successful to begin with, Like
our you know, the label was just always like, oh hey, congratulations,
top five, Wow, awesome, Like we don't know what to
do with that because we didn't think you were going
to do it. So it was always this kind of
(11:11):
like the team was pretty hands off. We were racking
our brain as to what to do, and so going
into the next record, which didn't have a name yet, obviously,
we were like, you know, write the best songs we can, obviously,
but like what's the missing piece? You know, And we'd
had amazing producers, like, you know, we talked about Neil
(11:34):
who did our first two record, first two records, Danny
Craig from Default who did the Red album and is like,
you know, that album still sounds incredible. Eric Ratz did
Black Buffalo and it was like one of my favorite
recording experiences, and I thought, you know, again, those songs
sounded amazing, but it was kind of like do we
go with a hit make like a quote unquote hit maker, right?
Speaker 1 (11:56):
And kind of.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
We really got personal, like why are we not breaking through?
Speaker 1 (12:03):
You know?
Speaker 3 (12:03):
And I know that for myself there was a lot
of kind of you know, I'm an artist, you know,
I get I want things my way. I had control issues,
especially then Luckily, like through great friends and an amazing
wife and a great support group, like you know, I've
been able to work through a lot of that stuff,
(12:24):
and this era kind of started a lot of that
for me, of just saying like is it.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Time to let go?
Speaker 3 (12:29):
Kind of just like do we completely let go, like
just give ourselves over to a hit maker? And like
knowing that you and I are never going to like
quote unquote sell out and just say like, hey, do
whatever you want with us, but it was kind of
I remember we had very serious talks of like if
the missing piece is that maybe we're like, you know,
(12:52):
gripping the stick too hard and trying to be a
little too in control of everything.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Maybe it's time to like.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Get a hit maker, get somebody with like a crazy
track record and sort of you know, we're gonna write
the songs obviously, but it's like, let's maybe.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
We just say okay, you know, we're kind of.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Like we're clay, we're putty, like you know, help like
we're here to just be completely wide open, you know,
and you know, and that came from a good place.
I think we were coming from a place of saying, obviously,
we write great songs. Obviously we put on a great
show and all of that, but like what is missing?
Maybe we're kind of getting in the way, like maybe
(13:35):
we're too stuck up over over the control.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
We wanted over our own band, right.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
And I think it was a fair thing to ask,
because you're kind of like you said, man, we had
like how many of those long drives did you?
Speaker 1 (13:48):
And I have talks of like what is it? Like
what could it be?
Speaker 3 (13:52):
And so you start to go into this other place
of saying like is it a personal thing? Is there
something about us or the way we're kind of running
the band and it's is not breaking us through?
Speaker 1 (14:03):
I don't know, right, So.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
I know that that was the headspace we went into
the next record, which is, you know, find a hit
maker and sort of.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Just let go a lot more, you know.
Speaker 4 (14:16):
Yeah, yeah, and you're so right, Like there was that
question of like I remember having these discussions like what,
you know, what is it? Why can't we get to
that level where just blows up right like and.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Yeah, I remember.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
I mean I don't know if I've ever said this
to you or told this to anyone else, but I
was like for a second that I was like, maybe
we should just like, maybe we should just submit Shane
to Canadian Idol and you just have go like but
but I always thought it'd be like it be done
in a cool way where like you went on there
and just blew everyone.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Away, which you would have, right, thanks buddy.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
And and I'm glad we didn't because you know, anytime
you get those sort of get famous quick schemes, they.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Usually backfire, you know.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
Yeah, and and and thankfully didn't because you know, Jacob
Hogart already did that and he's a complete piece of shit.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
So yeah, so, uh confirmed.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
We didn't want we didn't want to be uh following
that footsteps right like be the band that made it
because the singer did that, you know. But but yeah,
I think like anyways to your point, like I guess
what I'm saying is I hear what you're saying totally
is like we were we'd had successes, and maybe from
the outsider, like a typical fan bic, we'll just keep
doing what you're doing right. But for us, the feedback
(15:33):
we kept getting end feedback as in from our team
but also just the financial feedback was like what you're
doing is not working right, Like you've had successes, but
they're not good enough, right. So that's where that's sort
of like maybe that self doubt creeped in. It's like, well,
we kind of succeeded, but not We're not like Metallica,
Pearl Jam, whatever, So what's how can we get to
(15:55):
that level?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
You know?
Speaker 4 (15:56):
And and it's also a weird time in the music
bus because the two bands I just mentioned Metallica, Pearl Jam,
Foo Fighters, Green Day, those are all nineties bands, right that, Yeah,
that blew up which a different air. The industry had
changed so much, so it's like not one of the
things that we maybe didn't give ourselves credit for is
that like we were a modern rock band that wrote
(16:16):
songs together and played our own instruments and put on
our own.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Outfits, like we did it. We did it.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
We were something that didn't really exist much anymore, right,
So yeah, thank god we didn't just say yeah, let
have someone else just change us, right, Like, we let
a producer have some kind of input, but we never
like we never sold out, right, I think that's yeah.
And we also were something that wasn't there's not many
rock and roll bands that exist like Obs is right,
(16:46):
Like they're just they're kind of going the way the
dinosaur unfortunately, and we didn't really want to accept that.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
You know, well, no, man, and I don't think I
don't even think we want to do this day because
I think that's what it's what we've always thought was
special about, especially rock and roll, was it's like there's
there's legitimacy there, right, there's that uh you know, the
idea that you could just be four people or five
people whatever writing songs. And just like you know, we said,
(17:12):
from like the day we met, like's taken on the
world like that kind of I love that stuff.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
All of our favorite bands had that.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
It wasn't like, uh, let's get some good looking people
and get somebody to write their songs and you know,
hopefully they got enough talent to make it happen and
just sort of like plug it into whatever today's thing is,
Like we weren't about that, but yeah, man, you know
we're up on time here and we're gonna get into
this more.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Uh, you know, it's funny.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Like you said, this is bringing up some like it
brings up some feelings because it was it was a
it was a tough time just to know what to
do next. So we're gonna get into what we did
next on the next episode.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Let's do it. Thanks for listening to One Bad Podcast.
Welcome the One Bad Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Here's your host Kati and Shaner.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Katie.
Speaker 3 (00:11):
So now we're you know, we're coming up on the
maiden the name and rock and Sorry made in the
name of rock and roll era.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
And you know, this was such a.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
It's a crazy time because you know, we've touched on
it in the last couple episodes, how like we had
more success than we've ever had, playing bigger shows than
we ever played, getting more success on the radio, and
all of that, but there was still this for me,
there was like this thing was creeping in of kind
of like running in Quicksand, where it was like we're
(00:45):
working harder and somehow you almost feel like you're not
really getting farther. Like we talked a lot about just
how money wasn't really stacking up and just kind of
even feeling like the tours were starting to get you know,
you're playing the same places to the same amounts of people.
It was almost like this I kind of had that
(01:05):
feeling of sort of plateauing. But I think that's the
best way I could put it, is like kind of
running in Quicksand, where you're like we're working harder but
not seeing any headway.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Right. Like that was how I kind of felt going
into Made in the Name. I don't know how you
were feeling.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
I feel in some ways like those that Black Buffalo
era was like we were the tightest we'd been musically,
but also like just as a band of bros, you know,
and then in those pressures of real life, which was
sort of alluded to last episode, you know, started to
just creep in on us, right, and it sort of
created some strain I think amongst us, as it would anyone.
(01:44):
I think, right, it's like it'd be different if you,
you know, be different if you all of a sudden,
just we had a song that just went viral and
now we're making you know, we're headlining Budweiser stage or
whatever in Toronto, right, Like we didn't quite get that.
We're always looking for that. That thing just catapulted us.
But we never had one of those crazy moments. All
(02:06):
of our growth was sort of gradual, and we earned
every show, every fan and then, so like in some
ways it was nice. It was just it was kind
of like a steady growth, you know, like but it
was it was never just like boom, right, although I
think in hindsight it would be nice to have one
of those crazy shots up, but that it wasn't the
OLBS story, right, Like, we were an old fashioned rock
(02:29):
band in a lot of ways, right Like, we.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Weren't like exactly like.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Well and I think that you go ahead.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
No, I was going to say, you're one hundred percent right,
And I think that I also felt like, and you know,
looking back, like there's no one to lay blame on.
But I also I kind of felt like, again, we
were doing what was asked of us, and you know,
we would sit around racking our brains as to like
ways to sort of break out of this box we
were in. You know, one of the things that you
(02:57):
talked about in the last episode was like how do
we get down to the US, Like how do we
start really pushing that?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Right?
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Like, you know, people probably don't understand or know nor
should they that pushing a single in the United States,
you know, talking straight up numbers. It's like, you know,
you're you're paying sixty thousand dollars per single in some cases. Right,
So it wasn't like, oh, just.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Go yeah that, Yeah, I remember, that's a great point.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Around that time, Yeah, we did some research, like so
we've done a bunch of hits, hits in Canada, what
does it cost in America? And yeah, what they say,
and the research that I had done and have confirmed
since it's like if you have a song that takes
off and you want to take it all the way
to number one, which you got to keep sort of
feeding the feeding the machine as on the way up,
it's a million dollars, Like that's in pop a million
(03:48):
bucks just in radio costs. Right for rockets, Let's say
it's a half mill, which we we didn't have five
grand littlone five hundred grand, right, so and then we
also found that our label was you know, and this
is no not not speaking on a turn here, but they.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Didn't really care to push us in America.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
Like because to them, it's paying the ass to they
got to spend a bunch of money to break a
band that they have no guarantee will work in the US. Right,
And I think the similar thing happens to so many
Canadian bands. The Tragedy Hip is a great example, like
how did they never break in the US? All those songs?
I mean, New Orleans is sick? And how is that
not a hit in America?
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Right?
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Right?
Speaker 4 (04:27):
But it's because the label and the powers that be
just you know, they it's it's a it's a major
risk that you can they can break you in Canada
and get funding in Canada. But the US it's a
complete gamble and they're better, you know, I'm sure in
their their mindset's better make a hundred grand a show
in Canada versus five grand, ten grand to show in America, right,
(04:49):
so just keep playing the hundred grand shows, you know,
And but yeah, for us.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
When it does so no, I was gonna say, it
brings up this thing that I know that I felt
so much was like it was it was kind of
this like a constant catch twenty two because it was
always like, well, if you guys play more shows in
the US and like build up a ground swell, you know.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
But also in order to.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Play those shows, you got to you should, you know,
start working radio. But to work radio, you should start
playing some shows. Like we were getting all the messaging
of like well, it was like a cyclical kind of
like you could never get started because it's like, well,
if we're not playing anything, how are you going to
get any kind of you know, cause to get radio
in Canada as we've talked about this whole podcast. It
was like play play play, you know, hit up the
(05:34):
radio stations and be like we're back in town, like
maybe this time you give it, you know, But they
were it was always that cyclical thing.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
It was.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
You would drive us crazy because it was it felt
like excuses, like you'd said to just never do it,
never start, like, never take a shot.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Right, This is bringing up the emotions that I haven't
foul as a long.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Time, but never I I was thinking the same thing.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
Like the number of times that you and I had
that chicken and egg conversation, Like I swear if I
had five bucks every time we had that conversation, we'd
both be fucking rich.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
But it's like I remember you and I just been
like what do we do?
Speaker 4 (06:08):
It's like we do tour or radio first campaign or whatever.
And it drive us crazy because it wasn't just like
a theoretical approach. It's not like you're playing playing risk
and it's a board game. It's like this is our lives, right,
our careers, which are our lives right? And I remember
you and I just beating our heads against the wall,
thinking how are we going to do this? And you know,
(06:30):
and being met with apathy, I would say on the
label side and.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Management side for sure.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
And so I remember so to this point and to
our lovely listeners, it's like we did that. We took
the initiative and got some US tours. Remember we hounded
our agent, Ralph James, get us some US shows, and
even him, I mean from the agency side, they get
ten percent of.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Whatever they book us guarantee.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
Right, So he's booking us for maybe ten grand if
we're playing a festival and out of a and so
he gets the ground to book us in the US,
we're getting maybe five hundred bucks maybe, right, So he's
getting fifty bucks to book it. So what's the what's
the incentive for him? But also I think he knew
it's gonna be a shitty tour if he did it.
But we kept on him and he finally got us
(07:16):
a US tour. I remember those those first US tours.
Remember we played that one that one vessel where they
had the big cow or something and.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
They burned a wooden cow. But yeah, you know.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
It was like we did these tours, played these shows.
I remember setting up like, hey, we're playing in Chicago, right,
one of the great cities in the world and one
of the great music cities in the world, and like
no one came.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
They were just like no one cares.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
Literally, dude, that show literally no one was there. There
was zero people in the bar, and it that like
what a snap back to like our early days, because
you're literally starting the show to nobody and you know,
two songs in a couple people come in and well
they really liked it, you know, so when you guys
coming back.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah, it was it was like it was the worst.
Speaker 4 (08:02):
It was the worst kind of deja vu, the kind
where it's like, yeah, that feeling it brought up. I
could feel it kind of even within right now, like
it's coming coming up.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
You know.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
It's like that feeling of like, oh my god, we're
doing this again, man, Like we're doing we're doing those
tours which we did back in I guess two thousand
and six, two and seven, where no one came, no
one cared. It's just it's just disheartening, right, Like it
sort of remembers us having this conversation. It takes a
bit of your soul every time you do it right,
because you all that time and effort in preparation and
(08:32):
we put on a good show, but to two people
it was just like soul sucking. So so yeah, it
was like that was that sort of that space we're in,
which is weird after you've had all those successes, we're
sort of in this this sort of what what did.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Matt Hicks call? Where you're not in heaven and not
in hell.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
You're in it's likeative like rock purgatory, Rocky, Yeah, we're
we're in purgatory.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Right.
Speaker 4 (08:55):
It's like, you guys have done well, you did what
we asked of you, but you're not successful really because
you haven't delivered that that sort of unknown thing. And yeah,
this is uh, it's crazy to bring up these It
brings up these crazy.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
I know it doesn't It actually like you actually have
like a it's like a muscle memory, like a physical
memory of just like it is a sickening feeling in
your stomach when you're about to play a show and
you realize like no one's coming, like no one's, no
one cares, you know, it's a it's a tough, tough feeling.
It's hard enough when you're starting out, but when you've
(09:30):
been at it now for whatever we're at at this point,
twelve thirteen years You're like, man, it's hard to go
through that again, you know.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
Well, yeah, we felt like we did been there already, right,
So yeah, and I think it's like it's one of
those things where it felt like we can't go we
can't do it all again.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Like and that's where.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
If it felt the pressure of like either we and
I should I say I should say this too. I mean,
thank god at the time, we didn't have any issues
with drugs or alcohol. I mean, all we crushed a
fair amount of drinks probably back then, but you know,
we all were we could all manage it, right, Like
you can imagine why so many bands get derailed in
that sort of purgatory, that that perpetual state of unknown.
(10:16):
It's like, well, I don't know, I don't know what's
gonna happen, So let's let's numb the uncertainty with drugs, right,
And you know that's why so many bands fail. But
we we didn't have that, thankfully, and we did we
still had each other as a group, which I think
is really key, you.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Know, absolutely, dude, you know, and it's good to lay
this foundation going into uh, you know again, I get
I get a little fuzzy on some of these timelines
about like when exactly we're writing or not. But we're
back in Saskatoon at this point and feeling this, you know,
feeling this like I mean, I guess desperations the word right,
(10:51):
because you're kind of like, you know, the team is
hands off. Everybody's a little like, well, you know, they
didn't know why we were successful to begin with, Like
our you know, the label was just always like, oh hey, congratulations,
top five, Wow, awesome, Like we don't know what to
do with that because we didn't think you were going
to do it. So it was always this kind of
(11:11):
like the team was pretty hands off. We were racking
our brain as to what to do, and so going
into the next record, which didn't have a name yet, obviously,
we were like, you know, write the best songs we can, obviously,
but like what's the missing piece? You know, And we'd
had amazing producers, like, you know, we talked about Neil
(11:34):
who did our first two record, first two records, Danny
Craig from Default who did the Red album and is like,
you know, that album still sounds incredible. Eric Ratz did
Black Buffalo and it was like one of my favorite
recording experiences, and I thought, you know, again, those songs
sounded amazing, but it was kind of like do we
go with a hit make like a quote unquote hit maker, right?
Speaker 1 (11:56):
And kind of.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
We really got personal, like why are we not breaking through?
Speaker 1 (12:03):
You know?
Speaker 3 (12:03):
And I know that for myself there was a lot
of kind of you know, I'm an artist, you know,
I get I want things my way. I had control issues,
especially then Luckily, like through great friends and an amazing
wife and a great support group, like you know, I've
been able to work through a lot of that stuff,
(12:24):
and this era kind of started a lot of that
for me, of just saying like is it.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Time to let go?
Speaker 3 (12:29):
Kind of just like do we completely let go, like
just give ourselves over to a hit maker? And like
knowing that you and I are never going to like
quote unquote sell out and just say like, hey, do
whatever you want with us, but it was kind of
I remember we had very serious talks of like if
the missing piece is that maybe we're like, you know,
(12:52):
gripping the stick too hard and trying to be a
little too in control of everything.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Maybe it's time to like.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Get a hit maker, get somebody with like a crazy
track record and sort of you know, we're gonna write
the songs obviously, but it's like, let's maybe.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
We just say okay, you know, we're kind of.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Like we're clay, we're putty, like you know, help like
we're here to just be completely wide open, you know,
and you know, and that came from a good place.
I think we were coming from a place of saying, obviously,
we write great songs. Obviously we put on a great
show and all of that, but like what is missing?
Maybe we're kind of getting in the way, like maybe
(13:35):
we're too stuck up over over the control.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
We wanted over our own band, right.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
And I think it was a fair thing to ask,
because you're kind of like you said, man, we had
like how many of those long drives did you?
Speaker 1 (13:48):
And I have talks of like what is it? Like
what could it be?
Speaker 3 (13:52):
And so you start to go into this other place
of saying like is it a personal thing? Is there
something about us or the way we're kind of running
the band and it's is not breaking us through?
Speaker 1 (14:03):
I don't know, right, So.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
I know that that was the headspace we went into
the next record, which is, you know, find a hit
maker and sort of.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Just let go a lot more, you know.
Speaker 4 (14:16):
Yeah, yeah, and you're so right, Like there was that
question of like I remember having these discussions like what,
you know, what is it? Why can't we get to
that level where just blows up right like and.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Yeah, I remember.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
I mean I don't know if I've ever said this
to you or told this to anyone else, but I
was like for a second that I was like, maybe
we should just like, maybe we should just submit Shane
to Canadian Idol and you just have go like but
but I always thought it'd be like it be done
in a cool way where like you went on there
and just blew everyone.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Away, which you would have, right, thanks buddy.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
And and I'm glad we didn't because you know, anytime
you get those sort of get famous quick schemes, they.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Usually backfire, you know.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
Yeah, and and and thankfully didn't because you know, Jacob
Hogart already did that and he's a complete piece of shit.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
So yeah, so, uh confirmed.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
We didn't want we didn't want to be uh following
that footsteps right like be the band that made it
because the singer did that, you know. But but yeah,
I think like anyways to your point, like I guess
what I'm saying is I hear what you're saying totally
is like we were we'd had successes, and maybe from
the outsider, like a typical fan bic, we'll just keep
doing what you're doing right. But for us, the feedback
(15:33):
we kept getting end feedback as in from our team
but also just the financial feedback was like what you're
doing is not working right, Like you've had successes, but
they're not good enough, right. So that's where that's sort
of like maybe that self doubt creeped in. It's like, well,
we kind of succeeded, but not We're not like Metallica,
Pearl Jam, whatever, So what's how can we get to
(15:55):
that level?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
You know?
Speaker 4 (15:56):
And and it's also a weird time in the music
bus because the two bands I just mentioned Metallica, Pearl Jam,
Foo Fighters, Green Day, those are all nineties bands, right that, Yeah,
that blew up which a different air. The industry had
changed so much, so it's like not one of the
things that we maybe didn't give ourselves credit for is
that like we were a modern rock band that wrote
(16:16):
songs together and played our own instruments and put on
our own.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Outfits, like we did it. We did it.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
We were something that didn't really exist much anymore, right,
So yeah, thank god we didn't just say yeah, let
have someone else just change us, right, Like, we let
a producer have some kind of input, but we never
like we never sold out, right, I think that's yeah.
And we also were something that wasn't there's not many
rock and roll bands that exist like Obs is right,
(16:46):
Like they're just they're kind of going the way the
dinosaur unfortunately, and we didn't really want to accept that.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
You know, well, no, man, and I don't think I
don't even think we want to do this day because
I think that's what it's what we've always thought was
special about, especially rock and roll, was it's like there's
there's legitimacy there, right, there's that uh you know, the
idea that you could just be four people or five
people whatever writing songs. And just like you know, we said,
(17:12):
from like the day we met, like's taken on the
world like that kind of I love that stuff.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
All of our favorite bands had that.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
It wasn't like, uh, let's get some good looking people
and get somebody to write their songs and you know,
hopefully they got enough talent to make it happen and
just sort of like plug it into whatever today's thing is,
Like we weren't about that, but yeah, man, you know
we're up on time here and we're gonna get into
this more.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Uh, you know, it's funny.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Like you said, this is bringing up some like it
brings up some feelings because it was it was a
it was a tough time just to know what to
do next. So we're gonna get into what we did
next on the next episode.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Let's do it. Thanks for listening to One Bad Podcast.
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