November 29, 2025 • 43 mins
More on today's guest as featured on OneLegUpAlex Adapting: Stephanie Lee Jackson founded Practical Sanctuary, Sensory Interior Design, when her art and healing practices converged. As a professional fine artist, she founded art spaces in New York and San Francisco, exhibiting her paintings internationally. As a massage therapist, she founded Practical Bodywork in Philadelphia. Practical Sanctuary uses cutting edge neuroscience to create spaces that help you focus, heal, emotionally regulate, and build community. Her clients call it ‘space therapy.’ Stephanie is a highly sensitive person with many friends and family on the autism spectrum. Her mission is to create inclusive environments for all neurotypes. Her book, The Eccentric Genius Habitat Intervention: Interior Design For Highly Sensitive People is coming out in 2025.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Here's your host, Alex Darren. Once again here on the
onely Cup Network. We are going to go into the
adaptive world for this time, neurodivergence and how we can
help people with those when neurodivergence and I have the
owner and CEO of Practical Sanctuary, Stephanie Lee Jackson, and
(00:23):
that is your specialty, neurodiversens and when we did our
pre show chat, we really hit it off, so I
wanted to see what kind of everyway doing. I'm glad
to have you today on the onely Cup Network.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Thanks, Thanks Alex. It's good to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
So it's interesting because when you talk neurodert virgins, you
would expect the person running the company to actually be neurodiverson.
But let's start there. No, but you've been around many.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
That are yes. Yeah, I'm what you could call a
highly sensitive person, which means that we're about twenty percent
of the population and we are we are taking in
more data, we were more sensitive and more affected by
all kinds of sensory and emotional input. As a highly
(01:06):
sensitive person, I've always liked quirky people. I've just been
drawn to the odd balls. And that was true before
we had a name for it, and as I've gotten older,
more and more and more of my oldest friends have
either self diagnosed or received diagnosis as some kind of neurodivergent.
(01:29):
That means ADHD OCD, autism, spectrum sensory processing disorder, and
I would include trauma in that because trauma changes the brain.
I define neurodivergence as a difference in patterns of attention,
(01:50):
brain organization, sensory input, sensory processing. And basically your brain
just works differently. It's wired a little bit differently, and
I find that fascinating.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Because sometimes you know, for me in an interview, it
takes a little bit more to focus. Does that mean
there's something neuro there that like that.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Is one hundred percent neurodivergent. I think, as we discussed
during our pre interview, you think you have ADHD yes, yes,
given that you told me that you always have like
five devices.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
On it once true, I do. I actually do. And
that stems from from from the seventy seven days in
the NICKEU where there were blinking lights and flashing lights
and noises and pumped up to everything on. I think
that's what my parents attributed to. Anyway, so I feel that.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Yeah, so some of it is is inborn, some of
it's genetic, and some of it is how you are,
things have happened to you in your life. So I
don't consider myself designing just for neurodivergent people. I consider
myself designing for everyone, including neurodivergent people. And I believe
(03:06):
that if we take neurodivergence and highly sensitive as a baseline,
we're making the environment better for everyone, because even those
neurotypical people get easily get distracted, get overwhelmed, and have
difficulty focusing in a chaotic environment.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
All right, so multitasking, yeah, is that neurodivergence too like
a skill set for that?
Speaker 2 (03:31):
There is no such thing as multitasking. You are switching
your attention very rapidly. People with ADHD have a difference
in brain chemicals that your short term memory does not
hold as many things in your immediate attention, so you
will be more easily distractable. So you will be balancing
(03:52):
around from things in your environment because they're able to
get your attention because you haven't narrowed your attention in
with the exception. Okay, do you do you want me
to go into hyper focus again. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Well, and I tell you why it's that because as
we're talking, I'm on my computer at work to see
what work I gotta do. As like, there's just a
bunch of things that I feel like I can do
in one task. And lack of focus has been something
since I was in kindergarten. Every teacher and everybody ever noticed,
like just the fact I've never focused on one thing.
(04:27):
It can be a detriment, but sometimes it's a strength.
I guess I don't know it is.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
It's a strength, it's it's depending on how you manage it.
It can be a superpower and it also can be
an obstacle. The first step is understanding your own brain
and then setting up systems to support your brain to
do what you want it to do.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
It's amazing because you've sort of redefined it for me.
I always thought ned neurodivergent was autistic autism only, but
you're sort of expanding that horizon.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
No, I'm expanding it. Yes, ADHD and autism often happen.
They use. The term they use is comorbid. They often
come together. A lot of neurodivergent people I know first
get a diagnosis of ADHD, and then they realize there's
something else going on. It's perfectly possible to have ADHD
(05:21):
and not have autism, but they really do often show
up together.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Now, social cues I feel like I'm good at. So
that's where I feel like there's a distinction, make because
I know people with autism do not take the cues
as well as maybe someone was strictly ADHD. Is that right?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Yes, that is true. That that's one of the dividing lines.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Okay, So in your practical sanctuary, right, what can people
find like why did you start this whole business up?
And also I feel like you're doing it from an
entrepreneurial perspective as well as an adaptive perspective.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Right, absolutely, yes, yes, it's found me. It was a
really obvious whole in design which no one was filling.
And for me, I was like, this is so important.
I know so many people who can't function. I have
(06:17):
so many friends that I can't go sit in a
cafe with and have a conversation because they can't track
a conversation a lot of chaotic, dark noise around it
just their brain can't process the conversation with a lot
of background noise because they can't filter it out. That's
a neurodivergent thing. Filtering sound auditory processing is frequently an
(06:39):
issue lights. So many people with ADHD or neurodivergence, like
bright lights pointing at their faces is just really uncomfortable.
Fluorescent lights can't even process that at all. So for
me is this is glaring, glaring problem with the way
things are put together, and was addressing it. I'd be
(07:01):
going around pointing it out and people are just kind
of like the like, we can't do anything about That's
just what the contractor put in.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Now, I want to ask about whether people are conscious
of them darting their eyes a certain way, or if
they're not and they just do it naturally, because for me,
I feel really bad if I'm like looking at a
group of people, I'll try to focus on a conversation.
I know I'm doing it, and I still do it anyway.
Like do people, though in our diversence, not think of
it that way? They're not.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
It really depends on the person. We are born in
the nervous system. We're born in. We live in it.
That's our reality. We're not analyzing it. We're not we
start out, we're not comparing it to other people. Our
experience is what we know, and we kind of assume
that everyone else is having the same experience. So that's
(07:49):
the first thing I do with people is walk you
through a process where you start to do some fun
exercises and figure out your own nervous system, figure out
where you're sensitive, where you're struggling, where you may be
(08:10):
seeking more sensory seeking. We did talk about that too,
and start to like place yourself, like where is my
nervous system different from other people's, Perhaps what things in
my environment are causing me discomfort draining my energy That
I haven't really thought about it because I just accept
(08:32):
it for the way it is. Being aware of things
is the first step to being able to adapt. If
you don't know that there's an issue, you're just gonna
just keep kind of floundering.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
On through Saturday, I was trying to rerest up from
my five kre and Yankey Sat, which was just a
fun event. Sounds fun, but in my room, my childhood room.
I went back home to Queens and like, there's a
bunch of books around me, and I'm like, why am
I scrolling on my phone when I should really be reading?
But I never did read a book, Like I don't
know what there is there, but it's like in my brain,
(09:06):
I'm like, I shouldn't be scrolling, but because there's a
bunch of books around me, Well, how do we turn
out and start reading.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
You're at the mercy of your environment if you have
an intention and you're shooting yourself. First of all, I
want to point that out, don't shoot all over yourself.
If you have an intention, if you have a goal,
there's something you really want and you start to notice it,
I'm just getting distracted with all of this stuff. That's
your first step becoming aware of the issue. And then
(09:35):
the next step is to set up your environment and
get some help. Like everyone I know with ADHD needs help,
because that executive function piece is really really tough for people.
Get some help, help discover those goals and then get
the help setting up your environment that's going to enable
(09:56):
you to buy default do the thing that's going to
get you to that goal. That's one of the things I.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Help people do, almost like functioning the room right and
trying to get.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
It yes, but more so way and make it way
more personal.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
All right, So there's an intensity to organization for people
with neurodivergence, right, Like, it has to be organized and
then you have that whole there's a there's a term
for it. I can't think of it right now, but
where it has to be all organized and in the
right place.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Well, if that's what you need, yes, and organized means
different things to different people. So I have to figure out, like,
what what's going to work for this particular person. No,
two neurodivergent people are alike. Their brains don't work the
same way, either as neurotypical people or as other neurodivergent people.
(10:53):
So I first just take my clients through this process
of understanding how their brain works and then figuring out
what structures and systems are going to support their particular brain.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
And OCD is a term I was thinking of, do
you help people with.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Yes, I do.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Well that that's good to know as well. And I mean,
sometimes though all of these different factors and the way
our brain thinks, I don't want to say it can
be a detriment, but it can hold us back a
little bit. How do we make sure it doesn't hold
this back and say, Okay, let's not freak out that
this thing's not in order. Let's just let it be right.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
I will coach you through that too. A lot of
the exhaustion that happens when your surroundings are draining you
is that your brain is editing out the things it
doesn't want to deal with, and that takes energy, that
takes bandwidth.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
So that's basically selective listening if you think about.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
It, right, Yeah, it's it's selective attention of all kinds,
whether it's listening or looking or thinking about or tripping
over your your brain is focusing on a few things
and using energy to just take the rest out of
your your view. And what I can do is just
(12:16):
against very simple techniques, help you frame your surroundings so
that you can bring that to your attention. Bring the
things that you're editing out to your attention, clear them,
get rid of them, and then you're in an environment
that is naturally allowing you to use all of your
bandwidth for what you want to use it for, rather
(12:38):
than using a lot of it to selectively.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
No, you know, it's interesting that I found that as
I've gotten used to just scrolling and all that and
not paying attention, like, I've just gotten to the point
where I want to hang out with people who keep
my attention in a conversation. Like, if you can't do that,
then I don't know if it's worth spending all my
time because to right to have someone's attention or to
(13:04):
capture my attention, it does take a lot. I realized it.
Maybe that's you go this say, but just what it is.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Well, that's your filter. Yeah, I mean we all want
friends that that bring out the best in us. And
if you're with a bunch of normies who bore you,
that's your clue. Okay, maybe I'm not with the right
set of people, and that's okay, it's not it's no, no,
no shade on them.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Like my colleagues are great, Like I could just pay
and just want they're talking about all day, Like I
love that.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Well, there you go, so you have the great the
best colleagues. Who are your colleagues.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
We're all in radio, so we're all kind of radio
guys that just just know the board. Socially, we're just
we click, you know what I mean. It's it's all
the way of clicking.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Well, I imagine being in radio, You're you're paying attention to
so many different things, like you're seeking out the interesting things. Yeah,
and that can be your superpower, like really finding the
new and interesting things that your brain is always looking for.
More so it's a perfect career for you.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
And my apps always tell me what news would cover
on my pockyat So there's that too, all right. Yeah,
I often know that nerd divergence are excluded from a
lot of things, either intentionally or unintentionally. So did that
inclusion aspect inspire you to start practical.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Really very much?
Speaker 1 (14:20):
So?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Yes? Yes, I mean inclusion is a real core value
of mine. It has been, you know, since I can remember,
Like I was always seeking out the person that was
having a rough time and just befriending them and appreciating
them and like wanting to bring them in. And there
is inclusion is touchy because just tolerating people is not
(14:45):
good enough. No one wants to be tolerated. We want
to be appreciated and seen for who we are. And
I don't want to change people to make them fit in.
I want to expand the circle. And that takes a
little work on the part of everyone. It's not easy,
(15:05):
but it's very rewarding. And so part of what I
do is like create that bridge, is I work with
everyone on like their goals, who they are, but I'm
reflecting back what I see. I am sensitive and introverted,
so I will be paying very close attention to you
(15:27):
and pulling out your superpowers and your strengths and asking
you and digging deeper and deeper until I can really
see who you are, what your you know, what your
strengths are, and start to clear out the stuff that
isn't you and ample poty those things that are you
(15:47):
you yes, yes, your superpowers And like a lot of
times when people have been excluded and they've been you know,
hurt and crushed, it's like their light is I help
give them a spiritual glow up. Like really, I'm not
putting anything there that's not there, but I'm I'm amplifying
(16:10):
what is there and creating a sort of an environment
that like supports that and reflects that back to them.
So they're feeling better in their bodies, they're feeling better
in their minds, they're more clear on what their value is.
Like I am very.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Their souls on fire. Like I've been doing things the
last couple of weeks where I'm just like, all right,
I have stuff going on, but I'm gonna put that
aside for a minute and just do what I want
to do, and that feeling of just being able to
do it, like going up to Boston College who watched
the Irish playday football, Ye, going to do a five
k and stay. I mean, these are things that are
firing me up, and to actually take that time for
(16:47):
myself is something I'm not used to and be I'm
really enjoying at the same time.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Yeah, now I have a question about that five k.
So how do you run? Do you have a prosthetic?
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Do you usually know Iran? And so it was very
interesting to rain. I rollabate, I walked it and ran
it all three miles Oka and they had us go
up two flights of stairs twice. So we went stairs
of Yankee State and we pretty much went the perimeter
of the ballpark from left field to right field and
then on the lower level and then we went on
(17:19):
the warning track of Yankee State. It was okay, So
we did all that, and just being able to do
that experience and zoning everything else out was just very special. Yeah,
and I felt like I needed that. So yeah, there's that.
Now I want to ask you something about your sensitivity.
But also as a business owner. You have to run
your business, So how do you manage the both of them?
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Like, how do you developed when you need to get
tough as Mike question?
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Right, No, I've I've developed the systems that I need
to regulate my own nervous system. And every time I
scale up, there's there's a process. Like I published a
book in September. It took me three years to finish it.
I had given myself two years. It took me an
extra year, and I had a migraine for six weeks
before that book launched. It was stressing me out so badly,
(18:09):
like getting it right, you know, feeling vulnerable about putting
it out there, organizing all them.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
So I believe you waited until it was launch for
us to actually have the conversation.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
I did. Yeah, I was way over, you know, and
I was going outside my comfort zone. And I was
aware that I was going outside my comfort zone, and
I was I had the systems in place. I'm like, Okay,
got a migraine, Now this is what's going on. You know.
I'll take my nap, I'll do my breathing exercises, I
will get it done. But I had to understand it
(18:43):
that this is my body. This is I'm pushing myself
to my limit. I'm choosing to do so for a
good reason. And I will not push myself constantly with
no break. And if it takes me longer, it takes
me longer. I have come to terms with that. And
I see so many high achievers having pushed themselves past
(19:06):
their limit for way too long, and then they have
a major health crisis that slows them down. I have
seen that so much.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
That was me last year. Gallstone's got me hospitalized for
a month and I was I was sidelined for another month.
I mean, if you don't take care of that part
of you, you're gonna go downhill pretty so yeah, I
applaud you for taking those breaks. But now they mentioned
the book plug it, plug it for my audience thinks okay.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
It's called the Eccentric Genius Habitat Intervention Interior Design for
Highly Sensitive People. You can find it on my website,
Practical Sanctuary dot com. You can also get it wherever
books are sold. It's both ebook and print, and it
is a manifesto and a how to guide. The manifesto is, first,
(19:57):
we need this. This is how your nervous system works.
This is how society is running a tractor over your
nervous system. This is how and why we need to
be thinking about this and doing it differently. And then
I take you through the steps of how to do
it for yourself, how to do it for your family,
(20:20):
and then how to expand into your community, because we
can't all we can't just be doing this all alone.
We need to be connecting with other people.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
When I think of eccentric, Jesus that I think of
these kids that are like going the Harvard at fourteen
and then you have new chess at a very young age.
Is there neurodivergence there that gets these kids?
Speaker 2 (20:38):
There could very well be, yes, But I believe.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
I knew a kid that played violin to the tea
Jeremy Cushman, back in the day. I wonder if ye
had a little because when you think about eccentric, that's
eccentric to me.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Oh yes, absolutely, yeah. Eccentric means like one sided. It's
like you've got this huge strength and then there's this
everything else is kind of like not as fully realized.
I believe that everyone has genius in some way, some
way or another. So this is not an exclusive thing.
(21:12):
But a lot of people don't perceive their own genius.
They don't feel it.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
And they're afraid to embrace it too.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Like I agree.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
It took a while for me to just branch out
on my own because I felt like I was in
the shadows of all the radio hosts I work with,
and like I can't really branch out on my own.
Then pandemic it and I realize, Okay, now's the time
to launch time here we are one leg about so
to under I'm not saying I'm a genius, but to
understand that there's something there takes a while to exactly
(21:43):
just show it to the world, you know, Yes, And
I think you're helping people show the world what they're
made of.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
That is my goal, That's that's my mission.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Yes, all right, I got a couple of million dollar
questions here, because the first thing is, obviously you do
run this business? Have you neurodivergent people to work with you?
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Right now? I am a solo outfit and I occasionally
hire contractors, Okay, I once I'm big enough, that is
a priority.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
And do you feel that people that hire like businesses
hire people with autism or nerdivergens or any kind of disability.
It often feels like a token, you know, it doesn't
feel really.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
And that's that's part of what I'm working against with this,
that that the choice of the title eccentric genius is
very intentional and a lot of the work I do
consulting with companies and advocating. Okay, I want to tell
you I recently spoke at a neurodiversity employment conference and
(22:51):
I found it a very frustrating experience because everything was
framed as we're helping these poor, sweet disabled people, and
we need to be charitable, and we need to be
nice people, we need to be good people. We need
to include these poor, sweet neurodivergent people. And there were
no freaking employers there looking to hire the amazing brains
(23:13):
that are neurodivergent. Right. I think this is a really
bad marketing problem. All the neurodivergent people I know are
brilliant in one way or another, and they are going
to be a massive asset in the right role at
the right place. I feel that excluding neurodivergent people is
(23:37):
a massive brain drain. We can't afford it as a culture.
Corporations can't afford to ignore this and I feel that
labeling this as a nonprofit as a charity is like
helping these disabled people is the wrong way to go.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Okayespecially when you look at someone who I believe is
neurodivergent Elon Musk basically rule the world.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
I mean, well, yes, and I have my issues with
Elon Musk too. He needs tempering. We've got to work together,
we've got to be understanding of differences, and we've got
to be working integreatively rather than eccentrically. Sure, right, it
shouldn't be all or nothing. We don't need to like
(24:21):
Silo and segregate the Nerdi virgin people and then have
the normies over here. We need to be each taking
some steps to understand one another and to work together
and to find the right places for people.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
All right, so someone comes in to your practical sanctuary,
Let's be honest. Nerdi Virgins always aren't always verbal. So
how do you get them to start talking and start
telling their story?
Speaker 2 (24:46):
A lot of the nonverbal clients I have, it's their
families that come to me, and a lot of what
I do I into I work with their families. I
work with their care providers, particularly their occupational therapists. I've
(25:07):
had a nonverbal client that I spent an hour on
Zoom with her occupational therapist and got, you know, all
the information about how this person likes to live and
what they need, and then I worked out a plan
based on that, because again it's integrative. I am not
creating spaces where we can park the neurodivergent people. I'm
(25:31):
not creating just sensory rooms where they can just all
kind of be in their sensory thing. I am helping
them live with the people around them. And a lot
of what I do. If I have like a family
where the child is on the spectrum and their sensory
(25:52):
seeking and they're just creating a lot of chaos, parent
is drained, I will make some changes that help the
parent get their needs met with whether or not their
child changes. A lot of times the parents kind of
be like, fix my kids so that I can get
a break. I'm like, let's get you a break. Let's
(26:14):
get you a break now, and then you have more
bandwidth for dealing with your child.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
And if parents offloading the kids just they're looking for help.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
They're just looking for help and they need it. With
caregivers do not have enough support in this culture. I
can't fix that by myself, but I can help them
see it in a larger context and get at least
one or two of their needs met.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
I'm gonna ask you this because I saw a situation
where there was clearly an autistic, like twelve year old
and some of these kids are big and they don't
know how to handle our emotions, so they start punching back,
they start getting the violent Oh yeah, oh yeah. I
saw an aide subdue the kid in the most you know,
the way he knew he could. Someone across the subway
(27:01):
PLoP from was like, what are you doing? You're hurting them.
I'm all like, no, he knows exactly what he's doing. Yeah,
But I give a credit to a lot of those aides.
I have to deal with that on a daily basis.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
They do a lot of violence. They're not getting well
paid for it either.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
I'm setting up that question to ask you, if you
have anybody with violent tendencies that come in and you
kind of not straighten them out but make them h
channel it more if you will.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
That is above my pay grade.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
People who come to me are usually very smart, very articulate,
they're coming from them for themselves to help themselves manage,
or they're coming for their children if there's there's an
adult person with violent tendencies. My mission is definitely to
(27:49):
be working on a larger scale helping to design environments
where people who can't really live on their own can
function at their best. And I have worked with nonprofits
that have like adult living for clients like that, And
I'll make where I'll make recommendations about reducing the amount
(28:12):
of like really unpleasant sensory input and creating more sensory
input that's gonna be regulating, like bring more nature in,
bring you know, get a get a gym in the
basement with some punching bags for God's sake. I mean,
I've seen spaces like so underused. So but really it's
(28:34):
about working with the larger environment, not trying to fix
an individual.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
All right. I have to ask you this because the
way you're talking, it sounds like either your background of
social work or psychology. Is that right?
Speaker 2 (28:46):
It is not, but it is one of my interests.
I'm I'm kind of a self taught psychology nerd and
self taught neuroscience nerd. I've never I considered getting a
degree in counseling or social work, but my background is
actually massage therapy. Oh wow, I work directly with people's
bodies and I'm really tuning into their nervous system when
(29:10):
I'm working, and it's just so clear how the environment
is affecting people's nervous system. So yeah, that's that was
my way in. But it could just as easily have
been psychology or social work.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
I could tell because you have that presence of mind
to just sort of get to the core of someone's situation,
you know what.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Yeah, and look at the bigger the bigger cycle.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Now the other thing. You know. I don't want to
get political here, but there is a push here to
get social workers involved in sort of cases where neurodivergence.
Maybe cops are called in to deal with neurodivergence. Yeah.
Do you think there's a way we can balance law
enforcement and social work? I mean, could it be done?
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Uh? Oh, yes, I think that cops are grossly They're
tasked with solving all the problems in society that take
a lot of effort and energy and money that we
don't want to bother with. The cops are being asked
to handle things that they are not equipped to handle
either financially, with resource wise with training. I definitely think
(30:13):
that there could be more social more social worker intervention
in situations where cops are generally called. And we've had
some tragedies in Philadelphia. We've had neurodivergent people shot to
death when they're having a mental health crisis, when what
they needed was a social worker who was maybe trained
(30:34):
in martial arts, but also trained in conflict de escalation.
I feel that the either the cops need like a
social work conflict de escalation team, or there needs to
be like a whole nother branch of where we're really
funneling resources into that and less resources into just militarized
(31:00):
in the cops.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
This is why I'm gonna have you on because obviously
it's a hot topic here in New York right now
with the mayor elect wanting to replace cops with social workers.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
I don't think they should be replaced. I think they
should be they should be collaborating.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
See that's why I think too, I don't think you've
in this band a whole department.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
You've got to work Oh no, no, no, you've got
to work together. Yes, I mean, and I really feel
for cops because they're they're being asked to deal with
mental health, They're being asked to deal with poverty, they're
being asked to deal with violence, with with trash. My god,
like I lived in New York for years, the trash
pickup is couldn't be better.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
And then I have to ask you this then, because
I've seen a lot of homeless outreach and some of
them are they're divergent. Let's be honest, they are something.
They're homeless. Yeah, and a lot of people just are
not willing to listen to these people that are in uniform.
But they say, no, we don't want the help. Yeah,
let's say these organizations come to you, how can you
fix these problems? Maybe not on the whole, but at
(32:00):
least maybe case by case where Okay, you want someone
to come with you and your homeless outreach, what would
you tell these teams that are trying.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Oh wow, again, that is above my pay grade. What
I see is that how distressed people are, how much
they act out, has a whole lot to do with
their physical environment. I was in DC recently. I live
(32:31):
in Philadelphia. I spent a week in DC. The demographic
in the areas that I was in d C was
very similar to the demographics in Philadelphia. A lot of immigrants,
a lot of working class, melting pot, like all kinds
of different people. Philadelphia has a rage problem, Like you
(32:54):
really need to be careful what you say, who you
say it to, because as there could be just an out,
there could be like a fight just in a half
a second.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
I know. Well, unfortunately see that sporting events in Philly
that does happen.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Oh yeah, I'm sure you know, yes, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
I mean there are sometimes where these people are like
are you kidding me? But it's human nature, I guess
if you think about.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
It, Okay, it's it's context. Okay, there is research about this.
When there is more green space, less annoying noise, better
public transit, the streets are cleaner DC. The streets are clean,
the public transit is clean, and.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
You don't some time. The metro in DC is so
much better. I'm like, oh my god, it is so
much better.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
You get on the train in Philly, it stinks. It's loud.
I got on the train this weekend. There was a
broken recording that just was repeating the same words over
and over in my ear. The whole trip. I was
ready to punch someone. By the time I got off
that train DC I got on the bus, people were saying, hey,
they were so sweet, they were like giving me advice.
(34:00):
It was just the environment was conducive to civility. You
put people in an uncaring, chaotic, gritty, dirty environment, they're
gonna be angry, They're gonna have trouble emotionally regulating.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Do New Yorkers give Philly fans a bad rap or
they're just some really bad a Pilly's.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Worse than New York. I've lived in both places. New
Yorkers are nicer. New york Is they take better care
of their parks. They plow the streets in the winter.
Philly doesn't plow. Yeah. Yeah, And you can really measure
that I've I've been in Europe, I've been in Mexico.
(34:41):
There is a one to one correspondence between how how pretty,
how clean, how how pleasant your surroundings are, and how
people behave. People behave differently in different environments. They've done
studies in prisons. People put in a prison like environment
start acting like bullies. You take people out of the prison,
(35:06):
put them in an environment with you know, birds and trees,
and good smells and that's clean and they're going to
be able to regulate better.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
This is such a great conversation, but I want to
highlight the word sanctuary because yeah, I do feel like
there's not enough awareness awareness with people when they're divergence
that there is a sanctuary for them. Like, yeah, And
what I've seen and observed is for nerve divergence always
(35:39):
seems chaotic, that we don't think about the word sanctuary, right,
So yeah, how do you hit that point home? Yes,
my work is a sanctuary for you.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
Well, I help show people how to create their own
personal sanctuary that has what they meet, which may not
be what someone else needs. Everyone needs something different. I
will just go through and pick out the clues in
the environment and I'll ask, I'm like, okay, I see
this object here, what meaning does it have? What do
you like about it? What is the story? How do
(36:11):
you feel about this color? How do you feel? How
do you feel? How do you feel? And how do
you feel in your body? Not just in your heart,
not in your mind, but all of that. Once we've
drilled down and I know what that person needs to
feel good, we create a tiny little place where it's
(36:31):
optimized where they have what they need. It could look
like anything. It could be a balcony, it could be
the corner of a basement. It could be the corner
of a bedroom. It could be the landing, it could
be anywhere.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
I want to share a lot of secrets, but I'll
tell you my mom and I declutter my whole room
because I had, yeah, act likes I had tryning, upon trying,
upon trying, we sort of took down everything. I got
a gram for the podcast right after we fixed everything.
We got things fixed up, cleaned up. I don't know
if I was barding everything, it just was all in
different places. So we decluded that, and then all of
(37:07):
a sudden, I got a new gig in radio. So
it is true when you change your spaces.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Things change everything. Yes, uh huh, yeah. It is a
huge effect, huge ripple effect.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
And I think it just makes you happier too.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
It does, and that is that what we all want.
We just want to be a little happier.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Well, I'm so glad we had this first coming. I
want to have so many conversations with you. But if
people want to get involved, and what's your age range?
I forgot to ask you what's your age range of kids?
It doesn't go from kid to adult. What's your age.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Range anyone who's interested. I mean, if it's kids, it's
generally their families that bring me in. I've worked with
all ages, and I also can work anywhere in the
world as long as you have a good computer connection.
A lot of my clients I work with them over Zoom,
I work with them over WhatsApp. I have clients in
other countries zoom, email, text, and I can support you
(38:01):
from anywhere I know.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
And I don't always talk about climate change, but this
has me asking about the climate and neurodivergence. Is their correlation?
Is there something that makes the brain go crazy if
our climate is not up to part.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
We're creatures, we emerge from this planet, and when the
planet's climate changes, it's going to create intense stress in
all of us one way or the other.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
I think, yeah, I know divergent people who Yeah, the
systems are all at an all time high and the
news doesn't help it. So when we talk about your sanctuary,
I think getting rid of all the news and the
bad news specifically is important, right it.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
It definitely is. If your stress level is is in
the stratospy and.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
We have people that are afraid to go out of
our house right now, how do we fix it?
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Yeah, well, one of the things I have people do
is optimize their space and get some emotional regulating practice
that your space is cueuing you and supporting you to
do so that you can expand your strength your vessel
so that you can handle more. Because like I have
(39:16):
gone on news fasts, but then when I'm in a
good place, I need to open up and take in
that news because if we're all ignoring it, it's just
going to get worse and worse. We need to be
able to manage ourselves regulate so that we can connect
with other people, we can reach out, we can start
making some positive changes.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
I know personally, I was a talkative kid and I've
still talk into a podcast. But when you're talkative kids
sometimes not really accepted. So do you find that people
have that trouble like, oh my god, I was sort
of silent?
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Oh yeah, And rejection sensitive dysphoria is huge for people
with ADHD and potentially auto really like people aren't going
to just automatically accept you words at all, And that's
not the goal. The goal is you accept yourself. You
(40:14):
understand yourself, and then you start getting the tools to
regulate yourself and learn to read the room, learn to
notice when you've been talking for forty five minutes without
taking a break. Have some kind of system for that.
And that's not something that just neutive virgent people do.
Everyone needs to learn to do that. We all need
(40:34):
to be more self aware as well as we're sex
self accepting. It's not like being self aware doesn't mean
you're just down on yourself. Oh my god, I talk
too much. I'm such a jerk. No, just be aware
and learn how to manage it. We all have to
do that, and we can expand our bands like.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Yeah, harness energy, but then really it at the same time.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
Yes, yes, exactly got it.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Well, this has been so enlightening and I feel inspired
to just keep talking on my own stuff. So thank
you for that.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
That's wonderful, and I love to.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Stay in touch and keep working with you on different things.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
Yes, of course, just reach out anytime. I'm always here.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
And one more thing, because you're on pod match and
this is powered by pod match, how's that connection been
for you.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
It's been a game changer, It really has, Like I'm
an introvert. I don't like I don't go to you know,
three networking events a week. I'm not constantly out there schmoozing.
I like deep conversations with interesting people. And pod Match
has connected me with that. So I'm very grateful.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
And we have the motto having helping people have one
leg up on life. You're doing that, but I think
now you can inspire others to especially those who have
a disability or a divergence, different ability whatever, to say, yes,
you can start your own business. Have you found you're
a divergent employer? Like, are you finding people are starting
their business that have ever virgins?
Speaker 2 (42:00):
Oh? Half of my fellow particularly women business owners adhd
you know, like they just the ordinary corporate environment just
doesn't work for them, Like they felt like they had
no other choice. And I I'm kind of in that
in that realm myself, I didn't really want to be
self employed. It's just that most corporate jobs had one
(42:22):
or two or five.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
On every threat I have on this specific topic about
entrepreneurship is about people that left corporate America to do
their to do their business. It's it's a risk, it's
not easy. But when they get off the ground and running.
Look how rewarding it can be.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
Sometimes it's the only option.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
Well, Stephanie, I can talk all day. I love this
chat and I want to have you back on soon,
especially as the book keeps growing, and that.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
Would be great. Yeah, just just let me know you've
got my contact ping me and we'll keep this going.
And if you if you read my book and you're
inspired by something, you know, just just text me and
we'll you know, we'll we'll do a little talk about it.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
And again, where can we find the one more time?
And you have a website, don't you?
Speaker 2 (43:01):
I do, yes, practical sanctuary dot com. Everything is there, email,
free e course consultations, blog posts, everything.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Stephanie ly Jackson, thanks for the time, and you're chat
today on the one loo up network
Here's your host, Alex Darren. Once again here on the
onely Cup Network. We are going to go into the
adaptive world for this time, neurodivergence and how we can
help people with those when neurodivergence and I have the
owner and CEO of Practical Sanctuary, Stephanie Lee Jackson, and
(00:23):
that is your specialty, neurodiversens and when we did our
pre show chat, we really hit it off, so I
wanted to see what kind of everyway doing. I'm glad
to have you today on the onely Cup Network.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Thanks, Thanks Alex. It's good to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
So it's interesting because when you talk neurodert virgins, you
would expect the person running the company to actually be neurodiverson.
But let's start there. No, but you've been around many.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
That are yes. Yeah, I'm what you could call a
highly sensitive person, which means that we're about twenty percent
of the population and we are we are taking in
more data, we were more sensitive and more affected by
all kinds of sensory and emotional input. As a highly
(01:06):
sensitive person, I've always liked quirky people. I've just been
drawn to the odd balls. And that was true before
we had a name for it, and as I've gotten older,
more and more and more of my oldest friends have
either self diagnosed or received diagnosis as some kind of neurodivergent.
(01:29):
That means ADHD OCD, autism, spectrum sensory processing disorder, and
I would include trauma in that because trauma changes the brain.
I define neurodivergence as a difference in patterns of attention,
(01:50):
brain organization, sensory input, sensory processing. And basically your brain
just works differently. It's wired a little bit differently, and
I find that fascinating.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Because sometimes you know, for me in an interview, it
takes a little bit more to focus. Does that mean
there's something neuro there that like that.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Is one hundred percent neurodivergent. I think, as we discussed
during our pre interview, you think you have ADHD yes, yes,
given that you told me that you always have like
five devices.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
On it once true, I do. I actually do. And
that stems from from from the seventy seven days in
the NICKEU where there were blinking lights and flashing lights
and noises and pumped up to everything on. I think
that's what my parents attributed to. Anyway, so I feel that.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Yeah, so some of it is is inborn, some of
it's genetic, and some of it is how you are,
things have happened to you in your life. So I
don't consider myself designing just for neurodivergent people. I consider
myself designing for everyone, including neurodivergent people. And I believe
(03:06):
that if we take neurodivergence and highly sensitive as a baseline,
we're making the environment better for everyone, because even those
neurotypical people get easily get distracted, get overwhelmed, and have
difficulty focusing in a chaotic environment.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
All right, so multitasking, yeah, is that neurodivergence too like
a skill set for that?
Speaker 2 (03:31):
There is no such thing as multitasking. You are switching
your attention very rapidly. People with ADHD have a difference
in brain chemicals that your short term memory does not
hold as many things in your immediate attention, so you
will be more easily distractable. So you will be balancing
(03:52):
around from things in your environment because they're able to
get your attention because you haven't narrowed your attention in
with the exception. Okay, do you do you want me
to go into hyper focus again. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Well, and I tell you why it's that because as
we're talking, I'm on my computer at work to see
what work I gotta do. As like, there's just a
bunch of things that I feel like I can do
in one task. And lack of focus has been something
since I was in kindergarten. Every teacher and everybody ever noticed,
like just the fact I've never focused on one thing.
(04:27):
It can be a detriment, but sometimes it's a strength.
I guess I don't know it is.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
It's a strength, it's it's depending on how you manage it.
It can be a superpower and it also can be
an obstacle. The first step is understanding your own brain
and then setting up systems to support your brain to
do what you want it to do.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
It's amazing because you've sort of redefined it for me.
I always thought ned neurodivergent was autistic autism only, but
you're sort of expanding that horizon.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
No, I'm expanding it. Yes, ADHD and autism often happen.
They use. The term they use is comorbid. They often
come together. A lot of neurodivergent people I know first
get a diagnosis of ADHD, and then they realize there's
something else going on. It's perfectly possible to have ADHD
(05:21):
and not have autism, but they really do often show
up together.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Now, social cues I feel like I'm good at. So
that's where I feel like there's a distinction, make because
I know people with autism do not take the cues
as well as maybe someone was strictly ADHD. Is that right?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Yes, that is true. That that's one of the dividing lines.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Okay, So in your practical sanctuary, right, what can people
find like why did you start this whole business up?
And also I feel like you're doing it from an
entrepreneurial perspective as well as an adaptive perspective.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Right, absolutely, yes, yes, it's found me. It was a
really obvious whole in design which no one was filling.
And for me, I was like, this is so important.
I know so many people who can't function. I have
(06:17):
so many friends that I can't go sit in a
cafe with and have a conversation because they can't track
a conversation a lot of chaotic, dark noise around it
just their brain can't process the conversation with a lot
of background noise because they can't filter it out. That's
a neurodivergent thing. Filtering sound auditory processing is frequently an
(06:39):
issue lights. So many people with ADHD or neurodivergence, like
bright lights pointing at their faces is just really uncomfortable.
Fluorescent lights can't even process that at all. So for
me is this is glaring, glaring problem with the way
things are put together, and was addressing it. I'd be
(07:01):
going around pointing it out and people are just kind
of like the like, we can't do anything about That's
just what the contractor put in.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Now, I want to ask about whether people are conscious
of them darting their eyes a certain way, or if
they're not and they just do it naturally, because for me,
I feel really bad if I'm like looking at a
group of people, I'll try to focus on a conversation.
I know I'm doing it, and I still do it anyway.
Like do people, though in our diversence, not think of
it that way? They're not.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
It really depends on the person. We are born in
the nervous system. We're born in. We live in it.
That's our reality. We're not analyzing it. We're not we
start out, we're not comparing it to other people. Our
experience is what we know, and we kind of assume
that everyone else is having the same experience. So that's
(07:49):
the first thing I do with people is walk you
through a process where you start to do some fun
exercises and figure out your own nervous system, figure out
where you're sensitive, where you're struggling, where you may be
(08:10):
seeking more sensory seeking. We did talk about that too,
and start to like place yourself, like where is my
nervous system different from other people's, Perhaps what things in
my environment are causing me discomfort draining my energy That
I haven't really thought about it because I just accept
(08:32):
it for the way it is. Being aware of things
is the first step to being able to adapt. If
you don't know that there's an issue, you're just gonna
just keep kind of floundering.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
On through Saturday, I was trying to rerest up from
my five kre and Yankey Sat, which was just a
fun event. Sounds fun, but in my room, my childhood room.
I went back home to Queens and like, there's a
bunch of books around me, and I'm like, why am
I scrolling on my phone when I should really be reading?
But I never did read a book, Like I don't
know what there is there, but it's like in my brain,
(09:06):
I'm like, I shouldn't be scrolling, but because there's a
bunch of books around me, Well, how do we turn
out and start reading.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
You're at the mercy of your environment if you have
an intention and you're shooting yourself. First of all, I
want to point that out, don't shoot all over yourself.
If you have an intention, if you have a goal,
there's something you really want and you start to notice it,
I'm just getting distracted with all of this stuff. That's
your first step becoming aware of the issue. And then
(09:35):
the next step is to set up your environment and
get some help. Like everyone I know with ADHD needs help,
because that executive function piece is really really tough for people.
Get some help, help discover those goals and then get
the help setting up your environment that's going to enable
(09:56):
you to buy default do the thing that's going to
get you to that goal. That's one of the things I.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Help people do, almost like functioning the room right and
trying to get.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
It yes, but more so way and make it way
more personal.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
All right, So there's an intensity to organization for people
with neurodivergence, right, Like, it has to be organized and
then you have that whole there's a there's a term
for it. I can't think of it right now, but
where it has to be all organized and in the
right place.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Well, if that's what you need, yes, and organized means
different things to different people. So I have to figure out, like,
what what's going to work for this particular person. No,
two neurodivergent people are alike. Their brains don't work the
same way, either as neurotypical people or as other neurodivergent people.
(10:53):
So I first just take my clients through this process
of understanding how their brain works and then figuring out
what structures and systems are going to support their particular brain.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
And OCD is a term I was thinking of, do
you help people with.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Yes, I do.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Well that that's good to know as well. And I mean,
sometimes though all of these different factors and the way
our brain thinks, I don't want to say it can
be a detriment, but it can hold us back a
little bit. How do we make sure it doesn't hold
this back and say, Okay, let's not freak out that
this thing's not in order. Let's just let it be right.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
I will coach you through that too. A lot of
the exhaustion that happens when your surroundings are draining you
is that your brain is editing out the things it
doesn't want to deal with, and that takes energy, that
takes bandwidth.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
So that's basically selective listening if you think about.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
It, right, Yeah, it's it's selective attention of all kinds,
whether it's listening or looking or thinking about or tripping
over your your brain is focusing on a few things
and using energy to just take the rest out of
your your view. And what I can do is just
(12:16):
against very simple techniques, help you frame your surroundings so
that you can bring that to your attention. Bring the
things that you're editing out to your attention, clear them,
get rid of them, and then you're in an environment
that is naturally allowing you to use all of your
bandwidth for what you want to use it for, rather
(12:38):
than using a lot of it to selectively.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
No, you know, it's interesting that I found that as
I've gotten used to just scrolling and all that and
not paying attention, like, I've just gotten to the point
where I want to hang out with people who keep
my attention in a conversation. Like, if you can't do that,
then I don't know if it's worth spending all my
time because to right to have someone's attention or to
(13:04):
capture my attention, it does take a lot. I realized it.
Maybe that's you go this say, but just what it is.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Well, that's your filter. Yeah, I mean we all want
friends that that bring out the best in us. And
if you're with a bunch of normies who bore you,
that's your clue. Okay, maybe I'm not with the right
set of people, and that's okay, it's not it's no, no,
no shade on them.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Like my colleagues are great, Like I could just pay
and just want they're talking about all day, Like I
love that.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Well, there you go, so you have the great the
best colleagues. Who are your colleagues.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
We're all in radio, so we're all kind of radio
guys that just just know the board. Socially, we're just
we click, you know what I mean. It's it's all
the way of clicking.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Well, I imagine being in radio, You're you're paying attention to
so many different things, like you're seeking out the interesting things. Yeah,
and that can be your superpower, like really finding the
new and interesting things that your brain is always looking for.
More so it's a perfect career for you.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
And my apps always tell me what news would cover
on my pockyat So there's that too, all right. Yeah,
I often know that nerd divergence are excluded from a
lot of things, either intentionally or unintentionally. So did that
inclusion aspect inspire you to start practical.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Really very much?
Speaker 1 (14:20):
So?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Yes? Yes, I mean inclusion is a real core value
of mine. It has been, you know, since I can remember,
Like I was always seeking out the person that was
having a rough time and just befriending them and appreciating
them and like wanting to bring them in. And there
is inclusion is touchy because just tolerating people is not
(14:45):
good enough. No one wants to be tolerated. We want
to be appreciated and seen for who we are. And
I don't want to change people to make them fit in.
I want to expand the circle. And that takes a
little work on the part of everyone. It's not easy,
(15:05):
but it's very rewarding. And so part of what I
do is like create that bridge, is I work with
everyone on like their goals, who they are, but I'm
reflecting back what I see. I am sensitive and introverted,
so I will be paying very close attention to you
(15:27):
and pulling out your superpowers and your strengths and asking
you and digging deeper and deeper until I can really
see who you are, what your you know, what your
strengths are, and start to clear out the stuff that
isn't you and ample poty those things that are you
(15:47):
you yes, yes, your superpowers And like a lot of
times when people have been excluded and they've been you know,
hurt and crushed, it's like their light is I help
give them a spiritual glow up. Like really, I'm not
putting anything there that's not there, but I'm I'm amplifying
(16:10):
what is there and creating a sort of an environment
that like supports that and reflects that back to them.
So they're feeling better in their bodies, they're feeling better
in their minds, they're more clear on what their value is.
Like I am very.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Their souls on fire. Like I've been doing things the
last couple of weeks where I'm just like, all right,
I have stuff going on, but I'm gonna put that
aside for a minute and just do what I want
to do, and that feeling of just being able to
do it, like going up to Boston College who watched
the Irish playday football, Ye, going to do a five
k and stay. I mean, these are things that are
firing me up, and to actually take that time for
(16:47):
myself is something I'm not used to and be I'm
really enjoying at the same time.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Yeah, now I have a question about that five k.
So how do you run? Do you have a prosthetic?
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Do you usually know Iran? And so it was very
interesting to rain. I rollabate, I walked it and ran
it all three miles Oka and they had us go
up two flights of stairs twice. So we went stairs
of Yankee State and we pretty much went the perimeter
of the ballpark from left field to right field and
then on the lower level and then we went on
(17:19):
the warning track of Yankee State. It was okay, So
we did all that, and just being able to do
that experience and zoning everything else out was just very special. Yeah,
and I felt like I needed that. So yeah, there's that.
Now I want to ask you something about your sensitivity.
But also as a business owner. You have to run
your business, So how do you manage the both of them?
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Like, how do you developed when you need to get
tough as Mike question?
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Right, No, I've I've developed the systems that I need
to regulate my own nervous system. And every time I
scale up, there's there's a process. Like I published a
book in September. It took me three years to finish it.
I had given myself two years. It took me an
extra year, and I had a migraine for six weeks
before that book launched. It was stressing me out so badly,
(18:09):
like getting it right, you know, feeling vulnerable about putting
it out there, organizing all them.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
So I believe you waited until it was launch for
us to actually have the conversation.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
I did. Yeah, I was way over, you know, and
I was going outside my comfort zone. And I was
aware that I was going outside my comfort zone, and
I was I had the systems in place. I'm like, Okay,
got a migraine, Now this is what's going on. You know.
I'll take my nap, I'll do my breathing exercises, I
will get it done. But I had to understand it
(18:43):
that this is my body. This is I'm pushing myself
to my limit. I'm choosing to do so for a
good reason. And I will not push myself constantly with
no break. And if it takes me longer, it takes
me longer. I have come to terms with that. And
I see so many high achievers having pushed themselves past
(19:06):
their limit for way too long, and then they have
a major health crisis that slows them down. I have
seen that so much.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
That was me last year. Gallstone's got me hospitalized for
a month and I was I was sidelined for another month.
I mean, if you don't take care of that part
of you, you're gonna go downhill pretty so yeah, I
applaud you for taking those breaks. But now they mentioned
the book plug it, plug it for my audience thinks okay.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
It's called the Eccentric Genius Habitat Intervention Interior Design for
Highly Sensitive People. You can find it on my website,
Practical Sanctuary dot com. You can also get it wherever
books are sold. It's both ebook and print, and it
is a manifesto and a how to guide. The manifesto is, first,
(19:57):
we need this. This is how your nervous system works.
This is how society is running a tractor over your
nervous system. This is how and why we need to
be thinking about this and doing it differently. And then
I take you through the steps of how to do
it for yourself, how to do it for your family,
(20:20):
and then how to expand into your community, because we
can't all we can't just be doing this all alone.
We need to be connecting with other people.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
When I think of eccentric, Jesus that I think of
these kids that are like going the Harvard at fourteen
and then you have new chess at a very young age.
Is there neurodivergence there that gets these kids?
Speaker 2 (20:38):
There could very well be, yes, But I believe.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
I knew a kid that played violin to the tea
Jeremy Cushman, back in the day. I wonder if ye
had a little because when you think about eccentric, that's
eccentric to me.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Oh yes, absolutely, yeah. Eccentric means like one sided. It's
like you've got this huge strength and then there's this
everything else is kind of like not as fully realized.
I believe that everyone has genius in some way, some
way or another. So this is not an exclusive thing.
(21:12):
But a lot of people don't perceive their own genius.
They don't feel it.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
And they're afraid to embrace it too.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Like I agree.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
It took a while for me to just branch out
on my own because I felt like I was in
the shadows of all the radio hosts I work with,
and like I can't really branch out on my own.
Then pandemic it and I realize, Okay, now's the time
to launch time here we are one leg about so
to under I'm not saying I'm a genius, but to
understand that there's something there takes a while to exactly
(21:43):
just show it to the world, you know, Yes, And
I think you're helping people show the world what they're
made of.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
That is my goal, That's that's my mission.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Yes, all right, I got a couple of million dollar
questions here, because the first thing is, obviously you do
run this business? Have you neurodivergent people to work with you?
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Right now? I am a solo outfit and I occasionally
hire contractors, Okay, I once I'm big enough, that is
a priority.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
And do you feel that people that hire like businesses
hire people with autism or nerdivergens or any kind of disability.
It often feels like a token, you know, it doesn't
feel really.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
And that's that's part of what I'm working against with this,
that that the choice of the title eccentric genius is
very intentional and a lot of the work I do
consulting with companies and advocating. Okay, I want to tell
you I recently spoke at a neurodiversity employment conference and
(22:51):
I found it a very frustrating experience because everything was
framed as we're helping these poor, sweet disabled people, and
we need to be charitable, and we need to be
nice people, we need to be good people. We need
to include these poor, sweet neurodivergent people. And there were
no freaking employers there looking to hire the amazing brains
(23:13):
that are neurodivergent. Right. I think this is a really
bad marketing problem. All the neurodivergent people I know are
brilliant in one way or another, and they are going
to be a massive asset in the right role at
the right place. I feel that excluding neurodivergent people is
(23:37):
a massive brain drain. We can't afford it as a culture.
Corporations can't afford to ignore this and I feel that
labeling this as a nonprofit as a charity is like
helping these disabled people is the wrong way to go.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Okayespecially when you look at someone who I believe is
neurodivergent Elon Musk basically rule the world.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
I mean, well, yes, and I have my issues with
Elon Musk too. He needs tempering. We've got to work together,
we've got to be understanding of differences, and we've got
to be working integreatively rather than eccentrically. Sure, right, it
shouldn't be all or nothing. We don't need to like
(24:21):
Silo and segregate the Nerdi virgin people and then have
the normies over here. We need to be each taking
some steps to understand one another and to work together
and to find the right places for people.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
All right, so someone comes in to your practical sanctuary,
Let's be honest. Nerdi Virgins always aren't always verbal. So
how do you get them to start talking and start
telling their story?
Speaker 2 (24:46):
A lot of the nonverbal clients I have, it's their
families that come to me, and a lot of what
I do I into I work with their families. I
work with their care providers, particularly their occupational therapists. I've
(25:07):
had a nonverbal client that I spent an hour on
Zoom with her occupational therapist and got, you know, all
the information about how this person likes to live and
what they need, and then I worked out a plan
based on that, because again it's integrative. I am not
creating spaces where we can park the neurodivergent people. I'm
(25:31):
not creating just sensory rooms where they can just all
kind of be in their sensory thing. I am helping
them live with the people around them. And a lot
of what I do. If I have like a family
where the child is on the spectrum and their sensory
(25:52):
seeking and they're just creating a lot of chaos, parent
is drained, I will make some changes that help the
parent get their needs met with whether or not their
child changes. A lot of times the parents kind of
be like, fix my kids so that I can get
a break. I'm like, let's get you a break. Let's
(26:14):
get you a break now, and then you have more
bandwidth for dealing with your child.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
And if parents offloading the kids just they're looking for help.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
They're just looking for help and they need it. With
caregivers do not have enough support in this culture. I
can't fix that by myself, but I can help them
see it in a larger context and get at least
one or two of their needs met.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
I'm gonna ask you this because I saw a situation
where there was clearly an autistic, like twelve year old
and some of these kids are big and they don't
know how to handle our emotions, so they start punching back,
they start getting the violent Oh yeah, oh yeah. I
saw an aide subdue the kid in the most you know,
the way he knew he could. Someone across the subway
(27:01):
PLoP from was like, what are you doing? You're hurting them.
I'm all like, no, he knows exactly what he's doing. Yeah,
But I give a credit to a lot of those aides.
I have to deal with that on a daily basis.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
They do a lot of violence. They're not getting well
paid for it either.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
I'm setting up that question to ask you, if you
have anybody with violent tendencies that come in and you
kind of not straighten them out but make them h
channel it more if you will.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
That is above my pay grade.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
People who come to me are usually very smart, very articulate,
they're coming from them for themselves to help themselves manage,
or they're coming for their children if there's there's an
adult person with violent tendencies. My mission is definitely to
(27:49):
be working on a larger scale helping to design environments
where people who can't really live on their own can
function at their best. And I have worked with nonprofits
that have like adult living for clients like that, And
I'll make where I'll make recommendations about reducing the amount
(28:12):
of like really unpleasant sensory input and creating more sensory
input that's gonna be regulating, like bring more nature in,
bring you know, get a get a gym in the
basement with some punching bags for God's sake. I mean,
I've seen spaces like so underused. So but really it's
(28:34):
about working with the larger environment, not trying to fix
an individual.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
All right. I have to ask you this because the
way you're talking, it sounds like either your background of
social work or psychology. Is that right?
Speaker 2 (28:46):
It is not, but it is one of my interests.
I'm I'm kind of a self taught psychology nerd and
self taught neuroscience nerd. I've never I considered getting a
degree in counseling or social work, but my background is
actually massage therapy. Oh wow, I work directly with people's
bodies and I'm really tuning into their nervous system when
(29:10):
I'm working, and it's just so clear how the environment
is affecting people's nervous system. So yeah, that's that was
my way in. But it could just as easily have
been psychology or social work.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
I could tell because you have that presence of mind
to just sort of get to the core of someone's situation,
you know what.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Yeah, and look at the bigger the bigger cycle.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Now the other thing. You know. I don't want to
get political here, but there is a push here to
get social workers involved in sort of cases where neurodivergence.
Maybe cops are called in to deal with neurodivergence. Yeah.
Do you think there's a way we can balance law
enforcement and social work? I mean, could it be done?
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Uh? Oh, yes, I think that cops are grossly They're
tasked with solving all the problems in society that take
a lot of effort and energy and money that we
don't want to bother with. The cops are being asked
to handle things that they are not equipped to handle
either financially, with resource wise with training. I definitely think
(30:13):
that there could be more social more social worker intervention
in situations where cops are generally called. And we've had
some tragedies in Philadelphia. We've had neurodivergent people shot to
death when they're having a mental health crisis, when what
they needed was a social worker who was maybe trained
(30:34):
in martial arts, but also trained in conflict de escalation.
I feel that the either the cops need like a
social work conflict de escalation team, or there needs to
be like a whole nother branch of where we're really
funneling resources into that and less resources into just militarized
(31:00):
in the cops.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
This is why I'm gonna have you on because obviously
it's a hot topic here in New York right now
with the mayor elect wanting to replace cops with social workers.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
I don't think they should be replaced. I think they
should be they should be collaborating.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
See that's why I think too, I don't think you've
in this band a whole department.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
You've got to work Oh no, no, no, you've got
to work together. Yes, I mean, and I really feel
for cops because they're they're being asked to deal with
mental health, They're being asked to deal with poverty, they're
being asked to deal with violence, with with trash. My god,
like I lived in New York for years, the trash
pickup is couldn't be better.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
And then I have to ask you this then, because
I've seen a lot of homeless outreach and some of
them are they're divergent. Let's be honest, they are something.
They're homeless. Yeah, and a lot of people just are
not willing to listen to these people that are in uniform.
But they say, no, we don't want the help. Yeah,
let's say these organizations come to you, how can you
fix these problems? Maybe not on the whole, but at
(32:00):
least maybe case by case where Okay, you want someone
to come with you and your homeless outreach, what would
you tell these teams that are trying.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Oh wow, again, that is above my pay grade. What
I see is that how distressed people are, how much
they act out, has a whole lot to do with
their physical environment. I was in DC recently. I live
(32:31):
in Philadelphia. I spent a week in DC. The demographic
in the areas that I was in d C was
very similar to the demographics in Philadelphia. A lot of immigrants,
a lot of working class, melting pot, like all kinds
of different people. Philadelphia has a rage problem, Like you
(32:54):
really need to be careful what you say, who you
say it to, because as there could be just an out,
there could be like a fight just in a half
a second.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
I know. Well, unfortunately see that sporting events in Philly
that does happen.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Oh yeah, I'm sure you know, yes, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
I mean there are sometimes where these people are like
are you kidding me? But it's human nature, I guess
if you think about.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
It, Okay, it's it's context. Okay, there is research about this.
When there is more green space, less annoying noise, better
public transit, the streets are cleaner DC. The streets are clean,
the public transit is clean, and.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
You don't some time. The metro in DC is so
much better. I'm like, oh my god, it is so
much better.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
You get on the train in Philly, it stinks. It's loud.
I got on the train this weekend. There was a
broken recording that just was repeating the same words over
and over in my ear. The whole trip. I was
ready to punch someone. By the time I got off
that train DC I got on the bus, people were saying, hey,
they were so sweet, they were like giving me advice.
(34:00):
It was just the environment was conducive to civility. You
put people in an uncaring, chaotic, gritty, dirty environment, they're
gonna be angry, They're gonna have trouble emotionally regulating.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Do New Yorkers give Philly fans a bad rap or
they're just some really bad a Pilly's.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Worse than New York. I've lived in both places. New
Yorkers are nicer. New york Is they take better care
of their parks. They plow the streets in the winter.
Philly doesn't plow. Yeah. Yeah, And you can really measure
that I've I've been in Europe, I've been in Mexico.
(34:41):
There is a one to one correspondence between how how pretty,
how clean, how how pleasant your surroundings are, and how
people behave. People behave differently in different environments. They've done
studies in prisons. People put in a prison like environment
start acting like bullies. You take people out of the prison,
(35:06):
put them in an environment with you know, birds and trees,
and good smells and that's clean and they're going to
be able to regulate better.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
This is such a great conversation, but I want to
highlight the word sanctuary because yeah, I do feel like
there's not enough awareness awareness with people when they're divergence
that there is a sanctuary for them. Like, yeah, And
what I've seen and observed is for nerve divergence always
(35:39):
seems chaotic, that we don't think about the word sanctuary, right,
So yeah, how do you hit that point home? Yes,
my work is a sanctuary for you.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
Well, I help show people how to create their own
personal sanctuary that has what they meet, which may not
be what someone else needs. Everyone needs something different. I
will just go through and pick out the clues in
the environment and I'll ask, I'm like, okay, I see
this object here, what meaning does it have? What do
you like about it? What is the story? How do
(36:11):
you feel about this color? How do you feel? How
do you feel? How do you feel? And how do
you feel in your body? Not just in your heart,
not in your mind, but all of that. Once we've
drilled down and I know what that person needs to
feel good, we create a tiny little place where it's
(36:31):
optimized where they have what they need. It could look
like anything. It could be a balcony, it could be
the corner of a basement. It could be the corner
of a bedroom. It could be the landing, it could
be anywhere.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
I want to share a lot of secrets, but I'll
tell you my mom and I declutter my whole room
because I had, yeah, act likes I had tryning, upon trying,
upon trying, we sort of took down everything. I got
a gram for the podcast right after we fixed everything.
We got things fixed up, cleaned up. I don't know
if I was barding everything, it just was all in
different places. So we decluded that, and then all of
(37:07):
a sudden, I got a new gig in radio. So
it is true when you change your spaces.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Things change everything. Yes, uh huh, yeah. It is a
huge effect, huge ripple effect.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
And I think it just makes you happier too.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
It does, and that is that what we all want.
We just want to be a little happier.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Well, I'm so glad we had this first coming. I
want to have so many conversations with you. But if
people want to get involved, and what's your age range?
I forgot to ask you what's your age range of kids?
It doesn't go from kid to adult. What's your age.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Range anyone who's interested. I mean, if it's kids, it's
generally their families that bring me in. I've worked with
all ages, and I also can work anywhere in the
world as long as you have a good computer connection.
A lot of my clients I work with them over Zoom,
I work with them over WhatsApp. I have clients in
other countries zoom, email, text, and I can support you
(38:01):
from anywhere I know.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
And I don't always talk about climate change, but this
has me asking about the climate and neurodivergence. Is their correlation?
Is there something that makes the brain go crazy if
our climate is not up to part.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
We're creatures, we emerge from this planet, and when the
planet's climate changes, it's going to create intense stress in
all of us one way or the other.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
I think, yeah, I know divergent people who Yeah, the
systems are all at an all time high and the
news doesn't help it. So when we talk about your sanctuary,
I think getting rid of all the news and the
bad news specifically is important, right it.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
It definitely is. If your stress level is is in
the stratospy and.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
We have people that are afraid to go out of
our house right now, how do we fix it?
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Yeah, well, one of the things I have people do
is optimize their space and get some emotional regulating practice
that your space is cueuing you and supporting you to
do so that you can expand your strength your vessel
so that you can handle more. Because like I have
(39:16):
gone on news fasts, but then when I'm in a
good place, I need to open up and take in
that news because if we're all ignoring it, it's just
going to get worse and worse. We need to be
able to manage ourselves regulate so that we can connect
with other people, we can reach out, we can start
making some positive changes.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
I know personally, I was a talkative kid and I've
still talk into a podcast. But when you're talkative kids
sometimes not really accepted. So do you find that people
have that trouble like, oh my god, I was sort
of silent?
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Oh yeah, And rejection sensitive dysphoria is huge for people
with ADHD and potentially auto really like people aren't going
to just automatically accept you words at all, And that's
not the goal. The goal is you accept yourself. You
(40:14):
understand yourself, and then you start getting the tools to
regulate yourself and learn to read the room, learn to
notice when you've been talking for forty five minutes without
taking a break. Have some kind of system for that.
And that's not something that just neutive virgent people do.
Everyone needs to learn to do that. We all need
(40:34):
to be more self aware as well as we're sex
self accepting. It's not like being self aware doesn't mean
you're just down on yourself. Oh my god, I talk
too much. I'm such a jerk. No, just be aware
and learn how to manage it. We all have to
do that, and we can expand our bands like.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Yeah, harness energy, but then really it at the same time.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
Yes, yes, exactly got it.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Well, this has been so enlightening and I feel inspired
to just keep talking on my own stuff. So thank
you for that.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
That's wonderful, and I love to.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Stay in touch and keep working with you on different things.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
Yes, of course, just reach out anytime. I'm always here.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
And one more thing, because you're on pod match and
this is powered by pod match, how's that connection been
for you.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
It's been a game changer, It really has, Like I'm
an introvert. I don't like I don't go to you know,
three networking events a week. I'm not constantly out there schmoozing.
I like deep conversations with interesting people. And pod Match
has connected me with that. So I'm very grateful.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
And we have the motto having helping people have one
leg up on life. You're doing that, but I think
now you can inspire others to especially those who have
a disability or a divergence, different ability whatever, to say, yes,
you can start your own business. Have you found you're
a divergent employer? Like, are you finding people are starting
their business that have ever virgins?
Speaker 2 (42:00):
Oh? Half of my fellow particularly women business owners adhd
you know, like they just the ordinary corporate environment just
doesn't work for them, Like they felt like they had
no other choice. And I I'm kind of in that
in that realm myself, I didn't really want to be
self employed. It's just that most corporate jobs had one
(42:22):
or two or five.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
On every threat I have on this specific topic about
entrepreneurship is about people that left corporate America to do
their to do their business. It's it's a risk, it's
not easy. But when they get off the ground and running.
Look how rewarding it can be.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
Sometimes it's the only option.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
Well, Stephanie, I can talk all day. I love this
chat and I want to have you back on soon,
especially as the book keeps growing, and that.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
Would be great. Yeah, just just let me know you've
got my contact ping me and we'll keep this going.
And if you if you read my book and you're
inspired by something, you know, just just text me and
we'll you know, we'll we'll do a little talk about it.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
And again, where can we find the one more time?
And you have a website, don't you?
Speaker 2 (43:01):
I do, yes, practical sanctuary dot com. Everything is there, email,
free e course consultations, blog posts, everything.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Stephanie ly Jackson, thanks for the time, and you're chat
today on the one loo up network
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