November 19, 2024 • 28 mins
Hey Heart Friends. I sit down with previous guest, Jeff Holden, to explore the profound changes heart surgery brings into one's life. Jeff recaps his own battle against myocardial bridging, recounting the gratitude he feels every day. From open-heart surgery to life-altering dreams, Jeff unpacks the layers of his experiences, revealing how overcoming a near-fatal condition has fueled his passion for advocacy and storytelling. Curious about the life-changing dream Jeff had after surgery? Tune in to understand why this dream has become the cornerstone of his new mission and find out how he’s making a difference in the field of cardiology. Plus, discover the significance of a simple bracelet—a daily reminder to appreciate life’s small blessings.
Listen to Jeff's original episode here. You can find his podcast, My Imperfect Heart, anywhere you get your podcasts.
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**I am not a doctor and this is not medical advice. Be sure to check in with your care team about all the next right steps for you and your heart.**
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Email: Boots@theheartchamberpodcast.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Getting to spend another day on the planet, to have my feet hit the ground
when I roll out of bed, to take that breath in the morning and open
my eyes. And I will say, over time, it's still
easy to forget the reality of what's
been done for us, any of us that have had the surgery,
that we get to spend this extra time, hopefully doing
(00:21):
something engaging with a greater degree of
appreciation, with a more grateful
nature. Hello. Boots Knighton here.
Welcome back to another episode of Open Heart
Surgery with Boots. Today is a
very special episode for me. I
(00:43):
am excited to bring you Jeff Holden
for our third installment of Hope for the Holidays.
But let me tell you a little bit about Jeff. So
Jeff and I have met through a Facebook
group for myocardial bridging patients,
and Jeff was the very first
(01:05):
interview I did for this podcast.
Bless this man. Up, down, left, and right for
putting up with me in my first ever
interview. And I'm like, my face is hurting because I'm
smiling so big. Because, first of all, Jeff, you said
yes to this, like, person who had never podcasted a day
(01:27):
in Her Light. You own your own studio, and we've
become friends. Like, I'm always so excited
just to, like, talk to you. You were so generous with
your time then, and you're generous with your time now.
And the other thing I absolutely love about you is how you're just like, I
am a Chicago native. I have never met anyone from
(01:50):
Chicago who was so proud to be from Chicago,
and I have got to go visit that city just because you are so proud
of it. So, of course, you live in California now,
and you were absolutely thriving and kicking butt
at making myocardial bridging
more well known, more talked about in the field
(02:13):
of cardiology. There's so much for us to unpack with
your very positive update for Hope for the Holidays. But
mostly, thank you for being my fellow heart buddy. Well, first of all,
Boots, the. The first episode was a blast to do because it's fun to see
somebody else get into podcasting and have a passion for it and have a
passion for what the mission of the podcast is as
(02:34):
well. So congratulations on your program and all
that you're doing for people with open heart surgery, because I think they really do
appreciate it. There's so much misinformation out there and disinformation
and confusion when we get into, you know, any of these things concerning our
hearts. So congratulations there. And, yes, it is a pleasure to
say you are a friend. We've met at some of the Other podcast
(02:56):
meetups. And it's so wonderful to be able
to actually see and touch and get in the environment
of somebody when you only have a virtual experience
for the introduction. So congratulations on all of that.
Thank you. Thank you. Let me give you a high level view of
how we connected. So obviously we're both
(03:18):
myocardial bridge patients. We've both had our surgery. We
met on the Facebook group, and in my case, a little bit different. I'm a
little bit after you. I'm about two and a half years, a little more than
two and a half years out from my surgery. Similar situation. We go through the
misdiagnosis, the challenges of getting diagnosed. I'm a little bit
older. My whole situation happened a little bit faster. I had that
(03:40):
heart attack that caused all these uncertainties of what was going on
and how it could have happened when I was in great shape at the time.
And it eventually led me to Stanford, where I actually had the privilege
of meeting Dr. Trimmel. I didn't meet Dr. Schnicker at first. I
met her after my surgery because I came in the back door through the emergency
room and met with Dr. Boyd. Boyd performed my surgery
(04:03):
a little bit different than most in that I also had a bypass, a
Lima bypass. So I've got a myocardial bridge on
roofing as well as the Lima bypass. And as a
result of that, there was an epiphany for me in the
process of the surgery, post surgery recovery,
where I had quite the dream. And I
(04:25):
will say the dream was a life changing dream
because even to this day, it's still as vivid as it was the
day that I had it, the day that I woke up after experiencing it and
sharing it with my wife and just a tearful reunion when she came in the
room. But it made me realize that a lot of different things
that maybe I'd just been thinking about and they all came out and manifested themselves
(04:47):
through this dream after the surgery. Maybe it was the drugs, maybe it was lack
of sleep, I don't know. But whatever it is, I am so grateful for
it. And you've heard me say many times on our program that
these things don't happen to us, they happen for us. And as long as
we keep the perspective of the fact that these
things, almost everything happens for us. So, you know, we
(05:09):
look at it and if we try to find the reasons and the positivity out
of it, how we're going to cope, what we're going to do, what the adjustments
are as a result of the situation, Whatever that
situation be, in this case, for us, it was the myocardial bridge. For others, it's
open heart surgery, it's bypass, it's all sorts of heart
conditions that can be remedied through surgery.
(05:31):
That there's a gratefulness that comes out of it.
And certainly in my case, you know, that gratitude at 65
years old, having lived a life and a career and a variety
of experiences really took a turn
to where there was an absolute necessity to do a better job of giving
back and making sure that the people who have this condition
(05:54):
have a better understanding of it. And as I was exiting the hospital on
my release, my discharge day, Dr. Boyd came in. It
was a Saturday. And I remember looking at him and saying, hey, I need you
to do me a favor. I do podcasts for a living. I tell stories. I
help people tell stories. I'm a communicator. I connect people.
If this didn't happen this way
(06:15):
to me, somebody who does podcasts and communicates and shares
information, what else am I meant to do? I mean,
that's about as clear an indication, at least in my mind, that this
program is a necessity in the fabric of my life and my profession,
what I'm going to do going forward. And I said, I need, Dr. Boyd, I
need for you to be one of my first guests because
(06:37):
you performed the surgery that so many people are uncertain about.
They. They call it controversial, yet so many of us are
benefited as a result of the surgery. And he said, absolutely. So
as I was walking out of that room, I knew right away, this is going
to be, you know, one of the things that we do. And again, as a
result of the dream, which is a result of the surgery, which is a result
of the condition, we do an incredible amount of
(07:01):
programming for nonprofit organizations. And
the nonprofit podcast network is another one of our
vertical productions that we do from the studio. All born out
of that dream. And that dream was, it was an
epiphany to say, you need to do some things differently, and you need to really
get your arms around what you do. And, you know, to say, I'm a
(07:22):
grateful patient is really an under way, an
underestimate of just the experience of
getting to spend another day on the planet. To have, you know, my feet hit
the ground when I roll out of bed, to take that breath in the morning
and open my eyes, and I will say, you know, over time, it's
still easy to forget the reality of what's
(07:43):
been done for us. Any of us that have had the surgery
that, you know, we get to spend this extra time, hopefully doing
something engaging with a greater degree of
appreciation, with a more grateful
nature. And because we're looking at a month of
gratitude, November. I appreciate what you're doing and
(08:04):
the ability to say thank you and to
recognize the people who have made our lives better as a
result on any given day and to be able to share that with
somebody, you know, whether it's, you know, a hello or hi, how you
doing? With sincerity, you know, not just the, you know, the flippant,
everything's good. Because we know that gratitude
(08:25):
expressed with sincerity is a visceral reaction.
It changes the. It literally changes the synapsis in the
brain as a positive. And they do
establish a memory. So the more you're grateful, the more you
express the gratitude, the more likely you will continue to express it because the
brain says, hey, this is a good thing. Let's keep doing it. And we had
(08:47):
the good fortune of having a gratitude
psychologist on the program last year right around the holiday.
And we'll repurpose it again this year. Dr. Peggy
Delong. And who would think there'd be a gratitude
psychologist out there? But that is what she specializes in, right? I
want her job. Right. That's
(09:08):
cool. It really is. And she does a lot of public speaking,
and it's obviously all on the nature of gratitude. Ironically, she
had a heart condition scare. So she could relate
to some degree to what we go through with our
situation. Although she didn't need surgery, it was easily remedied.
But I recall and I wear to this day. I don't know if
(09:31):
you can see this. There's a black bracelet here and there's a little
silver bead on it. She sent it to me after the program. She does these
as her outlet therapy of sorts. She makes
bracelets. This is the gratitude bracelet. And the little silver bead
on there is a reminder to be grateful for something.
Every time you look at that bracelet. Every time I look at that bracelet and
(09:53):
I see that little piece of silver, it's like, hey, dope, don't. It's not that
bad a day. Everything's good. You're still here. Be grateful for something. What is
it? And it just reminds me to recognize,
you know, the people, the places, the passions that I get to perform
and things I get to do in my life that make
it wonderful, you know, every. Every single day.
(10:15):
So from, from that perspective, what a
wonderful thing to put a series together of people saying thank you
who have experienced, you know, a life threatening or a life challenging
situation to where they can step back. And I know people
say step back, smell the roses, do things differently. I certainly do.
You know, if I'm out doing my exercise, which in my case is
(10:37):
cycling, I would always blow by everything because I'm trying to just
pace a little bit better or perform a little bit better today. I'll
stop if I see something really cool. I'll take a picture of it, you know,
and post it on that particular ride or send it to somebody and say, hey,
check out what I saw on the trail today. Or, you know, this
experience. Whereas, God, that never would have happened
(10:58):
before. So many nuggets in there that I have question
marks about. And thank you for sharing all of that. My
biggest question that I continue to
ponder is I know I could not be
where I'm at now with my gratitude
and my love for life without my heart
(11:20):
surgery. Like I am just such an experiential
learner. I could not have learned the perspective I
have now through a book or a place of worship. Do
you think what you and I have been gifted is
attainable through teaching? I
mean, it just seems like we are
(11:43):
the lucky ones. Yeah, no,
I don't think you can teach it. I think you have to experience it.
We can profess it. I have a great deal of faith. I certainly
do believe in a higher power. And I thank God every night
and often during the day that I get to do what I get to do
as a result of what could have been really either debilitating
(12:06):
or death. I don't think it's something
we can share and express without the experience.
I think people can get close, they can understand
and comprehend, but the experience of it changes
that dynamic. It's not to say somebody else can't be grateful and express
gratitude by any means. Absolutely, yes you can.
(12:28):
But when there's that significant
threat of loss of significant
loss and possibly loss of life, life of loss of any ability to
do anything any longer, and loss to
the community you serve, loss to the people around you. And when you start to
really think that through, which I didn't prior to,
(12:51):
but post, I certainly do. And I'm more grateful
for them than ever that I'm still here to get to see them,
you know, whether it's, you know, our kids or our grandkids, you know, certainly
my spouse, the people I work with every
day is, is just that reminder when you do see them
that you've been given this gift, don't
(13:14):
squander it and make the most of it. Do what you can with
it. In spite of all the other stuff that you're going to deal with, in
spite of all the other crap that's going to come up, because that's reality of
just living. But to recognize nothing
is as important as the ability to
live a life fulfilled, you know, a grateful life,
(13:34):
and one that you're giving back to somebody. To say
that there was a benefit of that relationship, that
association, even if it's just that contact with somebody
in a casual sense. Yeah, yeah. I've
been saying lately, I feel like the world needs heart surgery.
You know, we. We had the benefit of a meetup
(13:58):
and there were about 12 of us. 12 of us, which
I can't. Maybe the biggest gathering of anybody with
myocardial bridges together in one space. Not all
surgically unroofed, but certainly the two that were in the room that
weren't, were still very appreciative of where they were in
their journey. And that's significant because they
(14:20):
understood they are either moving down the path to recovery
and surgery, or they've gotten to a point in their
process where what they're doing is working.
And hopefully for them, it will continue.
You know, we know typically it deteriorates over
time. Yeah. But again, depending on the severity.
(14:42):
But that, that appreciation. And this was mostly couples, so they were
with their significant others or spouses. And it was really wonderful
to see the gratitude both ways, you know, from the
spouse to the patient, the patient to the spouse, knowing
everybody saying that there's no way I could do this without my significant
other. And that in itself is an
(15:04):
expression of gratitude. And you are doing
incredible things with your studio. You had mentioned the
nonprofit network. But then tell us about Imperfect
Heart Podcast. Yeah, Imperfect Heart Podcast,
available wherever you seek. Your podcast out is a
program that was specifically designed for people with myocardial bridges.
(15:26):
And what we do is we try to alternate the episodes.
Patient, possibly on a journey, still there. They're not
on roof. They haven't had their surgery yet. Or patients
who have had their surgery, could be six months, could be a year out, could
be five years out. As one of the longest term people that we've
interviewed, and it's the expression of all that
(15:47):
activity. What did it take? What were their conditions? What were the symptoms they
were experiencing? How did they get to where they got. Did they have insurance issues?
So it covers a gamut of their experience. Because the thing that we
can't stress enough, and I'm sure you see it with everybody you speak with, there
are no two alike. There are no two symptomatic.
Experiences that are alike, similar, but not the same. And there are no
(16:09):
two unroofing procedures that are like everybody's bridge is different. It's shorter,
it's longer, it's deeper, it's obfuscated by something.
So the nature of those stories, each one is
unique to that individual. And each of the surgeons does the
surgery a little bit differently. So we don't quite yet
have, nor maybe we never will, a specific
(16:32):
protocol that exactly do it this way. And I hope we get to
a point where we know that there is an absolute best practice. But this is
still new, and these unroofing procedures are still
very fresh in the surgical
world, having been done maybe 10, 12 years. I think Dr.
Boyd probably still is the leader in terms of the numbers he's done. And it's
(16:54):
only about 250 over the course of 12 years. So that's wild.
Take your surgeon who's probably done 5, 6, 8, 10, maybe,
you know, the robotic guys who have done the most, they've done maybe 30,
40, 50. You know, we're not talking about thousands. No,
you know, it's an aggregation of. And so the purpose of the program is
(17:14):
really to give people that spirit of hope, to know you're not
alone, that there are a lot of us out there who
are experiencing the same thing, and to learn about proper
procedure and diagnostics and what to look for, what to
expect, what to get your head around in
terms of what you're experiencing. And also, our
(17:37):
objective is to find a doctor in each state that is
performing the surgery. Now, we have some states where we have multiples, others
where we have none, but we're working toward
that goal of one in each state so that whomever is in wherever they are
in the United States, we've got a place for you to go. We've got a
gentleman that just finished his surgery about three weeks ago. To the best of
(17:58):
our knowledge, the place he had to go. It was their first
unroofing procedure, and he used all the tools from
the podcast and the Facebook group to share with them. He's an
engineer, so he was very specific in terms of what needs to be done. And
they said, we think we can do this. They obviously do surgeries, and they do
bypass surgeries, and they do aortic surgeries. And our surgery isn't the
(18:20):
most complex. It's just novel, and
so far, so good. Incredible. Look at all the good work you're
doing. We have a surgeon in Sedona. We've got some really
Cool episodes coming up from, you know, people that have traveled abroad.
And we have a gentleman that he's from Perth, Australia,
and he had his surgery done in all places
(18:42):
Pakistan, because he had no money and he needed to go someplace.
And there was a doctor in Pakistan that said, we can do it. And
so he went there and got it done. And he's in great
shape right now. So amazing. I mean, I just have to
clap that. And this is the beauty of podcasting,
because we get to hear about all this and
(19:04):
our media isn't necessarily covering all that. And
this is the good news. This is. This is the good in the
world. This is the miracles in the world. And this is
the beauty of living in the year 2024,
going into 2025, when we can find each other
across oceans and help each other. You know, I have to
(19:26):
share. We just. One of the women who were at the
meetup has a daughter who's a nurse who is a
contributing editor to a digital
magazine called Next Avenue, that's a PBS
production, Public Broadcasting System production. And because of her
mom's condition, she wanted to do an article on it, and they said yes,
(19:48):
and it just got published. And they mentioned
the podcast in there because it's a great resource.
So I'm excited to say that people are starting to
recognize the value of the communication of
this often dismissed condition, you know, often
misdiagnosed. And there is a big clinical
(20:09):
trial being done, as you're aware, out of Yale. Dr.
Sameet Shah is performing that clinical trial with 500
cohorts, and he's got the majority now of
the major clinics, Stanford, Cleveland Clinic,
Mayo, UPMC in Pennsylvania,
Houston. And they're all involved on this in
(20:31):
attempting to set protocol for proper diagnosis
not only of myocardial bridges, but any of the conditions that present with
no apparent occlusion, no blockage.
And he's, he's getting there, you know, so that's a step in the right direction
if we can get to where people are saying, oh, yeah, this is a condition.
We need to address this. How do we properly diagnose?
(20:52):
Great. And they're using the Stanford protocol for testing, which is the
provocative test that is definitive. And then of course,
CT angiograms for anybody that has this condition is the noninvasive
test that is the gold standard without having to go into a
catheterization. So we're making progress. It's all too
slow. I firmly believe people are dying from the condition,
(21:14):
and it presents itself as just a coronary blockage. He Died, the
widowmaker was blocked. She died, the widowmaker was blocked. But I think if they
were to do autopsies on each of these people, that they would
find that probably what it is in the population. One in four of
them had a myocardial bridge. And okay, say I'm
wrong. Call it 10%. There's 700,000 people a year that die
(21:36):
from, you know, heart disease. That's 70,000 people.
And let's say I'm wrong there and it's, it's 1%. That's
7,000 people. So what can we do to
improve that proper diagnostic and make the
medical community more aware to look for this condition when somebody
presents with something that doesn't make sense? Yeah. I mean,
(21:57):
again, we're the lucky ones. Over and over. I mean,
I'm just awestruck at. Even though
the road has been really hard at times, incredibly
hard, I'm still awestruck at how
fortunate I feel on a daily basis. And I know you do too.
Yeah. And I'm one of the blessed few who post
(22:20):
surgery. Nothing. I've been fine. And that's what I wanted to
ask you about is like, how, how did, how are you thriving?
What is the secret sauce? I think back to
the earlier part of the conversation. Everybody's unique. You know, I went into it
in good shape, so that's a plus. But it's, it's
a chemistry issue, it's an environmental issue, it's a mental
(22:42):
issue. I think it's just all of these things combined, we just don't
know. And everybody's going to have a different journey through the process.
Some people are a hundred percent. We've probably got 50,
60% of the people that we've interviewed are 100% back. Everything's fine.
Some have some symptoms and, but, but nothing
anywhere near what they had. And others, a
(23:05):
very small percentage, have some other issues that
have presented themselves, but they would have been pre existing, just
unknown. So they're dealing with stuff now that they didn't realize that they had. And
they have to get through that process in the next part of their, their unique
medical journey to finish us off here. What is something
that you just wish you could yell from the mountaintop
(23:26):
to heart patients that will come after you because there will
be folks that come after you and I. Right. That's why we both host our
podcast. So what's that one burning piece of like,
advice that you just need everyone, every heart patient to
know? I'm going to expand that to the population at
large because there's this big
(23:47):
thing. It's called denial. And when we
experience something, and it's men and women,
I don't think it's impacted any greater on either side, because women will do it
to protect because they have other stuff to do, and they want to continue to,
you know, serve their family and do what they need to do, because in many
cases, they're relied upon for that. So they'll suffer this
(24:09):
chest pain and they'll recognize, oh, something's not right, it's angina,
it hurts, but it goes away. Or, you know, I'm short of breath,
but I just got to get this stuff done. Guys are, you know,
macho. Stuff can't be wrong. I'm not going to go to the doctor. All that
stuff is important. If you experience chest pain and shortness
of breath, there's something wrong. And I don't
(24:31):
recall your story in terms of, oh, yes, I do now. It just came to
me. We all do it. You were climbing mountaintops and
total exhaustion and going, no, I'll be fine. I'll just suck it up at the
top. When I. I don't know what's wrong with me, but it's fine. And your
husband's going, no, no, this is something should be easy for you to do.
Same here. I mean, I went on five more rides when I was experiencing
(24:53):
incredible chest pain that I couldn't have been a heart attack because
I was in good shape. Couldn't have been my heart, you should say it manifested
itself in a heart attack, but it's denial.
So I say it to the population at large because the more of us
that go into the medical community with the condition,
the more they'll recognize that. That many more people are symptomatic.
(25:16):
And if these people keep. If we as the people keep coming in and saying
something's wrong and they can't find it, something's wrong and they can't find it, and
they recognize, oh, this person has a myocardial bridge. I
need. This person has a myocardial bridge. This person, they're going to say, oh, these
things are symptomatic and they are
relatively prolific. And, oh, my gosh, if we start treating
(25:37):
these, how much better off we'll be. But when they
say 1% of the population is
symptomatic, meaning 25% of us have them, but only 1% is
symptomatic, I say, BS man. That's not true. You're
only hearing from 1%. We're the 1% that are coming to
you and saying, we have a problem, we need to get it addressed and or
(25:59):
you're dismissing the rest of them as anxiety and
stress and out of shape, right?
Women especially. Yes. Yep, yep. Women especially.
It's mind boggling. Jeff, I could talk
to you for the rest of the day. It's just so good to see
you and thank you for all the light you bring to my
(26:22):
life to other heart patients through your
podcast studio. And I will make sure to put in the
show notes how to find your podcast, how to find you.
You are doing so many important things for
the heart community and I could not be more grateful.
Well, Boots, thank you. Just the opportunity to share this conversation
(26:44):
with you on your podcast itself is a huge deal and
it's an expression of opportunity. And let me
say, I am grateful for you, for the ability
to do this and get it out to your audience as well. Thank you.
Well, you've heard it here folks. Thanks to Jeff Holden and
thank you for being part of this podcast.
(27:07):
Do let me know how you're doing. I always love hearing from
listeners. You can get in touch with me in the
DMS on Instagram. I definitely respond there.
You can send me an email bootsheartchamber
podcast.com I just
absolutely adore all my listeners and I am here for you
(27:28):
and I will not let you ever feel alone. You
do not have to walk this journey alone. So be
sure to join the community. Go to Patreon, follow me on
Instagram, you can find me on LinkedIn. And remember that I love
you, your heart is your best friend and you matter
in this world. So you deserve to be the CEO of your
(27:51):
health and keep advocating for being the
best person you can be in this world. Come back next
week for our last episode of Hope for the Holidays.
Getting to spend another day on the planet, to have my feet hit the ground
when I roll out of bed, to take that breath in the morning and open
my eyes. And I will say, over time, it's still
easy to forget the reality of what's
been done for us, any of us that have had the surgery,
that we get to spend this extra time, hopefully doing
(00:21):
something engaging with a greater degree of
appreciation, with a more grateful
nature. Hello. Boots Knighton here.
Welcome back to another episode of Open Heart
Surgery with Boots. Today is a
very special episode for me. I
(00:43):
am excited to bring you Jeff Holden
for our third installment of Hope for the Holidays.
But let me tell you a little bit about Jeff. So
Jeff and I have met through a Facebook
group for myocardial bridging patients,
and Jeff was the very first
(01:05):
interview I did for this podcast.
Bless this man. Up, down, left, and right for
putting up with me in my first ever
interview. And I'm like, my face is hurting because I'm
smiling so big. Because, first of all, Jeff, you said
yes to this, like, person who had never podcasted a day
(01:27):
in Her Light. You own your own studio, and we've
become friends. Like, I'm always so excited
just to, like, talk to you. You were so generous with
your time then, and you're generous with your time now.
And the other thing I absolutely love about you is how you're just like, I
am a Chicago native. I have never met anyone from
(01:50):
Chicago who was so proud to be from Chicago,
and I have got to go visit that city just because you are so proud
of it. So, of course, you live in California now,
and you were absolutely thriving and kicking butt
at making myocardial bridging
more well known, more talked about in the field
(02:13):
of cardiology. There's so much for us to unpack with
your very positive update for Hope for the Holidays. But
mostly, thank you for being my fellow heart buddy. Well, first of all,
Boots, the. The first episode was a blast to do because it's fun to see
somebody else get into podcasting and have a passion for it and have a
passion for what the mission of the podcast is as
(02:34):
well. So congratulations on your program and all
that you're doing for people with open heart surgery, because I think they really do
appreciate it. There's so much misinformation out there and disinformation
and confusion when we get into, you know, any of these things concerning our
hearts. So congratulations there. And, yes, it is a pleasure to
say you are a friend. We've met at some of the Other podcast
(02:56):
meetups. And it's so wonderful to be able
to actually see and touch and get in the environment
of somebody when you only have a virtual experience
for the introduction. So congratulations on all of that.
Thank you. Thank you. Let me give you a high level view of
how we connected. So obviously we're both
(03:18):
myocardial bridge patients. We've both had our surgery. We
met on the Facebook group, and in my case, a little bit different. I'm a
little bit after you. I'm about two and a half years, a little more than
two and a half years out from my surgery. Similar situation. We go through the
misdiagnosis, the challenges of getting diagnosed. I'm a little bit
older. My whole situation happened a little bit faster. I had that
(03:40):
heart attack that caused all these uncertainties of what was going on
and how it could have happened when I was in great shape at the time.
And it eventually led me to Stanford, where I actually had the privilege
of meeting Dr. Trimmel. I didn't meet Dr. Schnicker at first. I
met her after my surgery because I came in the back door through the emergency
room and met with Dr. Boyd. Boyd performed my surgery
(04:03):
a little bit different than most in that I also had a bypass, a
Lima bypass. So I've got a myocardial bridge on
roofing as well as the Lima bypass. And as a
result of that, there was an epiphany for me in the
process of the surgery, post surgery recovery,
where I had quite the dream. And I
(04:25):
will say the dream was a life changing dream
because even to this day, it's still as vivid as it was the
day that I had it, the day that I woke up after experiencing it and
sharing it with my wife and just a tearful reunion when she came in the
room. But it made me realize that a lot of different things
that maybe I'd just been thinking about and they all came out and manifested themselves
(04:47):
through this dream after the surgery. Maybe it was the drugs, maybe it was lack
of sleep, I don't know. But whatever it is, I am so grateful for
it. And you've heard me say many times on our program that
these things don't happen to us, they happen for us. And as long as
we keep the perspective of the fact that these
things, almost everything happens for us. So, you know, we
(05:09):
look at it and if we try to find the reasons and the positivity out
of it, how we're going to cope, what we're going to do, what the adjustments
are as a result of the situation, Whatever that
situation be, in this case, for us, it was the myocardial bridge. For others, it's
open heart surgery, it's bypass, it's all sorts of heart
conditions that can be remedied through surgery.
(05:31):
That there's a gratefulness that comes out of it.
And certainly in my case, you know, that gratitude at 65
years old, having lived a life and a career and a variety
of experiences really took a turn
to where there was an absolute necessity to do a better job of giving
back and making sure that the people who have this condition
(05:54):
have a better understanding of it. And as I was exiting the hospital on
my release, my discharge day, Dr. Boyd came in. It
was a Saturday. And I remember looking at him and saying, hey, I need you
to do me a favor. I do podcasts for a living. I tell stories. I
help people tell stories. I'm a communicator. I connect people.
If this didn't happen this way
(06:15):
to me, somebody who does podcasts and communicates and shares
information, what else am I meant to do? I mean,
that's about as clear an indication, at least in my mind, that this
program is a necessity in the fabric of my life and my profession,
what I'm going to do going forward. And I said, I need, Dr. Boyd, I
need for you to be one of my first guests because
(06:37):
you performed the surgery that so many people are uncertain about.
They. They call it controversial, yet so many of us are
benefited as a result of the surgery. And he said, absolutely. So
as I was walking out of that room, I knew right away, this is going
to be, you know, one of the things that we do. And again, as a
result of the dream, which is a result of the surgery, which is a result
of the condition, we do an incredible amount of
(07:01):
programming for nonprofit organizations. And
the nonprofit podcast network is another one of our
vertical productions that we do from the studio. All born out
of that dream. And that dream was, it was an
epiphany to say, you need to do some things differently, and you need to really
get your arms around what you do. And, you know, to say, I'm a
(07:22):
grateful patient is really an under way, an
underestimate of just the experience of
getting to spend another day on the planet. To have, you know, my feet hit
the ground when I roll out of bed, to take that breath in the morning
and open my eyes, and I will say, you know, over time, it's
still easy to forget the reality of what's
(07:43):
been done for us. Any of us that have had the surgery
that, you know, we get to spend this extra time, hopefully doing
something engaging with a greater degree of
appreciation, with a more grateful
nature. And because we're looking at a month of
gratitude, November. I appreciate what you're doing and
(08:04):
the ability to say thank you and to
recognize the people who have made our lives better as a
result on any given day and to be able to share that with
somebody, you know, whether it's, you know, a hello or hi, how you
doing? With sincerity, you know, not just the, you know, the flippant,
everything's good. Because we know that gratitude
(08:25):
expressed with sincerity is a visceral reaction.
It changes the. It literally changes the synapsis in the
brain as a positive. And they do
establish a memory. So the more you're grateful, the more you
express the gratitude, the more likely you will continue to express it because the
brain says, hey, this is a good thing. Let's keep doing it. And we had
(08:47):
the good fortune of having a gratitude
psychologist on the program last year right around the holiday.
And we'll repurpose it again this year. Dr. Peggy
Delong. And who would think there'd be a gratitude
psychologist out there? But that is what she specializes in, right? I
want her job. Right. That's
(09:08):
cool. It really is. And she does a lot of public speaking,
and it's obviously all on the nature of gratitude. Ironically, she
had a heart condition scare. So she could relate
to some degree to what we go through with our
situation. Although she didn't need surgery, it was easily remedied.
But I recall and I wear to this day. I don't know if
(09:31):
you can see this. There's a black bracelet here and there's a little
silver bead on it. She sent it to me after the program. She does these
as her outlet therapy of sorts. She makes
bracelets. This is the gratitude bracelet. And the little silver bead
on there is a reminder to be grateful for something.
Every time you look at that bracelet. Every time I look at that bracelet and
(09:53):
I see that little piece of silver, it's like, hey, dope, don't. It's not that
bad a day. Everything's good. You're still here. Be grateful for something. What is
it? And it just reminds me to recognize,
you know, the people, the places, the passions that I get to perform
and things I get to do in my life that make
it wonderful, you know, every. Every single day.
(10:15):
So from, from that perspective, what a
wonderful thing to put a series together of people saying thank you
who have experienced, you know, a life threatening or a life challenging
situation to where they can step back. And I know people
say step back, smell the roses, do things differently. I certainly do.
You know, if I'm out doing my exercise, which in my case is
(10:37):
cycling, I would always blow by everything because I'm trying to just
pace a little bit better or perform a little bit better today. I'll
stop if I see something really cool. I'll take a picture of it, you know,
and post it on that particular ride or send it to somebody and say, hey,
check out what I saw on the trail today. Or, you know, this
experience. Whereas, God, that never would have happened
(10:58):
before. So many nuggets in there that I have question
marks about. And thank you for sharing all of that. My
biggest question that I continue to
ponder is I know I could not be
where I'm at now with my gratitude
and my love for life without my heart
(11:20):
surgery. Like I am just such an experiential
learner. I could not have learned the perspective I
have now through a book or a place of worship. Do
you think what you and I have been gifted is
attainable through teaching? I
mean, it just seems like we are
(11:43):
the lucky ones. Yeah, no,
I don't think you can teach it. I think you have to experience it.
We can profess it. I have a great deal of faith. I certainly
do believe in a higher power. And I thank God every night
and often during the day that I get to do what I get to do
as a result of what could have been really either debilitating
(12:06):
or death. I don't think it's something
we can share and express without the experience.
I think people can get close, they can understand
and comprehend, but the experience of it changes
that dynamic. It's not to say somebody else can't be grateful and express
gratitude by any means. Absolutely, yes you can.
(12:28):
But when there's that significant
threat of loss of significant
loss and possibly loss of life, life of loss of any ability to
do anything any longer, and loss to
the community you serve, loss to the people around you. And when you start to
really think that through, which I didn't prior to,
(12:51):
but post, I certainly do. And I'm more grateful
for them than ever that I'm still here to get to see them,
you know, whether it's, you know, our kids or our grandkids, you know, certainly
my spouse, the people I work with every
day is, is just that reminder when you do see them
that you've been given this gift, don't
(13:14):
squander it and make the most of it. Do what you can with
it. In spite of all the other stuff that you're going to deal with, in
spite of all the other crap that's going to come up, because that's reality of
just living. But to recognize nothing
is as important as the ability to
live a life fulfilled, you know, a grateful life,
(13:34):
and one that you're giving back to somebody. To say
that there was a benefit of that relationship, that
association, even if it's just that contact with somebody
in a casual sense. Yeah, yeah. I've
been saying lately, I feel like the world needs heart surgery.
You know, we. We had the benefit of a meetup
(13:58):
and there were about 12 of us. 12 of us, which
I can't. Maybe the biggest gathering of anybody with
myocardial bridges together in one space. Not all
surgically unroofed, but certainly the two that were in the room that
weren't, were still very appreciative of where they were in
their journey. And that's significant because they
(14:20):
understood they are either moving down the path to recovery
and surgery, or they've gotten to a point in their
process where what they're doing is working.
And hopefully for them, it will continue.
You know, we know typically it deteriorates over
time. Yeah. But again, depending on the severity.
(14:42):
But that, that appreciation. And this was mostly couples, so they were
with their significant others or spouses. And it was really wonderful
to see the gratitude both ways, you know, from the
spouse to the patient, the patient to the spouse, knowing
everybody saying that there's no way I could do this without my significant
other. And that in itself is an
(15:04):
expression of gratitude. And you are doing
incredible things with your studio. You had mentioned the
nonprofit network. But then tell us about Imperfect
Heart Podcast. Yeah, Imperfect Heart Podcast,
available wherever you seek. Your podcast out is a
program that was specifically designed for people with myocardial bridges.
(15:26):
And what we do is we try to alternate the episodes.
Patient, possibly on a journey, still there. They're not
on roof. They haven't had their surgery yet. Or patients
who have had their surgery, could be six months, could be a year out, could
be five years out. As one of the longest term people that we've
interviewed, and it's the expression of all that
(15:47):
activity. What did it take? What were their conditions? What were the symptoms they
were experiencing? How did they get to where they got. Did they have insurance issues?
So it covers a gamut of their experience. Because the thing that we
can't stress enough, and I'm sure you see it with everybody you speak with, there
are no two alike. There are no two symptomatic.
Experiences that are alike, similar, but not the same. And there are no
(16:09):
two unroofing procedures that are like everybody's bridge is different. It's shorter,
it's longer, it's deeper, it's obfuscated by something.
So the nature of those stories, each one is
unique to that individual. And each of the surgeons does the
surgery a little bit differently. So we don't quite yet
have, nor maybe we never will, a specific
(16:32):
protocol that exactly do it this way. And I hope we get to
a point where we know that there is an absolute best practice. But this is
still new, and these unroofing procedures are still
very fresh in the surgical
world, having been done maybe 10, 12 years. I think Dr.
Boyd probably still is the leader in terms of the numbers he's done. And it's
(16:54):
only about 250 over the course of 12 years. So that's wild.
Take your surgeon who's probably done 5, 6, 8, 10, maybe,
you know, the robotic guys who have done the most, they've done maybe 30,
40, 50. You know, we're not talking about thousands. No,
you know, it's an aggregation of. And so the purpose of the program is
(17:14):
really to give people that spirit of hope, to know you're not
alone, that there are a lot of us out there who
are experiencing the same thing, and to learn about proper
procedure and diagnostics and what to look for, what to
expect, what to get your head around in
terms of what you're experiencing. And also, our
(17:37):
objective is to find a doctor in each state that is
performing the surgery. Now, we have some states where we have multiples, others
where we have none, but we're working toward
that goal of one in each state so that whomever is in wherever they are
in the United States, we've got a place for you to go. We've got a
gentleman that just finished his surgery about three weeks ago. To the best of
(17:58):
our knowledge, the place he had to go. It was their first
unroofing procedure, and he used all the tools from
the podcast and the Facebook group to share with them. He's an
engineer, so he was very specific in terms of what needs to be done. And
they said, we think we can do this. They obviously do surgeries, and they do
bypass surgeries, and they do aortic surgeries. And our surgery isn't the
(18:20):
most complex. It's just novel, and
so far, so good. Incredible. Look at all the good work you're
doing. We have a surgeon in Sedona. We've got some really
Cool episodes coming up from, you know, people that have traveled abroad.
And we have a gentleman that he's from Perth, Australia,
and he had his surgery done in all places
(18:42):
Pakistan, because he had no money and he needed to go someplace.
And there was a doctor in Pakistan that said, we can do it. And
so he went there and got it done. And he's in great
shape right now. So amazing. I mean, I just have to
clap that. And this is the beauty of podcasting,
because we get to hear about all this and
(19:04):
our media isn't necessarily covering all that. And
this is the good news. This is. This is the good in the
world. This is the miracles in the world. And this is
the beauty of living in the year 2024,
going into 2025, when we can find each other
across oceans and help each other. You know, I have to
(19:26):
share. We just. One of the women who were at the
meetup has a daughter who's a nurse who is a
contributing editor to a digital
magazine called Next Avenue, that's a PBS
production, Public Broadcasting System production. And because of her
mom's condition, she wanted to do an article on it, and they said yes,
(19:48):
and it just got published. And they mentioned
the podcast in there because it's a great resource.
So I'm excited to say that people are starting to
recognize the value of the communication of
this often dismissed condition, you know, often
misdiagnosed. And there is a big clinical
(20:09):
trial being done, as you're aware, out of Yale. Dr.
Sameet Shah is performing that clinical trial with 500
cohorts, and he's got the majority now of
the major clinics, Stanford, Cleveland Clinic,
Mayo, UPMC in Pennsylvania,
Houston. And they're all involved on this in
(20:31):
attempting to set protocol for proper diagnosis
not only of myocardial bridges, but any of the conditions that present with
no apparent occlusion, no blockage.
And he's, he's getting there, you know, so that's a step in the right direction
if we can get to where people are saying, oh, yeah, this is a condition.
We need to address this. How do we properly diagnose?
(20:52):
Great. And they're using the Stanford protocol for testing, which is the
provocative test that is definitive. And then of course,
CT angiograms for anybody that has this condition is the noninvasive
test that is the gold standard without having to go into a
catheterization. So we're making progress. It's all too
slow. I firmly believe people are dying from the condition,
(21:14):
and it presents itself as just a coronary blockage. He Died, the
widowmaker was blocked. She died, the widowmaker was blocked. But I think if they
were to do autopsies on each of these people, that they would
find that probably what it is in the population. One in four of
them had a myocardial bridge. And okay, say I'm
wrong. Call it 10%. There's 700,000 people a year that die
(21:36):
from, you know, heart disease. That's 70,000 people.
And let's say I'm wrong there and it's, it's 1%. That's
7,000 people. So what can we do to
improve that proper diagnostic and make the
medical community more aware to look for this condition when somebody
presents with something that doesn't make sense? Yeah. I mean,
(21:57):
again, we're the lucky ones. Over and over. I mean,
I'm just awestruck at. Even though
the road has been really hard at times, incredibly
hard, I'm still awestruck at how
fortunate I feel on a daily basis. And I know you do too.
Yeah. And I'm one of the blessed few who post
(22:20):
surgery. Nothing. I've been fine. And that's what I wanted to
ask you about is like, how, how did, how are you thriving?
What is the secret sauce? I think back to
the earlier part of the conversation. Everybody's unique. You know, I went into it
in good shape, so that's a plus. But it's, it's
a chemistry issue, it's an environmental issue, it's a mental
(22:42):
issue. I think it's just all of these things combined, we just don't
know. And everybody's going to have a different journey through the process.
Some people are a hundred percent. We've probably got 50,
60% of the people that we've interviewed are 100% back. Everything's fine.
Some have some symptoms and, but, but nothing
anywhere near what they had. And others, a
(23:05):
very small percentage, have some other issues that
have presented themselves, but they would have been pre existing, just
unknown. So they're dealing with stuff now that they didn't realize that they had. And
they have to get through that process in the next part of their, their unique
medical journey to finish us off here. What is something
that you just wish you could yell from the mountaintop
(23:26):
to heart patients that will come after you because there will
be folks that come after you and I. Right. That's why we both host our
podcast. So what's that one burning piece of like,
advice that you just need everyone, every heart patient to
know? I'm going to expand that to the population at
large because there's this big
(23:47):
thing. It's called denial. And when we
experience something, and it's men and women,
I don't think it's impacted any greater on either side, because women will do it
to protect because they have other stuff to do, and they want to continue to,
you know, serve their family and do what they need to do, because in many
cases, they're relied upon for that. So they'll suffer this
(24:09):
chest pain and they'll recognize, oh, something's not right, it's angina,
it hurts, but it goes away. Or, you know, I'm short of breath,
but I just got to get this stuff done. Guys are, you know,
macho. Stuff can't be wrong. I'm not going to go to the doctor. All that
stuff is important. If you experience chest pain and shortness
of breath, there's something wrong. And I don't
(24:31):
recall your story in terms of, oh, yes, I do now. It just came to
me. We all do it. You were climbing mountaintops and
total exhaustion and going, no, I'll be fine. I'll just suck it up at the
top. When I. I don't know what's wrong with me, but it's fine. And your
husband's going, no, no, this is something should be easy for you to do.
Same here. I mean, I went on five more rides when I was experiencing
(24:53):
incredible chest pain that I couldn't have been a heart attack because
I was in good shape. Couldn't have been my heart, you should say it manifested
itself in a heart attack, but it's denial.
So I say it to the population at large because the more of us
that go into the medical community with the condition,
the more they'll recognize that. That many more people are symptomatic.
(25:16):
And if these people keep. If we as the people keep coming in and saying
something's wrong and they can't find it, something's wrong and they can't find it, and
they recognize, oh, this person has a myocardial bridge. I
need. This person has a myocardial bridge. This person, they're going to say, oh, these
things are symptomatic and they are
relatively prolific. And, oh, my gosh, if we start treating
(25:37):
these, how much better off we'll be. But when they
say 1% of the population is
symptomatic, meaning 25% of us have them, but only 1% is
symptomatic, I say, BS man. That's not true. You're
only hearing from 1%. We're the 1% that are coming to
you and saying, we have a problem, we need to get it addressed and or
(25:59):
you're dismissing the rest of them as anxiety and
stress and out of shape, right?
Women especially. Yes. Yep, yep. Women especially.
It's mind boggling. Jeff, I could talk
to you for the rest of the day. It's just so good to see
you and thank you for all the light you bring to my
(26:22):
life to other heart patients through your
podcast studio. And I will make sure to put in the
show notes how to find your podcast, how to find you.
You are doing so many important things for
the heart community and I could not be more grateful.
Well, Boots, thank you. Just the opportunity to share this conversation
(26:44):
with you on your podcast itself is a huge deal and
it's an expression of opportunity. And let me
say, I am grateful for you, for the ability
to do this and get it out to your audience as well. Thank you.
Well, you've heard it here folks. Thanks to Jeff Holden and
thank you for being part of this podcast.
(27:07):
Do let me know how you're doing. I always love hearing from
listeners. You can get in touch with me in the
DMS on Instagram. I definitely respond there.
You can send me an email bootsheartchamber
podcast.com I just
absolutely adore all my listeners and I am here for you
(27:28):
and I will not let you ever feel alone. You
do not have to walk this journey alone. So be
sure to join the community. Go to Patreon, follow me on
Instagram, you can find me on LinkedIn. And remember that I love
you, your heart is your best friend and you matter
in this world. So you deserve to be the CEO of your
(27:51):
health and keep advocating for being the
best person you can be in this world. Come back next
week for our last episode of Hope for the Holidays.
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