April 21, 2023 • 38 mins
With 30 years of professional experience and advanced level certifications, Wendy Behary is the founder and director of The Cognitive Therapy Center of New Jersey and The Schema Therapy Institutes of NJ-NYC-DC. She has been treating clients, training professionals and supervising psychotherapists for more than 20 years. Wendy was on the faculty of the Cognitive Therapy Center and Schema Therapy Institute of New York (until the Institutes merged in 2012), where she trained and worked with Dr. Jeffrey Young since 1989. She is a founding fellow and consulting supervisor for The Academy of Cognitive Therapy (Aaron T. Beck’s Institute). Wendy served as the President of the Executive Board of the International Society of Schema Therapy (ISST) from 2010-2014 and served as the Training and Certification Coordinator for the ISST Executive Board from 2008-2010. She is currently the chair of the Schema Therapy Development Programs Sub-Committee for the ISST.
Wendy Behary has co-authored several chapters and articles on Schema Therapy and Cognitive Therapy. She is the author of an international bestselling book, "Disarming the Narcissist...” translated in 15 languages. The Third Edition was recently released. Wendy has a specialty in treating narcissists and the people who live with and deal with them. As an author and subject matter expert on narcissism, she is a contributing chapter author of several chapters on schema therapy for narcissism for professional readers. She lectures both nationally and internationally to professional and general audiences on schema therapy, narcissism, interpersonal relationships, anger, and dealing with difficult people. She receives consistent high praise for her clear and articulate teaching style and her ability to bring the therapy to life through dramatic demonstrations of client interactions in the treatment room.
Wendy Behary has co-authored several chapters and articles on Schema Therapy and Cognitive Therapy. She is the author of an international bestselling book, "Disarming the Narcissist...” translated in 15 languages. The Third Edition was recently released. Wendy has a specialty in treating narcissists and the people who live with and deal with them. As an author and subject matter expert on narcissism, she is a contributing chapter author of several chapters on schema therapy for narcissism for professional readers. She lectures both nationally and internationally to professional and general audiences on schema therapy, narcissism, interpersonal relationships, anger, and dealing with difficult people. She receives consistent high praise for her clear and articulate teaching style and her ability to bring the therapy to life through dramatic demonstrations of client interactions in the treatment room.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Welcome to Passport Mommy. I'm yourhost, Michelle Jerson. This show is
for anyone raising little humans. Wefeature experts with tips and advice to enrich
the lives of our children. Momand dad. Entrepreneurs tell us they're inspiring
stories, learn about products that couldmake both you and your child's life easier
and more fun. And of course, fellow parents discuss and laugh about what's
(00:23):
happening in their child's world. Motherhoodis a journey. Thanks for joining me
on mine. Welcome to Passport Mommy. I'm Michelle Jerson and I couldn't be
more thrilled to have our first gueston the show today. Wendy Bihari has
co authored several chapters and articles onschematherapy and cognitive therapy, and she is
the author of an international best sellingbook, Disarming the Narcissist. It's been
(00:47):
translated into fifteen languages, so itjust goes to show how much we need
this book. And she has aspecialty in just treating narcissists and the people
who live and deal with them.And I feel like we hear the word
narcissism a lot, and when weare in relationships that can be challenging.
We may be quick to call ourpartner a narcissist, but it is real
(01:08):
and it's something that a lot ofpeople are dealing with, whether it's within
themselves with a certain types of narcissisticbehaviors and quality personality traits, or it
could be an a partner, itcould be an a coworker. So I'm
really happy to have Wendy on theshow today. Hi Wendy, Hi Michelle.
Great to be with you. Thanksfor inviting me. Yes, my
(01:30):
pleasure. So talk to me alittle bit about your background and how you
started and what made you write thisbook, Disarming the Narcissist. No,
sure, yeah, I didn't chooseto be an expert in narcissism. Some
people think, who would choose that? Only a masochist? But I found
(01:53):
myself incredibly intrigued and curious and youknow, just a bit fascinated by how
stirred up I would get when thistype of client would enter my treatment room,
and went on to just continue thework that I was doing at the
time with Jeffrey Young and Schemotherapy anddeveloping an approach for dealing with this,
(02:15):
recognizing from my own mistakes and myown triggers what we needed to do to
try to come up with something thatwould be more helpful and more effective both
for people who have narcissistic personality traitsand for those who are on the receiving
end of this, like partners andfamily members. Right exactly. So,
(02:37):
if you are in a close relationshipwith a narcissist, you might be feeling
frustrated and you're going to just tellus how to kind of deal with I
mean, because I will say that, I think many people would be quick
to say, you have to geta divorce from this person. How can
you possibly be married to them?But what do you talk about in your
book? Should you run or arethere ways of figuring out how to be
(03:00):
with that person? Yeah, I'mglad you asked that question because there's a
lot of mythology in the popular cultureof regarding narcissism, and there's a lot
of demonization of people who are narcissistic. I mean, let's face it,
they will hurt you. They canbe incredibly hurtful, they can be abusive,
(03:21):
they can be aggressive, depends uponwhere they land on the spectrum,
and it is a spectrum of intensityand traits and how they show up.
I wrote this book because I wasworking with many partners who really wanted their
relationships to work. They weren't readyfor that departure. They didn't know that
they ever would be, but theyhad many reasons at the moment for staying,
(03:45):
and some of them had to dowith actually loving this person despite the
painful behaviors. And so I wrotethe book mostly for people who are dealing
with them living with them, butalso those who are leaving and are prepared
airing their exit strategies because it's justbecome untenable, too dangerous, you know,
too much of a price to pay. So what I would say to
(04:10):
people who are still living with it, or even those who have left and
are still trying to make sense outof it, is learn all you can
about what narcissistic personality really is,not from popular culture. I mean,
learn this from the experts. Thereare some experts out there besides me who
(04:31):
can tell you a little bit aboutare a lot about the makeup of someone
with these types of issues and problems. And the reason I say learn about
it is because it's your gateway tofreedom. In many cases, it's your
chance of liberating yourself from all thedoubt that you may carry the self doubt,
(04:51):
the self blame, the regrets,the guilt, the inner critic that
can haunt us when we don't understandit, you know, and we don't
really understand what it's all about.My book was recently picked by Oprah Daily
as a top book on narcissism.I'm very proud of the book. But
alongside me are some other amazing expertsand friends on this subject. So there
(05:15):
are some resources out there to wrapyour head around this a little bit more
carefully. Right, And so ifsomebody feels they are in a relationship with
somebody who is a narcissist, butthey're not sure, how do they know?
How do they come to terms andrealize, Okay, am I with
somebody who is a narcissist? Andare there different types of narcissists? Yeah,
(05:38):
that's a great question too. Yes, I'll start with the last part
first. There are definitely different typesof narcissists. There are the types that
are very what you think of asthe classic grandios. Look at me,
I'm wonderful, I'm superior, I'mthe best. They are. They can
be also incredibly controlling and dominant,arrogant, and you know, they can
(06:02):
also be very charming, so entertaining, they can be superheroes. They're out
there. They're overt. We callthat the overt grandiose type. And then
there are the covert types. Andthe covert types are sometimes harder to spot,
particularly when you're living with them.They're harder to spot because they are
(06:23):
the ones who are seemingly always thevictims, and they are always the victim.
They're the ones that are calling youthe narcissist. You know, you
don't appreciate anything I do. I'mthe one who does everything. I'm the
one who has to deal with allthe suffering. I'm the one who dot
dot dot. And so you getsomeone who has formed this specialness, this
(06:44):
supersense of entitlement, this supersensitivity toall things criticism by the way. They
form this identity as a way offeeling special. So it's either the specialness
of their shiny performance, so it'sthe specialness of their super suffering. But
those are some of the different typesof narcissism. And you know you're in
the presence of someone who has traitsof narcissism. It's one of my clients
(07:09):
puts it so beautifully because you feelyourself being erased. Right, it's a
feeling of not being there. Youknow, you're invisible, You're you're basically
acting as a mirror to reflect forthem their sense of specialness, approval,
adulation, adoration, durrance. Right. Yeah, and that can be extremely
(07:31):
challenging, especially if you are withsomebody who is a covert narcissist, because
if they're always the victim, youcan't ever do anything right, and you're
probably left thinking what did I donow? Really, one little thing I
said? And you're the victim again? How do you? How do you
stay with somebody like that? Howdo you navigate that? It's exasperating.
(07:53):
Not only are you always wrong andyou're always kind of the perpetrator of their
pain, it's it's just this incredulousidea, like this is how my partner
holds me in their mind. I'mthe villain, I'm the bad guy.
I'm always causing them to be thevictim of so much suffering. I never
appreciate anything. You know, youlook at the narcissist and you end up
(08:15):
saying, well, why would yoube with me? You know, which
they shut down and don't respond.Most of the time exactly. It is
hard to imagine why anyone would toleratethat. But then we have to think
about people who and mostly women inthese cases, who have children to protect,
finances that might be at risk,just not wanting to have, not
(08:39):
wanting or ready to face the aftermathor the consequences of leaving someone like this,
where their children's safety may be compromised, where their security may be compromised.
I mean, divorcing a narcissist isno easy task, right, And
I'm not saying you shouldn't. I'msaying it's important to be informed as to
(09:01):
what you're up against. I've supporteda lot of people, men and women,
in the journey to depart as wellas those who choose to stay and
how to find ways to either workon this, you know, build leverage,
to try to get help that mightbe meaningful because there is help out
there, you know, and toknow how to look for signs when again,
(09:24):
the cost just feels too high.Right, And what are the causes
of narcissism? Is it something that'sgenetic? Yeah, you know, the
origins of narcissism are interesting and Iguess somewhat puzzling to people because you get
this person who grows up to bethis in one way, shape or form,
(09:46):
this self righteous, larger than lifeindividual with lots and lots of noise
and bluster in some cases, orthey're more passive aggressive on the other side.
I mean, covert doesn't mean quietnecessarily, but you know in the
back of that what underlies it formost of them is for some the covert
types, there's trauma often in thebackground. For the more grandiose types,
(10:09):
what underlies this is this sense ofbeing chosen. You know, this is
the kid who was the special chosenone, who was going to do great
things, who was going to carryon this family legacy or elevate the family
from a position that you know wasn'tdesirable. They are usually, you know,
(10:30):
the talented kid, the one who'sthe best looking, the athlete,
the academic performer. That's one pathway, you know, where they get
this message that your performance is yourvalue, your work is your worth.
You know, they don't learn alot about connection, which is where they
suffer. They don't come to therapyto really work on mastering tasks. They
come to therapy because the relationships arein peril, either at work or personally.
(10:56):
So it's intimacy and relationship and topersonally, Yeah, they're charming.
That can be amazingly charming and andreally good at kind of sealing a deal
in business, but that doesn't equatewith emotional intimacy and emotional connection. You're
listening to Passport Mommy. I'm MichelleJerson. We'll be right back with Wendy
Bahari. Welcome back to Passport Mommy. I'm Michelle Jerson, and we're talking
(11:22):
with Wendy Bahari. She is thefounder and director of the Cognitive Therapy Center
of New Jersey and the Schema TherapyInstitutes of New Jersey, New York City,
and DC. She's been treating clients, training professionals, and supervising psychotherapists
for more than twenty years, andshe is the author of the international best
selling book, Disarming the Narcissist.Wendy, thank you so much for being
(11:46):
here. Thanks, Michelle, I'mglad to be with you. Thank you.
So we were talking before about wheredoes narcissism come from? Is it
genetic? And how do we stayin a relationship with somebody if we feel
they may be displaying signs of narcissism. Yeah, and you know, again,
there are always genetic components in howwe form a personality, like how
(12:11):
we become so whether it's just ourtraits and how they're formed, our tendencies
or impulses to how we react tothings in our life. Some of that
is, you know, guided bythe biological code that we come into the
world with. But we know thatwe are also affected by the environment that
we need when we come into theworld. And so you know, as
(12:33):
I was saying, I think narcissistsdo tend to either they're either coming from
an environment where they have been justincredibly quote unquote spoiled, not in that
you know, that loving spoiled tenderway, but in that spoiled way where
they don't learn about limits, theydon't learn frustration, tolerance, they're not
really prepared to live in the realworld of relationships, to navigate, to
(12:56):
be reciprocal, to wait your turn, they learn about entitlement. So some
of them come by way of thatpath. Many again, you know,
under under all this bluster and thislarger than life Master of the Universe presentation
is someone who carries great shame andinsecurity. They're they're just not so really
(13:22):
truly comfortable in their own skin atthe core, because you have a child
who was sort of chosen to bewithout emotional weakness quote unquote weakness. You
know, emotions were sort of frivolousand not useful. It was all about
achievement and performance and doing. Andso they tend not to be so good
(13:43):
in that area, and they tendto be lacking in that thing that we
all need called unconditional love. Right, And when you mentioned before that we
may need to think about our childrenand that maybe it's in our best interests
to divorce the narcissist to protect thechildren, even though it could be very
difficult to do. Or you weresaying to that you think twice about getting
(14:03):
a divorce because of the children.But what about do we need to protect
our children from a narcissistic partner?Will they pick up on the traits?
Will it affect their emotional development?This is the biggest question among partners who
have children who are living with oreven divorcing and co parenting with someone who's
(14:24):
narcissistic. It's that big fear.You know, how do I keep my
kids from you know, mimicking inheritingthese traits? And you know, experts
say that children need one healthy parent. They need one healthy parent. So
isn't that a nice big burden forme those who are not narcissistic, But
one healthy parent can you guide theship? And I think one healthy parent
(14:48):
can also help children, you know, by modeling and by educating, and
by giving them a voice when theyare dealing with a narcissistic parent that allows
that they're not bad mouthing the narcissisticparent, but they're teaching the children how
to be able to speak about theirhurts and to speak about their uncomfortable feelings
(15:11):
when the narcissist is acting in waysthat are inappropriate. So it's a lot
of modeling and education and emotional receptivitywith our children under those conditions, right
exactly. And I do think it'sso important. And we as moms put
so much pressure on ourselves to makesure that we're doing the very best that
(15:31):
we can for our children and tomake sure they're in the best environment.
And I think if we could justfocus on ourselves and making sure, like
you said, that we give themthe best upbringing that we can and provide
a healthy environment. You know,I think many of us have felt guilt
about staying with somebody who we feel, oh my gosh, how are they
going to influence the children? Andmaybe you're saying, give us ourselves a
(15:54):
little grace and just focus on ourselvesand working with our children. Absolutely,
give yourselves a lot of grace,you know, be kind to yourself,
care for yourself. Your children needyou to be healthy to be able to
navigate this really challenging situation. Right, And you were saying that a telltale
(16:15):
sign of a narcissist is that lackof empathy. What is it that limits
their capacity for empathy? You know, I think that they I don't think
it's impossible for them to develop thatcapacity. I just believe it's underdeveloped.
I think we all have that capacityunless we have a brain injury. But
I think they're missing it because theytoo were never seen. They weren't truly
(16:38):
seen in that deepest, richest vulnerableway. They were seen for what they
can do or provide or become,but not in that really tender way,
you know, as a just alittle vulnerable child. So because of that
missing piece, their empathic awareness isreally very limited if they're at all in
(17:02):
most relationships, right right, Sointeresting, Well, I want to continue
having you on because there's so muchI feel we can talk about. Next
segment, I want to talk toyou about such a thing as healthy narcissism
and what that is, because Ithink we always think about the not so
great part of narcissistic behavior. We'respeaking with Wendy Bihari. She is a
(17:23):
founder and director of the Cognitive TherapyCenter of New Jersey and the Schema Therapy
Institutes of New Jersey, New YorkCity, and DC and the best selling
author of Disarming the Narcissist. I'mMichelle Jerson, the Passport Mommy more coming
up in a few with Wendy Bihari. You're listening to Passport Mommy. I'm
(17:45):
Michelle Jerson, and I'm here withWendy Bihari. She has thirty years of
professional experience and advanced level certifications.She is the founder and director of the
Cognitive Therapy Center of New Jersey andthe Schema Therapy Institutes of New Jersey,
New York City, and d SEE. She has been treating clients, training
professionals, and supervising psychotherapist for morethan twenty years, and she is the
(18:07):
author of an international best selling book, Disarming the narcissist. And I have
to say that I was reading aquote from her or some part of her
book, and she was quoted somewhereI forget right now where because I get
so many emails, but right awaycaught my attention and I said, I
have to speak to this woman.And I feel that so many of us
(18:27):
feel like, hey, maybe thereis a narcissist in our lives, whether
it is apparent, whether it isa partner or a co worker, or
maybe maybe we're questioning ourselves, orthere narcissistic traits within each of us.
And there can be so many differenttypes of narcissism. So I'm really happy
to have Wendy Bahari on the showwith us today. Hi Wendy, Hi
(18:49):
Michelle, I'm delighted to be talkingwith you again. Thank you. So
talk to me about you know,we've been talking about when you're in a
relationship with somebody who's a narcissist.What about if you have a parent who
is a narcissist and you have beenbrought up in a certain way, does
that I mean, I can't imaginehow that affects you into your adult life.
(19:12):
Yes, and so many of thepeople who have consulted with me have
been exactly that situation. Now,I mean, the path can go in
different directions, and again we haveto take into account, you know,
our own personal disposition, how werespond to the universe, the other parent
(19:33):
in our life who was not narcissistic, and how they managed to protect or
secure us. So there's so manyelements. There's no absolute one size fits
all, And I just want tosay that out loud, because tend to
be so many kind of dramatic andunfortunately unclear ways of understanding this in the
(19:56):
popular media. So I think ofit like this, if you have a
narcissistic parent in your life, thenit could be a monkey see monkey do
right. Plenty of the people I'vetreated, mostly men who are narcissistic,
had a narcissistic parent in their life, and so a lot of this is
the imitation of what they've seen,the expectations that were kind of foisted upon
(20:21):
them, you know, legacies ofnarcissism just generations where the cycle doesn't break.
In other cases, it's someone who'shad a narcissistic parent who's grown up
learning that the only way to livein the world safely is to subjugate yourself,
sacrifice your needs, give in,be a people pleaser, and just
keep the peace at all costs,which you know has its own problems later
(20:44):
on in life when you finally hearthat little wake up bell that says,
what about me when it's my turn? Right? And it's true when it'sn't
my turn? And and can youat that point be in other healthy relationships
you yourself? I think in timeand with help and with some work,
some self discovery, self healing.There's so many paths to healing and so
(21:11):
many good therapies to assist with that. I think, yes, I think
you can be. But it doestake this evolving awareness of what you learned,
how that kind of got laid downin your memory, and how you've
drawn from those experiences almost like ablueprint to predict your life going forward.
(21:32):
I mean, we're all at themercy of our memories, and so it's
our senses will detect something that's familiar, and we can find ourselves responding just
like we did when we were veryyoung without even realizing it. We're using
an old survival skill that had valueonce upon a time and is now kind
of defeating us, like giving inor going quiet or going silent right exactly.
(21:57):
And I think that is when peopledo seek out therapy, what advice
do you give them as to finda therapist who really can address what they
need, because I don't think it'sso easy to find that good fit.
That is the best question being agood consumer of therapy, because I find
(22:18):
so many clients will tell me thatthey have felt reluctant to ask questions.
They felt it was intrusive, disrespectful, they didn't have the right to pry.
And I say, this is thebiggest decision, one of the biggest
decisions you'll make, which is disclosingyour life to someone who, if they
look I look at it this way, is privileged to know you in such
(22:41):
a very candid way. You haveevery right to know what are you paying
for this a lot of time andmoney in therapy? Where how what is
their approach to therapy? You don'tneed necessarily all of their credentials, but
you need to know how do theylook at therapy, How do they approach
therapy? What can you expect inthe way of measurable goals? How will
(23:02):
you get there? What needs ofyours will be taken into account? Will
the therapist be active? Will thetherapists be passive? So you know,
really understanding what that approach looks like. And too often I hear things I
don't know. My therapist just saidthey were very eclectic. Doesn't really say
a whole lot about what you canexpect from your therapy journey, right right?
(23:26):
And I think too, you know, we shouldn't be afraid to interview,
like you said, and take thosetwenty minutes or whatever it is that
somebody can give you to really feelthat, you know, is it a
fit? Is it not? Andyou know it If it's not, that's
okay, it's okay. Yeah,I mean, I will say to clients
often, you know, do youhave questions for me? Ask me anything
(23:48):
you'd like to know, because Icertainly want to share my guidelines with you
about how treatment works, my approach, what you can expect, what it
will be like to be sitting intreat with me. They're usually coming to
me for issues of narcissism, eithermyself or because of a partner or a
family member or boss or something,and you know, I tell them about
(24:10):
my experience and what my approach lookslike, what might be effective, what
might get in the way what wemight be up against, you know,
to help them to be able toanticipate this experience and have informed consent going
in right, which I think isso wonderful. And I give people a
lot of credit, especially like yousaid, those who come to you working
(24:32):
on themselves, who believe that theymay have some narcissistic traits, because you
know, I think a lot oftimes, if you're a narcissist, you
don't think that it has to dowith you. Yeah, well, they
almost never think it as to doit right now, And they're usually walking
in because someone has threatened them withan ultimatum, so they rarely come in
(24:52):
voluntarily. Okay, So it's it'snot a real easy happy day when they
come in, which is all themore reason why the therapist needs to be
very transparent, very real about thepurpose and the mission and compliance and cooperation
and responsibility and accountability, all thethings that narcissistic people don't want to hear
(25:14):
but need to hear. Right exactly, So, there is such a thing
as healthy narcissism. Tell me hownarcissism can also be developmentally a reasonable behavior?
Well, there's two ways I wantto answer that. One is the
development you said developmental, So let'sgo there. It's developmentally natural for babies.
(25:37):
You know, you can think ofthem as narcissists. They're so self
absorbed, these little things. Wellthere's anything, you know, they're supposed
to be. They're supposed to becompletely entitled to having nurturing and love and
care and all of that good stuff. Adolescents go through the kind of developmental
imperative. It's all about me.I know everything, I can do it
myself, I know the world.This is, you know, parenting challenge
(26:03):
at its best and worst right whereyou're working without lessons who are going through
this kind of developmental phase of narcissism. And to some degree, there's a
healthiness in wanting to be autonomous andwanting to figure things out and wanting to
be their own person and speak theirtruth. And you know, a good
parent, a healthy parent, figuresout how to continue to set the limits
(26:26):
and how to continue to apply thatthat thing called discipline, which is not
a dirty word right in a waythat's healthy and you know, to really
help them to learn to become goodreciprocating, empathic humans. Big challenge during
that phase of life where there's somuch turbulence going on. But you know,
healthy narcissism is also we see healthynarcissism sometimes in amazing leaders, people
(26:51):
who just have this kind of overthe top self confidence. They are very
self absorbed, but they're self absorbedusually for the greater good. So it's
not about you know, hurting someonecompromising someone else. They may be stepping
over you or around you a lotbecause they're on a mission, but their
mission is usually going to serve agreater purpose. And so you know,
(27:17):
despite their highly self absorbed energy andthey're very super super degree of confidence,
you know, they're not dangerous people. They're not dangerous. There's something healthy
in that because others will benefit fromthis. You know, this this great
dedication to a mission right right.And you know, I think a lot
(27:38):
of times we may be attracted tosomebody who's narcissistic because they, like you
said, they're the life of theparty. They're really fun to be around.
So how does when you are datingand you meet somebody and you're attracted
to them, you say that theyfit together like a lock and key with
somebody who is not narcissistic, Andso how did the two people fit together
(28:03):
in this relationship. Oh yeah,well, you know, think of that
about it, like someone who feelsentitled to have what they want when they
want it, to make the rulesand break the rules, to be right
about everything. Paired with someone whois willing to defer on their decisions,
opinions, wishes and longings, someonewho is willing to give in for the
sake of peace, someone who iswilling to agree because they don't want to
(28:27):
be abandoned or rejected. And you'vegot a great dysfunctional fit. M right.
Yeah. And what do you dowhen you are not that person who
just agrees to agree just to keepthe peace, and you end up fighting
back against that person who is thenarcissist. You have a very volatile relationship.
(28:48):
Oh, you absolutely can have avery volatile relationship or just one that
becomes completely disenfranchised where you're living inseparate camps. That's a lonely place.
And so many will describe the lonelinessof living in a relationship like this where
they feel not only devalued and diminished, they feel completely detached from their partner.
(29:12):
You know, the wall has goneup and there's there's there's no engagement,
right exactly. And then really whatdo you have left? And I
think at that point then the partnersare thinking, okay, are we staying
together for the kids? And itreally is lonely because is somebody who has
(29:32):
this narcissi and personality? Do theyhave empathy? Are they capable of it?
You know, I think they arecapable of it. I just think
it is so underdeveloped. You know, they did not learn I mean,
empathy is a hard skill for mosthumans to really practice. Some people come
by it very naturally, maybe eventoo much of the time, But then
(29:53):
there are others, many who havenot learned really the skill of stepping inside
the experience of another. And it'snot compassion, it's really understanding. I
mean, so let's clarify empathy fromcompassion. It's not feeling sorrow for someone
or you know, feeling so compelledto fix something or care for them.
(30:15):
It's just a deep, deep senseof getting understanding, making sense of what
someone else is experiencing. You don't. You may not even endorse it or
agree with it, but you getit. And I think that you know
that narcissists have a hard time seeingthe experience of another because so often it
leads to this deep sense of shame, like I'm the bad guy, you
(30:38):
know, if I can see yourinner world where you're so disappointed in me
and i'mhappy with me, and youknow, upset by me because I betrayed
you or I lied to you,or I controlled you, or I was
mean to you. If I haveto really look at that and see what
it's like to be you experiencing thosebehaviors, then I'm really the bad guy,
(30:59):
and I can't tolerate that, right, And so they won't look,
they don't look. It's not they'restupid. I mean, they know,
they know that when they've crossed aline, but they quickly convert that into
denial and defensiveness and dismissiveness and devaluation, all those D words. And if
you've lived with this for a periodof time, you can start going into
(31:22):
the well, maybe it is me, because man, he's really charming out
there in the world with everyone else, and other people really like him,
and he's really fun and I meanwe were fun once upon a time,
So maybe it is me, right? Which is I mean? I think
you speak to so many and I'mgoing to say women, just because you
said a lot of the people whocome to you for help our women and
(31:45):
to talk about their partners. Andso we have one more segment left in
the show. I would love tohave you just talk about how do we
confront the narcissist? How do wetalk to them about it? Because I
want to I just want to knowif you are in this relationship and you're
not running out the door, howdo you manage being with somebody who is
(32:07):
narcissistic. We are speaking with WendyBahari and she is just a wealth of
information when it comes to being witha partner, or a family member or
a co worker. She is thebest selling author of Disarming the Narcissist.
I'm Michelle Jerson, the Passport MommyMore coming up in a few you're listening
(32:30):
to Passport Mommy. I'm Michelle Jersonand we're speaking with Wendy Bahari. She
is the international best selling author ofDisarming the Narcissist. And we were just
talking about what do you do whenyou're in a relationship with a narcissist?
Do you run for the hells onceyou discover it or are there ways of
staying in that relationship? Wendy,do you feel that there are ways of
(32:53):
like you say, disarming the narcissistso that you can be in that relationship.
I do shall. I think that, you know, for those who
have been successful, and it isa great privilege to see those who can
actually work through this. Not everyonecan, and it's just not going to
work for everyone for a number ofdifferent reasons, not the least being you
(33:15):
know, the therapist doesn't feel sturdyenough to work with narcissistic people, the
approach isn't good enough, or therejust isn't enough leverage, like there isn't
enough meaningful consequence to keep them doingthe work. It does require professional help.
I mean, unless the narcissist isreally really mild on the spectrum where
some of the self help work,you can really make a difference. You're
(33:37):
not going to make that change,but you might inspire change. You might
have some influence. You might beable to, as I say, drop
the little seeds in the soil,and there may be a small harvest you
know that can benefit you over time. I think the tool called empathic confrontation,
which I write a lot about inmy book, is one of the
(33:58):
most powerful strategies. It's one Iuse in the treatment room, which means
anything you know to be true aboutyour narcissistic other, you first start with
that. You start with what youknow, because you know they are all
really sensitive to feeling criticized, blamed, or judged. You can even start
(34:19):
a simple example is this is notintended to judge you. There's no part
of me that wants you to feelcriticized by me. If you have something
positive to add, you might evensay, in fact, I appreciate the
fact that you know you've been workingreally hard, and you know you've been
doing a lot, you know,lately with the kids, and I appreciate
that. So there's no part ofme here that wants to judge you or
(34:42):
criticize you. But I was reallydisappointed last night when we were out,
and you know, each time Isaid something when we were sitting with our
friends, you corrected me. Itwas like I felt embarrassed, and I
don't even think you were aware ofit. So I'm not faulting you,
like did it intentionally to be nastyto me. I'm just pointing it out
(35:04):
because it was upsetting and I wantto be honest with you, right.
I love that because I do feellike you've said that if you want to
just start an even bigger fire.I mean, I think people who are
in relationships with narcissists know what they'regoing to say that's going to set off
their partner because it doesn't take much, that's right. So it's like,
(35:25):
do you feel like that person iswalking on eggshells that they always have to
like frame their words perfectly in ordernot to have their partner explode. Well,
it's it's an incredibly tedious burden.And I will usually say, you
know, you need to light thetorch and lead the way, but you
can't carry that forever. This can'tbe a way of life. It's I
(35:45):
mean, some people will sign upfor this as a way of life because
it does work at times, butit's it's a lot to carry. And
that's why I say, with therapy, you know, this approach is or
the style of communicating is a waythat can begin to kind of reach it
deep down into the core of thenarcissist where they feel so much shame and
(36:08):
begin to, with the help oftherapy, reorganize the way things are kind
of settled in their experiences so thata partner who's doing this initially doesn't have
to be so careful all the time, because you're absolutely right. Otherwise you're
just walking on eggshells. You're constantlywalking around trying to carefully craft everything that
(36:29):
comes out of your mouth so thatit doesn't land as a criticism. And
even then when you're speaking eloquently,they might take it as a criticism.
So I say to anyone listening,there is always a victory in finding your
voice. There is always a victoryin using your voice. And when you
use it thoughtfully like this, evenif it doesn't land well, hooray for
(36:50):
you because you have become an advocatefor yourself and you can feel that power
within yourself of being that good advocateeven if it doesn't land well with the
narcissist. You if you have lostyour voice over time, you now have
it again, and you have itin a way that doesn't have to be
wearying with so much anger always comingout. Yes, excellent advice, And
(37:15):
I feel like there's so much morewe can talk about how to know when
to finally leave? Can the narcissisreally changed? So I'll have to have
you back on the show another time. In the meantime, where can we
go to get disarming the narcissist?Well, you can go to Amazon,
of course it's available there, butyou can also go to my website and
I have a lot of resources onmy website in addition to ways to get
(37:38):
the book and more information www dotDisarming the Narcissist dot com or simply type
in Wendy Beherry Perfect. Thank youso much. I really appreciate you joining
me today on Passport Mommy, WendyBeharry. It was so great speaking with
you, great being with you too. Thank you, Michelle, my pleasure.
(38:00):
I'm Michelle Jerson the Passport Mommy.Thank you so much for joining me
this week, and I'll talk toyou next time.
Welcome to Passport Mommy. I'm yourhost, Michelle Jerson. This show is
for anyone raising little humans. Wefeature experts with tips and advice to enrich
the lives of our children. Momand dad. Entrepreneurs tell us they're inspiring
stories, learn about products that couldmake both you and your child's life easier
and more fun. And of course, fellow parents discuss and laugh about what's
(00:23):
happening in their child's world. Motherhoodis a journey. Thanks for joining me
on mine. Welcome to Passport Mommy. I'm Michelle Jerson and I couldn't be
more thrilled to have our first gueston the show today. Wendy Bihari has
co authored several chapters and articles onschematherapy and cognitive therapy, and she is
the author of an international best sellingbook, Disarming the Narcissist. It's been
(00:47):
translated into fifteen languages, so itjust goes to show how much we need
this book. And she has aspecialty in just treating narcissists and the people
who live and deal with them.And I feel like we hear the word
narcissism a lot, and when weare in relationships that can be challenging.
We may be quick to call ourpartner a narcissist, but it is real
(01:08):
and it's something that a lot ofpeople are dealing with, whether it's within
themselves with a certain types of narcissisticbehaviors and quality personality traits, or it
could be an a partner, itcould be an a coworker. So I'm
really happy to have Wendy on theshow today. Hi Wendy, Hi Michelle.
Great to be with you. Thanksfor inviting me. Yes, my
(01:30):
pleasure. So talk to me alittle bit about your background and how you
started and what made you write thisbook, Disarming the Narcissist. No,
sure, yeah, I didn't chooseto be an expert in narcissism. Some
people think, who would choose that? Only a masochist? But I found
(01:53):
myself incredibly intrigued and curious and youknow, just a bit fascinated by how
stirred up I would get when thistype of client would enter my treatment room,
and went on to just continue thework that I was doing at the
time with Jeffrey Young and Schemotherapy anddeveloping an approach for dealing with this,
(02:15):
recognizing from my own mistakes and myown triggers what we needed to do to
try to come up with something thatwould be more helpful and more effective both
for people who have narcissistic personality traitsand for those who are on the receiving
end of this, like partners andfamily members. Right exactly. So,
(02:37):
if you are in a close relationshipwith a narcissist, you might be feeling
frustrated and you're going to just tellus how to kind of deal with I
mean, because I will say that, I think many people would be quick
to say, you have to geta divorce from this person. How can
you possibly be married to them?But what do you talk about in your
book? Should you run or arethere ways of figuring out how to be
(03:00):
with that person? Yeah, I'mglad you asked that question because there's a
lot of mythology in the popular cultureof regarding narcissism, and there's a lot
of demonization of people who are narcissistic. I mean, let's face it,
they will hurt you. They canbe incredibly hurtful, they can be abusive,
(03:21):
they can be aggressive, depends uponwhere they land on the spectrum,
and it is a spectrum of intensityand traits and how they show up.
I wrote this book because I wasworking with many partners who really wanted their
relationships to work. They weren't readyfor that departure. They didn't know that
they ever would be, but theyhad many reasons at the moment for staying,
(03:45):
and some of them had to dowith actually loving this person despite the
painful behaviors. And so I wrotethe book mostly for people who are dealing
with them living with them, butalso those who are leaving and are prepared
airing their exit strategies because it's justbecome untenable, too dangerous, you know,
too much of a price to pay. So what I would say to
(04:10):
people who are still living with it, or even those who have left and
are still trying to make sense outof it, is learn all you can
about what narcissistic personality really is,not from popular culture. I mean,
learn this from the experts. Thereare some experts out there besides me who
(04:31):
can tell you a little bit aboutare a lot about the makeup of someone
with these types of issues and problems. And the reason I say learn about
it is because it's your gateway tofreedom. In many cases, it's your
chance of liberating yourself from all thedoubt that you may carry the self doubt,
(04:51):
the self blame, the regrets,the guilt, the inner critic that
can haunt us when we don't understandit, you know, and we don't
really understand what it's all about.My book was recently picked by Oprah Daily
as a top book on narcissism.I'm very proud of the book. But
alongside me are some other amazing expertsand friends on this subject. So there
(05:15):
are some resources out there to wrapyour head around this a little bit more
carefully. Right, And so ifsomebody feels they are in a relationship with
somebody who is a narcissist, butthey're not sure, how do they know?
How do they come to terms andrealize, Okay, am I with
somebody who is a narcissist? Andare there different types of narcissists? Yeah,
(05:38):
that's a great question too. Yes, I'll start with the last part
first. There are definitely different typesof narcissists. There are the types that
are very what you think of asthe classic grandios. Look at me,
I'm wonderful, I'm superior, I'mthe best. They are. They can
be also incredibly controlling and dominant,arrogant, and you know, they can
(06:02):
also be very charming, so entertaining, they can be superheroes. They're out
there. They're overt. We callthat the overt grandiose type. And then
there are the covert types. Andthe covert types are sometimes harder to spot,
particularly when you're living with them.They're harder to spot because they are
(06:23):
the ones who are seemingly always thevictims, and they are always the victim.
They're the ones that are calling youthe narcissist. You know, you
don't appreciate anything I do. I'mthe one who does everything. I'm the
one who has to deal with allthe suffering. I'm the one who dot
dot dot. And so you getsomeone who has formed this specialness, this
(06:44):
supersense of entitlement, this supersensitivity toall things criticism by the way. They
form this identity as a way offeeling special. So it's either the specialness
of their shiny performance, so it'sthe specialness of their super suffering. But
those are some of the different typesof narcissism. And you know you're in
the presence of someone who has traitsof narcissism. It's one of my clients
(07:09):
puts it so beautifully because you feelyourself being erased. Right, it's a
feeling of not being there. Youknow, you're invisible, You're you're basically
acting as a mirror to reflect forthem their sense of specialness, approval,
adulation, adoration, durrance. Right. Yeah, and that can be extremely
(07:31):
challenging, especially if you are withsomebody who is a covert narcissist, because
if they're always the victim, youcan't ever do anything right, and you're
probably left thinking what did I donow? Really, one little thing I
said? And you're the victim again? How do you? How do you
stay with somebody like that? Howdo you navigate that? It's exasperating.
(07:53):
Not only are you always wrong andyou're always kind of the perpetrator of their
pain, it's it's just this incredulousidea, like this is how my partner
holds me in their mind. I'mthe villain, I'm the bad guy.
I'm always causing them to be thevictim of so much suffering. I never
appreciate anything. You know, youlook at the narcissist and you end up
(08:15):
saying, well, why would yoube with me? You know, which
they shut down and don't respond.Most of the time exactly. It is
hard to imagine why anyone would toleratethat. But then we have to think
about people who and mostly women inthese cases, who have children to protect,
finances that might be at risk,just not wanting to have, not
(08:39):
wanting or ready to face the aftermathor the consequences of leaving someone like this,
where their children's safety may be compromised, where their security may be compromised.
I mean, divorcing a narcissist isno easy task, right, And
I'm not saying you shouldn't. I'msaying it's important to be informed as to
(09:01):
what you're up against. I've supporteda lot of people, men and women,
in the journey to depart as wellas those who choose to stay and
how to find ways to either workon this, you know, build leverage,
to try to get help that mightbe meaningful because there is help out
there, you know, and toknow how to look for signs when again,
(09:24):
the cost just feels too high.Right, And what are the causes
of narcissism? Is it something that'sgenetic? Yeah, you know, the
origins of narcissism are interesting and Iguess somewhat puzzling to people because you get
this person who grows up to bethis in one way, shape or form,
(09:46):
this self righteous, larger than lifeindividual with lots and lots of noise
and bluster in some cases, orthey're more passive aggressive on the other side.
I mean, covert doesn't mean quietnecessarily, but you know in the
back of that what underlies it formost of them is for some the covert
types, there's trauma often in thebackground. For the more grandiose types,
(10:09):
what underlies this is this sense ofbeing chosen. You know, this is
the kid who was the special chosenone, who was going to do great
things, who was going to carryon this family legacy or elevate the family
from a position that you know wasn'tdesirable. They are usually, you know,
(10:30):
the talented kid, the one who'sthe best looking, the athlete,
the academic performer. That's one pathway, you know, where they get
this message that your performance is yourvalue, your work is your worth.
You know, they don't learn alot about connection, which is where they
suffer. They don't come to therapyto really work on mastering tasks. They
come to therapy because the relationships arein peril, either at work or personally.
(10:56):
So it's intimacy and relationship and topersonally, Yeah, they're charming.
That can be amazingly charming and andreally good at kind of sealing a deal
in business, but that doesn't equatewith emotional intimacy and emotional connection. You're
listening to Passport Mommy. I'm MichelleJerson. We'll be right back with Wendy
Bahari. Welcome back to Passport Mommy. I'm Michelle Jerson, and we're talking
(11:22):
with Wendy Bahari. She is thefounder and director of the Cognitive Therapy Center
of New Jersey and the Schema TherapyInstitutes of New Jersey, New York City,
and DC. She's been treating clients, training professionals, and supervising psychotherapists
for more than twenty years, andshe is the author of the international best
selling book, Disarming the Narcissist.Wendy, thank you so much for being
(11:46):
here. Thanks, Michelle, I'mglad to be with you. Thank you.
So we were talking before about wheredoes narcissism come from? Is it
genetic? And how do we stayin a relationship with somebody if we feel
they may be displaying signs of narcissism. Yeah, and you know, again,
there are always genetic components in howwe form a personality, like how
(12:11):
we become so whether it's just ourtraits and how they're formed, our tendencies
or impulses to how we react tothings in our life. Some of that
is, you know, guided bythe biological code that we come into the
world with. But we know thatwe are also affected by the environment that
we need when we come into theworld. And so you know, as
(12:33):
I was saying, I think narcissistsdo tend to either they're either coming from
an environment where they have been justincredibly quote unquote spoiled, not in that
you know, that loving spoiled tenderway, but in that spoiled way where
they don't learn about limits, theydon't learn frustration, tolerance, they're not
really prepared to live in the realworld of relationships, to navigate, to
(12:56):
be reciprocal, to wait your turn, they learn about entitlement. So some
of them come by way of thatpath. Many again, you know,
under under all this bluster and thislarger than life Master of the Universe presentation
is someone who carries great shame andinsecurity. They're they're just not so really
(13:22):
truly comfortable in their own skin atthe core, because you have a child
who was sort of chosen to bewithout emotional weakness quote unquote weakness. You
know, emotions were sort of frivolousand not useful. It was all about
achievement and performance and doing. Andso they tend not to be so good
(13:43):
in that area, and they tendto be lacking in that thing that we
all need called unconditional love. Right, And when you mentioned before that we
may need to think about our childrenand that maybe it's in our best interests
to divorce the narcissist to protect thechildren, even though it could be very
difficult to do. Or you weresaying to that you think twice about getting
(14:03):
a divorce because of the children.But what about do we need to protect
our children from a narcissistic partner?Will they pick up on the traits?
Will it affect their emotional development?This is the biggest question among partners who
have children who are living with oreven divorcing and co parenting with someone who's
(14:24):
narcissistic. It's that big fear.You know, how do I keep my
kids from you know, mimicking inheritingthese traits? And you know, experts
say that children need one healthy parent. They need one healthy parent. So
isn't that a nice big burden forme those who are not narcissistic, But
one healthy parent can you guide theship? And I think one healthy parent
(14:48):
can also help children, you know, by modeling and by educating, and
by giving them a voice when theyare dealing with a narcissistic parent that allows
that they're not bad mouthing the narcissisticparent, but they're teaching the children how
to be able to speak about theirhurts and to speak about their uncomfortable feelings
(15:11):
when the narcissist is acting in waysthat are inappropriate. So it's a lot
of modeling and education and emotional receptivitywith our children under those conditions, right
exactly. And I do think it'sso important. And we as moms put
so much pressure on ourselves to makesure that we're doing the very best that
(15:31):
we can for our children and tomake sure they're in the best environment.
And I think if we could justfocus on ourselves and making sure, like
you said, that we give themthe best upbringing that we can and provide
a healthy environment. You know,I think many of us have felt guilt
about staying with somebody who we feel, oh my gosh, how are they
going to influence the children? Andmaybe you're saying, give us ourselves a
(15:54):
little grace and just focus on ourselvesand working with our children. Absolutely,
give yourselves a lot of grace,you know, be kind to yourself,
care for yourself. Your children needyou to be healthy to be able to
navigate this really challenging situation. Right, And you were saying that a telltale
(16:15):
sign of a narcissist is that lackof empathy. What is it that limits
their capacity for empathy? You know, I think that they I don't think
it's impossible for them to develop thatcapacity. I just believe it's underdeveloped.
I think we all have that capacityunless we have a brain injury. But
I think they're missing it because theytoo were never seen. They weren't truly
(16:38):
seen in that deepest, richest vulnerableway. They were seen for what they
can do or provide or become,but not in that really tender way,
you know, as a just alittle vulnerable child. So because of that
missing piece, their empathic awareness isreally very limited if they're at all in
(17:02):
most relationships, right right, Sointeresting, Well, I want to continue
having you on because there's so muchI feel we can talk about. Next
segment, I want to talk toyou about such a thing as healthy narcissism
and what that is, because Ithink we always think about the not so
great part of narcissistic behavior. We'respeaking with Wendy Bihari. She is a
(17:23):
founder and director of the Cognitive TherapyCenter of New Jersey and the Schema Therapy
Institutes of New Jersey, New YorkCity, and DC and the best selling
author of Disarming the Narcissist. I'mMichelle Jerson, the Passport Mommy more coming
up in a few with Wendy Bihari. You're listening to Passport Mommy. I'm
(17:45):
Michelle Jerson, and I'm here withWendy Bihari. She has thirty years of
professional experience and advanced level certifications.She is the founder and director of the
Cognitive Therapy Center of New Jersey andthe Schema Therapy Institutes of New Jersey,
New York City, and d SEE. She has been treating clients, training
professionals, and supervising psychotherapist for morethan twenty years, and she is the
(18:07):
author of an international best selling book, Disarming the narcissist. And I have
to say that I was reading aquote from her or some part of her
book, and she was quoted somewhereI forget right now where because I get
so many emails, but right awaycaught my attention and I said, I
have to speak to this woman.And I feel that so many of us
(18:27):
feel like, hey, maybe thereis a narcissist in our lives, whether
it is apparent, whether it isa partner or a co worker, or
maybe maybe we're questioning ourselves, orthere narcissistic traits within each of us.
And there can be so many differenttypes of narcissism. So I'm really happy
to have Wendy Bahari on the showwith us today. Hi Wendy, Hi
(18:49):
Michelle, I'm delighted to be talkingwith you again. Thank you. So
talk to me about you know,we've been talking about when you're in a
relationship with somebody who's a narcissist.What about if you have a parent who
is a narcissist and you have beenbrought up in a certain way, does
that I mean, I can't imaginehow that affects you into your adult life.
(19:12):
Yes, and so many of thepeople who have consulted with me have
been exactly that situation. Now,I mean, the path can go in
different directions, and again we haveto take into account, you know,
our own personal disposition, how werespond to the universe, the other parent
(19:33):
in our life who was not narcissistic, and how they managed to protect or
secure us. So there's so manyelements. There's no absolute one size fits
all, And I just want tosay that out loud, because tend to
be so many kind of dramatic andunfortunately unclear ways of understanding this in the
(19:56):
popular media. So I think ofit like this, if you have a
narcissistic parent in your life, thenit could be a monkey see monkey do
right. Plenty of the people I'vetreated, mostly men who are narcissistic,
had a narcissistic parent in their life, and so a lot of this is
the imitation of what they've seen,the expectations that were kind of foisted upon
(20:21):
them, you know, legacies ofnarcissism just generations where the cycle doesn't break.
In other cases, it's someone who'shad a narcissistic parent who's grown up
learning that the only way to livein the world safely is to subjugate yourself,
sacrifice your needs, give in,be a people pleaser, and just
keep the peace at all costs,which you know has its own problems later
(20:44):
on in life when you finally hearthat little wake up bell that says,
what about me when it's my turn? Right? And it's true when it'sn't
my turn? And and can youat that point be in other healthy relationships
you yourself? I think in timeand with help and with some work,
some self discovery, self healing.There's so many paths to healing and so
(21:11):
many good therapies to assist with that. I think, yes, I think
you can be. But it doestake this evolving awareness of what you learned,
how that kind of got laid downin your memory, and how you've
drawn from those experiences almost like ablueprint to predict your life going forward.
(21:32):
I mean, we're all at themercy of our memories, and so it's
our senses will detect something that's familiar, and we can find ourselves responding just
like we did when we were veryyoung without even realizing it. We're using
an old survival skill that had valueonce upon a time and is now kind
of defeating us, like giving inor going quiet or going silent right exactly.
(21:57):
And I think that is when peopledo seek out therapy, what advice
do you give them as to finda therapist who really can address what they
need, because I don't think it'sso easy to find that good fit.
That is the best question being agood consumer of therapy, because I find
(22:18):
so many clients will tell me thatthey have felt reluctant to ask questions.
They felt it was intrusive, disrespectful, they didn't have the right to pry.
And I say, this is thebiggest decision, one of the biggest
decisions you'll make, which is disclosingyour life to someone who, if they
look I look at it this way, is privileged to know you in such
(22:41):
a very candid way. You haveevery right to know what are you paying
for this a lot of time andmoney in therapy? Where how what is
their approach to therapy? You don'tneed necessarily all of their credentials, but
you need to know how do theylook at therapy, How do they approach
therapy? What can you expect inthe way of measurable goals? How will
(23:02):
you get there? What needs ofyours will be taken into account? Will
the therapist be active? Will thetherapists be passive? So you know,
really understanding what that approach looks like. And too often I hear things I
don't know. My therapist just saidthey were very eclectic. Doesn't really say
a whole lot about what you canexpect from your therapy journey, right right?
(23:26):
And I think too, you know, we shouldn't be afraid to interview,
like you said, and take thosetwenty minutes or whatever it is that
somebody can give you to really feelthat, you know, is it a
fit? Is it not? Andyou know it If it's not, that's
okay, it's okay. Yeah,I mean, I will say to clients
often, you know, do youhave questions for me? Ask me anything
(23:48):
you'd like to know, because Icertainly want to share my guidelines with you
about how treatment works, my approach, what you can expect, what it
will be like to be sitting intreat with me. They're usually coming to
me for issues of narcissism, eithermyself or because of a partner or a
family member or boss or something,and you know, I tell them about
(24:10):
my experience and what my approach lookslike, what might be effective, what
might get in the way what wemight be up against, you know,
to help them to be able toanticipate this experience and have informed consent going
in right, which I think isso wonderful. And I give people a
lot of credit, especially like yousaid, those who come to you working
(24:32):
on themselves, who believe that theymay have some narcissistic traits, because you
know, I think a lot oftimes, if you're a narcissist, you
don't think that it has to dowith you. Yeah, well, they
almost never think it as to doit right now, And they're usually walking
in because someone has threatened them withan ultimatum, so they rarely come in
(24:52):
voluntarily. Okay, So it's it'snot a real easy happy day when they
come in, which is all themore reason why the therapist needs to be
very transparent, very real about thepurpose and the mission and compliance and cooperation
and responsibility and accountability, all thethings that narcissistic people don't want to hear
(25:14):
but need to hear. Right exactly, So, there is such a thing
as healthy narcissism. Tell me hownarcissism can also be developmentally a reasonable behavior?
Well, there's two ways I wantto answer that. One is the
development you said developmental, So let'sgo there. It's developmentally natural for babies.
(25:37):
You know, you can think ofthem as narcissists. They're so self
absorbed, these little things. Wellthere's anything, you know, they're supposed
to be. They're supposed to becompletely entitled to having nurturing and love and
care and all of that good stuff. Adolescents go through the kind of developmental
imperative. It's all about me.I know everything, I can do it
myself, I know the world.This is, you know, parenting challenge
(26:03):
at its best and worst right whereyou're working without lessons who are going through
this kind of developmental phase of narcissism. And to some degree, there's a
healthiness in wanting to be autonomous andwanting to figure things out and wanting to
be their own person and speak theirtruth. And you know, a good
parent, a healthy parent, figuresout how to continue to set the limits
(26:26):
and how to continue to apply thatthat thing called discipline, which is not
a dirty word right in a waythat's healthy and you know, to really
help them to learn to become goodreciprocating, empathic humans. Big challenge during
that phase of life where there's somuch turbulence going on. But you know,
healthy narcissism is also we see healthynarcissism sometimes in amazing leaders, people
(26:51):
who just have this kind of overthe top self confidence. They are very
self absorbed, but they're self absorbedusually for the greater good. So it's
not about you know, hurting someonecompromising someone else. They may be stepping
over you or around you a lotbecause they're on a mission, but their
mission is usually going to serve agreater purpose. And so you know,
(27:17):
despite their highly self absorbed energy andthey're very super super degree of confidence,
you know, they're not dangerous people. They're not dangerous. There's something healthy
in that because others will benefit fromthis. You know, this this great
dedication to a mission right right.And you know, I think a lot
(27:38):
of times we may be attracted tosomebody who's narcissistic because they, like you
said, they're the life of theparty. They're really fun to be around.
So how does when you are datingand you meet somebody and you're attracted
to them, you say that theyfit together like a lock and key with
somebody who is not narcissistic, Andso how did the two people fit together
(28:03):
in this relationship. Oh yeah,well, you know, think of that
about it, like someone who feelsentitled to have what they want when they
want it, to make the rulesand break the rules, to be right
about everything. Paired with someone whois willing to defer on their decisions,
opinions, wishes and longings, someonewho is willing to give in for the
sake of peace, someone who iswilling to agree because they don't want to
(28:27):
be abandoned or rejected. And you'vegot a great dysfunctional fit. M right.
Yeah. And what do you dowhen you are not that person who
just agrees to agree just to keepthe peace, and you end up fighting
back against that person who is thenarcissist. You have a very volatile relationship.
(28:48):
Oh, you absolutely can have avery volatile relationship or just one that
becomes completely disenfranchised where you're living inseparate camps. That's a lonely place.
And so many will describe the lonelinessof living in a relationship like this where
they feel not only devalued and diminished, they feel completely detached from their partner.
(29:12):
You know, the wall has goneup and there's there's there's no engagement,
right exactly. And then really whatdo you have left? And I
think at that point then the partnersare thinking, okay, are we staying
together for the kids? And itreally is lonely because is somebody who has
(29:32):
this narcissi and personality? Do theyhave empathy? Are they capable of it?
You know, I think they arecapable of it. I just think
it is so underdeveloped. You know, they did not learn I mean,
empathy is a hard skill for mosthumans to really practice. Some people come
by it very naturally, maybe eventoo much of the time, But then
(29:53):
there are others, many who havenot learned really the skill of stepping inside
the experience of another. And it'snot compassion, it's really understanding. I
mean, so let's clarify empathy fromcompassion. It's not feeling sorrow for someone
or you know, feeling so compelledto fix something or care for them.
(30:15):
It's just a deep, deep senseof getting understanding, making sense of what
someone else is experiencing. You don't. You may not even endorse it or
agree with it, but you getit. And I think that you know
that narcissists have a hard time seeingthe experience of another because so often it
leads to this deep sense of shame, like I'm the bad guy, you
(30:38):
know, if I can see yourinner world where you're so disappointed in me
and i'mhappy with me, and youknow, upset by me because I betrayed
you or I lied to you,or I controlled you, or I was
mean to you. If I haveto really look at that and see what
it's like to be you experiencing thosebehaviors, then I'm really the bad guy,
(30:59):
and I can't tolerate that, right, And so they won't look,
they don't look. It's not they'restupid. I mean, they know,
they know that when they've crossed aline, but they quickly convert that into
denial and defensiveness and dismissiveness and devaluation, all those D words. And if
you've lived with this for a periodof time, you can start going into
(31:22):
the well, maybe it is me, because man, he's really charming out
there in the world with everyone else, and other people really like him,
and he's really fun and I meanwe were fun once upon a time,
So maybe it is me, right? Which is I mean? I think
you speak to so many and I'mgoing to say women, just because you
said a lot of the people whocome to you for help our women and
(31:45):
to talk about their partners. Andso we have one more segment left in
the show. I would love tohave you just talk about how do we
confront the narcissist? How do wetalk to them about it? Because I
want to I just want to knowif you are in this relationship and you're
not running out the door, howdo you manage being with somebody who is
(32:07):
narcissistic. We are speaking with WendyBahari and she is just a wealth of
information when it comes to being witha partner, or a family member or
a co worker. She is thebest selling author of Disarming the Narcissist.
I'm Michelle Jerson, the Passport MommyMore coming up in a few you're listening
(32:30):
to Passport Mommy. I'm Michelle Jersonand we're speaking with Wendy Bahari. She
is the international best selling author ofDisarming the Narcissist. And we were just
talking about what do you do whenyou're in a relationship with a narcissist?
Do you run for the hells onceyou discover it or are there ways of
staying in that relationship? Wendy,do you feel that there are ways of
(32:53):
like you say, disarming the narcissistso that you can be in that relationship.
I do shall. I think that, you know, for those who
have been successful, and it isa great privilege to see those who can
actually work through this. Not everyonecan, and it's just not going to
work for everyone for a number ofdifferent reasons, not the least being you
(33:15):
know, the therapist doesn't feel sturdyenough to work with narcissistic people, the
approach isn't good enough, or therejust isn't enough leverage, like there isn't
enough meaningful consequence to keep them doingthe work. It does require professional help.
I mean, unless the narcissist isreally really mild on the spectrum where
some of the self help work,you can really make a difference. You're
(33:37):
not going to make that change,but you might inspire change. You might
have some influence. You might beable to, as I say, drop
the little seeds in the soil,and there may be a small harvest you
know that can benefit you over time. I think the tool called empathic confrontation,
which I write a lot about inmy book, is one of the
(33:58):
most powerful strategies. It's one Iuse in the treatment room, which means
anything you know to be true aboutyour narcissistic other, you first start with
that. You start with what youknow, because you know they are all
really sensitive to feeling criticized, blamed, or judged. You can even start
(34:19):
a simple example is this is notintended to judge you. There's no part
of me that wants you to feelcriticized by me. If you have something
positive to add, you might evensay, in fact, I appreciate the
fact that you know you've been workingreally hard, and you know you've been
doing a lot, you know,lately with the kids, and I appreciate
that. So there's no part ofme here that wants to judge you or
(34:42):
criticize you. But I was reallydisappointed last night when we were out,
and you know, each time Isaid something when we were sitting with our
friends, you corrected me. Itwas like I felt embarrassed, and I
don't even think you were aware ofit. So I'm not faulting you,
like did it intentionally to be nastyto me. I'm just pointing it out
(35:04):
because it was upsetting and I wantto be honest with you, right.
I love that because I do feellike you've said that if you want to
just start an even bigger fire.I mean, I think people who are
in relationships with narcissists know what they'regoing to say that's going to set off
their partner because it doesn't take much, that's right. So it's like,
(35:25):
do you feel like that person iswalking on eggshells that they always have to
like frame their words perfectly in ordernot to have their partner explode. Well,
it's it's an incredibly tedious burden.And I will usually say, you
know, you need to light thetorch and lead the way, but you
can't carry that forever. This can'tbe a way of life. It's I
(35:45):
mean, some people will sign upfor this as a way of life because
it does work at times, butit's it's a lot to carry. And
that's why I say, with therapy, you know, this approach is or
the style of communicating is a waythat can begin to kind of reach it
deep down into the core of thenarcissist where they feel so much shame and
(36:08):
begin to, with the help oftherapy, reorganize the way things are kind
of settled in their experiences so thata partner who's doing this initially doesn't have
to be so careful all the time, because you're absolutely right. Otherwise you're
just walking on eggshells. You're constantlywalking around trying to carefully craft everything that
(36:29):
comes out of your mouth so thatit doesn't land as a criticism. And
even then when you're speaking eloquently,they might take it as a criticism.
So I say to anyone listening,there is always a victory in finding your
voice. There is always a victoryin using your voice. And when you
use it thoughtfully like this, evenif it doesn't land well, hooray for
(36:50):
you because you have become an advocatefor yourself and you can feel that power
within yourself of being that good advocateeven if it doesn't land well with the
narcissist. You if you have lostyour voice over time, you now have
it again, and you have itin a way that doesn't have to be
wearying with so much anger always comingout. Yes, excellent advice, And
(37:15):
I feel like there's so much morewe can talk about how to know when
to finally leave? Can the narcissisreally changed? So I'll have to have
you back on the show another time. In the meantime, where can we
go to get disarming the narcissist?Well, you can go to Amazon,
of course it's available there, butyou can also go to my website and
I have a lot of resources onmy website in addition to ways to get
(37:38):
the book and more information www dotDisarming the Narcissist dot com or simply type
in Wendy Beherry Perfect. Thank youso much. I really appreciate you joining
me today on Passport Mommy, WendyBeharry. It was so great speaking with
you, great being with you too. Thank you, Michelle, my pleasure.
(38:00):
I'm Michelle Jerson the Passport Mommy.Thank you so much for joining me
this week, and I'll talk toyou next time.
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