October 30, 2025 • 44 mins
Most men want deeper connection with their partner but don’t know how to get there - especially after recovering from sex and porn addiction. The harder they try, the more disconnected it feels.
In this episode, Craig talks with Shana James, author of Honest Sex, A Passionate Path to Deepen Connection and Keep Relationships Alive, about building trust, passion, and truth in your relationship. They explore how fear, shame, and performance keep men from being fully present—and how honesty can actually bring more attraction, safety, and fulfillment into your sex life.
If you’ve ever felt stuck in surface-level intimacy or afraid to express what you really want, this conversation will help you understand how honesty can transform everything.
Get Shana’s book Honest Sex: https://amzn.to/47keh3G
Learn more: MindfulHabitHelp.com
Connect with Shana: www.ShanaJamesCoaching.com
About Shana James:
Shana James has spent over 20 years helping men and women create real connections and authentic communication. Through her Man Alive podcast and her book Honest Sex, she helps people drop the masks, tell the truth, and experience relationships that are alive, open, and real.
Takeaway:
Honesty isn’t the end of passion. It’s the beginning of it.
In this episode, Craig talks with Shana James, author of Honest Sex, A Passionate Path to Deepen Connection and Keep Relationships Alive, about building trust, passion, and truth in your relationship. They explore how fear, shame, and performance keep men from being fully present—and how honesty can actually bring more attraction, safety, and fulfillment into your sex life.
If you’ve ever felt stuck in surface-level intimacy or afraid to express what you really want, this conversation will help you understand how honesty can transform everything.
Get Shana’s book Honest Sex: https://amzn.to/47keh3G
Learn more: MindfulHabitHelp.com
Connect with Shana: www.ShanaJamesCoaching.com
About Shana James:
Shana James has spent over 20 years helping men and women create real connections and authentic communication. Through her Man Alive podcast and her book Honest Sex, she helps people drop the masks, tell the truth, and experience relationships that are alive, open, and real.
Takeaway:
Honesty isn’t the end of passion. It’s the beginning of it.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey, what's up everybody.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
This is Craig Para and you are listening to Sex
Afflictions and porn Addictions.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
And today I have a very very special guest.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I'm going to introduce her and we're going to get
into some really important conversations to help you deepen your
connections and keep your relationship alive.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
In fact, that's the subtitle of her book With.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Me Today, I have Shana James. She is a relationship coach.
She's been one for twenty years and humbly discovered the
causes of disconnection and distrust in relationships. And for those
of you listening, you know there's a lot of distrust
in your relationship, so I think you're going to get.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
A lot of value.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
She specializes in supporting people over forties, both dating and
in long term relationships who want to have the best
love and sex of their lives with deeper connection, honest communication,
and lasting passion. She is the creator and host of
the Practicing Love and Man, a live podcast. She has
an awesome ted talk with thousands men tears reveal about
(01:06):
the crisis between men and women, and her book That
I Have right here hones sex a passionate path to
deepen connection and keep relationships alive. She also published Power
and Pleasure, A Man's Guide to becoming a confident and
satisfied lover and leader who doesn't want that. She has
a master's in psychology, as well as disc and Positive
(01:28):
Intelligence certifications. Decades of authentic relating workshops and I would
like to welcome you too the program.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Hello Shana, Hi, Thank you so much for having me here.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
It is an absolute privilege.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
I met Shane everyone at the Big Tenth Summit, that
conference that we went to, and of people who support men,
How did you find yourself, Shana in the men's space?
Speaker 1 (01:56):
How did you get here? Twenty years of experience with men?
Speaker 4 (02:00):
It's so wild.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
In my twenties, I was part of this intentional community
where we were doing authentic relating. We were basically we
decided we were going to be really real with each
other and then stay for whatever the messes or fallouts,
and you know, we did all kinds of crazy things,
Like some of it was just being really honest about
(02:24):
when we pushed each other away, or when we got angry,
or when someone was turned off or things like that.
And you know, there was it was all kinds of Shenanigans.
But anyway, the two of the men who were part
of that community felt like they were getting such amazing
They were growing so much and learning so much about themselves,
and women were more drawn to them than ever because
(02:46):
we were all kind of you know, singlish and dating
at that time. So they started they created this workshop
called the Authentic Man Program, and part of that program
was bringing in a team of women to give men
honest and loving feedback.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
And that just set me.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
You know, I thought I was going to be a
therapist and do more relationship work. But it's similar, right,
what I do is similar. But I decided that I
wanted to be much more human with people and especially men.
I became more of an ally on someone who men
can really learn about women from because I'm willing to
(03:23):
be honest about so many things.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah, I loved your book. It was so.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
First of all, it's important and I'm going to include
the link below. And you know, you pick up a
book like this, you think, okay, we're going to be
talking about sex, you know, right from the beginning, And
it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
That you broke the book.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
There were three sections mature honesty, sex as an expression
of connection practical tools.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Why is mature honesty so important?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
And it's not just the blunt truth that we might
typically think of, And you advocate for a new definition,
and I'd love to hear more about that.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Yeah, well, I call it mature honesty because I believe
and what I've found with my clients and my own
relationships is that honesty really is the foundation of keeping
passion alive if we are not, if we don't know
ourselves and we're not sharing about our desires and our
fears and our upsets, and you know, this thing is
(04:26):
having me feel disconnected from you, and this thing is
having me feel closer to you than we don't really
know each other. So the honesty that many people bring
to their relationships is a little more like you said,
blunt right, it's like, well, I feel like you're being
an asshole, you know.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
I like that is not very helpful. While you might.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Feel that way, I would argue that that's a thought,
not a feeling, but also it's way more helpful to
say something like wow, when you said that, my feelings
got hurt, or when you said that I didn't want
to be as close to you anymore, Like now I
want to go take a break and move away from
you instead of come towards you, right. And so with
that kind of honesty, we really start to know and
(05:12):
trust each other more. And that is a basis of passion,
you know, happening and staying alive. Especially for women, I
would say safety.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
I think it's.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Safety all of us, but safety all of us so important.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
And when there has been betrayal, like there has been
for so many of my clients, Shana, if they did
the honesty thing, if he did the honesty thing right,
we would have issues, but we wouldn't have these issues.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Does that resonate with you totally?
Speaker 4 (05:46):
Totally?
Speaker 3 (05:47):
And I think at times if we are honest, a
relationship ends right, or or transitions or something. But often
times if we can be honest before we blow something up, right,
if we can be honest with a need or a
desire or you know, I really you know, I love
(06:09):
you and there is a kind of sex I really
want to have, or we're not having sex, you know,
very often like can we talk about this, let's let's
figure this out together, right, people being on the same
team and being honest can then you know, stop those
blow ups that happen later down.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
The road, Well, they suppressed, they stuff it down, they
don't express their needs. Their needs don't get met proactively,
they get met reactively. And one of the stories I
liked in the book was the water bottle example, and
I thought that was a really good example of a
(06:50):
couple arguing about something completely different than what's on the
surface layer.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
So can you tell me more about the surface.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Layer arguments and what's what's really going on underneath? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (07:05):
And I learned this a lot through my parents to
where And there's a section in the book like it's
not about the garbage, the laundry, or even the money
or you know, all the things. It's like we fight
about these surface level things and underneath what tends to
be going on is I don't feel supported, I don't
feel loved, I don't feel understood, I don't feel met.
(07:30):
And it's a lot less vulnerable to focus on the laundry,
the garbage, the all of that stuff, right than it
is to really be vulnerable and say I don't feel loved,
I don't feel known, And it's it's more, you know,
it's more vulnerable to put out there are real desires
(07:52):
because they could be rejected than it is to just
complain or bitch or nag.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
So I really I'm.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
A big proponent of vulnerability, and you know, it can
feel like you're going to die.
Speaker 4 (08:06):
There are times.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Where I've sat there and about to say something and
I'm like, oh, I feel like I'm gonna puke.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
I'm so nervous, I can't get this out right. So
I'm not saying it's easy.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
But what I am saying is that kind of communication
creates connection with the right person. Right If your partner
happens to be someone who isn't the right person or
is not willing to be real and honest with you,
then that's another thing.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Now, what do you hear from?
Speaker 2 (08:35):
So here's a personal example, Shana that I remember a
long time ago. Maybe we had just gotten married, Michelle
and I were being intimate, and I had done something
it was the position that made her uncomfortable, that made
me uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yep I shut down.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Like I received that as because of my bro YEP.
I received that as the ultimate abandonment, and that, among
other things, became the justification in the rationale that I
would use to justify my behavior, which is completely misplaced.
And I'm not I'm just stating what is not not,
(09:18):
but putting it out in the open.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
With your clients who have strayed, who have been.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Dishonest, what reasons do they give you or what justifications
have you heard in your practice?
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Yeah, there are so many. Right, I'm not I'm not
being met by my partner. My needs aren't important.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
She doesn't respect the hard work, my contributions. I hear
that one a lot.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
She takes for granted, me working like a savage to
you know, provide, provide.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
Yes, that's such an important one because I think so
many men I've worked with don't feel appreciated and right,
like you said, it's a it's an affront if a
woman wants more of this deep or emotional connection or
kind of more loving, tender connection, you know, it can
(10:13):
feel like what you want that like I'm doing. I'm
doing so much for you. Why is it that you
want something else? And like you said, I it's taken
me decades to hear someone say, especially in the middle
of sex, Hey, you know, could you try something different
or could you do this in a way you know
(10:34):
that doesn't really feel good? Like I still feel that
zing or that burn inside of me. Of like, oh God,
I'm bad or I'm wrong or I did something wrong.
And the more we can just notice, Okay, that's happening
inside me, that doesn't actually mean what I think it means. Right,
this is this is actually if we have a growth
(10:55):
mindset here, This is me working through and releasing some
of that old pain, an old wounding, as opposed to
getting protected, getting defensive, blaming it on my partner and
then you know, blowing things up or creating something else
to create a lot more distance.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
And this isn't just for the men, though, is it?
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Because one of the things you said about your partner,
you're not who you think you are, and your partner
is not who they think they are.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Can you elaborate who you think they are?
Speaker 2 (11:31):
And the theme that came to mind is one of
the most important moments in my relationship with Michelle was
when we got away from right and wrong and when
she got away from right and wrong even though she
was right, you know logistically or there was great advice. Yes,
(11:53):
it was an owning that this isn't being received.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
How can I go about it differently? But what did
you mean by that you don't know who you are?
And You're not.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Who you think you are, and neither is your partner
is Basically like, so, we have all these stories, and
we have these assumptions, we have these ideas, we have
identities that we take ourselves to be, and so, you know,
I might take myself to be this caring, loving woman,
and when my partner responds to me as though I'm
not that, it can create rage and defensiveness and like,
(12:26):
how dare you? And how you know I can't be
with you if you don't see me this way? And
then vice versa. Right, if I have these stories and
I think I know my partner, I'm going to and
I hold them like in this box, like you don't
you don't care about me, you don't understand me, all
these things. We then relate to them as though that's true,
(12:51):
and we continue this dynamic as opposed to the vulnerable
part would be, Hey, I'm not really feeling understood in
this moment? Can we try that again?
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Right?
Speaker 4 (13:03):
Everybody?
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Not everybody, but oftentimes in a relationship, especially when we're struggling,
we tend to like layer on top of each other
assumptions and judgments and analysis.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
And trying to be right.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
And when we let go of one of us has
to be right and one of us has to be wrong,
even like you said, even if we know one of
us might be right in a certain moment. And the
more humble you get, the more we can admit when
someone else is right. But if we're trying to get
that higher position of I'm right and you're wrong, it
just kills the connection.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Yeah, it just it creates this power dynamic.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
And typically the profile of the man Shana is my clients,
they're leaders on the outside, but at home feel completely disempowered.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Is that something you see in your work too?
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Yes, And I often work with men to find and
I imagine you might do this too.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
I'm curious.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
But it's like to find that sovereign self right, the
strength or that inner self love and the knowing like
I am good, I am worthy, because it's relationship is
the hardest place to find that and know that because
(14:23):
we're in this dynamic, especially if we're feeling nagged or
attacked or not appreciated or not understood, right, it challenges
all those old wounds that we've had with our parents
and our teachers and all of that. So what I
see is that when a man is truly centered in
(14:44):
himself and he actually knows that he's an amazing man.
There's nothing he then needs to prove or defend. That
doesn't mean he can't, you know, stand up for himself
and be strong and clear and hey, this doesn't work
for me, and you know, I'm not gonna I'm not
going to tolerate that or put up with this, or
we need to find a different way here. But it's
(15:04):
not coming from a fuck you kind of a place,
or you're doing this to me, or there's much more
of a how do we figure this out together with
curiosity and compassion for each other.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
And when you think about this, moving from conventional honesty
to radical honesty, it literally is one of the most
difficult things that we're going to do in our lives.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
As people because the barriers are.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Our trauma, are programming and everything else that's getting in
the way.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
Right, Yes, And the word radical to me, I don't know,
it scares me a little bit. So that's why I
use mature honesty.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Because mature mature Yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Radical honesty, I don't necessarily believe that every single thing
needs to be said, and radical honesty to me doesn't
maybe in the book or how they describe it.
Speaker 4 (16:01):
It's like there's a there's a how you bring it.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
But if sometimes I think radical honesty inspires are like,
I'm just gonna say it, and it doesn't matter how
I say it, right, But to me, it's very important
that we actually bring that maturity and that vulnerability as
opposed to blaming, shaming or attacking, which could also be
called honesty.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
I like mature because of the point you made around radical,
I have to share every thought.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
No you do not, and nor should you.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
And that's a terrible dynamic to be stuck in. And
uh yeah, I think my listeners and get a lot
of value learning about mature communication.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Now what do oh the water bottle? Tell me about
the water bottle? Because I think this is a great.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Example of a surface level connection. And I love these
simple examples that really illustrate what's going and what clients
called shanda like they have these you know, I have
them track their triggers, and they'll track a dumb trigger
like I got up set over the water bottle.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
I'm like, that's not done right, No, No, this is okay.
This is so good.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
We're gonna because it's innocent enough it doesn't have all
the baggage of everything else to peel away the layers
of the onions.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
So give me a summer to that story and why
it was so important.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Yeah, the summary of that story is we were about
to go to Burning Man, which is this festival in
the desert that's all about survival. And you know, if
you're not hydrated, right, you things go bad. I almost
I got dehydrated there once and it was it was
not pretty.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
Yeah, you can die, you can die, right.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
And so my then husband was very focused on he
wanted a new water bottle because his didn't have a
seal that he trusted and it leaked and whatever.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
And I was very focused on.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Part of Burning Man is you know, you don't buy
unnecessary shit. We're trying to get away from the corporations and.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
Consumerism and all that plastics and all.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
You know, there's tons of plastic in the ocean and
it's in our.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
Water now and blah blah blah.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
So that was like, oh, we were not mature enough
in that moment to say, hey, you are valuing this.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
I am valuing this. How do we want to solve this?
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Right?
Speaker 3 (18:22):
We didn't have to have an answer in that moment,
but it was more like, are we willing to look
at this together from being on the same team as
opposed to from you know, dueling teams where we're duking it.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Out, and what was the So for you the what
were the deeper underlying issues for you and for your
partner at the time.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Yeah, So for me, the underlying issue one was money.
I didn't want to spend money, you know, I was
trying to save or trying to be more frugal. And
the other was the environment and really wanting to not
you know, have buy more shit that destroys our world.
And for him it was really more that survival piece,
(19:08):
which I can you know, I've acknowledged. Looking back, I'm like, Okay,
that makes so much sense. And maybe maybe we could
have come up with a win win. Maybe we could
have borrowed someone else's water bottle that had a seal,
or maybe right, I didn't even think of that option
until now twenty something years later. There are all these
different possibilities for coming together when we're not attacking each
(19:31):
other or thinking that our way is right and we
have to fight till the death, you know, to make
it happen.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
And so so how can couples learn to see what's
under the surface during conflicts.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
That I feel like, I guess I asked a question.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
I want to preface it is back to this being
one of the most challenging and rewarding things.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
That people will do is figuring that out.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
But what are some practical things that come up when
you hear that.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
One tool that I find incredibly helpful and then we'll
talk about what's you know underneath that, but is to
really sit down and say, here's what's most vulnerable for
me about this. Right, we're in the middle of a situation,
we're disagreeing, we're having an all out lah you this,
you know whatever, and it's like, okay, if we can
actually pause. In my book, I call it the race
(20:23):
to vulnerability. So you know, in a way, whoever gets
to vulnerable first wins, not that you have to focus
on winning, but usually it's like I'm going to win
the fight by being more you know, stronger protective. This way,
you win the fight by being actually more vulnerable first.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
And so just that and I love that curveball.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
By the way, Sorry for the interruption, But if there's
a chance, if there's a part of my brain that
can anchor into winning being more vulnerable.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
I will show her, I'll teach her a thing or two,
and I.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Yes, I know even just by saying, like, what's vulnerable
about this for me?
Speaker 4 (21:00):
Is now?
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Then we go back to the work that you and
I do right where we support people to find that
place inside where they love themselves and they know that
they're good innately and they don't have to prove that.
Because if it's really hard for you to share something vulnerable,
(21:22):
then we have to get underneath why Because most times
when people say to me, I want to say this,
but I don't know if you know, is this the
right words?
Speaker 4 (21:30):
Is this the right way to say it?
Speaker 3 (21:32):
I'm like your words are perfect, right, Like, there's nothing
wrong with your words. Why does it feel hard for
you to say? Then we get into some of those
those deeper things.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Yeah, relationship patterns learned in childhood, our patchment style, our traumas,
all of that stuff is underneath this mature is thwarting
mature honesty and.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
It's yeah, yeah, yeah, good, good, good good.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
That was really great. The next question I wanted to
ask you was you talked about what is the importance
of non violent communication to you and to your.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Clients, Well, what is it?
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Yeah, non violent communication is really about a similar thing
that I talk about with mature honesty, which is owning
this is this is what's.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
Going on for me. This is a need I have.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
This is an emotion I'm feeling right, this is what's
happening over here. It's my side of the street. I
had a partner once who you know. I was like, well,
maybe you think this and you feel that and blah blah,
and he was like, Okay, that's my side of the street.
Like can you go back to your side of the
street and tell me how are you feeling? What do
you need? Because oftentimes if we don't know what we
(22:55):
need or feel, we can hide behind or we just
I don't know. For me, I get to get into
that fluster of like the fears about the other person,
would you know, spin And that's what I would focus on.
But then if I could come back and say, oh,
I need a moment or I need you know, I
need us to be loving with each other, it's too
(23:17):
hard for my nervous system when we walk in the
house and we like, you know, we're already at each other.
I need us to slow down or any of those things.
If we can start to own that, you know, that
is where A we start to create this upward spiral,
and b we're not going down the downward spiral, which
(23:37):
the gravitational poll right of the downward spiral of being
violent with each other.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
It's strong.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
So then we have longer you know, resentments and just
I don't want to because you didn't, and it's it's
hard to get out of that. So if we can
either neutralize that or bring it into that vulnerability, then
we're not sucked into that black hole.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Which is so important because one of the things that
you do is broaden the concept of sex beyond the
cultural cliches. And when I think about our programming on issues,
if I had to make a list of where historically
(24:22):
we've received as a society the worst programming like traumatic
the absence of any program that neglect is produces abuse
like results.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Tell me more about that.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Okay, So, as I was in my twenties, I was
studying TNTRA and things that were like more meditative it
was called our gasmic meditation and all kinds of things
where I realized I was raised with this idea that
sex is intercourse, and sex is always you know, or
(25:02):
at least it's always with our genitals, but mostly it's intercourse.
And then the goal is like to get to climax,
and you know, we got to get If we're not
getting to that end place, then somehow we're doing something wrong.
And I think what I started to see is there
are many, many, many ways to have sex. And actually
(25:22):
that's been really helpful for me in this paramenopausal phase.
And for many of the listeners might have a woman
in their lives who things start to hurt and they
feel different, and penetration isn't always exciting anymore because it
can be uncomfortable or even painful. And so when we
expand the definition of sex to as to people together,
(25:46):
we are going to connect with as much of ourselves
as possible in as pleasure of pleasurable of a way
as possible, intimate of a way as possible. And I
talk about how sex, I describe like one dimensional sex
versus four dimensional sex, or I call it fast food
sex versus gourmet sex. One dimensional is like, okay, we're
(26:08):
doing a physical thing here, and then the gourmet or
the four dimensional is this is physical. It's also emotional,
it's also energetic. It's also for some people even spiritual.
And then we could quadruple that by saying, you can
actually learn to feel your partner's pleasure in your own body,
so you're no longer just feeling your own pleasure. You're
(26:29):
actually feeling their pleasure and your pleasure and building on that.
And that can all happen by sitting in front of
each other and looking into each other's eyes, or touching
fingertips or kissing right, like, to me, that is all sex.
And when you're not trying to get to this one
specific way of experiencing sex.
Speaker 4 (26:52):
You win a lot more.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
To your point about winning, right, it's like, yeah, and
because so many people have this idea, Yeah, this is
what it's supposed to be, and then we lose the
pleasure that can happen in all of those moments together, and.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
It doesn't have to be. You know, a guy hears
this and they.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Might think, Okay, yeah, we're talking harlequin romance novel. Does
the dew have to be dripping off the peach at
the break of dawn as we're you know, on on
the on the on the hill. I know it doesn't
mean that. But can you unpack that a little bit.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
What you just said, because yes, I can imagine I
hate certain especially men, hearing that a just like what
come on, I, how do I want?
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Is a scary word, as you know for us guys, right,
like intimacy, like some some of that clients and even
me his story, like there's this visual because there's so
much around touch. There's so much damage around touch and
connection and and and being honest and and you know
you hear a word like that, so yeah, no, take
(27:55):
it away.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
He help us understand that.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
I say that I realize my partner and I have
created the a series of dates where each one of
us gets to choose what we want or how we
want to you know, be touched, or how we want to.
Speaker 4 (28:07):
Have sex or things like that.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
It's been so hard for us to you know, to
say like, oh, this is what I want.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
So it's not easy.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
But what I will say is one of the dates
we had, my partner and I had sex, but also
before that, I was just massaging him and loving him
and like putting some attention on different parts of his body.
And it was sometimes gentle touch or sometimes a little
bit more touch that kind of had, you know, more
of a rousal touch. But he said after the whole thing,
(28:37):
he was like, you know, the sex was amazing, but
the thing that actually blew me away was I've never
felt loved like that, never felt cared for like that.
And so it's vulnerable, and like you're saying, if you
have a history of touch that was abusive or any
(28:58):
of those things, right, it's it could up even more
than having sex where you kind of get to zone
out a little bit or distance a little bit. Yeah,
so you know we have to watch out for that
and get some support when that happens, like especially from you.
But there's just so many different ways to experience pleasure.
(29:19):
And I think part of as I get older, it's
so helpful because you know, especially in a woman's body,
like I said, it's changing all the time, and there's
all kinds of pain and struggles that I've been going through.
And if my partner wasn't so loving and supportive and
(29:39):
open to like, well, let's try this. It's not about
like let's try something that's second rate or doesn't feel good, right.
Speaker 4 (29:46):
There are things that we've been able to.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
Do or ways that I've been able to create pleasure
for him where he's like, holy shit, I never even
knew that could happen because the focus has been so
much on that, you know, genital intercourse.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Well, and it's the.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
That that foundation of non physical intimacy that sets up
this this new way of thinking about sex which require
which you.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Know, demands that vulnerability.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
It's like you're no longer painting with one brush and
one color. Oh nice, you now have a uh, you know,
a number of different palette yeah, to choose from around touch.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
And so, as you.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Know, I was touched as a kid, there's a part
of me that's been having some reactions. And and because
the priests who uh who oversaw us was arrested for
child molestation and so I've been digging into that recently.
And despite being a quote unquote sex addict, one of
the things that I realized that I was completely incapable
(30:56):
of experiencing even touch. I could have sex with Michelle, yes,
but the notion of it being anything other than a
build up of that build up of that energy, a
release of that energy, was completely foreign. And one of
the pieces of advice we got at that low point.
And I want to get your thoughts on this was
(31:19):
we literally started touching with closed on one time, I
would rub hands.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
And if feet were safe, they were for us feet.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
It was literally the you know, long sleeve shirt, jeans on,
lying there, super casual, you.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Know, maybe even the TV's on in the beginning, you know.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Just to create this casual and safety and touching hands
and then forearms and then biceps and then shoulders and
then a D shirt on and then a pair of
shorts on and in building on that was so so
so important to us. And I want to hear your
(32:00):
thoughts on that, yeah, and I'm.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
So I'm just so grateful that you share your story, right,
And the thought that came out for me was if
we're okay with whatever arises from that, then we heal.
So like maybe it brings up tears, or maybe it
brings up right the grief or this anger or frustration,
(32:28):
or like if we can actually allow that and be
okay with that. And that's one of the things that
I think sex is.
Speaker 4 (32:34):
Amazing for when we when we get to a.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Level where we're not freaking out by the other's emotions
or upsets or whatever, then there's healing that happens and
we can create a very intentional context, like Okay, I'm
going to touch your hands for the next couple minutes,
and if you're willing right, you could just show me
or express or let the tears flow if they come,
(33:01):
or maybe you're gonna laugh, or maybe you're gonna yawn,
or maybe you're gonna like make a like who knows,
but trusting that our bodies can start to unwind and
release some of these things. And I think there's nothing
more sacred than doing it with a partner.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Yeah, I was.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
So blessed that Michelle had that patience and that empathy
and commitment to getting results that's gonna She became very,
very practical after my low point, which forced her to
step out of some of her patterns that she.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Was part of.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Yes, but that that that that laid a foundation because
I remember sitting there with the person I love, the
person that I wanted to be with, being so like
like it was different than times before my rock bottom,
because like you said, I can disassociate, I can disconnect,
(33:56):
I can think of something else, Like you know, there
was a compartmentalization contest. I think I'd be you know,
like an influencer, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Like, I just did it so so.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
So well, and I remember being so uncomfortable, so afraid,
so anxious, but being able to share that without judgment
and return without you shouldn't feel that way without It
was really that safety that I feel really confident is
(34:30):
one of the reasons why we're still going strong because
of that choice.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Yeah. And she's such a gift, right because yes, to
I know the clients you work with too, and to
their partners, because she can actually help people see how
she did that, you know, especially for the women, like wow,
you it can feel, I think like you're betraying yourself
(34:57):
if trust has been broken or something like that has
happened for you to show up with love and compassion
and empathy. But she found a way to show up
for you in that and also not betray herself, right,
like stay very true to herself.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Yeah. Yeah, it was absolutely you know, blessed. It's why
I'm still here, all right. I got a few more
questions for you, Shana, And this is great. So how
do you help clients move through shame into open expression
of their desires or fears? This? I like this, I
(35:36):
like that. I'm afraid of this. This is so hard
tell me.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
Your well, oftentimes I do. I call it human practice,
you know, So oftentimes with clients, we I help them
by slowing down and you know, starting to look at
like what excites you, what has turned you on in
your life? Or sometimes we go no offense pun you know,
through the back door, which is like what do you
(36:02):
not want? What does not turn you on? And then
oftentimes what I'll do, especially with men as a woman,
I get to kind of play the stand in. So
if they're feeling hesitant or like, oh, I don't know
if I could say that out loud, right, We'll slow
it down and practice together and I'll have them say
it and then maybe just pause and feel like you
(36:26):
said some of those feelings that come up, and then
I can guide them through that so that it doesn't
you know, the stakes are a lot lower with me
than they are with a partner, right, and there's a
lot more there's there's anxiety or anxiousness or whatever that
can happen saying it to me because I'm a woman.
But it's not like, oh, I'm going to lose my
(36:47):
relationship if I say this thing. So as we practice
and as it becomes more natural and as we sometimes
look at like, well.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
Why would that be a bad thing?
Speaker 3 (36:59):
You know, why would there be something wrong with you
if you did want that, And we go back into
some of those old stories and clear that up, then
it becomes much more comfortable to bring it to your partner.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
I love that technique. I have something similar. I call
it scripting, and because when they say it and guys,
you know, this is great advice.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
And you can do this in front of a mirror.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
If you have something you want to say, practice saying
it because you have been trained in conditioned to get
defensive and shut down.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
You got that down pat This is.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
A new skill, a new tool, a new language, and
new words that you're not used to putting together. So
I love that technique. So your your ted talk is
so powerful. What is the one thing you wish every
man heard about his emotional world and how it impacts
his relationship? If you had to pick one, and I didn't,
(37:51):
We didn't plan this, so I know I'm putting you
on the spot and I'm a friend, so I feel bad.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
If nothing else, it's the one thing.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
The one thing that comes up is that vulnerability is
human and that most men are shamed out of the
just very human things you feel, the fear, the upset,
the grief, the all of it, right, the unknown, the uncertainty.
(38:18):
But just if you start to really get oh, this
is a part of being human. I am innately good,
I am innately lovable, right, So does it takes.
Speaker 4 (38:29):
Some work to get there?
Speaker 1 (38:32):
Yes? It does.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
But then I can be vulnerable in front of another
person who's attacking my vulnerability and know that it's about them,
it's not about me, and it's like, I'm sorry you
feel that way, or yes, I can see how you
might think I'm weak right now, but actually I know
I'm strong, and I know I'm a good person, and
(38:53):
I also know I'm scared in this moment.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
And that's why it's so important for men to do
the work on themselves. They have to, right, I mean
a lot of guys they get caught. They jump into
couple's therapy and that's you know again, I only see
the cases where that fails, But it fails miserably because
each person, if they did some of this foundational work,
(39:17):
they'd be coming together in so much of a better place.
And it's really almost unfair for the couple's counselor to
It's a lot, it's a big ask, and very few
counselors have the skill to be able to fix both
in the relationship at the same time. Like that lady
on TV who's got that show, who's the Master? I
forget her name right now, she's very very good. They
(39:40):
do that couple. Yeah, they have people and they do
it live and it's all right. So what this was
the other thing that I thought was really interesting for
men working on themselves. How can they balance strength and softness?
Speaker 3 (40:00):
Yeah, and you can think of softness however you want
to think about it, right, It might be openness, it
might be open heartedness, it might be that kind of vulnerability.
I think remembering that vulnerability is actually a strength is amazing, right,
because there are men I've worked with who would like,
I would jump out of an airplane.
Speaker 4 (40:19):
Before I, you know, really want to share my vulnerable
desires with my partner.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
And when I think about a man jumping out of
an airplane, I'm like, God, that takes a lot of
strength or a lot of hutzba, you know. But when
you think that the vulnerability is even scarier to remember, Wow,
it's actually strong to be able to love myself and
stand up for myself and still, you know, show these
(40:47):
parts that I'm afraid I'm going to be rejected by
or rejected for.
Speaker 4 (40:51):
So yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
Think reframing that as vulnerability as a strength is a
really powerful move.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Yeah, I agree. I think it's one of the most powerful.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
One last thing before we wrap up, is there anything
that we and and people listening? There's so my list
of questions is obscene for Shana one because we became
friends her, Michelle and I and we've been really diving
into her stuff, and so I would love to have
(41:23):
you back. And what I like to do is my
clients listen to these podcasts and then they follow up
with questions and.
Speaker 3 (41:30):
Then yeah, yeah, yeah, love to answer questions.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
And I look forward to that.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
But what's is there anything you want to leave my
audience with, Shana?
Speaker 1 (41:39):
This is so great, so honored to get to know you.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
I think what I would like to leave your audience
with is, you know, some people stay together, some people separate.
I think, right the ideally if you can, I think
what you support people to do is right to weather
this storm and and stick with it. I just I
(42:04):
want to give the context that if you can see
this in terms of growth, whether it's emotional growth, spiritual growth.
You know that everything that's happening is a chance to
grow and to learn to love better and to learn
to be loved more. And yes, at times we wish
(42:28):
it didn't have to happen through so much trauma or
so much challenge, but it's another way of maturing, right
when we really like get rid of the fantasies of oh,
it's going to be perfect.
Speaker 4 (42:39):
And it's going to be hot, and it's going to be.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
This, going to be that, and you know and and
I don't know, so I guess what I'm saying is
when you can create the context around this that Okay,
this is what's happening, I am going to face the
reality and I'm going to do, you know, whatever I
can to learn the lessons is I think of it
like as a soul curriculum. Right, I'm going to learn
(43:04):
the lessons that when I'm on my deathbed, I look
back and I feel proud of myself because, right, I
learned to open my heart, or I learned to be
more generous, or I learned to receive love. That's a
really big one for men too. Yeah, and that to
not make yourself wrong right, not you know, have to
(43:24):
make your partner wrong, but also if you can let
go of making yourself wrong and just realize, all right,
this was the hand you were delt, you're doing. You
did the best you could and now you actually, you know,
get to step into being who you're.
Speaker 4 (43:38):
Proud to be.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Yeah, that privilege we have of you know, not working
eighteen hours in a mine.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
You know, we can work on ourselves.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
We can learn and grow from our mistakes and and
and reach out to people like you and everybody.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
Here's in me. But here's the book.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
I'm honest sex a passionate paths to deep in connection
and keep relationships alive. I'm going to have this in
the notes, and I'm also going to have Shana's website
and anything else she wants to share with you guys.
But just if you're listening and you're not inclined to
click blow Shana James Coaching, It's s h A. N. A.
(44:19):
James Coaching all one word dot com and please please
please check her out.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Shana, thank you so much for being on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
Thank you so much for having me, and I so.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Look forward to you having you back. So thank you
everybody for listening. It's me Craig Parra, founder of the
Mindful Habit System. Embrace your power of choice and feed
the right wolf inside you. Thanks for listening. Make it great.
Life is too short to suck. Have a great day, everybody,
Bye bye, thank you. Yes, how did you feel about that? Good?
Speaker 4 (44:53):
Do you want to stop it or keep it going?
Speaker 3 (44:54):
It looks like it's done.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
Let me stop it right now.
Hey, what's up everybody.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
This is Craig Para and you are listening to Sex
Afflictions and porn Addictions.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
And today I have a very very special guest.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I'm going to introduce her and we're going to get
into some really important conversations to help you deepen your
connections and keep your relationship alive.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
In fact, that's the subtitle of her book With.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Me Today, I have Shana James. She is a relationship coach.
She's been one for twenty years and humbly discovered the
causes of disconnection and distrust in relationships. And for those
of you listening, you know there's a lot of distrust
in your relationship, so I think you're going to get.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
A lot of value.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
She specializes in supporting people over forties, both dating and
in long term relationships who want to have the best
love and sex of their lives with deeper connection, honest communication,
and lasting passion. She is the creator and host of
the Practicing Love and Man, a live podcast. She has
an awesome ted talk with thousands men tears reveal about
(01:06):
the crisis between men and women, and her book That
I Have right here hones sex a passionate path to
deepen connection and keep relationships alive. She also published Power
and Pleasure, A Man's Guide to becoming a confident and
satisfied lover and leader who doesn't want that. She has
a master's in psychology, as well as disc and Positive
(01:28):
Intelligence certifications. Decades of authentic relating workshops and I would
like to welcome you too the program.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Hello Shana, Hi, Thank you so much for having me here.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
It is an absolute privilege.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
I met Shane everyone at the Big Tenth Summit, that
conference that we went to, and of people who support men,
How did you find yourself, Shana in the men's space?
Speaker 1 (01:56):
How did you get here? Twenty years of experience with men?
Speaker 4 (02:00):
It's so wild.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
In my twenties, I was part of this intentional community
where we were doing authentic relating. We were basically we
decided we were going to be really real with each
other and then stay for whatever the messes or fallouts,
and you know, we did all kinds of crazy things,
Like some of it was just being really honest about
(02:24):
when we pushed each other away, or when we got angry,
or when someone was turned off or things like that.
And you know, there was it was all kinds of Shenanigans.
But anyway, the two of the men who were part
of that community felt like they were getting such amazing
They were growing so much and learning so much about themselves,
and women were more drawn to them than ever because
(02:46):
we were all kind of you know, singlish and dating
at that time. So they started they created this workshop
called the Authentic Man Program, and part of that program
was bringing in a team of women to give men
honest and loving feedback.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
And that just set me.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
You know, I thought I was going to be a
therapist and do more relationship work. But it's similar, right,
what I do is similar. But I decided that I
wanted to be much more human with people and especially men.
I became more of an ally on someone who men
can really learn about women from because I'm willing to
(03:23):
be honest about so many things.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah, I loved your book. It was so.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
First of all, it's important and I'm going to include
the link below. And you know, you pick up a
book like this, you think, okay, we're going to be
talking about sex, you know, right from the beginning, And
it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
That you broke the book.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
There were three sections mature honesty, sex as an expression
of connection practical tools.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Why is mature honesty so important?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
And it's not just the blunt truth that we might
typically think of, And you advocate for a new definition,
and I'd love to hear more about that.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Yeah, well, I call it mature honesty because I believe
and what I've found with my clients and my own
relationships is that honesty really is the foundation of keeping
passion alive if we are not, if we don't know
ourselves and we're not sharing about our desires and our
fears and our upsets, and you know, this thing is
(04:26):
having me feel disconnected from you, and this thing is
having me feel closer to you than we don't really
know each other. So the honesty that many people bring
to their relationships is a little more like you said,
blunt right, it's like, well, I feel like you're being
an asshole, you know.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
I like that is not very helpful. While you might.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Feel that way, I would argue that that's a thought,
not a feeling, but also it's way more helpful to
say something like wow, when you said that, my feelings
got hurt, or when you said that I didn't want
to be as close to you anymore, Like now I
want to go take a break and move away from
you instead of come towards you, right. And so with
that kind of honesty, we really start to know and
(05:12):
trust each other more. And that is a basis of passion,
you know, happening and staying alive. Especially for women, I
would say safety.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
I think it's.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Safety all of us, but safety all of us so important.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
And when there has been betrayal, like there has been
for so many of my clients, Shana, if they did
the honesty thing, if he did the honesty thing right,
we would have issues, but we wouldn't have these issues.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Does that resonate with you totally?
Speaker 4 (05:46):
Totally?
Speaker 3 (05:47):
And I think at times if we are honest, a
relationship ends right, or or transitions or something. But often
times if we can be honest before we blow something up, right,
if we can be honest with a need or a
desire or you know, I really you know, I love
(06:09):
you and there is a kind of sex I really
want to have, or we're not having sex, you know,
very often like can we talk about this, let's let's
figure this out together, right, people being on the same
team and being honest can then you know, stop those
blow ups that happen later down.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
The road, Well, they suppressed, they stuff it down, they
don't express their needs. Their needs don't get met proactively,
they get met reactively. And one of the stories I
liked in the book was the water bottle example, and
I thought that was a really good example of a
(06:50):
couple arguing about something completely different than what's on the
surface layer.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
So can you tell me more about the surface.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Layer arguments and what's what's really going on underneath? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (07:05):
And I learned this a lot through my parents to
where And there's a section in the book like it's
not about the garbage, the laundry, or even the money
or you know, all the things. It's like we fight
about these surface level things and underneath what tends to
be going on is I don't feel supported, I don't
feel loved, I don't feel understood, I don't feel met.
(07:30):
And it's a lot less vulnerable to focus on the laundry,
the garbage, the all of that stuff, right than it
is to really be vulnerable and say I don't feel loved,
I don't feel known, And it's it's more, you know,
it's more vulnerable to put out there are real desires
(07:52):
because they could be rejected than it is to just
complain or bitch or nag.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
So I really I'm.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
A big proponent of vulnerability, and you know, it can
feel like you're going to die.
Speaker 4 (08:06):
There are times.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Where I've sat there and about to say something and
I'm like, oh, I feel like I'm gonna puke.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
I'm so nervous, I can't get this out right. So
I'm not saying it's easy.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
But what I am saying is that kind of communication
creates connection with the right person. Right If your partner
happens to be someone who isn't the right person or
is not willing to be real and honest with you,
then that's another thing.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Now, what do you hear from?
Speaker 2 (08:35):
So here's a personal example, Shana that I remember a
long time ago. Maybe we had just gotten married, Michelle
and I were being intimate, and I had done something
it was the position that made her uncomfortable, that made
me uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yep I shut down.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Like I received that as because of my bro YEP.
I received that as the ultimate abandonment, and that, among
other things, became the justification in the rationale that I
would use to justify my behavior, which is completely misplaced.
And I'm not I'm just stating what is not not,
(09:18):
but putting it out in the open.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
With your clients who have strayed, who have been.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Dishonest, what reasons do they give you or what justifications
have you heard in your practice?
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Yeah, there are so many. Right, I'm not I'm not
being met by my partner. My needs aren't important.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
She doesn't respect the hard work, my contributions. I hear
that one a lot.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
She takes for granted, me working like a savage to
you know, provide, provide.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
Yes, that's such an important one because I think so
many men I've worked with don't feel appreciated and right,
like you said, it's a it's an affront if a
woman wants more of this deep or emotional connection or
kind of more loving, tender connection, you know, it can
(10:13):
feel like what you want that like I'm doing. I'm
doing so much for you. Why is it that you
want something else? And like you said, I it's taken
me decades to hear someone say, especially in the middle
of sex, Hey, you know, could you try something different
or could you do this in a way you know
(10:34):
that doesn't really feel good? Like I still feel that
zing or that burn inside of me. Of like, oh God,
I'm bad or I'm wrong or I did something wrong.
And the more we can just notice, Okay, that's happening
inside me, that doesn't actually mean what I think it means. Right,
this is this is actually if we have a growth
(10:55):
mindset here, This is me working through and releasing some
of that old pain, an old wounding, as opposed to
getting protected, getting defensive, blaming it on my partner and
then you know, blowing things up or creating something else
to create a lot more distance.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
And this isn't just for the men, though, is it?
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Because one of the things you said about your partner,
you're not who you think you are, and your partner
is not who they think they are.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Can you elaborate who you think they are?
Speaker 2 (11:31):
And the theme that came to mind is one of
the most important moments in my relationship with Michelle was
when we got away from right and wrong and when
she got away from right and wrong even though she
was right, you know logistically or there was great advice. Yes,
(11:53):
it was an owning that this isn't being received.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
How can I go about it differently? But what did
you mean by that you don't know who you are?
And You're not.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Who you think you are, and neither is your partner
is Basically like, so, we have all these stories, and
we have these assumptions, we have these ideas, we have
identities that we take ourselves to be, and so, you know,
I might take myself to be this caring, loving woman,
and when my partner responds to me as though I'm
not that, it can create rage and defensiveness and like,
(12:26):
how dare you? And how you know I can't be
with you if you don't see me this way? And
then vice versa. Right, if I have these stories and
I think I know my partner, I'm going to and
I hold them like in this box, like you don't
you don't care about me, you don't understand me, all
these things. We then relate to them as though that's true,
(12:51):
and we continue this dynamic as opposed to the vulnerable
part would be, Hey, I'm not really feeling understood in
this moment? Can we try that again?
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Right?
Speaker 4 (13:03):
Everybody?
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Not everybody, but oftentimes in a relationship, especially when we're struggling,
we tend to like layer on top of each other
assumptions and judgments and analysis.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
And trying to be right.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
And when we let go of one of us has
to be right and one of us has to be wrong,
even like you said, even if we know one of
us might be right in a certain moment. And the
more humble you get, the more we can admit when
someone else is right. But if we're trying to get
that higher position of I'm right and you're wrong, it
just kills the connection.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Yeah, it just it creates this power dynamic.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
And typically the profile of the man Shana is my clients,
they're leaders on the outside, but at home feel completely disempowered.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Is that something you see in your work too?
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Yes, And I often work with men to find and
I imagine you might do this too.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
I'm curious.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
But it's like to find that sovereign self right, the
strength or that inner self love and the knowing like
I am good, I am worthy, because it's relationship is
the hardest place to find that and know that because
(14:23):
we're in this dynamic, especially if we're feeling nagged or
attacked or not appreciated or not understood, right, it challenges
all those old wounds that we've had with our parents
and our teachers and all of that. So what I
see is that when a man is truly centered in
(14:44):
himself and he actually knows that he's an amazing man.
There's nothing he then needs to prove or defend. That
doesn't mean he can't, you know, stand up for himself
and be strong and clear and hey, this doesn't work
for me, and you know, I'm not gonna I'm not
going to tolerate that or put up with this, or
we need to find a different way here. But it's
(15:04):
not coming from a fuck you kind of a place,
or you're doing this to me, or there's much more
of a how do we figure this out together with
curiosity and compassion for each other.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
And when you think about this, moving from conventional honesty
to radical honesty, it literally is one of the most
difficult things that we're going to do in our lives.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
As people because the barriers are.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Our trauma, are programming and everything else that's getting in
the way.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
Right, Yes, And the word radical to me, I don't know,
it scares me a little bit. So that's why I
use mature honesty.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Because mature mature Yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Radical honesty, I don't necessarily believe that every single thing
needs to be said, and radical honesty to me doesn't
maybe in the book or how they describe it.
Speaker 4 (16:01):
It's like there's a there's a how you bring it.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
But if sometimes I think radical honesty inspires are like,
I'm just gonna say it, and it doesn't matter how
I say it, right, But to me, it's very important
that we actually bring that maturity and that vulnerability as
opposed to blaming, shaming or attacking, which could also be
called honesty.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
I like mature because of the point you made around radical,
I have to share every thought.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
No you do not, and nor should you.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
And that's a terrible dynamic to be stuck in. And
uh yeah, I think my listeners and get a lot
of value learning about mature communication.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Now what do oh the water bottle? Tell me about
the water bottle? Because I think this is a great.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Example of a surface level connection. And I love these
simple examples that really illustrate what's going and what clients
called shanda like they have these you know, I have
them track their triggers, and they'll track a dumb trigger
like I got up set over the water bottle.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
I'm like, that's not done right, No, No, this is okay.
This is so good.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
We're gonna because it's innocent enough it doesn't have all
the baggage of everything else to peel away the layers
of the onions.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
So give me a summer to that story and why
it was so important.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Yeah, the summary of that story is we were about
to go to Burning Man, which is this festival in
the desert that's all about survival. And you know, if
you're not hydrated, right, you things go bad. I almost
I got dehydrated there once and it was it was
not pretty.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
Yeah, you can die, you can die, right.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
And so my then husband was very focused on he
wanted a new water bottle because his didn't have a
seal that he trusted and it leaked and whatever.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
And I was very focused on.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Part of Burning Man is you know, you don't buy
unnecessary shit. We're trying to get away from the corporations and.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
Consumerism and all that plastics and all.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
You know, there's tons of plastic in the ocean and
it's in our.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
Water now and blah blah blah.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
So that was like, oh, we were not mature enough
in that moment to say, hey, you are valuing this.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
I am valuing this. How do we want to solve this?
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Right?
Speaker 3 (18:22):
We didn't have to have an answer in that moment,
but it was more like, are we willing to look
at this together from being on the same team as
opposed to from you know, dueling teams where we're duking it.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Out, and what was the So for you the what
were the deeper underlying issues for you and for your
partner at the time.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Yeah, So for me, the underlying issue one was money.
I didn't want to spend money, you know, I was
trying to save or trying to be more frugal. And
the other was the environment and really wanting to not
you know, have buy more shit that destroys our world.
And for him it was really more that survival piece,
(19:08):
which I can you know, I've acknowledged. Looking back, I'm like, Okay,
that makes so much sense. And maybe maybe we could
have come up with a win win. Maybe we could
have borrowed someone else's water bottle that had a seal,
or maybe right, I didn't even think of that option
until now twenty something years later. There are all these
different possibilities for coming together when we're not attacking each
(19:31):
other or thinking that our way is right and we
have to fight till the death, you know, to make
it happen.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
And so so how can couples learn to see what's
under the surface during conflicts.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
That I feel like, I guess I asked a question.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
I want to preface it is back to this being
one of the most challenging and rewarding things.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
That people will do is figuring that out.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
But what are some practical things that come up when
you hear that.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
One tool that I find incredibly helpful and then we'll
talk about what's you know underneath that, but is to
really sit down and say, here's what's most vulnerable for
me about this. Right, we're in the middle of a situation,
we're disagreeing, we're having an all out lah you this,
you know whatever, and it's like, okay, if we can
actually pause. In my book, I call it the race
(20:23):
to vulnerability. So you know, in a way, whoever gets
to vulnerable first wins, not that you have to focus
on winning, but usually it's like I'm going to win
the fight by being more you know, stronger protective. This way,
you win the fight by being actually more vulnerable first.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
And so just that and I love that curveball.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
By the way, Sorry for the interruption, But if there's
a chance, if there's a part of my brain that
can anchor into winning being more vulnerable.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
I will show her, I'll teach her a thing or two,
and I.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Yes, I know even just by saying, like, what's vulnerable
about this for me?
Speaker 4 (21:00):
Is now?
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Then we go back to the work that you and
I do right where we support people to find that
place inside where they love themselves and they know that
they're good innately and they don't have to prove that.
Because if it's really hard for you to share something vulnerable,
(21:22):
then we have to get underneath why Because most times
when people say to me, I want to say this,
but I don't know if you know, is this the
right words?
Speaker 4 (21:30):
Is this the right way to say it?
Speaker 3 (21:32):
I'm like your words are perfect, right, Like, there's nothing
wrong with your words. Why does it feel hard for
you to say? Then we get into some of those
those deeper things.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Yeah, relationship patterns learned in childhood, our patchment style, our traumas,
all of that stuff is underneath this mature is thwarting
mature honesty and.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
It's yeah, yeah, yeah, good, good, good good.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
That was really great. The next question I wanted to
ask you was you talked about what is the importance
of non violent communication to you and to your.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Clients, Well, what is it?
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Yeah, non violent communication is really about a similar thing
that I talk about with mature honesty, which is owning
this is this is what's.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
Going on for me. This is a need I have.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
This is an emotion I'm feeling right, this is what's
happening over here. It's my side of the street. I
had a partner once who you know. I was like, well,
maybe you think this and you feel that and blah blah,
and he was like, Okay, that's my side of the street.
Like can you go back to your side of the
street and tell me how are you feeling? What do
you need? Because oftentimes if we don't know what we
(22:55):
need or feel, we can hide behind or we just
I don't know. For me, I get to get into
that fluster of like the fears about the other person,
would you know, spin And that's what I would focus on.
But then if I could come back and say, oh,
I need a moment or I need you know, I
need us to be loving with each other, it's too
(23:17):
hard for my nervous system when we walk in the
house and we like, you know, we're already at each other.
I need us to slow down or any of those things.
If we can start to own that, you know, that
is where A we start to create this upward spiral,
and b we're not going down the downward spiral, which
(23:37):
the gravitational poll right of the downward spiral of being
violent with each other.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
It's strong.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
So then we have longer you know, resentments and just
I don't want to because you didn't, and it's it's
hard to get out of that. So if we can
either neutralize that or bring it into that vulnerability, then
we're not sucked into that black hole.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Which is so important because one of the things that
you do is broaden the concept of sex beyond the
cultural cliches. And when I think about our programming on issues,
if I had to make a list of where historically
(24:22):
we've received as a society the worst programming like traumatic
the absence of any program that neglect is produces abuse
like results.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Tell me more about that.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Okay, So, as I was in my twenties, I was
studying TNTRA and things that were like more meditative it
was called our gasmic meditation and all kinds of things
where I realized I was raised with this idea that
sex is intercourse, and sex is always you know, or
(25:02):
at least it's always with our genitals, but mostly it's intercourse.
And then the goal is like to get to climax,
and you know, we got to get If we're not
getting to that end place, then somehow we're doing something wrong.
And I think what I started to see is there
are many, many, many ways to have sex. And actually
(25:22):
that's been really helpful for me in this paramenopausal phase.
And for many of the listeners might have a woman
in their lives who things start to hurt and they
feel different, and penetration isn't always exciting anymore because it
can be uncomfortable or even painful. And so when we
expand the definition of sex to as to people together,
(25:46):
we are going to connect with as much of ourselves
as possible in as pleasure of pleasurable of a way
as possible, intimate of a way as possible. And I
talk about how sex, I describe like one dimensional sex
versus four dimensional sex, or I call it fast food
sex versus gourmet sex. One dimensional is like, okay, we're
(26:08):
doing a physical thing here, and then the gourmet or
the four dimensional is this is physical. It's also emotional,
it's also energetic. It's also for some people even spiritual.
And then we could quadruple that by saying, you can
actually learn to feel your partner's pleasure in your own body,
so you're no longer just feeling your own pleasure. You're
(26:29):
actually feeling their pleasure and your pleasure and building on that.
And that can all happen by sitting in front of
each other and looking into each other's eyes, or touching
fingertips or kissing right, like, to me, that is all sex.
And when you're not trying to get to this one
specific way of experiencing sex.
Speaker 4 (26:52):
You win a lot more.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
To your point about winning, right, it's like, yeah, and
because so many people have this idea, Yeah, this is
what it's supposed to be, and then we lose the
pleasure that can happen in all of those moments together, and.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
It doesn't have to be. You know, a guy hears
this and they.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Might think, Okay, yeah, we're talking harlequin romance novel. Does
the dew have to be dripping off the peach at
the break of dawn as we're you know, on on
the on the on the hill. I know it doesn't
mean that. But can you unpack that a little bit.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
What you just said, because yes, I can imagine I
hate certain especially men, hearing that a just like what
come on, I, how do I want?
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Is a scary word, as you know for us guys, right,
like intimacy, like some some of that clients and even
me his story, like there's this visual because there's so
much around touch. There's so much damage around touch and
connection and and and being honest and and you know
you hear a word like that, so yeah, no, take
(27:55):
it away.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
He help us understand that.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
I say that I realize my partner and I have
created the a series of dates where each one of
us gets to choose what we want or how we
want to you know, be touched, or how we want to.
Speaker 4 (28:07):
Have sex or things like that.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
It's been so hard for us to you know, to
say like, oh, this is what I want.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
So it's not easy.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
But what I will say is one of the dates
we had, my partner and I had sex, but also
before that, I was just massaging him and loving him
and like putting some attention on different parts of his body.
And it was sometimes gentle touch or sometimes a little
bit more touch that kind of had, you know, more
of a rousal touch. But he said after the whole thing,
(28:37):
he was like, you know, the sex was amazing, but
the thing that actually blew me away was I've never
felt loved like that, never felt cared for like that.
And so it's vulnerable, and like you're saying, if you
have a history of touch that was abusive or any
(28:58):
of those things, right, it's it could up even more
than having sex where you kind of get to zone
out a little bit or distance a little bit. Yeah,
so you know we have to watch out for that
and get some support when that happens, like especially from you.
But there's just so many different ways to experience pleasure.
(29:19):
And I think part of as I get older, it's
so helpful because you know, especially in a woman's body,
like I said, it's changing all the time, and there's
all kinds of pain and struggles that I've been going through.
And if my partner wasn't so loving and supportive and
(29:39):
open to like, well, let's try this. It's not about
like let's try something that's second rate or doesn't feel good, right.
Speaker 4 (29:46):
There are things that we've been able to.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
Do or ways that I've been able to create pleasure
for him where he's like, holy shit, I never even
knew that could happen because the focus has been so
much on that, you know, genital intercourse.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Well, and it's the.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
That that foundation of non physical intimacy that sets up
this this new way of thinking about sex which require
which you.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Know, demands that vulnerability.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
It's like you're no longer painting with one brush and
one color. Oh nice, you now have a uh, you know,
a number of different palette yeah, to choose from around touch.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
And so, as you.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Know, I was touched as a kid, there's a part
of me that's been having some reactions. And and because
the priests who uh who oversaw us was arrested for
child molestation and so I've been digging into that recently.
And despite being a quote unquote sex addict, one of
the things that I realized that I was completely incapable
(30:56):
of experiencing even touch. I could have sex with Michelle, yes,
but the notion of it being anything other than a
build up of that build up of that energy, a
release of that energy, was completely foreign. And one of
the pieces of advice we got at that low point.
And I want to get your thoughts on this was
(31:19):
we literally started touching with closed on one time, I
would rub hands.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
And if feet were safe, they were for us feet.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
It was literally the you know, long sleeve shirt, jeans on,
lying there, super casual, you.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Know, maybe even the TV's on in the beginning, you know.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Just to create this casual and safety and touching hands
and then forearms and then biceps and then shoulders and
then a D shirt on and then a pair of
shorts on and in building on that was so so
so important to us. And I want to hear your
(32:00):
thoughts on that, yeah, and I'm.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
So I'm just so grateful that you share your story, right,
And the thought that came out for me was if
we're okay with whatever arises from that, then we heal.
So like maybe it brings up tears, or maybe it
brings up right the grief or this anger or frustration,
(32:28):
or like if we can actually allow that and be
okay with that. And that's one of the things that
I think sex is.
Speaker 4 (32:34):
Amazing for when we when we get to a.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Level where we're not freaking out by the other's emotions
or upsets or whatever, then there's healing that happens and
we can create a very intentional context, like Okay, I'm
going to touch your hands for the next couple minutes,
and if you're willing right, you could just show me
or express or let the tears flow if they come,
(33:01):
or maybe you're gonna laugh, or maybe you're gonna yawn,
or maybe you're gonna like make a like who knows,
but trusting that our bodies can start to unwind and
release some of these things. And I think there's nothing
more sacred than doing it with a partner.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Yeah, I was.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
So blessed that Michelle had that patience and that empathy
and commitment to getting results that's gonna She became very,
very practical after my low point, which forced her to
step out of some of her patterns that she.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Was part of.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Yes, but that that that that laid a foundation because
I remember sitting there with the person I love, the
person that I wanted to be with, being so like
like it was different than times before my rock bottom,
because like you said, I can disassociate, I can disconnect,
(33:56):
I can think of something else, Like you know, there
was a compartmentalization contest. I think I'd be you know,
like an influencer, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Like, I just did it so so.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
So well, and I remember being so uncomfortable, so afraid,
so anxious, but being able to share that without judgment
and return without you shouldn't feel that way without It
was really that safety that I feel really confident is
(34:30):
one of the reasons why we're still going strong because
of that choice.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Yeah. And she's such a gift, right because yes, to
I know the clients you work with too, and to
their partners, because she can actually help people see how
she did that, you know, especially for the women, like wow,
you it can feel, I think like you're betraying yourself
(34:57):
if trust has been broken or something like that has
happened for you to show up with love and compassion
and empathy. But she found a way to show up
for you in that and also not betray herself, right,
like stay very true to herself.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Yeah. Yeah, it was absolutely you know, blessed. It's why
I'm still here, all right. I got a few more
questions for you, Shana, And this is great. So how
do you help clients move through shame into open expression
of their desires or fears? This? I like this, I
(35:36):
like that. I'm afraid of this. This is so hard
tell me.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
Your well, oftentimes I do. I call it human practice,
you know, So oftentimes with clients, we I help them
by slowing down and you know, starting to look at
like what excites you, what has turned you on in
your life? Or sometimes we go no offense pun you know,
through the back door, which is like what do you
(36:02):
not want? What does not turn you on? And then
oftentimes what I'll do, especially with men as a woman,
I get to kind of play the stand in. So
if they're feeling hesitant or like, oh, I don't know
if I could say that out loud, right, We'll slow
it down and practice together and I'll have them say
it and then maybe just pause and feel like you
(36:26):
said some of those feelings that come up, and then
I can guide them through that so that it doesn't
you know, the stakes are a lot lower with me
than they are with a partner, right, and there's a
lot more there's there's anxiety or anxiousness or whatever that
can happen saying it to me because I'm a woman.
But it's not like, oh, I'm going to lose my
(36:47):
relationship if I say this thing. So as we practice
and as it becomes more natural and as we sometimes
look at like, well.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
Why would that be a bad thing?
Speaker 3 (36:59):
You know, why would there be something wrong with you
if you did want that, And we go back into
some of those old stories and clear that up, then
it becomes much more comfortable to bring it to your partner.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
I love that technique. I have something similar. I call
it scripting, and because when they say it and guys,
you know, this is great advice.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
And you can do this in front of a mirror.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
If you have something you want to say, practice saying
it because you have been trained in conditioned to get
defensive and shut down.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
You got that down pat This is.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
A new skill, a new tool, a new language, and
new words that you're not used to putting together. So
I love that technique. So your your ted talk is
so powerful. What is the one thing you wish every
man heard about his emotional world and how it impacts
his relationship? If you had to pick one, and I didn't,
(37:51):
We didn't plan this, so I know I'm putting you
on the spot and I'm a friend, so I feel bad.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
If nothing else, it's the one thing.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
The one thing that comes up is that vulnerability is
human and that most men are shamed out of the
just very human things you feel, the fear, the upset,
the grief, the all of it, right, the unknown, the uncertainty.
(38:18):
But just if you start to really get oh, this
is a part of being human. I am innately good,
I am innately lovable, right, So does it takes.
Speaker 4 (38:29):
Some work to get there?
Speaker 1 (38:32):
Yes? It does.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
But then I can be vulnerable in front of another
person who's attacking my vulnerability and know that it's about them,
it's not about me, and it's like, I'm sorry you
feel that way, or yes, I can see how you
might think I'm weak right now, but actually I know
I'm strong, and I know I'm a good person, and
(38:53):
I also know I'm scared in this moment.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
And that's why it's so important for men to do
the work on themselves. They have to, right, I mean
a lot of guys they get caught. They jump into
couple's therapy and that's you know again, I only see
the cases where that fails, But it fails miserably because
each person, if they did some of this foundational work,
(39:17):
they'd be coming together in so much of a better place.
And it's really almost unfair for the couple's counselor to
It's a lot, it's a big ask, and very few
counselors have the skill to be able to fix both
in the relationship at the same time. Like that lady
on TV who's got that show, who's the Master? I
forget her name right now, she's very very good. They
(39:40):
do that couple. Yeah, they have people and they do
it live and it's all right. So what this was
the other thing that I thought was really interesting for
men working on themselves. How can they balance strength and softness?
Speaker 3 (40:00):
Yeah, and you can think of softness however you want
to think about it, right, It might be openness, it
might be open heartedness, it might be that kind of vulnerability.
I think remembering that vulnerability is actually a strength is amazing, right,
because there are men I've worked with who would like,
I would jump out of an airplane.
Speaker 4 (40:19):
Before I, you know, really want to share my vulnerable
desires with my partner.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
And when I think about a man jumping out of
an airplane, I'm like, God, that takes a lot of
strength or a lot of hutzba, you know. But when
you think that the vulnerability is even scarier to remember, Wow,
it's actually strong to be able to love myself and
stand up for myself and still, you know, show these
(40:47):
parts that I'm afraid I'm going to be rejected by
or rejected for.
Speaker 4 (40:51):
So yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
Think reframing that as vulnerability as a strength is a
really powerful move.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Yeah, I agree. I think it's one of the most powerful.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
One last thing before we wrap up, is there anything
that we and and people listening? There's so my list
of questions is obscene for Shana one because we became
friends her, Michelle and I and we've been really diving
into her stuff, and so I would love to have
(41:23):
you back. And what I like to do is my
clients listen to these podcasts and then they follow up
with questions and.
Speaker 3 (41:30):
Then yeah, yeah, yeah, love to answer questions.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
And I look forward to that.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
But what's is there anything you want to leave my
audience with, Shana?
Speaker 1 (41:39):
This is so great, so honored to get to know you.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
I think what I would like to leave your audience
with is, you know, some people stay together, some people separate.
I think, right the ideally if you can, I think
what you support people to do is right to weather
this storm and and stick with it. I just I
(42:04):
want to give the context that if you can see
this in terms of growth, whether it's emotional growth, spiritual growth.
You know that everything that's happening is a chance to
grow and to learn to love better and to learn
to be loved more. And yes, at times we wish
(42:28):
it didn't have to happen through so much trauma or
so much challenge, but it's another way of maturing, right
when we really like get rid of the fantasies of oh,
it's going to be perfect.
Speaker 4 (42:39):
And it's going to be hot, and it's going to be.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
This, going to be that, and you know and and
I don't know, so I guess what I'm saying is
when you can create the context around this that Okay,
this is what's happening, I am going to face the
reality and I'm going to do, you know, whatever I
can to learn the lessons is I think of it
like as a soul curriculum. Right, I'm going to learn
(43:04):
the lessons that when I'm on my deathbed, I look
back and I feel proud of myself because, right, I
learned to open my heart, or I learned to be
more generous, or I learned to receive love. That's a
really big one for men too. Yeah, and that to
not make yourself wrong right, not you know, have to
(43:24):
make your partner wrong, but also if you can let
go of making yourself wrong and just realize, all right,
this was the hand you were delt, you're doing. You
did the best you could and now you actually, you know,
get to step into being who you're.
Speaker 4 (43:38):
Proud to be.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Yeah, that privilege we have of you know, not working
eighteen hours in a mine.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
You know, we can work on ourselves.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
We can learn and grow from our mistakes and and
and reach out to people like you and everybody.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
Here's in me. But here's the book.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
I'm honest sex a passionate paths to deep in connection
and keep relationships alive. I'm going to have this in
the notes, and I'm also going to have Shana's website
and anything else she wants to share with you guys.
But just if you're listening and you're not inclined to
click blow Shana James Coaching, It's s h A. N. A.
(44:19):
James Coaching all one word dot com and please please
please check her out.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Shana, thank you so much for being on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
Thank you so much for having me, and I so.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Look forward to you having you back. So thank you
everybody for listening. It's me Craig Parra, founder of the
Mindful Habit System. Embrace your power of choice and feed
the right wolf inside you. Thanks for listening. Make it great.
Life is too short to suck. Have a great day, everybody,
Bye bye, thank you. Yes, how did you feel about that? Good?
Speaker 4 (44:53):
Do you want to stop it or keep it going?
Speaker 3 (44:54):
It looks like it's done.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
Let me stop it right now.
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