Psycho 1960 vs. 1998 -"Shall We Compare Thee?"

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello friends, It's Jade. Quickreminder. If you're listening to this first
episode on Perfectly Marvelous Murder Magnets orDead to Us feed and would like to
be notified of future episodes of ShallWe Compare Thee, then don't forget to
subscribe to the Shall We Compare Theefeed separately. The link to do that
is in the description of this episode. And one more time, I just

(00:21):
want to say, if you guysdidn't listen to the trailer, this podcast
idea has been in my head foryears since it was my dream podcast,
since before I ever started podcasting,and I'm so proud to finally introduce it
to the world. Paul and Ihave had such a blast. We've been
working really hard and we're just soexcited to start this journey, this adventure,

(00:45):
and so yeah, we really hopethat you guys enjoy this first episode
on Psycho, and we really hopethat you subscribe and come back for future
episodes because it's gonna be a reallyfreaking good time if the first episode is
any indication, So I hope youenjoy, and please don't forget to subscribe.
Thank you, talk to you soon. Bye, good evening. Folks,

(01:15):
welcome to the podcast. I'm Jadeand I'm Paul, and this is
Shall We Compare THEE a Remake andSequel podcast. We will review and analyze
our favorite films and television shows anddecide if they hold up to their reimagined
or modernized counterparts. That's right,and only one can survive, guys,

(01:38):
and we are going to be decidingwhich one it is, because you know
we're superbly qualified to do so.So, so, Paul, why don't
you tell the folks what we goton tap for today? Well, Jade,
we are talking all things Psycho.Oh my goodness, we are comparing

(01:59):
Alfred hitch Hawk's nineteen sixty original flavorfilm Psycho to Gus Van Sant's remake from
nineteen ninety eight. Oh my goodnes. Well that's sure to be a close
call. That's it's anybody's game,Paul, no idea, who's going to
come out on top? Oh yeah, no, this is It's gonna be
a gonna be a close one.Yeah, all right, We've got lots

(02:23):
to cover, So, without furtherado, roll me some trailers. Roll
those funky jailers. Good afternoon.Here we have a quiet little motel an

(02:47):
isolated motel, talked away off themain highway, and as you see,
perfectly harmless looking, no one stopsyour for a couple of weeks, when
in fact it has now become knownas the scene of the crime. In

(03:10):
that window on the second floor,the single one in front, that's where
the woman was first seen. Let'sgo inside. This was the Sun's room,
but we won't go in there becausehis favorite spot was the little parlor
behind his office in the motel.My voice was friends, his mother,

(03:37):
well, the murderer. She creptin here, very surry across the showers
on there was no sound, andmother, oh god mother. All right,

(04:13):
guys, So I'm ridiculously excited rightnow. I'm like, I'm bursting
at the seams with enjoyment with Ah, what am I trying to say?
I know, I can I canvery, I can verify, I can
see Jade on zoom, and Ican verify. All the bursting is happening
right now. First of all,spoiler warning, We're about to spoil everything
to do with Psycho to nineteen sixteen, nineteen ninety eight, so please please

(04:36):
do not listen to this unless youhave already watched those films. Unless you
you know you're into spoilers, thenkeep listening. And also if there's anything
that we talk about that you arelike wanting to skip over. I'm going
to do my best to put thetime stamps in the description of this podcast
because she's she's going to be alogin this. This is strap in for
a good couple of hours of goodpsycho fodder because there's a lot to cover.

(05:00):
So do all your laundry to thisone. Yes, do all the
laundry. You're gonna you're gonna goto the gym. You could probably bring
your laundry to the gym and getit all done and still have time left
over because this one, this oneis going to be unique. We're picking
a very unique film to start.Yeah, this has been my dream film.

(05:21):
So this has been my dream podcastidea since before I started podcasting.
It was just a little twinkle inmy eye and I was thinking, God,
I'd love to I'd love to bea podcaster, and I'd love to
do a film and television podcast whereI can compare originals to remix because I
kind of hate remakes and I haveso much to say on that topic.

(05:43):
So I always thought to myself andyou know what a great first episode would
be Psycho And I can't believe theday has come. Here we are Sunday,
June eleventh, eight o eight pm. Was this the movie that inspired
you to do this? Yeah?Yeah, Because I had not seen I
was like, I will never seethat remake on principle, and I haven't
until just a few days ago.But because I love Psycho so much and

(06:06):
there's just so much that I wantto say about it, and I have
such interest in it. And whenI found out that they did a shot
for shot, a quote unquote shotfor shot remake, I was like horrified
and thinking to myself, Oh,that would definitely be something to podcast about,
you know, when I have apodcast. And then I started podcasting
and then I was like, youknow what, I want to do it.

(06:27):
And I found Paul Hi. Wefound each other in the podcast places
where you find people. I waslike, the perfect person to do this
with, and I pitched the idea. He was like, I'm in.
I don't have the same hatred ofremakes. I don't hate them all.
I don't. I just I havestrong opinions. You know, I understand,

(06:47):
I understand. I mean, youknow, you you come from the
acting world. I come from somewhatof the acting world, but much more
from the music world. And remakesare all around us. You're stepping on
you're stepping on a stage. Youare probably doing a play that's been done
a million times, you know,with you know, with some variations of

(07:09):
that. And when I play music, I'm playing like I played in symphonies
for a long time. I'm playingBeethoven, I'm playing hide and stuff that's
been done a million times. I'min a cover band right now. We're
playing songs have been played since theseventies. Oh, there's something about the
movie, especially movie remakes, thatcan really turn people the wrong way if

(07:30):
they're not done right. And youknow, we have this list of movies
we're going to be going through andjust looking at the list, most of
the originals are going to be better, but I'm very excited to find remakes
that top the original. I thinkthat's going to be the fun part.
Where somebody has either fixed something orexpanded on something that should have been expanded

(07:56):
on, but because of the timeor the technology, they couldn't do it.
This might not be one of those, but I don't want to get
I don't want to get ahead ofourselves. Spoiler yeah, yeah, spoiler
spoiler. One of these movies isgoing to survive. The other one's going
to be locked in a trunk androlled into the swamp. So we'll find
out which one that is. Staytuned, Stay tuned. So, Paul,

(08:20):
I gotta know, why do youlove Psycho? Why do you personally
find this film podcast worthy? Sohere's the thing. Psycho is not one
of my favorite Hitchcock movies. Isaw it when I was very young,
and I'm not a big scary movieperson, so I had seen a bunch
of the other ones when I wasyoung. I'd seen all the colorful you

(08:43):
know, Grace Kelly and Gowns,Carrie Granted A. Tuck's movies. I
loved those and I still do.And then the first time I saw Psycho,
I was like this, it's tooclaustrophobic, is too creepy. I
just I had a bad reaction toit. Didn't see it again until I
was in college. The college experiencewas probably the closest I'll ever get to
watching it in nineteen sixty because therewas a bunch of people that had never

(09:05):
seen it I'm I'm an older person. You know, this was not a
streamable time. You had to gorent it if you were going to see
something. So that was like therewere serious thrills in that one, serious
screams. People were freaked out.That was probably the best time I ever
had watching it. But watching itfor this project has been very illuminating,

(09:28):
and it has definitely risen in myesteem for it because it's it is doing
something very unique that I am tryingto rack my brain if another movie has
done it this well, and Ican't think of another one that did,
and we'll talk about it, butit's it's it's it is such a unique

(09:54):
way of telling this story that itreally it really spoke to me this time.
Still not going to be the onethat I'm going to plug in when
I want to watch a hitch hookfor fun, but it's been very enjoyable
to kind of take it apart andsee how the parts work. I'm curious,
what is your favorite Hitgecock? Youhard to pick a top notorious that

(10:16):
a Carrie Grant Ingrid Bergmann, blackand White cloud rains. Oh, they're
they're just it's just it just doesit does everything that I want a Hitchcock
movie to do. It has thethrills and suspense, but it's also got
the romance in the comedy. It'sgot like a little bit of everything.
And the ending of that is justlike, yeah, so good. Yeah
so nineteen forty eight Notorious, Gogo find that one as well. Yes

(10:41):
you so. I am getting asense of yeah, so you're that kind
of Hitchcock fan. I have.I agree with what you say about the
Psycho having risen in my estimation sincehaving to research about it for a podcast.
I always knew that it was inmy at least top five Hitgecocks or
sure, I feel like it mightbe top three or four. I gotta

(11:03):
I gotta go with Frenzy as mytop. And I actually was thinking to
myself, God, what a greatdouble feature Psycho and Frenzy would be because
Psycho it was like mid career Hitchcockand then Frenzy is very end of his
career. I think it's his lastreally really great work. I just yeah,

(11:26):
I think it's his best. Thereyou go, I think I'm going
to go there. And it hasso much in common. There's so much
similarity between the two films, andI was just thinking about it, like,
man, what a great um,what a great comparison podcast that would
make. I'm going to find away to talk about Frenzy for sure at
some point on this podcast, becauseI really need people to know about that

(11:48):
film more may I may have amovie to compare it to. Oh but
it also stars Vince Vaughan. Sowell, we will, we will.
We'll have to think about that.So okay, you know, to be
continued. I'm excited to leave thatone on the cliffhanger audience. You'll listeners,

(12:11):
you will, you'll hear about thatin the future. Yeah, so
so uh, I would say,yeah, the Frenzy is my top,
and then the Birds is a secondchoice for me, And then I think,
yeah, I'm thinking maybe third choiceit might be Psycho. I don't
know, though Notorious is pretty damngood. I also really love Shadow of

(12:33):
a Doubt. Um, and youcan now I think you're you're kind of
getting a sense of the kind ofHitchcock fan I am because Shadow of a
Doubt, the Birds, Frenzy,Psycho they all have a lot in common
because of their main you know,villain and the way that their mental um
psychosis is portrayed in all of thosefilms and what it means to be psycho,

(12:56):
you know, but yeah, itcomes to psycho for me. The
reason I love it is because it'sa great quote in the film. We
all go a little mad sometimes.It's just it's this film is so disturbingly
relatable because everyone has mommy and daddyissues, right, Like everyone has childhood

(13:16):
trauma on some level, and whatNorman and Marion go through, we've all
gone through it on some level tosome degree, and then what we're seeing
on screen with them, it's justamplified. You know, we've all tried
to bury our mother in the FruitSeller, you know, like and stop
the parental voice of authority in ourheads. You know, we've all imagined
what it would be like to abscondwith a whole bunch of money and like

(13:39):
skip down and shack up with ourhot lover. Like we've all had that
fantasy. So I think it's alittle disturbing the way that it's so this
could be anybody. This could beme, I could Marian, I could
live next door to Norman Bates.There's an article and just listeners, so
you know every article that is mentioned, every video it will all be linked

(14:01):
in the show notes. The showNotes is a treasure trove of psycho and
Hitchcock goodness. So check out theshow notes. It's worth the price of
admission for this podcast alone. I'vedone taken great pains to you know,
categorize all of our references. SoI'm not going to say it every single
time I mentioned an article, butjust no, every article I mentioned is

(14:22):
linked in the show notes. Sothere's an article by you. It's Freud's
concept of the unconscious, and it'sa UK essay article and I want to
quote from it. It's a psychocreates a fear, not necessarily from the
brutality of the murderers, but thesubconscious identification with the film's characters. Freud's

(14:43):
concept of the unconscious is so brilliant, it's so explicitly mirrored through the film.
We have a seemingly normal woman whosebalance is offset by a desire and
which drives that of desire, whichdrives her to commit a financial crime.
At the other end of the spectrum, we have again, a man who
most would think was harmless enough,but due to his childhood and developmental restrictions,

(15:05):
has for other reasons allowed his unconsciousto take full control of his conscious.
According to Freud, the essence ofoppression lies simply in the turning something
away and keeping it at a distancefor the conscious. Freud believed traumatic memories,
usually of childhood events, are repressedas a defense mechanism which keeps the
ego free of conflict intension. However, something can induce the momentary retrieval of

(15:31):
a repressed memory, and in thecase of Norman Bates, this triggered a
psychotic in his mother Psyche episode.And I just love that whole quote because
it's so perfectly outlines Yeah, everythingthat I think is compelling about Psycho as
a film. When Hitchcock talks aboutthis movie, he talks about it as

(15:52):
a joke. I wants me inthe movie rather than toallenge he called Psycho.
Yes, and it was have beenjoke, you know, And I
was horror and find to find thesome people to his seriously, it was
intended to cause people to scream andyell and so forth, but no more
than they screaming and yelling on theswitchback railway. Switchback railways are roller coasters

(16:17):
for those of you young n's andI've I've taken that to not mean that
he thinks it's an unseerious movie.I've taken that to mean that he has
set up two major pranks in thismovie. When we talk about the ninety
eight version, the secrets underneath thewhole thing are just all gone. And
it's like all the subtext has nowjust become text and you don't have that

(16:41):
underlying thing anymore. You have notension there. You have everything surface,
everything has made very explicit, andyou just don't have that underlying churning that
the Hitchcock was able to do.Yes, Yes, it's interesting too because,
like I was saying, he's alwaysinterested in fair with his audience,
and he always would answer questions thathe thought the audience would have. He

(17:04):
would he would be like, well, they're going to wonder why she is
making this deal at the car atthe car dealership so quickly, so we
have to see her get some papers. We have to see her grab these
documents. And he didn't want theaudience distracted wondering about plot holy kind of
questions like oh well, where where'sher where's her license and registration? You
know, he like took care ofall that. He wrote it into the

(17:26):
script, but it's it's interesting inthe way that he he kind of plays
fair but doesn't because like Mother isnot played or voiced by Tony Perkins,
right, right, But part ofit is because in Norman Bates his mind,
mother is someone else. So bynot playing fair, he actually is
kind of playing fair. It's sucha layered film, it's doing so many

(17:48):
things on so many different levels dependingon the character. You know. But
I think that you could say,oh, well, that's cheating because obviously
I'm not going to know that Motheris him because Mother isn't even played by
him. That's not fair. Andit's like, yeah, but this is
not a film in reality. Ithink in that moment we are shifting from
Marian's perspective to Norman's. And inNorman's mind, he is not Mother,

(18:11):
so why should Mother be played byhim? It shouldn't. So it's kind
of like is it fair? Isit not fair? And I think it's
like, this is what I'm saying. It's a huge outlier in Hitchcock's in
Hitchcock's filmography. Well, with thatbeing said, I think we should dive
into these movies. Paul. Thequestion of the hour Psycho shall we compare

(18:33):
thee. Nah, we should justoperate here now, I think we should
wrap it up. Okay, allright, that's that's that's a wrap cut
print. Moving on, let's getinto it. Let's do it. Never

(18:56):
did eat your lunch, did you? I've got to get back to the
office. These extended lunch always givemy boss sexis ascid. Let's get in
that hotel. We got to start. We got to start at the beginning.
It's Christmas time and Phoenix Hitchcock issending us up. You've seen the
poster. You've seen Marian Crane.It's all Genet Lee. First shot Genetly.
She's lying on that bed and herand her head is right next to

(19:19):
a guy's dick. Did you noticethat? That was the first thing I
noticed on this rewatch? Did Inotice that? Of course, of course
they couldn't have a thing in bed, so he had to be standing up
wearing his pants. Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of that. If,
like I was talking about my favoriteHitchcock Notorious, there's a whole makeout
scene between Carrie Grant and Ingram Bergmanthat they had to do, like these

(19:41):
little tiny kisses to get past thecode and the code. The production code
is still in is still in.You know, we are still a few
years away from GPG. I wasM instead of R at the time,
and X. We're still ways awayfrom those distinctions. So we're still just

(20:02):
dealing with a production code. Andthis was their first no no, which
was you can't have this this unmarriedcouple in this hotel room. We're setting
it up. We know the manneeds some money. He's got he's got
debts to pay, he's got analimony to pay. And we know that
Marion Crane wants to get married andshe's willing to do whatever it takes to
get married. Yeah, she's Oh, she's willing to go there. Man,

(20:26):
Oh boy is she. She's sucha badass. And I don't know.
I don't know if this is apopular opinion or not, but Sam,
I just don't know what to makeof him in either film. I
have no idea how he feels aboutMarian. I know that you've read the
book, so real quick, canyou like talk about the difference in the
relationship before we get into it.I want to know what you find from

(20:48):
book to film. The main differencein the Sam Marian of it all.
Well, the sam Marian of itall. In the book, they meet
on a cruise, and on thecruise they are already talking about marriage.
They've just met. This is thattime period where it's like, you know,
if we want to have sex,we're going to have to get married.

(21:11):
Nothing happens below the waiste until weget married. You know, you're
talking about love, maybe lust,definitely, But their relationship is pretty much
the same that that dialogue that comesin in the hotel room is mirrored in
the novel. The big difference inthe novel is that it doesn't start in
this scene. It doesn't start withIt starts with Norman and his mom having

(21:33):
an argument and talking about Oedipus.Oh subtle, but it's an important change.
And this is one of the changesthat Stefano made brought to Hitchcock and
said, that's why I'm hiring youis that if you start with Norman and
you start with mother, then they'rethe focus of the movie. Right,
you start with maryon Crane. Nowwe've got the setup. I've got a

(21:56):
hunch that when stuff Fano came upwith that idea to Hitchcock, because Hitchcock
had not thought of that idea whenhe was like, I'm going to adapt
this novel. I think that thatwas one of the things that sold him
on hiring such an unknown young writerlike Stefano. I think that when he
got that idea, he was like, Okay, man, you're hired.
Let's do it. Because when heHitchcock loved the idea that we're going to

(22:19):
kill off Marian, We're going tokill off our you know, the big
star, you know, Janet Leeis going to be dead forty minutes in
and everyone's going to be shocked.And like he really enjoyed that. Screenplays
are structure. They have to bestructured in the right way or that doesn't
make sense. You can do anywhatever you do with a dialogue, whatever
you do with the camera, butthat structure has to be in place.

(22:40):
Otherwise, especially in a movie likethis, the payoff is just not going
to work. There's a bit ofThe only thing that I really want to
talk about in this scene is likethe foreshadowing. There's a lot of foreshadowing
in this script, and it isso just well done because it turns into
dramatic irony when you watch it thesecond time, because you know what's what's
going you know the ending. Butsure, this foreshadowing is like setting us

(23:04):
up. It's priming us for what'sabout to happen, and we have no
idea, but it's peppered throughout.And so she says, check out time
is three pm. Hotels aren't interestedin you when you come in, but
when your time is up. Youknow, oh, when your time is
up. And then there's a wholehaving having dinner with the mother's picture on
the wall, you know, yeah, that picture around hey, yeah,

(23:27):
right, And then she says,I pay two. They also pay who
meet in hotel rooms. There's somuch similarity between Marion and Norman, so
they pay two who meet in hotelrooms. I think really refers to like
how Norman pays he's a slave tosomething because he never wanted his mother to
buy this hotel in the first place. Like this guy who his mother married

(23:51):
convinced her to buy the hotel.You know, I don't know, I
just get the sense. It jumpedout at me that line on my this
watch. The funny thing if goingto the ninety eight version, as we're
comparing things here is there's a shotof a fly, okay, on somebody's
arm. Now I went to theoriginal script that Stefano wrote. That fly

(24:15):
is in the original script, Hitchcockcut it out, and this is that
Van Sant does kind of throughout thismovie of just like these little insert shots
that don't add up to anything that'sin the original script. But it doesn't
add up to anything. This leadsme to believe that since Stefano was such
a major part of he wrote thescript for the for the you know,

(24:37):
the ninety eight film, I thinkthat he might be a little bit more
to blame for it than we givehim credit for because Van Sant is the
face of it, and he takesso much of the brunt of it.
But I really do think that withhaving he's Van Sant's got to be out
of his mind with glee. Ohmy god, I'm working with Joseph Stefano.
This is the original writer. Let'sdo anything, Yes, sir,

(24:57):
if you want that, and younever got it way back in nineteen sixty,
I'm gonna give it to you now, let's do it. Sure.
I think that a lot of hisideas were okayed just regardless of how Van
Sant felt about them, which makessense. If I were in Van Sant's
position, I would have said yes, probably twomom, maybe not. I
don't know. Does that fly.There's a lot of fly in the remake,

(25:18):
there's a lot of fly, Sothey're trying to book in the fly
and the fly. It's it's it'swell. The reason that Hitchcock took it
out though, is because, yeah, you don't got to beat him over
the head. No, no tothe fly. It's too subtlety man subtlety.
The other line that's really funny,which is in both but takes on
two different really connotations, is I'lllick the stamps. Yes, when Marion

(25:41):
Crane sixty says it, I will, I will lick the stamps sounds to
me like I will, I willsupport you, I'll be in court with
you, whatever it needs to bedone, I will do it. I'll
lick the stamps. In the ninetyeight version, and Hash's looking straight at
Vigo's butt and says, I likethe stamps. So she says it exactly

(26:03):
like that, I like the stamps. Yeah, yeah, yeah, she's
given and again, let the actorsdo what they want to do. I
mean, it changes the meaning ofit a little bit, But I just
noticed that as a very interesting differenceit's like kind of like the ninety eight
stuff becomes like, well, wecan do this now. I'm shocked to
realize how much of this old timeydialogue does not play. It's just shocking

(26:27):
throughout the remake. How I lovedcertain lines in the sixties and just saying
them in color with these actors withtheir voices. I'm just like laughing at
it, you know. And forexample, the excess acid line, who
says excess acid? I thought tomyself, Oh, you know how that
line could have played is if AnneHayesh were to do like an impersonation of

(26:49):
her boss, because her boss isolder than her, so maybe he would
say something like excess acid. Youknow. But like who refers to you
know, stomach problems as excess acid. No one. So it just the
way that she says it, itjust does nothing except distract from how no
one talks like this anymore. Shesays it like it's her genuine, organic

(27:11):
thought. Okay, can you changethat line to something good? He's like,
why, it's perfect, Yeah,I worked the first time. Another
thing is the chemistry between the twoactors. Now I think that John HITCHCOCKO
is referred to John Gavin as theStiff. He did not he was not
a fan Stiff And yeah, I'mnot a fan either. I get less
than nothing from John Gavin. Ijust yeah, he's he's kind of he's

(27:37):
cute to look at and he's gotthose abs, but not much else.
I'll tell you right now. JohnGavin had a year because he was in
the number two movie Psycho. He'salso in the number one movie of the
year, Spartacus. He plays JuliusCaesar. Yes, also not that well,
no, no no, and hestops acting. He becomes an ambassador
to Mexico under Reagan. So he'sstop acting in the eighties. Yeah,

(28:02):
yeah, because he was. Hewas he had a Mexican mother, I
think so. He his last fewyears was as an ambassador in a diplomat
he pulled to Grace Kelly. Yeah, well, well done, stiff,
right. The thing I have anissue with is that these two have negative
chemistry, and I think that that'sby nature. With Anne hash I think

(28:22):
that she's a very cold she hasa very cold energy, whereas Janet Lee
is super warm and almost maternal,and I think she was a mother by
this point. I think that shehad just had Jamie Lee Curtis. So
there's but even without having a child, I'm sure she's just a warm person
and she's I like her right away, right away, the tone of her
voice, the look in her eye. I wanna know more about her.

(28:48):
She draws me right in. Anneis very birdlike, very very on brand
for this film. But she isshe has like a twitchiness and like I
said, a coldness. The thingthat I found funny watching her in the
documentary was that she very proudly islike I only thought Psycho Ones and I
don't know. I didn't even knowwho Hitchcock was. Like, she's so

(29:11):
flip about it, and I don'tknow that that's a bad thing. I
wouldn't want my actors to watch.Like when I got cast in the role
to do it in a scene studyclass, I didn't. I chose not
to watch the film before I didthe scene, so that that kind of
is okay for enough. But there'sthings something about her energy which I just

(29:32):
it mystifies me as to why shewas cast in this role. You know,
well, she had just done DonnieBrasco and Wagged the Dog, and
she had won the National Board ReviewSupporting an Actress Award for those two movies,
and she's great in both of thosemovies. Yeah, she wasn't the
first choice. He wanted Nicole Kidman. He also talked to Drew Barry even

(29:53):
colder. In my opinion, isNicole Kidman. I don't know. I
can't think. I don't think shewould have done worse. I couldn't have
been worse, but Nicole Kidman Idon't think would have really made anything better.
Both of these actors are super vegoand and they're super smiley. They're
just cheese and grins the whole timeit. I don't know. I just
like I said in the in thesixties, I got the sense of this

(30:15):
seriousness of it all. This islike, this is this is a dire
situation for both of them. Really, she is dissatisfied man, and she
is worried, Like you said,am I ever going to get married?
So yeah, I don't think there'smuch more to say about it. And
I don't want to harp, butbut I don't understand the cheesy, the
cheesy smiley happiness. To try tounderstand the repressive society that was happening at

(30:41):
the time that the original movie wasmade. Meeting in a hotel doesn't really
make a whole lot of sense anymore. No, like, why are they
meeting in a hotel? Go go, go have a coffee at Starbucks in
public. Who's going to say anything, Who's gonna know? It doesn't make
any you know, go back tosomebody's apartment and and do your thing.
It doesn't make any sense. JanetLee couldn't go back to her apartment because

(31:04):
her sister, I think they livedtogether. So if you know, they
had to get a hotel, theydidn't have a choice, and people talk,
you know, in society. Butin the nineties, Yeah, it
doesn't make It doesn't make much sense. And again, when you're starting the
movie off and you're trying to buildthose stakes, the stakes in nineteen sixty
makes sense for nineteen sixty. Yeah, those stakes in nineteen ninety eight don't

(31:29):
play at all. They are weakstakes. And you're talking about a horror
movie where somebody's going to well,first of all, you're talking about a
film noir. The first half ofthis movie is basically a film noir with
the Marian Crane is the fematwel who'sstealing the money for the man in the
nineteen ninety eight version. It's almostkind of like, well, wouldn't it
be fun to steal this money witha smile on my face and a song

(31:52):
in my heart? So okay,so let's move it on. We're out
of the hotel and we're back atthe office. Oh no, pass.
He makes a lot of resolutions.You forget them as soon as they stopped
hurting. Have you got to askprinhad something not asprint? My mother's talkedor
gave them to me the day ofmy wedding. Teddy was furious when he

(32:13):
found out I'd taken tranquilizes. We'rein the nineteen sixty version. You got
the intrusive mother motif and Pat Hitchcockwith her. I just absolutely love Pat
Hitchcock in this, the tranquilizer,the tranquilizer line, the way that she
talks about my mother called to seeif Teddy called. You're starting to get
a lot of parental voices coming atyou because this guy sitles up to to

(32:40):
this Tom Cassidy as hot as freshMilk was such a great line, and
he starts talking about his baby daughter, and so Marian is like, shit,
man, just young people are gettingmarried and you got this young little
secretary friend of hers in the officeand she's married, and when am I
gonna get married? I'm on theshelf. I'm an old maid, and

(33:01):
like it's all starting to become veryclear what's happening here. And this guy
just walks into the office and justleers at her and is so obviously over
the time. He sits on thedesk and like leans so close to her.
When I watched this for this podcast, I watched it with my girlfriend

(33:21):
Selena, and she had never seenPsycho before, and I didn't know that.
I assumed she had seen Psycho andshe went to films she went to
film school as well. And it'sso fun to watch this with someone because
I was like, wait. Westarted watching it and I was like,
wait, you are you saying you'venever seen Psycho? And she goes,
no, what do you think I'vebeen I've never seen. I was like,

(33:42):
I thought you even met recently,and she goes, no, I've
never seen it. And I'm like, wait, do you know you don't
know? And she goes no,what. I'm like, you don't know
and she goes, well, no, I've seen Bates Motel. And I'm
like, I don't think you knowthough, like you don't know the twist
like the end, and she goes, Jade, I don't know what you're
talking ab I'm like, okay,okay, let's watch it. It was
very thrilling to watch through the eyesof someone who was a complete hit psycho

(34:05):
virgin. What a great experience.It was a great reminder of how to
appreciate the film in the way thatit was meant to be shown in nineteen
sixty, you know, when audienceswere genuinely taken in by the whole this
is our protagonist and this is agood guy. And yeah she was.
She was. She was hooked andshe was she fell for it all.

(34:28):
It was great. So anyway,so as soon as this guy comes in,
the thing that she said was whatif that actually happened? Can you
like she was? She was sobowled over by the by the outright just
hitting on her. This guy does. And this is where the film starts
to get a little heightened in realityin my opinion, because everyone is so

(34:51):
after Marion as a sex object andthis it's very clearly the way that she's
filmed through like the mail gaze.But I just think that the way it's
film, and the way he isso obvious about it, it just almost
feels like it's um like we're alreadystarting to get this scene through her perspective
more than reality's perspective. You knowwhat I like about Lee in this performance

(35:14):
is that she doesn't give anything up. Yeah, when he takes the money
out, no reaction, she doesn'teven look at the money, and Hayes
is almost drooling ling. Yeah,but again, this is the times.
It's like nineteen sixty. You haveto keep that facade up. You know.
If the guy's hitting on you andyou just you want your job and

(35:37):
you want to get that deal done, you just put on that facade and
give him a nice smile and yeah, yeah, that's that's very nice.
Oh you say that you can keepyour mouth shut when you want to.
Great, great, I'm I'm notI'm not going home with you, and
I'm certainly not going to Vegas withyou. And then there's that line that
that uh Stefano line that he getsto put back in the script Vegas.

(36:00):
Yeah, what was it? Oh? Yeah, when she leaves the office
because she has the headache and he'slike, you should come to Vegas.
It's the playground. It's like anadult playground, says something like that,
and and Mary's like, I'm gonnaspend the weekend in bed. And he's
like, that's the only playground thatcan beat Vegas. Yea, And Stefano

(36:20):
gets to put that line back inGood job, another hit, Another Hitchcock
removal because of subtle. Subtle ismore because because he gives the boss a
look when she says that, andyou know what he's thinking. He's like,
it's like, it's a that's whatshe said to joke. Yeah,
that moment, and it's like heknows. He's like, looks at him.
He's like, m and that's allyou need. Nope, Nope,

(36:44):
don't need to hit me over thehead with it. Yeah, And I
will go right back with you onPat Hitchcock. Just a beautiful performance in
this one scene. And I actuallydon't think Rita Wilson's that bad in that
moment. Again, she's in thesame movie that William H. May's in.
She's in the same movie with WilliamH. Macy. Yeah, she's

(37:05):
She's in nineteen sixty with a moviewith very little comedy in it. It's
very nice to see somebody do thecomedy beats and hit it. I super
enjoyed Chad Everett as as Cassidy.I'm like, oh, if there's anyone
that could have done what Medical Center? He was the star of the show
called Medical Center. When I wasI had no idea what you're talking about.

(37:27):
Oh yeah, that was and theBoss the Boss players Rance Howard.
He's Ron Howard's dad, the Boss. Yeah. Yeah, So something I
got to talk about while we're transitioninghere is the I got to talk about
the costumes. What what is goingon? Why are we in Barbie doll
Land? This really bothered me.This is probably what I find one of

(37:51):
the more egregious things about the remake. The I mean that hair, the
pixie cut, with this neon pinksuit, little thing. I just I
why, I don't know, thisis just me. I think that it's
just a woman thing. It wasso distractingly. I just kept laughing.
I just kept like, this isso funny to me, and it's not

(38:14):
supposed I don't think I'm supposed tobe laughing this heart at it. But
every other guy's patterned shirts and like, what time are we in? So
she did think that this was goingto be a sixties period film. Yeah.
And and the reason that she thoughtthat is that she read the script.
She wasn't told that she read thescript. She probably saw the words

(38:36):
excess acid and was like, well, clearly this is nineteen sixty. Oh
goodness. I don't mind the costumesbecause again, they seem very late nineties
to me. Boy oh boy,I saw a lot of that stuff when
I was when I was in mytwenties and thirties. In the original,
I don't understand why you wouldn't keepthe whole she goes from white to black
thing, like she was wearing thewhite broad Now she's turned to the dark

(38:58):
side after she takes the money,and so she put us on the black
bra. But in the remake,she's goes from whatever pink thing she's wearing
two green with an orange malibu Barbiedress. What is she wearing? What
is she wearing in the bedroom scene, I don't even remember. She puts
on this, she puts on thisbarbie doll pink little suit thing, and

(39:20):
then and then when she changes,she puts on this green lacy bra and
she puts the neon orange like tangerinecolored thing over it. And I found
it really funny when she whips outthat orange parasol. And also I noticed
before she left the house when shecloses the closet door and there's like a
bright orange sun hat hanging on thedoor, and I'm like, oh,

(39:44):
she's gonna grab her orange sun hat. And then I was like, no,
she didn't grab it. And thenwhen she whips out that parasol,
I'm like, should have grabbed hersun hat because parasols stud When I saw
that parasol, my notes just sayparasol exclamation point, really question mark.
I I have her assault in allcaps in my notes too. When she's
when she pulls that out at theat the car dealership, It's like,

(40:06):
Okay, it's sunny day, youput out the parasol. I mean,
is that a costume designer? Did? Did she bring that from home?
I don't know what it's the costdesigner, all right? And the buttons
on that that orange frock that shehas matched the shower curtain, which I
think that that's cool, but it'slike, but why, Like I don't

(40:28):
think that there was a lot ofrhyme or reason to the choices that they
made in a lot of the ninetiesstuff, except that like, cool,
the buttons matches the shower curtain.Not awesome. We're making a statement.
I don't know what the statement is. And I'm being a bit right now
because probably if Hitchcock had done that, I would have been like, oh,
in her buttons match the shower curtain. How genius. Like a little
bit. I'm sorry, I'm notgoing to be too hard. I'm gonna

(40:49):
shut up, but okay, Soback to nineteen sixty. You know,
there's the shot of the money onthe bed, and then there's the biggest
part of that scene is the decisionLee underplays underplays, Yes, she thinks
underplays and and I've loved Anne Hashand other things, but just too much,

(41:12):
too much. It's a lot ofeyrolling, her eye rolling as next
level. We'll get into that aswe go. But Janet Lee is like
pulling me in. She's reeling meinto her, into her, you know,
into her. I want to knowmore about her and what she's into
her mind. And that's it's almostlike an open invitation come into my head

(41:34):
and like, come on this journeywith me. And right before she does
make the decision to take the money, we get the first of many mirror
shots and Hitchcock loved mirrors, andso there's introducing this idea of like the
double and the double side of you, the shadow side, the devil on
your shoulder kind of thing. Andwhen I said that out loud to Selena
that as we were watching it,she just went like, oh yeah,

(41:59):
she was just get entranced into thisperformance. But with generally, you know,
it really is stellar. So andthis is where I wish that Gus
fan sand would have used his ownbecause he's an inventive filmmaker. I've seen
some of his early early movies Drugswhere Cowboy is fantastic. He has his
own visual language. I would haveloved to seen him just like, we're

(42:22):
going to do this movie, butI'm going to give you my language.
You know, maybe it's not mirrors, maybe it's something else. I think
that you're I think that we alreadytalked about his visual language. His visual
language is super close upcuts of fliesand like naked ladies in masks and cows.
We'll get there. Oh. Ithink that his I think that his
I know that Gus van Zandt directeda lot of music videos, and I

(42:45):
think that that does not serve himwell. Here because I think a lot
of it is. I do thinkthat he's trying to be avant guard.
But I also think that he's gotthis music video shorthand in mind, because
music videos are you got to besuper short. You gotta get a lot
across, so quick cuts and likeedgy shit in the nineties, and that's
what it's how it's reading to me. Right, put a Rob Zombie song

(43:06):
in. Yeah, there you go. He probably wanted to, so,
okay he did. Oh no,there's a Rob Zombie song in the movie.
Yes, that's right, there isthere actually is. Okay, when
we get there, called living Deadgirl, right, I mean, let's
not put her right on the nose, Yeah, put her right on there?
Ye? Well, okay, Soshe imagines in her head what John

(43:29):
Gavin is going to be saying,and in her mind, her only dread,
I think at this point, isthe disapproval of her lover right virganet
Lee, And as soon as shesees her boss, she's taken the first
step. The game has changed,and that music strikes you and we get

(43:52):
the first Bernard Herman sounds just goingright right to the core. We have
gone this far without talking about thegreat Bernard Herman. Yeah, I mean
that theme over the sawbast credits atthe beginning, I mean that is gorgeous,

(44:12):
absolutely gorgeous, so gorgeous. DannyElfman smartest thing he did was not
do a damn thing. Just rerecordit. Yeah, just rerecord It's it's
brilliant as is, he says.I think something like, if I'd done
anything to it, Bernard Herman wouldhave risen from the grave and like come
after him. And it's like yeah, and probably deservedly so. The resistance

(44:34):
to do anything special to that isjust that's the choice that you had to
make. And for a movie thatdoesn't always make the subtle choices, the
fact that he knew best to justleave this well enough alone helps the movie
immensely. But the original I mean, when that music here you just talked

(44:55):
about, hits, your heart startsto race a little bit because you're like,
oh, we are we are onthe clock. Now, we got
to get going to where we're going. And it's just the worry of her
in her mind changes in that momentbecause she hasn't. It's almost like,
okay, so we're going to getinto it. When we talk about Norman
with the dissociation, but I havemade choices. I think that everyone on

(45:17):
some level has experienced what it's liketo dissociate in a way and you might
not even know it, but likeif you've had something that feels like a
panic attack, or if you've hadsomething where all of a sudden you wake
up and you haven't been sleeping,and you're like, how did I get
here? What have I've been doing? Did I just do something crazy?
Was that me making that decision?I feel that this is where Marian falls

(45:38):
asleep. In the moment when themusic begins, we go into Alice in
Wonderland World, she is fully inthe looking glass. She is not in
reality and these it's almost like herhand is being guided and she's driving and
guaranteed you know when you drive andall of a sudden, WHOA, how
did I get here? That's Ifeel like happened to everyone because driving is

(45:59):
trans inducing in some way. ButI think that from this moment on,
Marian is not in reality. Andthe music, So before we started watching
Psycho, Selena and I listened tothe music. I was like referencing it,

(46:19):
and she said she didn't know whatit sounded like, and I said,
oh my god, Okay, beforewe watched Psycho, you're gonna listen
to the music. And we justsat there and listened to it with our
eyes closed, and she just couldnot get over the compelling feeling of dread
that it gave her. She's like, I don't think I've ever had music
transport me into a state of feelingsomething so quickly ever in my life.

(46:40):
And she was like, oh,I know, I know this. Yeah,
I've heard this, and like it'sin the zeitgeist. You know.
She hadn't seen the film, butshe knew, and she didn't like know
she knew, which is really speaksto the film. I want to talk
about the brilliance of James Remar asthe cop in the ninety eight version.
I love the fact that he choosesagain to be still and he does that

(47:07):
expertly, and that's not easy todo. You're gonna want to do more.
He does not do more, andit's very appreciative and it's very strong.
The guy I can't remember who's inthe original, but Mort Mills,
and he's not. He's not fullycopying Mort Mills. He's still doing his
own thing in the same the sameenergy. I don't know. This is
a perfect example though, of whatI mean when I say, um,

(47:30):
you can pay homage to the originalenergetically and not copy. The way that
Janet Lee reacts to the cop neverfails to just baffle me. It's like
the first instinct that you do whena cop knocks on your window is just
flee. That makes sense. Shehas start your engine, start starting your

(47:52):
engine? Right when when Janet Leedoes it, I just get the sense
that, yeah, she is notin reality. She's not thinking clearly.
She has entered some other reality thatshe wasn't expecting to be in. She
was like, I'm going to dickthis money and now straight shot to Fairvale,
not thinking I'm going to see theboss, gonna get too tired,

(48:12):
gonna be worrying about the voices inmy head, gonna have the cop in
my face, you know, andnow having to go ditch the car at
some point, not thinking that theseare things that she's going to have to
do. Yes. Yeah, Thedramatic irony is have I broken any laws?
Is there's nothing wrong? I'm Iacting like there's something wrong. It's
like, uh yeah, like likea lot, Yeah, you've broken a

(48:37):
law or two here's the difference.Genetly, I let go, and I
might want to like take her outof the car and sit her on the
side of the road while we whileI get some backup and you know,
maybe we start the car by theway, save her life in the process.
You're welcome because you're not going toend up at Debates motel. Yeah,

(48:58):
there's some foreshadowing there when he saysthere's any hotels in this area,
you know, to be just tobe safe, to be safe, go
to a motel. That's what yougotta do. It's yep. Anhih baffles
me because of her. She's liketotally she's bitching up the cop She's like
acting like a bitch and she's like, why are you. Oh, you're
troubling me. God, now you'renow you're making me late. I gotta
go, you know, Okay,white rabbit, right, yes, she

(49:21):
is the white rabbit. Oh mygod. So yes, jene Lee is
Alice. Then we have white Rabbit. I'm late. I'm late for a
very important date. Time to sayheld goodbye. When we get her pulling
away from the cop um in theoriginal, God, I just love the
way that you feel such relief whenyou see the cop take that exit,

(49:44):
and I haven't. I have atheory here even I'm gonna go. I'm
doubling down on my Alice in Wonderlandthrough the rabbit hole theory. I'm very
into fairy tales and everything, sothis is my read. My thinking is
that the cop exists. Yes,he does, like wake her up on
the side of the road, buthe pulls off of at the exit and

(50:07):
she keeps going and she takes anotherexit. Then he finds her again,
pulls across the street where she's atthe car dealership and watches her Allah Michael
Myers watching Laurie Strode in the classroomwindow. You know, it's so menacing
and so creepy, and she makesthe car deal the swap. Anyway,

(50:29):
at first, I remember when Ifirst first watched this film, I thought
to myself, what sense does thismake. He's watching you, He's going
to see the new car you get. What maybe wait until you're not being
followed and then get a car thathe doesn't know the license late of.
You know, like, what isthe point? There's no um, it's
pointless. The switch because he's theperson you're trying to switch from, is

(50:50):
watching you. When I look intothis more, I'm thinking, wait,
but he took that exit. Howdid he find her again? He's I
don't think he's there. I don'tthink that it makes I don't I think
that because it makes so little sense. I think you have to go with
the idea that she is aware,that she's not really being watched by a
cop, but she's the cop isin her mind. Honorable mention. John

(51:13):
Anderson, who plays California Charlie.Love this guy, Charlie. I was
just on another podcast, my friendspodcast called Cabot Cove Confab plug that if
you guys like Murder, She wrote, listeners you will love Cabot Cove Confab.
And we did an episode where Iguessed I guessed it. On there
we talked about an episode called Thursday'sChild with Vera Miles and California Charlie John

(51:39):
Anderson, and he has the bestold man voice. He kind of talks
like this, Oh I'm grad howare you doing it? Guys literally got
the little whistle, yes, Jeshica, don't don't crash. Oh yeah.
He's like he's got the greatest oldman boy. So I just love him

(51:59):
in this role. He is oneof my faves. I love how throughout
the whole original film, every bitpart you know, the cop, the
secretary, the boss, the carsalesman, everyone has such depth to their
character. They're just so lived in, you know. It's just didn't need
to happen. It did. Thesepeople didn't need to be as good as

(52:21):
they are to get the point across. But they they're great. It's a
It's an all star supporting cast forsure. I love the foreshadowing though,
and the first customer of the dayis always the most trouble because she's not
she's also someone else's first customer ofthe day. Dun, dun, dun.
You know that I like that.What I find baffling, just I

(52:43):
keep using the word when in relationto Ann has baffling, is that this
is her most subtle scene. Sheplays it so subtle, she's almost normal.
I think that. I think thatshe makes the guy who plays the
car salesman look like weird for beingsuspicious of her. She's got she's cool
as a cutecumberman. In this scene. It does not make sense to me

(53:06):
it I please make it make sensethat well. That that being said,
if you don't want to be noticedmaybe keep the pink parasol in the car,
maybe not wear your brightest orange outfit. And these loud ass earrings.
Her earrings are like two pounds.They look heavy and they're huge. Oh
my god. One thing that thatSelena and I were talking about when we

(53:30):
when we did the rewatches, shegoes, Man, that purse is just
not big enough for that envelope ofmoney. And I'm like, that's always
stressed me out, the way thather money is like hanging out of her
bag and she can barely stuff itin there. It's so it just plays
on the stress. It just allserves to make you so stressed for her.
But ann Haitia has given this thislike Malibu Barbie bright white, huge

(53:52):
like tote bag with these like fakewooden like bamboo handles. I'm like,
good lord, what do we do? Are we going Hawaii? We're going
to Hawaii is what we're doing withany She is all on the road again.
She's enjoying herself on this little roadtrip. Oh my god. Okay,
so let's keep it moving. Anythingmore to say about this scene?

(54:13):
No, I think we gotta wegotta get back in the car, and
it's got to start raining. Andit's gotta get We got to get off
that main road. I don't knowhow that happened, but we've got to
get there because right now and allall that voice over that she was just
talking about in that clip is startingto happen. You know. That's where
we get that that that first smileof hers maybe the first smile we've seen

(54:38):
her make in the entire movie,where she's imagining, you know, the
gross old man imagining his money's nowgone and blaming her for flirting with him
and all that sort of stuff,and she has that smile of like hot
creepers. This may not have beenthe best voice, but maybe now it's

(55:00):
the best choice because we got tostick it to him. You know,
this is her, She's going alittle mad sometimes, This is her going
a little mad moment. This isthat's the smile. And I think that
there's a reason that her this smileis kind of mirrored again with the mirroring
by Tony Perkins in the end,just showing that this can happen to anybody.

(55:23):
And like I said, this isthe reason that the film is so
compelling, because we all know whatit feels like to want to do that
so yeah, we got these thistime passing and I think it's interesting how
the cuts are coming. Before timewas passing in like fades, and now
we're cutting and this is the firsttime that we start to see this like

(55:45):
fast cut from rain to her face, to rain to her face. And
I remember the first time I sawit how much it stressed me out because
we weren't able to see through thatwindshield. It's just so not real.
Like this is what I mean whenI say this film is it's playing fair
and it's not at the same time. It's just it's not supposed to be
real. Rain is never that blinding. I mean, okay, sometimes it

(56:07):
really is. But this is notlike a what do you call it?
Um not a blizzard? What amI trying to say? This is not
a I guess it's a thunderstorm,but doesn't. Yeah, it's not.
I just don't think the way thatwe're being shown, it's like she doesn't
She's not aware of how much timeis passing, she's not aware of where

(56:28):
she is or what's going on.And Janet Lee's face is conveying to me
the disorientation that she's being literally blindedby her greed I guess, and the
rain foreshadows like the shower. Youknow, when she it's it's like she's

(56:49):
not able to see clearly literally rightnow, Um, because of the rain.
Yeah, it doesn't sound as likebrilliant when I'm just outlining it now,
but in the moment when you're watchingit, that rain is so stressful
right. Well, And we've alreadyset up the fatigue factor of what she's
doing because it's a it's a longdrive and we've already seen her have to
pull over once to take a nap, so we know that there's a long

(57:13):
drive ahead of her. And likeyou said before, the cop has planted
the seed of like, it's notsafe for you just to pull off to
the side of the road. Whydon't you find a nice safe motel?
Right? Take that nice that's yeah, all that stuff. Yeah, thanks
thanks cop. That's a that's agreat advice. Why aren't you still following

(57:34):
me? Ye? Keep following me? Yeah, tell me all the way
to Fairvale please, I might livethrough the night. Yeah. Uh.
And Haitia's driving going a little madgrin. Um. I was very impressed
with her up until the very endwhen she cheeses that smile and her her
it literally goes from ear to ear, and I think that this is one

(57:58):
moment where the driving scenes and maybethe car salesman too, I think is
a moment where it's to her disservicethat she hasn't seen the film, because
I think that she's missing out ona key thing that is baked into the
film, that is supposed to bethere, and that is only shown in
the performance. You can't get iton paper, you know, you can't

(58:20):
get it just by reading the script. So much of the of what is
the character of Marion is not writtenbecause it's just coming from Janet Lee's fucking
face, you know, so right, it's clear she doesn't know, she
doesn't know the reference. It's thedifference between what these two actors are bringing
to that part. And it's alsothe difference to what the directors are allowing
those actors to bring to that part. Gus Van Sant needed to learn the

(58:42):
word less less less and look,the acting is not the only problem with
this with the with the remake,but it's it's that it ain't helping.
Nope, all right, I wouldlike to check into the motel. All
righty, let's do it. Oh, dirty nice. Oh, we have

(59:06):
twelve and five, twelve cabins,twelve vacancies. Can I get any room
besides Cavin one? Please? God, we're twenty eight We're twenty eight minutes
into the movie, and we're finallygetting Norman Bates. Twenty eight minutes into
one hundred and nine minute movie,we are finally getting who is going to

(59:28):
be our villain. That's a longtime to wait for the villain to show
up. Yeah, and he makesthat choice. One of the best moments
that in that scene is when he'sreaching for other keys. Yes, he
looks around and sees her, andit's like he knows what happens in cabin

(59:50):
one. Yeah, that's where thepeepeholes. You can see, though his
first instinct is to reach for cabinlike six or something, is to go
for It's like right away, youcan you can see. And I don't
know if that was I'm sure thatthat was a Hitchcock told him to do
that. I don't know if it'sin the screenplay, but he's clearly Norman
is struggling with his urges and he'strying to be good. I think that

(01:00:12):
that's what that shows, and hejust can't help himself, but he goes
for cabin one. When Sam andLila end up there later, they get
what cabin ten nine, one ofthe farthest away. Yeah, right,
he doesn't care. He Yeah,he wants to get them as far away
from cabin one as you possibly can. Right. Cabin one is a choice,
yeah's choice, Yes, And he'sstruggling with his choice. Every time

(01:00:37):
I see that now, it's likeyou could have gone the other way.
That really does kind of seal herfate. Yeah, And he does say
how close she is to fair Vale, and I'm and I know we're all
thinking, oh God, just getback in the car and keep driving.
I'm of two minds on this,like, yes, I want her to
live, yes, but also thefact that she doesn't go to Fairvale and

(01:01:00):
she stops here, even knowing howclose she is, she comes to the
conclusion of what she's going to do. No, this isn't me, this
isn't who I am. I amnot this person. I'm not going to
be that. I'm not going tomake that choice. And she kind of
redeems herself in her own eyes.So if she hadn't stopped at the Bates
Motel, she wouldn't have gotten thatredemption just for herself, for her own

(01:01:21):
private like, I'm at peace withmyself because she hasn't actually done it yet,
but she's intending to go back andright her wrong. And I think
that that's big for her as acharacter, and it does give me a
little makes me feel a little bitbetter. I guess about the way that
she dies, because at least shedies with a clean, conscious conscience to

(01:01:43):
herself, you know, in herown mind. Let's talk Anthony Perkins.
He makes his movie entrance right hereas Norman Bates, skipping down the house
and greeting her like a like acheerful young man. Cheerful young man with
his trusty umbrella. Oh yeah,see, you don't have to bring the

(01:02:04):
pink parasol with Anthony Perkins around,because he's got an umbrella ready to go.
You're sor right he is. Sothere is something about his entrance that,
if you don't know the jokes ofthis movie, if you don't know
how this goes, he looks likethe hero. He looks like the guy
who's tall, dark and handsome.He's the guy that maybe if this is

(01:02:28):
a film noir, this is theguy that maybe Marian leaves Sam for Yes,
we're talking about acting styles here alot, but he just plays it
like the most friendliest person and hedoes not give away any thing at all
in this first scene. Nothing togive away. His acting translates to now

(01:02:49):
acting the way he underplays everything,the way I mean just everything, his
mannerisms, his energy, he's he'sstraight out of like you know, modern
day television. To an extent.Janet Lee has that about her as well,
But no, Tony Perkins is onanother playing field and he almost has

(01:03:12):
this uncannyness about him in the waybecause he's very pretty, he's very like
attractive, but he almost looks likeplasticy or something like. He has this
alien quality about him, the waythat he plays the character like he's from
another planet. In the book,Norman Bates is forty, pudgy, balding,

(01:03:32):
alcoholic. To make that change,and Stefano said that when he started
to describe it, who he wantedto a Norman Bates to be, And
Alfred Hitchcock said, well, thatsounds like Anthony Perkins, and there he
was there like great and the factthat they got that that person to do
it is fantastic. But it's it'san important change because there has to be.

(01:03:57):
If it's pudgy, middle aged likeif Ernest nine fresh off an oscar
back in those days. If he'splaying Norman Bates, he's a murderer.
He is a straight up murderer,and you know it from the beginning,
and you know it, and youyou suspect him from from the jump.
If it's Anthony Perkins, you don'texpect it until maybe about halfway through the

(01:04:17):
parlor scene, and then you startto think, maybe it's maybe I need
to keep going to fair Veil.Yeah, right, yeah, yeah,
and yeah, Tony Perkins just bringsso much to the role because of how
much he knows about a person likethis. You know, he was living
a double life himself as a closetedgay man in the sixties, and I

(01:04:38):
think that that brings a lot tothis just naturally without him, just with
him breathing, existing as who heis, it comes it jumps off at
you. You know, he knowsabout this and it's tragic. But it's
one of those things as an actorwhere you say, hey, use it,
use it for the role, youknow. Yeah, the concept of

(01:04:59):
this hands charismatic sweet On the outsideguy who's a killer on the inside.
It was revolutionary at the time.I mean this, people were losing their
shit over this guy's like right,it seems so yeah done now, but
yeah it was. It was crazyat the time. That's one of the
horror movie tropes that definitely survived fromthis movie is cast somebody against type and

(01:05:20):
let that person be the evil oneand know and fewer people will see it
coming. Yes, So okay,now we talk. Let's talk about our
modern day counterpart to this role here, mister Vince Vaughn. I'm gonna say,
I'm gonna say. I'm gonna saysomething nice about Vince Vaughn. Yeah,

(01:05:43):
impossible task. I applaud him forthis impossible for taking on this impossible
task. I do, I reallydo. Yeah for saying yes to this.
And then he's had a great careersince then. He did not get
hurt by this movie. He wentback to doing what he does best,
which is the handsome comedic performance that'shis gear. There's a movie that came
out a year before this called ClayPigeons, which I mentioned sort of before

(01:06:11):
as maybe a counterpart to Frenzy becauseit's about two people Vince Vaughan and Joaquin
Phoenix, and they one of themis a serial killer and the other one's
getting blamed for his killings. Sothat might be the way to go.
But in that movie, he's playinghe's the serial killer spoiler alert for Clay

(01:06:34):
Pigeons. But he's playing him likehe's in Swingers. He's playing at slick,
he's talks funny, he's seducing women'she's being Vince Vaughan. In this
one. They give him some momentsand I wrote down one of these lines.
You have something most girls don't have. There's not a name for it,

(01:06:54):
but it's something that puts a personat ease. He tells this to
Marian Crane. That's not in theoriginal movie. He's flirting with Marian Crane.
Norman Bates should not be flirting withanybody that's not Norman Bates. Norman
Bates is a repressed individual. Heis not flirting with anybody. You have

(01:07:15):
something that most girls don't. Imean, that's an opening line at a
bar. You know that is notThat is not what guy who's been hold
up with his mom. You're notlaying down that line if you're Norman Bates
if you're Vince Vaughan, you're layingdown that line. This is where the
problem, This is where the problemwith separating. You know, when we

(01:07:38):
talk about Marian Crane, we're talkingabout Janet Lee. When we're talking about
Norman Bates, we're talking about TonyPerkins. When we're talking about ninety eight,
we're talking about Vince Vaughan, notthe character exactly exactly. Yeah,
he has a totally different energy.Sadly, there's nothing birdlike about him in

(01:08:00):
the way that Tony Perkins is veryHe's got this daintiness, this feminine energy,
almost like a delicate fragileness. Andhe also Tony Perkins has the ability
to just flip on a dime andin a second with a look in his
eye, He's a totally different person, someone who oos to be feared.
He's got the same face, butit's something behind the eyes that just shifts.

(01:08:20):
With Vince Vaughn, he cannot shift, I don't think merely because of
his energy being grounded, heavier.I'm not even talking about his build,
although it is much bigger than TonyPerkins. He's just got this weight to
him. He carries his bones throughlife more sure that more grounded masculine.

(01:08:44):
I guess quote unquote energy. Hewears Norman like a personality. He wears
the Norman personality like a costume.I feel, yeah, like as the
character. I feel like he's actingthe whole time, not like he's not
genuinely afraid of his mother. Inever believe that there is a mother with
him. I oh interesting, youknow. And I don't know how Tony

(01:09:05):
Perkins does it. I don't knowhow he does it. But when he's
cleaning up, I just always getthe sense that he's doing it for someone
else. I don't know how youconvey that in a silent scene cleaning up,
but I get that. I don'tknow. There's just a total energetic
difference between the two. And theless said about Vince Vaughn's giggle, the
better. Oh lord, but canI just play it real quick? Oh

(01:09:29):
boy, see see what we did. We shouldn't be doing this. This
is the terrible idea. This isthe worst idea you've ever had. Oh
god, oh god, everybody,it's gonna giggle for us, guys,
It's going to happen. I justsop, and there's hangers in the closet
and they're stationary with Bates Martel writtenon it, just in case you want

(01:09:50):
to make your friends back home envious. I did not know when I when
I watched the ninety eight version,I was like, man, I love
that Tony Perkins doesn't do that laughthing, but guys, he does it.
Does hold on a second? Yeah, well yeah, mattress is soft
and there's hangers in the closet andstationary with Bates Motel printing on it in

(01:10:15):
case you want to make your friendsback home feel envious. I was shocked
to hear that he does the laughand he makes it sound so organic.
It's like I didn't even know itwas there because I didn't. You're not
supposed to notice it. You're notsupposed to be distracted by it. It
was so I was cracking. I'msorry, you're not supposed to think that
that's funny, and it was.I just don't know. I don't know

(01:10:38):
where that came from in Vince Vaughn'smind, as that would be like a
good choice. It's just like Isaid, it looks like he's acting,
you know, it looks like he'splaying a role. Yeah, and again
it's I admire him for trying.He's probably giggling in the same exact places
that Tony Perkins did, but itsounds so inauthentic when he does it.

(01:10:58):
Yeah, and part of that,part of that, so the delivery.
But I think also there's a layerof mistrust on this from watchers who know
that this is not the real thingright exactly. We got like obviously the
rain, he doesn't hear her andall the rain, kind of like she
doesn't hear him coming in the bathroom. He can say the word bathroom,

(01:11:18):
and he does this thing where heopens the window. Now, I think
that this might have been written intothe script. When he says it's stuffy
in here, I'll get it stuffylike yes, stuff a bird. He
opens the window, and I don'tI don't know if it was just because
they need that window to be openso that she can hear mother like yelling.

(01:11:40):
But I feel like he does itdeliberately so that she can hear you
know what I mean. I feellike it was it's it's a choice more
than just a practical contrivance because thescript needs it to happen. I think
that when he meets when he meetsher, he gives her cabin one.
Not necessarily because he wants to killher. I think because he wants to

(01:12:00):
She's nice, she's warm, she'sgot an energy. I'm attracted to her.
Maybe she could be the one.Maybe I could take her home to
meet mom and see if she getsalong with mom, and maybe she could
be my lady, my girlfriend,my wife, whatever, you know.
I think it's not unrealistic to thinkthat Norman Bates wants to find a mate,

(01:12:21):
And so the parlor scene really doeskind of feel like a first date,
Like he makes her dinner and invitesher over and gets her in his
like see when I see my birds, like this is my bird collection,
and this is what I do fora living, Like here's a little bit
about me. What do you thinkof that? And also I'm like a
huge mama's boy. Is that okaywith you? Like what do you think?

(01:12:42):
And as soon as she is notokay, that's when mother is just
like nope, and not only nope, but nope, now you die.
I think when he chooses cabin one, I think he knows what happens with
women that are in cabin one.I think he's cleaned up Cavin one before.
Oh sure, there's no other reasonyou can put her in Cavin two.

(01:13:03):
You can still go see her.It's right next door, but there's
no hole, there's nothing to lookat. He wants to look at her
well, to do some bird watching. Oh, we can get into all
the We can get to all thebird stuff if you want it right now.
All the bird stuff is great.Although I have a I have a
new bird thing that I've never seenwritten down because everybody talks about the crane

(01:13:29):
and she's from Phoenix and all thestuffed birds. And he's also eating candy
corn originally branded not called candy corn. It was originally branded called chicken feet.
No way that that was what candycorn was originally called. Oh my
god. Yes, So we've gotall sorts of bird stuff going on,
so it makes more sense now,Yeah, why why because in the sixties

(01:13:53):
it was probably still called that.There's some amazing you know, YouTube videos
and articles that I have linked thati've for instant everything. And there's also
a lot of doubles in this scene. So this is my favorite scene,
the parlor scene, because this isone of my favorite scenes ever on film.

(01:14:13):
This was the scene that I gotto do in my acting class because
every frame is a masterpiece. Itis not only visual storytelling, but the
dialogue, the acting. Every singlebit is on point. Not a half
second is lacking. It is oneof the most full and perfect scenes I've
ever seen, you know. Andwhat's so shocking is that it's twelve minutes

(01:14:34):
long. And in Hitchcock films they'renot dialogue heavy. He wasn't a big
fan of dialogue. He always sawit as a last resort, like he
would thought that he thought it waslazy to rely on a lot of dialogue.
He was famous for like very longtakes, long shots, long zooms
or you know, tight close ups, judiciously, you know, extreme cutting.

(01:14:57):
You know. So whenever he wouldalways try to to tell the story
visually before he would resort to dialogue. And he would always say, when
we tell the story in cinema,we should resort to dialogue only when it
is impossible to do otherwise. Normanbrings her milk right, and he apologizes,
mother is in herself today, foreshadowingI wish you could apologize for other

(01:15:17):
people. And you see the reflectionof him in the glass on his left
hand side, and it's the sameeffect again mirrorred opposite side with Marian right
before she enters the parlor room.There's also like a mirror in the lobby
area where you can see Marion andNorman's faces shown, like when she's signing

(01:15:38):
the register and everything. So they'reequal opposites, right, like dark and
light the same sides, I mean, the different sides of the same coin.
And so once Marian enters into Norman'sworld, her desires that she has
from the beginning are like weirdly met. And this is articulated in a YouTube

(01:15:59):
video about understanding the uncanny or something. It's beautifully articulated. How she gets
to eat her sandwich that she couldn'teat on her lunche break with Sam,
you know, under the respectful eyeof like mother watching her. Marian gets
consumed by her double which is Norman, and Norman gets consumed at the end

(01:16:21):
by his double mother. So it'slike a Roboro kind of thing, like
I sure, never ending cycle,you know, And this is where it
begins. And I have to quotefrom this article where Laura Mulvey has she
wrote a book called Death twenty fourtimes a second, and she says,

(01:16:41):
for Freud, the uncanny was rootedin two meanings of the German word heimlich.
The first definition was to do withthe homely or the unfamiliar, while
the other had to do with thesecret, or something that has to be
concealed and kept out of public sight. Mulvey notes how those definitions manifest and
psycho. The home is the Bateshouse, obviously, and the secret is
Marian's murder. So Freud also identifiedthe body of the mother as one's first

(01:17:04):
home, which was once familiar butbecomes less so with the passage of time.
Freud, Mulvey notes, wrote uncannyNature, wrote about the uncanny nature
of corpses, which the mummified MissusBates is one of them. The film
ends with this famous like shot ofNorman or Mother, you know, with
a blanket wrapped around her shoulders,and the voice of Mother tells us that

(01:17:26):
she had to take over because Normanwas trying to blame her for the murders.
And then fly lands on Norman's hand, and Mother tells us that she's
knocking to squatter it away, andI hope they're watching. They'll see and
they'll know, and they'll say shewouldn't even harm a fly, And the
image begins to fade and one seesthe shadow of Mother appear in Norman's face.
While Norman may have entered the worldby way of Mother's body, Mother

(01:17:48):
has now entered the world by wayof Norman and taken over. So it's
a great article. Seriously, it'samazing read that you can see the struggle
within Norman to not make that choicethat he but but he just can't help
it and Mother takes over. Howmuch does he know? I mean,

(01:18:10):
at what point does he really disassociateand think his mom is still alive?
Does he ever go into that roomand see the corpse and go, oh,
yeah, I've got a corpse?Or is it consistently she's alive or
is in moments that he dresses upand has the conversations and all that sort
of stuff. The great thing inthis parlor scene is that you don't know.

(01:18:32):
Yeah. And the great thing aboutthis parlor scene is it's still really
about Marian. It's still really abouther. This is still her movie.
We have not switched protagonist or protagonistyet. This is still Marrion Crane's movie.
His oddness in those moments, Imean, we know now what it
all means, but in the moments, he's just a weird guy who loves

(01:18:56):
his mom a lot, right,and she's and she is seeing that as
I think of like, well,I give there, but for the grace
of God, go I I couldbe this weirdo too. I better get
back to Phoenix. Yeah, I'mwondering from you, as somebody who played
this scene in an acting class,did you have a moment in that scene

(01:19:18):
where you knew I got to getback to Phoenix. I mean, well,
for me, the moment of shiftbecause of the way that the other
actor was playing it was when hesaid, a boy's best friend is his
mother. Because the way the otheractor that I was working with played it
was defense and almost confrontational in thatmoment a little bit. He wasn't going

(01:19:42):
Vince Vaughn level, Like, notthat I think that Vince Vaughn is confrontational
on that line, but he wasn'taggressive, I guess I'm trying to say,
but he had a for him,this actor that I worked with.
The twist the flip came there,a boy's best friend is his mother.
When I started to ask about thefriends, don't you have friends? Don't
you go out and see other people. He was like, why would I

(01:20:05):
do that? Like, why wouldI want? No? I have my
mother like, are you crazy?What's wrong with you to suggest something like
that? How dare you? Youknow? Uh? In the ninety eight
remake, when um, when AnneHaye asks him that question and he responds
a voice best friend as his mother, she rolls her eyes and she puts

(01:20:27):
down the sandwich and she's like,oh god, man, I'm just again
baffled. What are you doing?By the way, for everybody who's listening
on at home, every time everytime Jade says in the ninety eight version
her she gets this huge grin onher. I mean, it's bigger than

(01:20:48):
it's bigger than anything. And shehas a huge grimming face because it's like,
I cannot contain my my astonishment atthe choices that they're making. It
is it is just if you ifyou could see it. No, no,
apologies not accepted, because that's that'sexactly how I feel every time you
say, like the ninety eight version, it's like, what are you doing?

(01:21:14):
And look again, it's like,because we have so much for knowledge
of what's going to happen in thisscene, the best thing to do would
be to underplay it to be again, go underneath everything, because you're either
getting an audience in ninety eight whoknows this movie and knows the beats and

(01:21:34):
knows what's going to happen and knowsall the twists, or gonna get somebody
who says, psycho, I haveno idea what that is, and they're
going for you know, because it'sa horror movie in the like horror movies,
you know, which audience are youplaying to? I would think you'd
want to play to the audience hasnever seen it before, because then the
surprises are going to be strong.But they seem to be they seem to

(01:21:56):
be playing it for people who've alreadyseen the movie. I'm I mean,
just to take a step back fora second. The poster is the shower
scene. The poster is the showerscene. You're giving away the centerpiece of
the movie. Check in, Relax, take a shower is the tagline.

(01:22:18):
And then you've got an Haese orsomebody who probably is Anhite with blood rising
up, fingers coming out is bloodon the fingers, and it's like you're
giving away, yeah, the thing, just because we know how it ends.
Does that give you license Vince Vaughnto be so obvious in how it
ends, you know, yeah,yeah, where you were talking about where

(01:22:39):
that switch came for you when youdid the scene. I think that I
was thinking about the line A sunis a poor substitute for a lover,
which is that I did not rememberthat line. Yeah, it's so bizarre
that it's not It's not that it'snot a substitute. It's a poor substitute.

(01:23:00):
So, oh yeah, it isa substitute. Play It is a
substitute. It's just not a greatsubstitute. It's a poor substitute. That
line, That line, along withthe fifteen miles to Fairvale line, are
the two lines that gave me shiverswhen I watched when I watched the original
again, I forgot in watching thisthe way that Tony Perkins is so boyish

(01:23:24):
and the way that he calls himselfa boy. Like I know, I've
done the scene and that was avery major line in this, but the
way that he calls himself a boywhen he's just so clearly outgrown that term.
It the fragility, the sadness.So Janet Lee is watching him and
she's feeling for him, and becausewe are identifying as her, and she

(01:23:45):
is feeling for him. We therebyfeel for him, We feel terrible for
him. Right then he goes intothe private traps line. Well, then
then he says, the rain didn'tlast long. The rain has now stopped.
I think that that is the moment, you know, I can see
clearly now the rain is gone.When the rain stops, when she wakes

(01:24:06):
up, and it's I think it'sI think it's the trapped speech that gets
her to wake up. We're allin our private traps, clamped in them,
and none of us can never getout. We scratch and claw only
at the air, only at eachother, and for all of it we
never budge an inch. And thenyeah, sometimes we were born into the
traps. I was born in mind. I don't mind it anymore, And
she says, oh, but youshould, you should mind it. It's

(01:24:29):
the first time that they are nolonger the same side, are different sides
of the same coin. Marion hastraded one trap for another. Right,
Yes, the questions will always comeup, and I'm glad it's not an
answer. It's not an answerable questionof where he's at in far as how
much of him his mother at thispoint and how much of this is still

(01:24:50):
Norman. It's an unanswerable question atthis point because of the subtlety that he
plays it with, because you're notsupposed to know in this moment. Now
we can analyze it, but butin that moment, you're not supposed to
know that mother is any part ofhim. You're just supposed to go,

(01:25:11):
well, this is an odd duck. And the part where he puts his
hand up and he says on defyher, and that's almost foreshadowing because it
mirrors his hand, you know,when he's so cute and he's so sweet
when he puts I'd like to I'dlike to defy her. He looks so
innocent, and just in the sameway that she looks so innocent when she
puts her hand up and reaches forthat shower curtain, you know, and

(01:25:34):
you get you really do get thesense with Tony Perkins, like there is
a mother in that house up there. And he puts his hand up like
I swear I hear by swear onthis Bible, you know, like he's
taking an oath to himself and theuniverse, and he puts his hand up.
You just know that there is someoneelse pulling the strings with him,

(01:25:56):
and he is under someone else's thumb. Well, and it would be at
this point in watching the movie innineteen sixty that I would look at my
watch and go, this movie iscalled Psycho, right, I mean,
yeah, we should we should begetting a psycho at some point. Yeah,
honey, how long do we haveto babysitter for? Because I haven't

(01:26:20):
seen a psycho yet? Can weget a psycho? Psycho's coming. But
it's so great that up to thispoint, who knows who it is?
Who knows? I mean, he'splaying it so naturally, so wonderfully,
childlike versus child dish. I thinkmaybe when he starts to peep through the

(01:26:42):
hole and the way they light thatscene with the birds over him and he
kind of looking side to side.I don't know who he's looking for,
but it's like he's looking side toside, and then it's like picture comes
off the wall. This is thechance. Take that off, get that
look, and that's it. Imean, that's to me, that seals

(01:27:02):
her fate. As soon as hedoes that, it's game over. So
okay, I you think so youso you think you're saying that that's the
moment when he makes the choice tokill her. I think it's the moment
when Mom gets inflamed. I don'tthink it happens before that. I think

(01:27:24):
that's the point where Mom is like, you're the dirty dirty. It was
bad enough that you're having you're havingdinner with a strange woman, but now
you're peeping in on her and havingunclean thoughts, not as unclean as Vince
Vaughn has, but you're still havingOh my god, I just for a
second, the unbuckling sound, yeah, yeah again, text subtext we don't

(01:28:00):
need, we don't need it spelledout. He's aroused by her. That's
why he put her in cabin one. That's we get all that. That's
why he's being nice to her.He likes her, he thinks he's pretty
whatever. We know all this,the unbuckling of the pants, don't We
don't need that, and all theother sounds that accompany that. We just
we don't need that. Oh,I can assume that he was attracted to

(01:28:20):
her. We can. We don'tneed all the other other stuff. I
know, it's nine to ninety eight. You could do it. Everybody's got
a little Quentin Tarantino in their gamenow, so we can just we can
do we can do these things,but you don't have to do these things.
But real quick, I want totalk about this moment when you think
he because you think that that's themoment he decides to kill her. So

(01:28:41):
I think I think mother first comesout when he leans into that frame and
he says an institution. He startsto They clack their thick tongues, they
shake their heads and suggest us sovery delicately. Even the way that sounds,
it sounds like an older woman talking. They clack their thick tongues and
shake their heads and saying just oh, so very delicately. You know,

(01:29:04):
he's like he's got this mother soundtoo. I'm all of a sudden and
I think that's Mother talking. Ithink Mother is talking right now, and
and and justifying herself. She goesa little mad. Sometimes we all go
a little mats, I haven't youand she's like, yep, I have,
and speaking of which off I goum. But then and then I

(01:29:27):
think Norman is struggling again comes backin. He repeatedly asks her to call
him Norman. When she says thankyou, he goes Norman. I think
I think that that's his way oflike actualizing who he is. If you
call me Norman, maybe I'll stayNorman, Like can you call me by
my name please, Like I'm trying. I'm trying to stay here with you.
I don't want to go. Idon't want this to I don't want

(01:29:48):
the change to occur. And Ithink that um when he's when he's shown
looking at her and by the way, the painting is like a voyeuristic painting.
It's Susannah and the Elders or whatever, and Hitchcock chose a version of
that painting where they are like grabbingat her and like not. That painting

(01:30:10):
is very famous and it's been donein many different ways, but Hitchcock chose
one that's like very aggressively, likemen are about to rape this woman basically.
So so after the people moment,he goes back upstairs, and he
has this moment where he almost goesupstairs but stops and he goes into sits
in his lonely little kitchen, andhe like ponders, I think that he's
fighting the mother. He's like,I don't want to go upstairs and put

(01:30:33):
on the dress and wig, Idon't want to mom, don't make me
do that. I don't want tothat. That scene in the kitchen reminds
me of when I was trying toquit smoking. You'd be out of cigarettes,
you'd be out of cigarettes, andyou're like, Okay, I'm not
going to go buy any any morecigarettes. I'm fine. And you sit
there and you tap your tap yourleg and you and you tap the table

(01:30:53):
a little bit, and you're like, well, one more pack's not going
to kill me. Come on,let's just go get another pack of cigarettes.
And let's just do this. Thebrilliance of this movie is to not
tell us. Don't tell us whenit's Norman and when it's Mom, don't
tell us that it's coming over.There's clues. Your reading of it is
perfectly valid. My reading of it, I think is perfectly valid too.

(01:31:15):
And it's a matter of moments ofwhere they're doing it. But keep it,
keep it vague, you know,don't play the moment. Let let
the let the audience figure out wherethey think that switch comes, because they
don't even know at this point innineteen sixty that there's a switch coming.
Yeah. Yeah, it's just it'scrazy. Because when I was watching it

(01:31:39):
with my friend, with Selena.She I kept looking at her face and
waiting for her to go, oh, I get it, okay, he's
the mother, but no, itnever came. Like, guys, that's
great. Picture it in nineteen sixtymovie theater. You're sitting there, you're
eating your Razzles and your in latersor whatever candy they had in the sixties,

(01:32:01):
and you're watching Psycho, right,you think that he's a good guy
at this point, like you donot suspect, and then I'm sorry,
I'm watching I'm watching Vince Vaughn,and I just don't see any sort of
struggle within him. That's all Ican say. I don't get that he
is thinking of the character. VinceVaughn is thinking of the character in terms

(01:32:25):
of I have two people in myhead. I think that he is thinking
in terms of I'm a villain andI've got to hide it because the script
says I don't get the reveal untilpage sixty or whatever. You know,
Like that's just right, yeah,And I hate to put it that way
and like belittle an actor's performance,but it just doesn't go any deeper than

(01:32:49):
that for me watching Vince Vaughn.By the way, that scene in the
house where he goes back up tothe house and he thinks about going upstairs,
then he goes in the kitchen instead. First scene in the movie without
Marian Crane. Yeah, first scenein the movie without Marian Crane. We
have been with Marian Crane for fortyfive minutes, even in the people scene,

(01:33:14):
she's there, great forty five minutes, and we get our first and
that's where I think we have ourswitch of protagonists because now even though we
go back to Marian while she's doingthe ledger and she's ripping up the pages
and she's getting in the shower,that is where this becomes the Norman Bates
movie. Yeah, because now weare no longer with her. Now it's

(01:33:38):
only a minute, it's only oneminute long, but it's it's showing that
we're going to be paying attention tosomebody that's not Marian Crane. Yeah.
Yeah, and we are in thevoyeuristic position with him like we were in
the car with Marian. So yeah, we're starting the transition there for sure.
Yeah. So some things I gotto point out in the remake.

(01:34:00):
Why is Anne Anne Hash not eatingthat sandwich? She waves that sandwich around
like a fricking flag and it pissesme off so bad because he says,
Oh, it's nothing to discuss whileyou're eating, and I screamed, she's
not, she's holding this. Andthen and then when he says a boy's
best friend is his mother, shegoes, oh god, and she throws
the sandwich down. I'm like,you are so rude to him right now?

(01:34:23):
Why are you being so rude tohim? There's just again baffling because
Janet Lee's performance is so warm andcompassionate. None of that with Anne,
none of that. She's like bitchy. I wonder if that's a if that's
an actor's decision of like, youknow, if I take a bite in
this scene, I'm gonna take likeseventy bites because the scene's going to be

(01:34:46):
over and over again, so it'slike, you know, it's like spit
it out, like come on,man. I love the way that Janet
Lee she chopped and munched and hershe had food in her mouth in every
line. I loved that. Ilove that, and I didn't know I
loved it until I saw it withoutit and I remember doing that scene myself.

(01:35:08):
It said on the page, andlike this is what I'm saying,
Guys, I hadn't seen the moviewhen I acted that scene, and I
so got the sense compassion for thisguy. I felt so bad for him.
And I'm not just patting myself onthe back as an actor. I
also was very sure to eat becauseshe's hungry. I knew the backstory was
I had been driving all day andone of the lines that I that she

(01:35:29):
says, um is the only thingI want more than to go to sleep
is to have food or something,you know. Um. I also did
think that there is a one laughand another thing. I gotta say,
Vince Vaughn, you're doing great work. Like I'm not mad at his at
his acting. I'm just it's notNorman Bates. We gotta we gotta,

(01:35:51):
we gotta get to the showers.I gotta get to the showers. It's
shower time. Is it time tolike? I feel like, yeah,
I feel like I feel like I'vebeen like I've been in this room with
birds around me and stink and andI'm pretty sure that that painting on the

(01:36:14):
wall moved. Well, never mind, I'm going to take a shower.
Anyway. That bird looked at me, did he bet his little eye.
I want to read something here.This is from one of my favorite writers.
This is William Goldman. He's ascreenwriter who wrote Misery, he wrote
Princess Bride, he wrote Bookcasting SundanceKid. He has this great book called

(01:36:36):
Adventures in the screen Trade where hetalks about screenwriting. And he says that
you know, Psycho is his favoriteHitchcock film. Um, and he says,
my guess is when the movie ismentioned, everyone first thinks of the
shower scene. I don't know ifthere are many more famous sequences in modern

(01:36:56):
films. The impact, the shockof it all, from first stab to
last it runs seventeen seconds to repeat. Screen time is most mysterious. The
screen time instructure in this whole movieis the stuff that I really resonated with
me when I watched it. Thistime is how Hitchcock schedules all of this

(01:37:19):
stuff. How he a lots onlythis much time for this scene and then
he's gone a lot, a lotmore time. Like you were talking about
the parlor scene. Twelve minute parlorscene. That's a long scene, YEA
for a movie that has had noaction really in it so far. I
think we could do an entire podcast. I would love to do an entire

(01:37:40):
podcast just on the parlor scene,and that would still be like a four
hour episode. There is so much, it's every second, every milliseconds filled.
Send me, send me the sendme the sides, and we'll recreate
the scene. We'll do an actingclass, yes, remake of it all

(01:38:02):
right, so only only you haveto play Marion and I get to be
Norman. That's my dream. Iwas going to say that would be a
very interesting way of doing it,a very interesting way. Yes. Yeah,
So we're back at the We've we'veleft Norman Bates up at the house.
We're back at the motel. We'vegot to you know, Marion Crane

(01:38:23):
has made this decision. She's goingto go back to Phoenix. She's going
to fix this thing. She's writingin her ledger, trying to figure out
how much money she owes after buyingthe car and everything else. She's like,
well, how how we're going todo this? I don't know why.
She just doesn't keep going to Fairvale. I'm fifteen miles to Fairvale.
It's like, just just go there. I've a ache for her to just

(01:38:45):
go to Sam And you know,as much of a stiff that John Gavin
is Sam is a stand up guy, and Sam will help her. Yeah,
right to go to Sam, Goto Sam. But instead she's got
to take a shower. I thinkyou have less to say about the shower
scene. Yeah. No, Ihave a lot to say about the shower,
but you start start her off.So I actually it's funny because I

(01:39:11):
don't have a ton to say aboutthe shower scene. And here's why.
It has been parodied and copied andrecopied and re recopied so many times.
And it has been I mean there'sa whole documentary eighty fifty two, yes,
that is almost almost just dedicated tothat shower scene, and you can

(01:39:32):
find people who are breaking it downmoment to moment, bit bit bit to
bitum. The two things that reallystood up to me were the smile on
her face. It's the first genuinehappy smile on her face. Yeah,
the first time she's really relaxed.Yeah. And it's not a it's not

(01:39:55):
a oh I'm getting back at somebody'ssmile. It's not a I pulled one
over on somebody's smile. It isa smile of relief. It is a
smile of I am going to fixeverything. Yeah. The other part,
the scariest part of this scene tome is not the knifing. It is
when she is in the bottom righthand corner of the screen curtain behind her.

(01:40:21):
Yeah, that door opens, right, your eye goes up to that
left hand corner where there's just nothingthere and you're expecting something to fill that
space, and boy does that happen? Right? How is it still so
scary when we see it coming.It's like, it's crazy. I imagine

(01:40:41):
a moment at the end of this. You know, at the very end
of that scene, she's up againstthe wall, she's still breathing, and
then you know, the shower curtaingoes down, and I wonder if audience
is in nineteen sixty we're thinking,how's she getting out of this? Because

(01:41:04):
she surely will. Right. Ofcourse, she's the start of the She's
the start of the film. Thisis our mother. At this point,
we are identifying with her as thisis who, this is us, this
is mother. This is like shecannot die, of course not, that's
not how it happens. In soit's like, is Sam going to come
in in safer? Has that copbeen following her the whole time? And

(01:41:26):
is going to rush in and safer. Is Norman Bates going to run in
and save her? Because everyone knowwhat everyone thinks, we don't know who
it is. You're outlining it rightthere. Norman Bates, I think has
been has been built up in theaudience's mind in first first viewing ever in
nineteen sixty. Um, he's thismeek guy under the thumb of a terrible
woman, this awful mother who's we'veheard her voice and it's loud and booming,

(01:41:51):
and it carries all the way downfrom that haunted house down to the
bedroom, like this woman is abeast, you know. And so I
think that everyone is thinking that NormanBates is going to save the day.
He's trying to be that guy.He's he wants to be that guy.
He's a good guy. He is. Norman Bates is a good guy.

(01:42:13):
I really I know that he is. Yeah. No, he's a sweetheart.
Yeah he's a sweetheart. Yeah,except except for the whole like dressing
up and killing people. Better thanthat, he's great. Well, I
mean this is the thing, likethat is mother, and Tony Perkins has
me completely believing that it is nothim, you know, And that's that's
the ambiguity we're talking about before,which which makes this movie. That ambiguity

(01:42:38):
makes this movie where you don't knowwhere one begins and one ends. He's
not like you never get to seea transformation scene. You never get to
see him like put on the outfits. They just happen to be on him.
You never get to see any ofthat. In a modern movie,
they would show that. In fact, the fact that Gus van Sant doesn't

(01:42:58):
insert a scene like that is ameasure of restraint on his part that I
appreciate that that he keeps that ambiguity. As far as the scene structure goes,
he keeps that ambiguity. The actingdoesn't necessarily live up to that,
but the scene structure is still therewhere you don't know, if you've never
seen this movie where he makes thatshot, yeah, sure that I shot

(01:43:24):
at the end. Janet Lee isdoing an amazing acting job in this scene
because when I look at that eye, I think she is frozen in thought.
I think her thought is what whatwhat just happened? Because I was
I was going to go yeah,And I think she's processing how terrifying it

(01:43:46):
is to look at the person.Because Janet Lee has I mean, yeah,
Janet Lee has said she was playingthat's whole scene as she's looking right
at Norman, knowing who it is, knowing that it's a guy that she
was just in his parlor having dinnerwith. And to see that process as
the life is draining out of herin that eye shot, you get all

(01:44:12):
of that. Absolutely, it's it'sit's so good. And they prop in
the in the other one they propan hash wrong. It's like it's just
and they yeah, they st JosephStefano again. He talks about how in
the original script he had the buttshot of Marian Crane yea as they flopped

(01:44:33):
over the thing, and Hitchcock said, no, we can't do the butt
shot. Come on, it's nineteensixty. You know. I don't even
think that that's the reason that itwas cut. I think that Hitchcock saw
it as gratuitous and unnecessary. AndI got to tell you, I was
thinking to myself, Oh, I'mgonna like it when they add it,
when they keep it in the nineteenninety eight version, I'm gonna like that
part. We got to it andI just went, oh, you see

(01:44:55):
her butthole, like almost see AnneHash's buttole, I'm sorr sorry, it's
so too much because because you justsaid it, you're seeing Ann Hasha's butthole,
you're not seeing Marion Cranes. Butanytime something like that happens, it
takes you out of the movie.It takes you out of the movie and
you're like wow and Hash, Wow, she's really got naked for this thing
conducts to her. You're not thinking, poor Marian Crane and what I think

(01:45:20):
Joseph Stefano said that was the mostheartbreaking shot he ever um, he's ever
seen, and he was upset thatthey had to take it out. I
think that the most heartbreaking shot inthe in this scene is when Marian Janet
Lee goes down into the bathtub rightbefore she pulls the shower curtain, and

(01:45:41):
she's like squatting, kind of kneelingdown in the in the shower and she
looks like a little dead bird,like a little baby bird in like the
bottom of a bathtub. Yeah,and when you see it in the remake,
there's so much the red blood andI get it, this is how

(01:46:01):
it would and it's all cgied onher and everything, the gushing wounds and
everything and they add like that streakof blood behind her, and I get
that this is how it would reallylook, and it's they're giving us all
the reality. But this scene isjust the biggest example of how much is

(01:46:23):
lost by putting this in color.Yeah, you're focused on the wrong You're
focused on the wrong thing. Yeah, the mystery of what was happening.
And because this is the thing,right, the stab is right when we
cut to that stab on the navel, that famous um, you know,
it doesn't seem logical that the stabwould be there, like right, it's

(01:46:45):
arm up, armed down, armup, armed down, it would go
into like her chest, something somewherein her upper body. They're showing a
knife stab below the woman's belly button. This is this is this is right,
This is what it is. Okay, Hitchcock has raped in the audience.
Is what's happening. I'm sorry it'sput it out there like that.
But it's Norman. He not onlyis at a housewife's weapon, it's a

(01:47:09):
mother kind of weapon. What isa woman going to grab like a knife,
a kitchen knife. But it's Normanfinally penetrating her in a way that
he's never able to do because VinceVaughn. He clearly is able to get
some kind of a sexual satisfaction.I just believe that Norman has never touched
himself. Anthony Perkins Norman, he'snever masturbated. He's never even thought of

(01:47:31):
doing it. Maybe he's thought ofit, but he's never actually gone there
because he can't. This is thisis through allowing the mother persona into his
mind and allowing her to kill thesewomen that he is not able to possess
in a sexual way. He's ableto get his sexual desires out is the
only way he has. He can'tactually do it sexually. So with these

(01:47:57):
cuts back and forth at the waythat they're out of reality again, I
don't think that this is you know, people say, oh, it doesn't
hold up this scene because it's it'scheesy or what I'm like. No,
the point of the scene is thatit's ambiguous when you have the red blood,
and when you try to make itmore clear, you're losing all of
that. The illusion is gone.It's it's supposed to be representational, it's

(01:48:19):
not supposed to be accurate. Yeah, yeah, What you really want to
show and that shot is that there'sno way out though all the different angles,
was like, she can't get outthe side, she can't go through
the front. She is trapped there, private trap and that is just yeah,
exactly, another private trap. Somethingabout the remake that again baffles me

(01:48:41):
is the time that they take becauseI do want to talk for a second
about this reveal, the mother reveal, Right, the curtain curtain. Why
the pause? Why the pause?There's such a long pause in the remake.
And okay, wait, we gotto say, okay mother. The
look of other in the remake,Oh my goodness, really Barbie theme,

(01:49:03):
right, Carrie in that Barbie themeon Um, she's got this blonde wig.
So there's that. And the faceis so grim, reapery. I
believe that that was the point inthe original, the black face. You
know that it's not like logical howeverything else should be so bright, and

(01:49:24):
then her face is black. It'sthe grim reaper. It's it makes it.
And that was what Selena leaned overto me when we were watching it,
and she just goes, oh mygod, that face and she said
her face. She'd completely bought intothinking that was the way that they showed
her face, Like that's so disturbing. The remake it's like comedic grim Reaper,

(01:49:45):
so shining blonde hair, and thenlike I don't even know, I
don't even know. So there's that, and then there's um the pause that
Anne Hash does this like literally there'sthree seconds one Mississippi to Mississippi, three
missus sippy and Andhesh goes. Shedoes this little type baby gasp and then
the stab happens. I think beforethe music, which is different from the

(01:50:09):
original two. I don't know.It's all kinds of funny. It makes
it very funny. I was laughingand it's I'm not supposed to be funny.
Well, and you know she's dyingbecause the black clouds roll in.
My jaw dropped when the clouds rolledin. If you're going to do it,
do it all the way, doit through through the whole movie.

(01:50:29):
If you want to make that movieof Psycho, make that movie of Psycho.
I didn't write much about the ninetyeight version of that scene because the
cloud thing was like I wrote blackcloud and big right there, black cloud,
black cloud. There's nothing else,there's nothing else to say. Yeah,
oh god, okay, So getinto the cleanup scene. I'm dying

(01:50:56):
to hear what you have to sayabout it. Now, I'm going to
start with the sixty version. Fromthe time he enters the room to the
time that the car sinks into theswamp and we cut to the hardware store,
it is ten minutes of cleanup,and Hitchcock has said, this is
where he knew he had the audience. This is the scene because a he
cleans up that room like he's doneit before, he lays out that shower

(01:51:19):
curtain like he's done it before,gets out to the swamp. That moment
where the car stops sinking. Hitchcocksays that when he would go watch the
audiences, that's when they would gasplike they were scared for Norman, like
Norman was going to get caught.And then when the car sank and he

(01:51:44):
smiles a little bit and the audiencewould relax, he was like, I
got him him, I got him. I got him. This first half
of the movie, by the way, everything that happened the first half of
the movie means nothing, means nothingbecause this is not the story. I've
just faked you out to think thatthis whole story is about Marion Crane and

(01:52:05):
the forty thousand dollars. It's themcguffin, of all mcguffins, it means
nothing to the rest of the story. But everybody else that's not at everybody
else that's not at the Base motelstill thinks it means something. It's an
incredible rug pull. Again, theninetieth version can't do it because it's already

(01:52:27):
been done. It can't do itbecause we know, we know those stakes,
and he takes he takes too manymoments to comment on the fact that
he's nervous, to comment on thefact that he's got the car driving by
comment on the fact that all thestuff he's like the car drivers biding has
to give a little wave and asmile. No, stick to the task,

(01:52:48):
dude, You've got to do this. The car wave and the smile
for from Vince Vaughn was I waslike, uh, yeah, the whole
point of that scene is to getthe audience. It's on Norman's side.
This is the trick. This isHitchcock, the magician, playing the trick
on the audience. I love theway that he creates that tension for us

(01:53:09):
because now that we the audience havethe information, we know what the issue
is. Now, when the nextvictims arrive we are just gripping our seats
and we are just all god,you know, because we know what's about
to where we know it could happen, you know, so when Arbogast shows
up, it just we're all liketwisting and turning in our chairs. You

(01:53:30):
know. It's brilliant. It's trulybrilliant. The movie that's kind of closest
to the ninety eight version that getscompared to this movie a lot as Scream,
and mainly because Scream kind of doesa mini version of Psycho at the
beginning with Drew barrymore Right's she getsattacked early, she dies early. You
don't think a big starlike that's goingto die that early in the movie,

(01:53:54):
and that kind of sets the edgefor the rest of the movie where it's
like you just don't know who's goingto die. And this is the same
thing with the Marian Crane, exceptHitchcock has the patience to do it for
forty five minutes. He has thepatience and he knows and the confidence to
know that's going to pay off.And also, have you seen the movie

(01:54:16):
Scream. Yeah, Okay, what'sDrew Barrymore's character's name? Yeah, no
idea, it's a big deal thatshe dies in the beginning her name is
Casey Becker, by the way,that it's a big deal because it's Drew
Barrymore. It's a big deal inPsycho because it's Marian Crane and we've gotten
to know her. We know whatshe's going through, we know everything about

(01:54:40):
her, we know what she needsand what she's trying to do, and
this act of craziness happens to herin this movie. To have that patience
and to know that you can setup this character so so well and then
have the have the nerve or thecourage however you want to say it,
to kill her off and know thatthe audience is going to keep being with

(01:55:04):
you. No. Yeah, it'slike we feel like abandoned, like we've
been violated and abandoned because our mother, our as the audience, our mother
is Marian and she has just died. So now we're desperate for who do
we latch onto? And it's okay, Norman saved the day, Norman,
and we believe he will, youknow. Now we're just waiting for him
to like overcome mother. So butbut yeah, okay, So now the

(01:55:28):
film takes turn and it becomes awhole other film. It's like literally literally
a different film. There's Psycho postShower, we meet Lila, and I
will go ahead and say, Ithink Julianne Moore's really good in the in
the rebake, I think she's reallygood. She has found a Lila that

(01:55:50):
I believe. Yeah, I believe. I believe what she's doing. Did
you not believe Vera Miles? No, No, Vera Miles is great.
But you know, let's just behonest. It's a thankless role. It's
not even really a role. It'smore of just like a plot device rather
than a role, you know.Right, We've we introduced the sister in

(01:56:11):
the hotel room seen earlier. Somebody'sgot to come looking for her, somebody's
got to hook up with Sam.In fact, in the novel there's hints
that Sam and Lila are going tohave a little yeah something. Yeah,
thank god they got rid of that. That would have really just like them
they become villains. Yeah, youcan't do that. Yeah, But we
get Lila and we get our goodfriend, detective Arbou Gost Arbo Gass.

(01:56:38):
Wait, hold on, hold on, who are you a friend? My
name is Arbost friend. I'm aprivate investigator? Where is she? Mus
Crane. I love the way thatum that that he says his own name,
because he says it in such away that it doesn't sound like he's

(01:56:59):
saying his own name. It soundslike he's saying a character name, you
know, Arbat by the way,by the way. Martin Balston at this
point not a big star. He'sa TV guy. He's a he's a
New York theater guy. But hisfirst big movie is Twelve Agree Men,
which comes out three years earlier thanthis, and then he's really right,
he's really right back to television,and he had done a bunch of Albert

(01:57:19):
Tishcock presents stuff. This movie kindof, I mean, Twelve Agree Men
kind of put him on the map, but this movie kind of made him
a bigger a bigger deal. AndI think he is so good, oh
totally. And I think William H. Macy does I think the right move
for that character. Make him alittle bit of a throwback. You're going

(01:57:42):
to get all these throwback lines anyway. I mean he's talking about aspec and
jelly and all this sort of stuff. It's like you're going to get all
these old school lines. So beold school. You know, we're two
years off of Swingers. People arewearing suits from the forties. It's fine.
I think that. I think thathot as fresh milk and if it
ain't gel or I'm sorry if ifit doesn't gel, it is an aspect

(01:58:03):
and this isn't gelling. That's theone. I think. Those are my
two favorite lines of the whole film. Hot as fresh and yeah, when
Bill Macy says if it doesn't gel, it isn't jello, he's just so
cute. Bill Macy has such aboyish he has such a boyish quality though.
He brings this air of like amateurdetective to the to the film,

(01:58:26):
like he's like he's been waiting forhis moment his whole life, and this
is going to be his big case. Like, you know. The interesting
thing is he must be coming fromPhoenix, right because he's hired by the
company to find the money. Again, everybody's concerned about the money. Um,
so he's not a cop, buthe's you know, he's they're just
they're just to do the bidding ofthe company. That's all he's concerned about.

(01:58:49):
Do you have anything more for thatscene in the hardware store? Because
I really don't well, I justwant to say, I gotta I gotta
say. Okay, can anyone understanda goddamn thing? Vego Mortenson says in
this whole film. I think thathe is. I think that he probably
does a better job with the Samcharacter than um uh Gavin. But I

(01:59:13):
cannot. Okay, hold on,you better tell me what's going on here
and tell me fast. I can. I can take just so much.
I guess we better sad what wewere saying. Do we'll walk in there.
That's just an expression. What I'mnot was away, wouldn't you.
I could not understand a damn wordcame out of this boy's mouth. And
I think that there's a point.I get it. He's playing this character

(01:59:35):
in a very certain way. Forwhatever reason. This guy, who has
lived in California his whole life,has this southern accent. Okay, okay,
sure, let's go there. Heseems more like a little boy than
anyone else in the film. Umwhich is why. Yeah, his chemistry
with Anne hash is just it's nonexistent. They have negative chemistry. I

(01:59:59):
don't believe for a secon that sheis anywhere into him, wants to marry
him. I just don't whatever theno stakes. As we've already said.
How how is this for a controversialstatement. I think Gavin's better. Okay,
do tell I think Gavin again isn'tdoing much because he's not supposed to

(02:00:20):
do much. Yeah, that's true. I mean it's true. It's not
Sam is not the point, likeLila's not the point either, which is
why I kind of dislike Julian Moore. I think she's a little distracting.
She's a little strident, but that'sjust for me. I don't know.
I was just so happy to seesomebody kind of kicks, some kick,
some modern life into their character thatdidn't seem out of place. Sure.

(02:00:43):
Yeah, I don't have a problemwith her. I know a lot of
people do have a problem with herand think that she's really over the top
and crazy, but I don't thinkit's that bad. It would have been
nice if the cast could have gottentogether and decided how they were all going
to play, and decided what moviewe're making, have a meeting. It's
like, I'm going to do itninety eight, Well, I'm going to
do it sixty Well I'm going todo it in a Southern accent. Well,

(02:01:04):
you're in Phoenix. But okay,I'm going to be real agro oh,
I'm going to twitch a lot withmy face. And it's like,
can we all get to one stylethat we can all kind of agree on.
We don't have to do everything thesame way, but we kind of
there's gotta be some homogeney to this. There's gotta be a through line to
this. I think that that's justisn't That's that you're outlining a job of

(02:01:27):
a director, And I would lovefor Gus van Zand to do a little
a little more directing, a littlemore directly directing. But yeah, I'm
just not a fan of this ofthe film at this point. Whenever it
cuts to Sam and Lila, itkind of loses me a little bit.
Not entirely, I'm not like,especially in the original it's it's fine,

(02:01:49):
Like I'm just waiting to get tothe next Let's get back to Norman.
You know, we've got to getback to the motel. We've got to
get back there because that's where thingsare happening. Right. So when Arba
Gas goes I'm going to the basemotel, You're like, yeah, we're
going back to the base motel.Yeah, yeah, I do just want
to I do just want to callout, Yeah, let's go back to
the motel, but I do justwant to call it. One more thing

(02:02:10):
about Sam. Did you notice thepanning over of his bedroom, the hardware
bedroom. Yeah, he's got thislike religious hillbilly character going on, and
they pan over the bedroom and he'sgot all of this like crazy. He
almost looks like a little crazier thanNorman, Like this is oh wow,
I would say that that bedroom.I just want to know what this choice

(02:02:32):
is. Why are you choosing toI get that he's in a bad financial
way, but he's got this religiouslike child's bedroom with all this religious paraphernalia.
He's got a rock collection. Didyou see the rock collection? Oh
my god, no, no,no, I did not. It is
prominently displayed next to his desk,and it's like with his little trundle bed

(02:02:55):
and all of this Jesus stuff onthe walls. And I'm not saying if
you're into Jesus that you're crazy.I'm certainly not saying that, but just
the way that it's laid out,with the hippie beads um for the doorway,
I'm just baffled again. I can'tjust I'm about to drink every time
I say baffled, Right, Jesus, I have I have. The confession
I have to make here is thatthere's parts of the ninety eight version that

(02:03:20):
I just I mean, I justglazed over. Yeah, it's just it's
just it was there was so itwas so hard to keep interested. There
was a strong goal. At times. I didn't think the policeman looking for
people who aren't any trouble. OhI'm not the police. Oh yeah,
I have an investigator, every reasonto believe that she came along this way,

(02:03:42):
may have stopped in the area.It's just stop here. Well,
no one stopped here for a coupleof weeks. Am I looking at the
picture before committing yourself? Commit myself? You sure sound like a policeman.
We're back at the motel. Takeit away. This is a crazy scene.
So I I really love this moment. The Martin Balsom, I think
is excellent. I just love howhe lets Norman dig his own grave and

(02:04:04):
then there's like scrape foreshadowing when hesays, commit myself. Be sure do
you talk like a police officer?I found that really funny watching it for
the for this podcast, I waslike, oh my god, there's so
much like peppered throughout of just likeI'll never commit myself an institution. What
you know? It was funny andNorman has no chill again, no chill.

(02:04:28):
He It's like, I'm squirming inmy seat watching this guy. You
totally could have gotten away with it. Dude. First of all, why
are we not destroying the ledger theregister book? I mean, that's like
kill a girl one oh one,you destroy her signature? Like, come
on, and did you catch thesignature above Marian's She writes Marie Samuel's,

(02:04:49):
which I think is very funny becauseMarie Samuel's hah Mary sam So. But
the signature above hers was Michael Scott, which I found funny, and it's
the same in the original as well. On the run from dunder Mifflin call
that not no longer World's Best Boss. So the thing that I really want

(02:05:13):
to talk about in this scene,though, is the neck shot this next
shot and comparing the two, becausethis is one of my favorite shots in
the original. The way Anthony Perkinscranes his neck over, it's just the
tension is gripping at this point,like Hitchcock has us on a fishing line

(02:05:33):
and he's just reeling us in atthis point, slowly reeling, reeling,
and that next shot is so weirdand it's so out of place. It's
just you can tell that it's somethingthat came up on the fly because it
doesn't really have a whole lot ofrhyme or reason. But his jaw is

(02:05:53):
going, he's chewing that candy cornand this tense, tense scene is happening
with him and Barbi Gast and ArbaGast. Is he just he's changing his
story so many times and we're justlike, dude, stop it, stop
it. Oh my god, no, because again we are looking for someone
to identify with and we're starting todo and we are nervous. We are

(02:06:15):
nervous for normal, right, weare gonna get caught. So then you
take the remake. I'm agoinding thatsmile again. Uh, Vince Vince Vaughn's
neck is so you can see likeall this gross like stubble on his neck
and like he's got like a pimple. It's just gross. And Vince Vaughn's

(02:06:35):
like smacking of the candy as well. Can we just talk about this person.
It's just it's really yucky. Itmakes me feel really yucky. He's
got these fleshy like lips, VinceVaughn, and and just the way he
like puts his fingers into his mouthwith the candy like yeah, and smacks

(02:06:57):
it. It's just so it's somuch cringe. And this is the thing,
is like, I don't I feellike it's a disservice to the character.
He's playing it like a stupid child, is what it is, not
even like someone like an adult whohas a socially awkward disability or something.
He's differently abled in some mentally insome way. He's playing it like a

(02:07:18):
dumb child, like a dirty dumbchild or something. You know. I
just don't appreciate this at all.And that crane of his neck over that
shot, it bothers me so muchbecause it's not the same like it's not
quite the same angle. But youcan see Vince Vaughan put his eyes down

(02:07:42):
to check the camera and make surehe's in the frame in the right spot.
You can see his eyes look checkthe camera. Why would you not
do a take too on that andkeep it a shot where he doesn't very
clearly look at the camera. Itbothers me so much. I'm sorry.
I'll tell you why. That wasthe best one. Probably right, that
was the best one. It's justhe's so so clearly presenting his neck for

(02:08:07):
the camera. He's like, Okay, let me get myself right in the
frame, right in the right shot. Let me check. Van Sant had
a little discmand with the DVD ofthe original Psycho on set with him,
and they would compare the scene beforethey would shoot the scene. And it's
like, I do yourself a favorand throw that DVD away. It's not
doing any favors. You want tohim to crane the neck, crane the

(02:08:28):
neck in a new way, craningin a different shot, or have him
not crean the neck again. We'rejust we're too locked into this idea that
it has to be shot for shot. Just make the damn movie. If
it's not working, then maybe juststop. I'm trying to make it work,
right, Yeah, so, ohI got it. Okay, hold

(02:08:50):
on one second, I have toplay this one. Yeah. Well,
it was raining that night in herhair was all wet, and I'll tell
you it's not a very good pictureof her either. No, I guess
at all. I guess not tellme all about it. I thought that
found it was very funny when VinceVaughn said at all, it really cracked
me up. That addition, youknow, to the script was necessary.

(02:09:11):
It had to make that point.He just has this sureness about him.
Like I said, his energy isvery grounded, and it's just so very
obvious to me that he's like playingat this I have to appear nervous character,
you know, whereas with Tony Perkinsit emulated nervousness. It just he

(02:09:33):
was so fidgety and so terrified,and we are right with him on that,
you know. Yeah, So theopposite energies really were most prominent in
this scene, I think. ButI'll also I think it might actually be
Vince Vaughn's best scene in the filmbecause of his chemistry with Bill Macy and
because of the way they play offeach other. You know, Macy makes

(02:09:54):
that seem Macy makes the scene.The only other thing I want to say
about Bill Macy is the way thathe looks in his suit. He that
hat and the suit looks too child. He just looks like a little boy
in daddy's suit. You know.It's the costumes were killing me. Man,
I would still take that suit.I'm not a hat guy, but
I take that suit for sure.That hat man. There's a thing of

(02:10:18):
him in the documentary on the differenthats, using all these different hats,
like yeah, and he says,I trust you implicitly, and it's like,
yeah, big mistakes, sir.Did we have to say anything about
the phone call? I understand weneed the phone call to happen for the
plot to move forward, but Ijust that was something that really stood out
to me. Was like, Ican't see why Bill Macy would not totally
suspect Vince Vaughn. He just seemsso guilty. Do you remember the hotel

(02:10:41):
scene, all the background noise,there's like people fighting in the hotel rooms.
Maybe I'm hearing somebody have sex inthat In that he's come, He's
come to some like I think theFairvale diner that she thought of going to
for dinner, and there's like peopleyelling, and I was watching it with

(02:11:01):
my headphones in and I thought likethe people upstairs were having a fight,
and I'm like taking my headphones outand it's like, oh no, he's
just layered in this background noise tolet us know we're in a busy place.
Well, I don't need I don'tneed to know that. I don't
need to know that. The onlyimportant thing about that scene is they make
the phone call so that Lyla andSam know where Arbogast is. That's the

(02:11:22):
only thing that's important about this scene. So he makes the phone call and
then he heads back to Bates Moteland decides to go into the house.
Oh, a bad choice. Thisscene is weird. It's weird in both

(02:11:43):
versions. He's done this kind offalling thing. He didn't rear window when
Jimmy Stewart falls out the window inthis one. I don't think it's a
great shot in either version, exceptyou know, Hitchcock makes the mistake of
not putting a cow or a womanin a mask. Yeah, well sure,

(02:12:03):
I'm sure Stefano had that in theoriginal screenplay. Yeah, but it's
it's such a weird moment before thefall though, we get that overhead shot,
the bird's eye view shot of motherwith the knife, and that,
to me is the scariest shot inthe film, that almost like jump scared.
I don't know, she's just theway that she walks into the frame.

(02:12:24):
Every time it scares me. Iknow it's coming, and it still
scares me. I think what thedreamy quality of the shot falling down the
stairs is supposed to be is whatGusfansant is trying to convey by splicing in
the clips of the woman in themask and the cow. Yeah, I

(02:12:48):
think that what he's trying to say. What Gus fan Zant's idea there is
this is we're getting inside the mindof Arbigast, and this is his life
flashing before his eyes and he seesthe sins that he was not able to
atone for, like the woman thathe cheated on his wife with in the
mask. I don't know what asex party or something he was havingough,

(02:13:09):
No, he had a wild nightin Vegas. Yeah, he had an
eyes wide shot moment, and he'sremembering that and he feels terrible. And
then he's also feeling terrible about thecow that he clearly, you know,
hit out on the road. Ithink that that's what that is. So
I think that all of that isconveyed in this dreamy, crazy shot of

(02:13:30):
Arbigas falling down the stairs. Ireally like it. I really like this
shot. I think that it's wackyand zany and not in reality for a
reason, because we are experiencing whatthis guy is experiencing. Like when you
fall to your death, do youfeel the pain or is it more like
you're falling down some kind of acrazy rabbit hole? You know, again

(02:13:52):
with Alice in Wonderland. Yeah,you don't have to copy this shot,
Gus van Sand. You can dothis a different way, and you can
leave the cow and the woman athome. You're doing it. You're doing
a disservice to the character. Bydoing that. You're doing a disservice to
Arbogast. We haven't known Arbogast thatlong, but he seems like a nice

(02:14:13):
guys. You well, you gotto do him like that. You got
to make him a crazy sex party, eyes wide shut guy, you don't
know, hitting hitting on the cows. No, we don't need that.
We don't need it. And Iwill also say this, this is the
first moment, and I'll bring thisup a little bit later too. This
is the first moment as I'm watchingthis movie where I think that's not mom.

(02:14:37):
Oh, okay, she moves downthat staircase so fast, that's not
mom. Well, she comes outthe bedroom really fast, like and she
like almost leaps down the staircase andlands on him and start stabbing him.
Again, That is not Mom.This is an invalid supposed to be an

(02:14:58):
invalid. Yea, with if we'veif we fast forward just a little bit,
well, I don't want to gettwo out of order here. But
when he's carrying her down the stairsand she's yelling at him, yelling,
and he yelling at him, andthen she's not putting up any struggle.
If you didn't know, if youdidn't know yet, you should know now
that's not Mom. Yeah, thatshot in the remake was just again the

(02:15:22):
nature of it being in color andhe's carrying this what is very clearly a
dummy down those stairs. It's comical, you know, I'm laughing, But
yeah, I was shocked to think. I mean, at that moment when
he when in the original, whenTony Perkins is carrying mother down the stairs,
I'm looking at my friend Selena.I'm looking at her thinking, surely
she's got to know. Surely,come on, like, do you really

(02:15:43):
she was totally fooled, man,I'm telling you. And I think the
reason is because the next moment weget with the Sheriff and Sam and Lila.
I think that it does such aperfect that scene. I I glossed
over it a little bit initially,but then when I went and rewatched it,
I was like, this scene reallydoes serve a great purpose because every

(02:16:05):
character in that scene is so buyingin to the idea that there is a
mother. They're taking it for grantedcompletely. We got to talk to the
mother the way that they're talking abouther, like she's a real person.
It gets us to take it forgranted as well. And then that reveal
that I always find really really creepyever since I was a little kid.
When someone's talking about a person andthen it zooms in on an actor and

(02:16:28):
they go, that person's been deadfor ten years, it's just cool like
chills, you know, and it'sa total misdirect off. Well, if
that's his mother, then who's thewoman buried out there? Misdirect you know,
like look over here, guys,because the trick is happening over here.
Yeah. I think that if anyonehad any doubt, it's brought right

(02:16:50):
back around in the Sheriff's scene.I really do think that I think that
the sheriff scene is there to servethat he. I agree, that's one
that's easy to gloss over. ButI'm mean, that's a very important fact
that has to get out there,that Mom's dead. Mom's been dead for
a while. Here's the story ofhow mom died. Um, we learned
later that is not the correct story. But this is the story of how

(02:17:13):
mom died. You know that.The other great part of that scene is
the sheriff calling Norman like and justand being just like, hey, Norman,
how's it going. Hey, therewas there a woman that that was
up there? Oh yeah, howare things? How's how's everything going?
All right? All right? Good? All right, We'll see you at
the Box Social next Sunday. It'llbe great, Okay, Bye. They're

(02:17:35):
all like friendly like that. Again, everybody knows Norman in this town.
It's a small town. Everybody knowshim. It's like he's just he's just
the weird guy that that tends theBates Motel, and and that's that's just
that's just his deal. And theninety eight version, fine, fine,
Philip Baker Hall. You go.You're gonna go wrong with Philip Baker Hall.

(02:17:56):
No, you're not. He's great. Yeah, yeah, we're going
to registers, man and wife.We're going to get shown to a cabin
and then we're going to search everyinch of the place inside and out.

(02:18:16):
So our intrepid couple, now Samand Lila decide to pose as a married
couple head back to the base moteland see if they can figure out what's
going on. What's going on?What's going on? And I said,
yayay yea yea, I bet that'sI bet Lilah has that on her on
her Walkman, Oh my god,you're so right. So they're back in

(02:18:43):
there, they're getting the I can'tremember this. In the original, there's
a big deal that Sam makes aboutthe fact that he doesn't charge them because
they don't have any bags, whichis again this old school, this old
school thing. Can you explain itto me? Unmarried couple can't check into
hotels together. It's there were hotelchains that would not allow that to happen.

(02:19:05):
Like, if you were an unmarriedcouple, you were not checking into
the hotel. It's not like theWestward ho in Phoenix, where you can
get the hourly rate in any respectablehotel. Back in those days, you
had to be a married couple ifyou didn't have any luggage. They would
know that you're just in there fora romp, you're not there to stay,
so they would charge you a littlebit extra kind of look the other

(02:19:28):
way, it's like ten dollars.I'm going to give you the surcharge of
ten dollars so that I don't like, call the morality police on you and
have them storm in and go letme see some wedding rings. Guys,
come on. It kind of makessense why Norman would let something like that
slide. I guess it's passable inthe sixties that Norman would say, oh,

(02:19:50):
yeah, sure, here's your room, go ahead. But in the
nineties, I can't remember if thatlines in the nineties. I can't remember.
Oh it's in the nineties. It'sin there, and I was just
like, this is not playing.But I think I think the reason that
that Norman originally does that is,you know, be let them go ahead,
as he knows it's Sam. He'sseen Sam came up by himself at

(02:20:15):
one point and was yelling for him, and he heard that. Do you
think he saw him? Well,it's there's implication. It depends on where
the swamp is. Because he's he'sburying Arbogast at that point, and he
kind of does this like look aroundbehind him as he's standing there. A
great I mean a great Halloween shotof all those different black I was theying

(02:20:39):
to myself, I want that shotas like a framed picture on my wall.
I want Tony Parkins's gorge gorgeous,it's beautiful nineteen sixties Norman and the
morality and his mom's morality, anddepending on how much mom is still in
Norman at this point, she'd wantthe ten dollars for the for the Tell

(02:21:00):
motel. Yeah, so they theyfigure out cabin one and after they check
in, they go down to cabinone and start snooping around. They're playing
little detectives. Now, the showercurtain thing is really cool. That was
one of the first things they noticedis the shower curts off. This was

(02:21:22):
a little little notice, but weknow why the shower curtain is off.
And then of course the convenience offinding that little scrap of paper. It's
a little yeah, but you know, it's like, we got to get
to the end. The space ofthis movie is started to accelerate quite a
bit after the shower scene. It'sreally is like we're getting to this these

(02:21:46):
the scenes start to become shorter andshorter because we really want to rush back
to the motel. We really wantto get to see what the ending of
this movie is. And Sam,Sam is just not the very subtle character.
Sam, you had one job.You had one job. Keep Norman

(02:22:07):
occupied. Well, I go talkto the mother. That's the talk about.
Talk about anything, talk about fishing, talk about the sports teams in
town, talk about anything at all. But don't start getting into his personal
life. What are you, whatare you doing before we get there?
Can I say something about her,her walking up to the house, because

(02:22:28):
I want to talk about the walkup to the house for a second.
I love this moment in the Hitchcockversion. Hitchcock is putting us in Lila's
place now, right, He's sogood at doing that in this film,
putting us in the characters shoes.And the first time I saw this scene,
I remember exactly where I was inthis moment. I remember exactly where
I was sitting in my in myhouse. I remember getting closer to the

(02:22:52):
screen, literally on the edge ofmy seat. Like I said, Hitchcock
reeling us in on that fishing pole, that pole feeling walking up to the
house. You feel every step withher, the length of the journey we
are taking. Every step. There'ssuch suspense, creating this dread because we
know what's going to happen, Likewe just saw Arbig Aust go in that

(02:23:13):
house. Don't go in that house. And I'm, again my word of
the day, baffled by the ninetyeight version. The It would have been
very simple for Gus Vanzade to lookat the original and to see the way
that the cuts were done, theway that we progressively get closer up to

(02:23:33):
her face. He starts it witha close up, not a close close,
but he starts it very close toher face, and then the cutting
back to the house. She's constantlylooking up at the highest window. Yeah,
instead of the front door. There'sno reason for Lila to be looking
up in the window, right,she doesn't know that's where the mother's the

(02:23:54):
thing. You're exactly right. Sheneeds to be looking towards that front door
because if anybody's coming out, they'recoming out the front door. I mean,
the scene was fine with Julianne Moore, but it was completely unremarkable.
There was no tension, and I'mtelling you that the first time I saw
it with Vera Miles, it leftsuch an impression on me. I still
remember exactly where I was when Isaw it. You know. It's like

(02:24:15):
one of those moments you'll never forgetin your life, and it was one
of the moments that I realized,God damn, Hitchcock is an art.
Structure and pace are the two thingsthat he does better than just about anybody
else in the game. I thinkthe Cohen Brothers are close, but structure
and pace are That's Hitchcock's like breadand butter right there. This is one

(02:24:39):
of the reasons why I'm glad theninety eight version exists, because to really
see the difference between you can putthe camera in the same place, you
can light things in the same way, you can have them say the same
lines, but structure and pace structuresall there that this whole movie is off
kilter pace wise. I watched thosetwo moments with Lila walking up to the

(02:25:01):
house. I watch them side byside, the original and the remake,
and the amount of looking down atthe ground that Julianne Moore does it just
cuts me off every time. Idon't think that I ever lost Via Miles
eyes, and Hitchcock has a greatquote about eyes. He said, a
conversation may be quite trivial, butin the eyes will reveal what a person
thinks or needs. And I thinkthat he always use that as a rule

(02:25:24):
of thumb because as an actor myself, something that I always a note that
I always give myself when I'm onset when I'm making a film is don't
forget your eyes, Jade. Givethe camera your eyes as long as you
can feel the lens hitting your eye, like you can feel it, even
if you're not looking right at thelens. Obviously, you can feel when
you're in your It's like an actoron stage knowing when they're in their light.

(02:25:46):
You know, you can feel it. So when I feel that the
camera can see my eye, that'swhen I know I'm doing it right,
you know. Anyway, So,oh, one other thing I want to
say about the sam and normand ofit all in this moment is that Norman
says this thing he's insisting on havinga happy childhood. He says, my

(02:26:07):
mother and I were more than happy. You know that moment That struck me
as um Yeah, when I whenI watched it again, it struck me
as like a. It's a keysymptom of d I D Dissociate identity disorder.
This like amnesia brain, especially aroundhome life in early childhood. People
with d ID will often not rememberhuge chunks of their childhood. And I

(02:26:33):
say this because I know I havea couple of friends with DD, and
that's that's something that they all haveexperienced. And I get the sense with
Tony Perkins when he says, mymother and I were very happy, you
know, like the way that he'sdefending it so hard, it's like I
think that he's trying to rewrite hispast. You know, it jumped out
at me when Tony Perkins acting that, He's like, this is the way

(02:26:56):
it should have been. So thisis the way I'm going to say it
it happened. I don't know.I just thought was interesting. Yeah,
you're gonna ask me about Lila's roomor Lila looking at Norman's room. Yeah,
what's the arm thing? That thingon the dresser with arms like this
that looks like it's the hands ona bible? I did. I did

(02:27:16):
a Google image search trying to findsomebody who knew something about that. No
one knows that the same thing thatindentation on the bed though, that's some
cretastic yet always Yeah, when Iwatched it with Selena, she grabbed me
in that moment and was like,Oh, what the fuck is going on?
She was so creeped out. Yeah, And in the remake, did

(02:27:37):
you notice how I love the revealof that moment in the original with the
bed you know, in print?But in the remake did you notice that
you could see it right from themoment she walked in the door. I
didn't notice that. That's very funny. Yeah, I was just like,
why would you give it? Youtipped your hand away too soon. There's
now there's no reveal like I cansee. There's like a big old hole

(02:27:58):
in the bed. You know,sums up the movie right there. If
you can just hide that tip,if you can just hide that moment,
if you can, if you candelay that moment, we're going to be
better off. There's there's another there'sanother shot though, too, of the
hands that you're talking about. Ilove this shot in the original. And
if I'm picking up on this asI am not a filmmaker, okay not

(02:28:22):
at all. I have no ideahow cameras work. I should actually more
as an actor, I should know. But Gus Van Sant, who knows
understands camera, I'm just shocked thatyou wouldn't want to recreate this moment because
in the original, when Lila seesthose hands, she's walking into the frame,
and at the moment when it cutsto zoom in at the hands,
it cuts and it zooms in atthe hands at the same rate of speed,

(02:28:45):
so it feels like one shot eventhough it's clearly a cut. It's
like her face, bam hands.But the way, at the rate at
which they're zooming so much motion,it's just like Hitchcock's going zoom like at
the hands. Why would you notsee that amazing moment and pick up on
it as a filmmaker and want totry it yourself because it's it's it's a

(02:29:09):
tiny little thing. But even I, a non camera person, noticed it.
Yeah, do we need to gointo a Norman's bedroom? Yeah,
I was just gonna say, speakingof missed opportunities. Okay, So there's
a moment when she discovers the book. They had to reshoot this several times
in the original because Hitchcock wanted VeraMiles's eyes to look at that book and

(02:29:31):
have a look of like, ohmy god, what am I reading?
And if anyone knows Edgyean's stuff,right, and I know that it was
in the novel, right, He'sgot this occult fascination and he's reading books
about this real creepy shit, justgrotesque human, bodily weird things that he's

(02:29:52):
reading about in the in the novel. So when Hitchcock shot that, he
really wanted the audience to not,you know, obviously know what she was
looking at in the book, butto imagine it themselves. Our imagination is
going to make be worse than anythingthat you can show. I think it's
more than porn in the In theremake, it's just tragic the way that

(02:30:13):
they just make him this little pervyguy, and Juliet Moore is like,
oh, look a booby magazine andshe kind of does this like little kids,
right, Like what the fuck?It's not even close to the same.
You could have played that moment thesame in the original and had the
same effect. There are crazy booksstill out there, you know, like

(02:30:33):
this this book, I don't know, it was more than porn in my
opinion, Well, I just don'tunderstand why they I did think that in
the original when Viera's reaction to itisn't enough. Oh you think it's not
enough. I don't think it's amazing. But I love I love moments in
Yeah. I could see that.I could see that, Actually she could
have gone farther. Oh. Theonly reason I guessed that that's what it

(02:30:56):
is is because they didn't show whatit is. They had showed something inside
the book, it would have ruinedeverything. Our imaginations are way more fertile
and way more vulgar than anything theycould show on the on screen in nineteen
sixty We know what that is exactlyin our version in our brain is way
better than what they could show onscreen. And but still to this day

(02:31:18):
that are there's there's crazy shit inbooks that probably could not have been shown
in nineteen ninety eight or today.And so I just I'm I'm shocked that
he just decided Yeah, I mean, like I said, it's just it's
an assassination of a character. It'ssuch a disservice to Norman Bates to just
reduce him to nothing more than yeah. I mean again, it goes back

(02:31:39):
to the masturbation scene. It's like, if the whole point of this is
that these two personalities are merging goodbecause the one, the one personality is
a little little jerk. Maybe maybeMom should take it over. Maybe she's
she's maybe she's the better one.The original, I mean the remake as

(02:32:01):
well. They change the music.He's not listening to Beethoven, right,
they chose Tammy Wynett. The worldneeds a melody, the world up.
This is what Norman Bates is boppingaround the house too, trying to feel
good about himself, you know,like he's trying to put Mama in the

(02:32:22):
fruit seller. He's trying to bea good person. He's listening to this
Tammy Wynett song. Now, forthe listeners out there, we're on different
coasts. We're doing this through zoom, and and Jade's playing the music on
her phone and holding up to themicrophone. And sometimes I can hear the
music and sometimes I can't. Idid not hear one bit of that music.

(02:32:43):
But I watched Jade dance do littlefinger points and sing along to it,
and for that, I thank you. That was that the best thing
that I've seen in a very longtime. And and I and I got
to see it, and you guysdidn't. And so I win, I
win, I win, I wonthe podcast. This is lud and do

(02:33:07):
it. This is great. Oh. Also, Tammy Wynette, just for
listeners who don't know, Tammy Wynettehas like striking blonde, big hair,
very similar to mother's wig. Andit made me say, Okay, maybe
you maybe you kind of get apass because you're making something makes sense,
right. I hate the wig,Don't get me wrong, I do.
I hate it. I think it'sridiculous. I think it's such so it's

(02:33:28):
it's it's comical, you know.But when I saw that Tammy Wynette was
who he was listening to, Istarted to paint the backstory of Norman Bates,
Vince Vaughn Norman Bates and started tothink, oh, yeah, his
mom was probably really into Tammy Wynette, and his mom probably tried to dress
like her, maybe do her hairlike her. Okay, And so I
got I started to go with ita little bit. Tammy Wynette really saved

(02:33:50):
things for me, That's all Igotta say. Somebody had to. Can't
thank you? Timmy? Well,I'm saying together, Well, we are
now kind of in the moment whereLila is going to make the great decision
to go hide in The Fruit Sellerwhen she's on those stairs clutching the banister.

(02:34:11):
You know, I always think,just like, Tide, what are
you doing? He can see you? And he does, right, I
think he sees her and then hegoes, well, now here's here's a
question, because again did the disassociationmoments? Where does it happen? Where
does it not happen? So hemakes this decision to go upstairs? Yeah,
yeah, is that decision to goput on the clothes in the wig?

(02:34:31):
You know, if he's completely momat that point, then why does
he have to get dressed up?He can just go kill her. No,
I know, it never made alot of sense to me, and
I think it's just I think it'sa dated mentality of d D and because
I'm pretty sure that that's what theNorman Bates character is suffering from. I

(02:34:52):
think it's more of an audience thing. I think it's like, look,
we've been setting up that this womanhas been killing people. We got to
get Norman back in the wig inthe dress. I think it's a very
weird choice in the ninety eight versionto make the Fruit Seller some sort of
bird sanctuarity, like some sort ofweird like aviary. So it's like it's

(02:35:16):
like we're too too many birds.Yes, and it's a little remnant.
It's a little Silence of the Lambsie. Yeah, I didn't think about Silence
of the Lambs as an as aas an influence on the ninety eight version,
but I think it is. Ithink there's definitely some of that.
Well, yeah, whether or nothe consciously knew that it was influencing him,

(02:35:37):
it feels really like it is.And then one of the great non
ending ending scenes of all time thatthat turnaround of Missus Bates and the lamp
going back and forth. If youdidn't scream, you're going to scream now.
It is scary shit. And Idon't understand the people who say,

(02:35:58):
oh, it does not hold up. I love the film, but that
that skeleton reveal just doesn't hold up. I'm like, what are you smoking?
Are you watching what I'm seeing?The way Selena said when we watched
it, she was like the wayit like jiggles back and forth, Like
the way it kind of like wagsit's a little head at you. Oh
my god. It's just so it'sit's so terrifying, and it's so maybe

(02:36:22):
by this point you're thinking, thisis what's going to happen. But that
reveal and the way they got thatlamp swinging and the turn and then not
the best entrance by Tony Perkins,I'm gonna say, Okay, thank you,
Oh my god. That's like,this is the one thing that I

(02:36:43):
would really change about the original isthat we see Tony Perkins and this wide
shot and he's got this crazy grinon his face and he's holding up the
knife and he's in the dress andit's horrifying. Yes, but I wanted
a zoom in. I wanted himto all of a sudden really close to
us. And I know that theycouldn't really do fast zooms like that,

(02:37:03):
um, not like not as easilyand not over like a long distance like
that. But yeah, that thatmoment, that reveal moment. Selena and
I both agreed that it was lackinga little something, and her yelling I'm
norma Bates over and over again.It's like, we don't need we don't
need that, we don't need that. We see him. He's in the
wig. He's he's gonna out ofthe wig. Now, I agree.

(02:37:26):
Vince Vaughan and the Blonde Wig lookslike he's Courtney Love. No, he's
wearing a polyester robe of the cheapestlittle dollar store polyester robe. Oh my
god, Like does he have breath'sin his hair? There's something going on
with him. He goes in veryshitty that Anthony Perkins does really well as
he comes in that room fast,coming to that fast, because it's like

(02:37:50):
the whole thing is I've got tokill this woman. Vince Vaughn kind of
sneaks in and he's like like,slide, no, Mama doesn't do that.
And and it has the opposite problemas the original. It starts in
a close up and just gets closer. Yeah, and there's no wide shot.
And it's not it's not scary.It's just really very off putting and

(02:38:11):
very weird. And that sly littlelook on his little fleshy lips just me
like, oh god, Vince Bond'sface never bothered me more than in that
moment. I was like, Vice, Yeah, it's not great. I'll
speak for myself. Yeah, I'venever loved him and anything. I'll be
honest, but I've never hated himand anything either. He's behind He's just
not my not my cup of tea. He doesn't make films that I care

(02:38:35):
to watch. Is more of thething. Um. I will say though,
that that I am norma bates,norma bates the way that it's I've
tried to make sense of it,and I do think it's a little unnecessary.
I don't think that we quite neededit, but I think that without
it it wouldn't play the same.I think that it's weird enough, and

(02:38:58):
because it's clearly not coming from TonyPerkins and Hitchcock knows that, like again,
it's just hammering the idea home thatlike this is not taking place in
reality. We are in a disjointedWe're partly in Lila's position, but I
think we're much more in Norman's position, like how we were in the shower

(02:39:18):
moment, and we're seeing the killingas he's feeling it, or as his
mother is imagining it, you know, as she's seeing it happening. Well,
and I think you know, bythe time that scene comes around,
he's got to underline to the audience, again, a nineteen sixty audience who
has never seen something like this beforein their lives. I want you to

(02:39:39):
know where we've ended up, andthis is where we've ended up and maybe
you've guessed it, maybe you haven'tguessed it. But now we're going to
just make sure that everybody coming outof the theater knows this is the secret.
It's also a reward to the audience. We've pulled the rug from under
you with the Marion Crane death.Now this is your reward for sticking with

(02:40:01):
us to the end. You getto know what the secret is that you're
not going to tell anybody when youleave the theater. Don't tell anybody what
you just saw. If anyone getsin the answers, it'll be the psychiatrist.
Even I couldn't get to Norman,and he knowed me. Did he
chartter you? No? I gotthe whole story, but not from Norman.

(02:40:28):
I got it from his mother.Let me read again. From William
Goldman. Psycho is his favorite Hitchcockmovie, but he calls the last seven
minutes of this movie one of thegreat snooze scenes. He says, where
the local shrink comes in and deliversthis agonizingly primitive course in Freud, where

(02:40:50):
he tells us Perkins is a nutcase. Well, we've been pretty clued into
that by this time. I canonly guess as to why doesn't mark this
movie? Is this? The highpoints are so extraordinary that we're more than
satisfied. We'll forgive anything. WhenI saw the movie in nineteen sixty,
I remember the audience screened so muchduring the basement sequence that they were almost

(02:41:13):
relieved there was nothing more to joltthem. There was nervous laughter and chit
chat until the end, and nobodylistened to the psychiatrist. I think that
scene is it's a little better inthe in the ninety eight version, mainly
because they cut it down and mainlybecause Robert Forrester delivers it the right way.

(02:41:39):
Matter of fact, you know theguy who does it, I can't.
I didn't write down his name.The guy who does it in the
original Simon Oakland is his name becausethey call him doctor Simon and eight as
an homage. But Simon Oakland,he's a little too much like this is

(02:42:00):
my scene. I'm going to makea meal out of it. When Lila
asks him about his sister's kind oflike, I'm sorry your sister's dead.
But that's not the interesting thing.The interesting thing is this guy's become his
mom and when when Julianne Moore asksRobert Forrester about his sister. I feel
that he's very sorry that he hasto break this news to her. He's

(02:42:24):
not fascinated by by Norman's condition.He's just staying the facts, and they
drop all the transvestite stuff. Theydrop. The interesting one is they dropped
the inference that maybe he killed twoother people. And in the last scene,
even in the ninety eight version,you hear mother talking about the other

(02:42:46):
girls that she killed. Now,I should have years ago. He was
always bad and in the end heintended to tell them that I killed those
girls. And that made as ifI could do anything except just sit and
stairs like one of the step bird. So I don't know why that got

(02:43:09):
Yeah, that got excised because Ithink that's such an important thing, and
it goes back to what I wassaying about Cabin one is a death trap,
and other people have had met thosesimilar fates, and it just it
ties back everything together. And thefact that they didn't do that in the
ninety eight version really baffles me.Yes, baffling indeed. Yeah, the

(02:43:31):
way that Simon Oakland delivers it wayyes and no and this, and it's
very theatrical. Yeah, he's inanother movie. He's in a movie where
they've gathered all the suspects into thedrawing room. He's going to be the
whodunnit detective and it's like, that'sthat's not this stan Mall, It's not
the same. I don't know howTony Perkins conveys at the end with that

(02:43:54):
grin that he just had me completelythinking I was looking at a woman in
that moment, so weird because it'sclearly Tony Perkins's face. But I forgot
while watching it that Mother was notactually trapped in his mind, you know,
like that mother herself the person thebad one was not. He had

(02:44:15):
me fully believing it was Mother's actualspirit talking, and it's not. It's
Tony Perkins dissociating very mentally ill,untreated sickness. You know, it's tragic,
of course, but like he hasme completely believing that it's a whole
other person. And with vins Vaughan, I mean that crazy high angle,
that natural born killersy like look thathe has, it's just it ain't good.

(02:44:41):
So yeah, with that, Ifeel like we've said it all about
about Psycho. Let's give out someawards, shall we? Best Performance by

(02:45:05):
a Lead Actor, nineteen sixty TonyPerkins. Hands down, I'm going with
uh Genely Ah interesting, I'm gonnago Gentely I you know, I mean
it's a close one. It's it'syeah, they're they're both winners. Let's

(02:45:26):
go to ninety eight. Best Performanceby a lead actor. You have two
to choose from those, roll them. Yeah, it's it's Vince Vaughn for
me, he's coming. It's he'sbetter than an Anne Hash. I'm sorry,
I mean I have to I haveto go with Anne Hash. Oh
interested. I bought her as anineties version of that character. I never

(02:45:50):
bought Vince Vaughn. Yeah. Howabout Best Performance by a Supporting Actor nineteen
sixty, Martin Balsom. I'm withyou there, Martin Balsom is great.
Best Supporting Performance ninety eight. Igotta say my Robert Forrester man. He

(02:46:13):
It's just crazy to me that thething that works least good about the original
is probably the thing that works thebest in the remake, because because Robert
Forrester can do no wrong. Ilove that man so much. He just
saves the entire film. He isa matter of fact, yet he still
has heart. He has sympathy Forlilahand compassion for Norman. You know,

(02:46:35):
he clearly lays out the information forthe audience. He's not impartial, but
just partial enough, like Robert Forrester. I love him. I love this
man. I'm going to give itto one William H. Macy because I
believe the movie that he's in isthe movie that I want to watch.
That's for damn sure, that isfor damn sure. All right, how

(02:46:58):
about your MVP nineteen sixty So listeners, MVP award can go to anyone in
the cast or crew. We decidedso this can be like director, writer,
any actor supporting or lead. I'mpicking Bernard Herman. I want to
take Hitchcock. Yeah, but Psychoto me is the music. You do

(02:47:20):
not have Psycho without the music.It was clear it was shown to Hitchcock
when the film was done. Hewas had major doubts and there was no
music that in that shower scene,and Bernard Herman was like, let me
take a stab at it. Igot this, let me take stab at
it. Made it funny. Yeah, he saves the pick. He saves
the film, I mean the film, not like the film needed saving,

(02:47:41):
but he makes it even better.Um, well didn't they wasn't the originally
supposed to be like a jazz scoreto it, he wanted a jazz score.
Yeah, it would have just havebeen like so wrong to do it.
Needed that that string store. Thatwas my MVP too, Bernard Herman
the music, and that can belistened to on its own anytime you hear

(02:48:03):
those those shrieking strings in anything else. I mean, I mean, how
many people like, like you know, when they're pretending to do something go.
Yeah, it has become so iconic, almost as almost as iconic as
the movie itself. Oh yeah,that's what I'm saying. Psycho is the
music. Yeah, who is yourMVP for the Night ninety eight version?

(02:48:28):
I want to say Robert Forrester againbecause it can can the same actor win
twice? Because seriously, he savesthe film for me. Like, there's
so little that I like about theninety eight remake, and Robert Forrester is
like the only thing that I reallylike. We have established no rules here
so that if you can, youcan pick pick Forrester for all all the
awards. That's great. Yeah,I really really love Robert Forrester. I'm

(02:48:52):
gonna go and I know this mightbe might be controversial. I'm gonna go
with Christopher Doyle in a Photographer.I think I thought you were going to
say that. I really do thinkthat he made a choice and he stuck
with it, and I really appreciatethe fact that he made a very bold
choice, and I think on thelevel of making that bold choice, that

(02:49:15):
choice works. Is it right forthe story? I don't know, but
but it does work for that movie. Least Valuable Player nineteen sixty, I'm
sorry, it's John Gavin for me. He did nothing nothing for me,
Yeah, just a least valuable player, meaning like he could insert any guy

(02:49:39):
here and it's fine. You know, he didn't add anything. He didn't
really take away anything, but hecertainly didn't add much. Yeah, I'm
gonna I'll stick with I'll stick withJohn Gavin on that one too. He
doesn't bug me. But I mean, in a cast full of perfect exactly,
that's what I'm saying, Like,there's yeah, yeah, that well

(02:50:00):
said, all right, And nowLeast Valuable Player ninety eight, The least
valuable player in the whole film tome is one miss Beatrix Aruna Passtour,
the costume desider. I'm sorry,they were the war those shirts, the

(02:50:20):
turtleneck that Vince Vaughan is wearing,the tiger stripes, I'm sorry, the
oversized suit on Bill Macy. No, no, the polyester robe for shame,
Beatrix Aruna Passtor for shame. Yeah. Sorry. I'm gonna go with
whoever edited this movie because again,as we were talking about before, and

(02:50:45):
I don't have an editor's name onthis, but as we were talking about
before, pace, the pace iswrong. The timing on stuff is wrong.
It feels fifteen minutes longer and it'sfour minutes shorter. That's what you
said. That's exactly right, That'sexactly right. Now, honorable mentions John
Anderson. I couldn't choose between JohnAnderson and Pat Hitchcock because I really enjoy

(02:51:07):
Pat Hitchcock in that in that officescene. But I think that the car
salesman scene is such an enjoyable watchfor me, Like I love the beginning
of this film, the noir nousof it. It's so it's it's so
um, not like an easy watch, but it's an enjoyable watch, you
know, Like I'm enjoying getting inclose to Janet Lee and her character and

(02:51:30):
when she gets to that car dealershipand the cop is across the road and
all this pressure. It's it's it'splaying on so many perfect levels because John
Anderson is bringing so much humor andhe's just a guy's just a car.
It's too nice, and they'd argueand you know, I'm just going to
treat us adar and fine, youcan't argue with me, honey. Like
he's just so cute. He's makingsuch a thing out of this character,

(02:51:52):
and it's so unexpected. It's likethat didn't need to be that great.
You could have totally gotten away withthis film as being just as good without
him being so spectacular. But hejust is. He's spectacular. Good room,
John Andrewshonon, any of anybody witha whistle in her voice is all
right in my book. Um,I'm gonna go with the guy who played

(02:52:13):
the rich asshole. I don't havehis I don't have that actor's name in
front of me for nineteen sixty Ohbut Cassidy Frank Albertson or sorry not Frank
Albertson, m Chad Everett, No, yeah, you know it was,
Yeah, it was Frank Albertson.Frank Alberton yea. Yeah, yeah,
because unbeknownst to anybody else in thismovie, he's the catalyst. He is

(02:52:39):
the one that kind of sets everythingin motion by being a big old creep.
You know, maybe if you weren'tsuch a creep and dumping money on
somebody's desk, maybe this wouldn't havehappened. Maybe if you just opened a
checking account like a normal person.Yeah, that's that's such a good point.
If he had been less lecherous andgross, she probably wouldn't have been

(02:53:00):
okay with stealing from him. Butyou can see it in her smile in
the car. She's like, yeah, that pervert, Yeah, I stole
his money. Like, maybe ifhe was a nicer guy and not all
up on her ship and hitting onher all weirdly, maybe she wouldn't have
done what she did. So,yeah, he is kind of the catalyst.
You're right, all right, giveme an honorable mention for ninety eight.
I really really loved the cop chatEverett or no, sorry, James

(02:53:26):
Ramar. James, that's mine too, that's mine too, looking right at
the word, and I said chat. Ever, yes, James Remar.
Indeed, he just like I said, he does. It's the perfect way
to pay homage to the original anddo it such justice but not copy.

(02:53:48):
And it's a fine line, youwalk. Well, we got to decide
now, Oh god right, yeah, yeah, one of these movies gets
to live a very long life.The other movie gets stuffed in a trunk,
stabbed in a shower, you know, strychnine in the bed, whatever,

(02:54:09):
whatever death you want to give them, Jade, I'll give you.
I'll give you the first vote.I don't know which way this is going
to go, but I wanted to. Once you give you the first vote,
i'm gonna say, buy a hairjust squeaks right past it. I'm
gonna say the nineteen sixty Psycho isshall live to see another day? Yeah.

(02:54:30):
It was a close call. ThatWow, this is um stunning in
a lot of ways. Um yeah, you know, I really wanted to
go with the nineteen sixty, andso I shall the nineteen sixty head and
shoulders, knees and toes above theninety eight. And again, I am

(02:54:52):
so glad to see the ninety eight. I did have enjoyed watching it from
this point of view. If Iwas sitting down to an and enjoy an
entertainment, I would have been livid. I encourage everybody. There is a
version out there called Psychos Psycho slashs. It's on YouTube. It's an

(02:55:13):
interpolation of the two movies. Don'tbother renting the ninety eight version, but
watch that and to see how thingspop up differently and how they play things
differently. It is fascinating. Yeah, it's fascinatings LinkedIn in the showdouts for
sure. Good good so yeah,nineteen sixty congratulations ninety eight here comes mama.

(02:55:43):
All right, guys, that isgoing to wrap up today's discussion of
Psycho. Oh my goodness, thankyou for joining us for our first episode.
Seriously, we did it. Don'tforget to subscribe to the podcast so
you won't miss our where we willbe discussing all things Peter Pan. Yes,

(02:56:07):
indeed, we will be comparing andcontrasting four film versions of Peter Pan.
So we're going to be talking aboutthe Disney cartoon Peter Pan nineteen fifty
three and Disney's latest live action PeterPan and Wendy twenty twenty three. Both
of those are obviously available on DisneyPlus. And also we're going to be
talking about Hook nineteen ninety one,which is now available on Netflix at the
time of recording this podcast, andMary Martin's Made for TV musical from nineteen

(02:56:31):
sixty because it's my favorite and we'retalking about it. So the link for
that is in the show notes.It's a free version on YouTube. You
don't need to pay for YouTube towatch that. And the following episode will
be on Little Shop of Horrors.Will be comparing The Little Shop of Horrors
nineteen sixty starring Jack Nicholson to TheLittle Shop of Horrors nineteen eighty six musical

(02:56:54):
directed by Frank Oz. Both filmscurrently available to stream on Amazon Prime,
YouTube Premium and a bunch of otherplaces like to be Crackle, Filo.
What is filo filo? There's somany of these things. Just give it,
Just give it a Google search,you'll find it. Yes, yes,

(02:57:15):
yeah. The reason we're announcing ournext two films ahead of time is
just to give you guys, likeplenty of time to watch the films and
think about how you feel about them, so that you can leave us some
feedback. Please tell the folks howthey can do that, Paul. You
can find us on Facebook and Instagramat Shall We Compare thee There are links
in the show notes, and youcan also send us an email at Shall
we Compare the at gmail dot com. Yes, please leave us feedback.

(02:57:41):
Well, if you've listened to mepodcast ever before, you know I love
feedback, and yes, so leavea comment on any of our posts or
just email us with a written messageor even better a voice message and we
will read and respond to your commentson the podcast and let us know.
You know, how do you feelabout the films? Just like tell us
do you like them? D dislikethem? Do you have a suggestion for

(02:58:03):
a film that we can You know, we take requests, so anything you'd
like us to cover, let usknow, And we plan on putting up
a list of the films that wehave that we would we plan to do
an episode on. So if there'sanything that jumps out at you and you
want us to bump it to thetop, just let us know. And
we also since we're brands Spagan newpodcast, you know, if you're enjoying,

(02:58:24):
if you enjoyed the episode, pleaseleave us a rating and review.
Please wherever you're listening to the podcast. It means so much, It does
so much for me just in myheart, and it makes me very happy.
But it also makes it easier forother people to find us. Bill
make Jade's heart happy, please pleasedo. And yeah, don't forget to
check the show show notes for allthe links to all the articles we mentioned.

(02:58:46):
There's a lot, there's a ton. I took great care to include
every reference, so they're all inthere. A plethora of hitchcock and psycho
knowledge. I think that wraps itup. It is what we call late
in them evening or early in themorning, and we did it. So
I will say to you, welldone, Jade. Oh indeed, Paul,

(02:59:09):
well done. If I do sayso myself. I've had a great
time chatting with you tonight. Ihave enjoyed this more than anything. Oh
and listeners, thank you so muchfor joining us. Until next time,
I'm Jade, and until next timeI'm Paul. Bye bye bye

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