Interpretation is Co-Creation | Gris (Ep. 145) - Pixel Project Radio: A Video Game Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:25):
Welcome back to Pixel Project Radio, the video game discussions
podcast where we do deep dives and analyze all of
our favorite games and some of yours too. It's been
a while since I've recorded. We had to take a
little break. It's the first recording back. You look great,
I look the same. My name is Rick, of course,
that was my derivative Marin impression. Now that his show's ending,

(00:46):
someone's got to pick it up.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
Right.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
Today we are talking all about Grease, an artistic platformer. Well,
we'll get into it. We'll talk all about it. Before
we do. I have to thank the patron's up top.
It is them that keeps this train moving and I
appreciate them very much. If you would like to be
like these fine fine folks, you can head on over
to patreon dot com slash pixel Project Radio and support

(01:09):
your favorite indie creator, which is me. Of course it is,
or maybe it's not. That's fine too. I have a
first time guest on the show today, which is very exciting.
From the one hour, One Decision podcast half of that duo.
We've got Chris joining me today. Chris, thanks for coming by.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
How's it going, Hey, thanks so much for having me on. Yes,
first time guest, longtime listener. I really appreciate your podcast
and all the deep dives and stuff that you do,
as my simple brain sometimes cannot get to those the
dots that you connect on these games, so I always

(01:49):
appreciate you kind of taking the time to break down
with these games. So excited to be here. Hopefully won't
bog down the conversation too much, but let's do this.

Speaker 1 (01:59):
No, no, no, no, no, You're not gonna bog anything down.
I get all the bad takes out of the way
and cut that out in editing, so nobody is any
of the wiser.

Speaker 2 (02:08):
Fair enough.

Speaker 1 (02:09):
So we're talking Grease today, which is a game that
I had never played before and I'm very excited to
talk about. I played it for the first time for
this show. What about you, Chris, what's your history with Greece?
Did you play this when it first came out?

Speaker 2 (02:23):
No, I did not. Actually, a friend of mine, a
friend of mine, a long time Larry from the World
One One podcast told me about this game many many times,
and I and Tom got to play it for our
show on episode one and you know, talk about it
and play you know, we played the first hour of

(02:45):
it and spoiler we did. I kept playing the game
and wanted to just because it was short, but at
the same time pretty compelling to keep going. So I
definitely finished this game. So I do know how it ends.
Maybe not the full ending, but I do know how

(03:05):
it ends. And yeah, so I'm excited to get into
this game. And you know, hear your thoughts as well.

Speaker 1 (03:12):
Listeners will learn more about your show towards the end
when we talk more about One Hour, One Decision. But
I'm assuming since you played beyond the one hour that
you and Tom cover on the show, I'm guessing that
you really like this game.

Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah. I had a good time playing this game. It
was almost like a cozy platformer. Sure.

Speaker 1 (03:31):
Sure cozy is is you know, certainly one word you
could use to describe it.

Speaker 2 (03:35):
In a way, in a way like I mean what
I mean to say, Yes, there are definitely themes, difficult
themes that are that are kind of talked about or
described in this game or hinted at in this game.
But what I mean to say is like it is
not punishing like a Celeste or a super Meat Boy
or something like that, like that kind of platformer. Sure,

(03:56):
So that's what I mean by cozy. Sure, sure die.
You can't die in this game.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
We'll talk well, some interpretations say you may already have.
We'll talk more about the platforming elements. I think as
we go on. I'm with you. I also really like
this game. I liked it more than I thought I would.
There are some things that I there are some things
that I wish it didn't do, but those are those

(04:21):
are so minor. I think this is a very effective work.
And I don't really know where else to put this.
I put this in the notes. I'm not sure where
else I could put this, so I just threw it
up up top. I appreciate how descriptive this is and
not prescriptive, meaning there is not a The plot of

(04:42):
this is not the point of this, right. Something that
I've been talking about on the show recently is the
difference between the plot and the story. And honestly, you know,
unlikely as it may seem, Video game Donkey is kind
of the one that got me to start thinking about this.
You know, like, the plot is what happens in the story,
but the story is what you experience going through it,

(05:03):
and the plot of this isn't the point to that end,
you know, listeners. We usually say that we don't give
spoilers before we start talking about the story. Capital t Capitalists.
We're still going to do that. We're not going to
reveal any of the secrets. But I will say one,
I think the preamble discussion will be a little shorter.

Speaker 2 (05:22):
Because of that.

Speaker 1 (05:23):
But two, even if you do know exactly what happens
in this game, even if you know exactly what the
reads of this are, I think it won't spoil it
for you. It's not an auditory medium, can only go
so far, and it will not take away from playing
this for the first time and experiencing it auditorially and

(05:44):
visually that that will still be your primary experience and
it will still be effective even if you know exactly
what this game is trying to do.

Speaker 2 (05:53):
Yeah, and it's funny you mentioned the plot versus a
story Tom and I always talk about, and I think
this game does a good job of it. It might
be a similar way of describing it, but like, I
feel like this game does a good job of doing
show and don't tell absolutely You're you're You're really like

(06:13):
there's no exposition at all, and so you have to
kind of figure out what the heck is going on?
Why why is all this stuff happening? And and and
then like yeah, we'll talk about it as it gets
a spoiler part, but like, yeah, there's just a lot
of things that are like, oh now I got.

Speaker 1 (06:29):
It, and it sets after that, right, But the interpretation
is a big part of this, and in some in
some ways it is the most important part of this
is the interpretation. It's sort of like, you know, like
a Beethoven or a rockmaninov symphony, you get different things
the more you play them. To that end, I wanted
to preface our discussion with this idea of pure art.

(06:53):
I read that phrase a few times this week when
I was reading essays and blogs and stuff like that.
Pure art. There is no such thing. I think. You know,
when we say pure art, something is pure art. This
game Increase is pure art. What we are really saying,
what we mean by the words that we are saying,
is that this game is fantastic. This is an art
of the highest caliber. Right when we say pure art,

(07:15):
we are saying art distilled to its highest degree. But
what pure art implies is that there is art that
is impure, or that there is some sort of standardization
that we can apply to this, and that simply is
not so. We are always viewing and creating through ideologies,

(07:37):
through biases, and through our own lenses. There is us
in everything we create, and there is we behind every
set of eyes through which we view it. But paradoxically,
this is precisely what brings us closer to that idealistic
notion of pure art, of art that can resonate in
so many different ways to so many different people, such

(07:57):
that it transcends to some fantas tastic importance, and it
all rises out of being human and being messy and
the baggage and troubles that come with that. That is
what this game is about. It is about viewing what
is presented to you and bringing yourself to it. To
that end, the narrative, the plot of Greece is not

(08:20):
the important thing. There are things that happen, and we
will get into that, but that's not the important thing.
I want to shout out one of my favorite current YouTubers,
Robin Walden, who I picked this phrase up from. Interpretation
is a co creation between the author and the interpreter.
Interpretation is a co creation between the author and the interpreter,

(08:41):
and that is what Greece is about. And honestly, Chris
and I don't mean, oh my god, listeners are probably
laughing because once again I'm going off on a tangent
in front of the guests and not letting you speak.
But that is why I'm so passionate and ardent about
saying there is no right way to critique something, no
right way to interpret a book or to interpret a symphony.

(09:04):
Death of the author, you know, back to that who
was it Roland Barnes, I think who said that. There's
a great article on medium about Greece and death of
the Author by Max Goldstein. But this idea that we
co create with the creator the author as interpreters to
create this new thing. And that's why every analyzation and

(09:26):
every essay is unique and special. People don't come to
my show because they're looking for the objective take or
the right take. They come to hear what I'm creating
with my guest and with the author of the work
that we're talking about. That all coalesces into something special
and beautiful and new and human, And that is the

(09:48):
point of all of this. There is no right way
to interpret Greece, and anybody that comes to my show
looking for that is sorely mistaken. You're not gonna get it.
You're going to get my lens and my bias, and
that's part of what makes this process also beautiful.

Speaker 2 (10:05):
Yeah, And I mean you touched on a lot of
points right now.

Speaker 3 (10:08):
And the thing I went on and on and on
and on, No, not like that.

Speaker 2 (10:14):
It was no shade to that at all. But what
I mean to say is, like you mentioned how there
is no pure art, and like it's it's interesting when
you think about that, because yeah, like everything has some
sort of influence, like your influence in some way, shape
or form by some life moment or or or something
that's really inspired you. Right, That's yeah, that's we can't

(10:36):
like we could literally go back all the way to
when the cavemen were scratching stuff on the walls and
maybe maybe then we could say that's pure art, if
you really wanted to go that far. But like the
thing that I I really what resonated with what you
were saying right now is like you are forming this
opinion and like I think, I think the reason why

(10:57):
a lot of people listen to your show is they
they are appreciate your perspective that your your perspective is
aligns with what they're thinking as well too, I think,
and unfortunately we're at this time in human history where
we are kind of doing that, where where people are
just trying to find like minded individuals and yeah, and

(11:19):
without that. The problem with that, of course is you've
you've you've built your own echo chamber, right right, and
that I I mean, like this game, this game, I'll
be I'll be honest, Like, this is a game I
was actually avoiding playing for a while because it was like,
this isn't like a game that I would necessarily play.
And because of that, you know it is it is.

(11:39):
It's important to have that kind of perspective, understand where
that is and like and like, I think going back
to the whole pure art thing, I think there is
still a way for things to be pure art because
if you really, sorry, if you really put your your
your your soul, your your personality into something, I feel

(12:00):
like that's what really resonates with a lot of people.
And that's what I feel like. You can have these conversations,
whether it's good or bad. I think that that's important
with a discussion with art, whether it's pure art or not.
But I think that's like what you want to be
able to get out of it as an artist as well.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
When the creators of Greece put their full selves into
their work into Greece, then we become the next slot
in the relay. It becomes our responsibility to pick it up,
put our whole selves into this interpretation, this analysis, and
this analysis and create something new and beautiful. Yeah. Man,
that's well said. I couldn't agree more. This is where

(12:43):
the community forum would usually go. Surprisingly, there is none.
Nobody's fascinated for listeners that may be new. First of all, welcome,
glad that you're here. The community forum is a channel
in the discord server where I post what we're talking
about and give everybody an opportunity to weigh in with
their thoughts, critiques, feelings, whatever. Nobody submitted for Greece. That's okay,

(13:05):
that happens, and Chris, in all honesty, I'll share with you,
I didn't want to play this either. I almost reached
out to you to cancel. Well, I won't get into it.
There was a death in my family and I had
a moment. I had a moment where I wasn't sure
if I would be able to get through this, but

(13:27):
you know, it worked out and we'll talk more about it.
That's part of why you know this game is not prescriptive.
It's not strictly about the loss of somebody, which is
part of what makes this so effective. But let's talk Greece.
What is Greece? Greece is a platformer that explores grief,
loss and the acceptance found within that process. It was

(13:50):
released in December of twenty eighteen for PC and switch,
came to PS four shortly after November of twenty nineteen,
and then came to the Contemporary Systems PS five xpone
series in December of twenty twenty two. You can find
the full credits on the IMDV on the wiki, or
you could beat the game and watch the credits. But
of note, this was developed by Nomada Studio, published by

(14:11):
Devolver Digital. They put out some good stuff. Directed by
Conrad Rosette or is it Rose? Not sure?

Speaker 2 (14:19):
Eh? Europea Go with the Fans rosaet.

Speaker 1 (14:24):
Produced by Roger Mendoza art also by Conrad Rosette. Rose
composed by Berlinist. Berlinist is a sort of moniker for
a group of folks, sometimes going under a solo work.
They describe themselves on their website as a music band
and a producer based in Barcelona who have been producing

(14:45):
original music for digital apps, art exhibitions and video games.
They've done some other games like Neva, which was the
follow up to this I'm pretty sure, and Wordless and
other non game projects like now remember a small project
called Wowster. I think sounds for opera GX, the gaming browser.
That's kind of just spyware. Yeah, yeah, don't use opera folks.

(15:08):
All right, that's kind of what this game is. Let's
talk about what's under the hood. Let's start with the mechanics.

(15:33):
This will be a light section. It is a platformer,
but a key design philosophy, at least as it seems
to me, is to never let the physical mechanics impede
the philosophical mechanics, which is to say, discovery and exploration
are far more important than the physical platforming skills. And
I like that you had mentioned Super meat Boy before, Chris,

(15:54):
because this is kind of the anti super meat Boy, right,
super meat Boys not really. You know, it doesn't have
much to say in terms of the human condition. You
just have to be really good at platforming. This is
kind of the opposite. You don't need to be really good.
It wants you to think about the larger implications of
what the work is trying to say to you.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
Yeah, that's fair. I mean, I would say for the
most part, they did a good job. There's there were like,
I guess you want to call it platforming puzzles and
you're closer to the end of the game that I
felt like I got frustrated, like especially like during when
you're like you're like the flower section where you get
that ability and stuff like that, so I was like,

(16:33):
what the heck is going on? But yeah, I agree,
Like there wasn't a moment where yeah, you don't there
is no fail state. It is just like allowing you
to discover the world, like what is going on? And
this does a pretty good job of environmental storytelling.

Speaker 1 (16:49):
I would say, yeah, it I think you said it
best earlier. It tells, it says what it wants to
say through showing rather than telling.

Speaker 2 (16:58):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 1 (16:58):
And I think that's you know, that's one of the
reasons that I like this so much. I don't know
if you've noticed this same trend, but it seems to
me with video games there is a tendency to over explain,
to hammer the point home with every bit of lore
and dialogue. For example, I'm playing Death Stranding right now,
and look, look there's I like a lot of what

(17:18):
they're doing, but some of this dialogue is literally Kojima
and his team saying, are you catching what we're putting down?

Speaker 2 (17:25):
Hey?

Speaker 1 (17:25):
Did you notice this? Aren't we clever?

Speaker 2 (17:27):
It's just like he's elbowing you.

Speaker 1 (17:30):
Hey, check this out.

Speaker 2 (17:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:31):
Strand it's kind of like a rope huh, but it
can also mean stranded.

Speaker 2 (17:36):
Huh. Ohh I was.

Speaker 1 (17:38):
I was laughing during that scene. It was so so right.

Speaker 2 (17:42):
I feel like he just fell off after meddle Gear
saw the three. I know it's a hot take, but
you know, whatever, whatever, But like I, I do appreciate,
I did play the game a little bit. I do appreciate.
I actually liked the walking mechanic. I thought that was
actually pretty cool. It was just his obsession with and
again I'm going now I'm going off a tangent, but

(18:05):
the obsession with cutscenes and like, like you said, like
the over exposition about everything, like, oh my god, just
let me play the game, let me figure out this
way that was the it's not a game anymore.

Speaker 1 (18:18):
Well, we'll be talking more folks about Death Stranding next month.
We've got three episodes devoted to it. One one thing
that that kind of Greece does similar is the pace
of play with Death Stranding is pretty similar. They're both
more or less slow paced. I mean Greece is certainly
more so. It's a slow pace of play. The anti
Super meat Boy. You know, we had also mentioned Celesti.

(18:40):
Celesti is kind of an anomaly where it does everything amazingly.
It's it's just a pinnacle of platforming.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
But uh, I'll be honest, I haven't played it yet,
but yeah, from what I've heard, yes, I've heard it's fantastic.

Speaker 1 (18:53):
But this one, you don't. You know, if you see
this as a platformer, it shouldn't scare you off. If
you think about things like Super meat Boy or even
Craft Fandicoot, it's not that kind of game. It's very forgiving.
Like you had said, Chris, if you're gonna get stuck anywhere,
it might be on a few of the puzzles.

Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, I agree. And and when you were talking about
the pace, it's like it's but the thing that frustrated
me the most. It was like a forced slowness, like
there are moments where you literally like like there there
have been games, other games that have done this where
it's like you know where like even in our Charted
like where where like Nathan Gray Nathan Drake gets injured

(19:30):
and then like you're just slowly plodding along and it's
like come on, man, just move or like or like
God of War twenty eighteen. I don't like that game
because they do those moments where they hat to do
the exposition and then got Credos has to slowly walk
across whatever it is so that you make sure you
get the exposition. It's like, ah, it's that that forced

(19:52):
kind of hamstringing of you, is of your character, of
your actions is just always like frustrating to me.

Speaker 1 (19:59):
I can, I can see what you mean. My counter
to that would be, I think if the pace of
play of Grease were faster, it would detract a little
bit from the overall identity, like it would be kind
of at odds. Again, Celeste is kind of a special case.
It is very fast and it has a lot to say.
This though, is largely exploring the journey through grief. And hm,

(20:23):
I think you could make that a game that is
very fast paced. I think it would need to be
done in a different visual style, which is what we're
talking about next, because the visuals are such a large
part of what makes this come to life, and going
completely through them would would really do them a disservice.

Speaker 2 (20:40):
But like I would also counter the counter by saying,
could your game design account for that? Sure? What I
mean to say is like, make make the levels maybe
a little bit larger, make them a little bit more vertical.
I don't know, like just something about that where yeah,
you could go at a faster pace, but then it
just make the world a little bit bigger so that

(21:02):
you can still give the opportunity to explore the world
as it is. I'm not saying my take is is
the definitive answer to everything, but I'm just I'm like,
could there be is there is there a another version
of this game that could be possible where yeah, you
can play this a little bit faster while still thinking

(21:23):
about this kind of the themes that are happening there, Like,
don't get me wrong, Like even even though I brought
up like like the the Uncharted, Like I'm sure like
the Last of Us did, and all other third person
games probably have done this in one in some way,
shape or form. But like having those moments where you're
slowed down, where your character is in impaired in some way,

(21:45):
I don't know, it's it's always just like why, like
you have that moment to struggle and like and like
you like constantly like matching your controller to try and
make the move. It's like, but it's not going to
do anything better? Like yeah, to your point, like you,
is that like an artistic thing? Is that the reason,
like they want you to struggle more, to feel that

(22:05):
the weight of this situation.

Speaker 1 (22:07):
And I think that's the heart of it. It's an
artistic decision, just as our you know, just as your
analysis and my analysis says more about us as people
than it does about Greece. Really, their design choices say
a lot about them as creators too. They made the
conscious choice to make this a contemplative game in soundscape

(22:28):
and visuals and in movement speed, and I think that
ultimately says a lot about their own lens through which
they're viewing life and their experiences. I agree with you,
there's probably a way that they could have up the
pace of play, I mean, especially in certain sections. I
personally like it as it is, but I'm not going

(22:50):
to tell anybody that they're wrong if they thought this
was too slow, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (22:55):
No, And like, look, I feel like if you if
you really like increase the pace of play, yeah, then
maybe this game is not like three hours. It's maybe
more like maybe an hour hour and a half if
if you're able to cheat the system, so to speak. So,
I mean, I get it. There are things that I
know that they wanted to make sure everyone experienced the

(23:18):
same way, and if they needed to slow things down
to do that, that's fine, I get it.

Speaker 1 (23:24):
We alluded to the contemplative nature of the game through
visuals and music, so let's talk about those. Those both
play a huge part in Greece.

Speaker 2 (23:34):
Yeah, and visuals.

Speaker 1 (23:35):
I think Greece's visual language is maybe the most important
part of its identity.

Speaker 2 (23:42):
Absolutely. What did you?

Speaker 1 (23:43):
Are you a fan of this general art style, this
art direction overall?

Speaker 2 (23:48):
Yes? The thing I like freaked me out a little
bit was just the way the character's hands were during gameplay,
hands and arms were during gameplay.

Speaker 3 (24:01):
Okay, anyone, anyone that listens listens to.

Speaker 2 (24:04):
My show, knows like I have. I don't know why
I have a session. I have an obsession with like
first person shooters, with looking down making sure you have feet.
This game has feet, but it is kind of a
weird feet, I'll be honest. It's it's like it's just
like kind of sticks. And then like it's just like
the inconsistency with that where like when you go to

(24:27):
a cut scene, you see she actually has like real
arms and real legs, and it's like, wait, what happened
to those legs and arms during the game. It's just
it's just I don't know. I get, I get I
obsess over little stupid things like this, and that's my problem,
and I will own that. But it's like it that
little things like that just do bother me.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
It's such a bizarre complaint, and I don't I don't
say that to to diminish it, and I don't say
that to make you feel less for thinking that.

Speaker 2 (24:57):
It's just like I already don't have a simple man.

Speaker 1 (24:59):
No no, no, no, not what I meant at all. It's
just that that would have never been on my radar
to even think about it, you know.

Speaker 2 (25:06):
It's just it's just so weird. I don't know why
it bothers people with things like that, but yeah, it
is like that was just one thing that I had
to make sure I wrote down like it. But it
is a beautiful game overall, like the the the environments,
like you know, the cut scenes and everything which is great,
and the music just really I think hit home the

(25:27):
kind of the feeling that you're supposed to have while
you play this game. I think everything just like just
did a great job. Like the beginning, like when you're
when you're just like you see this this girl kind
of like I guess in a way lose she does
lose her voice in the sense right and like you're
you're It almost kind of has like the Metroid Vanya
or like, yeah, I guess kind of metrovening in the

(25:50):
sense that you you lose all your abilities and you
kind of have to go back and get all your
abilities kind of thing. I don't know if it's necessarily
a metro veneing thing, but like there is that where
we're in and in a metrovenue, you get abilities and
then go back to those areas, which then you can
unlock a new thing because you have this ability that

(26:10):
you have now or whatever it is.

Speaker 1 (26:12):
Yeah, not not quite a metroid venue. I don't. I
don't think you do get new abilities. To your point,
to your point about the way that Grease is styled,
Grease the titular character, whenever you are playing as her
on the map, she is stylized. You mainly see her
I don't know if it's a dress or a poncho.
I've been thinking of it as a poncho. Yeah, it's
it's mainly that. And then you see her head, notably

(26:35):
with light teal colored I think tealish colored hair. And then,
as you had mentioned, arms and legs are just sort
of sticks whenever you're playing as her. The art direction
as a whole is watercolor, very watercolor in style, which
is something that I always really really like. I really

(26:55):
like the watercolor esthetic.

Speaker 2 (26:57):
And especially as you progress the game, like the idea
that the world starts to get color back into it,
Like that's just like there's been a couple of games
that kind of do that that I can't now can't
quite remember, but like at the same time, I feel
like I've seen it before, where you see the color

(27:18):
start to come back to the world and it's like
it's just really cool when you see that, and the
colors also, I'm assuming like also mean different stages of
this grief that Greece is going through.

Speaker 1 (27:32):
Yeah, to that point. Anytime color plays a huge role
in a game or in a work of any kind,
my immediate thought is to go to color symbolism and
think about what these are representing. I think you can
maybe make an argument that they work that way here.
I'm not convinced by that argument very much. I think

(27:52):
the argument that I see passed around a lot is
that the colors are representative of the Kubler Ross model
of grieving, which we'll talk about here a little bit.
I find that to be a little juvenile. You know,
red is angry and gray is denial. It's like, yes, okay,
I mean that's that's kind of like a sub one
O one thing. I'm not I guess what I'm saying

(28:12):
is I don't see that as being really additive to
the experience. I don't know that it's wrong, there is
no wrong. But I think the larger, more important thing
is Greece going through this world and slowly reinvigorating it
with color. Which ye if you think about something like
the quote unquote stages of grief or what it means

(28:34):
to grieve and feel things like loss and depression. It's
often described as a colorless world, a pallid world, a
world without vibrancy, and going through this journey with Greece
to reinvigorate that slowly, arduously, one at a time. That
is the point. It's less about what the colors represent,

(28:55):
although you can't argue that, and it's more about bringing
reinvigorating that light back into her world.

Speaker 2 (29:02):
Now, I think that's beautiful absolutely. I mean, anytime there
is loss, like you said, there's there's that moment of
just you feel this void and and and and then
slowly but surely, the idea is that you hopefully get
through that grief and you're you're not the same person
after you get past that, but you try to do

(29:25):
the best you can and and remember maybe the good times,
and remember all the things that that person may or
may not have taught you or like have helped you
in some way, shape or form, And like, yeah, I
think this is this was a I felt like it
was a beautiful way to kind of feel like for you,
for for someone like this, this artist to be able

(29:48):
to portray that in this way.

Speaker 1 (29:51):
So Greece as a word, it's Spanish for gray, that

(30:20):
is the color gray, and Spanish also French. But this
is a Spanish team, so that's neither.

Speaker 2 (30:26):
Here nor there.

Speaker 1 (30:27):
There was also a Spanish painter named Juan Grease that
painted in a Cubism style. I don't, okay, I'm gonna
say cards on the table. I consider like physical art,
painting and things like that one of my weakest suits
when it comes to, you know, engaging with art. I
don't think that I'm particularly good at, you know, talking

(30:50):
about it. I don't see any meaningful connection between this
game's art style and the art style of Juan Greece.
If you were to google him, you would see that
his paintings are very angular and brash, geometric and bold colors.
I have seen other folks saying that this game did
take inspiration from Wan Grease, though, and I'm open to

(31:11):
being wrong. Totally the stylistic language of Grease, though, it
doesn't have that angularity, the brashness, or that quasi absurd,
quasi avant garde nature of Cubism. Grease makes use of
bold colors and geometric patterns, but it lies closer to
that opaqueness and that fuzziness of water colors. It's blended,

(31:34):
it's not angular. The colors are at the forefront, not
the shapes. It's whimsical and surreal, even not brash and
sort of modern. Again, totally open to being wrong. I
do not particularly think highly of myself as somebody that
can talk about, you know, paintings and such. I'm not
very good at that.

Speaker 2 (31:55):
I mean, I would I agree for the most part.
I think the where you would see kind of angular
is like there are I guess sections or parts of
the game where you're like collecting these little lack of
red term like stars or whatever. Yeah, when you put
them back to their kind of constellations, it is kind

(32:15):
of angular there, and there's there's like some sort of
rough or edged shapes that you see throughout. But I agree,
like I mean, I think for the most part though
it is I don't think I don't really see how
how it looks like One Grease's artwork overall.

Speaker 1 (32:32):
Yeah, it's a cool style One Grease, you know, y as,
I mean, it's very cool to look at. It's just
it's not that kind of game. It's it's his his style.
From what I've seen. Again, angularity is the first thing
that jumped on my mind. Like modern geometricism, this is
just not that it's more blended, it's more opaque. It's
got this it's very surreal. I mean, there are little

(32:54):
creatures in here that add to the surreal feeling. It's
you know, I I am a big fan of this.
This reminds me of like, I'm sure this will mean
a lot of things to all listeners, but it reminds
me more of like Chopin than something like, I don't know,
Mahler or Scherenberg. Yeah, you all, you all know exactly

(33:15):
what I mean, right, everybody listening those who is Choppin?
Frederick Choppin? Who's that? One? One visual trick that Celeste
listened to me that Grease does a lot is it
plays with camera, uh, and it pans in and out

(33:37):
a lot, focusing on the sheer expansiveness of the environment,
which I love. That's maybe my favorite visual trick that
they do here. Not that they do a lot of
tricks quote unquote, but they often will pull back the
camera to to very great lengths to show you sort
of one how vast this landscape is, and two maybe

(33:58):
suggesting how all you are in it, you know, I
think any of us. You know, there's a difference between
feeling depressed and being capital d depressed, right, like having
clinical depression and feeling depressed. Those are two different things,
which is which is tricky to talk about. But I
think we've all felt depressed at one point in time
in our lives. And it can feel like the world

(34:20):
around us is just so vast and empty and echoing,
and there's we are just a speck in this huge
landscape that does not care about us. And that's how
this feels at certain points when it pulls back. One,
you know, it can feel very empty, but two, I
mean it can also feel very on inspiring. You know,
these painted backdrops, not backdrops, but these painted landscapes look

(34:45):
so gorgeous and lush once you start getting the color
added back in, and it can go from feeling hopeless
and empty and isolating to feeling like, you know, kind
of onspiring, Like look at how beautiful these cubes made
out of water are. That's so Look at how these
lights are lighting up platforms that I couldn't see. This
is kind of splendid, and it it's and again I

(35:08):
mean talking about going through that journey from quote unquote
denial to acceptance. You feel that isolation to acceptance, right,
And I think the visual, like you had said at
the very front, the visual narrative of this, while not
exactly prescriptive, it's not, you know, telling a story like
a storybook would, it's very suggestive of that journey. And man,

(35:32):
it's I really loved it. I love how this is
presented and shot like cinematically.

Speaker 2 (35:38):
If I remember correctly, from a little bit of research
that we Tom and I did about this game, like, yeah,
I feel like the the developers found this Conrad Rosette
and like and his art and was like, we need
to make a game based on this stuff and like
and then they were able to form all this and like, yeah,

(36:00):
they they had a vision and Conrad had this vision too.
You could see every I feel like every frame you
could see that there is a there's a purpose and
built around everything. And yeah, I agree, Like at the beginning,
especially when there is no color and when the when
the camera does pan out, you do you do feel

(36:22):
a sense of like hopelessness. You do feel like a
sense of like what what else can I do? Like
and especially like when when you are plotting around very
slowly and it's just like it is, it's difficult. But
then yeah, as you get to those like those areas
where there's more green, like that the forest areas, and
when you have like other characters that you're interacting with,

(36:42):
so to speak, and like it's it there is like
you start to feel that sense of hope and you
get all these different ranges of emotion just playing through
this game, and I like, yeah, it's it's it's just
very well done overall with that.

Speaker 1 (36:57):
Yeah, no, it sure is. I completely agree. Let's talk
music and sound. Not a lot of sound in this game,
as you might think when we talk about other games.
There's no voice acting. There is singing, right, but there
is no voice acting. There's no voice dialogue. You often
hear Greece's footsteps echoing off of the landscapes. Otherwise, not

(37:18):
a ton of sound to speak of. But there is
a soundtrack by Berlinist and it's more of a sound
scape than anything. It's very sparse, but at times it
becomes the motor to a scene's destination and the impact
the music itself is very much I think a sort
of character, but not one that tries to steal the

(37:40):
spotlight and be at the forefront. It very much sits
in the background to emphasize the storytelling that's going on.
It's the MSG in that way you don't want to
taste it, but it just elevates everything around it.

Speaker 2 (37:54):
Yeah, yeah, I agree. It was definitely the extra spice,
the extra Emerald Legassi Bam that you wanted throughout this game. Yeah,
where they just I felt like they just took a
lot of carring and feted, like, like I said, every frame,
like Okay, this is the moment that we want the
music to kick in. Like literally, I feel like they

(38:17):
had it down to the second in terms of like
making sure you knew this is like a very important
moment in this character's life and what the player should
feel as well.

Speaker 1 (38:29):
Yeah, and you see that a lot in films, in
film scoring and television scoring, where the composer will have
to readjust their material to hit different marks. Right, you know,
you want the woodblock to hit when the person knocks
on the door, or you want the brass to make
a big splat whenever somebody drops their dag would sandwich
under the floor, I don't know, something like that.

Speaker 2 (38:50):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (38:51):
It feels like that everything feels sort of what staged
scripted in that way.

Speaker 2 (38:57):
Yeah, yeah, I mean to your point about the how
I would say the sound design outside of the music
was carefully crafted as well, because again, at the beginning,
like you said, you're kind of like walking around in
this kind of marble decrepit world, and then as you

(39:18):
bring life to this environment you have, you know, there's
like that forest environment where you hear kind of the
ambiance of that environment, and then like it was so
cool like when you're in the water world where like
they cut out the sound and like kind of make
things a little muted as you're going through. Like there
was just a lot of these little touches throughout the

(39:39):
game that like I just really appreciated.

Speaker 1 (39:42):
Yeah, they play with silence as much as they do
with sound. It's it's yeah, it works very well. It's
very complimentary. For as scripted as this feels, I'm wondering
if you agree with me here. For as scripted and
staged as this feels, in terms of how the score
interacts with what's going on in game, everything feels very improvisitory.

(40:03):
It feels less like a composition like we think of
in the traditional sense and more like a group improvisation,
a sound painting kind of deal. There's no traditional well
there is in one or two scenes, but there's largely
no traditional harmonic structure, no traditional melodic structure or form.

(40:24):
It's not like that. It's just soundscapes of piano, synth
and strings that are acting as sort of punctuation marks
throughout the score. There's a repeated cell, a swelling of
a diad, a piano pattern like a glass or reich
esque piano cell repeated with tons of reverb because of course,

(40:45):
but it feels like improvisation that's adding commas and semi
colon's and exclamation points where appropriate, not like a full
Uematsu or a Shimamoto score.

Speaker 2 (40:57):
Yeah, those people no, but oh come.

Speaker 1 (41:00):
On, you know you know Nosu come on final Yeah yeah,
I mean I have them on, I DM on them
on Twitter all the time.

Speaker 2 (41:07):
But like no, but like, uh, I agree, Like I
felt like there wasn't a moment where I felt like
I felt where in other games I've played, where you
kind of like pass this gate, so to speak, and
then they kick in the music just because you've like
passed the streshold. Like it didn't feel like that. It's like,
to your point, it was just like everything felt natural,

(41:30):
everything felt like there was a purpose to it, and
you couldn't like break it in a way. Also, if
that makes sense, Like it was like anything you do,
like the game kind of reacted to it in a way.
And and this was like, granted, obviously we're only playing
in a two D landscape, right, so there's there's not
that much you could break. But at the same time,

(41:51):
it was just like, Okay, they knew the bounds that
you could play around with, and then with that, they
took the opportunity to make sure that the music and
all the other sounds played with you as opposed to
like waiting for you to do something they didn't play.

Speaker 1 (42:09):
Yeah, precisely. So I think playing with you is a
good way to think about it. A reaction based score
is a good way to think about it. You're not
going to get the depression level theme on the soundtrack.
That's just not something that's going to be there, right,
that's not World one two, Right, You're not going to
be seeing that on the soundtrack. That's just not how
it works. I think it's really well done. I like

(42:33):
that it plays with you in a way to support
the scene and to support the overall arc. I don't
think you know as much as I do. Like Celeste,
we talked about that a little bit earlier. It does
have sort of level themes. You know, where you're doing
a level for however many times you die, and that
soundtrack is going, you know, the whole time. It's songs.

(42:54):
You can find that whole fantastic o st on YouTube.
This isn't quite like that, you know, it's it's going
to different sound cues will occur depending on where you
are in the level and depending on what you're finding,
and that that elevates it. I think it works much
better that way. It's a little closer to theater in
that way, and you know, all the better for it.

Speaker 2 (43:17):
Yeah, I agree. I mean, this is for me, it's
incredible how much they were able to get across in
such a short amount of time. You've got games like
like You've got the personas and the metaphors that take
one hundred plus hours of your life to kind of

(43:37):
get a story across, and or you know, and then
this game does it in you know, over a weekend,
like it's it's incredible what you can do and like
what someone can do in such a in a concentrated
form that in like this game.

Speaker 1 (44:22):
So we're about ready to start talking about the experience
of playing this game. This is typically where we would
put in the spoiler wall, et cetera, before we do
before we you know, give that little jumping off point.
There are a couple of discussion points that I have
put into my notes here. What I like to do
whenever I'm playing a game is I like to read
as many contemporary thoughts about it as I can, as

(44:47):
well as you know, contemporary at the time of the
game's release, as well as contemporary as in whenever I
am existing in that moment. That is to say, I
looked up a lot of what folks were saying when
this game first came out, and I do not agree
with a lot of the way this game was spoken about.
So I've kind of condensed it into three common points
here that I wanted to touch on before folks, you know,

(45:09):
maybe jumped off again. I don't think this is the
kind of game you can spoil, but if you're particularly
sensitive to that, the jumping off point will be after
we talk about these three points. So let's talk about them.
Not a very elegant segue, but you know whatever, it's fine.
So the first thing is something that you touched on
a little bit earlier, at the very beginning. This game

(45:31):
is too easy slash, where's the platforming? I really don't
know why we're having this conversation in twenty twenty five.
It's entirely uninteresting to me. It says nothing. You know,
games should be fun is simply not the argument that
those that use it think it is. I mean, never
mind the fact that fun is entirely too subjective to

(45:53):
define precisely and clearly. It becomes the Texas sharpshooter fallacy
or the moving goalpost fallacy that you know, well, this
isn't fun to me, therefore it fails. Well what is
fun to you? It's a feeling. It's changing for every
single thing. This is such a poor metric to judge
these games by. And as we said before, if the
balance of messaging and gameplay is off for you here,

(46:14):
there are no shortage of challenge centric platformers. Super Meet Boy, Celeste,
a Crash Bandicoot. To a certain extent, maybe even Spyro
I would say is a little more challenging platforming wise
than this is that's coming to this work and expecting
it to be something else when that was never in
the agreed upon contract. This is like going to see

(46:36):
my Dinner with Andre and saying, you know, I don't
get it. Movies are supposed to be fun, you know, ridiculous,
Or listening to like Philip Glass and saying, you know,
where's the verse, where's the course? It doesn't make sense?

Speaker 2 (46:48):
Or playing Hades and be like, I don't get it,
so you know, yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:51):
Yeah, or playing playing Hades and saying this is too horny.
You know you're coming to a game expect it never
agreed to not be that.

Speaker 2 (46:58):
I mean, I am a I still have yet to
play a roguelike that I have enjoyed. So just just
so you're aware, and Hades is also part of that,
But like you know, I will try them out. I
will see like, hey, is this the one? Is this
the one that's going to get me over the MP
I've tried them and I've just not for me. I
don't know what it is, but anyway, that's another tangle.

(47:20):
I'm curious.

Speaker 1 (47:20):
I don't want to speak for you. Is this an
argument that that resonates with you at all, Like I
can say it doesn't resonate at all for me when
folks say this game is not fun. You know, this
isn't a platformer because it's too easy? Is that an
argument that means anything to you? Like, I'm happy to
get pushback on that, but it's not.

Speaker 2 (47:38):
I mean, I mean, I think I agree with you,
Like you know, this is something that they, as in
the developers no amunt of Studio, wanted to put out there.
They wanted to make sure that everyone is able to
complete this game and under see the story to its fruition, right,

(47:59):
And there are there are many ways to do that,
and some some developers like Fromsoft, make it make sure
you They do it as difficult as possible for people,
and they don't put any of those like you know,
what is it the bumpers on the side to make
sure you're okay, like sure, and and and in this game. Yeah,
like they they do try to make sure that you're

(48:20):
not hindered by the difficulty because they want that's not
the point of the game. It's the game is not
about about being a difficult game, but more about like
this is the story. This is the kind of uh
journey that Greece goes through, and I want you to
be able to complete it. And and for that, I mean

(48:43):
I tip my hat to them, because that is a
lot of times uh not what people want to do,
like or what developers or or or publishers want, right.
They want they want to make sure that they can
extract as much money from the people that buy these games. Right,
so they want to make sure you can you can

(49:03):
get as much as many hours as you can from
from your from your players, as well as then being
able to hak some sort of garbage DLC after that.
And this game just says, this is my story, this
is what I'm doing, and that's it.

Speaker 1 (49:19):
Sure, Yeah, you've got to meet it where it's at.
It never masqueraded as something more.

Speaker 2 (49:25):
Yeah, And I mean like and to your point also, like,
if you don't like this game, there are a million
other platforming games to play. But if you want something
that's a little different from that, where there is kind
of a an emotional story, you know, give this a shot.
Because it's not it's not a very long game, so

(49:47):
it's not it's not going to take you very long
to figure out. You get to the end of the story.
So even if you are going to complain that the
game is too easy, at least you had an opportunity
to to see what this studio is and what the
story that they're trying to put out there.

Speaker 1 (50:03):
A second common complaint that I saw a lot is
that this game is journalist bait. This this is an
egregious comment to make. This is a broader conversation about
the role of a critic and the role of a work,
which we talked about that on a previous episode on
the show, and I think we're going to do another one.

(50:24):
But of course journalist bait is never clearly defined, so
that burden lies with us. We can assume. I think
this is what folks mean that journalist bait is a
game that is deliberately provocative in its presentation, mechanics, or storytelling,
and uses thematic ideas and subjects that are deemed quote
unquote easy within the current culture that latter point. These

(50:47):
are typically things such as mental health, gender identity, anti fascism,
things that can be derided as being inserted for culture points.
Do you know what I mean? I think that's honestly,
that is the best way I can steal man that
you know, inserting the dei in just for the sake
of the dei. That that kind of argument, that that

(51:08):
generally has an entirely soggy foundation and doesn't hold any
weight with me. But but that's when when folks say
journalist bait, it's things like that. It's it's an anti
intellectualism argument at its core, which drives me off the
fucking wall. Not to mention, not to mention, just throwing
this out there is a convenient way to sidestep engaging

(51:32):
what's actually being presented to you. It's the equivalent of
like the TikTok comments section where they're like glazing or
s y b au or I hope she reads this.

Speaker 2 (51:42):
Bro.

Speaker 1 (51:44):
That whole social media is eroding our ability to think,
I swear.

Speaker 2 (51:50):
Yeah. I mean because you're you're everyone is looking for
even on the YouTube comments or like TikTok comments that
they're looking for the likes, right, And their response is like, oh,
did I say something that that's going to be like
really interesting to people or that that really resonates to
people's Like come on, man, like you everyone's just just

(52:11):
saying things to get the clout, and it is frustrating.

Speaker 1 (52:14):
They want the likes they want the cloud, but they
don't want to engage in learning about what they're talking about,
so they repeat the same little phrasing exactly.

Speaker 2 (52:23):
We're like, what I will say this about the souls
in a community. I feel like there's there was just
a few bad actors that had that whole like get
good bro thing that I from every time that I've
streamed a Soul's game, they the people that have jumped
on have been always like very welcoming and very helping, helpful.

(52:47):
So like it's just like it's unfortunate that like a
few bad actors have to ruin or spoil a community.
And like the same thing with this where it's like
it because it's so easy to do it. It's so like,
you know, just a three words, quick blazing blow or
a quick quick blazing bro and then s why bau

(53:08):
do people say that? Say that? They say that or
do they spell it out?

Speaker 1 (53:10):
I don't know they spell it's it's a self censorship
to say shut your bitch ass up without getting like
censored on the platform. That's self censorship. Is another whole
thing with with the online community.

Speaker 2 (53:23):
Yeah, I mean like I kind of get it because
the comments are are section. It's it's it's not a
place where you can have like this conversation that you
and I are having right now, right you have an
opportunity to just say something real quick, a hot clickbait,
whatever you want to say, and move on, and then
someone will engage with it and then go off the

(53:47):
rails because it's like, oh, what the hell, man, why'd
you say that? And like, you know, maybe they want that,
Maybe they just want that kind of notoriety.

Speaker 1 (53:54):
I don't know, but I think that's that's the insidious
nature of this, right is that we already are at
a we are already crippled insofar as our ability to
meaningfully discuss online because of moderation, because of character limits,
and now we are using these token phrases to avoid
having a meaningful discussion altogether, to just use repeated phrases

(54:17):
like we are playing out of the same fifty two
card deck, and it's eroding any kind of meaningful discussion
that we can have on the internet right now. It's
it drives me insane, as you can probably tell.

Speaker 2 (54:31):
Maybe a little bit, but like and I get it,
and like you know, as the journalists have this opportunity
to take a look at a game like this and
you know, they put their they're able to go over
the you know, one hundred and fifty five character limit
or whatever it is that they have on the comment section.

(54:53):
It is. It can be frustrating, but like, I don't
think that the game was trying to do that. I
feel like this was a very personal story that was
being shared to the rest of the world. And you know,
kind of going back to the whole art discussion, it's like,
you know, they put it out there and let other

(55:17):
people decide what they want to decide how to feel
about it, and that is that's that's a very brave
thing to do. I mean, look, even even what we're
doing right now, we're talking about a game. We're talking
we're putting our opinions out there right now, and and
you do this all the time, like you you you
take this opportunity to go in depth with a lot

(55:37):
of games and put out put out your opinions. And
it's like, not many people do that. And like a
lot of people can can say like you know, they
can they can sit there and make a complaint, but
they're not the ones that are going taking the time
to do the research and put this stuff out there,
so it's like, you know, this is this is their moment,
and for you to for someone to just say that

(55:58):
this is journalistic base is just kind of bullshit and
it just doesn't make sense.

Speaker 1 (56:04):
Yeah, no, I agree, I agree. Just to move us along,
I want to get into the game. One last discussion
point that folks will call this baby's first metaphor quote unquote,
or the themes were way too obvious. Now, I will
fully admit I have been guilty of saying baby's first
metaphor before as a sort of reductive way to write

(56:25):
something off. I fully admit that there is a deleterious
nested assumption or a presupposition whatever within here, and that
is that a works messaging and meaning must be obfuscated
in some way or otherwise not immediately graspable, i e.
Difficult for it to have value. And you know, I

(56:47):
wonder if the folks that say this that this is
baby's first metaphor say the same thing about books like
Animal Farm or nineteen eighty four, A Moby Dick, The Road,
the Great Gatsby, these classics that are very upfront about
what they are trying to say. I have a parenthetical
that says, who am I kidding? These people don't read

(57:07):
but trying, I'm trying not to straw man here. What
I think this is. It's this larger point of It's
a reflection of an insecurity that people will feel, that
they will say this work didn't give me the feelings
of self satisfaction that I wanted about my intellect that
I decided it should give me before I even finished it,

(57:29):
and therefore it fails on my metrics. I just I
don't know what universe an artist being good at delivering
and conveying metaphors and imagery becomes a con I don't
know what world that is, and I don't want to be.

Speaker 2 (57:45):
A part of it.

Speaker 1 (57:45):
And maybe I'm not arguing this particularly well. I think
there is such a thing as being too on the
nose or being too loud about something. I don't think
this even verges close to that. I just I have
a real problem with I think this trend that's largely
been accelerated because of TikTok of folks thinking that only

(58:09):
the most how to phrase this, only the most highbrow intellectual,
using the most amount of theory and et cetera, works
are the ones that are valuable. I just don't think
that that is so it's I know, it's anti intellectual
in some way. I don't have the vocabulary at this

(58:31):
time to spend that argument out, and this is not
the show for that. You know, I'm already talking more
than I should be. I just again, I don't think
that this argument is holds a lot of weight for me.
I think the game says what it's trying to say
succinctly and with enough clarity, and it does so without prescription,

(58:55):
is the thing, and that's why it's it's successful. In fact,
there is a secret scene that you can get that
adds more clarity that I think in some ways makes
the work less effective. I don't know. I again, maybe
I should apologize. I don't know that I argued this
very well at all. I don't think that this is

(59:17):
a meaningful argument against this game.

Speaker 2 (59:20):
No, I agree, Like, I mean, we kind of touched
on it with Death Stranding earlier on, But like I
guess there's a acceptable limit to maybe exposition or whatever,
to be a like or exposition of the theme. I
think the problem also is there's so much content out
there right, whether it's games, music, movies, TV shows, et cetera.

(59:45):
And because we've seen it all and there are so
many there's only so many ways a story could be told,
it gets harder and harder for someone to obfuscate their theme.
And then the fact that that someone's going to just
berate a game like this because oh, they're so obvious,

(01:00:07):
Like yeah, I mean, I think that's the point, Like
they want you to know that this is about the
struggles of someone losing something or someone and like their
journey to get past that, get through it. What's the
problem with that? What's what's the problem with having something
to be quote unquote on the nose in that sense.

(01:00:27):
But like I mean, at the same time, I'll argue
that it is not it isn't a game that is
so much so like like being very ham fisted about
it where there is uh, there's dialogue or you know,
Kojima sitting there telling you.

Speaker 3 (01:00:45):
Yeah, you know, a strand is like a rope, but
like you know, it's not doing that, so like I
can appreciate that, And it's like, you know, that's why
you don't see as many murder mystery movies and stuff
like that anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
Like yeah, of course, with his name. Ryan Johnson does
a fantastic job with what he's doing with subverting the expectation,
which I think a lot of people are looking for
that subversion, and it's like, yeah, you can only do
it so much. I think, until it's just the same thing,
it becomes formulaic.

Speaker 1 (01:01:16):
I think you're walking beside a really really good point, Chris,
in that there are already so many stories and at
this point in history we're sort of burdened by choice.
We have this over consumption epidemic where everything is available
to us all the time. I mean made me think
of that Bo Burnham section of Inside a Wonderful, wonderful special.

(01:01:41):
We are paralyzed by choice. At this point. We have
access to everything in history at the drop of a
hat thanks to the Internet. And yeah, like back before that,
there were plenty of stories in art around, but we
didn't have the levels of consumption where we could just
load it up on YouTube and check it out. Yeah,
and that access is a double edged sword in that. Yeah,

(01:02:02):
it's amazing that we can be exposed to all of this,
but the natural consequence then becomes we get sensory overload
and thus dulled, desensitized because of all of this consumption
and if we're not careful, that can hinder I think
how we are wowed and odd and moved by this

(01:02:24):
kind of thing. I think we have to work consciously
to not be desensitized in some ways.

Speaker 2 (01:02:29):
I don't know, Yeah, I mean, like I feel like
I have this discussion with my kids all the time
because I tell them, like, you're growing up in a
place in a time period where information is literally at
your fingertips. You can find out about anything. But the
problem is right now is that information can be skewed

(01:02:53):
in whatever way that that person is giving that information
to you for with right. So like and I tell them, like,
you always got to make sure you research, like make
sure you have at least three sources of of of
where to like if this, if this, if this is
legit or not, because you can't you can't just find
the one right person that might be able to explain

(01:03:18):
it to you with a wink and a smile and
be like, oh, yeah, this is this is the right way.
Because unfortunately, that's I feel like, that's what what's happened
with society or now right Like, a lot of times
there are people that are just having that find that
one voice that resonates with them, and then they are
they listen to anything and everything that they say. So

(01:03:38):
it's important to make sure you have that have the
opportunity to you have all this information, make sure you
utilize it in the best way possible, because it's it's like,
it's crazy, it's it's just it's just yeah, before I like,
literally I still I still remember the the the commercials
for like in cyclou the Encyclopedia Britannica and stuff like that,

(01:04:03):
sort of getting it in car to CD. Yes, I'm
aging myself here, people, But the point is, like you
had to go out and go to the library and
find that information. Now you don't have to do any
of that. You could literally get all that on your
phone if you really add to you could talk to
something and it would give you all that information. But
is it always the right information? That's where you need

(01:04:24):
to figure that out. You can't just trust the first
thing that you see.

Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
Right, Yeah, there are dangers in this age of information.
But I think you know something that can help ground
us is engaging with works of art, whether it's a
game or a novel, whatever, the encyclopedia, maybe things that
ground us to humanity, something like a shared a shared
cycle that we all go through, like grief and loss

(01:04:52):
is I think it can be difficult to parse and
to talk about and to relive maybe even but I
think it's important.

Speaker 2 (01:05:00):
Yeah, that that connection, Like even having these kind of
discussions is important because then you can have you can
hopefully see other perspectives and and and and live outside
of your bubble a little bit, even for that, even
for that moment, having that discussion.

Speaker 1 (01:05:20):
So yeah, absolutely so we're going to talk about the
gameplay experience, the experience of playing the game through grease. Now,
if you are particularly sensitive to spoilers, again, now is
the time to jump off. I don't think that this
game can be spoiled in the traditional sense, but if
you're going to jump off, now is the time. We're

(01:05:40):
going to talk about the journey from loss to acceptance
through the story of ar titular character Greece. Okay, it's

(01:06:21):
not going to be a beat by beat It's not
really that kind of game. I've got bolded in here,
just some key points to talk about. Otherwise, I think
it's going to be more of a free form discussion.
The game opens with our titular character, Grease. She's singing
only to lose her voice, a part of herself, the
most intimate part of our identity outside of our mind.

(01:06:44):
She loses it. She's standing on this outstretched hand of
some statue and she runs to the statue itself, seeking
comfort or protection or some sense of security. But it
doesn't work. It's in vain, the statue that we can't
fully see yet, it crumbles and Grease falls. This it

(01:07:04):
begins with the loss of the voice, and that's what
this game quote unquote is about. Greece is going on
a journey to rediscover her voice. If you really wanted
to reduce it down, you could say that I really
like the combination of the music choice. As you're falling here,
the following is like perpetual it's seemingly never ending. It's spiraling,
and the music itself is really loud. It's not abrasive

(01:07:27):
and it's not grotesque. It's like a fanfare, but it
is very loud. It's sheets of sound. It borders on oppressive,
but it's it's a jubilant fanfare. It's just it's it's
that sensory, it's near sensory overload, that is immediately followed
by silence that can kind of make you feel dizzy
in the way that you can sort of feel dizzied

(01:07:50):
after a particular loss, you know, that sort of dizziness
that comes with what's the word disassociation. I think it's
I don't know that that was explicitly intended, and I
very well, I'm probably reading too much into this. I
thought it was really effective.

Speaker 2 (01:08:06):
Yeah, I mean the other part of it I was
just thinking about right now is like, could it be
almost in a way like mocking because she lost the
voice and it's like these outside this this music is
just like being like, Okay, well you can't sing, so
I guess I'll sing for you kind of thing, and
and like dealing with that kind of pressure from the

(01:08:27):
outside and crumbling in this sense right watching watching the
statue crumble.

Speaker 1 (01:08:33):
It's so interesting that you that you went to mocking.
You know, a theme of this is going to be
the co creation of interpretation and bringing you know this,
this analysis exists within and with part of us, and
it's interesting that the part of you you brought was
mocking and not supporting. Wow, that says a lot about Chrish.

Speaker 2 (01:08:55):
Yeah, well, you know it is what it is. But
but yeah, like you could, at least that's how I
interpret read it that part there, especially when you were
talking about it. It's like it's being loud, it's blanketing
and like and she's falling. So that's that's where I was, like,
that's where my mind went went to, where it's just like, Okay, well,
this is this is her downfall, this is this is

(01:09:16):
her getting to her rock bottom.

Speaker 1 (01:09:18):
Yeah, in this, in this step, and that's precisely where
we fall to.

Speaker 2 (01:09:22):
We fall to a.

Speaker 1 (01:09:23):
Sea of Greece, a sea of gray, and it's critical here.
Greece will not move until you make the first step. Yeah,
that's something that can sound a little bit crass, but
I think I have been obsessively reading about grief lately,
and what I've learned is that no two people grieve
the same. It's just not there. There is no singular

(01:09:46):
piece of advice that can apply blanketly to everybody, because
everybody is so unique and singular. But one thing that
that I mean has helped me a lot is that
first step to accepting what is going on and and
allowing yourself to make that journey to healing. I think
you have to decide to let yourself do that. Yeah,

(01:10:07):
and you have to do that here. I don't know. Again,
I'm bringing myself and my recent experiences here, but I
think that is of critical note. I think that's really important.

Speaker 2 (01:10:18):
Yeah, I mean, especially as as the graphics and games
have really gotten better, there's that moment, there's a moment
of time where you know, you see a cut scene
in a game and it goes right into the world
like where you're like, oh, oh, I have to start
playing that, like I have to like this this kind
of I feel like it's it's an interesting take on

(01:10:39):
that and you know, really really insightful in the way
that you just described it too, because she did Basically,
she's she's crushed by what yeah, apparently just happened, and
you have to then you as the player, have to
push her forward to the next step in like kind

(01:11:00):
of rebuilding herself.

Speaker 1 (01:11:01):
Yeah, precisely so. And you had said what just happened?
We should be clear, we know that Grease lost her voice.
But again, this whole journey of storytelling is very descriptive.
It's not prescriptive. It's not telling you exactly like this
is what Greece lost. This is we're going through the
stages of grief. It's not that hand holdy it is.

(01:11:26):
It's suggesting a lot of emotions and feelings and paths
through this journey, but it's not prescriptive in a way
that this is like the correct story I will say,
I mean the accepted story, and this is largely colored
by the secret scene at the end. The accepted story

(01:11:47):
is that Greece lost her mother and that that is
what she is mourning through the stages of grief into acceptance.
I think that's fine. Again, I think that secret scene
takes away little bit. Yeah, but we can talk about
that later, I suppose. But you know, I I don't know.
I think that reading is fine. I guess, if not,

(01:12:09):
maybe a touch juvenile partly, I don't love. I don't
know how you feel about this, Chris, Like, do you
feel that the stages of grief the Koobler Ross model,
you know, the denial, depression, acceptance, bargaining, anger. Do you
feel that that's a bit overdone at this point specifically
talking about not grief as a concept, but the five stages.

Speaker 2 (01:12:28):
I mean, are we talking about in terms of all
forms of media or we're talking about video games?

Speaker 1 (01:12:36):
Or all all forms of media, specifically with the Five stages. Hmm,
it's okay if you don't, it's.

Speaker 2 (01:12:44):
Yeah, I don't. I mean, I'll be honest. I tend
to avoid games to talk about grief. Oh that's yeah,
that's fair. It's just it's it's funny because like it is,
obviously it's very prevalent, because there are lots of pieces
of of media that touch on this subject. And I mean,

(01:13:05):
I don't. I can't. I can't. I can't give a
definitive answer on that because I can't say for sure
that I'm like, oh, yeah, there's there's too much of that.
But but to be fair, I tend to avoid that,
so I can't. I'm sure you're a better person. No, well,
maybe say.

Speaker 1 (01:13:20):
That I am, because longtime listeners know I seek out
games that make me feel bad.

Speaker 2 (01:13:27):
Okay, that's like, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:13:29):
I when I discovered Disco Lesum, I was like, this
is it, this is it. I'm all about it. I
love sad games and stories. But yeah, I don't know.
The Coopler Ross model of grief the Five Stages was
again my understanding, I'm not an expert, but my understanding
is that it was controversial when it came out. Now

(01:13:52):
it's looked at as like maybe colloquially helpful, but no,
my understanding is that no scholar takes it seriously as
a prescriptive thing. Not everybody experiences all five stages, and
not everybody experiences them in that same order that they
laid them out in. I'll be a little bit vulnerable

(01:14:12):
here and say that I tend to accept loss, accept
you know, move to the acceptance stage fairly easily, Which
is not to say that I bypass everything else, because
that's the quote unquote last stage. And it's certainly not
to suggest that the feelings are not stingingly present, because

(01:14:33):
they are. It's just that when it comes to the
reality of accepting what has happened, I find that I
can get there fairly easily, for better or for worse,
you know. So it's the five the five stages things
that it's just so strange to me because it's I
don't know, I don't know what I'm trying to say.

Speaker 2 (01:14:54):
I mean, I think I think the five stages are
are are just a way for for lack of a
better term, it the simple minded to understand it or.

Speaker 1 (01:15:04):
Or if we want to be polite about it. If
we want to be nice about it. It's a it's
a convenient shorthand. It's a shorthand that is accepted by society.

Speaker 2 (01:15:13):
There you go, that sounded much better what I said.

Speaker 1 (01:15:16):
Yeah, I deal with customers all week. I I know
how to how to politen things up. Yeah, you know,
it's a shorthand. It's an accepted shorthand that most everyone
can relate to, and there's value in that. There are
some readings out there that really focus on this. You know,
the anger stage is the color red and the winds
get angry, and the depression stage you go down into

(01:15:40):
the depths of the ocean, and it's like, that's that's
the kind of analysis I'm not part. That doesn't move
me very much because it's it just feels like, you know,
why talk about it? It's so obvious. But at the
same time, you know, uh, to refute myself a little bit.
Everybody has to start somewhere. This is going to be
somebody's first exposure to grief based media, and they don't

(01:16:02):
have what I bring here to my interpretation. They don't
their co creation doesn't have that knowledge. So it would
be unfair to say that they should automatically be where
we're at. Do you know what I'm trying to say,
this is somebody's first grief media, they're going to maybe
need to be guided a bit more.

Speaker 2 (01:16:23):
Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, I mean, does this is kind
of go back to the maybe it's first metaphor kind
of thing. But like in a way, that's that's okay too,
because grief, like you said, is interpreted and handled by
everyone in a different way, and that's okay, Like you want,

(01:16:43):
this is just the way that Nomada wanted to interpret
it or how they wanted to deal with it in
there in this game, And I think that's that's okay.
They made that decision, and we as people that are
able to play this game and and give our thoughts,
have to take what they accept what they've given us,

(01:17:05):
and then you know, we do with it what we
what we want. I think it's it's just does service
purpose and I think it does a good job of
portraying what they wanted to do this in the short
amount of times.

Speaker 1 (01:17:22):
And it very well could be the case that that
is their individual journey through the grieving process. They might
experience all these stages and who am I to say, no,
that's wrong, I know nobody, and where do I get off?
Moving forward just a little bit, you're going to progress
forward through this initial stage. You start collecting those stars
that you had mentioned. Chris, more on that in a second.

(01:17:44):
You come upon these ruins that are modeled after the
hands of the statue you saw in the beginning. Every
time you arrive at these ruins, two things occur. Three
things occur. Four things occur. No, three things occur. One
you see more of the statue. Two you begin to cry.
You allow yourself to express your grief. And three this expression,

(01:18:08):
this allowance of yourself to feel, brings some color back
into the world. This first section brings back the color red,
immediately seeping in as a new water color in a
in just a gorgeous way. It's it's introduced. We hear
Cello's for the first time in a little sort of
like mini cello choir. It's it's just beautiful. As this

(01:18:30):
red seeps in color begins to seep back into Greece's life,
the first steps toward healing.

Speaker 2 (01:18:36):
Yeah, and you said, it's just it's just an It's
a nice moment to see that shift in in her character.
Like where you're like, Okay, something's happening. I'm I'm ready
to go to that next step, the next quote unquote level. Yeah,
this game just really does know when to pick its

(01:18:58):
moments when to like yeah, it's ah man, Like it's
just crazy. It just does such a good job with
all that stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:19:04):
You had mentioned the stars, do you like what what
are your reads on the stars and how the stars work?
Like why did why do you think they chose stars?
Like what's the point? I don't think there's a wrong answer.
I'm just curious.

Speaker 2 (01:19:15):
Yeah, I mean I think for me, it was more
about when you think about stars in just the I
don't know, pop culture or whatever standpoint, it's always something
that you look up to, right, something that you're it
brings hope because they always say shoot for the stars
and hopefully you land in the moon or whatever nonsense

(01:19:38):
phrases that you use.

Speaker 1 (01:19:39):
But no, I don't like I think that's right on
the money, Like there's you know, we use the stars
as a symbol of hope, right, look to the stars,
shoot for the stars, shoot for the moon, even if
you miss your land among the stars, you know, right,
and oh yeah, in every classroom in every classroom across
America or at least you know, in the in the
before times, and I I think that's part of it.

(01:20:01):
You know, the stars have always been a sort of
symbol of hope. You know, think back and this is
just me in my recent reading about like Greek mythology,
think about how the Greeks viewed the stars. They represented
the constant and heavenly reminders of the old tales of
the didactic and cautionary tales of Greek mythological characters, families

(01:20:22):
of myth and how they loved and lost. You know,
they also gave explanations to how the world worked, you know,
like Uranus and Guya's marriage for the heavens and Earth,
Persephone's abduction into the underworld bringing upon springtime that it
made sense of their reality. And Greece too is making
sense of her reality with the help of the stars,
both on her journey through acceptance, using them as a

(01:20:44):
point of hope. Is I mean, you know, we are
Sagan said it, we are made of stars stuff, right.
I think I don't think that the stars and astronomy
is like the symbol to lock onto in Greece. But
as we said, this is co creation. Part of what
I'm bringing to this is my interest in this, and
I see humanity in astronomy and the stars, and I

(01:21:06):
think that's I think Greece using them as a pinpoint
of hope and as a tool for healing and literally
ascension towards the end of the game. Yea, you know,
I don't think it means nothing.

Speaker 2 (01:21:19):
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, Like I mean, I think, like
you said, like at the end of the game, you
are climbing those stars to move move on and to
get past this with a different perspective, I would say,
because even even climbing those stars is not like a
straight and narrow path, right it is. There are just

(01:21:42):
kind of angles and like curves and stuff like that
that you have to progress to get to where you
need to get to. And yeah, it's just it's just
a nice way to end it. And like and full disclosure, obviously,
since we're talking about the spoiler stuff, I did not
get the the secret ending. I didn't do all the collectibles,
so I was under the impression I did go back

(01:22:06):
and look at the secret ending or extra thing. So
I had a totally different interpretation of the game. And like,
to your point, it does once when you go find
that other part of it, I was like, oh, okay,
so it's about the loss of her mother or whatever
and like and I was like, oh, that's not what
I thought at all when playing through the game. So

(01:22:28):
it was interesting to see that.

Speaker 1 (01:22:29):
Well, I think you bring up a good point is
that you're read changed once you learned that, And that
is why I think that secret scene in some ways
detracts from the effectiveness something. And it's fine to talk
about this here. We're not necessarily going beat by beat
in order. You know, you get to if you get
to the end without the secret scene. This game is

(01:22:50):
not prescriptive in a way that it makes you think,
oh yeah, it's the loss of a family member or
even the loss of a human. It is the journey
from feeling low to acceptance and healing that can be.
You know, Grease lost her voice before I played through
the game. Something that I thought of was an injury

(01:23:12):
that I had with music that kind of prevents me
to this day from being able to play. I lost
a part of myself in that way. That is a
sense of loss getting to the end. You know, the
statue imagery is always there. There's always a statue of
a grown woman with Greece. There are multiple ways to
look at that. Perhaps Greece herself has passed away and

(01:23:36):
she's seeing what could have been. She's mourning the self
that she never got to be. There's also the added
I mean, the statues are very clearly female. Perhaps this
is a loss of femininity. You know, when we think
of femininity, we think, or at least one of the
first things I think of, is fertility. That could very
well be an angle of this that I quite honestly,

(01:23:58):
I don't particularly want to argue, being you know, a
man that also hasn't really thought about this a ton.
It's not my place to make that argument, but that
is a reading that I could get behind if somebody wanted.

Speaker 2 (01:24:09):
To make it. It's your interpretation of it, whether it's
right or wrong. It's just what you felt when you
made that d that.

Speaker 1 (01:24:19):
It's your co creation. And that's not to say that
it's automatically good and valid. You still have to pack
it up. But you know, but the point is this,
this game is largely about you know, loss and grief
and depression too. There's there's a whole darkness monster we're
going to talk about that I think represents what David
Foster Wallace take a shot. I mentioned David Foster Wallace

(01:24:41):
what what he called it in infinite jest, But it's
it's just that sort of messy human experience of grieving,
and it can be about anything. The secret scene explicitly
shows Greece with her mother, and to be fair in
the dev's defense, you there, there's no way you're going
to stumble upon this secret scene. You basically have to

(01:25:04):
use a guide to get it. I mean, you have
to do so many specific things. I just I think
it would be extraordinarily unlikely that anybody would stumble upon it.
So in that way, sure, like that's fine. If you're
going to put that piece of you inside of the game,
that's fine. I do think adding that extra little step though,
of saying this is what it's actually about for me personally,

(01:25:24):
made it a little less effective. I liked it whenever
it was more abstract about you know, here's what we're showing,
bring yourself to it. Does this resonate with you when
you lost a pet or you know, when you lost
a family member, or whenever you lost a part of yourself?
You know, like maybe I don't know your ability to

(01:25:45):
do something a limb anything.

Speaker 2 (01:25:48):
Yeah, I mean I appreciated that they kind of tucked
it away as much as possible so you can have
that interpretation of what this game really is about. But
you know, I'm sure you and I both know people
that love two hundred games. So if there are people

(01:26:08):
out there that want to do that, you know it's
there too. And and just really see the story. But yeah,
I agree, Like it's just it is. It is important.
I feel like the way that they crafted this game
and this story that everyone has a moment too be

(01:26:29):
grease right, like to feel what she feels, and like that, like,
like you said, the point of of her having this
moment where they reveal the where they add extra context
to it, does cheapen the game, but like the fact
that you can have that moment without that is I think. Great.

Speaker 1 (01:26:49):
Well, I don't want to nitpick you. I I don't
know that cheapen is maybe the right word that I
would I would use, even though I don't even though
I don't like it personally, man, I don't know that
I would say it cheapens it so much as it
maybe puts it into much of a spotlight. Maybe I'm

(01:27:13):
not sure. Perhaps perhaps cheapen is a fine word.

Speaker 2 (01:27:16):
Like it's just I mean, like again, it just it
was just very much more on the nose about sure
what the story is about. I don't mean to say
it in a derogatory way. I just mean to say,
like it is. It's just like it is one of
those sections or moments where you're like, Okay, well this

(01:27:36):
is how it is, and like this is a story,
like this is the definitive answer to that question.

Speaker 1 (01:27:43):
How about this? It it guides conversations and by virtue
of that closes off conversations. It could have otherwise been yes,
that's fair. It's now about the loss of somebody. It's
now no longer the loss of your self, fertility, you know,
a part of your identity, you know it. It guides

(01:28:04):
you into a path, you know, and for hey, for
some people that might be what they need and what
they want.

Speaker 2 (01:28:09):
So who are we? I mean, like, like, you know,
what's one like example of other media, like apparently the
end of Sopranos, Like, oh, buddy, to talk about it?

Speaker 1 (01:28:20):
Oh man, you're talking to the right guy. Did you
know that? I'm like a super fan of that show.

Speaker 2 (01:28:24):
I think I think during our recording you mentioned it,
So that's why. Oh that's right, I did, uh, and
so yeah, like, I mean that left a lot of
things open to interpretation, but like a lot of people
wanted that definitive ending like what happened, and it was
frustrating for them for that. So, like, I don't know,
it depends on who you're talking to, who your audience is,

(01:28:45):
but yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:28:46):
Yeah, that's an excellent example. That's that's an excellent example
where keeping things unexplained I think elevates that ending to masterpiece.
I think it's a beautiful ending, fantastic.

Speaker 2 (01:28:56):
Yeah. Well, I'm not gonna.

Speaker 1 (01:28:57):
Say I was gonna.

Speaker 2 (01:28:58):
I was gonna freaking dexter.

Speaker 1 (01:29:00):
I was gonna say what I think happens, but then
I was like, you know, I don't want to spoil
somebody if they haven't seen that shit.

Speaker 2 (01:29:06):
I mean, the the show has been out for been
dead and gone for you know years at this point, Oh,
get at like twenty years.

Speaker 1 (01:29:13):
Get out of town that get out of town. I
don't like that argument.

Speaker 2 (01:29:16):
Come on, No, no, okay, okay, fine, fine, fine.

Speaker 1 (01:29:20):
I'm kidding. I'm not ay.

Speaker 2 (01:29:22):
You don't have to you don't even have to spoil
it for the people that.

Speaker 1 (01:29:25):
I mean, Look, I haven't watched if I know, we're
friends here. Besides, David Chase, the director, has like accidentally
come out and said what happens? And he got mad
about it. He was like, you know, sure, Okay, maybe
that's what I think happens, But so what, who cares
what I think? What do you think? That's that's the point.
What I think doesn't matter. Yeah, exactly, I agree.

Speaker 2 (01:29:47):
And again, like that's a perfect example of like him
putting something out there and people taking it and putting
their own spin and taking and us co creating what
happens at the end. So what if he's what happens?
So what if he said he's he says exactly exactly
what we're talking about, Like, who cares? Death of you
said one thing? But if you want to, if you
want to have your own interpretation of what happened, that's

(01:30:09):
cool too.

Speaker 1 (01:30:36):
I want to talk about a prominent character in Greece here,
the only other character that's not you or your mother
slashed the statue. Uh. What I have variously at different
times referred to in this as the black Mass, the
black Monster, the shadow. Uh. We're introduced to it as
a sort of facsimile of ourselves, us as a literal shadow,

(01:30:59):
and it eventually rose into this amorphous blob that can
be an eel, a crow, and towards the end a
reflection of you, yourself. And I'm curious to hear what
your take on this is.

Speaker 2 (01:31:14):
I mean, for me, it was just more about that that.
I don't know if it's like self doubt, but it's
more like what wants to keep Greece down in the
depths and stay sure depressed and stay stay in this
like area where she can she can really spiral down

(01:31:36):
in in her emotions, in her feelings, and not, you know,
continue to live. That's my interpretation. I don't know what
you thought about it, but.

Speaker 1 (01:31:45):
No, I think that's totally valid. It's it's that self doubt,
that fear born of desperation, it's grief, it's depression itself.
It's that part of you that is afraid to move on,
that that inability to heal because you're afraid of the unknown,
You're afraid of what acceptance truly means. This is a

(01:32:07):
manifestation of that at various times will attack you. It
tries to hinder your progress, which by the way, like
that's something to mention. This game isn't linear in terms
of like top to bottom. You are constantly ebbing and flowing,
like rising and then falling even lower than you were before,
much like standard grief cycles, I think, if there even
is such a thing, But this, this black mass, this

(01:32:29):
shadow of you, is perpetually trying to fight you away.
And what I love about this, you know, I look
at this as sort of representing, you know, grief and depression.
David Foster Wallace what I mentioned Infinite Jess before refers
to depression as nausea of the cells and the soul,

(01:32:50):
which I think is just a beautiful description of what
this feels like. But what I love about this is,
at no point do you defeat this thing in At
the end, it kind of coexists with you, swallows you up,
and you realize that you live with this thing now.
And that is maybe the most profound thing that Greece

(01:33:12):
has to say, I think, is that no matter how
far along you get in the healing process, that grief,
that depression, those feelings of inadequacy and fear and anguish,
you don't defeat them. They are a part of who
you are, and you need to accept them, to live

(01:33:33):
with them, to grow. I think you know, media, and
I'm gonna be honest, I don't have anything in mind
that I'm thinking of, but you know, I feel like
there's a tendency with like more juvenile writers to frame
this as a hero story where you vanquish the dragon
of depression, you know, with a mighty sword, and then
you live happily ever after, maybe you even get the girl. Yeah,

(01:33:55):
but that's not reality. That's harmful to think that you
can just conquer this stuff a part of who you are,
and you need to be able to look at yourself
in the mirror and say, I can't run from me.
I cannot vanquish that which I am. This is a
part of me, and I can live with it, but
I cannot expel it. I don't know if that's rings

(01:34:17):
true to you, man, but that you know, I've lost
family members in the past, I've lost friends, I've lost
a lot, and that grieving never goes away. It's always there,
and sometimes it hits right up against you perfectly such
that you get sad about it all over again. But
it gets easier to manage and live with with time.

Speaker 2 (01:34:36):
Yeah, I mean another as you're explaining that, it was like,
oh wow, like because now my life is about because
of my kids, like Pixar movies, watching Inside Out like
that was I feel like one of the one of
the themes of that movie were beautiful all about yeah,
where it was again all about like the joy and

(01:34:58):
stuff like that, and then sadness creeps in and Joy
does her best. I'm spoiling this movie, I'm sorry, but
but like Joy does her best to keep the character
and I don't even remember her name from from dealing
with sadness, but like to your point, she like sadness
is part of a part of who she is and

(01:35:20):
and a part part of growth, right, Like part of
growth as a human being is as a as a
person is to deal with all the emotions and knowing
that I am not just happy all the time. I'm
not sad all the time. I am I am me,
I am who And this is all part of it,
and it's just yeah, it is this. This does it

(01:35:43):
in such a different way, like a different way. There's
obviously not many jokes and stuff like that here, but
it is. But I feel like they both kind of
run parallel to this kind of this theme and and
what they're trying to get across here.

Speaker 1 (01:36:00):
Not just accepting to live with them, but accepting that
that's that that expelling them is not the point. You
can't you can't do it. You know, it's said, you
know some people say you you True love is loving
somebody in spite of their faults. You know, it's looking
at that and saying I love you regardless. You know,
that is part of who you are. I accept that,

(01:36:21):
you know, I don't. I don't like when people try
to change for others. You know, well, okay, to an extent,
I don't want to. That's a whole different conversation. That's you.
You all know what I mean, right, I hope, But yeah,
that's I think that's a really brilliant touch that you
don't defeat this thing. And you know, at the end,

(01:36:42):
in case you maybe weren't catching on to what this
black monster represents, at the end, it does turn into you,
like a giant version of your face before knocking you
down one last time. It explicitly shows you like this
is you. I am you, and I am a part
of you. I will forever be a part of you.

(01:37:02):
But what does Greece do Grease heals regardless, she gets
her voice back and continues to sing and reunites with
you know, the statue, which we can say, you know,
the memory of her mother, the acceptance of the life
that she lost, if we're taking that interpretation the you know, however,
you would like to spin your own analysis of this.

(01:37:25):
Greece heals despite now living with this thing that represents
some of the worst times of her life.

Speaker 2 (01:37:33):
Yeah, I think it just wraps up in a very
beautiful way that you do want that kind of growth
as a person, not just for the character but for
yourself and like not kind of think that everything's going
to be all right, but like even when the going

(01:37:53):
gets tough, you just got to You've got to understand
that you have to process those things in a as
healthy way as possible. But yeah, you have to go
through it. The uh.

Speaker 1 (01:38:07):
I know, we kind of skipped over a lot and
there might be some listeners that are upset about that.
You know, this this episode was this episode was never
about beat by beat. It was about the conversations that
come out of that, which is really what I'm how
I'm trying to move the show forward to be less
about you know, summarizing the game and more about creating
a discussion around it. You know, that's the co creation, right,

(01:38:29):
But on one part of the game that we miss
missed over is as you were bringing more color into
the world, you're meeting the statue, You're seeing more of
the statue each time, you're letting new colors come in.
At the final time, when you get the final color
and you get your voice back, the statue opens its
eyes for the first time, and it's this really beautiful moment. Well, actually,

(01:38:51):
at first Grease tries to sing and she fails. She's
still maybe holding on to that fear of of allowing
herself to heal, that fear of the unknown that comes
with healing. But it's such a beautiful moment of when
the statue looks at you and the music is swelling,

(01:39:11):
and it's the first time that you think you know
things are gonna be okay. And of course there's still
a mountain to climb at the end, but it's just
such a beautiful, beautiful moment of hope.

Speaker 2 (01:39:23):
Yeah, I agree, Like you know, I feel like from
what I've understood from other very prominent writers and from
like screenwriting and like storytelling, you have to make your
characters suffer, and I feel like they did a good

(01:39:43):
job of making Greece suffer throughout this and to then finally,
even at that moment where, like you said, you can't
really sing and then you finally do, it's cathartic in
a way, like, oh, finally, like she has that respite,
that moment of like there is hope from all this,
all this pain and all this grief. And yeah, I

(01:40:08):
totally agree with you. It was a beautiful moment to
just kind of like see her kind of persevere through everything.

Speaker 1 (01:40:15):
Made all the more intimate too, since it's her voice, right,
you know, it wouldn't have the same gravitas and weight
if you know, Greece forgot how to play the violin
and now she can play it again. You know, that
might resonate with some people, but the voice is such
an intimate thing that we all have. It's such a
a unique and personal part of who we are. It's
it's our identity really, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:40:38):
Yeah, absolutely, And and like you you kind of touched
on earlier, especially with singing, like singing is you know,
it can be a very daunting thing, right, Not everyone
will will sing, and especially in front of other people.
It's it's usually like in the car or in the
shower where you kind of like be yourself and then

(01:41:00):
to be able to express that with someone else is
a very personal thing that is being shared. Right.

Speaker 1 (01:41:08):
So yeah, Yeah, if anybody tells you that singing isn't personal,
it's not intimate, ask them to sing in front of
their coworkers. They'll change their tune real quick.

Speaker 2 (01:41:18):
I mean, some people have it and some people don't.
That's okay.

Speaker 1 (01:41:21):
That is largely grease. This is the journey to the end.
The puzzles are a big part of this. You had
mentioned that some of the puzzles towards the end tripped
you up a little bit. I really like the puzzles
towards the end, specifically the water levels where you're kind
of playing with gravity going like through like from the
air through the water down below the water sort of

(01:41:42):
actually I mean back to Celeste, sort of like you
do in Celeste. Yea, I really really liked some of
these puzzles. There were a couple dealing with the lights
at the very end that took me like a second,
like I wasn't quite sure what to do. And then
they do add the singing mechanic to make platforms bloom
and flowers bloom a little late, yeah, and I could

(01:42:05):
see how that might trip folks up. Which which part
of that was stumping you a little bit?

Speaker 2 (01:42:10):
I think it was. Yeah, it was near the end
where it was, like I guess the culmination of everything,
which I usually appreciate in a game where you get
a mechanic, you're introduced to it, and then you get
tested and then the next time you get a new
mechanic and you get tested with that plus the original mechanic,

(01:42:31):
and like how I like, I generally do like that.
It's just like I don't know why. Near the end,
I was just like, Okay, what do I need to do,
especially like I guess, getting like the timing of like
kind of the platforming, especially with the gravity stuff that
kind of tripped me up. And but like I did,
I did love. I felt like when you do figure

(01:42:54):
out a puzzle in this game, there is that aha
moment where you feel like you've accomplished something, if that
makes sense.

Speaker 1 (01:43:02):
And it seems to me that you know the game.
It just knew when you had those and the soundtrack
would always punctuate right with a new instrument coming in
just whenever you in your own brain said oh yeah,
I know now.

Speaker 2 (01:43:16):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's just crazy how they were able
to design that in that way. Yeah, very cool, very
cool stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:43:24):
Yeah, it's a really special game. I and you had
mentioned a couple of times that it's very short. I
cleared this in like three and a half hours.

Speaker 2 (01:43:32):
I think, yeah, I think it's probably about it's seem.

Speaker 1 (01:43:36):
I was refreshing my memory using a let's play, like
a one hundred percent somebody did everything let's play, and
it was still under two and a half hours. So
it's wow. It's definitely a game that doesn't take too
much of your time, but it has a lot to say,
you know, per capita it if we're measuring it that
horrid way, it says a lot in its short run time.

(01:43:59):
And I don't know, I don't know about you. I
give this a hearty recommendation. I think this is worth
your time.

Speaker 2 (01:44:05):
Yeah, I would definitely agree to that, because again, we're
not telling you to invest a lot of time into
this game. There really isn't. And I think like on
Steam it's like relatively cheap compared to a lot of
games out there, and you know, it's I think if
you're looking for a game that pulls on your emotions

(01:44:28):
a bit, this is definitely one of those games. I
think that you know, every once in a while, you
do need a game that makes you feel bad a
little bit. I think that's what I've learned as well,
because I've always like, for me, gaming is always a
place for me to escape, for me to to not

(01:44:50):
deal with reality as sure it is right now and
put a smile on my face. And this doesn't put
a smile on your face in that way, or rather,
it does put a smile on face in one way,
but it doesn't because it does make you kind of
reflect on kind of the emotions that you may have

(01:45:14):
to face when dealing with these kind of you know,
emotional pitfalls.

Speaker 1 (01:45:21):
I guess, yeah, yeah, it's it's not going to make
you smile a minute, but it's nourish. It's nourishing. And
even if you are so so lucky to have never
lost somebody or have gone through this grief process, you
can still extrapolate from that. You know what it means
and how it looks to proceed through healing. So whenever

(01:45:44):
you do look at this disastrous state, of affairs that
we're in in the world. You can see that healing
is not a linear path, and the first step is
allowing yourself to go through through the trenches of feeling,
that nausea of the cells and the soul, that that

(01:46:05):
soul sucking, sadness and grief. But that is that is
a key and component part of making it through to
ultimate healing and acceptance. And yeah, you might have to,
you know, extrapolate it a bit further if we're talking
about current political events. I understand this, but there is
something in here that can teach you about what it

(01:46:26):
means to go through the human condition. And that's as
valuable as you can be. If that's journalism bait. If
that's journalist bait, then you know whatever, I guess you know,
I guess I should just play Blackmith Wukong in Call
of Duty all day. But what do I know. I
it's good, man. It teaches you about life. It's good.

Speaker 2 (01:46:49):
I think you had it. You hit it on the
head like it is. It's it's a game that allows
you to process maybe some feelings about loss, and maybe
not in the same way that you do, but at
least you understand. This is how this person did, and
maybe that allows you to reflect on your h the
way that you process things, and be like, oh wow,

(01:47:10):
did I actually understand, Like is this how I should
be processing things? I don't know. I'm I'm just talking
out of my ass here, but like, no, that's that's
what I'm sorry to say.

Speaker 1 (01:47:20):
No, I know what you mean. You're right on the money. Absolutely,
thank you for joining me. Man, this this was a
lot of fun. I'm glad that you agreed to come
on the show for the first time.

Speaker 2 (01:47:29):
Yeah. No, I mean when when I saw you looking
for guests, I was like, look, I gotta get on
Rick's show. I might make a fool of myself, but
you know what, I gotta, I gotta do it. And
I'm so glad we got an opportunity to do this,
and I'm glad we were able to get you on
our show and talk about oblivion. So that was fun too.

Speaker 1 (01:47:48):
No. I look, I I don't think that you made
a fool of yourself, but I do think that going
through uncomfortable situations as part of change and growth, And
if that is how you view this, then you know,
I'm glad I could be a part of it. I
don't think that anybody is going to tell you that
you embarrassed yourself. So please calm yourself with the steal

(01:48:10):
yourself of those worries.

Speaker 2 (01:48:13):
Please put those in the comments. Please.

Speaker 1 (01:48:15):
Oh yeah, yeah, if you wanna, you want to make
Chris feel bad, join the discord. Uh, don't, don't do that.
Do join the discord. Don't make Chris feel bad.

Speaker 2 (01:48:23):
Chris.

Speaker 1 (01:48:23):
I appreciate you for joining me. As you alluded to,
I have been on your show, which necessitates the existence
of your show. You have one. It's called one Hour
one Decision. I keep adding one direction in the title
by mistake. I don't know why I keep doing that.
I'm regressing in my years.

Speaker 2 (01:48:42):
I guess you could say that there is directions there.

Speaker 1 (01:48:44):
But yeah, I guess you could say. We're the boy
band of podcasts.

Speaker 2 (01:48:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:48:49):
So you you are one half of the duo with
with your co host Tom one Hour one Decision. And
for folks that don't know about your show, I would
love for you to tell them about it and if
you can recommend a good first episode for him.

Speaker 2 (01:49:04):
Again, thank you so much for having me on the show.
One Hour one Decision is a podcast that Tom and
I have been doing for oh man, I think this
might be the fourth here. But we've been doing it
now for quite some time. And what we do is
we play a random game on Xbox Game Pass for
an hour and decide if it's worth playing past that

(01:49:27):
hour or not. We are at I think over two
hundred and thirty episodes at this point of random mostly
random games. I will I will put a caveat there
because sometimes games are picked by guests that come on
the show, or you know, if we if we ever
do polls and stuff like that, that happens too so

(01:49:48):
or I mean, you know, Tom and I have have
also grabbed the wheel, so to speak, and randomly and
pick games that we definitely wanted to try. So there's that.
But yeah, we've we we've been doing this for a while.
Or podcasts, we're on Spotify and all that stuff. Will
I will send you the link tree, so you know,
if you want to check out any of our stuff, please.

Speaker 1 (01:50:10):
Do One Hour, One Decision. That is a podcast with
a hook. You can find that in the episode description.
You'll find their link tree and links to all of
their stuff where you can check them out on the web.
In the episode description, you can also find links to
Pixel Project radio stuff around the web. You can join
the free discord Server if you're so inclined, it's a
fun place to hang out. You can check out the

(01:50:30):
Patreon if you're even more inclined, you can also check
out our Blue Sky Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube presence. You
can follow us at all of those places, some more
active than others, but all of them are up and running.
And of course, if you're so inclined as well, I
should stop saying that phrase. If you would like, you
can rate and review on whatever podcast app you like

(01:50:53):
to use, Spotify, podcast Addict, whatever, whatever. It's all appreciated though.
It helps get us into al Gore's rhythm and it
gets us discovered by new folks. So listeners, thank you
for sticking around to the end. I hope this was
enriching and I hope to continue this. I know I
say this every time. This podcast isn't a period. It's
a semi colon or a comma. If anything, I want

(01:51:15):
to invite new conversation into the discord Server or on
Blue Sky. By all means, let's start a dialogue about this.
So thank you for sticking around. Chris, thank you for
coming on and talking about Greece with me. It was
a real, real pleasure and I hope folks check out
your show again. Find that in the episode description. And
with that, we are about done. We are closing the

(01:51:38):
journey on Greece. My name is Rick, I am your host,
and we're signing off for now. We'll catch you next time.

Speaker 2 (01:51:44):
Take care,

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Interpretation is Co-Creation | Gris (Ep. 145)

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Interpretation is Co-Creation | Gris (Ep. 145)