August 27, 2024 • 44 mins
Investigative journalist and podcast host T. J. Raphael discusses the importance of investigative reporting, the power of audio storytelling, and the ongoing challenges and opportunities faced by content creators in the digital age.
Podcasters Row talks with journalist T.J. Raphael to discuss the current state of journalism, the evolution of podcasting, and the impact of AI on the industry.
The conversation began by exploring the challenges faced by traditional journalism in today's digital age. Raphael shared his passion for investigative journalism and highlighted the pivotal role of audio storytelling. They noted the significant changes in the radio industry and praised NPR for its early adoption of podcasting. Both agreed that investigative journalism persists, but it often receives less promotion than in the past, with AI-generated content potentially emerging as a tool to support investigative reporting.
Raphael also offered a glimpse into his upcoming podcast, set to launch in early 2025, which will delve into a baby-selling operation. He shared his experience with his previous podcast and the positive feedback it received for its engaging storytelling.
The conversation then shifted to the evolution and success of podcasting. Raphael stressed the power of audio storytelling and acknowledged the influence of public radio in perfecting this art form. They also explored the challenges and opportunities of working with established corporations in the podcasting space. Raphael offered insights into his experiences pitching ideas to these organizations.
They also discussed the importance of storytelling in pitching content to publishers, regardless of the medium. Raphael shared his approach to pitching podcasts, which includes developing detailed episode outlines and preparing supplementary research materials.
The discussion then turned to the future of podcasting, with concerns raised about the increasing investment from major platforms like Spotify and Apple Podcasts. The host expressed worry that these platforms might use AI and automation to reduce costs and create content, potentially impacting the quality and authenticity of podcasts. Raphael countered by emphasizing the irreplaceable value of human connection in podcasting.
The conversation concluded with an exploration of the role of AI and unionization in the podcasting industry. While Raphael acknowledged the potential for AI to become more prevalent, he believed it was unlikely to replace human hosts. They also discussed the recent unionization efforts in the audio industry, which could provide safeguards against the potential misuse of AI in podcasting.
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Podcasters Row talks with journalist T.J. Raphael to discuss the current state of journalism, the evolution of podcasting, and the impact of AI on the industry.
The conversation began by exploring the challenges faced by traditional journalism in today's digital age. Raphael shared his passion for investigative journalism and highlighted the pivotal role of audio storytelling. They noted the significant changes in the radio industry and praised NPR for its early adoption of podcasting. Both agreed that investigative journalism persists, but it often receives less promotion than in the past, with AI-generated content potentially emerging as a tool to support investigative reporting.
Raphael also offered a glimpse into his upcoming podcast, set to launch in early 2025, which will delve into a baby-selling operation. He shared his experience with his previous podcast and the positive feedback it received for its engaging storytelling.
The conversation then shifted to the evolution and success of podcasting. Raphael stressed the power of audio storytelling and acknowledged the influence of public radio in perfecting this art form. They also explored the challenges and opportunities of working with established corporations in the podcasting space. Raphael offered insights into his experiences pitching ideas to these organizations.
They also discussed the importance of storytelling in pitching content to publishers, regardless of the medium. Raphael shared his approach to pitching podcasts, which includes developing detailed episode outlines and preparing supplementary research materials.
The discussion then turned to the future of podcasting, with concerns raised about the increasing investment from major platforms like Spotify and Apple Podcasts. The host expressed worry that these platforms might use AI and automation to reduce costs and create content, potentially impacting the quality and authenticity of podcasts. Raphael countered by emphasizing the irreplaceable value of human connection in podcasting.
The conversation concluded with an exploration of the role of AI and unionization in the podcasting industry. While Raphael acknowledged the potential for AI to become more prevalent, he believed it was unlikely to replace human hosts. They also discussed the recent unionization efforts in the audio industry, which could provide safeguards against the potential misuse of AI in podcasting.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/podcasters-row-hosted-by-kingofpodcasts--5922450/support.
Contact KOP for professional podcast production, imaging, and web design services at http://www.kingofpodcasts.com
Support KOP by subscribing to his YouTube channel and search for King Of Podcasts
Follow KOP on X and TikTok @kingofpodcasts (F Meta!)
Listen to KOP’s other programs, Podcasters Row… and the Wrestling is Real Wrestling Podcast and The Broadcasters Podcast.
Buy KOP a Coffee https://buymeacoffee.com/kingofpodcasts
Drop KOP a PayPal https://www.paypal.com/donate?hosted_button_id=3TAB983ZQPNVL
Drop KOP a Venmo https://account.venmo.com/u/kingofpodcasts
Drop KOP a CashApp https://cash.app/$kingofallpodcasts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome on and also another podcaster's row. King of Podcasts
dot com is a website where you find all my
past interviews and of course this series is available through
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google, through YouTube and YouTube Music, and
Amazon Music, I Heart Radio, among other places. But my
next guest, you know, has some warrrible they's going to
(00:32):
bring up in terms of the area of coming from
the area of journalism into investigator journalism into creating content
that works and compliments great with podcasting and also has
worked where I have worked at a lot of the
grassroots podcasting outlets for since two thousand and five, my
guest has gotten to work with some really great mainstream
(00:52):
large outlets that we're gonna go and talk about here
on the program today. So she is an accomplished audio
journalist for order, producer and host with over fifteen years
experience in the media industry, celebrated for her work on
critically acclaimed non fiction podcasts and documentary series that have
captivated millions of listeners. So she is collaborating with such
media major media companies such as Sony Music Entertainment. Sleep
(01:15):
Magazine has made significant contributions to popular podcasts, including Broken
Jeffrey Epstein, Viral do the Work, and slow Burn. She's
the creative force beyond the documentary series Cover Up the
Pill Plot, which was released last summer. We'll talk about
that shortly, building into the history of the abortion pill,
and which also earned a spot on the Apple Podcasts
(01:35):
Top two hundred True Crime chart. There's more to say
about my guests, but we're just going to bring her on.
I'm here with TJ. Rafael. Thank you for being on
with me. I really appreciate you taking time out and
talking to me today.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Hi, thanks so much for having me. It's great to
be here.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
So off the bat, you come from a background of journalism,
as more specifically investigative journalism. The one thing I know
this now is that you know in the current ronment
of journalism. I have a program called The Broadcasters Podcast
that on a regular basis I talk about the plan
of journalists right now and the plan of publications, whether
(02:11):
it's digital, print news or you know, regular print news, now, television,
cable radio, all across the board. The lack of jobs
available out there and also the lack of opportunities because
of the cutdowns that will being made from what are
very much very corporate entities in many cases, so the
(02:31):
thought of investigative journalism is not something that you know,
you would think a large news division will hold on
to a lot of reporters that could really delve into
the real stories and also at the same time give
us the news without opinion editorial embedded into it. Talk
to me about where you are right now and where
your journalism background brought you into podcasting and why it did.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Yeah, So, I mean I have wanted to be a
journalist since I was in the fourth grade. I actually
in fourth grade, I had a project I to make,
like a small little book called Me, Myself and I
and they'll kind of last pages for like what do
you want to be.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
When you grow up?
Speaker 3 (03:13):
And I wrote that I wanted to be a broadcast
journalist and live in New York City. You know, since
I was a kid, I wanted to tell stories. I
loved reading stories. Obviously as a child, I wasn't reading
the news, but you know, both my parents were very
interested in news and media and very political as well,
and so you know, as I grew I had a
(03:35):
really clear clear sense of what.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
I wanted to do.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
And initially, you know, I started out in a print background.
When I was a senior in college, I did a
couple of different fellowships.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I did one with.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
The New York Daily News, and essentially I was working
unpaid because it was a fellowship as a reporter for
the News, and I was running around Manhattan, you know,
going from a red carpet event to the scene of
a fire, up to the scene of you know, a crime,
a sexual assault or something, and interviewing people about what
(04:08):
they knew. And I also was an editorial research assistant
to Wayne Barrett, who was a storied investigative journalist for
The Village Boys. Was a reporter covering all beneath the
New York State Capital, the Governor's office, the state's High Court.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
But the yeah, I think on all those areas established
well accredited. Again, you were embedded first of all for
the state capitol, New York into New York City itself
with some very legendary publications. Now, when you were there
again in a learning process, I mean, was it something
about which particular reporters or journalists that you wanted to
(04:47):
have reach out to the mentor with you. Were there
any particular people, you know, without saying names, if you
had to. But what was it that really drew you
into the area of investigator journalism. What was it you
saw that said, Okay, this is the direction I really
want to go.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
I really had.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
What I felt and still feel, is, you know, a
moral obligation to tell stories of injustice. That has been
really my north star throughout my career. And you know
the reason I am a journalist and continue to tell stories.
You know, the world's a really hard place. There's plenty
of people who need someone to help tell their story,
(05:28):
to help get whatever issue that they're dealing with, get
attention towards it.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
I could not.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Imagine doing anything else. I feel it, you know, deep
within my bones, to help people tell stories and to
you know, hopefully hold those in power accountable. As a
young person in my early twenties kind of breaking into
the industry, that was the kind of journalism I really
wanted to do. But then, you know, I started to
(05:55):
really shift into audio pretty early on. I remember when
I listened to my first podcast. I was actually driving
up to Albany to go back to my job up
there covering the Governor's office with a friend, and she
was driving me, and she had an iPod tells you around.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
What time, right, Well, that's exactly when by already by
that time, podcasting had already become a term.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yeah, and this was in two thousand and eight.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
She played an episode on her iPod of This American Life,
and you know, I say it was my gateway drug.
As soon as it ended, I said, do you have
another one? Can we listen to more? No?
Speaker 1 (06:37):
I guess too real quickly because it was something where
there was a transition period for you. Because and I'll
understand that's well because coming from radio nineteen ninety four,
I went to college and radio was still kind of
something relevant. But then there was a lot of deregulation.
The Telecommunications Act in ninetheen eighty six and passed, and
a lot of companies were being bought out as swallowed
(06:57):
by other bigger companies, and it was just a whole
fire sale of stations. And the way the radio environment
was by the time I graduated in ninety eight, it
changed completely. And I imagine what happened for you in
the college experience, because you did go through fellowships and
internships and on. By the time you got out and
you were you know, now, professional career is often going
(07:19):
the journalism landscape has changed, and so when you hear
you know, early adopters like NPR, which by the way,
on this program I always praised because they were early
in the step on this there also I count them
as responsible for the group to create mainstream podcasting. I
think when Cereal came out in twenty fourteen, they set
(07:41):
the bar out of such a great spot. And of
course adapted from This American Life. That's right there is
when podcasting was on the map for everybody to notice,
and that was where you got the good here right
at that point. And obviously This American Life also investigated
stories with like so Sarah Coding that hosted that show,
was that something that you know, did you notice yourself
(08:04):
by listening to that program that you were going to
get yourself in the environment someday? Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
I mean that was really, you know, a moment for
me where I saw, you know, audio storytelling might be
the medium that I would like to stay in. I
mean this, you know, when I heard that podcast, it
was two thousand and eight. Obviously we're at the peak
of the financial crisis. I wound up graduating a year
and a half later, and publications, print publications were shutting
(08:34):
down left and right. So it was, you know, a
very bleak time I think to be a journalist, especially
one focused on, you know, solely focused on the written word.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
You know.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
When I was at my daily News fellowship, you know,
they said, we wish we could hire you, We could
bring you on full time, but like, we don't have
the budget, We don't have money to hire new people
because you know, the industry was really struggling. I mean,
the newspaper industry is still struggling, you know. So it
was both you know, strategic, I think in that like
this it feels like a fresh and new medium at
(09:09):
the time, but also I just really felt connected to
hearing a story in that way. I think hearing someone's voice,
you know, and having it be part of the story,
you know, what they sound like, their emotions when they're talking,
elevated that storytelling experience, and it made me feel like
(09:29):
it was something I wanted to be a part of.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
And so you know, I.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Continued, you know until when, let's see, it was twenty thirteen.
I continued to work in print journalism. When I graduated
from college in twenty ten, I got a job at
a small trade publication in Connecticut and was writing about
media business and media economics. It was not you know,
the kind of storytelling I wanted to be doing.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
I was just happy to be.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Writing in the profession exactly. Yeah right. I want to
ask you this to TJ also to thousands of two
thousand and eight. We have you know, Twitter, Facebook, social
media is starting to burge at this point as well.
And I just called about this on the podcast the
Broadcasters podcast about the digital disruption because much like newspapers,
(10:14):
TV stations, radio stations, you know, they were not paying
attention that the and how would they know when they
didn't realize the Internet was going to be such a
factor to hurting their business. Because since that time's continued
to go in a road away at what physical units
can be sold. So the newspapers, like you say, if
it's the village voice of the daily news, that goes
(10:34):
by the wayside, because people can define their content online
and also, you know, looking for news that you're looking for,
they might not opt to go ahead and look forward
within a newspaper or a physical publication. They have to
open up. They're going to go find an online somewhere.
So the other thing now is we're all the way
from that point of time to where there's a bit
(10:56):
of it. I feel like, and this is my word,
the desperation right now with these publications like the Daily
News or you know, the York Post or you know
other Washington Post, all these other papers right now because
AI is coming to play. So the full circle, this
next turning right now of journalism is where journalists are
(11:16):
no longer the right, are no longer writing the stories.
They're just doing data entry right now to feed into
the machine, the computers, the algorithms that are going to
write the stories for the publications. What do you see
right now about this full circle turning right now? Because
that's where we are at this time, and now the
publications are getting paid by these AI companies more and
(11:38):
more every day to allow the access. Right.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
I mean, I think that there will always be a
place for investigative journalism. I don't think it's probably going
to look the way that it once was where you
have investigative journalists on staff. I think what's I envision
happening is independent journalists will you know, be working on
(12:03):
their own stuff and then pitch it out to larger publications.
I mean, I actually just signed a contract with Wondery, uh,
the you know podcast production reality owned by Amazon, thank you,
after I you know, for six months, was pursuing my
own investigative story. I then you know, brought it to
various podcast production houses. I had gotten you know, four
(12:26):
offers for development, and I ultimately wound up choosing Wondery,
And now my series is going to be released early
next year. So I do think that you know, investigative
journalism will always have a place. I do think that,
you know, the rise of AI is the you know,
KPIs the the metrics that publishers have instituted and worked
(12:47):
with advertisers on or you know, it's eyeballs, it's it's clicks,
it's a use, and so they need to be pumping
out content as quickly as possible. But the thing about
investigative reporting is it's not something that you can quickly
and so you know, I foresee potentially you know, these
you know kind of unfortunately for maybe like a junior
(13:07):
staffers who write these height of click baity articles, that
those roles could go away to AI, but the revenue
then generated could be used to invest investigative reporting. But
I also think it's going to be up to independent
journalists who feel like they want to pursue stories and
then bring them, shop them around to different outlets to
get them published. And I think there's always going to
(13:29):
be a need for that right now.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
The other thing too, is that we still see invisitand
journalists still out there today, but they're just not being
put out there with other They're just not out there
anymore like they used to be, but they're not in
the same places they can be found. But we now
have sub Stack, we now have Medium, we have other
places where Patreon that people can go and still help
to support and fund those kinds of investigative stories. So
(13:55):
what do you think about? Was that something that you
know before? You know obviously you're still working in the
podcasting and you know it's wondever that from your background
the last ten years plus working in podcasting that you
know it's I know, it's it's I feel like there
is about like it's who you know still even in
podcasting today, because if you're within these larger outfits, if
(14:16):
people know you, they know your work, you can still
find your way around and still will be able to
go and get projects green lid and put out there.
Before I move along to that, I want to just
ask you, is there anything preliminary you can tell us
about this new podcast that's going to come into wondering.
Is there anything you can tell us beforehand? But or
if not, just when we can expect what kind of
episodes we could expect, and when we can hear see
(14:37):
a possible launch.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
Yes, the show is scheduled to launch in early twenty
twenty five. I can't go too much into the specifics,
but I will say the top headline is I have
discovered a baby's selling operation at run by one of
the nation's most powerful institutions. And I have you know,
more that more and a dozen sources record now at
(15:02):
this point.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
So it's gonna be a doozy absolutely. Hey, I can't
a little bit.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
The thing is, but you're but you're not. But you've
never been prone to not go and sway away from
those kind of stories. The thing is the series you
had wrapped up last summer, cover Up, the pill plot
dealt with the complex history of the abortion pill. So
look and radio as there were two things where you don't
if you're doing a talk show, don't talk about abortion.
Don't talk about religion. It's like, if you can avoid it,
(15:29):
It's like you do not want phone callers to go
ahead and start talking about those areas because it will
be a never ending cycle of like polarization like you'd
never seen or it never heard. Excuse me, but you
went to that part, and I'm curious what would you
felt about when you went ahead and did that. And
obviously we're gonna go back to your experience with what
you did leading up to it, But you know the
fact you got to this point of being able to
(15:50):
do a story like this, you know, talking about the passion,
and you know what kind of response did you get
from your pee and from the general public when this
put got put out? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (16:05):
So I made that podcast with Sony's Global Podcast Division,
And honestly, there was some skittishness initially when I had
pitched the story. I pitched it a few weeks after
Roe versus Wade was overturned.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
I had just come.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Off of making an audio documentary series about the shadowy
business of sperm and donation, and I was searching for
my next story, and once Roe was overturned, I knew
I wanted to do something related to reproductive access in
the United States. I needed to find a story that
would be relevant a year later, because you know, podcasts,
(16:39):
especially investigative ones, take a long time to produce, and
so I also knew I needed to find a story that,
you know, could sustain multiple episodes and feel like a
true story that you were hearing versus let's.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Debate a topic.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
And I was able to uncover a wild story that
sounds like it was ripped out of an action flick
or an Ocean's eleven film about a network of you know,
anarchist punk feminists in the San Francisco Bay area who
intentionally tipped off US customs while smuggling in abortion pills
that were then illegal in the United States back in
(17:16):
nineteen ninety two, and their journey to fight the Supreme
Court on that issue while also dealing in the streets
with violence from the radical fringes of the anti abortion movement.
And so I found a story that felt like a thriller, honestly,
and then I think it showed that, you know, women's history,
reproductive history could be as exciting as an action thriller,
(17:39):
and so I was able to pitch it and position
the show in that way and show the bigger history
of what it really took to bring that medication to
the United States. A lot of people kind of just
know that, like, oh it was you know, got FDA
proved well in two thousand. There was a decade long
battle before that, including you know, there was assassinations of doctor,
(18:00):
acid attacks on clinics, bombings. It was a brutal time
and the lead.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Up to the passage of that medication.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
And so I was able to tell that story in
a way that I think listeners found engaging and surprising.
And that's you know, what I do hope to do
in my work generally, is you know, not just tell
stories that demonstrate some of the bigger issues that our
society's facing, but do it in a way that can
be you know, entertaining and feel like, you know, the
listener has a stake and is excited to hear what
(18:30):
happens next.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
So give me your background of podcasting where you came
into the space. First of all working for The Takeaway,
which you know, unfortunately I feel bad that the show
went by the wayside, but you know, wnyc for you itself.
I was always a fan of all things media with
Bob Garfield and I look at what the programming has
been there, and you know, of course pri I Public
(18:53):
Radio National always you know, beginning to have their programming
put over on NPR on many MPR stations. When you
look at what you got to do within the NPR environment,
I like to client and call that because it's something
to be said about. You know, when I do coaching
for other clients in my full time work for podcasting,
I always talk, well, you know, we want to have
that NPR sound. There's something about that and intellectualism, the
(19:17):
way it sounds, the way it's presented, something about that
that just resonates, right, And when you got to hear
that for yourself working on the take away in other
programs that you worked on, you know, tell me about
the fact of what it is about their approach. When
you hear the podcast like This American Life you listen
to in two thousand and eight to today, what is
it about you think that approach that just resonates so
(19:37):
well with listeners.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
I think audio storytelling. You know, NPR Public Radio really
helped to perfect the art of audio storytelling. Nina Tottenberg,
who is you know, NPR's longtime Supreme Court correspondent. She
has this quote that really really resonates with me. She
said that, you know, the power of radio and podcasting
(20:02):
is you can let you see a drama that plays
out without any pictures, and at the end of the day,
it's a drama that matters. And so I think that
that's one of the reasons why, you know, public radio
has been so successful. They really understood that early on,
and they took the medium seriously. A lot of you know, publishers,
(20:23):
traditional publishers who have started breaking into podcasting and wanting
to replicate something like a serial don't understand what it
takes to create an audio documentary. Requires an editorial team,
it requires reporting, it requires technique and sound design and
understanding how a narrative should unfold in audio versus in print.
(20:48):
And so that's where why I think public radio has
been successful, and I think a lot of people who
had previously worked in public radio have gone into podcasting
specifically through those traditions and built upon them in ways
that feel really unique and satisfying.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Now, podcasting, as you've already mentioned earlier, about how it
really has opened up the world for content creation. For
the fact that stories like cover Up can be told
out there for more people to go ahead and hear
more stories that they would probably never go to catch
in other outlets. But here's the thing. These ideas that
you're able to go to pitch within you know these
(21:29):
are not Graspers organizations. Again, so you know, to go
to Sony and their global podcast division to go and
create cover up or to do stories for the takeaway,
or to do you know, podcasts that are out there
and contribute to those like Broken, jeffy Epstein or slow Burn.
The thing is that you know they're owned by corporations
and I would imagine it's kind of be tough to
(21:49):
go ahead and pitch and give ideas that you know
there could be a risk there could be a bit
of a mitigation of all in terms of, you know,
well something blow back on the company by putting the
story out there. Give me what you've had in terms
of some of the pitch meanings that you've had with
some of these organizations And have they given you to
that kind of think or have they really been very
(22:10):
receptible and warm and they've given you the access, They've
given you basically the permission and the blessing to go
as far as you need to go with the story.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Yeah, I mean I have, you know, largely gotten the
permission and blessing. And I think the reason why is
because you're not leading with topic. You're leading with the story.
You know, if you say I'm going to do I
want to do something on abortion rates. Let's say that's
a topic, abortion rates. What is the specific story that
(22:40):
you're going to tell if you can find a good story.
I think a lot of publishers are willing to make
something regardless of the topic, as long as the story
is compelling. And so I think that's a big distinction
for people as they go through this journey of pitching.
You know, you can't just go to a company and say, hey,
I'd really like the something about X. Like okay, well,
(23:02):
what is the story that you're trying to tell? Bind me,
who are the characters, what are the stakes? You need
those specifics before you ever walk into a pitch meeting.
I'm actually teaching I'm an online course in September with
the Association of Independence and Radio called how to Pitch
your podcasts to executives and get it made. So I'm
going to go into it a lot there. You know,
(23:23):
one of my big things is like, if you're just
walking into a pitch meeting with like a vague outline
and being like I would talk to this person if
I got a green light, You're doing it wrong. When
I pitch a show, I have already contacted who the
people who are going to be my main characters. I
have gotten by in from them, access to them. I
(23:44):
have multiple characters. I have developed an episode outline of
how I imagine the story, the specific story unfolding over several episodes.
I have supplemental materials of research. I have, you know,
documents making the case for why the story should be
told right now. So I think that the topic is
(24:04):
not necessarily you know, you know, murder is controversial to
you know, just because of things on abortion, right, Like,
you know, I think it doesn't really matter as long
as you have a good story in the story. I've
found a pill plot of anarchist punks challenging the government
and battling you know, you know, violent extremists in this
literally in the streets. That was a good story and
(24:26):
so I was able to get by from that. And
I think that's the key to you know, whether you're
pitching something in print or if you're for the web
or in audio. If you have a good story, you
have a good story, and people will want that story
to be told.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
So as a good point you make because for some people,
if they want to consume that story, maybe they want
to listen to it in an audiobook or be able
to read it and you know, on a nook or Kindle.
Is that something you've also looked at the fact that
you know, when you are preparing this content, do you
feel like it's also something that you could generate and
just read platform onto a print platform.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Yes and no.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
So I mean I think that I probably could have
told a shorter version of you know, something like the
pill plot for example, or even what I'm working on now.
But one of the reasons I prefer audio to other
mediums is because I think it allows you to go
really deep and get really immersive in the story. You know,
(25:25):
six or seven forty five minute episodes is going to
deliver you a lot more story than you know, a
twelve hundred word article will, or even a five thousand
word article will. For me, you know, I could have,
you know, pitched any one of these stories in a
print format, and I think I probably would have had
a good shot of you know, getting it published. But
(25:49):
I love audio, and so I wanted to tell this
these stories in audio because again I wanted to hear,
you know, the pain in someone's voice when and you know,
they were telling me that, you know, they almost had
their leg broken when they were trying to defend their
abortion clinic. That you know, when they turned on the
news one day and they saw that that clinic was
(26:11):
on TV because it had been burnt to the ground.
You know, Capturing that emotion in audio it just I
think it does so much for the story versus just
kind of reading that on the page.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Right. The other thing too, is that when you look
at the current environment of podcasting, of it's a lot
of mainstream podcasters that encompassed the top of the Spotify
and Apple charts. But you know, when I look at
what they have out there now in terms of the
programma that we have, Okay, a lot of podcast deals
are being made all across the board. Alex Cooper Call
Her Daddy just got one hundred plus million dollars per
(26:43):
year deal over all over the next three years for
her show to go over to Serious exam They're SmartLess
that went over to serious exam you have Joe Rogan
literally had that first big deal. It went over to Spotify,
among others, and you're seeing that those outlets are you know,
so they're trying to get together to the podcasting, but
they're more into the entertainment side. But when I look
(27:06):
at Apple podcasts that are top charts right now, the
Story of Noble is the most popular show now in
podcasting on Apple. The story about the investigations of the
America South, you know, in what are two thousand, two,
three hundred bodies on one property in the tiny town
of Noble, Georgia. The whole story like that something out
of Twin Peaks. But those stories still resonate. It is
(27:27):
hard to go ahead and find, you know, in the
world of podcasts that we have that are all news
and commentary, that are all these commentary shows, that are
entertainment shows and comedy podcasts, to break through the mold
and have an investigative podcast or a non fiction podcast
like this to break through the mold. Tell me about
how important that is right now, because I guess you know,
(27:48):
it's surprising on you know, when you find out who
your listeners are and how certain stories will resonate and
will become much more viral than others.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
Yeah, I mean, and I think the reason why it's
so important to you know, have these kind of documentaries
in audio right now is, I mean, our world is
really a challenging place. There are so many people out
there who have compet line stories and feel like they
(28:21):
don't have a voice or a means to tell it,
and their stories are extremely important to our society, you know,
to holding people accountable. I think the podcast a couple
of years ago in the Dark had won a Pulitzer Prize.
You know, the part the reporting that this podcast did
actually spurred a Supreme Court case, and so, you know,
(28:43):
I think the best kinds of journalism can be journalism
that changes the world, that holds people in power accountable,
that shines a light on abuse of power. I don't
care if it's done in a print medium or if
it's done in audio media medium, it can be really impactful.
So that's why I think it's important to have you know,
(29:04):
investigative reporting in audio right now, because it's another access
point and a person might be you know, mormlling to
listen to a podcast that feels like an exciting story
instead of you know, reading you know what feels like
a hard news article on you know, the New York
Times website or the Washington Post website. So you might
(29:25):
be you're probably reaching a different demographic who might also
not be thinking about these things until you present it
to them in audio.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
There's a part when it comes to the podcast as
I just mentioned. So obviously these big podcasting out lists
three your SIXM you know, and then that you give
mentioned Amazon that owns Wondery you have, you know, ieart Radio,
our Media, also all the podcasts games. Spotify also in
the podcast game, putting a lot of money now on
the podcast creation, more content creation than ever. Just it
(29:54):
seems like idea where you say, to where Netflix with
this model seria six ms trying to go the way
of Spotify, trying to creating this all in one audio platform.
But one of the things that I always look at
is that you know, is the way they want to
make their money put it behind subscription models. So like
say with Apple podcast, they now have the subscription model
where you know, serious xem wants to put a load
of their original content behind a paywall fine ninety nine
(30:15):
a month. On top of what they're paying for everybody
else they're using for serious xps, So again the extra
add on buy. The other thing too is that, you know,
while they're putting the money in the content, would there
be a risk that certain podcasts like yours or theirs
are gonna have giving you that staffing, the resources you
have to create these bigger programs if they're going to
(30:36):
try to offset some of the costs by using AI
on automation for voiceover work or for script writing or
things like that. You know, are those some of the
things you look at that you started to see extorting
to make its way, you know, raise its head into
the podcasting houses you've been in. Is that something you
think might become more of a norm coming up in
(30:58):
the future.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
So, for a couple of reasons, you know, podcast listeners
like to connect with the host.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
I don't foresee listeners really gravitating towards an AI voice,
even if that AI voice can sound like an authentic human.
One of the reasons why NPR I think a recent
survey found that like their podcasts are among the most
trusted to date, and that's because they trust the voices
(31:29):
that are telling them information. So I don't think that's
going to happen. I also have noticed that there's been
a fairly big unionization push UH in the audio industry specifically,
and who have been you know, organizing with groups like
the Writer's Guild of America, and so I think that
that's also going to protect against the use of AI
(31:52):
in podcasting as well. You know, I think that probably
in the future we'll all be touched in some way
by AI. I don't know what that looks like right now.
For podcasting, I haven't seen you know, AI employed. At
least in the places that I have worked, there has been,
you know, a desire to work with real humans in
(32:15):
terms of you know, one of the reasons why I
think companies use AI is it's to cut coths, right.
I think that, you know, unfortunately, the audio industry based
some really huge layoffs last year. I was laid off
from Sony in July of twenty twenty three, right after
the pillplot launched. They eliminated their entire in house creative department.
(32:38):
And then I started reporting immediately and as an independent
journalist and pitched my show to Wondery. I think that
that's going to be the model going forward to save
costs where you know, independent journalists are pursuing their own
stories and then you know, they pitch it to a company,
they get funding to help get it made. And that's
(32:59):
a way that companies won't have to you know, keep
people on staff, but also avoid using AI I think
as well, because their costs are already low as it
relates to you know, staffing costs.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Basically.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
You know, you made an excellent point when you talk
about unionization because you know it was on a broadcasters podcast.
I actually reported about WGA East creating the iHeart Podcast
Network union. So one hundred members joining that union right
now and having their first collective bargaining agreement set in play.
Now when you have been in some of these other
podcasting outlets, is that something that you know, do you
(33:35):
feel like there's getting to a point where some of
these outlets, because of where they're working with and you know,
the conditions you're in, do you think like unionization is
going to be more of somebody that's going to grow
and continue to expand to other podcasting outlets. Do you
think there's gonna be someday maybe saying in a decade
where all these major podcasters are going to be unionized.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
Yeah, I think unionization is going to continue to grow.
I mean, I think it was just within the last
week that Cricket Media, which makes you know, Patza of
America and other shows, they just announced that the union
of you know, producers and the people actually making the
shows there had you know, come to terms with the
(34:19):
company management that they had you know, gotten a floor
for salaries, they had gotten you know, really great package
for paid time off, really great parental lead program. And
I feel like, honestly, like every you know, two months,
I'm seeing a new podcast production house unionize. So I
(34:39):
do think that that's going to be a trend that
will continue. I think that you know, podcasters who are
working with production houses add staff. You know, they are
creative professionals. It's no surprise to me that they would
want to try to work at a place that has
some union protection. I think that this will continue to
(35:00):
be a trend. You know. I when I was at
Slate on staff, we were organized under the Writer's Guild
of America East. And I still, even though I'm not
you know, an employee of any company at the moment,
I still am paying my dues as a WGA member.
So yeah, I think that's gonna be a trend that
we continue to see. I think we saw, you know,
(35:22):
the huge protest. I'm part of STAG, I'm part of
w GA, part of you know, the Actors Guild, the
Directors Guild, and so I think creative professionals everywhere are
trying to collectively organize to make sure things like AI
don't take their jobs eventually. So I do think that
that'll continue in audio and podcasting as well.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
So that sounds a good question too. So I don't
know if you have participated in New York there with
the writers and actors strike that did a cap in
last year, you know, for what nine months, ten months
whatever it was. The one thing was I guess when
you look at what the actors and writers were going for,
which obviously they were justified they had to hold out
to the studios to make sure they got what they
(36:03):
need in terms of AI, in terms of the views.
I totally understand and justified the fact they had it
going hold this time and make sure they got as
much as they could they could when they got to
the table and really stress the big media companies out
that I totally agree with that. I supported them one
hundred percent. But now with podcasting the same thing here
where like you said, Crookermedia, they even walked out for
(36:24):
a while to try to go and make sure that
their dudes got met when it came to minimum guaranteed salary,
days paid off, you know, benefits across the board. And
I just want to know, did you get the chance
to you partake in any of the pickets at all?
And what you see right now in terms of WGA
as an entity coming in to becoming the bargaining you
(36:48):
know union for employees like yourself.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Yeah, I mean I did participate in some of the
marches last summer. I lived literally half a pluck away
from Silver Cup Studios here at Queen's which is a
large you know film studio, and so I saw them
protesting outside of there, and so I said, hey, let
me walk over your sign ticket sign. Yeah. I was like, oh,
(37:15):
I didn't even know that you guys were doing this today,
but I've.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Just been out for a walk, so cool. So yeah,
I mean I.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
Did participate in that sense. And yeah, I just believe
that also coming off last year where there were so
many layoffs, I think that you know, the people that
were able to survive at their companies, probably got nervous
and were like, oh man, we should probably unionize because
you know, you know, you being in a union doesn't
(37:44):
fully insulate you obviously from layoffs, but it could definitely help.
And so I do believe that you know, more and more,
you know, producers, editors, storytellers at podcast production houses are
going to try already unionize. I know that there's many
that already exist, and I have no doubt that that's
(38:06):
not going to slow down.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
But now the one thing of competition where radio doesn't
have this anymore, unfortunately, because there's not enough grassroots radio
outlets to compete or to have a presence against the
larger radio companies. But you know, the reason why radio
has gone the way it is and why podcasting has
taken over is because of some of the mistakes they've made. Again,
the major radio companies laden with debt. You know, they
(38:28):
have private equity holding on to these companies and basically
just picking off the bones like vultures. I really feel
like it's vulture capital has really ruined the industry there.
That's why there's so many people that have come in.
They're great talent and radio opening of the podcasting. But
the other thing two is that when you have a
difference between the mainstream podcasts that like like the Wonderies
and the Crooked media is and the serious XM spotifies
(38:51):
at all that are distributing all this content out the
one thing is there is all these grassroots podcasts thousands
upon thousands right now, hundreds of thousands a matter of fact,
that are still out there competing against you know, all
these other shows out there. So when you look at that,
do you ever kind of look back and you know,
behind your shoulder and say, we had to stay on
our game, because anybody can come into the world to
(39:12):
work and become viral sensation, and then all of a sudden,
you know, we have new people that can always compete.
There's a competition with other grassroots to always keep in
mind to. And also it creates the idea for you know,
since two thousand and eight or even before, a lot
of people know now that it's much easier than ever
to start a podcast. So for those that might want
(39:32):
to give the podcast industry start their own, what advice
would you give them and what should they look at
when they look at the environment.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
And my main piece of advice would be to please
get a good mic.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
There's plenty and.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
There's so many podcasts out there that it sounds horrible.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Uh A great technical standpoint.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
Yeah, And I mean I think that you know, grassroots podcasts,
there are various collectives that those people can join. Like
you know, I mentioned the Association of Independence and Radio earlier,
that's a great organization to join. There are plenty of
collectives that you can join to seek out support. You know,
(40:14):
Radiotopia is I think has a really interesting business model
where it's functioning more like a co op now where
you know, the people that are making the podcast own
a stake in the company and so and you know,
if you are a grassroots podcaster, I mean, it's a
great you know, get into the medium, hone your skills,
(40:36):
perfect your skills, and you know, tell those stories and
you can then.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
You know, pitch it to a big company.
Speaker 3 (40:44):
I think, I think that we actually are in a
very unique moment because a lot of these big companies
in the last year have laid off all of these
people their in house creative talent. But they still want
to and need to make podcasts. They need stories, but
they no longer have people on staff bringing them to
the greed. So it is, you know, for a grassroots person,
(41:07):
for an independent podcaster, it is actually a really good
time to try to get yourself in front of one
of these big companies with a story and say, I
know you're looking for content.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
I got it, you know, take me up on it.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
So I would say, yeah, keep creating, because you know,
when I first started hutting podcasting, I didn't know what
I was doing, and now you know, ten years later, I,
you know, just signed a deal with one of the
biggest podcast publishers in the world. I definitely wasn't at
that level when I started, but I worked my way
there because I loved the medium and I wanted to
(41:44):
keep doing it. And so I would encourage anybody that
feels passionately about audio storytelling to stick with it. You know,
there's gonna be ups and downs, but like you can
do it, so yeah, and get a good mic.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Absolutely, I one hundred and fifty percent agree with the micolute.
So again, TJ. Rafael audio journalists, reporter, producer, host. Before
we go to wrap things up, I want to go
and direct people to your website because while you're getting
ready to go and get things started with the Wondering
podcast that's gonna be upcoming, which we will be with
Baby Breath waiting to goin to hear somewhere down the
line early twenty twenty five. You do have your website
(42:17):
TJ Rafael dot com TJ R A P H A E. L.
Think of Sally Jesse Rafael. You know that name there
you go direct last turn, So yeah, TJ Rafael by
the way, no relation, uh, tj rafael dot com. You
offer you the work when it comes to enterprise of
investigative reporting on our hosting a voiceover series, development show running,
(42:37):
scriptwriting and editing, producing a tape syncs so much more
so for people that want to go ahead reach out
to you, let them know what they should go and do.
If they're gonna come to your website at possibly go
work with you.
Speaker 3 (42:48):
Yeah, feel free to send me a message through my website.
You can also reach me on LinkedIn or Twitter. And yeah,
you know, I make my own stories, but I am
available as a journalist for hire. So you know, if
you want to create something together, if you have a
tip that you need help sussing out, you need somebody
to kick the tires on it. I am definitely down
(43:11):
to collaborate, so you can reach me your my website
and also see my recent work. And yeah, if you
follow me on social media you'll see when my new
shows come up. So yeah, thank you so much for
hey for having me. This has been really fun. I
love talking shop and yeah, it's been great to be here.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Oh oh, thank you so much. The pleasure has been
online and seriously, the connection to LinkedIn that's how we met, Mike.
I was still surprised. I just out of a whim,
I just saw you there and I was like, it's
just see what happens. And I'm so happy that you
decided to come on and do the show. Thank you
so much for being on. This was really great and
continued best success for you in yours.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Thanks, have a great day, all.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Right, Thank you folks, and once again there we go
tj Raphael dot com. Make sure to go ahead and
look at all the work that she's doing and also
keep it out of that podcast coming up through one
And for all your listeners, thanks for listening. It's always
King of Podcasts dot coms where you find all my
content and we'll talk to you next time.
Welcome on and also another podcaster's row. King of Podcasts
dot com is a website where you find all my
past interviews and of course this series is available through
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google, through YouTube and YouTube Music, and
Amazon Music, I Heart Radio, among other places. But my
next guest, you know, has some warrrible they's going to
(00:32):
bring up in terms of the area of coming from
the area of journalism into investigator journalism into creating content
that works and compliments great with podcasting and also has
worked where I have worked at a lot of the
grassroots podcasting outlets for since two thousand and five, my
guest has gotten to work with some really great mainstream
(00:52):
large outlets that we're gonna go and talk about here
on the program today. So she is an accomplished audio
journalist for order, producer and host with over fifteen years
experience in the media industry, celebrated for her work on
critically acclaimed non fiction podcasts and documentary series that have
captivated millions of listeners. So she is collaborating with such
media major media companies such as Sony Music Entertainment. Sleep
(01:15):
Magazine has made significant contributions to popular podcasts, including Broken
Jeffrey Epstein, Viral do the Work, and slow Burn. She's
the creative force beyond the documentary series Cover Up the
Pill Plot, which was released last summer. We'll talk about
that shortly, building into the history of the abortion pill,
and which also earned a spot on the Apple Podcasts
(01:35):
Top two hundred True Crime chart. There's more to say
about my guests, but we're just going to bring her on.
I'm here with TJ. Rafael. Thank you for being on
with me. I really appreciate you taking time out and
talking to me today.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Hi, thanks so much for having me. It's great to
be here.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
So off the bat, you come from a background of journalism,
as more specifically investigative journalism. The one thing I know
this now is that you know in the current ronment
of journalism. I have a program called The Broadcasters Podcast
that on a regular basis I talk about the plan
of journalists right now and the plan of publications, whether
(02:11):
it's digital, print news or you know, regular print news, now, television,
cable radio, all across the board. The lack of jobs
available out there and also the lack of opportunities because
of the cutdowns that will being made from what are
very much very corporate entities in many cases, so the
(02:31):
thought of investigative journalism is not something that you know,
you would think a large news division will hold on
to a lot of reporters that could really delve into
the real stories and also at the same time give
us the news without opinion editorial embedded into it. Talk
to me about where you are right now and where
your journalism background brought you into podcasting and why it did.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Yeah, So, I mean I have wanted to be a
journalist since I was in the fourth grade. I actually
in fourth grade, I had a project I to make,
like a small little book called Me, Myself and I
and they'll kind of last pages for like what do
you want to be.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
When you grow up?
Speaker 3 (03:13):
And I wrote that I wanted to be a broadcast
journalist and live in New York City. You know, since
I was a kid, I wanted to tell stories. I
loved reading stories. Obviously as a child, I wasn't reading
the news, but you know, both my parents were very
interested in news and media and very political as well,
and so you know, as I grew I had a
(03:35):
really clear clear sense of what.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
I wanted to do.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
And initially, you know, I started out in a print background.
When I was a senior in college, I did a
couple of different fellowships.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I did one with.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
The New York Daily News, and essentially I was working
unpaid because it was a fellowship as a reporter for
the News, and I was running around Manhattan, you know,
going from a red carpet event to the scene of
a fire, up to the scene of you know, a crime,
a sexual assault or something, and interviewing people about what
(04:08):
they knew. And I also was an editorial research assistant
to Wayne Barrett, who was a storied investigative journalist for
The Village Boys. Was a reporter covering all beneath the
New York State Capital, the Governor's office, the state's High Court.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
But the yeah, I think on all those areas established
well accredited. Again, you were embedded first of all for
the state capitol, New York into New York City itself
with some very legendary publications. Now, when you were there
again in a learning process, I mean, was it something
about which particular reporters or journalists that you wanted to
(04:47):
have reach out to the mentor with you. Were there
any particular people, you know, without saying names, if you
had to. But what was it that really drew you
into the area of investigator journalism. What was it you
saw that said, Okay, this is the direction I really
want to go.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
I really had.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
What I felt and still feel, is, you know, a
moral obligation to tell stories of injustice. That has been
really my north star throughout my career. And you know
the reason I am a journalist and continue to tell stories.
You know, the world's a really hard place. There's plenty
of people who need someone to help tell their story,
(05:28):
to help get whatever issue that they're dealing with, get
attention towards it.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
I could not.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Imagine doing anything else. I feel it, you know, deep
within my bones, to help people tell stories and to
you know, hopefully hold those in power accountable. As a
young person in my early twenties kind of breaking into
the industry, that was the kind of journalism I really
wanted to do. But then, you know, I started to
(05:55):
really shift into audio pretty early on. I remember when
I listened to my first podcast. I was actually driving
up to Albany to go back to my job up
there covering the Governor's office with a friend, and she
was driving me, and she had an iPod tells you around.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
What time, right, Well, that's exactly when by already by
that time, podcasting had already become a term.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yeah, and this was in two thousand and eight.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
She played an episode on her iPod of This American Life,
and you know, I say it was my gateway drug.
As soon as it ended, I said, do you have
another one? Can we listen to more? No?
Speaker 1 (06:37):
I guess too real quickly because it was something where
there was a transition period for you. Because and I'll
understand that's well because coming from radio nineteen ninety four,
I went to college and radio was still kind of
something relevant. But then there was a lot of deregulation.
The Telecommunications Act in ninetheen eighty six and passed, and
a lot of companies were being bought out as swallowed
(06:57):
by other bigger companies, and it was just a whole
fire sale of stations. And the way the radio environment
was by the time I graduated in ninety eight, it
changed completely. And I imagine what happened for you in
the college experience, because you did go through fellowships and
internships and on. By the time you got out and
you were you know, now, professional career is often going
(07:19):
the journalism landscape has changed, and so when you hear
you know, early adopters like NPR, which by the way,
on this program I always praised because they were early
in the step on this there also I count them
as responsible for the group to create mainstream podcasting. I
think when Cereal came out in twenty fourteen, they set
(07:41):
the bar out of such a great spot. And of
course adapted from This American Life. That's right there is
when podcasting was on the map for everybody to notice,
and that was where you got the good here right
at that point. And obviously This American Life also investigated
stories with like so Sarah Coding that hosted that show,
was that something that you know, did you notice yourself
(08:04):
by listening to that program that you were going to
get yourself in the environment someday? Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
I mean that was really, you know, a moment for
me where I saw, you know, audio storytelling might be
the medium that I would like to stay in. I
mean this, you know, when I heard that podcast, it
was two thousand and eight. Obviously we're at the peak
of the financial crisis. I wound up graduating a year
and a half later, and publications, print publications were shutting
(08:34):
down left and right. So it was, you know, a
very bleak time I think to be a journalist, especially
one focused on, you know, solely focused on the written word.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
You know.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
When I was at my daily News fellowship, you know,
they said, we wish we could hire you, We could
bring you on full time, but like, we don't have
the budget, We don't have money to hire new people
because you know, the industry was really struggling. I mean,
the newspaper industry is still struggling, you know. So it
was both you know, strategic, I think in that like
this it feels like a fresh and new medium at
(09:09):
the time, but also I just really felt connected to
hearing a story in that way. I think hearing someone's voice,
you know, and having it be part of the story,
you know, what they sound like, their emotions when they're talking,
elevated that storytelling experience, and it made me feel like
(09:29):
it was something I wanted to be a part of.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
And so you know, I.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Continued, you know until when, let's see, it was twenty thirteen.
I continued to work in print journalism. When I graduated
from college in twenty ten, I got a job at
a small trade publication in Connecticut and was writing about
media business and media economics. It was not you know,
the kind of storytelling I wanted to be doing.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
I was just happy to be.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Writing in the profession exactly. Yeah right. I want to
ask you this to TJ also to thousands of two
thousand and eight. We have you know, Twitter, Facebook, social
media is starting to burge at this point as well.
And I just called about this on the podcast the
Broadcasters podcast about the digital disruption because much like newspapers,
(10:14):
TV stations, radio stations, you know, they were not paying
attention that the and how would they know when they
didn't realize the Internet was going to be such a
factor to hurting their business. Because since that time's continued
to go in a road away at what physical units
can be sold. So the newspapers, like you say, if
it's the village voice of the daily news, that goes
(10:34):
by the wayside, because people can define their content online
and also, you know, looking for news that you're looking for,
they might not opt to go ahead and look forward
within a newspaper or a physical publication. They have to
open up. They're going to go find an online somewhere.
So the other thing now is we're all the way
from that point of time to where there's a bit
(10:56):
of it. I feel like, and this is my word,
the desperation right now with these publications like the Daily
News or you know, the York Post or you know
other Washington Post, all these other papers right now because
AI is coming to play. So the full circle, this
next turning right now of journalism is where journalists are
(11:16):
no longer the right, are no longer writing the stories.
They're just doing data entry right now to feed into
the machine, the computers, the algorithms that are going to
write the stories for the publications. What do you see
right now about this full circle turning right now? Because
that's where we are at this time, and now the
publications are getting paid by these AI companies more and
(11:38):
more every day to allow the access. Right.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
I mean, I think that there will always be a
place for investigative journalism. I don't think it's probably going
to look the way that it once was where you
have investigative journalists on staff. I think what's I envision
happening is independent journalists will you know, be working on
(12:03):
their own stuff and then pitch it out to larger publications.
I mean, I actually just signed a contract with Wondery, uh,
the you know podcast production reality owned by Amazon, thank you,
after I you know, for six months, was pursuing my
own investigative story. I then you know, brought it to
various podcast production houses. I had gotten you know, four
(12:26):
offers for development, and I ultimately wound up choosing Wondery,
And now my series is going to be released early
next year. So I do think that you know, investigative
journalism will always have a place. I do think that,
you know, the rise of AI is the you know,
KPIs the the metrics that publishers have instituted and worked
(12:47):
with advertisers on or you know, it's eyeballs, it's it's clicks,
it's a use, and so they need to be pumping
out content as quickly as possible. But the thing about
investigative reporting is it's not something that you can quickly
and so you know, I foresee potentially you know, these
you know kind of unfortunately for maybe like a junior
(13:07):
staffers who write these height of click baity articles, that
those roles could go away to AI, but the revenue
then generated could be used to invest investigative reporting. But
I also think it's going to be up to independent
journalists who feel like they want to pursue stories and
then bring them, shop them around to different outlets to
get them published. And I think there's always going to
(13:29):
be a need for that right now.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
The other thing too, is that we still see invisitand
journalists still out there today, but they're just not being
put out there with other They're just not out there
anymore like they used to be, but they're not in
the same places they can be found. But we now
have sub Stack, we now have Medium, we have other
places where Patreon that people can go and still help
to support and fund those kinds of investigative stories. So
(13:55):
what do you think about? Was that something that you
know before? You know obviously you're still working in the
podcasting and you know it's wondever that from your background
the last ten years plus working in podcasting that you
know it's I know, it's it's I feel like there
is about like it's who you know still even in
podcasting today, because if you're within these larger outfits, if
(14:16):
people know you, they know your work, you can still
find your way around and still will be able to
go and get projects green lid and put out there.
Before I move along to that, I want to just
ask you, is there anything preliminary you can tell us
about this new podcast that's going to come into wondering.
Is there anything you can tell us beforehand? But or
if not, just when we can expect what kind of
episodes we could expect, and when we can hear see
(14:37):
a possible launch.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
Yes, the show is scheduled to launch in early twenty
twenty five. I can't go too much into the specifics,
but I will say the top headline is I have
discovered a baby's selling operation at run by one of
the nation's most powerful institutions. And I have you know,
more that more and a dozen sources record now at
(15:02):
this point.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
So it's gonna be a doozy absolutely. Hey, I can't
a little bit.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
The thing is, but you're but you're not. But you've
never been prone to not go and sway away from
those kind of stories. The thing is the series you
had wrapped up last summer, cover Up, the pill plot
dealt with the complex history of the abortion pill. So
look and radio as there were two things where you don't
if you're doing a talk show, don't talk about abortion.
Don't talk about religion. It's like, if you can avoid it,
(15:29):
It's like you do not want phone callers to go
ahead and start talking about those areas because it will
be a never ending cycle of like polarization like you'd
never seen or it never heard. Excuse me, but you
went to that part, and I'm curious what would you
felt about when you went ahead and did that. And
obviously we're gonna go back to your experience with what
you did leading up to it, But you know the
fact you got to this point of being able to
(15:50):
do a story like this, you know, talking about the passion,
and you know what kind of response did you get
from your pee and from the general public when this
put got put out? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (16:05):
So I made that podcast with Sony's Global Podcast Division,
And honestly, there was some skittishness initially when I had
pitched the story. I pitched it a few weeks after
Roe versus Wade was overturned.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
I had just come.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Off of making an audio documentary series about the shadowy
business of sperm and donation, and I was searching for
my next story, and once Roe was overturned, I knew
I wanted to do something related to reproductive access in
the United States. I needed to find a story that
would be relevant a year later, because you know, podcasts,
(16:39):
especially investigative ones, take a long time to produce, and
so I also knew I needed to find a story that,
you know, could sustain multiple episodes and feel like a
true story that you were hearing versus let's.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Debate a topic.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
And I was able to uncover a wild story that
sounds like it was ripped out of an action flick
or an Ocean's eleven film about a network of you know,
anarchist punk feminists in the San Francisco Bay area who
intentionally tipped off US customs while smuggling in abortion pills
that were then illegal in the United States back in
(17:16):
nineteen ninety two, and their journey to fight the Supreme
Court on that issue while also dealing in the streets
with violence from the radical fringes of the anti abortion movement.
And so I found a story that felt like a thriller, honestly,
and then I think it showed that, you know, women's history,
reproductive history could be as exciting as an action thriller,
(17:39):
and so I was able to pitch it and position
the show in that way and show the bigger history
of what it really took to bring that medication to
the United States. A lot of people kind of just
know that, like, oh it was you know, got FDA
proved well in two thousand. There was a decade long
battle before that, including you know, there was assassinations of doctor,
(18:00):
acid attacks on clinics, bombings. It was a brutal time
and the lead.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Up to the passage of that medication.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
And so I was able to tell that story in
a way that I think listeners found engaging and surprising.
And that's you know, what I do hope to do
in my work generally, is you know, not just tell
stories that demonstrate some of the bigger issues that our
society's facing, but do it in a way that can
be you know, entertaining and feel like, you know, the
listener has a stake and is excited to hear what
(18:30):
happens next.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
So give me your background of podcasting where you came
into the space. First of all working for The Takeaway,
which you know, unfortunately I feel bad that the show
went by the wayside, but you know, wnyc for you itself.
I was always a fan of all things media with
Bob Garfield and I look at what the programming has
been there, and you know, of course pri I Public
(18:53):
Radio National always you know, beginning to have their programming
put over on NPR on many MPR stations. When you
look at what you got to do within the NPR environment,
I like to client and call that because it's something
to be said about. You know, when I do coaching
for other clients in my full time work for podcasting,
I always talk, well, you know, we want to have
that NPR sound. There's something about that and intellectualism, the
(19:17):
way it sounds, the way it's presented, something about that
that just resonates, right, And when you got to hear
that for yourself working on the take away in other
programs that you worked on, you know, tell me about
the fact of what it is about their approach. When
you hear the podcast like This American Life you listen
to in two thousand and eight to today, what is
it about you think that approach that just resonates so
(19:37):
well with listeners.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
I think audio storytelling. You know, NPR Public Radio really
helped to perfect the art of audio storytelling. Nina Tottenberg,
who is you know, NPR's longtime Supreme Court correspondent. She
has this quote that really really resonates with me. She
said that, you know, the power of radio and podcasting
(20:02):
is you can let you see a drama that plays
out without any pictures, and at the end of the day,
it's a drama that matters. And so I think that
that's one of the reasons why, you know, public radio
has been so successful. They really understood that early on,
and they took the medium seriously. A lot of you know, publishers,
(20:23):
traditional publishers who have started breaking into podcasting and wanting
to replicate something like a serial don't understand what it
takes to create an audio documentary. Requires an editorial team,
it requires reporting, it requires technique and sound design and
understanding how a narrative should unfold in audio versus in print.
(20:48):
And so that's where why I think public radio has
been successful, and I think a lot of people who
had previously worked in public radio have gone into podcasting
specifically through those traditions and built upon them in ways
that feel really unique and satisfying.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Now, podcasting, as you've already mentioned earlier, about how it
really has opened up the world for content creation. For
the fact that stories like cover Up can be told
out there for more people to go ahead and hear
more stories that they would probably never go to catch
in other outlets. But here's the thing. These ideas that
you're able to go to pitch within you know these
(21:29):
are not Graspers organizations. Again, so you know, to go
to Sony and their global podcast division to go and
create cover up or to do stories for the takeaway,
or to do you know, podcasts that are out there
and contribute to those like Broken, jeffy Epstein or slow Burn.
The thing is that you know they're owned by corporations
and I would imagine it's kind of be tough to
(21:49):
go ahead and pitch and give ideas that you know
there could be a risk there could be a bit
of a mitigation of all in terms of, you know,
well something blow back on the company by putting the
story out there. Give me what you've had in terms
of some of the pitch meanings that you've had with
some of these organizations And have they given you to
that kind of think or have they really been very
(22:10):
receptible and warm and they've given you the access, They've
given you basically the permission and the blessing to go
as far as you need to go with the story.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Yeah, I mean I have, you know, largely gotten the
permission and blessing. And I think the reason why is
because you're not leading with topic. You're leading with the story.
You know, if you say I'm going to do I
want to do something on abortion rates. Let's say that's
a topic, abortion rates. What is the specific story that
(22:40):
you're going to tell if you can find a good story.
I think a lot of publishers are willing to make
something regardless of the topic, as long as the story
is compelling. And so I think that's a big distinction
for people as they go through this journey of pitching.
You know, you can't just go to a company and say, hey,
I'd really like the something about X. Like okay, well,
(23:02):
what is the story that you're trying to tell? Bind me,
who are the characters, what are the stakes? You need
those specifics before you ever walk into a pitch meeting.
I'm actually teaching I'm an online course in September with
the Association of Independence and Radio called how to Pitch
your podcasts to executives and get it made. So I'm
going to go into it a lot there. You know,
(23:23):
one of my big things is like, if you're just
walking into a pitch meeting with like a vague outline
and being like I would talk to this person if
I got a green light, You're doing it wrong. When
I pitch a show, I have already contacted who the
people who are going to be my main characters. I
have gotten by in from them, access to them. I
(23:44):
have multiple characters. I have developed an episode outline of
how I imagine the story, the specific story unfolding over several episodes.
I have supplemental materials of research. I have, you know,
documents making the case for why the story should be
told right now. So I think that the topic is
(24:04):
not necessarily you know, you know, murder is controversial to
you know, just because of things on abortion, right, Like,
you know, I think it doesn't really matter as long
as you have a good story in the story. I've
found a pill plot of anarchist punks challenging the government
and battling you know, you know, violent extremists in this
literally in the streets. That was a good story and
(24:26):
so I was able to get by from that. And
I think that's the key to you know, whether you're
pitching something in print or if you're for the web
or in audio. If you have a good story, you
have a good story, and people will want that story
to be told.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
So as a good point you make because for some people,
if they want to consume that story, maybe they want
to listen to it in an audiobook or be able
to read it and you know, on a nook or Kindle.
Is that something you've also looked at the fact that
you know, when you are preparing this content, do you
feel like it's also something that you could generate and
just read platform onto a print platform.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Yes and no.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
So I mean I think that I probably could have
told a shorter version of you know, something like the
pill plot for example, or even what I'm working on now.
But one of the reasons I prefer audio to other
mediums is because I think it allows you to go
really deep and get really immersive in the story. You know,
(25:25):
six or seven forty five minute episodes is going to
deliver you a lot more story than you know, a
twelve hundred word article will, or even a five thousand
word article will. For me, you know, I could have,
you know, pitched any one of these stories in a
print format, and I think I probably would have had
a good shot of you know, getting it published. But
(25:49):
I love audio, and so I wanted to tell this
these stories in audio because again I wanted to hear,
you know, the pain in someone's voice when and you know,
they were telling me that, you know, they almost had
their leg broken when they were trying to defend their
abortion clinic. That you know, when they turned on the
news one day and they saw that that clinic was
(26:11):
on TV because it had been burnt to the ground.
You know, Capturing that emotion in audio it just I
think it does so much for the story versus just
kind of reading that on the page.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Right. The other thing too, is that when you look
at the current environment of podcasting, of it's a lot
of mainstream podcasters that encompassed the top of the Spotify
and Apple charts. But you know, when I look at
what they have out there now in terms of the
programma that we have, Okay, a lot of podcast deals
are being made all across the board. Alex Cooper Call
Her Daddy just got one hundred plus million dollars per
(26:43):
year deal over all over the next three years for
her show to go over to Serious exam They're SmartLess
that went over to serious exam you have Joe Rogan
literally had that first big deal. It went over to Spotify,
among others, and you're seeing that those outlets are you know,
so they're trying to get together to the podcasting, but
they're more into the entertainment side. But when I look
(27:06):
at Apple podcasts that are top charts right now, the
Story of Noble is the most popular show now in
podcasting on Apple. The story about the investigations of the
America South, you know, in what are two thousand, two,
three hundred bodies on one property in the tiny town
of Noble, Georgia. The whole story like that something out
of Twin Peaks. But those stories still resonate. It is
(27:27):
hard to go ahead and find, you know, in the
world of podcasts that we have that are all news
and commentary, that are all these commentary shows, that are
entertainment shows and comedy podcasts, to break through the mold
and have an investigative podcast or a non fiction podcast
like this to break through the mold. Tell me about
how important that is right now, because I guess you know,
(27:48):
it's surprising on you know, when you find out who
your listeners are and how certain stories will resonate and
will become much more viral than others.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
Yeah, I mean, and I think the reason why it's
so important to you know, have these kind of documentaries
in audio right now is, I mean, our world is
really a challenging place. There are so many people out
there who have compet line stories and feel like they
(28:21):
don't have a voice or a means to tell it,
and their stories are extremely important to our society, you know,
to holding people accountable. I think the podcast a couple
of years ago in the Dark had won a Pulitzer Prize.
You know, the part the reporting that this podcast did
actually spurred a Supreme Court case, and so, you know,
(28:43):
I think the best kinds of journalism can be journalism
that changes the world, that holds people in power accountable,
that shines a light on abuse of power. I don't
care if it's done in a print medium or if
it's done in audio media medium, it can be really impactful.
So that's why I think it's important to have you know,
(29:04):
investigative reporting in audio right now, because it's another access
point and a person might be you know, mormlling to
listen to a podcast that feels like an exciting story
instead of you know, reading you know what feels like
a hard news article on you know, the New York
Times website or the Washington Post website. So you might
(29:25):
be you're probably reaching a different demographic who might also
not be thinking about these things until you present it
to them in audio.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
There's a part when it comes to the podcast as
I just mentioned. So obviously these big podcasting out lists
three your SIXM you know, and then that you give
mentioned Amazon that owns Wondery you have, you know, ieart Radio,
our Media, also all the podcasts games. Spotify also in
the podcast game, putting a lot of money now on
the podcast creation, more content creation than ever. Just it
(29:54):
seems like idea where you say, to where Netflix with
this model seria six ms trying to go the way
of Spotify, trying to creating this all in one audio platform.
But one of the things that I always look at
is that you know, is the way they want to
make their money put it behind subscription models. So like
say with Apple podcast, they now have the subscription model
where you know, serious xem wants to put a load
of their original content behind a paywall fine ninety nine
(30:15):
a month. On top of what they're paying for everybody
else they're using for serious xps, So again the extra
add on buy. The other thing too is that, you know,
while they're putting the money in the content, would there
be a risk that certain podcasts like yours or theirs
are gonna have giving you that staffing, the resources you
have to create these bigger programs if they're going to
(30:36):
try to offset some of the costs by using AI
on automation for voiceover work or for script writing or
things like that. You know, are those some of the
things you look at that you started to see extorting
to make its way, you know, raise its head into
the podcasting houses you've been in. Is that something you
think might become more of a norm coming up in
(30:58):
the future.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
So, for a couple of reasons, you know, podcast listeners
like to connect with the host.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
I don't foresee listeners really gravitating towards an AI voice,
even if that AI voice can sound like an authentic human.
One of the reasons why NPR I think a recent
survey found that like their podcasts are among the most
trusted to date, and that's because they trust the voices
(31:29):
that are telling them information. So I don't think that's
going to happen. I also have noticed that there's been
a fairly big unionization push UH in the audio industry specifically,
and who have been you know, organizing with groups like
the Writer's Guild of America, and so I think that
that's also going to protect against the use of AI
(31:52):
in podcasting as well. You know, I think that probably
in the future we'll all be touched in some way
by AI. I don't know what that looks like right now.
For podcasting, I haven't seen you know, AI employed. At
least in the places that I have worked, there has been,
you know, a desire to work with real humans in
(32:15):
terms of you know, one of the reasons why I
think companies use AI is it's to cut coths, right.
I think that, you know, unfortunately, the audio industry based
some really huge layoffs last year. I was laid off
from Sony in July of twenty twenty three, right after
the pillplot launched. They eliminated their entire in house creative department.
(32:38):
And then I started reporting immediately and as an independent
journalist and pitched my show to Wondery. I think that
that's going to be the model going forward to save
costs where you know, independent journalists are pursuing their own
stories and then you know, they pitch it to a company,
they get funding to help get it made. And that's
(32:59):
a way that companies won't have to you know, keep
people on staff, but also avoid using AI I think
as well, because their costs are already low as it
relates to you know, staffing costs.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Basically.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
You know, you made an excellent point when you talk
about unionization because you know it was on a broadcasters podcast.
I actually reported about WGA East creating the iHeart Podcast
Network union. So one hundred members joining that union right
now and having their first collective bargaining agreement set in play.
Now when you have been in some of these other
podcasting outlets, is that something that you know, do you
(33:35):
feel like there's getting to a point where some of
these outlets, because of where they're working with and you know,
the conditions you're in, do you think like unionization is
going to be more of somebody that's going to grow
and continue to expand to other podcasting outlets. Do you
think there's gonna be someday maybe saying in a decade
where all these major podcasters are going to be unionized.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
Yeah, I think unionization is going to continue to grow.
I mean, I think it was just within the last
week that Cricket Media, which makes you know, Patza of
America and other shows, they just announced that the union
of you know, producers and the people actually making the
shows there had you know, come to terms with the
(34:19):
company management that they had you know, gotten a floor
for salaries, they had gotten you know, really great package
for paid time off, really great parental lead program. And
I feel like, honestly, like every you know, two months,
I'm seeing a new podcast production house unionize. So I
(34:39):
do think that that's going to be a trend that
will continue. I think that you know, podcasters who are
working with production houses add staff. You know, they are
creative professionals. It's no surprise to me that they would
want to try to work at a place that has
some union protection. I think that this will continue to
(35:00):
be a trend. You know. I when I was at
Slate on staff, we were organized under the Writer's Guild
of America East. And I still, even though I'm not
you know, an employee of any company at the moment,
I still am paying my dues as a WGA member.
So yeah, I think that's gonna be a trend that
we continue to see. I think we saw, you know,
(35:22):
the huge protest. I'm part of STAG, I'm part of
w GA, part of you know, the Actors Guild, the
Directors Guild, and so I think creative professionals everywhere are
trying to collectively organize to make sure things like AI
don't take their jobs eventually. So I do think that
that'll continue in audio and podcasting as well.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
So that sounds a good question too. So I don't
know if you have participated in New York there with
the writers and actors strike that did a cap in
last year, you know, for what nine months, ten months
whatever it was. The one thing was I guess when
you look at what the actors and writers were going for,
which obviously they were justified they had to hold out
to the studios to make sure they got what they
(36:03):
need in terms of AI, in terms of the views.
I totally understand and justified the fact they had it
going hold this time and make sure they got as
much as they could they could when they got to
the table and really stress the big media companies out
that I totally agree with that. I supported them one
hundred percent. But now with podcasting the same thing here
where like you said, Crookermedia, they even walked out for
(36:24):
a while to try to go and make sure that
their dudes got met when it came to minimum guaranteed salary,
days paid off, you know, benefits across the board. And
I just want to know, did you get the chance
to you partake in any of the pickets at all?
And what you see right now in terms of WGA
as an entity coming in to becoming the bargaining you
(36:48):
know union for employees like yourself.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Yeah, I mean I did participate in some of the
marches last summer. I lived literally half a pluck away
from Silver Cup Studios here at Queen's which is a
large you know film studio, and so I saw them
protesting outside of there, and so I said, hey, let
me walk over your sign ticket sign. Yeah. I was like, oh,
(37:15):
I didn't even know that you guys were doing this today,
but I've.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Just been out for a walk, so cool. So yeah,
I mean I.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
Did participate in that sense. And yeah, I just believe
that also coming off last year where there were so
many layoffs, I think that you know, the people that
were able to survive at their companies, probably got nervous
and were like, oh man, we should probably unionize because
you know, you know, you being in a union doesn't
(37:44):
fully insulate you obviously from layoffs, but it could definitely help.
And so I do believe that you know, more and more,
you know, producers, editors, storytellers at podcast production houses are
going to try already unionize. I know that there's many
that already exist, and I have no doubt that that's
(38:06):
not going to slow down.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
But now the one thing of competition where radio doesn't
have this anymore, unfortunately, because there's not enough grassroots radio
outlets to compete or to have a presence against the
larger radio companies. But you know, the reason why radio
has gone the way it is and why podcasting has
taken over is because of some of the mistakes they've made. Again,
the major radio companies laden with debt. You know, they
(38:28):
have private equity holding on to these companies and basically
just picking off the bones like vultures. I really feel
like it's vulture capital has really ruined the industry there.
That's why there's so many people that have come in.
They're great talent and radio opening of the podcasting. But
the other thing two is that when you have a
difference between the mainstream podcasts that like like the Wonderies
and the Crooked media is and the serious XM spotifies
(38:51):
at all that are distributing all this content out the
one thing is there is all these grassroots podcasts thousands
upon thousands right now, hundreds of thousands a matter of fact,
that are still out there competing against you know, all
these other shows out there. So when you look at that,
do you ever kind of look back and you know,
behind your shoulder and say, we had to stay on
our game, because anybody can come into the world to
(39:12):
work and become viral sensation, and then all of a sudden,
you know, we have new people that can always compete.
There's a competition with other grassroots to always keep in
mind to. And also it creates the idea for you know,
since two thousand and eight or even before, a lot
of people know now that it's much easier than ever
to start a podcast. So for those that might want
(39:32):
to give the podcast industry start their own, what advice
would you give them and what should they look at
when they look at the environment.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
And my main piece of advice would be to please
get a good mic.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
There's plenty and.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
There's so many podcasts out there that it sounds horrible.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Uh A great technical standpoint.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
Yeah, And I mean I think that you know, grassroots podcasts,
there are various collectives that those people can join. Like
you know, I mentioned the Association of Independence and Radio earlier,
that's a great organization to join. There are plenty of
collectives that you can join to seek out support. You know,
(40:14):
Radiotopia is I think has a really interesting business model
where it's functioning more like a co op now where
you know, the people that are making the podcast own
a stake in the company and so and you know,
if you are a grassroots podcaster, I mean, it's a
great you know, get into the medium, hone your skills,
(40:36):
perfect your skills, and you know, tell those stories and
you can then.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
You know, pitch it to a big company.
Speaker 3 (40:44):
I think, I think that we actually are in a
very unique moment because a lot of these big companies
in the last year have laid off all of these
people their in house creative talent. But they still want
to and need to make podcasts. They need stories, but
they no longer have people on staff bringing them to
the greed. So it is, you know, for a grassroots person,
(41:07):
for an independent podcaster, it is actually a really good
time to try to get yourself in front of one
of these big companies with a story and say, I
know you're looking for content.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
I got it, you know, take me up on it.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
So I would say, yeah, keep creating, because you know,
when I first started hutting podcasting, I didn't know what
I was doing, and now you know, ten years later, I,
you know, just signed a deal with one of the
biggest podcast publishers in the world. I definitely wasn't at
that level when I started, but I worked my way
there because I loved the medium and I wanted to
(41:44):
keep doing it. And so I would encourage anybody that
feels passionately about audio storytelling to stick with it. You know,
there's gonna be ups and downs, but like you can
do it, so yeah, and get a good mic.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Absolutely, I one hundred and fifty percent agree with the micolute.
So again, TJ. Rafael audio journalists, reporter, producer, host. Before
we go to wrap things up, I want to go
and direct people to your website because while you're getting
ready to go and get things started with the Wondering
podcast that's gonna be upcoming, which we will be with
Baby Breath waiting to goin to hear somewhere down the
line early twenty twenty five. You do have your website
(42:17):
TJ Rafael dot com TJ R A P H A E. L.
Think of Sally Jesse Rafael. You know that name there
you go direct last turn, So yeah, TJ Rafael by
the way, no relation, uh, tj rafael dot com. You
offer you the work when it comes to enterprise of
investigative reporting on our hosting a voiceover series, development show running,
(42:37):
scriptwriting and editing, producing a tape syncs so much more
so for people that want to go ahead reach out
to you, let them know what they should go and do.
If they're gonna come to your website at possibly go
work with you.
Speaker 3 (42:48):
Yeah, feel free to send me a message through my website.
You can also reach me on LinkedIn or Twitter. And yeah,
you know, I make my own stories, but I am
available as a journalist for hire. So you know, if
you want to create something together, if you have a
tip that you need help sussing out, you need somebody
to kick the tires on it. I am definitely down
(43:11):
to collaborate, so you can reach me your my website
and also see my recent work. And yeah, if you
follow me on social media you'll see when my new
shows come up. So yeah, thank you so much for
hey for having me. This has been really fun. I
love talking shop and yeah, it's been great to be here.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Oh oh, thank you so much. The pleasure has been
online and seriously, the connection to LinkedIn that's how we met, Mike.
I was still surprised. I just out of a whim,
I just saw you there and I was like, it's
just see what happens. And I'm so happy that you
decided to come on and do the show. Thank you
so much for being on. This was really great and
continued best success for you in yours.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Thanks, have a great day, all.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Right, Thank you folks, and once again there we go
tj Raphael dot com. Make sure to go ahead and
look at all the work that she's doing and also
keep it out of that podcast coming up through one
And for all your listeners, thanks for listening. It's always
King of Podcasts dot coms where you find all my
content and we'll talk to you next time.
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