Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey there, I am so glad that you're here.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm Priscilla. Welcome to the chat. This is the place
where we just kind of, you know, chat about things
in our lives, things that matter. Today is an important
conversation because we're going to be talking about something that
a lot of people just kind of hold inside, hold
in their hearts and in their own minds, and they
don't really talk about it. They're not really open and
honest about the way they're feeling. We're gonna talk about grief.
What do you do when you really have experienced a
(00:28):
traumatic loss, one that has left a hole in your heart,
and you're trying to figure out how you're going to
recover from that and move forward in health and wholeness.
We're going to talk to a couple of people today
whose stories really will touch your heart, and I have
a feeling there are going to be so many of
you that are able to relate specifically to what they say,
So you're gonna want to stay tuned. Grab a fresh
(00:48):
cup of coffee or whatever your favorite drink is, pull
up a chair, and let's chat.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
I'm so glad that you're here.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
I'm Priscilla, and we're gonna have a great conversation today,
one that I think is so important. In fact, we've
already been having this conversation. This is part two of
a talk that we've been having that's really important, and
you need to go view episode one if you have not,
because we've been talking about grief and really how it
can cripple you and keep you from moving forward when
you've had a traumatic loss in your life. And we're
(01:37):
going to keep that conversation going today. We have been
talking to Denise Madison. Would you please welcome her again
to our program. She has quite a little story and
I want you to just tell us, just in a nutshell,
what we've already talked about in episode one.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Just tell us what happened, what the loss was.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
Absolutely, my husband was murdered. And so it's five, five children,
and I just kind of going through and allowing the
Lord to speak to us through that tragedy.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yeah, and so five children and one on the way
and one on the way. Well on the way.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
You found out about this baby two weeks after you
buried your husband.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Right, that's correct?
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Yeah, Yeah, And speaking of babies, I have a sweet
friend with me.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Her name is Angie Smith.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
You might be already familiar with her, but would you
please help me to welcome.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Angie Smith to the program as well. I'm so glad
you're here, Angie.
Speaker 5 (02:28):
I'm honored to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yes, and you have experienced a little bit of a
loss in your life, like a big loss in your
life as well?
Speaker 1 (02:35):
How long ago? First of all, tell me how long
it's been now.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
It's funny to say I just because people ask, and
then all of a sudden you'll say a number and
you're like, has it been that long?
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (02:43):
She would have turned seven last month, Audrey would have
been seven. It feels so yeah, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Tell us tell us about that journey you walked, what happened?
Speaker 1 (02:53):
And how are you doing today?
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Well?
Speaker 5 (02:55):
Yeah, And it's so it's a neat thing to have
because I do feel like we're sort of in in
lots of ways at different ends of the spectrum. So
it's both for the loss and the time and the way,
but a lot of our questions are still the same
about who God is. And so I'm grateful to be
able to sit with you, and I so enjoyed listening
to you and had to redo my makeup right before
I came out such a blessing. So yes, it was
(03:19):
a very different loss. But my husband and I already
had three daughters and we were expecting our fourth, and
it's just one of those like went into an ultrasound
and everyone was like, are you finally having a boy?
I mean, that was the only thing, you know. We
didn't have any reason to believe anything was wrong, and
I was about twenty weeks along, and right away it
was just I could tell from the technician's face something
(03:39):
is really wrong. And so, to make a long story short,
we found out that Audrey had several conditions that made
her what they called incompatible with life, which they are
just to have an abortion. The following day. They thought
the best thing was to terminate, and we just really
prayed about it and felt like the Lord wanted us
to carry her, and so we did and as long
(04:01):
as we could, and when I delivered her on April seventh,
two thousand and eight, she live for about two and
a half hours, so we got to hold her and
spend time with her, and even all during the pregnancy,
the girls were really already then thinking of her as
a sister, and it made me think of that when
you were talking about being pregnant, that her children are
(04:21):
seeing this, and it's just it's amazing the children's comprehension
of what is coming. And so even from very early on,
they were anticipating a sister and grieved along with us
when we lost her.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
And you're right, there is a spectrum here that is
represented by the two of you.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
One of you is lost an adult, a spouse, and
the other of you a child. And to help us
sort of wade through these waters of grief and then
also try to figure out some practical steps for wherever
you may be on that spectrum of walking out of it,
is a counselor who's going to just really dig in
deep and help us to get some question answered, questions answered.
So would you guys please help me to welcome him.
(04:56):
He's doctor David Wally.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Help me to welcome the dayl You know, I want
to ask you a little bit about this spectrum.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Is the you know, I would assume that grief is grief,
but is there a difference in the way you grieve
or the way you feel about the loss when it
is a child versus a spouse or an adult.
Speaker 6 (05:20):
Absolutely, And it's interesting listening to these two ladies at
different points along the way. Even the way they tell
their stories, you can tell they're in two very different places. Yes,
it's one was a husband, one was a child, But
the timing in their case is what seems so strikingly different.
(05:40):
You can tell, here is a story where she's claiming strength,
here's a story where she's lived the strength through many years,
and that spectrum will become her reality. But it's going
to take a while.
Speaker 5 (05:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Yeah. Do you think doctor, that.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Time heals or is it what you do with the
time that will determine whether or not you heal.
Speaker 6 (06:09):
That's a really interesting question. I think that God uses
time to heal us. But I think that one of
the things that fascinates me most about grief is that
grief is often described as a lot of emotions, and
sometimes we get bogged down in one of those emotions.
(06:30):
We get angry, we get hurt, we're afraid, we're confused.
And if we wrestle with those emotions with God, rather
than get stuck in those emotions, what happens is we
move from our human temporal perspective to God's perspective, and
that's where the healing really happens. But that does require
(06:51):
some time. That wrestling requires some time. So I do
think that time is part of the process. But God time,
it's properties and he gives us the time to heal.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Yep, Angie.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
I want to know what the wrestling look like, and
I mean yeah, I mean in those two hours that
you were holding this child in your arms, knowing that
you had limited time, what did that literally look like
for you and your husband? And then in the days following,
how were you able to sort of go through that
(07:25):
wrestling match with God and sort of work your way
out of it instead of getting stuck in it.
Speaker 5 (07:30):
The hours that we had her were so peaceful. And
I say that I am the I'm not a courageous person.
I'm overly emotional, but I feel like the Lord gave
us that day. So the wrestling was sort of the
before it was, you know, and I you do a
better job of describing the steps, But there was this
(07:51):
sort of like when you're coming to terms with what's happening.
There's a grief that happens there in a wrestling. And
I can remember being pregnant and a few days after
her die nosis, I was at a baby shower for
one of my dear friends, and I remember us hugging
on the way out, in our stomachs, pushing up against
each other, and you know, the whole time we'd been
(08:12):
praying for her to have a healthy baby. But everyone
in the room knew what was going on with me,
and so everyone just sort of started crying because it
was like, how do you do how do we.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Do this right?
Speaker 5 (08:21):
And so that day on the way home from that,
I'll just never forget, And it was raining, and I
was driving home and I remember literally screaming at the
top of my lungs and pounding on my steering wheel
and saying, you can fix this, fix this, you know.
So there was that wrestling yeah, which is the there's
still time. You know. I always think of the story
(08:42):
of Lazarus when I think of this, because you know,
there comes that point after he's dead and they were like,
but he's sick. Can you come right now? He's sick, Like,
there's still yeah, and so and then again even after
so it was like while we had her, we had her,
then after it was a different wrestling of now how
do we deal with that? And so I loved something
(09:05):
that you said, and I feel like that's when My
experience too, is that over and over again, the Lord
has had to say to me, I am not intimidated
by your emotions. So you're mad, you're devastated, I'm God.
So I actually know that. Okay, like you can. You
can make up a pretty prayer and say it to
me and I still know your heart. So how about
(09:26):
you just scream if you need to in the car,
but you just bring it to my feet. Can we
just do that?
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Just include me in authenticity?
Speaker 5 (09:34):
Yeah? And I need I needed that, Like I think
there's that part of us that wants to and I'm
sure we've all struggled with that. You know, I talked
to God and there's a part of me that wants
to edit what I'm saying, and you know, and then
I feel like the Lord really used that wrestling before
and after to sort of say, that's not what I've
asked of you. I asked you to include me in it.
But you're human and you're wrapped in flesh and you're
going to experience these things.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
So yeah, what do you think would be the first
step if someone were sitting on your couch, which these
ladies are right, we all are.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
We're sitting on your couch.
Speaker 6 (10:06):
This is my couch.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
It is and in fact, this is your show. We
need you to talk to us.
Speaker 5 (10:12):
We're just going to relax for the rest. That's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
I want to know what would be if you gave
someone the first step to getting out of the pit
of grief that could cripple them.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
What would be sort of the first thing? Do this?
Starting today?
Speaker 6 (10:29):
I usually ask people to tell me their story. Just
tell me the story, like you had, Denise, to tell
me the story. I think a lot of people and
I hear this many many times when a person has lost,
particularly a child. They're afraid people are going to forget
the child. And so I asked them to tell me
(10:49):
the story, because it's a way of imprinting that story
in their brain, as if it's not already imprinted, but
it's passing it along to another person. And I tell
them I'm going to carry that story with you. So
I ask them to tell the story. I want to
hear the story. I want to know about this. I
want to know about the experience.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Okay, now, let me ask a question with that in mine,
Because I think part of the hard part about being
in relationship with someone who has had a loss in
your life. If you're friends with that person, you're not
exactly sure. If you're supposed to ask them about it,
you're not exactly sure. You're kind of walking on eggshells.
So as a friend of someone who's experiencing this, would
you suggest that it is kind of out on the
(11:29):
floor in conversation that we do let them know we're
a safe place to tell the story again and again
if they need to, or are we supposed to just
wait until they want to open up about that.
Speaker 6 (11:41):
I think inviting is always a proper thing to do.
They're always the kinds of two ways of communicating, and
there are lots of things we hear about communicating, but
they're two ways, demanding and inviting. And I don't ever
want to demand that somebody tell me their story. That
could be interfearing in their privacy. But inviting them to
(12:02):
tell me their story, I always want them to feel
free to tell me their story, even if they need
to tell me again. That's part of the process for
them until they don't need to tell it anymore for
a while, and we may go and work on some
other things, and then they come back and they need
to tell me the story again. So I do think
that's true. There are people. Because of my position in
(12:25):
the office, I probably have more freedom to ask people
to tell me their story. People I don't know, but
they've walked in with a kind of trust. But on
the street I might not ask those people to tell
me their story because I haven't earned the right. It's
the invasion of that kind of privacy. But if I
(12:45):
could just add this one other thing part of telling
the story, and this is a very uncomfortable way to
phrase this, I've never figured out another way. We have
pall bearers. It's not something we do a lot at
funerals anymore. Don't really carry the casket, but bearing the
pall is part of that experience, is feeling the weight
(13:09):
of the lifelessness. Wow, And telling the story is a
way of bearing the paull And so I become a
pallbearer with them. I carry the feeling of the weight
of the of what's missing. The person that used to
be here is not here anymore. I want to carry
that with you.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Isn't that an interesting way to look at that? And
I think, really overall, that's sort of what friendship should be.
It should be us bearing one another way. Yeah, yeah,
and kind of helping them with that journey. We're going
to talk more about how we can do that and
about you know, I'm very interested to talk to these
ladies about some of the things people said or did
(13:46):
when they were in the midst of that pain that
were not wise things to do or say.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
I think that could help all of us to just
be able.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
To be responsible and be helpful in the circumstances and relationships.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
So we'll be right back in just a few minutes.
Stay tuned.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
If you're feeling discouraged and defeated, if you're a bit overwhelmed,
or maybe even feeling undone, if you're wondering whether or
not your future has any hope of victory, then listen.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
This Bible study is for you. Strongholds are torn down
by the.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
Word of God.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Fortresses are dismantled by the word of God.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
When you place faith in Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
The righteousness of Christ is credited to your spiritual bank account.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
That you are the righteousness of God.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
In Christ, Jesus, I invite you to join me for
a lesson in putting on the full.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Armor of God.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Our lives are going to be changed yours and mine,
because we're going to learn because we've got the victory
in Jesus.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Nay.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Well, hey there, welcome back.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
We are. We are doing some healing today on the
program and talking about how you can make sure that
you're not stuck in a place of grief, no matter
why that grief is coming to your life.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
We've talked to.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Three incredible people, two of which have experienced some loss
in their lives and they've been kind enough to share
their story with us. And I wanna know from you
two ladies, both of you. I wanna know if you
went through a phase of being and you've kind of
already described this a little bit, but being plain old,
flat out mad, just straight up mad at God, mad
(15:40):
at the situation, how were you able to get a
little softening back in your heart after just being angry?
Speaker 5 (15:49):
Gotta go? Do you have any thoughts? Okay, I was
gonna say it sort of goes back to what I
said before, but that I was so I sort of
felt like I needed to hit that, and I a
lot of good came from reading things like psalms, where
you're like, there's emotion in this and you're reading people
(16:10):
who are angry, you know, and they're like, why is
this happening? And so for me, I finally realized, oh, okay,
I can feel this. I can't get stuck here, but
it's okay for me to feel this, and again just
to own it for what it was. To say, I
think the more time I spent trying to act like
I wasn't angry, it would pile up. And then finally
when I was like, no, I'm I'm pretty upset. Yeah,
(16:33):
and I'm and I'm med at you God, yeah, like
and I and I don't know what to do with that,
there was something healthy that came in a chain, a
shift in my relationship with him in the way that
I saw him as a father. And So I don't
know about you. Have you had moments like that yet?
It's early for you, So I don't know what I have.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
I have one moment in particular kind of stands out
had by far to this point, the darkest day, And
what kind of struck me was that God asked something
extremely hard of both of us that night, and I
kind of got to a place where I felt like
he asked the harder thing of me and I'm just
(17:14):
being very frank and ancest right now, because I felt like,
you know, my husband is now face to face with Jesus,
you know, but I'm here and I am aching, and
I kind of got a little bit of like, Lord,
I am suffering and my husband is face to face
with you, and you know, this is a hard thing.
And when people come and say to me, oh, I'm
just you know, I'm so blessed by your story and
(17:37):
it's just really touched me. And I would say, Lord, why,
why is my pain? I'm glad for them, that's fantastic,
But I'm the one that lives this ache. Our children,
his parents were the ones that are living with this ache.
And what happened as a result of that, Like I said,
it was a day, a true day of just being
in despair and agony and felt, you know, forshaken, to
(17:59):
be honest with you, and I felt like the next
day God helped me to see something, and that was
that He gave me that as a gift, my experiencing that,
so that I might be able to partake in the
suffering of Christ, so that.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
I could be more like him.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
And for me, I can tell you that the second day,
the one day was so very dark. But the day
that God said that was my gift to you so
that you might understand a little bit better the suffering
that Christ endured on your behalf.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
I think that there is a lot of freedom, and
listening to you guys talk, I'm just thinking about the
freedom that comes over someone when they realized that asking
the why question is not sin. It's not like you're
on the wrong side of the relationship with God just
because you want to know why and most of the
time we're not going to get an answer. But why, David,
would you say it is important to know you're free
(18:54):
to go to God authentically, upset and all and ask
that why question, because I think.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
A lot of people don't why.
Speaker 6 (19:01):
Is it important to be able to ask why?
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Yeah, you don't like not knowing?
Speaker 6 (19:07):
Yeah, I mean that sounds pretty simple, but we don't
like not knowing. And what you mentioned earlier, Angie, you
said there was this moment where you said you can
fix this, and that's what anger demands. Anger says something
has to happen, and that's when we go to God
and say why. And He doesn't necessarily come back and
(19:29):
tell us why.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
And one of the things that.
Speaker 6 (19:32):
Starts happening is he starts transforming us. I think that
one of the things that we get caught up in
in grief is so what do we do? What are
the steps? When really God is doing stuff in us
in the grieving process that we're not aware of, that
we're not participants in. He is constantly healing us in
(19:53):
the grief process without us doing anything.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
So when is grieving? This is an interesting thought. The
process is important, That's what you've just said.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
When do you know you've crossed the line into an
unhealthy state of grieving when it's no longer a healthy,
beneficial process but it is smothering you and you're not
moving forward. How does someone know when they've crossed that boundary.
Speaker 6 (20:18):
That's a great question. One of the things I think
you have to look at is time and relationships. I
usually tell people when a significant loss has happened, you've
lost a daughter, you've lost a husband. It's going to
take at least a year. You have to go through
the anniversaries. This is the day that we got married,
(20:39):
this is the birthday, first birthday without him. Father's Day
is coming up, and you have to go through the
anniversary of the event where he lost his life. All
of those events, you have to go through those, and
then it's not the first time again, you kind of wonder,
am I going to make it through the first Christmas?
(21:01):
So you begin to look at time. So time is
a factor there. Another thing is am I am I
destroying other relationships around me because I'm not allowing those
relationships to help me be pointed to God? Am I
not allowing those relationships to comfort me? Am I not
allowing those relationships to be healing in my life? Am
(21:24):
I being destructive towards them? So I like to look
at time, and I like to look at the relationships
around them. And when anger turns to bitterness, that's another.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
How do you detect that?
Speaker 6 (21:36):
How do you detect?
Speaker 1 (21:37):
How do you detect when anger has become bitterness?
Speaker 6 (21:40):
When bitterness is anger tends to be more acute. I
am angry with you because you did this. Bitterness is
my outlook at the world is out right, everything is bad.
It's not going to be good. It's just going to
be bad from.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
Here on out.
Speaker 6 (21:59):
And that sometimes gets pointed at somebody, but most of
the time it's just generalized.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
So if you're just a mean person, right, then you
know that that anger has taken root and it's become
a little bit of bitterness.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Okay, have saved us a lot of time.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
If you're mean, if you're angry and upset. Okay, So
I want to know what are the worst things that
some people did. They thought they were being helpful, they
thought they were being kind, they thought they were.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Saying something that should have been a blessing in your life.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
But you just really wanted to smack them upside their head.
You did smack people, yes, But I pos tell us
help us because people that are friends of folks that
are really going through some tough stuff. You know, you're
really kind of walking on edgels because you're not quite
sure what.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
To say or what to do or not do. So
could you tell us what just didn't work for you?
And then what did?
Speaker 5 (22:57):
Yeah? Okay, we talk a little bit about this before
we even came out here, because it's funny how I
do think most of the time the heart is to help.
I mean, their motive is not wrong. They want absolutely
and listen, grief is hard, and so stepping into someone
else's grief is super uncomfortable, and so they want to
(23:19):
make you feel better. But they also want to make
themselves feel better. I mean, they just want to feel
like they did something that fixed you and fixed them.
And so instead of like I just want to sit
in this grief with you and wrestle with it, people
will try to you know, I mean, it totally makes sense.
So some of the things that I heard frequently were
that God needed another angel in heaven. I really struggled
(23:41):
with that. I've talked to a lot of people who've
heard that children, and that's one that I hear a
lot that doesn't work for you. No, And actually it doesn't.
It doesn't work for anything theologically, So it's not just me,
it's actually just not for God.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Right.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (23:54):
So the other one that doesn't really work for God
that I heard a lot was Satan took your baby.
You heard that, Oh oh, I hear it all the time,
all the time.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
So it was Mormonica.
Speaker 5 (24:06):
Basically he won. This wasn't God. God wouldn't do that
to you, because you know, again, in people's brains, it's
like I need to believe that God is good and
Satan is evil, and so something bad happens.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
So it's easier to compartmentalize word.
Speaker 5 (24:17):
And I've put that on him, and so you know,
we were talking about, like, how do you respond to that?
And I it's hard, and you wrestle with it because
sometimes there are people who are coming to you and
saying I lost my baby. But I know that Satan
took I knew that this wasn't God, and it's hard
to wrestle through that. But theologically, at the end of
the day, you're like, how do you find hope in
a world where you feel like Satan can trump God?
(24:38):
That is not this isn't healthy, it's not biblically accurate.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
So got that right?
Speaker 5 (24:41):
Did he want Did God want this?
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Noah?
Speaker 5 (24:45):
Did he grieve with me? Yes? That night in a
hospital room when I handed my daughter to a nurse
and watched her walk out of the room and I'm
pounding on every single button wanting to get her back,
And the only thing I could say it was like,
you have to be with him because I've nothing else.
I believe he grieved that loss with me. So, no,
(25:06):
he didn't want it, but ultimately he's got control. I
only find peace knowing he had the final say. I
don't know why. I don't know why, but but I
can rest in that and so that that was one
of the comments that that I heard a lot, and
then a lot of times I heard for me because
it was a child, one that you know is really common. Well,
you have three other healthy, beautiful children, you know. And
(25:28):
again it's a the effort. The effort is like, let's
look on the.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Boulden, better for them just to be quiet.
Speaker 5 (25:34):
But people don't. They don't want to be.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
They feel like they have to fill the silence with
something instead of just being there.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Right.
Speaker 5 (25:40):
And I will say the month after Audrey died, and
people who followed my story know that my nephew died
the next month at ten weeks of age of SIDS,
and so they're they're buried together. My sister in law
was holding her newborn healthy child and singing over Audrey
as she was buried, and I remember us looking at
each other and thinking, why does God choose, you know,
(26:02):
And of course we had no idea. So a month later,
now I am on the other side, and I just
remember driving to Georgia and sitting in front of her
and realizing.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Angie, I didn't know that. I didn't know that close
time in there with those things.
Speaker 5 (26:15):
Yeah, And so I get being on the other side
because my tendency, even having just gone through it, was
to fill the silence. So again I really do. But
you know, you read about Job and his friends and
it says at one point and they came and sat
with him in his sorrow. Yeah, it's like sometimes that's
awkward and just coming up with answers. It's just sitting.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Well, I think that's a freeing comment for a lot
of us that we just need to know that sitting
is just good. Just sit there and wait, wait for
the Sometimes you're sitting there is the invitation.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
They need to know.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
You're this safe place where they can open up and
talk about what's on their heart. What about for you
anything people did that just or are doing still because
it's only been four months, is there anything that just
I mean, nick greats on your nerves when you hear
it or see it done.
Speaker 4 (27:00):
Absolutely so a few that I'll that I'll mention one
of the things. And again, David, you might say that
this is something that that that time will change, But
I really am not interested in anyone talking to me
about ten years from now. So when someone says you'll
see ten years from now, you know you're the smiles
on the faces and when you know when the babies. No, no,
(27:24):
there's no there's no amount of time that's going to
make the loss. Okay, Now, do I believe that it's
true that I will learn to live with the ache
and I will learn I will learn to have strength,
you know, day by day. Absolutely, and I believe that's true.
And Angie's sitting here and that's I mean, that's proof
that that's that that's the case.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
However, but when someone says ten years from now, you'll
get it that what that communicates is get over it all.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Sure that commun let's get on with your mind.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
The loss isn't isn't going to go away? Yeah, it
absolutely isn't. So I see, I think that's that's a
really big one. And uh, I think I think one
of the others is I think just kind of in general,
when when when people will say to me, and this
is very unique to our situation, but when they'll say, yeah,
(28:14):
but yeah, but you have a baby, it's similar to
what you're saying about the three children. Yeah but you
have a baby, but you have a piece of Corey,
but you have you know, every time you see your
children's faces, it's again, it's it's the same, it's along
the same line. It doesn't replace, it doesn't replace the loss,
it doesn't replace change things. So I am completely in
(28:35):
agreement with you just sitting with just sitting with you
and letting you cry and letting you just kind of be.
And I will tell you one of the things that
I appreciate. And it's kind of to your point about acknowledging.
I had a friend. So yesterday was my birthday, and
oh thank you, but I had a friend, and you know,
I had lots of people that were there, but one
(28:56):
person just.
Speaker 5 (28:57):
Came up to me and sat right next to me.
Speaker 4 (28:59):
She put her hand on my knee and she said,
I am so blessed to be here and to celebrate
your birthday. But I just want you to know I'm
sorry that Corey is not Abso it meant I mean,
it meant the world to me.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
So this is what that sounds like to me.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Acknowledging the loss and not trying to minimize the loss
is the key to being appropriate.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
With someone who has experiences. Does that Does that sound
about right?
Speaker 5 (29:24):
Absolutely? Because I think the other side of it is
and you'll, I think as you get get people like again,
it's the eggshells thing. For me. It was always more
comfortable when they would bring it up, you know, and
a lot of them day. Why do I say to
my friend, I'm going to go to the hospital. She's lost,
and I'm like, ask her what the baby's fingers look like?
Ask her what you.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Know about the baby?
Speaker 5 (29:44):
If the baby was old enough to what was his personality?
What was the people I think, in wanting to help,
will tend to like not bring it up when what
we want is the chance to what you said, to
tell her story?
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Yeah, yeah, final words for what would you share to
someone who really, really right now is trying to figure.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Out a way to get out of this. How would
you encourage that?
Speaker 6 (30:10):
I don't want this to sound tried at all. And
to your point, I really do understand the ten years
down the line. That's not a conversation I have right now.
But the restling grieving is hope, because you're fighting, grieving
is hope. And there is coming a day when people
(30:33):
who've lost will realize that God is in control. And
as the scripture says, there is no darkness in God.
God is light and in him is no dark at all.
So everything that God does is good and right, even
those things he allows. There are things in my own life.
I'm not the story here today, but there are things
(30:54):
in my life that I don't understand. But if I
can't walk out of here knowing that God is in
control and that He's good, I'm going to hang up
my sign, lock up my door, and go home, pull
the covers over my head.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
And what are we all doing? Right? That's right?
Speaker 5 (31:10):
What are we doing this door?
Speaker 6 (31:12):
But there is coming a day when those two things
will settle in our hearts and our perspective changes from
this temporal place to God's perspective.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
It's coming.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
I can't think of a better note to end on
to you.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yep, Would you guys please help me to thank them
for being here today and think that from sharing themselves
with us
Hey there, I am so glad that you're here.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm Priscilla. Welcome to the chat. This is the place
where we just kind of, you know, chat about things
in our lives, things that matter. Today is an important
conversation because we're going to be talking about something that
a lot of people just kind of hold inside, hold
in their hearts and in their own minds, and they
don't really talk about it. They're not really open and
honest about the way they're feeling. We're gonna talk about grief.
What do you do when you really have experienced a
(00:28):
traumatic loss, one that has left a hole in your heart,
and you're trying to figure out how you're going to
recover from that and move forward in health and wholeness.
We're going to talk to a couple of people today
whose stories really will touch your heart, and I have
a feeling there are going to be so many of
you that are able to relate specifically to what they say,
So you're gonna want to stay tuned. Grab a fresh
(00:48):
cup of coffee or whatever your favorite drink is, pull
up a chair, and let's chat.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
I'm so glad that you're here.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
I'm Priscilla, and we're gonna have a great conversation today,
one that I think is so important. In fact, we've
already been having this conversation. This is part two of
a talk that we've been having that's really important, and
you need to go view episode one if you have not,
because we've been talking about grief and really how it
can cripple you and keep you from moving forward when
you've had a traumatic loss in your life. And we're
(01:37):
going to keep that conversation going today. We have been
talking to Denise Madison. Would you please welcome her again
to our program. She has quite a little story and
I want you to just tell us, just in a nutshell,
what we've already talked about in episode one.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Just tell us what happened, what the loss was.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
Absolutely, my husband was murdered. And so it's five, five children,
and I just kind of going through and allowing the
Lord to speak to us through that tragedy.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yeah, and so five children and one on the way
and one on the way. Well on the way.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
You found out about this baby two weeks after you
buried your husband.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Right, that's correct?
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Yeah, Yeah, And speaking of babies, I have a sweet
friend with me.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Her name is Angie Smith.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
You might be already familiar with her, but would you
please help me to welcome.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Angie Smith to the program as well. I'm so glad
you're here, Angie.
Speaker 5 (02:28):
I'm honored to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yes, and you have experienced a little bit of a
loss in your life, like a big loss in your
life as well?
Speaker 1 (02:35):
How long ago? First of all, tell me how long
it's been now.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
It's funny to say I just because people ask, and
then all of a sudden you'll say a number and
you're like, has it been that long?
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (02:43):
She would have turned seven last month, Audrey would have
been seven. It feels so yeah, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Tell us tell us about that journey you walked, what happened?
Speaker 1 (02:53):
And how are you doing today?
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Well?
Speaker 5 (02:55):
Yeah, And it's so it's a neat thing to have
because I do feel like we're sort of in in
lots of ways at different ends of the spectrum. So
it's both for the loss and the time and the way,
but a lot of our questions are still the same
about who God is. And so I'm grateful to be
able to sit with you, and I so enjoyed listening
to you and had to redo my makeup right before
I came out such a blessing. So yes, it was
(03:19):
a very different loss. But my husband and I already
had three daughters and we were expecting our fourth, and
it's just one of those like went into an ultrasound
and everyone was like, are you finally having a boy?
I mean, that was the only thing, you know. We
didn't have any reason to believe anything was wrong, and
I was about twenty weeks along, and right away it
was just I could tell from the technician's face something
(03:39):
is really wrong. And so, to make a long story short,
we found out that Audrey had several conditions that made
her what they called incompatible with life, which they are
just to have an abortion. The following day. They thought
the best thing was to terminate, and we just really
prayed about it and felt like the Lord wanted us
to carry her, and so we did and as long
(04:01):
as we could, and when I delivered her on April seventh,
two thousand and eight, she live for about two and
a half hours, so we got to hold her and
spend time with her, and even all during the pregnancy,
the girls were really already then thinking of her as
a sister, and it made me think of that when
you were talking about being pregnant, that her children are
(04:21):
seeing this, and it's just it's amazing the children's comprehension
of what is coming. And so even from very early on,
they were anticipating a sister and grieved along with us
when we lost her.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
And you're right, there is a spectrum here that is
represented by the two of you.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
One of you is lost an adult, a spouse, and
the other of you a child. And to help us
sort of wade through these waters of grief and then
also try to figure out some practical steps for wherever
you may be on that spectrum of walking out of it,
is a counselor who's going to just really dig in
deep and help us to get some question answered, questions answered.
So would you guys please help me to welcome him.
(04:56):
He's doctor David Wally.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Help me to welcome the dayl You know, I want
to ask you a little bit about this spectrum.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Is the you know, I would assume that grief is grief,
but is there a difference in the way you grieve
or the way you feel about the loss when it
is a child versus a spouse or an adult.
Speaker 6 (05:20):
Absolutely, And it's interesting listening to these two ladies at
different points along the way. Even the way they tell
their stories, you can tell they're in two very different places. Yes,
it's one was a husband, one was a child, But
the timing in their case is what seems so strikingly different.
(05:40):
You can tell, here is a story where she's claiming strength,
here's a story where she's lived the strength through many years,
and that spectrum will become her reality. But it's going
to take a while.
Speaker 5 (05:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Yeah. Do you think doctor, that.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Time heals or is it what you do with the
time that will determine whether or not you heal.
Speaker 6 (06:09):
That's a really interesting question. I think that God uses
time to heal us. But I think that one of
the things that fascinates me most about grief is that
grief is often described as a lot of emotions, and
sometimes we get bogged down in one of those emotions.
(06:30):
We get angry, we get hurt, we're afraid, we're confused.
And if we wrestle with those emotions with God, rather
than get stuck in those emotions, what happens is we
move from our human temporal perspective to God's perspective, and
that's where the healing really happens. But that does require
(06:51):
some time. That wrestling requires some time. So I do
think that time is part of the process. But God time,
it's properties and he gives us the time to heal.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Yep, Angie.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
I want to know what the wrestling look like, and
I mean yeah, I mean in those two hours that
you were holding this child in your arms, knowing that
you had limited time, what did that literally look like
for you and your husband? And then in the days following,
how were you able to sort of go through that
(07:25):
wrestling match with God and sort of work your way
out of it instead of getting stuck in it.
Speaker 5 (07:30):
The hours that we had her were so peaceful. And
I say that I am the I'm not a courageous person.
I'm overly emotional, but I feel like the Lord gave
us that day. So the wrestling was sort of the
before it was, you know, and I you do a
better job of describing the steps, But there was this
(07:51):
sort of like when you're coming to terms with what's happening.
There's a grief that happens there in a wrestling. And
I can remember being pregnant and a few days after
her die nosis, I was at a baby shower for
one of my dear friends, and I remember us hugging
on the way out, in our stomachs, pushing up against
each other, and you know, the whole time we'd been
(08:12):
praying for her to have a healthy baby. But everyone
in the room knew what was going on with me,
and so everyone just sort of started crying because it
was like, how do you do how do we.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Do this right?
Speaker 5 (08:21):
And so that day on the way home from that,
I'll just never forget, And it was raining, and I
was driving home and I remember literally screaming at the
top of my lungs and pounding on my steering wheel
and saying, you can fix this, fix this, you know.
So there was that wrestling yeah, which is the there's
still time. You know. I always think of the story
(08:42):
of Lazarus when I think of this, because you know,
there comes that point after he's dead and they were like,
but he's sick. Can you come right now? He's sick, Like,
there's still yeah, and so and then again even after
so it was like while we had her, we had her,
then after it was a different wrestling of now how
do we deal with that? And so I loved something
(09:05):
that you said, and I feel like that's when My
experience too, is that over and over again, the Lord
has had to say to me, I am not intimidated
by your emotions. So you're mad, you're devastated, I'm God.
So I actually know that. Okay, like you can. You
can make up a pretty prayer and say it to
me and I still know your heart. So how about
(09:26):
you just scream if you need to in the car,
but you just bring it to my feet. Can we
just do that?
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Just include me in authenticity?
Speaker 5 (09:34):
Yeah? And I need I needed that, Like I think
there's that part of us that wants to and I'm
sure we've all struggled with that. You know, I talked
to God and there's a part of me that wants
to edit what I'm saying, and you know, and then
I feel like the Lord really used that wrestling before
and after to sort of say, that's not what I've
asked of you. I asked you to include me in it.
But you're human and you're wrapped in flesh and you're
going to experience these things.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
So yeah, what do you think would be the first
step if someone were sitting on your couch, which these
ladies are right, we all are.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
We're sitting on your couch.
Speaker 6 (10:06):
This is my couch.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
It is and in fact, this is your show. We
need you to talk to us.
Speaker 5 (10:12):
We're just going to relax for the rest. That's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
I want to know what would be if you gave
someone the first step to getting out of the pit
of grief that could cripple them.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
What would be sort of the first thing? Do this?
Starting today?
Speaker 6 (10:29):
I usually ask people to tell me their story. Just
tell me the story, like you had, Denise, to tell
me the story. I think a lot of people and
I hear this many many times when a person has lost,
particularly a child. They're afraid people are going to forget
the child. And so I asked them to tell me
(10:49):
the story, because it's a way of imprinting that story
in their brain, as if it's not already imprinted, but
it's passing it along to another person. And I tell
them I'm going to carry that story with you. So
I ask them to tell the story. I want to
hear the story. I want to know about this. I
want to know about the experience.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Okay, now, let me ask a question with that in mine,
Because I think part of the hard part about being
in relationship with someone who has had a loss in
your life. If you're friends with that person, you're not
exactly sure. If you're supposed to ask them about it,
you're not exactly sure. You're kind of walking on eggshells.
So as a friend of someone who's experiencing this, would
you suggest that it is kind of out on the
(11:29):
floor in conversation that we do let them know we're
a safe place to tell the story again and again
if they need to, or are we supposed to just
wait until they want to open up about that.
Speaker 6 (11:41):
I think inviting is always a proper thing to do.
They're always the kinds of two ways of communicating, and
there are lots of things we hear about communicating, but
they're two ways, demanding and inviting. And I don't ever
want to demand that somebody tell me their story. That
could be interfearing in their privacy. But inviting them to
(12:02):
tell me their story, I always want them to feel
free to tell me their story, even if they need
to tell me again. That's part of the process for
them until they don't need to tell it anymore for
a while, and we may go and work on some
other things, and then they come back and they need
to tell me the story again. So I do think
that's true. There are people. Because of my position in
(12:25):
the office, I probably have more freedom to ask people
to tell me their story. People I don't know, but
they've walked in with a kind of trust. But on
the street I might not ask those people to tell
me their story because I haven't earned the right. It's
the invasion of that kind of privacy. But if I
(12:45):
could just add this one other thing part of telling
the story, and this is a very uncomfortable way to
phrase this, I've never figured out another way. We have
pall bearers. It's not something we do a lot at
funerals anymore. Don't really carry the casket, but bearing the
pall is part of that experience, is feeling the weight
(13:09):
of the lifelessness. Wow, And telling the story is a
way of bearing the paull And so I become a
pallbearer with them. I carry the feeling of the weight
of the of what's missing. The person that used to
be here is not here anymore. I want to carry
that with you.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Isn't that an interesting way to look at that? And
I think, really overall, that's sort of what friendship should be.
It should be us bearing one another way. Yeah, yeah,
and kind of helping them with that journey. We're going
to talk more about how we can do that and
about you know, I'm very interested to talk to these
ladies about some of the things people said or did
(13:46):
when they were in the midst of that pain that
were not wise things to do or say.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
I think that could help all of us to just
be able.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
To be responsible and be helpful in the circumstances and relationships.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
So we'll be right back in just a few minutes.
Stay tuned.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
If you're feeling discouraged and defeated, if you're a bit overwhelmed,
or maybe even feeling undone, if you're wondering whether or
not your future has any hope of victory, then listen.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
This Bible study is for you. Strongholds are torn down
by the.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
Word of God.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Fortresses are dismantled by the word of God.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
When you place faith in Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
The righteousness of Christ is credited to your spiritual bank account.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
That you are the righteousness of God.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
In Christ, Jesus, I invite you to join me for
a lesson in putting on the full.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Armor of God.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Our lives are going to be changed yours and mine,
because we're going to learn because we've got the victory
in Jesus.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Nay.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Well, hey there, welcome back.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
We are. We are doing some healing today on the
program and talking about how you can make sure that
you're not stuck in a place of grief, no matter
why that grief is coming to your life.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
We've talked to.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Three incredible people, two of which have experienced some loss
in their lives and they've been kind enough to share
their story with us. And I wanna know from you
two ladies, both of you. I wanna know if you
went through a phase of being and you've kind of
already described this a little bit, but being plain old,
flat out mad, just straight up mad at God, mad
(15:40):
at the situation, how were you able to get a
little softening back in your heart after just being angry?
Speaker 5 (15:49):
Gotta go? Do you have any thoughts? Okay, I was
gonna say it sort of goes back to what I
said before, but that I was so I sort of
felt like I needed to hit that, and I a
lot of good came from reading things like psalms, where
you're like, there's emotion in this and you're reading people
(16:10):
who are angry, you know, and they're like, why is
this happening? And so for me, I finally realized, oh, okay,
I can feel this. I can't get stuck here, but
it's okay for me to feel this, and again just
to own it for what it was. To say, I
think the more time I spent trying to act like
I wasn't angry, it would pile up. And then finally
when I was like, no, I'm I'm pretty upset. Yeah,
(16:33):
and I'm and I'm med at you God, yeah, like
and I and I don't know what to do with that,
there was something healthy that came in a chain, a
shift in my relationship with him in the way that
I saw him as a father. And So I don't
know about you. Have you had moments like that yet?
It's early for you, So I don't know what I have.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
I have one moment in particular kind of stands out
had by far to this point, the darkest day, And
what kind of struck me was that God asked something
extremely hard of both of us that night, and I
kind of got to a place where I felt like
he asked the harder thing of me and I'm just
(17:14):
being very frank and ancest right now, because I felt like,
you know, my husband is now face to face with Jesus,
you know, but I'm here and I am aching, and
I kind of got a little bit of like, Lord,
I am suffering and my husband is face to face
with you, and you know, this is a hard thing.
And when people come and say to me, oh, I'm
just you know, I'm so blessed by your story and
(17:37):
it's just really touched me. And I would say, Lord, why,
why is my pain? I'm glad for them, that's fantastic,
But I'm the one that lives this ache. Our children,
his parents were the ones that are living with this ache.
And what happened as a result of that, Like I said,
it was a day, a true day of just being
in despair and agony and felt, you know, forshaken, to
(17:59):
be honest with you, and I felt like the next
day God helped me to see something, and that was
that He gave me that as a gift, my experiencing that,
so that I might be able to partake in the
suffering of Christ, so that.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
I could be more like him.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
And for me, I can tell you that the second day,
the one day was so very dark. But the day
that God said that was my gift to you so
that you might understand a little bit better the suffering
that Christ endured on your behalf.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
I think that there is a lot of freedom, and
listening to you guys talk, I'm just thinking about the
freedom that comes over someone when they realized that asking
the why question is not sin. It's not like you're
on the wrong side of the relationship with God just
because you want to know why and most of the
time we're not going to get an answer. But why, David,
would you say it is important to know you're free
(18:54):
to go to God authentically, upset and all and ask
that why question, because I think.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
A lot of people don't why.
Speaker 6 (19:01):
Is it important to be able to ask why?
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Yeah, you don't like not knowing?
Speaker 6 (19:07):
Yeah, I mean that sounds pretty simple, but we don't
like not knowing. And what you mentioned earlier, Angie, you
said there was this moment where you said you can
fix this, and that's what anger demands. Anger says something
has to happen, and that's when we go to God
and say why. And He doesn't necessarily come back and
(19:29):
tell us why.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
And one of the things that.
Speaker 6 (19:32):
Starts happening is he starts transforming us. I think that
one of the things that we get caught up in
in grief is so what do we do? What are
the steps? When really God is doing stuff in us
in the grieving process that we're not aware of, that
we're not participants in. He is constantly healing us in
(19:53):
the grief process without us doing anything.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
So when is grieving? This is an interesting thought. The
process is important, That's what you've just said.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
When do you know you've crossed the line into an
unhealthy state of grieving when it's no longer a healthy,
beneficial process but it is smothering you and you're not
moving forward. How does someone know when they've crossed that boundary.
Speaker 6 (20:18):
That's a great question. One of the things I think
you have to look at is time and relationships. I
usually tell people when a significant loss has happened, you've
lost a daughter, you've lost a husband. It's going to
take at least a year. You have to go through
the anniversaries. This is the day that we got married,
(20:39):
this is the birthday, first birthday without him. Father's Day
is coming up, and you have to go through the
anniversary of the event where he lost his life. All
of those events, you have to go through those, and
then it's not the first time again, you kind of wonder,
am I going to make it through the first Christmas?
(21:01):
So you begin to look at time. So time is
a factor there. Another thing is am I am I
destroying other relationships around me because I'm not allowing those
relationships to help me be pointed to God? Am I
not allowing those relationships to comfort me? Am I not
allowing those relationships to be healing in my life? Am
(21:24):
I being destructive towards them? So I like to look
at time, and I like to look at the relationships
around them. And when anger turns to bitterness, that's another.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
How do you detect that?
Speaker 6 (21:36):
How do you detect?
Speaker 1 (21:37):
How do you detect when anger has become bitterness?
Speaker 6 (21:40):
When bitterness is anger tends to be more acute. I
am angry with you because you did this. Bitterness is
my outlook at the world is out right, everything is bad.
It's not going to be good. It's just going to
be bad from.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
Here on out.
Speaker 6 (21:59):
And that sometimes gets pointed at somebody, but most of
the time it's just generalized.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
So if you're just a mean person, right, then you
know that that anger has taken root and it's become
a little bit of bitterness.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Okay, have saved us a lot of time.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
If you're mean, if you're angry and upset. Okay, So
I want to know what are the worst things that
some people did. They thought they were being helpful, they
thought they were being kind, they thought they were.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Saying something that should have been a blessing in your life.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
But you just really wanted to smack them upside their head.
You did smack people, yes, But I pos tell us
help us because people that are friends of folks that
are really going through some tough stuff. You know, you're
really kind of walking on edgels because you're not quite
sure what.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
To say or what to do or not do. So
could you tell us what just didn't work for you?
And then what did?
Speaker 5 (22:57):
Yeah? Okay, we talk a little bit about this before
we even came out here, because it's funny how I
do think most of the time the heart is to help.
I mean, their motive is not wrong. They want absolutely
and listen, grief is hard, and so stepping into someone
else's grief is super uncomfortable, and so they want to
(23:19):
make you feel better. But they also want to make
themselves feel better. I mean, they just want to feel
like they did something that fixed you and fixed them.
And so instead of like I just want to sit
in this grief with you and wrestle with it, people
will try to you know, I mean, it totally makes sense.
So some of the things that I heard frequently were
that God needed another angel in heaven. I really struggled
(23:41):
with that. I've talked to a lot of people who've
heard that children, and that's one that I hear a
lot that doesn't work for you. No, And actually it doesn't.
It doesn't work for anything theologically, So it's not just me,
it's actually just not for God.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Right.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (23:54):
So the other one that doesn't really work for God
that I heard a lot was Satan took your baby.
You heard that, Oh oh, I hear it all the time,
all the time.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
So it was Mormonica.
Speaker 5 (24:06):
Basically he won. This wasn't God. God wouldn't do that
to you, because you know, again, in people's brains, it's
like I need to believe that God is good and
Satan is evil, and so something bad happens.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
So it's easier to compartmentalize word.
Speaker 5 (24:17):
And I've put that on him, and so you know,
we were talking about, like, how do you respond to that?
And I it's hard, and you wrestle with it because
sometimes there are people who are coming to you and
saying I lost my baby. But I know that Satan
took I knew that this wasn't God, and it's hard
to wrestle through that. But theologically, at the end of
the day, you're like, how do you find hope in
a world where you feel like Satan can trump God?
(24:38):
That is not this isn't healthy, it's not biblically accurate.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
So got that right?
Speaker 5 (24:41):
Did he want Did God want this?
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Noah?
Speaker 5 (24:45):
Did he grieve with me? Yes? That night in a
hospital room when I handed my daughter to a nurse
and watched her walk out of the room and I'm
pounding on every single button wanting to get her back,
And the only thing I could say it was like,
you have to be with him because I've nothing else.
I believe he grieved that loss with me. So, no,
(25:06):
he didn't want it, but ultimately he's got control. I
only find peace knowing he had the final say. I
don't know why. I don't know why, but but I
can rest in that and so that that was one
of the comments that that I heard a lot, and
then a lot of times I heard for me because
it was a child, one that you know is really common. Well,
you have three other healthy, beautiful children, you know. And
(25:28):
again it's a the effort. The effort is like, let's
look on the.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Boulden, better for them just to be quiet.
Speaker 5 (25:34):
But people don't. They don't want to be.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
They feel like they have to fill the silence with
something instead of just being there.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Right.
Speaker 5 (25:40):
And I will say the month after Audrey died, and
people who followed my story know that my nephew died
the next month at ten weeks of age of SIDS,
and so they're they're buried together. My sister in law
was holding her newborn healthy child and singing over Audrey
as she was buried, and I remember us looking at
each other and thinking, why does God choose, you know,
(26:02):
And of course we had no idea. So a month later,
now I am on the other side, and I just
remember driving to Georgia and sitting in front of her
and realizing.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Angie, I didn't know that. I didn't know that close
time in there with those things.
Speaker 5 (26:15):
Yeah, And so I get being on the other side
because my tendency, even having just gone through it, was
to fill the silence. So again I really do. But
you know, you read about Job and his friends and
it says at one point and they came and sat
with him in his sorrow. Yeah, it's like sometimes that's
awkward and just coming up with answers. It's just sitting.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Well, I think that's a freeing comment for a lot
of us that we just need to know that sitting
is just good. Just sit there and wait, wait for
the Sometimes you're sitting there is the invitation.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
They need to know.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
You're this safe place where they can open up and
talk about what's on their heart. What about for you
anything people did that just or are doing still because
it's only been four months, is there anything that just
I mean, nick greats on your nerves when you hear
it or see it done.
Speaker 4 (27:00):
Absolutely so a few that I'll that I'll mention one
of the things. And again, David, you might say that
this is something that that that time will change, But
I really am not interested in anyone talking to me
about ten years from now. So when someone says you'll
see ten years from now, you know you're the smiles
on the faces and when you know when the babies. No, no,
(27:24):
there's no there's no amount of time that's going to
make the loss. Okay, Now, do I believe that it's
true that I will learn to live with the ache
and I will learn I will learn to have strength,
you know, day by day. Absolutely, and I believe that's true.
And Angie's sitting here and that's I mean, that's proof
that that's that that's the case.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
However, but when someone says ten years from now, you'll
get it that what that communicates is get over it all.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Sure that commun let's get on with your mind.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
The loss isn't isn't going to go away? Yeah, it
absolutely isn't. So I see, I think that's that's a
really big one. And uh, I think I think one
of the others is I think just kind of in general,
when when when people will say to me, and this
is very unique to our situation, but when they'll say, yeah,
(28:14):
but yeah, but you have a baby, it's similar to
what you're saying about the three children. Yeah but you
have a baby, but you have a piece of Corey,
but you have you know, every time you see your
children's faces, it's again, it's it's the same, it's along
the same line. It doesn't replace, it doesn't replace the loss,
it doesn't replace change things. So I am completely in
(28:35):
agreement with you just sitting with just sitting with you
and letting you cry and letting you just kind of be.
And I will tell you one of the things that
I appreciate. And it's kind of to your point about acknowledging.
I had a friend. So yesterday was my birthday, and
oh thank you, but I had a friend, and you know,
I had lots of people that were there, but one
(28:56):
person just.
Speaker 5 (28:57):
Came up to me and sat right next to me.
Speaker 4 (28:59):
She put her hand on my knee and she said,
I am so blessed to be here and to celebrate
your birthday. But I just want you to know I'm
sorry that Corey is not Abso it meant I mean,
it meant the world to me.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
So this is what that sounds like to me.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Acknowledging the loss and not trying to minimize the loss
is the key to being appropriate.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
With someone who has experiences. Does that Does that sound
about right?
Speaker 5 (29:24):
Absolutely? Because I think the other side of it is
and you'll, I think as you get get people like again,
it's the eggshells thing. For me. It was always more
comfortable when they would bring it up, you know, and
a lot of them day. Why do I say to
my friend, I'm going to go to the hospital. She's lost,
and I'm like, ask her what the baby's fingers look like?
Ask her what you.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Know about the baby?
Speaker 5 (29:44):
If the baby was old enough to what was his personality?
What was the people I think, in wanting to help,
will tend to like not bring it up when what
we want is the chance to what you said, to
tell her story?
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Yeah, yeah, final words for what would you share to
someone who really, really right now is trying to figure.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Out a way to get out of this. How would
you encourage that?
Speaker 6 (30:10):
I don't want this to sound tried at all. And
to your point, I really do understand the ten years
down the line. That's not a conversation I have right now.
But the restling grieving is hope, because you're fighting, grieving
is hope. And there is coming a day when people
(30:33):
who've lost will realize that God is in control. And
as the scripture says, there is no darkness in God.
God is light and in him is no dark at all.
So everything that God does is good and right, even
those things he allows. There are things in my own life.
I'm not the story here today, but there are things
(30:54):
in my life that I don't understand. But if I
can't walk out of here knowing that God is in
control and that He's good, I'm going to hang up
my sign, lock up my door, and go home, pull
the covers over my head.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
And what are we all doing? Right? That's right?
Speaker 5 (31:10):
What are we doing this door?
Speaker 6 (31:12):
But there is coming a day when those two things
will settle in our hearts and our perspective changes from
this temporal place to God's perspective.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
It's coming.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
I can't think of a better note to end on
to you.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yep, Would you guys please help me to thank them
for being here today and think that from sharing themselves
with us
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