Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Aye. So I'm glad you're joining me today. This is
the Chat, and I'm glad you have come.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
In fact, if you have never come and been a
part of our program, you picked a very.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Interesting day to be a part of our program. Because
if we're going to talk about something that I think
is going to be very interesting.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
For you, but it's also going to cause you to
raise your eyebrow just a little bit. Either way, I'm
glad that you joined me. I'm Priscilla, and the Chat
is our opportunity to do just that, to chat about
some stuff that matters in your life or should matter
in your life, that you should be thinking about because
our culture is thinking about it and introducing it. And
today we have one of those topics that we're going
to be discussing.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Have you heard about the.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Book Fifty Shades of Gray. If you haven't, I'm sure
that your daughter has, your niece, has your mom, has
your neighbor, she has heard of it. Forty million women
have read this book and it is on the hot
topic of sexuality. And so we're kind of getting a
little raw today on the program. It's going to be
an exciting show. You are not going to want to
(00:58):
miss even one minute of it to stay tuned.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
And we have a very intriguing topic that we're going
(01:26):
to tackle today.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
And let me just tell you this.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
We have lots of wonderful web.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Shows that are for every age, every season of life.
You know, if you have your daughter you want to
pull her in, we have shows that are appropriate for that.
This might not be the one that young ears need
to hear. So I want you to make a wise
decision even right now before we dive into this topic
about whether or not your daughter, or your niece or
a young person in your life needs to watch this
particular program because we are talking about a very hot topic.
(01:52):
Is a little book called Fifty Shades of Gray. And
as I mentioned, forty million women plus have read this book.
In fact, this is one of the fastest selling books
of all time. I think that it has sold even
faster than the Harry Potter series. And you know how
many millions of people have either seen that in the
movie or they have read it in books. And so
(02:12):
we got to talk about this because it addresses the
topic of sexuality and women are devouring this book. What
is it teaching us? What is it telling us? Is
it appropriate? And do we have any business reading this
book to help us answer that question. We have a
couple sisters who are with us who are going to
help us to kind of do a little bit of
business with the Fifty Shades of Gray. And so this
(02:33):
is Dana Gresh. Would you please make welcome miss Dana.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Here, said Todsa. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
I'm so glad that you're here.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
We call both of these ladies sexperts because they have
made it their business to study sexuality. And a woman
who wants to honor God with her body and honor
her marriage and be faithful to her marriage, Dana has
done that. Her website is purefreedom dot organ. She really
deals a lot with single women and how they can
make sure they are protecting their bodies and their minds, body,
soul and spirit being prepared for them man that God
has for them. And then honoring God. Thank you so
(03:02):
much for being with us and helping us to understand
all this. And then there's missus Julie Slattery. Will you
please help me to make Julie welcome. Julie and I
first encountered each other at Focus on the Family, where
she worked for many years, even before that though as
a clinical psychologist, you would deal a lot one on
one with people in your practice, and she really has
made it her business to study sexuality as well, and
(03:24):
to study it in the scriptures, but also to study
in the culture. So you're gonna help us to make
come to grips with some of this material as well.
So I got to be honest with you, I have
not read through this book. I've just chosen not to
do that. And I just wanted you guys to know
that just because I'm holding it, it doesn't mean that I'm
necessarily endorsing it. But I wanted you to see what
folks are running into with the Sam's Club down this reat,
or the Barnes and Noble or the Walmart. This is
(03:46):
what they're looking at. Why have forty million plus women
read this book?
Speaker 1 (03:51):
What's the drift?
Speaker 3 (03:54):
I think it's scratching an itch, okay, and it might
not be the right way to scratch it, but it's
definite meeting what they think is in need, or it
is meeting they think it's meeting a need, and there
might be different opinions on what that need is. But
women are saying that it's livening up their sex life,
and it probably is, at least for a short period
(04:15):
of time. Barbara Walters on the View said that women
are reading it because what they really crave in their
lives and they can't find anywhere is a strong man.
Oh and so they're finding it, and they're finding they
think they're finding a strong man in this book.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Okay, Julie, tell us what the book is about, because
for someone like me, honestly, it was just in the
last couple months that I was even introduced to the book,
I had no idea.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
I'd never heard of it. I didn't know what it
was about.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
So for folks who had never heard of Fifty Shades
of Gray, what's in the book?
Speaker 3 (04:47):
What's it about? Oh?
Speaker 4 (04:47):
Well, I'll give a disclaimer as well that I haven't
read the book, and actually there are three books that
go in this series. But I've read enough to know
what the storyline is, and that's all I want to know.
I really don't want it in my head. But the
essence of the book is that a young woman meets
this dashing older man and falls in love immediately, and
within the first week of them knowing each other, he
(05:10):
has her sign basically a contract saying you have to
give me permission to do whatever I want to you,
and then sexually yes. And so it unfolds that this
includes a lot of bondage, a lot of harmful sexual
and perverted practices. There's a red room of pain that
he takes her into to engage in some of these behaviors.
(05:30):
So it's a very twisted love story my understanding that
the critics have said it's actually not very well written,
but it is. As Dana said, it is really getting
into a need and issues that women have down deep
inside that no one's addressing, and this author has tapped
into that. I don't think by accident. I really think
(05:52):
there's something very spiritual going on here.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Yeah. Doctor Drew Pinsky says it's pathological and poorly written.
Those are probably two things you don't want written about
your book.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Right, Yeah, yeah, Okay, So I've got to ask you
if you've chosen not to read, if you haven't read it,
then what gives you the authority to talk about it?
Speaker 1 (06:10):
If you haven't read it?
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Well, you know, I've studied sexuality for about fifteen years now,
and a very big part of that has been studying
the impact of pornography as well as erotica. We don't
have as much research on the impact of erotica as
we do pornography, but I think a lot of the
same conclusions would qualify for those two categories, and categorically
(06:32):
pornography and erotica. While it might initially create this new
passion and this new interest in sexuality, even perhaps with
your husband, over the course of time, it draws you
away from intimacy with a person. It draws you away
from intimacy and from sexuality. In fact, New York Magazine
ran an article obviously not from a Christian perspective at all,
(06:53):
and found that men who used porn were less likely
to be interested in sex with a real partner, but
when they fasted from porn, they suddenly were interested in
real person again. I think what you'll find is that
it creates an initial interest. The fact that it's a
a not an external addiction, but one that your body
is creating, means that your body can't sustain the arousal level.
(07:14):
It's a neurochemical addiction, and so what it eventually ends
up in creating is not a desire for more, but
a desire for different.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
That's interesting.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
So it's not more. You want different. Yes, you're gonna
want something different, very harmful to the intimacy between a
husband and a wife.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Okay, everything you just described that, this book is about
all of that, the whole red room of pain, all
that stuff. None of that sounds exciting to me. There's
nothing about that that makes it like that. So why
what would draw a woman who wants intimacy and love
and to feel passionate and to feel you know, satisfied
and fulfilled in her sexual relationship with us, with her spouse.
(07:54):
What would make them excited about reading stuff like that?
Speaker 4 (07:57):
Well, we've just kind of given you the broadbrush. If
you get into the book, which again I'm not recommending
anybody do and I've chosen not to do, there are
very erotic passages. And just like a man looking at pornography,
women are wired to connect more emotionally through a storyline,
actually through literature that heightens that arousal. And you have
(08:18):
chemicals in your body that are designed to respond. Now,
God created us with all different kinds of chemicals that
are flying around our head and our bodies during sexual intercourse.
Some of those are designed to come into play when
there's new and exciting love, and those are really the
chemicals that draw us to each other and draw us
(08:40):
into this lifetime commitment of marriage.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
I mean, you remember that puppy love. You remember just
not being.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
Able to think about anything else except for this man
that you're so in love with. If we didn't have
those chemicals, we probably never get married. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Well, those the chemicals that we wish we had three
months survived them throwing the socks on the floor without
the chemicals, Let's just be real.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
Those chemicals are designed to only last a couple months, really,
and there are times, I know, but there are times
in marriage where you can get them back slightly. But
God gave us other chemicals for marriage, like oxytocin and
like chemicals that are feel good chemicals that life is
well and I'm at peace and I can sleep and
(09:22):
I can rest and I can actually endure pain better
and stress better than I guess. So those are the
chemicals that really sustain a marriage long term. But what
happens is that we can get so addicted to that high.
Give me something new, give me something exciting, give me
something dangerous with adrenaline and pornography, And this is a
(09:42):
form of pornography are designed to hook us on that high,
and as Dana said, what worked last week will not
work this week, and it becomes addictive, and we also
then can't enjoy the deep bonding, committed sexual love that
God designed us to have that is supposed to only
get better with time.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
You know, I think a lot of women are not
aware of what they're getting into when they read the book.
It's such a buzzword right now. And I know that.
My best friend called me and she said, my seventy
year old mom has her name at the library to
loan fifty shades of Gray out. I mean, she just
had no idea, She just knew everybody was reading it.
A lot of women I've counseled with who are devastated
(10:22):
by the impact that it's had in their heart and
their minds are saying, I just didn't know. But once
I got into the book, I couldn't stop reading it.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Because they were hooked on that feeling.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
That's the chemicals. Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
I want to bring some a little bit of balance
to this because the reality is, you guys have studied
sexuality and the culture and all that stuff, but your
wives too, I mean, your women who have sexual need,
sexual desires.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
Could you just say that on a Christian radio talk show?
Oh oh yeah, come on, Julie, I'll own it. I
own it. We all do, don't we? Yes, we do.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
And the reality is, I don't think that Christian women
in particular talking about it, really we're not just owning
the fact we have sexual needs, check sexual desires, and
that we want that you know, all the little chemicals
you were just talking about. We want that feeling. We
want to be fulfilled in our romantic relationship. So how
do we balance the healthy need to be fulfilled sexually?
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Okay, here's the deal.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
A lot of Christian women, a lot of my friends
that I have talked to that are married, they are
kind of half enjoying sex with their husband.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
It's not like what they enjoy is.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Being in his arms. They enjoy that connection, but in
terms of sex itself being exciting and thrilling and bringing
them to a sense of satisfaction and fulfillment, they're not
quite getting all of that in there. I mean, you know,
just kind of you know, they can kind of take
or leave the sex part as long as they're kind
of laying in his chest and they get that closeness.
That's what works for them. But as we know, that
(11:51):
does not just work for the husband, so they go
through with the whole thing. But for them sex isn't
just totally fulfilling.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Them to love it. It's a gift from God. So
I would say there's probably two things that are really important,
and I'll just fall on my sword and say that
I've been that woman. You know, I've been in that place,
and the Lord really had to do two things for me.
One was I had to go through some sexual healing,
because if you have sexual brokenness in your past, whether
(12:20):
it's something that you did when you were fifteen, or
you struggle with erotica or you struggled with porn, you
can't enjoy the holy connection that God's created for your
marriage bed unless there's healing in that part of you.
And he did a deep, deep work of healing in
my heart. But then several years ago, like Frankly came
to Julie and I said, Julie, there's part in our
(12:41):
who we all go to Julie, I need help, doctor Julie,
And I just said, you know, there's part of our
marriage that's not working. And I think there's a stigma
sometimes for Christians that marriage counseling or even sexual therapy
is not a good thing. I wish you could call
it marriage coaching. Praise Jesus. The Greshes have had a
(13:03):
lot of marriage coaching, and I'm so thankful. And so
we went to Julie and got up your.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Car, isn't it. It's like you can't justn't just run
on one good tune up at the beginning of the year.
There are a couple of times maybe throughout that you
you got to get the oil change. You've got to
get you know, you got to stop at the gas
station and get the gas tank filled up. It doesn't
mean anything's broken. It just means to keep it running smoothly.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
You take it in here, and sometimes it is broken. Indeed,
there was a broken piece of me, and Julie advised me,
and I went to the resources of Clifford and Joyce Penner,
phenomenal Christian sex therapists. They have written resources, they do counseling,
and man, the Lord brought back the chemical factory. He
(13:44):
just fixed it. And the chemical factory is alive and well.
And we shouldn't be afraid as Christian women to go
to solid Christian resources to fix that which ails us.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Or even not even Christian women, just women who were
taught up to grew up to be and reared to
be good girls. And what that meant was kind of
ignoring the sexual part of you. And I think that's
part of what this book has done. It's invited the
sexual part out that has been hindered in so many
women for so long. Would you agree with that? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
I think a lot of it is we've been taught,
whether it's in a church setting or just our society,
that sex is about men, and a good wife will
understand her husband's sexual needs and meet those needs. Now,
there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but that's not all
God created sex for. He created for women, and a
woman's sexuality is far more difficult to discover, it's far
(14:36):
more complicated. So what ends up happening in most cases
is that the sexual relationship within marriage revolves around the
man's needs. It revolves around and he's ready what he wants,
and the woman adopts this attitude of Okay, this is
my wifely duty, or I'm tired of this, or I
don't count what fifty shades of gray and other things
like that have done is they've given women permission to
(14:58):
be sexual. And unfortunately the Church has not done that.
Our culture as a whole in terms of morality hasn't
done that. But if you look in the Bible, in
one of Saint Paul's letters First Corinthians seven, it talks
about how we're not supposed to withhold our bodies from
each other when we're married, and it starts with the
woman's needs. It says, ladies, your body is your husband's,
(15:22):
but it says first your husband's body is yours, and
he's supposed to please you. So you have God's words
saying women are sexual, they have sexual needs.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
He wants to speak sweetly to you through his spirit.
He wants to give you the comfort that only you
can offer. He's the one in the blink of an eye.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
That can change everything.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
You are supposed to personally have a relationship with them.
You want to reignite the fire of your relationship with
him this weekend. The greatest miracle he can perform is
in your own heart and in your own mind, not
necessarily in your circumstances. It's in you. Oh this is
(16:16):
gonna be good.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
I got a feeling about this. But anybody got a feeling,
I want you to know that your God is able,
that he can. Have you not heard? Have you not heard?
Speaker 2 (16:47):
So you're saying that there's nothing wrong with a woman
discovering and utilizing her sexuality within marriage. You're just saying
that fifty shades of gray and resources like that have
introduced it to us.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
The wrong way.
Speaker 4 (16:58):
I'm not only saying there's nothing wrong with it. I'm
saying there's something very right about it. And and sexuality
in some ways is very spiritual. And there are whole
parts of women that I think are just shut down
because of woundedness, because they don't have permission, They don't
know how to explore sexuality within marriage. And so the
world says, well, we'll help you out with that, and
(17:19):
they've done it in a very twisted way.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
And do you know, Priscilla, what will turn your husband on? Well, Lesbill,
let me tell you. Being satisfied they husband's love, when
they truly are in a committed, loving relationship, it turns
them on to turn on their wife. This is true.
They love to please their wives. It is the greatest
(17:44):
turn on. And I think Julie and I were fighting
about Song of Solomon in the in the dressing room.
I just theology, and so I might be wrong here,
at least according to her, But the book starts out
with let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth.
It's her pursuing the intimate sexual relationship, it's her wanting
(18:06):
the pleasure, and we should just do We agree on that, absolutely, okay,
So so go home tonight and say, baby Jerry, let
you must kiss me with the kisses of your mouth.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
That okay. You both have kept mentioning these two words
that in my mind would be the same thing, but
I'm assuming they're not. Erotica pornography. Could you tell us
what the difference is, if any, between those two things,
and how fifty shades fits into that.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Well. I think the point of both of them would
be to stimulate, with no point other than to stimulate,
and by that I mean that God created sex for
stimulation and yet to draw you towards intimacy with another person,
whereas pornography and erotica the sole purpose is stimulation self
(18:58):
stimulation solo, if you will. The difference being though, that
pornography involves pictures or videos, and erotica would do it
solely through written literature.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Okay, so you okay, you just brought up something I
got to ask about. You said self stimulation, which brings
in our go the word masturbation.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Yes, I said that where I just on television.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Yes, if you have any letters of complaints, please write
them to Dan or Julie. I want to talk about
masturbation because a lot of women are dealing with it,
and honestly, they don't know what to do with it.
They don't know if it in and of itself is
necessarily a sin against God. They don't know if they're
feeling very guilty for it.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Please tell us what to do.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Because, as you mentioned, women are reading the book and
then stimulating themselves physically as a result of what happens
emotionally and chemically in their bodies because of what they're
seeing written out on the page. Talk to us a
bit about masturbation for single women. Maybe Dana, you can
give us a help with this for single women, and
then Julie, maybe for married women. What does this look
like and how do we kind of filter all this through.
Speaker 4 (20:00):
I think we've got to start out by saying, masturbation
at a basic.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
Level is a physiological thing.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Like brushing your teeth is or sneezing, it's something you're
doing to your body.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
I believe God created sex to be something that brings
us together, to be shared between one man and one woman.
That was his purpose and his intention. And if you
look at the Hebrew language for sex in the Old Testament,
the word means to miss the mark. So you know,
picture a bull's eye, and right in the middle of
(20:34):
that bull's eye is God's intended best. This is his
intention and his purpose. If his purpose is to bring
us towards someone, then if you're masturbating and becoming withdrawn
into your own self gratification, then I think it is sin. Now,
if it's a tool that is bringing you, in the
(20:55):
context of marriage, closer towards your husband, then it may then,
which is a very complicated territory.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
And we bring it before God and just say, okay,
this is Is this right or wrong? You take the
example of a single woman for maybe she's been married
and then divorced, and she knows what sexuality is. Those
desires have been awakened.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
She's forty five years old.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
She's saying, God, I don't know how to handle these
physical desires, these emotional desires. Is masturbation the best way
to fulfill those? Not necessarily but in some respects, And
a lot of experts believe this. As long as it's
not enslaving, it can be a form of natural release.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Now Tha, go for it. Yes, Well, you know, I
work mostly with single women, and I think that where
I really agree with Julie is that there is an
overly there. There is an unhealthy, overly guilty feeling associated
often with masturbation. I don't think when when someone is
(22:00):
and doing it habitually. I've had a missionary kid, a
nineteen year old missionary kid, literally faint in my arms
when she finally confessed. Just that's completely overriding the Holy spirits.
He doesn't give us this a spirit of condemnation, but
maybe conviction.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
And there's more shame with masturbation than with sleeping around.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Yes, absolutely, Why is that?
Speaker 4 (22:22):
Because I think it's so hidden, it's so private, you know,
and it's this and whenever there's this secret that no
one's addressing, all of a sudden, the enemy just gets
this hold on you, and there's so much shame. Married
women feel incredible shame for masturbation. Again, even more than
they would reading fifty shades of gray, or more than
(22:44):
they would fantasizing or acting out in a sexual affair,
which is crazy.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
My encouragement is always I say it this way. Sex
is not a solo sport, and while there is, there
are exceptions, I think my opinion where it draws you
towards your husband. I think most of the time, for
that single woman prior to marriage, it's not going to
do that. It's not going to fulfill that purpose. You
(23:09):
know what, everything hard is usually worth it. Yeah, working
out for a five k run, you know, going couch
to five k All my friends are doing that on Facebook.
I myself, I'm not. I'm working on the five kate
of the couch program. But you know it's worth it
to cross that finish line and to know how hard
you worked for that. I think for a single woman
to be able to say, listen over this high sense
(23:31):
of shame and guilt, this is not from God the Father,
but his best for you is to do the hard
work of pressing your desires towards that wedding night.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
And do you think that a lot of dyspaction dissatisfaction
rather that a lot of women are experiencing in marriage
is because of what they did in singleness.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
Well sometimes well, I think almost all of us learned
about sex and the context of shame, whether it was
sexual abuse, or it was acting out sexually or masturbation
or seeing something you shouldn't have seen, and so our
bodies become hardwired to associate sexual pleasure, which is supposed
to be good, with shame and guilt. And when you
(24:15):
get married that doesn't go away. So there's a lot
of retraining that needs to happen. And a lot of
Christian women, I think, because they feel that shame and guilt,
they just subconsciously assume, Okay, my sexuality is bad, it's
wrong to have sexual feelings, it's wrong to enjoy this
too much, and they shut that down.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Well, even if they haven't had there are those exceptional
cases where they really have had a beautiful experience of innocence.
I was counseling a young woman for premarital counseling and
she was so innocent to it all that she was
reading this book that I had given her to her
and started telling her, dad, do you know about orgasm?
I was like, that's probably not an okay, conversation with
(24:53):
your dad. But that's how innocent she was. After marriage, though,
because she had heard no, no, no, I know from so
many years, she had a hard time saying yes, yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
It's still associated with shame, the message.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
No no no.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
I mean that was really my background, right, and that
came with me into marriage. And the first decade was
difficult because when you hear no from the church or
from your parents, the association is there's something wrong with this,
But there has.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
To be a no attached to it, but a no
kind of coupled with a yes in terms of here
is what God has given you your body for, and
that you're looking towards and forward to something in terms
of how the Lord will allow you to use it
in different season of your life. Now, let me tell
you this. The very first time I was introduced to
fifty Shades, it was because a woman in my church
who didn't just show up out of the blue in
(25:43):
the past year. She's been a part of our church
for a very very long time. I know for sure
she loves the Lord. I know she wants to honor
her husband. Great woman. She came to me so excited
about this book because she said, have you read fifty Shades?
And at the time I didn't know what it was
just a couple months ago. What in the world is
that she described it to me and she said, it
has totally changed my marriage. We have got so much
(26:03):
passion going on and intimacy going on like we have
never had going on before.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
So I want to talk to you a little bit
more about that.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
We've got a part two to this program, and what
we're going to continue to talk about is what is
okay for those of us who want to honor God,
we want to honor our husbands, we want to have
a passionate, hot, fiery relationship with the man in our life.
We're going to talk about what is okay for us
to do, what isn't okay, and how we can make
sure that not only are our spouse is enjoying our
(26:30):
sexual relationship, but that we're enjoying it because from what
we've heard today, sex and just for them, it's for
us too, for us to be fulfilled and to find
satisfaction and enjoyment as well. So we're going to have
a great part two to this, So you're going to
want to hang tight and not miss it.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Guys so much for joining us. We have had a
great conversation, a great conversation.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
We'll see you next time.
Speaker 4 (27:04):
Eight eight.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
It
Aye. So I'm glad you're joining me today. This is
the Chat, and I'm glad you have come.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
In fact, if you have never come and been a
part of our program, you picked a very.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Interesting day to be a part of our program. Because
if we're going to talk about something that I think
is going to be very interesting.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
For you, but it's also going to cause you to
raise your eyebrow just a little bit. Either way, I'm
glad that you joined me. I'm Priscilla, and the Chat
is our opportunity to do just that, to chat about
some stuff that matters in your life or should matter
in your life, that you should be thinking about because
our culture is thinking about it and introducing it. And
today we have one of those topics that we're going
to be discussing.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Have you heard about the.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Book Fifty Shades of Gray. If you haven't, I'm sure
that your daughter has, your niece, has your mom, has
your neighbor, she has heard of it. Forty million women
have read this book and it is on the hot
topic of sexuality. And so we're kind of getting a
little raw today on the program. It's going to be
an exciting show. You are not going to want to
(00:58):
miss even one minute of it to stay tuned.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
And we have a very intriguing topic that we're going
(01:26):
to tackle today.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
And let me just tell you this.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
We have lots of wonderful web.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Shows that are for every age, every season of life.
You know, if you have your daughter you want to
pull her in, we have shows that are appropriate for that.
This might not be the one that young ears need
to hear. So I want you to make a wise
decision even right now before we dive into this topic
about whether or not your daughter, or your niece or
a young person in your life needs to watch this
particular program because we are talking about a very hot topic.
(01:52):
Is a little book called Fifty Shades of Gray. And
as I mentioned, forty million women plus have read this book.
In fact, this is one of the fastest selling books
of all time. I think that it has sold even
faster than the Harry Potter series. And you know how
many millions of people have either seen that in the
movie or they have read it in books. And so
(02:12):
we got to talk about this because it addresses the
topic of sexuality and women are devouring this book. What
is it teaching us? What is it telling us? Is
it appropriate? And do we have any business reading this
book to help us answer that question. We have a
couple sisters who are with us who are going to
help us to kind of do a little bit of
business with the Fifty Shades of Gray. And so this
(02:33):
is Dana Gresh. Would you please make welcome miss Dana.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Here, said Todsa. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
I'm so glad that you're here.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
We call both of these ladies sexperts because they have
made it their business to study sexuality. And a woman
who wants to honor God with her body and honor
her marriage and be faithful to her marriage, Dana has
done that. Her website is purefreedom dot organ. She really
deals a lot with single women and how they can
make sure they are protecting their bodies and their minds, body,
soul and spirit being prepared for them man that God
has for them. And then honoring God. Thank you so
(03:02):
much for being with us and helping us to understand
all this. And then there's missus Julie Slattery. Will you
please help me to make Julie welcome. Julie and I
first encountered each other at Focus on the Family, where
she worked for many years, even before that though as
a clinical psychologist, you would deal a lot one on
one with people in your practice, and she really has
made it her business to study sexuality as well, and
(03:24):
to study it in the scriptures, but also to study
in the culture. So you're gonna help us to make
come to grips with some of this material as well.
So I got to be honest with you, I have
not read through this book. I've just chosen not to
do that. And I just wanted you guys to know
that just because I'm holding it, it doesn't mean that I'm
necessarily endorsing it. But I wanted you to see what
folks are running into with the Sam's Club down this reat,
or the Barnes and Noble or the Walmart. This is
(03:46):
what they're looking at. Why have forty million plus women
read this book?
Speaker 1 (03:51):
What's the drift?
Speaker 3 (03:54):
I think it's scratching an itch, okay, and it might
not be the right way to scratch it, but it's
definite meeting what they think is in need, or it
is meeting they think it's meeting a need, and there
might be different opinions on what that need is. But
women are saying that it's livening up their sex life,
and it probably is, at least for a short period
(04:15):
of time. Barbara Walters on the View said that women
are reading it because what they really crave in their
lives and they can't find anywhere is a strong man.
Oh and so they're finding it, and they're finding they
think they're finding a strong man in this book.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Okay, Julie, tell us what the book is about, because
for someone like me, honestly, it was just in the
last couple months that I was even introduced to the book,
I had no idea.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
I'd never heard of it. I didn't know what it
was about.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
So for folks who had never heard of Fifty Shades
of Gray, what's in the book?
Speaker 3 (04:47):
What's it about? Oh?
Speaker 4 (04:47):
Well, I'll give a disclaimer as well that I haven't
read the book, and actually there are three books that
go in this series. But I've read enough to know
what the storyline is, and that's all I want to know.
I really don't want it in my head. But the
essence of the book is that a young woman meets
this dashing older man and falls in love immediately, and
within the first week of them knowing each other, he
(05:10):
has her sign basically a contract saying you have to
give me permission to do whatever I want to you,
and then sexually yes. And so it unfolds that this
includes a lot of bondage, a lot of harmful sexual
and perverted practices. There's a red room of pain that
he takes her into to engage in some of these behaviors.
(05:30):
So it's a very twisted love story my understanding that
the critics have said it's actually not very well written,
but it is. As Dana said, it is really getting
into a need and issues that women have down deep
inside that no one's addressing, and this author has tapped
into that. I don't think by accident. I really think
(05:52):
there's something very spiritual going on here.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Yeah. Doctor Drew Pinsky says it's pathological and poorly written.
Those are probably two things you don't want written about
your book.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Right, Yeah, yeah, Okay, So I've got to ask you
if you've chosen not to read, if you haven't read it,
then what gives you the authority to talk about it?
Speaker 1 (06:10):
If you haven't read it?
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Well, you know, I've studied sexuality for about fifteen years now,
and a very big part of that has been studying
the impact of pornography as well as erotica. We don't
have as much research on the impact of erotica as
we do pornography, but I think a lot of the
same conclusions would qualify for those two categories, and categorically
(06:32):
pornography and erotica. While it might initially create this new
passion and this new interest in sexuality, even perhaps with
your husband, over the course of time, it draws you
away from intimacy with a person. It draws you away
from intimacy and from sexuality. In fact, New York Magazine
ran an article obviously not from a Christian perspective at all,
(06:53):
and found that men who used porn were less likely
to be interested in sex with a real partner, but
when they fasted from porn, they suddenly were interested in
real person again. I think what you'll find is that
it creates an initial interest. The fact that it's a
a not an external addiction, but one that your body
is creating, means that your body can't sustain the arousal level.
(07:14):
It's a neurochemical addiction, and so what it eventually ends
up in creating is not a desire for more, but
a desire for different.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
That's interesting.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
So it's not more. You want different. Yes, you're gonna
want something different, very harmful to the intimacy between a
husband and a wife.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Okay, everything you just described that, this book is about
all of that, the whole red room of pain, all
that stuff. None of that sounds exciting to me. There's
nothing about that that makes it like that. So why
what would draw a woman who wants intimacy and love
and to feel passionate and to feel you know, satisfied
and fulfilled in her sexual relationship with us, with her spouse.
(07:54):
What would make them excited about reading stuff like that?
Speaker 4 (07:57):
Well, we've just kind of given you the broadbrush. If
you get into the book, which again I'm not recommending
anybody do and I've chosen not to do, there are
very erotic passages. And just like a man looking at pornography,
women are wired to connect more emotionally through a storyline,
actually through literature that heightens that arousal. And you have
(08:18):
chemicals in your body that are designed to respond. Now,
God created us with all different kinds of chemicals that
are flying around our head and our bodies during sexual intercourse.
Some of those are designed to come into play when
there's new and exciting love, and those are really the
chemicals that draw us to each other and draw us
(08:40):
into this lifetime commitment of marriage.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
I mean, you remember that puppy love. You remember just
not being.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
Able to think about anything else except for this man
that you're so in love with. If we didn't have
those chemicals, we probably never get married. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Well, those the chemicals that we wish we had three
months survived them throwing the socks on the floor without
the chemicals, Let's just be real.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
Those chemicals are designed to only last a couple months, really,
and there are times, I know, but there are times
in marriage where you can get them back slightly. But
God gave us other chemicals for marriage, like oxytocin and
like chemicals that are feel good chemicals that life is
well and I'm at peace and I can sleep and
(09:22):
I can rest and I can actually endure pain better
and stress better than I guess. So those are the
chemicals that really sustain a marriage long term. But what
happens is that we can get so addicted to that high.
Give me something new, give me something exciting, give me
something dangerous with adrenaline and pornography, And this is a
(09:42):
form of pornography are designed to hook us on that high,
and as Dana said, what worked last week will not
work this week, and it becomes addictive, and we also
then can't enjoy the deep bonding, committed sexual love that
God designed us to have that is supposed to only
get better with time.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
You know, I think a lot of women are not
aware of what they're getting into when they read the book.
It's such a buzzword right now. And I know that.
My best friend called me and she said, my seventy
year old mom has her name at the library to
loan fifty shades of Gray out. I mean, she just
had no idea, She just knew everybody was reading it.
A lot of women I've counseled with who are devastated
(10:22):
by the impact that it's had in their heart and
their minds are saying, I just didn't know. But once
I got into the book, I couldn't stop reading it.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Because they were hooked on that feeling.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
That's the chemicals. Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
I want to bring some a little bit of balance
to this because the reality is, you guys have studied
sexuality and the culture and all that stuff, but your
wives too, I mean, your women who have sexual need,
sexual desires.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
Could you just say that on a Christian radio talk show?
Oh oh yeah, come on, Julie, I'll own it. I
own it. We all do, don't we? Yes, we do.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
And the reality is, I don't think that Christian women
in particular talking about it, really we're not just owning
the fact we have sexual needs, check sexual desires, and
that we want that you know, all the little chemicals
you were just talking about. We want that feeling. We
want to be fulfilled in our romantic relationship. So how
do we balance the healthy need to be fulfilled sexually?
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Okay, here's the deal.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
A lot of Christian women, a lot of my friends
that I have talked to that are married, they are
kind of half enjoying sex with their husband.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
It's not like what they enjoy is.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Being in his arms. They enjoy that connection, but in
terms of sex itself being exciting and thrilling and bringing
them to a sense of satisfaction and fulfillment, they're not
quite getting all of that in there. I mean, you know,
just kind of you know, they can kind of take
or leave the sex part as long as they're kind
of laying in his chest and they get that closeness.
That's what works for them. But as we know, that
(11:51):
does not just work for the husband, so they go
through with the whole thing. But for them sex isn't
just totally fulfilling.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Them to love it. It's a gift from God. So
I would say there's probably two things that are really important,
and I'll just fall on my sword and say that
I've been that woman. You know, I've been in that place,
and the Lord really had to do two things for me.
One was I had to go through some sexual healing,
because if you have sexual brokenness in your past, whether
(12:20):
it's something that you did when you were fifteen, or
you struggle with erotica or you struggled with porn, you
can't enjoy the holy connection that God's created for your
marriage bed unless there's healing in that part of you.
And he did a deep, deep work of healing in
my heart. But then several years ago, like Frankly came
to Julie and I said, Julie, there's part in our
(12:41):
who we all go to Julie, I need help, doctor Julie,
And I just said, you know, there's part of our
marriage that's not working. And I think there's a stigma
sometimes for Christians that marriage counseling or even sexual therapy
is not a good thing. I wish you could call
it marriage coaching. Praise Jesus. The Greshes have had a
(13:03):
lot of marriage coaching, and I'm so thankful. And so
we went to Julie and got up your.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Car, isn't it. It's like you can't justn't just run
on one good tune up at the beginning of the year.
There are a couple of times maybe throughout that you
you got to get the oil change. You've got to
get you know, you got to stop at the gas
station and get the gas tank filled up. It doesn't
mean anything's broken. It just means to keep it running smoothly.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
You take it in here, and sometimes it is broken. Indeed,
there was a broken piece of me, and Julie advised me,
and I went to the resources of Clifford and Joyce Penner,
phenomenal Christian sex therapists. They have written resources, they do counseling,
and man, the Lord brought back the chemical factory. He
(13:44):
just fixed it. And the chemical factory is alive and well.
And we shouldn't be afraid as Christian women to go
to solid Christian resources to fix that which ails us.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Or even not even Christian women, just women who were
taught up to grew up to be and reared to
be good girls. And what that meant was kind of
ignoring the sexual part of you. And I think that's
part of what this book has done. It's invited the
sexual part out that has been hindered in so many
women for so long. Would you agree with that? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
I think a lot of it is we've been taught,
whether it's in a church setting or just our society,
that sex is about men, and a good wife will
understand her husband's sexual needs and meet those needs. Now,
there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but that's not all
God created sex for. He created for women, and a
woman's sexuality is far more difficult to discover, it's far
(14:36):
more complicated. So what ends up happening in most cases
is that the sexual relationship within marriage revolves around the
man's needs. It revolves around and he's ready what he wants,
and the woman adopts this attitude of Okay, this is
my wifely duty, or I'm tired of this, or I
don't count what fifty shades of gray and other things
like that have done is they've given women permission to
(14:58):
be sexual. And unfortunately the Church has not done that.
Our culture as a whole in terms of morality hasn't
done that. But if you look in the Bible, in
one of Saint Paul's letters First Corinthians seven, it talks
about how we're not supposed to withhold our bodies from
each other when we're married, and it starts with the
woman's needs. It says, ladies, your body is your husband's,
(15:22):
but it says first your husband's body is yours, and
he's supposed to please you. So you have God's words
saying women are sexual, they have sexual needs.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
He wants to speak sweetly to you through his spirit.
He wants to give you the comfort that only you
can offer. He's the one in the blink of an eye.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
That can change everything.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
You are supposed to personally have a relationship with them.
You want to reignite the fire of your relationship with
him this weekend. The greatest miracle he can perform is
in your own heart and in your own mind, not
necessarily in your circumstances. It's in you. Oh this is
(16:16):
gonna be good.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
I got a feeling about this. But anybody got a feeling,
I want you to know that your God is able,
that he can. Have you not heard? Have you not heard?
Speaker 2 (16:47):
So you're saying that there's nothing wrong with a woman
discovering and utilizing her sexuality within marriage. You're just saying
that fifty shades of gray and resources like that have
introduced it to us.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
The wrong way.
Speaker 4 (16:58):
I'm not only saying there's nothing wrong with it. I'm
saying there's something very right about it. And and sexuality
in some ways is very spiritual. And there are whole
parts of women that I think are just shut down
because of woundedness, because they don't have permission, They don't
know how to explore sexuality within marriage. And so the
world says, well, we'll help you out with that, and
(17:19):
they've done it in a very twisted way.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
And do you know, Priscilla, what will turn your husband on? Well, Lesbill,
let me tell you. Being satisfied they husband's love, when
they truly are in a committed, loving relationship, it turns
them on to turn on their wife. This is true.
They love to please their wives. It is the greatest
(17:44):
turn on. And I think Julie and I were fighting
about Song of Solomon in the in the dressing room.
I just theology, and so I might be wrong here,
at least according to her, But the book starts out
with let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth.
It's her pursuing the intimate sexual relationship, it's her wanting
(18:06):
the pleasure, and we should just do We agree on that, absolutely, okay,
So so go home tonight and say, baby Jerry, let
you must kiss me with the kisses of your mouth.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
That okay. You both have kept mentioning these two words
that in my mind would be the same thing, but
I'm assuming they're not. Erotica pornography. Could you tell us
what the difference is, if any, between those two things,
and how fifty shades fits into that.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Well. I think the point of both of them would
be to stimulate, with no point other than to stimulate,
and by that I mean that God created sex for
stimulation and yet to draw you towards intimacy with another person,
whereas pornography and erotica the sole purpose is stimulation self
(18:58):
stimulation solo, if you will. The difference being though, that
pornography involves pictures or videos, and erotica would do it
solely through written literature.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Okay, so you okay, you just brought up something I
got to ask about. You said self stimulation, which brings
in our go the word masturbation.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Yes, I said that where I just on television.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Yes, if you have any letters of complaints, please write
them to Dan or Julie. I want to talk about
masturbation because a lot of women are dealing with it,
and honestly, they don't know what to do with it.
They don't know if it in and of itself is
necessarily a sin against God. They don't know if they're
feeling very guilty for it.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Please tell us what to do.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Because, as you mentioned, women are reading the book and
then stimulating themselves physically as a result of what happens
emotionally and chemically in their bodies because of what they're
seeing written out on the page. Talk to us a
bit about masturbation for single women. Maybe Dana, you can
give us a help with this for single women, and
then Julie, maybe for married women. What does this look
like and how do we kind of filter all this through.
Speaker 4 (20:00):
I think we've got to start out by saying, masturbation
at a basic.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
Level is a physiological thing.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Like brushing your teeth is or sneezing, it's something you're
doing to your body.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
I believe God created sex to be something that brings
us together, to be shared between one man and one woman.
That was his purpose and his intention. And if you
look at the Hebrew language for sex in the Old Testament,
the word means to miss the mark. So you know,
picture a bull's eye, and right in the middle of
(20:34):
that bull's eye is God's intended best. This is his
intention and his purpose. If his purpose is to bring
us towards someone, then if you're masturbating and becoming withdrawn
into your own self gratification, then I think it is sin. Now,
if it's a tool that is bringing you, in the
(20:55):
context of marriage, closer towards your husband, then it may then,
which is a very complicated territory.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
And we bring it before God and just say, okay,
this is Is this right or wrong? You take the
example of a single woman for maybe she's been married
and then divorced, and she knows what sexuality is. Those
desires have been awakened.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
She's forty five years old.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
She's saying, God, I don't know how to handle these
physical desires, these emotional desires. Is masturbation the best way
to fulfill those? Not necessarily but in some respects, And
a lot of experts believe this. As long as it's
not enslaving, it can be a form of natural release.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Now Tha, go for it. Yes, Well, you know, I
work mostly with single women, and I think that where
I really agree with Julie is that there is an
overly there. There is an unhealthy, overly guilty feeling associated
often with masturbation. I don't think when when someone is
(22:00):
and doing it habitually. I've had a missionary kid, a
nineteen year old missionary kid, literally faint in my arms
when she finally confessed. Just that's completely overriding the Holy spirits.
He doesn't give us this a spirit of condemnation, but
maybe conviction.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
And there's more shame with masturbation than with sleeping around.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Yes, absolutely, Why is that?
Speaker 4 (22:22):
Because I think it's so hidden, it's so private, you know,
and it's this and whenever there's this secret that no
one's addressing, all of a sudden, the enemy just gets
this hold on you, and there's so much shame. Married
women feel incredible shame for masturbation. Again, even more than
they would reading fifty shades of gray, or more than
(22:44):
they would fantasizing or acting out in a sexual affair,
which is crazy.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
My encouragement is always I say it this way. Sex
is not a solo sport, and while there is, there
are exceptions, I think my opinion where it draws you
towards your husband. I think most of the time, for
that single woman prior to marriage, it's not going to
do that. It's not going to fulfill that purpose. You
(23:09):
know what, everything hard is usually worth it. Yeah, working
out for a five k run, you know, going couch
to five k All my friends are doing that on Facebook.
I myself, I'm not. I'm working on the five kate
of the couch program. But you know it's worth it
to cross that finish line and to know how hard
you worked for that. I think for a single woman
to be able to say, listen over this high sense
(23:31):
of shame and guilt, this is not from God the Father,
but his best for you is to do the hard
work of pressing your desires towards that wedding night.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
And do you think that a lot of dyspaction dissatisfaction
rather that a lot of women are experiencing in marriage
is because of what they did in singleness.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
Well sometimes well, I think almost all of us learned
about sex and the context of shame, whether it was
sexual abuse, or it was acting out sexually or masturbation
or seeing something you shouldn't have seen, and so our
bodies become hardwired to associate sexual pleasure, which is supposed
to be good, with shame and guilt. And when you
(24:15):
get married that doesn't go away. So there's a lot
of retraining that needs to happen. And a lot of
Christian women, I think, because they feel that shame and guilt,
they just subconsciously assume, Okay, my sexuality is bad, it's
wrong to have sexual feelings, it's wrong to enjoy this
too much, and they shut that down.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Well, even if they haven't had there are those exceptional
cases where they really have had a beautiful experience of innocence.
I was counseling a young woman for premarital counseling and
she was so innocent to it all that she was
reading this book that I had given her to her
and started telling her, dad, do you know about orgasm?
I was like, that's probably not an okay, conversation with
(24:53):
your dad. But that's how innocent she was. After marriage, though,
because she had heard no, no, no, I know from so
many years, she had a hard time saying yes, yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
It's still associated with shame, the message.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
No no no.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
I mean that was really my background, right, and that
came with me into marriage. And the first decade was
difficult because when you hear no from the church or
from your parents, the association is there's something wrong with this,
But there has.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
To be a no attached to it, but a no
kind of coupled with a yes in terms of here
is what God has given you your body for, and
that you're looking towards and forward to something in terms
of how the Lord will allow you to use it
in different season of your life. Now, let me tell
you this. The very first time I was introduced to
fifty Shades, it was because a woman in my church
who didn't just show up out of the blue in
(25:43):
the past year. She's been a part of our church
for a very very long time. I know for sure
she loves the Lord. I know she wants to honor
her husband. Great woman. She came to me so excited
about this book because she said, have you read fifty Shades?
And at the time I didn't know what it was
just a couple months ago. What in the world is
that she described it to me and she said, it
has totally changed my marriage. We have got so much
(26:03):
passion going on and intimacy going on like we have
never had going on before.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
So I want to talk to you a little bit
more about that.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
We've got a part two to this program, and what
we're going to continue to talk about is what is
okay for those of us who want to honor God,
we want to honor our husbands, we want to have
a passionate, hot, fiery relationship with the man in our life.
We're going to talk about what is okay for us
to do, what isn't okay, and how we can make
sure that not only are our spouse is enjoying our
(26:30):
sexual relationship, but that we're enjoying it because from what
we've heard today, sex and just for them, it's for
us too, for us to be fulfilled and to find
satisfaction and enjoyment as well. So we're going to have
a great part two to this, So you're going to
want to hang tight and not miss it.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Guys so much for joining us. We have had a
great conversation, a great conversation.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
We'll see you next time.
Speaker 4 (27:04):
Eight eight.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
It
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