March 27, 2025 • 68 mins
What really happened in John Lennon's final days? How does growing up in Brooklyn shape a writer’s journey? In this deep-dive and light-hearted interview with Tony, Robert Rosen shares insights from his bestselling book Nowhere Man and his personal memoir A Brooklyn Memoir. Check out this very intriguing and fascinating conversation about music, memory, and the power of storytelling.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Our foundering fathers here in this country, brought about the
only true revolution that has ever taken place in man's history.
Evolve the idea that you and I have within ourselves,
the god given right and the ability to determine our
own destiny.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
The United States of America the greatest nation in history,
ordained by our founders to be guided by divine providence,
but today we are witnessing the orchestrated disintegration of America.
Take a few seconds and take a look around your town,
your state, look at your country and your world, and
(00:39):
boldly ask what in the hell is going on?
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.
We didn't pass it on to our children in the bloodstream.
The only way they can inherit the freedom we have
known is if we fight for it, protect it, defend it,
and then hand it to them with the well taught
lessons of how they in their lifetime. Let's do the same.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Welcome to the podcast Project Third Eye Opened, where we
dare to question with boldness the events that are unfolding
around us that others won't. At the end of the day,
it is we the people who will decide the destiny
of the Nation. Now introducing your host, Tony el.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Greetings, greeting. This is Tony L. And this is gonna
be a very very special interview with mister Robert Rawsonson
Wilson sal about that he is a very interesting gentleman.
He has interesting story by himself, and he is an author.
(01:55):
He has written about John Lennon in a book called
No Nowhere Man. He has written follow up books Brooklyn
Brooklyn Memoir, as well as the Beaver Story, That Street,
Beaver Street. I saw Beaver and this my mind went,
(02:18):
shouldn't went? Uh? And that's that's gonna be an interesting
story as well. But this kick things off, Robert telf
was about to and and what should we care?
Speaker 4 (02:30):
Why should we care? I don't know why anybody should care?
But if you, uh, you know. My best known book
is like you just said, a John Lennon biography called
nowhere Man, The Final Days of John Lennon. And I
wrote that book. That book came out twenty five years
ago and it was a bestseller in a lot of
(02:52):
different countries, translated into a lot of different languages. And
the book, uh, the book came about because after John
Lennon was murdered back in nineteen eighty I was given
access to his personal diaries that he kept over the
(03:13):
last five years of his life. And though not allowed
to say I've actually quoted from the diaries, what I
did was I used the information in his diaries as
a roadmap to the truth that there was a lot
(03:35):
of stuff on the public record that matched what was
in his diaries. And I took all these bits and
fragments on the public record and I put it together
in a coherent form that you know, matched the tone
and the feeling and the information that was in his diaries.
(03:58):
And what you get is like a journey through Lenin's
consciousness over the last five years of his life. And
the book takes place essentially inside Lenin's head. And you know,
this has been this has kept people talking about it
for twenty five years, and you know that's a miracle
(04:21):
that you know, when the book was published, it changed
my life.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
You know it.
Speaker 4 (04:27):
Before I was like an obscure freelance writer. And you know,
after Nowhere Man came out, I was an author with
an international bestseller who was, you know, traveling around the
world talking about it. And you know that continues to
this day. And you know, I'm always happy to talk
(04:47):
to anybody who wants to talk to me about about
Nowhere Man, or you know, any of my books.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
So tell the folks about you. You say that you
are a journalist before noware Man. How did you get started?
Did you go through formal education or did some This
is a passion of yours.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
Because you know, I had a formal Uh you know,
I went to college. I got a BA and a
master's degree in nonfiction writing. I studied with people like
Joseph Heller, who wrote Catch twenty two, and you know
other people who aren't quite you know that famous. But yeah,
(05:30):
we're definitely helpful in explaining to me what it means
and what it takes to be a writer. I've lived
in New York City practically my entire life. I was,
you know, born in Brooklyn. I moved to Manhattan in
nineteen seventy five. I'm married to Marylynn May Scott, who
(05:52):
is a songwriter and a performer. And let's see, you know,
I live in Manhattan. I've been in this apartment where
you're looking at me now. I've been here for like
thirty some odd years. I live in the Soho neighborhood
and I spend my time writing now that you know,
(06:17):
after you know, all these years, I'm obviously not that
young anymore, but you know, after all these years, I'm
finally in a position where I could work full time
on my books, and you know, that's what I do
every day.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
I write. So so for people who aspire to be
an author and trying to figure out can I just
make money at this, you don't living example that you can.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
Yeah, it's it's possible.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
I mean. The ironic thing is that.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
Twenty thirty years ago, you know, before the Internet changed everything,
you know, before artificial intelligence changed everything, that it was. Yeah,
it was. It was never easy to make money as
a writer, but you know, there were more opportunities, and
you know it's much harder now.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
And even with Amazon and all the AI and just
being the Internet and people being so easily accessible, you
think people.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
Well, first of all, piracy is a huge, huge problem.
You know that anything, you know, any electronic media, books, movies,
video games, TV shows, anything that achieves the least bit
of popularity is going to get pirated. And you know, obviously,
(07:42):
you know, the creators of whatever the thing is, they
don't make money often, so you know, that's a problem.
And the attitude now, you know, seems to be people
just don't want to pay for stuff. I mean, obviously too,
there are still people who do pay, but you know,
it's it's just harder to make money from royalties than
(08:07):
it used to be. And in terms of markets like
you know, magazines, newspapers that pay you a living wage
for you know, doing articles there, they pay less than
they used to twenty thirty years ago, and they're fewer
(08:27):
and farther between. I mean I currently and my wife too,
we both do work for the Village Voice, and you know,
it's one of the few paying markets that we have
access to. And you know, it just it didn't used
to be like that. You know, even I was an
editor of you know, men's magazines, which is the polite
(08:51):
way of saying porn magazines. I edited them for many years,
and like you know, over the course from like you know,
nineteen eighty three to nineteen ninety nine when Nowhere Man
Was Was was published, that you know, over the course
of that time, you know, what we paid freelance writers
and freelance photographers. It just kept going down, down, down,
(09:14):
because you know, the Internet essentially destroyed print magazines which
people paid.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Sure, sure, sure, So why would someone want to be
an author to day the other day? Just just just
a passion? Uh yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
You know a lot of people write, you know, just
because they want to write. I mean, you know, I know, yes,
I make money doing it, but you know, making money
was not my primary motivation for being a writer.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
I became a writer because I.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
Felt a primal need to communicate and uh, you know
I'm able to do that through my books, and no
book has done that better than nowhere Man. I mean,
I've just heard from so many people all over the
world who wanted, you know, to talk about that book
and invite me to come to places to talk about it.
(10:11):
And like you know, I've gone to Chile, to Argentina,
to Mexico, to Spain.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
To the UK.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
You know, this is all because people want to talk
about you know, nowhere Man, and in some cases they
want to talk about the other books that you know,
I would be happy to talk about, you know, all
my other books, the book I'm currently working on, but
you know, nowhere Man had just such a huge global
(10:40):
impact that, like I say, twenty five years later, this
is the one that people want to keep talking about well.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Let's get into that. I mean, I'm old enough. I'm
of Courson in the sixties, so I definitely remember the
Beatles and then John Lennon his Assessed Nation and the
whole thing with Yoko and then his son. Tell us,
(11:09):
how did you get accessed to such a famous man?
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Uh? Well, you know that I tell that story in
chapter one of Nowhere. Man is called John Lennon's Diaries.
And you know what happened was this guy, his name
is Fred Seaman. When I was the editor of that
city college paper that I was talking about, observation post.
(11:37):
He joined, We became, we became friends. He lived down
the block for me. His family had a connection to
John Lennon and Yoko Ono. And his first job at
a college was he was hired by John and Yoko
to be their PA, their personal assistant, and and you
(12:01):
know from his first day on the job, this was
back in February nineteen seventy nine. Yeah, he said, you know,
we have to collaborate on a book. My family's been
involved with them, you know for all these years, since
the early nineteen sixties. His uncle had produced you know,
(12:22):
Oo's performance pieces at Carnegie Hall and you know, he
got the job through his family. His aunt was Shawn's governess,
you know, John's son with Yoko. And you know, from
his first day on the job, he was telling me
everything that was going on at the Dakota. He traveled
(12:45):
with Lenin to like Bermuda and Florida, and you know,
he would just keep me up to date on what
on what Lenin was doing, and I would take notes
in my diary. And then he had the job for
two years when John was murdered. And what Fred told
me was that when he was in Bermuda with John
(13:07):
that summer, the summer of nineteen eighty when John was
recording the demo tape for Double Fantasy, which was his
last album that he released before he was killed, he
said that John told him that he had a premonition
of his death and that if something should happen to him,
(13:28):
it was Fred's job to tell the true story of
his life and to use whatever material he felt necessary
to tell that story. And what happened was a couple
of months after Lennon was killed, This was May nineteen
eighty one. You know, we were you know, we'd begun
(13:51):
working on the book soon afterwards, but in May nineteen
eighty one, Fred came to me with Lennon's diaries, and
you know, these were the diaries that John rod in
virtually every day from like January nineteen seventy five to
the day was killed December eighth, nineteen eighty And you know,
(14:14):
these diaries were the key to the project, and I
transcribed them and over a period of time I was
able to transform the information in John's diaries into the
book that became Nowhere man.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
So into premonitions dreams because you mentioned that that he
foresaw his his own death. Was he into that kind
of thing? Just what just this a one off? Do
you think? No?
Speaker 4 (14:52):
No, he was very much. You know they you know,
they had a full time tarot card reader. They had
a tarot card reader on muh fortune tellers and they
(15:13):
were just very into all the occult practices.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Okay. I did hear something about the whole Beatles being
being being into the occult. I didn't know if there
was a fact of fiction, but apparently it was fact,
at least in regard to John. I don't know if
that was the whole Beatles thing, that this a John thing.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
That you're saying that the Beatles were into occult practices.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
No, well I heard that. I didn't. I didn't know
if if if you heard that in your in your
studies or was that just something that John did on
his own, Well, he didn't do it on his own.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
It was you know Ono who was like really into
the occult stuff and she got John into it and
like you know, they were into everything, you know, numerology,
tarot astrology, you know, on and on and on.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Okay, okay, what was the relationship between John and oh no,
and then maybe John and McCarthy. Uh well.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
Again, you know that's a big part of the book.
And uh you know, John, no question, loved his wife
very much, and you know, he was thrilled that she
gave him a son, Sean that you know that was
(16:41):
really John's dream to have like a real family and
to uh you know, he had neglected his first son, Julian,
who you know, he had her.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
By his first wife.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
Her name was Cynthia, and he was born, you know,
when the Beatles were just catching fire, and yeah, he
neglected them.
Speaker 5 (17:05):
And so Julian, the son that I knew when he
started singing, that wasn't a product of John and Yoko
right right.
Speaker 4 (17:18):
That was he was Cynthia's son his first wife, and
then Okay, and then he married Yoko and they had Sean,
who was born in nineteen seventy five. Julian was born
in like what nineteen sixty three, I think, you know,
right before the Beatles really hit it.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
And you know, he.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
Doated on Sean and he neglected Julian, and you know,
towards the end of his life he tried to repair
that relationship, but it didn't really work out that way.
That you know, they had gotten closer in certain ways,
but you know, there was a lot of damage done
(18:02):
to that relationship. And you know, Sean was you know,
the apple of his eye, so to speak. So, yeah,
he had a wonderful relationship with Sean, and yeah, his
relationship with Yoko was stormy. That you know, Yoko never
(18:24):
really forgave him for running off with May Pang, and
you know he even after John got back together with Yoko,
after you know, the so called lost Weekend in Los Angeles,
that he would still sneak off to see May and uh, yeah,
(18:44):
he was very frustrated with that. When John wanted was both,
he wanted you know, Yoko for his wife and may
for his mistress, and he just couldn't have that for
the you know, usual reasons that you know, most people's
wife not going to permit that kind of thing, So
you know, that was an issue. As for Paul McCartney, again,
(19:10):
this is a big part of nowhere Men, and you know,
part of the reason why nowhere Man has remained so
popular for so many years, and that ultimately John was
extremely jealous of McCartney. That you know, when John was
(19:31):
in his years of seclusion in the Dakota, you know,
after Sean was born, he dropped out of the music
business for you for five years and to you know,
some degree, became a house husband and took some responsibility
for bringing up up Sean.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
So while like you know, John.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
Was doing all that and you know, just really being
secluded and not talking to the press, you know, McCartney was,
you know, always out there pumping out hit after hit
after hit, and you know, this made Lenin jealous and
hardly a day passed when he wasn't thinking about McCartney
(20:14):
and seeing his life as either you know, up or
down in relation to McCartney. So when Yoko would do
something like by a beautiful mansion in Palm Beach. You know,
Lennon would write in his journals, a great victory over McCartney.
When Yoko would sell one of her cows, a Holston cow,
(20:35):
for like a quarter million dollars, which was a huge
amount of money for cow in nineteen eighty. Again he would,
you know, declare this a great victory over McCartney because
like you know, buying the house and selling the cow
and selling the cow, this would you know, be written
about in the papers.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
So it was like before he went solo. But pardon me,
what what were they closed before he went solo?
Speaker 4 (21:05):
Well, you know they were close when you know, they
were with the Beatles because they were working together and uh,
you know, touring when the Beatles were still touring. But yeah,
that the relationship with the Beatles became strained, you know,
became you know, became strained, and you know, the Beatles
(21:28):
eventually broke up and they were like all kinds of
legal problems and headaches and lawsuits and like you know,
on and on like that, and it drove them apart
and driven or money driven both I was you know,
ego and money driven. And yeah, I think in my opinion,
(21:50):
you know, there's no question that Lennon McCartney working together
was a better songwriting combination than Lennon's solo or especially
McCartney's solo. And yeah, they just you know, Lennon didn't
want to do that anymore.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
You know.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
McCartney, well, you know, as he could see he's doing it,
he's like eighty something years old and he's still you know,
out there touring with his band.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
Yeah, he wanted to McCartney wanted to reunite the Beatles.
Lennon wanted no part of that that. You know, he
saw the He saw the Beatles as like going backwards.
He was like, you know, thirty five forty years old,
you know, after he moved into you know, to the
Dakota and had Sean, and you know, he saw the
(22:39):
Beatles as going backwards and he wanted to move forward.
And you know, he just he didn't want to be
the same person that he had been when he was
like a teenager and the Beatles formed.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
So you know, he was.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
Really repulsed by the idea of a Beatles reunion. And
who knows, you know, had Lennon lived, maybe they would
have eventually done that. But you know, in nineteen eighty.
It was really the last thing he wanted to do.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
I find it interesting when you look at so many
I mean, look at the Rolling Stones, right, and you
look at so many bands from back in the day
reuniting and didn't want and if they do with it,
(23:33):
its interesting train of thought there where you have an
opportunity to make more money. I'm quite sure John was wealthy,
of course, because he might mess stuff like that. But
still you will think that he would want to do
it just for the sake of reuniting and toy and
in a different era and reintroducing your music to a
(23:56):
different population. It was just interesting that he wanted nothing
to do with that.
Speaker 4 (24:01):
Well, you know, like I said that he was sick
of the of the music business. He was absolutely thrilled
when his contract with Capitol Records lapsed and you know
he was no longer obligated to produce, you know, music
for a corporation.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
That.
Speaker 4 (24:23):
Yeah, he was. He was tired of the music business.
He was he was burnt out on it. He was
burnt out creatively.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
He really didn't see what, indeed, what's the issue with
the Beatles. He was do with music in general. He
just do with music. He didn't want to do with
music anymore, the music business, right, music business right?
Speaker 4 (24:41):
Okay, Yeah, but you know, I mean, you know, even
during those the five years of seclusion, Yeah, he still
played his guitar and he would like job little notes
for song ideas. But uh yeah, he he felt too
that you know, like I said, he was creative, burnt
out and he needed to refresh himself. And that when
(25:05):
he started, you know, after the five year break, when
he started writing the music for Double Fantasy, he felt
like he'd reconnected with his muse and like he was
getting you know, these these fresh ideas and you know,
music was coming to him and uh, you know, he
was ready to perform again. And at the point he
(25:26):
was killed, he was preparing to go out on tour
for the first time since uh you know, really the
Beatles were touring that you know, he had played a
couple of stray concerts in between the time that the
Beatles broke up and uh, you know he went into seclusion,
but you know he hadn't gone on tour. He was,
you know, ready to go on tour to you know,
(25:48):
promote Double Fantasy.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Okay, okay, it is anything that you could tell us
about him, and was it Hinckley? Was Hinckley? He's assassination.
Who's a gentleman who assassinated Oh the guy who assassinated John? Yeah,
that was Mark David Chapman. Chatman, Chapman. Was there any
(26:11):
connection between them? He was just a nut job.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
I am of the opinion, and you know this is
based on what I've been observing for the past forty guys,
been forty five.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Years since Lenin was killed, that.
Speaker 4 (26:30):
I think that Chapman was a mentally ill person who
believed he he thought that by shooting John Lennon that
he would literally disappear into the pages of the J. D.
(26:50):
Salinger book The Catcher in the Rye, and he would
write a new chapter of this book in Lenin's Blood,
and he would become the Catcher in the Rye for
his generation. You know, that is part of the insane
reason that he killed Lenin. As you probably know, there
(27:14):
have been a lot of conspiracy theories that have you know,
popped up about Mark David Chapman in the past forty
five years since the murder.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
And you know, they said.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
He was programmed by the CIA, that you know, he
wasn't the actual gunman. There was a professional assassin who
did the work and he was actually a patsy and
this kind of thing. These theories have been circulating for
forty five years since the day the Chapman pulled the trigger,
(27:51):
and you know, all that time, nothing has come with them.
You know that people keep expounding on these these theories
and they go nowhere. And you know, I don't believe
I have been implicated in some of these these theories. Yeah, yeah,
(28:14):
me that. You know, there are books that say, well,
they say various things. You know, one conspiracy theorist said
I was a CIA spymaster who gave the order to
kill Lenin. Other people think, yeah, it's it's it's crazy,
(28:36):
it's insane.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
You know, others say I was like a CIA archivist
who did something else. And you know, some people think
I was the actual gunman. And like I've been seeing
this stuff, you know, since like two thousand and you
know the first time I saw it. You know, this
is insane, this is crazy. It really shocked me. It
(28:58):
upset my wife more than an have said me that,
you know, people are accusing me of murder. These people
who never met me, never spoke to me, and you know,
at this point, I just ignore it. A few months ago,
I got into a debate with the latest conspiracy theorists
(29:21):
who believed that Chapman was a c I a Patsy
and that you know that there was actually a professional
assassin who whoo who shot Lennon. I went back on
one of the things I said, I should never do.
(29:41):
You know that, well, because of the Brooklyn book, which
you know, talks about uh uh, you know Nazis and
the way Holocaust survivors reacted to Nazis, that there are people,
there are people who in the past have wanted to
debate me about the Holocaust. Did the Holocaust really happened?
(30:04):
And I have just always refused to debate people like
that because you know, a the Holocaust really happened and
there's nothing to debate. In the latest case, I made
a mistake of debating this conspiracy theorist who you know,
(30:26):
who believed that a professional assassin killed Lennon and Chapman
was just a CIA patsy.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Was displained to us. What's that important, was John? You know.
Speaker 4 (30:42):
The theory is that with Ronald Reagan coming into power,
he had just won the election over Jimmy Carter in,
you know, and he was going to be president, inaugurated
in I guess what, January nineteen eighty one one. And
(31:02):
these people think that Lenin would have been able to
motivate and galvanize, you know, anti Reagan people. And uh,
you know, one of the conspiracy theorists said that I
was killed, that that I had Lenin killed because uh
uh the Star Wars uh you know, anti missile system
(31:27):
was Reagan wanted to do this and uh, you know,
Lenin was somehow gonna disrupt the Star Wars anti missile
system that was going to defend the United States against war.
And again, Lenin being that political, not that political.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
I mean the Beatles, you could say, what kind of
you know political in the SYSM, but not to that severity.
Speaker 4 (31:53):
Yeah, the Beatles you know were anti war, Uh, anti segregary,
anti anti segregation, uh you know, things like that.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
They were from peace. Yeah. And but no, I mean,
I think.
Speaker 4 (32:09):
It's crazy that these conspiracy theorists think that Lenin was
that powerful and he could have somehow disrupted the Reagan
administration and turned people against Reagan and uh, you know
just kind of you know led this, uh this you
(32:29):
know anti Reagan force and the last five years when
he was you know, in seclusion. You know, before that,
it's true, he was hanging around with people like Jerry
Rubin and uh uh, you know he was you know
organizing you know, anti war rallies or you know, not
organizing them, but participating in them. And you know he
(32:52):
was you know, calling for political prisoners to be free,
you know, people in jail from marijuana to be freed,
and you know he wrote songs about it. But in
the last five years in seclusion, he had become completely
a political There was like barely aware a word about
(33:14):
politics in his diary. It seemed like the only political
thought he had. In his diaries, he wrote that somebody
was going to assassinate Reagan and we were going to
get George Bush and we'd have the CIA presidency. That
was pretty close to being a prophecy, because you know,
(33:38):
somebody did shoot Reagan and almost killed him. John Hinckley,
who's out of jail now and is recording music.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Oh is he? Yeah? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (33:51):
Yeah. You could you know, go on the internet and
find you know, John Hinckley in his recording career and
by one of his albums, if you're into it, which.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
I don't think. I don't think.
Speaker 4 (34:06):
Yeah, you know, it looked like the kind of guys
into Ankley's music.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
Yeah, neither of mine. So tell people about you in
regards to the Brooklyn Memoirs, because this is basically about you.
Speaker 4 (34:22):
Correct, Yeah, it's a memoir. I was born in nineteen
fifty two. My father was a World War Two veteran.
He fought the Nazis all through Europe. He liberated a
concentration camp and for whatever reason, the neighborhood I grew
(34:44):
up in Flappish at that time was a lot of
Holocaust survivors moved to Flappish and I don't know why
that happened, but it happened. And when I was like
four years old, this is the first time I really
became aware of it. I was standing in a bakery
(35:07):
with my mother. This is like nineteen fifty six, and
I'm looking at the woman behind the counter at the
bakery and she's like putting a cake into a box,
a chocolate cake, and I see on her inner forearm
there's these numbers. And I say, you know, mom, what
(35:29):
are those numbers on the lady's forearm? And she says
she was in Auschwitz. Everybody in Auschwitz. The Nazis gave
them a number on their forearm. And yeah, it was,
like I said, I was four years old. I had
seen stuff about the concentration camps on TV because you know,
(35:52):
it was still relatively new, and you know, my mother
would talk My father never talked about the war, but
my mother talked about it, and you know, she would
tell me things about, you know, the Nazis and Adolf
Eichmann and you know Hitler and Mangla and all these
you know, Nazi war criminals. And you know, after I
(36:13):
learned about the numbers on the woman's arm, I would
walk around and all of a sudden, I started seeing
them everywhere. It's like all these people in flappish, they
had the numbers on their arms. They were all in
concentration camps. And what I say in the book is
(36:33):
that psychologically, for all these people, all the World War
two veterans of Holocaust survivors, that World War two never
ended for them, that the war hung over flappish, like
a mass hallucination, and a day would not go by
(36:54):
when you didn't hear somebody, you know, talking about the war,
and ya, you know, there was the super of my
building was German and he had a heavy German accent,
and he had a couple of kids who were like,
you know, our age, and you know, every time we
(37:16):
saw these kids, oh you know, there's the Nazis, and
we beat the ship out of these kids for no
reason other than you know, their father.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Was German.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
I mean, you know, they were probably refugees.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
Like you know, just like, how how are the do
immigrants Jewish immigrants, how are they received in flat Bush?
Because I can imagine that some people have felt a
kind of way like they'd been invaded, the people a
couple nowhere just because and now they got jobs, they
got businesses, Like how how were they see? Was it any
(37:50):
kind of presidents or racism? They talking to a gainst
there for being jew for one day and just being
invaders for.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
For well, for one thing. Flappish was a predominantly Jewish neighborhood, which.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Is why they moved there.
Speaker 4 (38:09):
It was nearly one hundred percent white there. And you know,
I grew up in an atmosphere of extreme racial prejudice
that there is this this famous photo of this was
let's see October probably nineteen sixty four, right before the election.
(38:32):
This was, you know, after Kennedy had been assassinated and
Lyndon Johnson and Bobby Kennedy came to Floppish to campaign.
Bobby Kennedy, you know, not the current Bobby Kennedy, who's
right his father who is assassinated too. They came to
Flappish to campaign Kennedy was running for senator and Johnson
(38:56):
was running for president. And they came down like the
main commercial street in Flappish Church Avenue. They went like
right past my father's candice store, and there's this this
picture where you see, you know, Kennedy and Johnson in
(39:18):
an open limousine, which was, you know, amazing, only a
couple of you know, you know, less than one year
after Dallas, and on on both sides of the street.
And in the street there's a massive crowd and you know,
thousands of people and you can you look at the
(39:40):
crowd and every single face is white. There was not
one black or brown face in that entire crowd. Flappish
was almost a one hundred percent segregated neighborhood. That in
my public school there were two black kids and they were,
(40:02):
you know, they were brothers. They were like the only
two two black kids in the school. We we did
not come in contact with people. For the most part,
we did not come in contact with people. What that
was done purposely, Uh, I don't see how it could
(40:22):
have been done accidentally that I'm sure the neighborhood was
redlined and uh, they were just there were no minority
people there except for like the smallest handful. And the
thing about the Holocaust survivors and the people who who
(40:44):
who fled Europe, you know, they were incredibly prejudiced against, uh,
you know, people outside the tribe. And you know, this
is the atmosphere I grew up in and I didn't
know that there was another way to be you know,
the N word was just like you know, used routinely.
(41:07):
I think, you know that what was going on in
Flappish was as bad as you know, anything that was
going on in the Deep South that you just you know,
didn't hear about it really And you know, eventually it
changed that by the time my parents moved out of
Flappish in the nineteen late nineteen seventies, that the neighborhood
(41:28):
had become it because it had become a huge Haitian
neighborhood and uh, you know, it just changed completely. You know,
it went from predominantly Jewish. I mean, I don't know
what the percentage was, but like every you know, virtually
everybody I knew was Jewish, and you know, you know,
there were Italians in Irish, but you know, it was,
(41:51):
you know, still predominantly Jewish, and the well, the World
War Two veterans who fought the Nazis and the Holocaust survivors,
they just hated anybody outside the tribe. And you know,
I just you know, grew up hearing everyy what how
(42:12):
did that affect you?
Speaker 3 (42:15):
Ah?
Speaker 4 (42:16):
I didn't really think about it, because.
Speaker 3 (42:19):
As you grew up and you became illuminated, how.
Speaker 4 (42:23):
How did it affect that? You know, my god, you
know this is wrong. I don't want to be like this.
This is and you know, you know, there are other
ways to, you know, to be. And I ended up
going to college at City College, which is in the
middle of Harlem, and uh, yeah, it.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
Was like culture shock, the culture shot. Huh uh.
Speaker 4 (42:48):
Yeah, it was a it was a bit of a
culture shot, and you know, I just you know, I
was exposed you know to people who weren't like this,
and it was just you know, Wow, there's a whole
other way to be, and you know, this is the
way I should be. And it was like, you know,
(43:09):
it was something that had to be overcome because it
was just so deeply ingrained in me for so many
in my formative years. You know, you just hear this
shit every day and you don't really think about it
that you know, this is the way people talk. You know,
I'm going to use that word. Everybody uses that word.
I should not use it.
Speaker 3 (43:30):
So were introduced to somebody like me in college, how
did you react what you could be what you have
been considered a racist just based on what you knew
of the world at that time, or how did you react?
Did you react openly, brotherly or was it like how
you conditioned?
Speaker 4 (43:51):
Well, you know, it was something to overcome. I think
I reacted openly. That I was on the newspaper at
City College, and for whatever reason, the newspaper community there
were a lot of student newspapers. You know, there was
the Radical student newspaper op the one that I was
on and I'm writing about now. The staff was probably
(44:16):
ninety eight percent white and Jewish. The black students had
their own newspaper. It was called the paper, and you
know that's what they wanted that like, you know, occasionally
a black person would join op, but you know they
had their own paper, you know, their own newspaper to
(44:38):
express what they wanted to express. And you know, we
expressed what we wanted to express. And you know it's
not like we fought with them. It was just you know,
they had.
Speaker 3 (44:48):
Their own world.
Speaker 4 (44:49):
We had their own world. That was the way they
wanted it. They wanted to maintain that segregation. But of
course in class, it wasn't like that. You know, there
were plenty of black people in my class, and you
know they were just like get up everybody else.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
And yeah that.
Speaker 4 (45:10):
You know, they weren't like, you know, more you know,
smarter than we were, or less smart. You know, they
they functioned as students just as we functioned as students.
But yeah, still it was like it was a lot
to overcome because it was just so pounded into my head.
(45:32):
And yeah, my father died quite a few years ago, now,
like almost twenty years ago, but yeah, he started to
in his later years. He mellowed a bit and he
stopped using the N word finally, and yeah, but he
(45:53):
was just yeah, he was a died in the wool
racist for a lot of time, my mother was. She
did not use the N word. That was the difference
between them. And you know, my father was a law
and order Republican who you know, voted for Nixon. He
actually ran on the Republican ticket for the mayor of
(46:16):
Spring Valley, which was this, you know, little town that
they moved to after they left, after they left Brooklyn.
And my mother's you know, still alive, she's you know,
ninety eight years old, and yeah, congratulations to her. Hopefully
I got some of those genes. But you know, my
(46:38):
father and my mother's brother, my uncle, Yeah, they would
just like sit around and they'd go with that racist
shit in like an unbelievable way. And it was just
like I would walk out of the room.
Speaker 3 (46:53):
I want to hear this. You just stop it. What's
wrong with you people?
Speaker 4 (46:57):
And yeah, I consider myself an egalitarian. Yeah, I you know,
I have friends whose skin is not the same color
as as mine. And uh, yeah, it's just I overcame it.
I'm glad I overcame it. But you know, Brooklyn Memoir,
(47:19):
what I did, I captured a visceral sense of what
it was like to grow up in that kind of
hatred and you know, that kind of atmosphere, and uh,
you know, I point out too, and like the you know,
the the the the afterward of the book that Donald
Trump grew up not that far away from where I
(47:43):
grew up, and uh, you know he was he was
marinated in that same racist bullshit and not only did
he not overcome it, but he learned how to exploit it.
Speaker 3 (47:58):
Is that how you see it? What?
Speaker 4 (48:01):
What what Trump is doing?
Speaker 3 (48:02):
Yeah, he'splant the fact that his father was was a racist.
Speaker 4 (48:07):
Yes, I think you know, he understood you know, the
kind of the kind of racism that was lurking just
below the surface. You know that had been repressed for
a long long time. And yes, he was, you know,
able to exploit the hatred you know, not only black people,
(48:28):
but of you know, minorities of all kinds. And he
was able to exploit that hatred and write it to
the presidency the first time.
Speaker 3 (48:38):
That's interesting. I never thought that way because I haven't
heard anyone early of him being a racist. That many
reports and many interviews of people of different colors, his
(49:00):
kindness and through his his father of course was a racist,
a clansman, but I haven't heard anyone say that he
was a racist.
Speaker 4 (49:16):
I think he's a white supremicist and the people you
know who he's uh he's put into his cabinet, uh,
you know, are our white supremacist too. I mean, like
this whole thing with with what happened, you know, good
people on both sides or bad people on both sides.
Speaker 3 (49:38):
That yeah, I.
Speaker 4 (49:41):
Don't think anything would ever convince me that Donald Trump
is not a racist.
Speaker 3 (49:47):
And uh yeah.
Speaker 4 (49:49):
That he his great skill is dividing people and uh,
you know, there's good people and there's bad people. These days,
the only good people are people who are loyal to
to Donald Trump. And you know, not the Constitution, but
loyal to Donald Yeah.
Speaker 3 (50:09):
Well yeah, I mean that that's that's that's the one
truth that you said. I mean, and somebody could see
see that as a as a positive. Some people see
as a negative. I mean, loyalty. It is important. He
might take it to the extream in many cases, and
you know, that's that's could be one's opinion. I could
(50:32):
say he take it to this dream he has very
thin skin. But outside of that, I mean, again, I
haven't heard anyone black or hispanic come forward to say yeah.
He he literally bun bunt the costs in my yard
something like that. I mean, people have had opinions of him,
but I haven't seen evidence of that because he's had
(50:56):
blacks in his cabinet, Like I said, he has, he
has had blacks comings beat on his behalf very generously,
and I don't know. I mean, I hear these stories
about that. I saw the pitch of him as a father,
but he didn't have to be punnis for his father
sayings no more than you do. It is how I
look at it. There'll somebody to say it showed me
(51:19):
proof that this is what he did to me as
a president of at the minority.
Speaker 4 (51:24):
Well how about you know, let's go back to the
nineteen eighties when he called for the execution of the
Central Park five. You know about that, right, Yeah, yeah,
that you know, they're all black and Hispanic and he
called for their execution and they turned out to be innocent.
Speaker 3 (51:43):
Yeah yeah, I mean, you.
Speaker 4 (51:45):
Know that was pretty the first time Donald Trump came
to you know, the two national attention was when he
was sued. You know, he was in the real estate
business with his father and they didn't rent to black people,
and he was sued for that, and you know, I
(52:06):
think it was settled out of court. But it's just
like you know, it's like these one incident after another,
you know, all through the years. Like you know, when
he's talking about shithold countries, you know what countries he
think he's talking about. He's not talking about Sweden and Norway.
Speaker 3 (52:24):
Right, I mean, but I mean again, a lot of this,
I think we're taking our contest. One he's he's New York,
and two he was he was New York is very liberal,
and two three, Blacks do have issues that that that
that are not economically what a person what to invest in.
(52:48):
That's just economics. I'm a black person, and if you
ever looked at listening in my podcast, I recognize that
we got issues. We got issues in regards to how
we carry ourselves to want to be a target of investment.
That's that's that's our issue. And as if I was
(53:08):
on the economic side wanting to invest in an area
for blacks, I would think not twice, but four times
before I do it. That doesn't make me a racist,
not make me a business man. Okay, I mean, so
I'm just saying something's something. I mean I'm not saying
(53:30):
he's not a racist. I just said I haven't seen
any proof of it. Is he human? Does he make mistakes? Yes,
we all do. But I can look at Biden and
his history, and I can look at Obama and his history.
But this is not what we're here to talk about.
But I'm just saying I keep hearing these things about Trump,
and no one has came forth after all these times,
(53:52):
all these years, to bring a smoking gun that this
person was directly and impacted negativity because of his skin
by Donald Trump directly.
Speaker 4 (54:08):
Wow, impacted directly? Well, you know I can I read
about again. The tapes have not been released, but you
know there's been all this talk about when he was
filming The Apprentice that he would use the N word routinely.
Speaker 3 (54:27):
A lot of whites do, but that'll make him racist.
And again, he was in New York. You're a New Yorker,
a lot of whites. He used the inn, the word.
A lot of whites used the N word. Now little
too comfortable with it. I agree, but blacks used the
N word. I don't agree with anyone using the N word.
You can't say it's okay to say in word on
(54:49):
one person and then crucify somebody for saying the in
word on them. It's it's mentally dysfunctional. Again, I'm not
trying to defend Trump. I'm just saying that people are
thinking this out of contact and they give me a
passes to anyone who has a dean in front of
that name. If we could be equally just, we all
(55:11):
be equally just against across the board and called everything
out equally. If m puts the dead wrong, uthererputs the
dead wrong, did both did wrong?
Speaker 4 (55:22):
Well? I wish you were right about Donald Trump. Uh,
you know, not only do I think he's a racist.
I think he's an anti semi even though his daughter
married a Jewish guy that you know that I've I've
heard too many of you know, his subtly anti Semitic cracks.
(55:42):
And I just don't think that what Trump is doing,
whatever he is, that you know he's I think he's
a bigoted man in many many ways. I don't think
what he's doing is good for the country. I think
that if we survive another four years of Donald Trump,
(56:03):
things are gonna be a lot worse economically and in
other ways too than they are now. I mean, why
is he you know, tearing up these Black Lives Matter,
you know, memorials on like the streets of Washington that
just happened the other day. Why are they taking like
(56:23):
all these references to you know, blacks, two black soldiers,
you know, out of the the Pentagon files that they're
just trying to erase all these references to the accomplishments
of blacks and other minorities.
Speaker 3 (56:42):
You know, they've heard about the dependent on papers. I
have heard about that.
Speaker 4 (56:47):
Well google it and and you'll see, like you know,
it's not only blacks, it's like gay people too. One
of the craziest things they did, they had artificial intel legence,
you know, going through all these Pentagon files to remove
stuff that was considered d e I. One of the
(57:08):
things they took out is the Nola gay because of
the word gay. The gay is the airplane that dropped
the A bomb on here on here.
Speaker 3 (57:22):
It's something I mean in regards to the whole elon Musk,
not his creation, because the infrastructure was already there, put
in by Obama. But I mean those those things he
has overshot. I must agree he has overshot. And they
(57:44):
do with the the I everything with the eye doesn't
have to necessarily be bad, and and if he's trying
to do everything with the broad brush, you're gonna hit
some collateral damage. And hopefully he correct those things once
he once he recognized his error. Yeah, I mean, I
(58:09):
mean he should. I mean, I mean normally gay because
this because they have gay in it. But again, we
are in a fallen world, so to expect men in
general to act christianly in the post Christian world, you're
always gonna be disappointed. I don't think Trump watching on
(58:32):
water I think I mean, I'm a Republican myself. I
would never be a Democrat based on the Democratic history.
And if you looked at my videos listening to my
podcast you understand why I have some of your podcasts.
It's just me. But I mean, at the end of
the day, we are gonna be judged by one father
(58:52):
and that point thinks everything will come to surface, and
that's that's that's the way I live my life. In
regards of that, I wish everybody would be equally equally
kind to everybody and be truthfully honest about people's actions
as you do do their history before they espoused harshly
(59:15):
or strongly worded opinions. We always be better off. I'm
not saying I'm right. I could be wrong that that's
why we're having a conversation, you know, to have everything
come out, and conversations are good.
Speaker 4 (59:29):
Democrats are the best democrat. I live here in New York,
you know, democrat. But no, it's good that we could
have a civil conversation. But you just brought up Elon Musk.
I mean, you know, talk about racism. The guy can't
you know, comes from apart like South Africa.
Speaker 3 (59:50):
But a white person comes from South Africa, understand be
a racist. I mean, I don't know, Elon. I know
a lot of white people come from areas that I
mean questions that try to be very good. I know
a lot of good atheists who say save my butt
in many cases. So I treat each person individually and
(01:00:10):
wait till I see the whites of his eyes and
the content of what he does before I make a
judgement on that in the individual. Because some people could
say whites from the South are racist. I know a
lot of whites in the South will save my my
baking a lot quicker than any black in the South.
(01:00:30):
So I look at the individual as an individual and
I don't judge them until I have a conversation with them.
Speaker 4 (01:00:38):
Well, you know, that's the way things should be. But uh,
you know a lot of people prefer not to do that,
and they, you know, they they go by their prejudices
and they paint everything with a broad brush.
Speaker 3 (01:00:50):
Yeah yeah, yeah, or they at least somebody else say
and I was saying a bad idea, support about one
hundred peoples. A hundred people with a bad idea, you know,
just because the majority of people now in the paper
to say something about somebody, and now it becomes popular.
Not the popular is the truth? No longer is it
(01:01:11):
the issue is the truth or not? It's more the
issue is it popular? And that's where we are wanting
to so much difficulty when it comes to the truth
and what is fake news or what's real news? Because
now we don't want to read, we don't want to
do our own objective discoveries. We will go with the
popular word is on the street about something or something
(01:01:32):
you know, which is totally wrong, and you would never
get the real truth if you go on by what
is popular.
Speaker 4 (01:01:39):
I agree with that, And you know, it gets harder
and harder to figure out what's going on because there's like,
you know, so much misinformation disinformation out there. I mean,
I read the New York Times every day with like
many grains of salt. It's just like some of that
(01:02:01):
leaves me, what are they trying to say here? This
doesn't quite sound right? Something and more. Thing about Trump,
You're from New York. He's from New York.
Speaker 3 (01:02:11):
Before he turned Republican, Blacks loved him.
Speaker 4 (01:02:17):
Before he turned the Republican, he was to anybody a
Democrat Hi, And before he returned he turned Republican, he
was a Democrats.
Speaker 3 (01:02:26):
So yeah, So when did he turned turned out to
be the day the devil we incardinated? Was it before
he returned Republican? After he told republican? I mean, if
he was a bad guy against against blacks, I'm quite
sure Oprah did some research on this guy. I'm quite
sure I'm Al Sharpton did some research on this guy.
So my point is when when is the truth about Trump?
(01:02:47):
Is it before he became a Republican or after he
became a Republican.
Speaker 4 (01:02:51):
I think the truth about Trump is you have to
go back to the very beginning. The thing that I
was just talking about before, when he was you know,
working with his father at first in the real estate business,
and that lawsuit happened when it was proven that they
would not rent to black people.
Speaker 3 (01:03:08):
Right, but but but but but we already agreed that
his father was a racist. So if you still working
up under his father, that we got to look at
his father. That not that Sariah Trump. I don't I
don't notice story, you're familiar with it. But it sounds
like he was working under his father. If that's the case,
then you look at that, look at that Ross Dan Trump.
(01:03:28):
And also he's a businessman. I probably wasn't rent to
blacks in New York this because of economics.
Speaker 4 (01:03:36):
Well, you know, like you just said, you got to
take it, you know, individual case. Yeah, you know, I
mean there's a a black middle class in New York
for sure, and there it's just you know, it's New York.
Speaker 3 (01:03:51):
Well, I don't know, you know.
Speaker 4 (01:03:53):
There's some pretty white neighborhoods, but you know, New York
is a well integrated city, though you know there certainly
are enclaves of blacks and whites.
Speaker 3 (01:04:03):
Yeah. Yeah, And there's some areas that if you're a
businessman looking for an investment, you want invested in rather
be black or white. This based on the numbers.
Speaker 4 (01:04:14):
Okay, yeah, you take you know each person individually. You know,
you run their name, you're renting to somebody, You run
their numbers through the you know, the credit agencies, and
you see what's going on, and you know if they
have good credit, you rent to them.
Speaker 3 (01:04:29):
They're good, right, right, right. But we got way off
of something. But hey, I'm always That's what I said.
I like flowing and I think we learn a little
bit more about each other. I think my my, my
listeners and your listeners will also is very interesting, I
guess just learning about not only about Linen and your
(01:04:52):
take on his life after life, but also your your
new your book about how things were back in New
York back then, very eye opening. Me not being from
New York, I didn't know the history of flat bus all.
I remember this this, this this movie Flat Bush with
(01:05:16):
I think Sylvester Salon was there, The Lords of Bush.
Speaker 4 (01:05:19):
Yes, yes, that was that was somebody's fantasy.
Speaker 3 (01:05:24):
That That's why I said when you mentioned that it
was more to you, June. I remember Jews in the movie.
So that's I was taking off. I like, oh, there
was Jews. The flat bus uh so, yeah, so we
definitely learned something about you. But tell people how they
keep in contact with you, how they're gonna follow you,
how they can reach out to you. Uh yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:05:45):
The best way, well, I'm on all this, well not
all this this social media. Uh you could find me
on Facebook, you could find me on threads. That the
best way if want to contact me, you know, learn
about my books, the best thing to do is go
to my website, which is Robert rosennyc dot com. And uh,
(01:06:11):
you know, you could write to me. I love to
hear from people who've read any of my books. And
you know, I mean, if you want me to come
on your podcast or you know, you want to interview
me for something, you know, just write to me through
my you know, through my my website. And I'm just
always happy to hear from people, and you know I'm responsive,
so uh you know, I look forward to hearing from
(01:06:33):
anybody who might be listening to this.
Speaker 3 (01:06:35):
That's a definitely appreciate your time, Robert, and definitely reach
out to me for any reason. Definitely, I'm here here
to learn more about you. If you if you want
to come back on and talk about to your most
recent escapades definitely and open to that as well.
Speaker 4 (01:06:53):
Yeah, my most recent escapades is I'm barely sitting in
a room essentially sitting in a room, you know, writing
a new book, and I air myself out every day
and take a walk.
Speaker 3 (01:07:05):
He may you be blessed. I'll talk to you.
Speaker 4 (01:07:07):
So Okay, it's been a pleasure. Take care you two.
Speaker 2 (01:07:23):
Thanks for listening to today's show, and don't forget to
like and subscribe to this podcast, and look for Project
Thirdeye Open on your favorite social media platforms. Check out
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I with the letter I projectthirdiyopen dot com. Drop us
(01:07:43):
a note at tonyel at projectthirdiopen dot com. That's tonyel
at projectthirdiyopen dot com. As you wait for our next
podcast to drop, don't take anything we've satisfact. Instead, do
your own homework, make up your own mind, then take
action until next time. Be blessed, be good, and be free.
Our foundering fathers here in this country, brought about the
only true revolution that has ever taken place in man's history.
Evolve the idea that you and I have within ourselves,
the god given right and the ability to determine our
own destiny.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
The United States of America the greatest nation in history,
ordained by our founders to be guided by divine providence,
but today we are witnessing the orchestrated disintegration of America.
Take a few seconds and take a look around your town,
your state, look at your country and your world, and
(00:39):
boldly ask what in the hell is going on?
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.
We didn't pass it on to our children in the bloodstream.
The only way they can inherit the freedom we have
known is if we fight for it, protect it, defend it,
and then hand it to them with the well taught
lessons of how they in their lifetime. Let's do the same.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Welcome to the podcast Project Third Eye Opened, where we
dare to question with boldness the events that are unfolding
around us that others won't. At the end of the day,
it is we the people who will decide the destiny
of the Nation. Now introducing your host, Tony el.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Greetings, greeting. This is Tony L. And this is gonna
be a very very special interview with mister Robert Rawsonson
Wilson sal about that he is a very interesting gentleman.
He has interesting story by himself, and he is an author.
(01:55):
He has written about John Lennon in a book called
No Nowhere Man. He has written follow up books Brooklyn
Brooklyn Memoir, as well as the Beaver Story, That Street,
Beaver Street. I saw Beaver and this my mind went,
(02:18):
shouldn't went? Uh? And that's that's gonna be an interesting
story as well. But this kick things off, Robert telf
was about to and and what should we care?
Speaker 4 (02:30):
Why should we care? I don't know why anybody should care?
But if you, uh, you know. My best known book
is like you just said, a John Lennon biography called
nowhere Man, The Final Days of John Lennon. And I
wrote that book. That book came out twenty five years
ago and it was a bestseller in a lot of
(02:52):
different countries, translated into a lot of different languages. And
the book, uh, the book came about because after John
Lennon was murdered back in nineteen eighty I was given
access to his personal diaries that he kept over the
(03:13):
last five years of his life. And though not allowed
to say I've actually quoted from the diaries, what I
did was I used the information in his diaries as
a roadmap to the truth that there was a lot
(03:35):
of stuff on the public record that matched what was
in his diaries. And I took all these bits and
fragments on the public record and I put it together
in a coherent form that you know, matched the tone
and the feeling and the information that was in his diaries.
(03:58):
And what you get is like a journey through Lenin's
consciousness over the last five years of his life. And
the book takes place essentially inside Lenin's head. And you know,
this has been this has kept people talking about it
for twenty five years, and you know that's a miracle
(04:21):
that you know, when the book was published, it changed
my life.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
You know it.
Speaker 4 (04:27):
Before I was like an obscure freelance writer. And you know,
after Nowhere Man came out, I was an author with
an international bestseller who was, you know, traveling around the
world talking about it. And you know that continues to
this day. And you know, I'm always happy to talk
(04:47):
to anybody who wants to talk to me about about
Nowhere Man, or you know, any of my books.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
So tell the folks about you. You say that you
are a journalist before noware Man. How did you get started?
Did you go through formal education or did some This
is a passion of yours.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
Because you know, I had a formal Uh you know,
I went to college. I got a BA and a
master's degree in nonfiction writing. I studied with people like
Joseph Heller, who wrote Catch twenty two, and you know
other people who aren't quite you know that famous. But yeah,
(05:30):
we're definitely helpful in explaining to me what it means
and what it takes to be a writer. I've lived
in New York City practically my entire life. I was,
you know, born in Brooklyn. I moved to Manhattan in
nineteen seventy five. I'm married to Marylynn May Scott, who
(05:52):
is a songwriter and a performer. And let's see, you know,
I live in Manhattan. I've been in this apartment where
you're looking at me now. I've been here for like
thirty some odd years. I live in the Soho neighborhood
and I spend my time writing now that you know,
(06:17):
after you know, all these years, I'm obviously not that
young anymore, but you know, after all these years, I'm
finally in a position where I could work full time
on my books, and you know, that's what I do
every day.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
I write. So so for people who aspire to be
an author and trying to figure out can I just
make money at this, you don't living example that you can.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
Yeah, it's it's possible.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
I mean. The ironic thing is that.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
Twenty thirty years ago, you know, before the Internet changed everything,
you know, before artificial intelligence changed everything, that it was. Yeah,
it was. It was never easy to make money as
a writer, but you know, there were more opportunities, and
you know it's much harder now.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
And even with Amazon and all the AI and just
being the Internet and people being so easily accessible, you
think people.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
Well, first of all, piracy is a huge, huge problem.
You know that anything, you know, any electronic media, books, movies,
video games, TV shows, anything that achieves the least bit
of popularity is going to get pirated. And you know, obviously,
(07:42):
you know, the creators of whatever the thing is, they
don't make money often, so you know, that's a problem.
And the attitude now, you know, seems to be people
just don't want to pay for stuff. I mean, obviously too,
there are still people who do pay, but you know,
it's it's just harder to make money from royalties than
(08:07):
it used to be. And in terms of markets like
you know, magazines, newspapers that pay you a living wage
for you know, doing articles there, they pay less than
they used to twenty thirty years ago, and they're fewer
(08:27):
and farther between. I mean I currently and my wife too,
we both do work for the Village Voice, and you know,
it's one of the few paying markets that we have
access to. And you know, it just it didn't used
to be like that. You know, even I was an
editor of you know, men's magazines, which is the polite
(08:51):
way of saying porn magazines. I edited them for many years,
and like you know, over the course from like you know,
nineteen eighty three to nineteen ninety nine when Nowhere Man
Was Was was published, that you know, over the course
of that time, you know, what we paid freelance writers
and freelance photographers. It just kept going down, down, down,
(09:14):
because you know, the Internet essentially destroyed print magazines which
people paid.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Sure, sure, sure, So why would someone want to be
an author to day the other day? Just just just
a passion? Uh yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
You know a lot of people write, you know, just
because they want to write. I mean, you know, I know, yes,
I make money doing it, but you know, making money
was not my primary motivation for being a writer.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
I became a writer because I.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
Felt a primal need to communicate and uh, you know
I'm able to do that through my books, and no
book has done that better than nowhere Man. I mean,
I've just heard from so many people all over the
world who wanted, you know, to talk about that book
and invite me to come to places to talk about it.
(10:11):
And like you know, I've gone to Chile, to Argentina,
to Mexico, to Spain.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
To the UK.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
You know, this is all because people want to talk
about you know, nowhere Man, and in some cases they
want to talk about the other books that you know,
I would be happy to talk about, you know, all
my other books, the book I'm currently working on, but
you know, nowhere Man had just such a huge global
(10:40):
impact that, like I say, twenty five years later, this
is the one that people want to keep talking about well.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Let's get into that. I mean, I'm old enough. I'm
of Courson in the sixties, so I definitely remember the
Beatles and then John Lennon his Assessed Nation and the
whole thing with Yoko and then his son. Tell us,
(11:09):
how did you get accessed to such a famous man?
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Uh? Well, you know that I tell that story in
chapter one of Nowhere. Man is called John Lennon's Diaries.
And you know what happened was this guy, his name
is Fred Seaman. When I was the editor of that
city college paper that I was talking about, observation post.
(11:37):
He joined, We became, we became friends. He lived down
the block for me. His family had a connection to
John Lennon and Yoko Ono. And his first job at
a college was he was hired by John and Yoko
to be their PA, their personal assistant, and and you
(12:01):
know from his first day on the job, this was
back in February nineteen seventy nine. Yeah, he said, you know,
we have to collaborate on a book. My family's been
involved with them, you know for all these years, since
the early nineteen sixties. His uncle had produced you know,
(12:22):
Oo's performance pieces at Carnegie Hall and you know, he
got the job through his family. His aunt was Shawn's governess,
you know, John's son with Yoko. And you know, from
his first day on the job, he was telling me
everything that was going on at the Dakota. He traveled
(12:45):
with Lenin to like Bermuda and Florida, and you know,
he would just keep me up to date on what
on what Lenin was doing, and I would take notes
in my diary. And then he had the job for
two years when John was murdered. And what Fred told
me was that when he was in Bermuda with John
(13:07):
that summer, the summer of nineteen eighty when John was
recording the demo tape for Double Fantasy, which was his
last album that he released before he was killed, he
said that John told him that he had a premonition
of his death and that if something should happen to him,
(13:28):
it was Fred's job to tell the true story of
his life and to use whatever material he felt necessary
to tell that story. And what happened was a couple
of months after Lennon was killed, This was May nineteen
eighty one. You know, we were you know, we'd begun
(13:51):
working on the book soon afterwards, but in May nineteen
eighty one, Fred came to me with Lennon's diaries, and
you know, these were the diaries that John rod in
virtually every day from like January nineteen seventy five to
the day was killed December eighth, nineteen eighty And you know,
(14:14):
these diaries were the key to the project, and I
transcribed them and over a period of time I was
able to transform the information in John's diaries into the
book that became Nowhere man.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
So into premonitions dreams because you mentioned that that he
foresaw his his own death. Was he into that kind
of thing? Just what just this a one off? Do
you think? No?
Speaker 4 (14:52):
No, he was very much. You know they you know,
they had a full time tarot card reader. They had
a tarot card reader on muh fortune tellers and they
(15:13):
were just very into all the occult practices.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Okay. I did hear something about the whole Beatles being
being being into the occult. I didn't know if there
was a fact of fiction, but apparently it was fact,
at least in regard to John. I don't know if
that was the whole Beatles thing, that this a John thing.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
That you're saying that the Beatles were into occult practices.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
No, well I heard that. I didn't. I didn't know
if if if you heard that in your in your
studies or was that just something that John did on
his own, Well, he didn't do it on his own.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
It was you know Ono who was like really into
the occult stuff and she got John into it and
like you know, they were into everything, you know, numerology,
tarot astrology, you know, on and on and on.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Okay, okay, what was the relationship between John and oh no,
and then maybe John and McCarthy. Uh well.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
Again, you know that's a big part of the book.
And uh you know, John, no question, loved his wife
very much, and you know, he was thrilled that she
gave him a son, Sean that you know that was
(16:41):
really John's dream to have like a real family and
to uh you know, he had neglected his first son, Julian,
who you know, he had her.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
By his first wife.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
Her name was Cynthia, and he was born, you know,
when the Beatles were just catching fire, and yeah, he
neglected them.
Speaker 5 (17:05):
And so Julian, the son that I knew when he
started singing, that wasn't a product of John and Yoko
right right.
Speaker 4 (17:18):
That was he was Cynthia's son his first wife, and
then Okay, and then he married Yoko and they had Sean,
who was born in nineteen seventy five. Julian was born
in like what nineteen sixty three, I think, you know,
right before the Beatles really hit it.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
And you know, he.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
Doated on Sean and he neglected Julian, and you know,
towards the end of his life he tried to repair
that relationship, but it didn't really work out that way.
That you know, they had gotten closer in certain ways,
but you know, there was a lot of damage done
(18:02):
to that relationship. And you know, Sean was you know,
the apple of his eye, so to speak. So, yeah,
he had a wonderful relationship with Sean, and yeah, his
relationship with Yoko was stormy. That you know, Yoko never
(18:24):
really forgave him for running off with May Pang, and
you know he even after John got back together with Yoko,
after you know, the so called lost Weekend in Los Angeles,
that he would still sneak off to see May and uh, yeah,
(18:44):
he was very frustrated with that. When John wanted was both,
he wanted you know, Yoko for his wife and may
for his mistress, and he just couldn't have that for
the you know, usual reasons that you know, most people's
wife not going to permit that kind of thing, So
you know, that was an issue. As for Paul McCartney, again,
(19:10):
this is a big part of nowhere Men, and you know,
part of the reason why nowhere Man has remained so
popular for so many years, and that ultimately John was
extremely jealous of McCartney. That you know, when John was
(19:31):
in his years of seclusion in the Dakota, you know,
after Sean was born, he dropped out of the music
business for you for five years and to you know,
some degree, became a house husband and took some responsibility
for bringing up up Sean.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
So while like you know, John.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
Was doing all that and you know, just really being
secluded and not talking to the press, you know, McCartney was,
you know, always out there pumping out hit after hit
after hit, and you know, this made Lenin jealous and
hardly a day passed when he wasn't thinking about McCartney
(20:14):
and seeing his life as either you know, up or
down in relation to McCartney. So when Yoko would do
something like by a beautiful mansion in Palm Beach. You know,
Lennon would write in his journals, a great victory over McCartney.
When Yoko would sell one of her cows, a Holston cow,
(20:35):
for like a quarter million dollars, which was a huge
amount of money for cow in nineteen eighty. Again he would,
you know, declare this a great victory over McCartney because
like you know, buying the house and selling the cow
and selling the cow, this would you know, be written
about in the papers.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
So it was like before he went solo. But pardon me,
what what were they closed before he went solo?
Speaker 4 (21:05):
Well, you know they were close when you know, they
were with the Beatles because they were working together and uh,
you know, touring when the Beatles were still touring. But yeah,
that the relationship with the Beatles became strained, you know,
became you know, became strained, and you know, the Beatles
(21:28):
eventually broke up and they were like all kinds of
legal problems and headaches and lawsuits and like you know,
on and on like that, and it drove them apart
and driven or money driven both I was you know,
ego and money driven. And yeah, I think in my opinion,
(21:50):
you know, there's no question that Lennon McCartney working together
was a better songwriting combination than Lennon's solo or especially
McCartney's solo. And yeah, they just you know, Lennon didn't
want to do that anymore.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
You know.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
McCartney, well, you know, as he could see he's doing it,
he's like eighty something years old and he's still you know,
out there touring with his band.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
Yeah, he wanted to McCartney wanted to reunite the Beatles.
Lennon wanted no part of that that. You know, he
saw the He saw the Beatles as like going backwards.
He was like, you know, thirty five forty years old,
you know, after he moved into you know, to the
Dakota and had Sean, and you know, he saw the
(22:39):
Beatles as going backwards and he wanted to move forward.
And you know, he just he didn't want to be
the same person that he had been when he was
like a teenager and the Beatles formed.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
So you know, he was.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
Really repulsed by the idea of a Beatles reunion. And
who knows, you know, had Lennon lived, maybe they would
have eventually done that. But you know, in nineteen eighty.
It was really the last thing he wanted to do.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
I find it interesting when you look at so many
I mean, look at the Rolling Stones, right, and you
look at so many bands from back in the day
reuniting and didn't want and if they do with it,
(23:33):
its interesting train of thought there where you have an
opportunity to make more money. I'm quite sure John was wealthy,
of course, because he might mess stuff like that. But
still you will think that he would want to do
it just for the sake of reuniting and toy and
in a different era and reintroducing your music to a
(23:56):
different population. It was just interesting that he wanted nothing
to do with that.
Speaker 4 (24:01):
Well, you know, like I said that he was sick
of the of the music business. He was absolutely thrilled
when his contract with Capitol Records lapsed and you know
he was no longer obligated to produce, you know, music
for a corporation.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
That.
Speaker 4 (24:23):
Yeah, he was. He was tired of the music business.
He was he was burnt out on it. He was
burnt out creatively.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
He really didn't see what, indeed, what's the issue with
the Beatles. He was do with music in general. He
just do with music. He didn't want to do with
music anymore, the music business, right, music business right?
Speaker 4 (24:41):
Okay, Yeah, but you know, I mean, you know, even
during those the five years of seclusion, Yeah, he still
played his guitar and he would like job little notes
for song ideas. But uh yeah, he he felt too
that you know, like I said, he was creative, burnt
out and he needed to refresh himself. And that when
(25:05):
he started, you know, after the five year break, when
he started writing the music for Double Fantasy, he felt
like he'd reconnected with his muse and like he was
getting you know, these these fresh ideas and you know,
music was coming to him and uh, you know, he
was ready to perform again. And at the point he
(25:26):
was killed, he was preparing to go out on tour
for the first time since uh you know, really the
Beatles were touring that you know, he had played a
couple of stray concerts in between the time that the
Beatles broke up and uh, you know he went into seclusion,
but you know he hadn't gone on tour. He was,
you know, ready to go on tour to you know,
(25:48):
promote Double Fantasy.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Okay, okay, it is anything that you could tell us
about him, and was it Hinckley? Was Hinckley? He's assassination.
Who's a gentleman who assassinated Oh the guy who assassinated John? Yeah,
that was Mark David Chapman. Chatman, Chapman. Was there any
(26:11):
connection between them? He was just a nut job.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
I am of the opinion, and you know this is
based on what I've been observing for the past forty guys,
been forty five.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Years since Lenin was killed, that.
Speaker 4 (26:30):
I think that Chapman was a mentally ill person who
believed he he thought that by shooting John Lennon that
he would literally disappear into the pages of the J. D.
(26:50):
Salinger book The Catcher in the Rye, and he would
write a new chapter of this book in Lenin's Blood,
and he would become the Catcher in the Rye for
his generation. You know, that is part of the insane
reason that he killed Lenin. As you probably know, there
(27:14):
have been a lot of conspiracy theories that have you know,
popped up about Mark David Chapman in the past forty
five years since the murder.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
And you know, they said.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
He was programmed by the CIA, that you know, he
wasn't the actual gunman. There was a professional assassin who
did the work and he was actually a patsy and
this kind of thing. These theories have been circulating for
forty five years since the day the Chapman pulled the trigger,
(27:51):
and you know, all that time, nothing has come with them.
You know that people keep expounding on these these theories
and they go nowhere. And you know, I don't believe
I have been implicated in some of these these theories. Yeah, yeah,
(28:14):
me that. You know, there are books that say, well,
they say various things. You know, one conspiracy theorist said
I was a CIA spymaster who gave the order to
kill Lenin. Other people think, yeah, it's it's it's crazy,
(28:36):
it's insane.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
You know, others say I was like a CIA archivist
who did something else. And you know, some people think
I was the actual gunman. And like I've been seeing
this stuff, you know, since like two thousand and you
know the first time I saw it. You know, this
is insane, this is crazy. It really shocked me. It
(28:58):
upset my wife more than an have said me that,
you know, people are accusing me of murder. These people
who never met me, never spoke to me, and you know,
at this point, I just ignore it. A few months ago,
I got into a debate with the latest conspiracy theorists
(29:21):
who believed that Chapman was a c I a Patsy
and that you know that there was actually a professional
assassin who whoo who shot Lennon. I went back on
one of the things I said, I should never do.
(29:41):
You know that, well, because of the Brooklyn book, which
you know, talks about uh uh, you know Nazis and
the way Holocaust survivors reacted to Nazis, that there are people,
there are people who in the past have wanted to
debate me about the Holocaust. Did the Holocaust really happened?
(30:04):
And I have just always refused to debate people like
that because you know, a the Holocaust really happened and
there's nothing to debate. In the latest case, I made
a mistake of debating this conspiracy theorist who you know,
(30:26):
who believed that a professional assassin killed Lennon and Chapman
was just a CIA patsy.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Was displained to us. What's that important, was John? You know.
Speaker 4 (30:42):
The theory is that with Ronald Reagan coming into power,
he had just won the election over Jimmy Carter in,
you know, and he was going to be president, inaugurated
in I guess what, January nineteen eighty one one. And
(31:02):
these people think that Lenin would have been able to
motivate and galvanize, you know, anti Reagan people. And uh,
you know, one of the conspiracy theorists said that I
was killed, that that I had Lenin killed because uh
uh the Star Wars uh you know, anti missile system
(31:27):
was Reagan wanted to do this and uh, you know,
Lenin was somehow gonna disrupt the Star Wars anti missile
system that was going to defend the United States against war.
And again, Lenin being that political, not that political.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
I mean the Beatles, you could say, what kind of
you know political in the SYSM, but not to that severity.
Speaker 4 (31:53):
Yeah, the Beatles you know were anti war, Uh, anti segregary,
anti anti segregation, uh you know, things like that.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
They were from peace. Yeah. And but no, I mean,
I think.
Speaker 4 (32:09):
It's crazy that these conspiracy theorists think that Lenin was
that powerful and he could have somehow disrupted the Reagan
administration and turned people against Reagan and uh, you know
just kind of you know led this, uh this you
(32:29):
know anti Reagan force and the last five years when
he was you know, in seclusion. You know, before that,
it's true, he was hanging around with people like Jerry
Rubin and uh uh, you know he was you know
organizing you know, anti war rallies or you know, not
organizing them, but participating in them. And you know he
(32:52):
was you know, calling for political prisoners to be free,
you know, people in jail from marijuana to be freed,
and you know he wrote songs about it. But in
the last five years in seclusion, he had become completely
a political There was like barely aware a word about
(33:14):
politics in his diary. It seemed like the only political
thought he had. In his diaries, he wrote that somebody
was going to assassinate Reagan and we were going to
get George Bush and we'd have the CIA presidency. That
was pretty close to being a prophecy, because you know,
(33:38):
somebody did shoot Reagan and almost killed him. John Hinckley,
who's out of jail now and is recording music.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Oh is he? Yeah? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (33:51):
Yeah. You could you know, go on the internet and
find you know, John Hinckley in his recording career and
by one of his albums, if you're into it, which.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
I don't think. I don't think.
Speaker 4 (34:06):
Yeah, you know, it looked like the kind of guys
into Ankley's music.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
Yeah, neither of mine. So tell people about you in
regards to the Brooklyn Memoirs, because this is basically about you.
Speaker 4 (34:22):
Correct, Yeah, it's a memoir. I was born in nineteen
fifty two. My father was a World War Two veteran.
He fought the Nazis all through Europe. He liberated a
concentration camp and for whatever reason, the neighborhood I grew
(34:44):
up in Flappish at that time was a lot of
Holocaust survivors moved to Flappish and I don't know why
that happened, but it happened. And when I was like
four years old, this is the first time I really
became aware of it. I was standing in a bakery
(35:07):
with my mother. This is like nineteen fifty six, and
I'm looking at the woman behind the counter at the
bakery and she's like putting a cake into a box,
a chocolate cake, and I see on her inner forearm
there's these numbers. And I say, you know, mom, what
(35:29):
are those numbers on the lady's forearm? And she says
she was in Auschwitz. Everybody in Auschwitz. The Nazis gave
them a number on their forearm. And yeah, it was,
like I said, I was four years old. I had
seen stuff about the concentration camps on TV because you know,
(35:52):
it was still relatively new, and you know, my mother
would talk My father never talked about the war, but
my mother talked about it, and you know, she would
tell me things about, you know, the Nazis and Adolf
Eichmann and you know Hitler and Mangla and all these
you know, Nazi war criminals. And you know, after I
(36:13):
learned about the numbers on the woman's arm, I would
walk around and all of a sudden, I started seeing
them everywhere. It's like all these people in flappish, they
had the numbers on their arms. They were all in
concentration camps. And what I say in the book is
(36:33):
that psychologically, for all these people, all the World War
two veterans of Holocaust survivors, that World War two never
ended for them, that the war hung over flappish, like
a mass hallucination, and a day would not go by
(36:54):
when you didn't hear somebody, you know, talking about the war,
and ya, you know, there was the super of my
building was German and he had a heavy German accent,
and he had a couple of kids who were like,
you know, our age, and you know, every time we
(37:16):
saw these kids, oh you know, there's the Nazis, and
we beat the ship out of these kids for no
reason other than you know, their father.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Was German.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
I mean, you know, they were probably refugees.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
Like you know, just like, how how are the do
immigrants Jewish immigrants, how are they received in flat Bush?
Because I can imagine that some people have felt a
kind of way like they'd been invaded, the people a
couple nowhere just because and now they got jobs, they
got businesses, Like how how were they see? Was it any
(37:50):
kind of presidents or racism? They talking to a gainst
there for being jew for one day and just being
invaders for.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
For well, for one thing. Flappish was a predominantly Jewish neighborhood, which.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Is why they moved there.
Speaker 4 (38:09):
It was nearly one hundred percent white there. And you know,
I grew up in an atmosphere of extreme racial prejudice
that there is this this famous photo of this was
let's see October probably nineteen sixty four, right before the election.
(38:32):
This was, you know, after Kennedy had been assassinated and
Lyndon Johnson and Bobby Kennedy came to Floppish to campaign.
Bobby Kennedy, you know, not the current Bobby Kennedy, who's
right his father who is assassinated too. They came to
Flappish to campaign Kennedy was running for senator and Johnson
(38:56):
was running for president. And they came down like the
main commercial street in Flappish Church Avenue. They went like
right past my father's candice store, and there's this this
picture where you see, you know, Kennedy and Johnson in
(39:18):
an open limousine, which was, you know, amazing, only a
couple of you know, you know, less than one year
after Dallas, and on on both sides of the street.
And in the street there's a massive crowd and you know,
thousands of people and you can you look at the
(39:40):
crowd and every single face is white. There was not
one black or brown face in that entire crowd. Flappish
was almost a one hundred percent segregated neighborhood. That in
my public school there were two black kids and they were,
(40:02):
you know, they were brothers. They were like the only
two two black kids in the school. We we did
not come in contact with people. For the most part,
we did not come in contact with people. What that
was done purposely, Uh, I don't see how it could
(40:22):
have been done accidentally that I'm sure the neighborhood was
redlined and uh, they were just there were no minority
people there except for like the smallest handful. And the
thing about the Holocaust survivors and the people who who
(40:44):
who fled Europe, you know, they were incredibly prejudiced against, uh,
you know, people outside the tribe. And you know, this
is the atmosphere I grew up in and I didn't
know that there was another way to be you know,
the N word was just like you know, used routinely.
(41:07):
I think, you know that what was going on in
Flappish was as bad as you know, anything that was
going on in the Deep South that you just you know,
didn't hear about it really And you know, eventually it
changed that by the time my parents moved out of
Flappish in the nineteen late nineteen seventies, that the neighborhood
(41:28):
had become it because it had become a huge Haitian
neighborhood and uh, you know, it just changed completely. You know,
it went from predominantly Jewish. I mean, I don't know
what the percentage was, but like every you know, virtually
everybody I knew was Jewish, and you know, you know,
there were Italians in Irish, but you know, it was,
(41:51):
you know, still predominantly Jewish, and the well, the World
War Two veterans who fought the Nazis and the Holocaust survivors,
they just hated anybody outside the tribe. And you know,
I just you know, grew up hearing everyy what how
(42:12):
did that affect you?
Speaker 3 (42:15):
Ah?
Speaker 4 (42:16):
I didn't really think about it, because.
Speaker 3 (42:19):
As you grew up and you became illuminated, how.
Speaker 4 (42:23):
How did it affect that? You know, my god, you
know this is wrong. I don't want to be like this.
This is and you know, you know, there are other
ways to, you know, to be. And I ended up
going to college at City College, which is in the
middle of Harlem, and uh, yeah, it.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
Was like culture shock, the culture shot. Huh uh.
Speaker 4 (42:48):
Yeah, it was a it was a bit of a
culture shot, and you know, I just you know, I
was exposed you know to people who weren't like this,
and it was just you know, Wow, there's a whole
other way to be, and you know, this is the
way I should be. And it was like, you know,
(43:09):
it was something that had to be overcome because it
was just so deeply ingrained in me for so many
in my formative years. You know, you just hear this
shit every day and you don't really think about it
that you know, this is the way people talk. You know,
I'm going to use that word. Everybody uses that word.
I should not use it.
Speaker 3 (43:30):
So were introduced to somebody like me in college, how
did you react what you could be what you have
been considered a racist just based on what you knew
of the world at that time, or how did you react?
Did you react openly, brotherly or was it like how
you conditioned?
Speaker 4 (43:51):
Well, you know, it was something to overcome. I think
I reacted openly. That I was on the newspaper at
City College, and for whatever reason, the newspaper community there
were a lot of student newspapers. You know, there was
the Radical student newspaper op the one that I was
on and I'm writing about now. The staff was probably
(44:16):
ninety eight percent white and Jewish. The black students had
their own newspaper. It was called the paper, and you
know that's what they wanted that like, you know, occasionally
a black person would join op, but you know they
had their own paper, you know, their own newspaper to
(44:38):
express what they wanted to express. And you know, we
expressed what we wanted to express. And you know it's
not like we fought with them. It was just you know,
they had.
Speaker 3 (44:48):
Their own world.
Speaker 4 (44:49):
We had their own world. That was the way they
wanted it. They wanted to maintain that segregation. But of
course in class, it wasn't like that. You know, there
were plenty of black people in my class, and you
know they were just like get up everybody else.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
And yeah that.
Speaker 4 (45:10):
You know, they weren't like, you know, more you know,
smarter than we were, or less smart. You know, they
they functioned as students just as we functioned as students.
But yeah, still it was like it was a lot
to overcome because it was just so pounded into my head.
(45:32):
And yeah, my father died quite a few years ago, now,
like almost twenty years ago, but yeah, he started to
in his later years. He mellowed a bit and he
stopped using the N word finally, and yeah, but he
(45:53):
was just yeah, he was a died in the wool
racist for a lot of time, my mother was. She
did not use the N word. That was the difference
between them. And you know, my father was a law
and order Republican who you know, voted for Nixon. He
actually ran on the Republican ticket for the mayor of
(46:16):
Spring Valley, which was this, you know, little town that
they moved to after they left, after they left Brooklyn.
And my mother's you know, still alive, she's you know,
ninety eight years old, and yeah, congratulations to her. Hopefully
I got some of those genes. But you know, my
(46:38):
father and my mother's brother, my uncle, Yeah, they would
just like sit around and they'd go with that racist
shit in like an unbelievable way. And it was just
like I would walk out of the room.
Speaker 3 (46:53):
I want to hear this. You just stop it. What's
wrong with you people?
Speaker 4 (46:57):
And yeah, I consider myself an egalitarian. Yeah, I you know,
I have friends whose skin is not the same color
as as mine. And uh, yeah, it's just I overcame it.
I'm glad I overcame it. But you know, Brooklyn Memoir,
(47:19):
what I did, I captured a visceral sense of what
it was like to grow up in that kind of
hatred and you know, that kind of atmosphere, and uh,
you know, I point out too, and like the you know,
the the the the afterward of the book that Donald
Trump grew up not that far away from where I
(47:43):
grew up, and uh, you know he was he was
marinated in that same racist bullshit and not only did
he not overcome it, but he learned how to exploit it.
Speaker 3 (47:58):
Is that how you see it? What?
Speaker 4 (48:01):
What what Trump is doing?
Speaker 3 (48:02):
Yeah, he'splant the fact that his father was was a racist.
Speaker 4 (48:07):
Yes, I think you know, he understood you know, the
kind of the kind of racism that was lurking just
below the surface. You know that had been repressed for
a long long time. And yes, he was, you know,
able to exploit the hatred you know, not only black people,
(48:28):
but of you know, minorities of all kinds. And he
was able to exploit that hatred and write it to
the presidency the first time.
Speaker 3 (48:38):
That's interesting. I never thought that way because I haven't
heard anyone early of him being a racist. That many
reports and many interviews of people of different colors, his
(49:00):
kindness and through his his father of course was a racist,
a clansman, but I haven't heard anyone say that he
was a racist.
Speaker 4 (49:16):
I think he's a white supremicist and the people you
know who he's uh he's put into his cabinet, uh,
you know, are our white supremacist too. I mean, like
this whole thing with with what happened, you know, good
people on both sides or bad people on both sides.
Speaker 3 (49:38):
That yeah, I.
Speaker 4 (49:41):
Don't think anything would ever convince me that Donald Trump
is not a racist.
Speaker 3 (49:47):
And uh yeah.
Speaker 4 (49:49):
That he his great skill is dividing people and uh,
you know, there's good people and there's bad people. These days,
the only good people are people who are loyal to
to Donald Trump. And you know, not the Constitution, but
loyal to Donald Yeah.
Speaker 3 (50:09):
Well yeah, I mean that that's that's that's the one
truth that you said. I mean, and somebody could see
see that as a as a positive. Some people see
as a negative. I mean, loyalty. It is important. He
might take it to the extream in many cases, and
you know, that's that's could be one's opinion. I could
(50:32):
say he take it to this dream he has very
thin skin. But outside of that, I mean, again, I
haven't heard anyone black or hispanic come forward to say yeah.
He he literally bun bunt the costs in my yard
something like that. I mean, people have had opinions of him,
but I haven't seen evidence of that because he's had
(50:56):
blacks in his cabinet, Like I said, he has, he
has had blacks comings beat on his behalf very generously,
and I don't know. I mean, I hear these stories
about that. I saw the pitch of him as a father,
but he didn't have to be punnis for his father
sayings no more than you do. It is how I
look at it. There'll somebody to say it showed me
(51:19):
proof that this is what he did to me as
a president of at the minority.
Speaker 4 (51:24):
Well how about you know, let's go back to the
nineteen eighties when he called for the execution of the
Central Park five. You know about that, right, Yeah, yeah,
that you know, they're all black and Hispanic and he
called for their execution and they turned out to be innocent.
Speaker 3 (51:43):
Yeah yeah, I mean, you.
Speaker 4 (51:45):
Know that was pretty the first time Donald Trump came
to you know, the two national attention was when he
was sued. You know, he was in the real estate
business with his father and they didn't rent to black people,
and he was sued for that, and you know, I
(52:06):
think it was settled out of court. But it's just
like you know, it's like these one incident after another,
you know, all through the years. Like you know, when
he's talking about shithold countries, you know what countries he
think he's talking about. He's not talking about Sweden and Norway.
Speaker 3 (52:24):
Right, I mean, but I mean again, a lot of this,
I think we're taking our contest. One he's he's New York,
and two he was he was New York is very liberal,
and two three, Blacks do have issues that that that
that are not economically what a person what to invest in.
(52:48):
That's just economics. I'm a black person, and if you
ever looked at listening in my podcast, I recognize that
we got issues. We got issues in regards to how
we carry ourselves to want to be a target of investment.
That's that's that's our issue. And as if I was
(53:08):
on the economic side wanting to invest in an area
for blacks, I would think not twice, but four times
before I do it. That doesn't make me a racist,
not make me a business man. Okay, I mean, so
I'm just saying something's something. I mean I'm not saying
(53:30):
he's not a racist. I just said I haven't seen
any proof of it. Is he human? Does he make mistakes? Yes,
we all do. But I can look at Biden and
his history, and I can look at Obama and his history.
But this is not what we're here to talk about.
But I'm just saying I keep hearing these things about Trump,
and no one has came forth after all these times,
(53:52):
all these years, to bring a smoking gun that this
person was directly and impacted negativity because of his skin
by Donald Trump directly.
Speaker 4 (54:08):
Wow, impacted directly? Well, you know I can I read
about again. The tapes have not been released, but you
know there's been all this talk about when he was
filming The Apprentice that he would use the N word routinely.
Speaker 3 (54:27):
A lot of whites do, but that'll make him racist.
And again, he was in New York. You're a New Yorker,
a lot of whites. He used the inn, the word.
A lot of whites used the N word. Now little
too comfortable with it. I agree, but blacks used the
N word. I don't agree with anyone using the N word.
You can't say it's okay to say in word on
(54:49):
one person and then crucify somebody for saying the in
word on them. It's it's mentally dysfunctional. Again, I'm not
trying to defend Trump. I'm just saying that people are
thinking this out of contact and they give me a
passes to anyone who has a dean in front of
that name. If we could be equally just, we all
(55:11):
be equally just against across the board and called everything
out equally. If m puts the dead wrong, uthererputs the
dead wrong, did both did wrong?
Speaker 4 (55:22):
Well? I wish you were right about Donald Trump. Uh,
you know, not only do I think he's a racist.
I think he's an anti semi even though his daughter
married a Jewish guy that you know that I've I've
heard too many of you know, his subtly anti Semitic cracks.
(55:42):
And I just don't think that what Trump is doing,
whatever he is, that you know he's I think he's
a bigoted man in many many ways. I don't think
what he's doing is good for the country. I think
that if we survive another four years of Donald Trump,
(56:03):
things are gonna be a lot worse economically and in
other ways too than they are now. I mean, why
is he you know, tearing up these Black Lives Matter,
you know, memorials on like the streets of Washington that
just happened the other day. Why are they taking like
(56:23):
all these references to you know, blacks, two black soldiers,
you know, out of the the Pentagon files that they're
just trying to erase all these references to the accomplishments
of blacks and other minorities.
Speaker 3 (56:42):
You know, they've heard about the dependent on papers. I
have heard about that.
Speaker 4 (56:47):
Well google it and and you'll see, like you know,
it's not only blacks, it's like gay people too. One
of the craziest things they did, they had artificial intel legence,
you know, going through all these Pentagon files to remove
stuff that was considered d e I. One of the
(57:08):
things they took out is the Nola gay because of
the word gay. The gay is the airplane that dropped
the A bomb on here on here.
Speaker 3 (57:22):
It's something I mean in regards to the whole elon Musk,
not his creation, because the infrastructure was already there, put
in by Obama. But I mean those those things he
has overshot. I must agree he has overshot. And they
(57:44):
do with the the I everything with the eye doesn't
have to necessarily be bad, and and if he's trying
to do everything with the broad brush, you're gonna hit
some collateral damage. And hopefully he correct those things once
he once he recognized his error. Yeah, I mean, I
(58:09):
mean he should. I mean, I mean normally gay because
this because they have gay in it. But again, we
are in a fallen world, so to expect men in
general to act christianly in the post Christian world, you're
always gonna be disappointed. I don't think Trump watching on
(58:32):
water I think I mean, I'm a Republican myself. I
would never be a Democrat based on the Democratic history.
And if you looked at my videos listening to my
podcast you understand why I have some of your podcasts.
It's just me. But I mean, at the end of
the day, we are gonna be judged by one father
(58:52):
and that point thinks everything will come to surface, and
that's that's that's the way I live my life. In
regards of that, I wish everybody would be equally equally
kind to everybody and be truthfully honest about people's actions
as you do do their history before they espoused harshly
(59:15):
or strongly worded opinions. We always be better off. I'm
not saying I'm right. I could be wrong that that's
why we're having a conversation, you know, to have everything
come out, and conversations are good.
Speaker 4 (59:29):
Democrats are the best democrat. I live here in New York,
you know, democrat. But no, it's good that we could
have a civil conversation. But you just brought up Elon Musk.
I mean, you know, talk about racism. The guy can't
you know, comes from apart like South Africa.
Speaker 3 (59:50):
But a white person comes from South Africa, understand be
a racist. I mean, I don't know, Elon. I know
a lot of white people come from areas that I
mean questions that try to be very good. I know
a lot of good atheists who say save my butt
in many cases. So I treat each person individually and
(01:00:10):
wait till I see the whites of his eyes and
the content of what he does before I make a
judgement on that in the individual. Because some people could
say whites from the South are racist. I know a
lot of whites in the South will save my my
baking a lot quicker than any black in the South.
(01:00:30):
So I look at the individual as an individual and
I don't judge them until I have a conversation with them.
Speaker 4 (01:00:38):
Well, you know, that's the way things should be. But uh,
you know a lot of people prefer not to do that,
and they, you know, they they go by their prejudices
and they paint everything with a broad brush.
Speaker 3 (01:00:50):
Yeah yeah, yeah, or they at least somebody else say
and I was saying a bad idea, support about one
hundred peoples. A hundred people with a bad idea, you know,
just because the majority of people now in the paper
to say something about somebody, and now it becomes popular.
Not the popular is the truth? No longer is it
(01:01:11):
the issue is the truth or not? It's more the
issue is it popular? And that's where we are wanting
to so much difficulty when it comes to the truth
and what is fake news or what's real news? Because
now we don't want to read, we don't want to
do our own objective discoveries. We will go with the
popular word is on the street about something or something
(01:01:32):
you know, which is totally wrong, and you would never
get the real truth if you go on by what
is popular.
Speaker 4 (01:01:39):
I agree with that, And you know, it gets harder
and harder to figure out what's going on because there's like,
you know, so much misinformation disinformation out there. I mean,
I read the New York Times every day with like
many grains of salt. It's just like some of that
(01:02:01):
leaves me, what are they trying to say here? This
doesn't quite sound right? Something and more. Thing about Trump,
You're from New York. He's from New York.
Speaker 3 (01:02:11):
Before he turned Republican, Blacks loved him.
Speaker 4 (01:02:17):
Before he turned the Republican, he was to anybody a
Democrat Hi, And before he returned he turned Republican, he
was a Democrats.
Speaker 3 (01:02:26):
So yeah, So when did he turned turned out to
be the day the devil we incardinated? Was it before
he returned Republican? After he told republican? I mean, if
he was a bad guy against against blacks, I'm quite
sure Oprah did some research on this guy. I'm quite
sure I'm Al Sharpton did some research on this guy.
So my point is when when is the truth about Trump?
(01:02:47):
Is it before he became a Republican or after he
became a Republican.
Speaker 4 (01:02:51):
I think the truth about Trump is you have to
go back to the very beginning. The thing that I
was just talking about before, when he was you know,
working with his father at first in the real estate business,
and that lawsuit happened when it was proven that they
would not rent to black people.
Speaker 3 (01:03:08):
Right, but but but but but we already agreed that
his father was a racist. So if you still working
up under his father, that we got to look at
his father. That not that Sariah Trump. I don't I
don't notice story, you're familiar with it. But it sounds
like he was working under his father. If that's the case,
then you look at that, look at that Ross Dan Trump.
(01:03:28):
And also he's a businessman. I probably wasn't rent to
blacks in New York this because of economics.
Speaker 4 (01:03:36):
Well, you know, like you just said, you got to
take it, you know, individual case. Yeah, you know, I
mean there's a a black middle class in New York
for sure, and there it's just you know, it's New York.
Speaker 3 (01:03:51):
Well, I don't know, you know.
Speaker 4 (01:03:53):
There's some pretty white neighborhoods, but you know, New York
is a well integrated city, though you know there certainly
are enclaves of blacks and whites.
Speaker 3 (01:04:03):
Yeah. Yeah, And there's some areas that if you're a
businessman looking for an investment, you want invested in rather
be black or white. This based on the numbers.
Speaker 4 (01:04:14):
Okay, yeah, you take you know each person individually. You know,
you run their name, you're renting to somebody, You run
their numbers through the you know, the credit agencies, and
you see what's going on, and you know if they
have good credit, you rent to them.
Speaker 3 (01:04:29):
They're good, right, right, right. But we got way off
of something. But hey, I'm always That's what I said.
I like flowing and I think we learn a little
bit more about each other. I think my my, my
listeners and your listeners will also is very interesting, I
guess just learning about not only about Linen and your
(01:04:52):
take on his life after life, but also your your
new your book about how things were back in New
York back then, very eye opening. Me not being from
New York, I didn't know the history of flat bus all.
I remember this this, this this movie Flat Bush with
(01:05:16):
I think Sylvester Salon was there, The Lords of Bush.
Speaker 4 (01:05:19):
Yes, yes, that was that was somebody's fantasy.
Speaker 3 (01:05:24):
That That's why I said when you mentioned that it
was more to you, June. I remember Jews in the movie.
So that's I was taking off. I like, oh, there
was Jews. The flat bus uh so, yeah, so we
definitely learned something about you. But tell people how they
keep in contact with you, how they're gonna follow you,
how they can reach out to you. Uh yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:05:45):
The best way, well, I'm on all this, well not
all this this social media. Uh you could find me
on Facebook, you could find me on threads. That the
best way if want to contact me, you know, learn
about my books, the best thing to do is go
to my website, which is Robert rosennyc dot com. And uh,
(01:06:11):
you know, you could write to me. I love to
hear from people who've read any of my books. And
you know, I mean, if you want me to come
on your podcast or you know, you want to interview
me for something, you know, just write to me through
my you know, through my my website. And I'm just
always happy to hear from people, and you know I'm responsive,
so uh you know, I look forward to hearing from
(01:06:33):
anybody who might be listening to this.
Speaker 3 (01:06:35):
That's a definitely appreciate your time, Robert, and definitely reach
out to me for any reason. Definitely, I'm here here
to learn more about you. If you if you want
to come back on and talk about to your most
recent escapades definitely and open to that as well.
Speaker 4 (01:06:53):
Yeah, my most recent escapades is I'm barely sitting in
a room essentially sitting in a room, you know, writing
a new book, and I air myself out every day
and take a walk.
Speaker 3 (01:07:05):
He may you be blessed. I'll talk to you.
Speaker 4 (01:07:07):
So Okay, it's been a pleasure. Take care you two.
Speaker 2 (01:07:23):
Thanks for listening to today's show, and don't forget to
like and subscribe to this podcast, and look for Project
Thirdeye Open on your favorite social media platforms. Check out
our web page at projectthirdiopen dot com and that's third
I with the letter I projectthirdiyopen dot com. Drop us
(01:07:43):
a note at tonyel at projectthirdiopen dot com. That's tonyel
at projectthirdiyopen dot com. As you wait for our next
podcast to drop, don't take anything we've satisfact. Instead, do
your own homework, make up your own mind, then take
action until next time. Be blessed, be good, and be free.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.