The Transformative Power of Suffering: Self-Growth, Finding Purpose & Navigating Life | Terry Tucker - Quantum Theory Podcast

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
And you look at him, you're like, "I know you could kill me with the eraser of a pencil,

(00:03):
15 different ways."
And the seals kind of have this, they call it the 40% rule, which basically says that if
you're done, if you're at the end of your row, if you can't go on, that you're only
at 40% of your maximum, and you still have another 60% left in reserve to give to yourself.
40%, I'm not even, I'm not even in half of my capability, but it's our brains that

(00:26):
tell us, "Hey, this hurts.
It's uncultible, knock it off, and we listen to our brains."
But the only way you're going to grow.
Welcome to the Quantum Theory Podcast.

(00:48):
Today we are joined by Terry Tucker, a former D1 college basketball player, police officer,
squat hostage negotiator, and cancer warrior.
He's now an acclaimed author and speaker on topics such as personal excellence and purpose,
with his most recent book being Sustainable Excellence, which will be a large focus of
today's conversation.

(01:10):
But without further ado, Terry, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.
Well, Jared, thanks for having me on, I'm really looking forward to talking with you today.
Awesome, likewise.
So I love the kick things off, speaking of excellence.
One of the things that really caught my eye and it kind of start off a little abstract here
and to get some ideas on some kind of basic principles.
One of the things that was really interesting was you compared excellence to beauty and the

(01:33):
sense that it is relative, similar to beauty being that of the eye of the beholder.
And I thought that was interesting because I think the common connotation of excellence
is a very hard line benchmark and standard that we all kind of feel is this kind of rigid.
So I'd kind of lay some fundamentals here.
Kind of get to the bottom of the nature of purpose and it's kind of relative property if you
will.

(01:54):
Sure.
So you know, you read book called Sustainable Excellence and people will, you know, ask you
what excellence means and you're like, well, I don't know.
It's like, what do you mean?
Road to play?
How could you not?
How could you not know what an excellence is?
But to me, excellence is in the eye of the beholder.
You and I may look at a sports team or a piece of music or a piece of art or something
like that and you may say, man, I think that's excellent.

(02:16):
And I may look at it and say, yeah, I think it's good, but I just don't think it's excellent.
So I think we, we have to decide for ourselves what excellence means.
And that kind of leads us to what is our purpose in life.
And I, you know, we all have a different purpose.
We all have a different calling, I guess, a, a Y mission, whatever you want to, you want

(02:38):
to, however you want to define it.
But so many people I think never, ever think about what it means to be great at something
purposeful in life.
We just kind of muddle through and I'll give you a quick story.
There's a, there's an entrepreneur by the name of Ed Mylett.
And in 2023, USA Today, Joe's is the author of the year.

(03:02):
You know it.
Okay.
Yeah.
And he talks about the four types of people in the world.
And when I first heard him say this, I'm like, all right, I don't know if this is true.
I don't know if I believe this.
Let me think about it.
But let me just tell you what he talks about.
So the first group are the unmotivated.
And he said, that's the vast majority of people you will encounter in your life.

(03:22):
The second group he talks about are the motivated where it's kind of a carrot and stick approach
to life.
If I do this, I will get that.
He says this kind of low level works for a lot of people that have very happy and successful
light.
The third group he talks about are the inspirational people, the word inspiration coming from two

(03:43):
words in spirit.
So if you're an inspirational person, you move people with your energy.
And then the last group he talks about are the aspirational people where people aspire to
be like you.
That's a given a talk or something like that.
And depending on the audience, I'll tell that story.
I'll be like, I show a hand.

(04:04):
How many people are unmotivated?
And nobody ever raises their hand.
Right.
It feels like all of that category.
But I think so many people do, which then leads to people that if you have just a little bit
of grit, it's amazing what you can do with your life.
Wow.
I love that.
Yes.
And I am familiar with Ed Mylet and his whole max out mantra.

(04:24):
I love all of his work as well.
You know, it's super applicable.
And I think kind of segueing on the idea of purpose.
You know, one of the things that I recall you mentioning the book as well is living by
purpose and not living by job or by career.
And you know, one of the things I think that's so challenging is, you know, really figuring

(04:45):
out a way to structure our lives around purpose.
So let's say that, you know, we do understand that, you know, this certain thing, helping other
people in this one way is really our calling.
But I think there's so many challenges that come up along the way like paying the bills
and staying financially afloat and so many, you know, taking care of the family and, you

(05:06):
know, I'd love to get some insight on how you kind of maybe have even suggestions or insights
or even words of wisdom for how people can, you know, surmount those challenges and really
create a life by design in that way.
Sure.
So I guess, let me go back just for a second and talk about, I think a lot of times we'd
look at purpose as a singular thing.

(05:28):
There's one thing I'm supposed to do.
And I can't speak for anybody else, but I can speak for myself.
For me, that word is "pen plural."
It's been "purposes."
I think when I was younger, my purpose was to be an athlete.
I played college basketball.
And then as I got to be an adult, I always felt my purpose was to be in law enforcement.

(05:48):
I had other jobs, but I always felt my purpose was law enforcement.
And now, in all honesty, as I'm probably coming towards the end of my life, I think my purpose
has shifted again to put as much goodness, positivity, motivation, love back into the world
with whatever time I have left.
So how do you find your purpose?
I think you look at what your unique gifts and talents are.

(06:09):
We all have, I mean, if you told me Terry, you're going to be an accountant and you're going
to work with numbers, Jared, I would fail miserably.
And I would probably be miserable at that job.
That's not my forte.
That's not what I work at.
Or that's something I'm good at.
So I would suggest people find what they're good at.

(06:29):
And the other thing I'll say is this, we're not successful in a vacuum.
Nobody does this by themselves.
I would suggest if, if nobody remembers anything else I say for this entire podcast, remember
this.
This I think is incredibly important.
It's more important who you work with and who you work for than it is the work that

(06:52):
you do.
Find people that care about you, find people that are willing to invest in you, find people
that want to see you succeed, hit your wagon to those people and climb your mountains together.
So find like-minded people.
If you're hanging around smart people, you're going to be smarter.
If you're hanging around wealthy people, you're going to be wealthier.

(07:15):
Conversely, if you're hanging around people with drama and it's all about them, that's
what you're going to end up being.
And good people emulate what they're doing.
Use your unique gifts and talents and I think you're well on your way to finding your purpose.
Hmm.
So bridging that, you know, given that we're kind of starting from a foundation of unique

(07:36):
gifts and talents, do you think that we are somewhat endowed with certain gifts that
are- we're supposed to discover which is our purpose?
Do you think that those gifts that we have is kind of even one and the same with our
purpose and it's kind of our even job to discern how we can even use those towards- towards
a positive benefit because it sounds like really the foundation is what you are kind

(07:59):
of naturally gifted with, if you will.
I would absolutely agree with that statement.
I think if you look at somebody like Victor Frankl who wrote man search, remaining was a Holocaust
survivor during World War II, he talks about how we should not look at our life in the
abstract that every one of us has a purpose, has a reason that we were put on the face of
this earth and almost goes so far as to say we have a moral obligation to find that purpose

(08:25):
in life and to live it.
So I would absolutely say, you know, we're just- you're just not here kind of skipping
around, you know, and seeing how it goes.
But the other thing I'll say about that is this and I heard this story, Jesse Itzler, I
don't know if he still is, but he was.
He's an entrepreneur at one point in his own part of the Atlanta Hawks and the National

(08:46):
Basketball Association.
And he's married to a woman by the name of Sarah Blakely and Sarah Blakely started a woman's
undergarment company called Spacks and tells the story.
He said when she started that company, she had one prototype and $5,000.
She had been a door to door facsimile salesman, a fac salesperson.

(09:08):
We use facs as any more.
That's how I'm going to go that was.
But his point was she really didn't know anything about marketing, about human resources,
about legal, about manufacturing, about distribution.
But his comment was, if she would have waited until she understood every single thing along
that journey, he said I guarantee you somebody else would have come up with that idea and

(09:30):
would have run with it.
So his point was wherever you are in trying to figure out your purpose, don't hold back
and say, oh, you know, when I get this or when I understand that, then I'll do it.
Jump in right now and figure it out as you go along.
I love that.
Yeah, it's the kind of the old adage that the conditions will never be perfect.

(09:52):
And it's the journey itself, which is the gift.
That is the process of what creates you into that person.
And that gets to a point that you mentioned in the sense that suffering is one of life's
greatest teachers.
And on that path, there will invariably be a lot of suffering.
As you don't know, legal and accounting and building these types of partnerships and you

(10:17):
know that you're going to lose a bunch of money probably several times.
You might even get closer, actually go out of business and have to try again, right?
And in that journey is such immense suffering.
But as you mentioned, it's one of life's greatest teachers.
And I think that's even a perennial philosophy, even look at Buddhism.
Their whole thing is, you know, life is essentially suffering, not in like a morbid way, but

(10:37):
you know, in a constructive way.
And I want to quote you from the book here, because I really felt that this was profound.
You said, quote, I lost 50 pounds during my interferon therapy.
I was always nauseous, fatigued and chilled.
My ability to taste food diminished and my body continually ate.
This misery went on for 1,660 days.

(11:02):
Wow.
And I'm sure you can track the number of days because each one was that distinctly
challenging.
And obviously that is a magnitude of suffering that most including myself can't even wrap
her heads around.
But I would love to just to hear your perspective given that background and what you've
surmounted, what you gained out of suffering through such intense trials and tribulations.

(11:26):
Sure.
So 2012, I was diagnosed with this very rare form of cancer, rare form of melanoma and
was told one appeared on the bottom of my foot.
And they removed the part in my foot and they all removed all my left nose.
And then my doctor said, you'll probably be dead in two years because we have nothing
to offer you other than surgery.

(11:47):
If it's somewhere we can cut it out, cut it out.
If it's not, well, sorry, there's nothing we can do for it.
So in the interim, she put me on this drug called interferon.
And I took a weekly interferon injection and it gave me terrible flu-like symptoms for
two to three days every week after each injection.
And during that time, I literally, I was so sick of being sick that I prayed to die.

(12:12):
It was like, okay, God, I kind of felt there were two camps.
There was the living and there was the not dying.
And I was definitely in the not dying.
I was really living.
I was just not dying.
I wasn't contributing to my family or at least I didn't feel I was.
I wasn't contributing to my friends.
Sometimes a good day was literally, I'm going to get out of bed and I'm going to make

(12:32):
it to the sofa.
That's a good day.
And you think about that.
That's really not living.
And so I have a very strong faith in God.
So it was like, okay, God, just take me down.
Let me die.
Let my family get on with their life.
But God didn't do that for me, Jared.
But He did give me the strength to continue to go on day after day after day.

(12:55):
And today, I believe my purpose going kind of back to what we're talking about.
I believe my purpose is to use my infirmity, to use my malignancy to show people God's love,
his mercy, his kindness, his peace, his healing.
That's what I'm here for.
I should have died a long time, several times during this journey.

(13:16):
And I did.
And I think he's using me at this point.
As far as I'm concerned, I don't care when I die, I don't care how I die.
What I care about is am I doing my purpose right now.
Wow.
Wow.
And I definitely resonate with what I call seeing in retrospect.
It's seeing how things from the past create this, I guess, connection to what your future

(13:44):
trajectory is.
And how should we use those things and transmute those experiences to give back as gifts to
others?
And that's kind of connected to suffering.
It's you are sort of gaining something to experience which you can then go give back to others.
And I love the aspect of your thought process around God really being really involved in

(14:10):
that situation.
And I think one of the things that you talked about as well, even when you're going to go
quit your basketball team and you got that letter from your dad, I mean, literally on
the way to quit and you said you never got the letter from him before ever.
And on the walk there, you stopped by and got it and just completely altered the course

(14:32):
of your life.
You know, I'm curious to hear your thoughts and I feel like I might know somewhat of the
answer, but how involved do you think that God or creator, however you want to conceptualize
that creator or that force?
How intimately involved do you think that God is in our lives in that way?
I mean, for me, I think he's very involved.

(14:52):
I think he wants to be as involved as a showleta.
You know, I mean, we always think we've got a search for God.
I don't think you have a search for him.
I think he's already here.
You just got one of him.
You know, it's kind of like that.
Right.
No, it's like, hey, I'm here.
We let that in.
And so, yeah, I think it was really divine intervention.
I mean, I was going to give up a full college scholarship and go home with no plan, no

(15:16):
nothing.
I never quit anything in my life.
I was going to quit this and then I get this seven page letter, handwritten letter from my
father that basically said, I love you.
I am proud of you, but pull your head out of your butt is basically what he said to me.
You know, you can do this.
I was homesick when I went into the army, you know, back in the 1950s and things like that.

(15:41):
Everybody's been through this.
You're not unique.
You are so in your head right now that you think the whole world revolves around you.
It doesn't.
He said, he didn't tell me.
He said, you called home seven times since you've been at college and now one, since you
are asked, how are my brothers doing?
How's my mom doing?
How my grandparents doing?
How's my girlfriend doing?
You've never asked anything.
You are so into you.

(16:03):
So that was really the first time that I kind of felt that God was like, yeah, hey, I put
this out there and then I turn this into my book.
You know, it's like, I never expected to write a book to you.
Never wanted to write a book.
There's kind of an old joke that says, but we talk to God.
It's called prayer.
When God talks to us, it's called schizophrenia.

(16:24):
So God loves that.
You know, but I think as I said, what God did with the book is he put enough people in
my path that said, Terry, you should write a book.
Terry, you should write a book.
Terry, you should write a book.
And I think I'm older now, wiser, more understanding that when these things happen, it's God's way
of saying, what?

(16:45):
I want you to do this.
You're free, well, you can say no, you know what?
I don't want to write a book.
I don't want to do that.
I'm going to quit college.
I'm going to do whatever I want.
I'm telling you what I'd like you to do.
Will you do that for me?
So, you know, it's happened more than once in my life and the older I get, the more I
pay attention to it.
Absolutely.
And I think really, you know, these messages, I think you've even said this in the book as

(17:07):
well, you they come as whispers, right?
Not as these calamities and shouts, right?
It's only in those moments of stillness and where you're really receptive and open to
that is where you can then really get that insight or get that guidance, would be aware
of even what's being what's being shown to you.
So no, I totally, I totally resonate with that.

(17:28):
And I think one thing you mentioned too is about the idea of being so self centered and
that state you're in.
And one thing in the book, you mentioned is the importance of being part of something
bigger than yourself.
Now, you need to quote you as well before I move on to the point, as you said, quote, "And
true love is sacrificing self for others and is the most important thing in the world."

(17:53):
And the idea of that we are here as a collective and it's about not just the self.
And would you even say that purpose is inexorably connected to the broader whole or being part
of something?
Can you have purpose uneven individual level or is it de facto something of service
to a broader whole of that makes sense?

(18:15):
It does make sense.
And I, yes, I think it is.
I am of the generation who kind of grew up with Fred Rogers, Mr. Rogers, Mr. Rogers,
and I never heard.
Yeah.
And there's a great story about Fred Rogers when he died.
I mean, he educated so many young people on public television, including me when I was
grown up.

(18:35):
And when he died in 2003, his family was going through his effects and they found his wallet.
And inside his wallet was a scrap piece of paper, which Mr. Rogers had written four simple
words.
And those words were life is for service.
I think that is so important.

(18:56):
That's what life is about.
There's a great, there's a great, I'll call it a fable.
I don't think it actually happened.
But it's a great fable about Alexander the great, about how probably the biggest conqueror,
the biggest megalomaniac in the world of all times was die.

(19:16):
And he calls his counselors together and he says, hey, I want you to carry out my final
through with wishes.
He said, my first wish is I want only my doctors to carry my coffin to the great.
My second wish is I want the road to the cemetery paved with gold and silver and precious stones.
And my third wish is that my hands be hanging out of my coffin.
And one of his counselors stepped up and said, excuse me, you're Alexander the great.

(19:40):
You're the most powerful man in the known world.
Those don't seem like really big grandiose wishes.
Why did you come up with these wishes?
He said, well, number one, I want my doctors to carry my coffin to the great because I
want people to understand that no doctor heals anybody.
They just help the body to heal itself.
So people should pay attention to how they're treating their body, what they're putting

(20:03):
in it, even their mind.
You know, the mind is part of what are you putting in?
You putting good food in your body.
You get good stuff out.
You put good stuff in your mind.
You get good stuff out.
He said, my second wish is that I spent my entire life conquering people, getting money,
power, importance, influence.
And yet none of that is going with me beyond the grave.

(20:25):
And then he said, the third part of my hands hanging out of my coffin is I want people
to understand that I came into this world empty handed and I leave it the same way.
So Jared, I would say life is not about what you can get.
It's about what you can give in your life with your unique gifts and talents.

(20:46):
And that's an incredible story and analogy.
It's unfortunate that it takes many people to get to the very, very, very end of the line
to then realize that their efforts were an entirely futile because it does no bearing on
the hereafter or it was just a purely selfish, you know, many, many cases material pursuit.

(21:08):
And I think the sooner people can snap out of it and enter a purpose driven type of path
is is where that course is completely altered.
We don't end up like Alexander the great sitting there saying, well, I just wasted eight
or nine decades, you know, or however long you lived in my life.
That was pointless, right?
And even back to a little bit, would you even say that sort of the equation of purpose is

(21:34):
how you can use your gifts to positively affect others?
Could it be to set the still down that simply?
I honestly think it can't.
And I know I've seen this and I bet you have to in your life that so many people out there
kind of feel that they're born empty and that when they get out of school and get into

(21:57):
life, whatever that looks like from them, that they feel their job then is to fill up that
empty cell.
I've got to make the one who drive the nicest car, living the nicest house, you know, have
all the latest gadgets and gizmos.
And honestly, Jared, what I found is it's just the opposite.
We're not born empty.
We're born full with whatever we need to be successful.

(22:19):
However, you define that word in your life already inside us.
We just need to find it, pull it out and use it for our benefit.
So our job in life should not be to fill ourselves out.
Our job in life should be to empty ourselves out.
Certainly, you know, with our unique gifts and tout, certainly for our benefit, but also
for the benefit of our families, of our friends and of our communities.

(22:43):
And when you make that paradigm shift in your life, especially in today's society where,
you know, all kinds of advertisements are telling you, you know, if you have this car, if you drink
this drinker, if you eat this food, you're going to be important, special, influential,
whatever.
None of that matters.
None of that matters.
You look at the greatest person in the world who I think is Jesus Christ.

(23:04):
It was all about giving.
He was poor.
He didn't have a lot of things.
But yet, he was the ultimate as far as I'm concerned.
He made this.
He made all of us.
And he's saying, love each other, care for each other.
And you mentioned it.
You know, we talk, guys don't talk about love.
You know, it's not right.
We don't talk about love.
But I'm not talking about romantic love.

(23:25):
I'm talking about love in willing the good of the other.
Jared, I want what's best for you.
I want what you think is best for you and what God thinks is best for you.
That's what love is all about.
And how often do we ever do that?
Right.
No, 100% and that kind of gets my physics mind fired up.

(23:46):
Other side of my platform because love is one of the highest frequency emotional states
that we have.
If you're familiar with any of that type of research in terms of that realm, but it connects
directly, I think our core essence is love.
And when you operate from that space, that's really the true nature.
Everything else is a lack.
You don't have this.

(24:07):
You don't have that.
You're not good enough for this.
And that's the consumer, as you were just saying, the consumer culture, it's everything
is outside of you versus you being entirely full and just overflowing in a sense of service.
So I fully, I fully agree where you're coming from with that.
And one of the things I think would be useful to even discuss too, just for maybe even like

(24:29):
the young men and women out there listening and trying to find their purpose.
And they definitely have a similar challenge on many people to what you experience, which
is when you are getting out of college and going into the work world, you want to be
a police officer.
You knew it your bones.
It was unquestionable, but it's so hard to overcome that parental, even potentially

(24:51):
father figure sort of control or even just knowing that they want what's best for you
and that they love you.
And who am I?
To just completely side swipe that, but you know something's there.
What kind of advice would you give to even the younger folks about how to kind of navigate
those waters and there's a conflict between what they know in their heart versus kind of

(25:14):
what the top down pressure against that kind of passion is?
Sure.
So for people that don't really kind of understand my story.
If you look at my resume, it kind of looks like a super ball went off in the room.
You know, it's just got a whole lot of watch.
But there is a backstory.
If you understand the backstory, the resume makes more sense.
My grandfather, my paternal grandfather, my dad's dad was a Chicago police officer from

(25:38):
1924 to 1954.
And in 1933, when my dad was one year old, my grandfather was shot in the line of duty with
his own guns, not a serious injury, but shot in the ankle.
But my dad always remembered the story is growing up that my grandmother told of that knock
on the door of Mrs. Tucker Grab your son come with us, your husband spent shot.

(25:59):
So you can imagine when I expressed an interest in sort of following in my grandfather's footsteps,
my dad was absolutely, you're going to college, you're going to major in business, you're
going to get out, you're going to get a great job, get married, have 2.4 kids and live happily
or after.
Right.
That's the life my father wanted me to live.
That's not the life I felt I was supposed to live.
And I guess what I would say to young people today and I am so proud that I did this in

(26:25):
my life is never let your dream die.
When I mentioned when I graduated from college, my father was dying of cancer.
So I had a choice.
I could have said, "Hey dad, know your dying.
Sorry about that.
I'm going to go blaze my own trail."
Or out of love and respect for you, I will do what you want me to do.
So I had my first two jobs in business because that's what my dad wanted me to do.

(26:48):
And I started to judge her and I did whatever good son did away until my dad passed away and
I followed my own dreams.
But I am so proud that I never settled for what I was supposed to do.
I knew I was supposed to do this.
I didn't know when I was going to do it, but I knew at some point in time I was going to
do it.
And I did it when I was 37 years old.
And 37 years old is pretty old to be getting into law enforcement to get into that kind

(27:11):
of work.
It's incredible.
You just hung on to that for so long.
And I think that's just a testament to what purpose is.
It's almost inescapable to an extent.
You may not have never act on it, but it'll always be there.
And I think that's almost a feature of purpose.
It's almost a signal.
If you've been decades down the road and you can't let something go, you need to pay attention

(27:34):
to that.
And you got to investigate that.
And you're new.
So you're a certain case, even those that are less certain.
It's listen to that just constant chirping like, "Hey, I love this.
Really love to do this.
Really can help people with this.
Really inspired by this."
And it's just something you constantly kind of come back to here and there.
I think it's just more encouraging for people to kind of take heed from that and kind

(27:57):
of see some texture to what that kind of looks like in their life.
Yeah.
I mean, like you said, my dad didn't do that for me or to me because he didn't like me.
I mean, my dad was my hero.
He died when he was in his 50s right after I graduated from college.
And it killed me.

(28:18):
But he did this because he wanted what he believed was something better.
So if you're out there and you've got those parents or those aunts and uncles or brothers
or sisters or whatever, you should do this.
I guess I would look at them and say, "What makes you say that?"
And see what they're actually.

(28:38):
They don't live in your body.
They don't know the thoughts in your mind.
They don't know the talents.
Well, some of them do, I guess.
You know, the talents that you have and it's hard for people you love that are older, that
want your best interests in mind to kind of go against them.
But if that's what you believe is in your heart, is in your soul, I would tell you to pursue

(28:58):
it.
You know, maybe not today and maybe not tomorrow, maybe not even in the month.
But at some point, don't let the dream die.
That's why you're here.
I would hate to get up in front of my creator at the end of my life and say, "Yeah, you
gave me these unique gifts and talents and I felt that tug in my heart that said I should
do this and I ignored.
I can't imagine standing in front of my creator and saying that."

(29:21):
We are irreplicable and each unique and will never be in the same exact form ever again.
We are one of one like a snowflake, literally.
And it's to disregard that.
You are literally an embodiment of the creator.

(29:42):
And that's, I kind of go back to physics a little bit because the holographic principle
and we are a fractals.
We have all the attributes of the creator because we're kind of a piece of that.
And so we have these endowed gifts and it's the biggest travesty to completely sideswiped
those and opt for a life of just the basics or as Edmai Lett said, that the unmotive

(30:07):
created or even maybe motivated at best and when the potential is just so massive because
the real potential in your life comes from a result of acting on purpose because that's
the path I believe that's laid out for you.
Your real path is the one where you follow the purpose and that's where the goal on the
other side of the tunnel is in every type of category, monetary, spiritual, relationship,

(30:30):
wise, all of that.
And I think that free will, I think you touched on this as well.
It's not that there's just this infinite choice but it's that there are different versions
that we can choose and each decision brings new possibilities and new decisions.
And I think our free will is, are we going to recognize those things and then take action

(30:51):
on those because that's really where the prize is.
Or are we going to opt for just these lower levels of existence?
Yeah, I mean, small minds and weak people.
I think kill big dreams.
You know, going back to people you don't ever think about what it needs to be great at something

(31:12):
purposeful in their life.
Well, a lot of times I talk to young people.
It's like, whatever you're thinking, think bigger.
Think bigger.
Think bigger.
You know, I mean, we like to say, okay, this is good and it's comfortable.
And so I'm good with it.
But if you thought bigger, oh yeah, that's kind of scary.
But I'll tell you right now at the end of your life, if there is something in your heart,

(31:35):
something in your soul, if you believe you're supposed to do, but it scares you, I'm going
to sit here and tell you, go ahead and do it.
Because at the end of your life, the things you're going to regret are not going to be those
things you did.
They're going to be those things you didn't do.
And by then it's going to be too late to go back and do it.
100% well said.

(31:55):
I'd love to kind of now, you know, shift gears a little bit.
Because I know you've been just straight into the philosophy, which I love.
I'd love this to get, you know, a little bit of kind of a narrative from your end about
kind of because we touched on the police force.
I want to give people a little better idea on, you know, you came back around to that
purpose.
You know, what did that process look like of, you know, entering that path that you

(32:18):
had put on, put off, excuse me for so long and kind of what was that process like?
Sure.
Number one, I took a whole lot more tile and all on the police academy than my younger counterparts.
So my wife and I were living in California and then this is kind of how it started and we
were living in Santa Barbara and I got a, there was a circular that came in the mail for Santa

(32:40):
Barbara City College.
And Jared, I never looked at those sticks.
They always went in the recycling.
Right.
I'd lunch one day.
I'm sitting, I'm kind of leaving through it.
And there's a class and the class is like, you pass the class and you can apply to be a
reserve police officer with any agency within the state.
So I, I'm sitting at dinner with my wife one that night and I'm like, hey, what do you think
about this class?

(33:01):
So what do you think about?
I said, I'd like to take, I'd like to try and see if I can pass it and see where we go
from there.
She said, what are they going to do?
You know, I will support you.
Absolutely.
Go do that.
So was a night class.
I was a customer service manager at the time for an academic, academic publishing company.
Well, I passed the class.
I applied to Santa Barbara PD and they took, so I was a reserve police officer.

(33:22):
I'd worked my customer service job all week.
Fronnie and I would come home and I would put on my uniform and I'd go to roll call and
I'd work from seven and at nine till seven in the morning.
And my wife tells the story better than I do.
She said, you would come in Saturday morning, exhausted because I hadn't slept in well over
24 hours.
Geez.
With this big smile on your face.

(33:43):
And she said, I knew that that was what you were supposed to do.
And shortly after that, our daughter was born.
We moved to Cincinnati, Ohio and I said to her again, I said, look, I want to do this full
time.
I want to go to the police academy.
I want to, you know, be a sworn officer and all that.
Well, you support me.
Absolutely.
Go ahead and do it.

(34:03):
And that started, you know, I mean, I was an undercover drug cop.
I was on the SWAT team.
It was, I couldn't get enough of this is what I was supposed to do.
And it had been 37 years.
And now I'm finally getting this opportunity to do it.
I'm so excited.
I was like a kidney candy store.
Right.
What's the support of my family that really grounded me, that allowed me to do that?

(34:27):
And you know, there were a lot of times it's like, come on, we're going out to the bar after,
you know, a shift or after a SWAT call.
It's like, no, I love you guys.
I would lay down my life for you, but I'm going home.
Because that was my sanctuary.
That was where I recharged the batteries.
Those are the people that love me unconditionally.
So that answers your question, but that's kind of it.

(34:48):
It does.
No, absolutely.
And I think that's a great segue as well.
And how important the people around you are when it comes to being able to enact your
purpose.
There was one actually quote that you said, quote, I would argue that peace, simplicity,
and serenity of your life, provide you the fostering backdrop to lead your uncommon and extraordinary

(35:09):
life.
And it's interesting because so many parallels I've found in my own personal journey is,
like the fertile soil, right?
If you have people and your immediate realities, even like your home life who don't believe in
you or say, get your regular job or, you know, that, you know, whatever the situation might
be, how critical that that support structure is to be able to kind of have all variables

(35:33):
isolated.
So your energy is not being pulled and leaked and down in different directions so you can
really propel forward in that purpose.
I'd love to, in this instance, kind of here in your experience, how crucial your partner
is specifically when it comes to being able to step into your purpose.

(35:54):
Yeah, for me, and it was, it was absolutely important.
I mean, when we lived in California, we had no family out there.
It was just she and I.
And then she got pregnant and we had our daughter.
And that was really the impetus to move back to the Midwest because we had no support system
when we were in California.
But she did support me.

(36:14):
I mean, so when I was on SWAT and, you know, sometimes it was hard.
I worked the night shift my entire career.
And we would sit down Sunday night.
She'd make a nice meal and your daughter and I would sit down.
And when we were on SWAT, we carried pagers.
That's how long ago this was and the pager would go off.
And you could just, you could just look in her eyes like seriously.

(36:37):
I would, they'd make this nice meal and you got to go.
Yeah, I kind of do.
You know, it was like with SWAT or when I was in the drug unit.
I just didn't sign up for that.
It was like, look, this is an opportunity.
Will you support me in this?
You understand, you know, this may be a little more dangerous and things like that.
Yes, I will support you.

(36:58):
And when it came time for me to get out of law enforcement, it was because she lost her
job in Cincinnati and found another one in Houston.
And so it was you supported me through all this.
Now it's my turn to support you and say, okay, it's time for us to move on.
It's time for me to find something else.
So our whole life has been about, I will support you.

(37:20):
I will be there for you.
And the other thing I will say about this is we have one child, a daughter.
And I can tell you, and this probably wasn't really smart, but my family was always number
one.
I love being a cop, but they, you know, my faith, my family and my friends always before
what I did for a living.
And there were times where it's like, I'm going to my daughter's piano recital.

(37:41):
I'm going to her, you know, third grade play.
I'm even though I'm working nights, I'm going to give up sleep because that's how important
this is to me.
And there were many nights I would go to work, not many, but enough nights that I would go
to work, you know, on four hours of sleep and I'm carrying a gun and I'm making decisions
about what other people's lives might look like and fix like that.

(38:04):
So you've got a balance, it's a balancing act.
And without my wife, I would not have been happy being a cop and being married and not have
her support.
It wouldn't have been fun.
Well, yeah, I think I can absolutely see how critical that is because if the person that's
the closest to you isn't all in, you're not going to get very far.

(38:27):
You know, and it's actually the opposite.
Not only do you get further, you get probably exponentially further.
I think that the sum's greater than its parts in that way when you truly have a partner
that is fully in support of your mission.
I think it does something even greater in terms of your fervor towards that mission.
And I think one thing too I wanted to touch on, I think it's important for people to kind

(38:47):
of understand is, you know, purpose is messy.
I think people expect like this divine light to hit them and say like, this is what you're
supposed to do with your life, you know.
And, you know, as you were explaining, I mean, you're 24 hours no sleep.
You're doing the night classes, you know, you're working your job.
You're making all this happen because you're creating a life that can be centered around

(39:11):
your purpose.
And I think, you know, it's important for people to understand that it's, it's, it's
some, a lot of times not pretty.
It is hard.
You know, it's, it's not going to be some, you know, golden road just, you know, paved
out front of you.
You know, God or the creator is going to, is going to put you in the position and say,
hey, here is your pamphlet, you know, as you received to the mail, here you go.

(39:31):
And now it's up to you to, to do that work and to make it happen.
So I think it's just kind of understanding, understanding that dynamic if you agree with
that statement.
Oh, I absolutely what.
And, you know, we, we like to think.
And this is so not true.
We like to think that our life is linear.
You know, we started a, and we work and we work and we work and we get to see whatever

(39:54):
that ends up in.
But life isn't linear.
I mean, you know, you work hard and then you plateau.
And I, and I learned this in basketball early, you know, you work really hard, but then you
like stagnate.
You know, it's like, I'm working my butt off, but I'm not getting any better.
And then you keep working harder.
And then you worse.
And you're like, what am I doing?
How can I get that worse?
You know, but then you keep working and maybe you get a little better and then you plateau

(40:16):
again and then you get worse.
But the direction is always positive.
It may not always be positive, but you're moving where you're supposed to be.
It's just not a straight line.
It's up, down, up, down, up, down plateau, up, down, up, up, up, plateau, plateau, up,
down.
But as long as you keep working at it, you will eventually get to where you want to

(40:37):
be.
I think you mentioned that earlier.
It's, it's not the destination.
It's everything in between where you start and the destination.
It's really what life is about.
Absolutely.
And that gets one of your key points to as well.
And the book is about this mental toughness and not being so emotionally discouraged by
failure.
And reality failure is just a clue of where of getting closer to the right answer, right?

(41:02):
And it's our perception of that that makes us quit and makes us think we are judged as
losers or perceived in whatever which way.
And I love you to as well touch on that was at the Navy CEO.
Like I don't want to misspeak the 6040 rule.
If you don't mind jumping in on that.
Sure.
That's not a rule.
So there's a young man who works with my wife as a former Navy CEO and he will contact me

(41:24):
on my off week's of treatment just to check up on me.
Hey, how's it going?
Things like that.
And we talk a lot about what it means.
I mean, this guy was in Iraq and Afghanistan and has been decorated for valor and you would
never know it.
He's the most humble, most gracious, most loving human being in the world.
And you look at him, you're like, I know you could kill me with the eraser of a pencil

(41:44):
15 different ways.
You know.
He's just he's that kind of a guy.
And the seals kind of have this they call it the 40% rule, which basically says that if you're
done, if you're at the end of your row, if you can't go on, that you're only at 40% of
your maximum and you still have another 60% left in reserve to give to yourself.

(42:08):
So and we know this is true.
I mean, you think about marathon runners.
We know marathon runners kind of hit that wall and they're like, if you can keep going,
if you can just keep putting one foot in front of the other, eventually you'll get that second
wind and you'll be able to finish the race.
So you know, it's true this 60, 40, this 40%.
I'm not even I'm not even at half of my capability, but it's our brains that tell us, hey, this

(42:33):
hurts.
It's uncomfortable.
Knock it off.
And we listen to our brains because it's trying to protect us.
It's that mammalian brain that, you know, don't do anything.
You know, it's like if you got up this morning, Jared said, I'm going to go sky down.
Your brain would have been like, you need a minute, Jared.
We might crash the parachute being on open.
No, no, no, you're not doing that.
Very few people get, yeah, go ahead, Jared.

(42:55):
Do that.
It's it's your brain protecting you from all the adverse things that might happen.
And you're like, but the only way you're going to grow is to get into those adverse things
and see what happens.
Absolutely.
And this gets maybe a little bit on a philosophical angle, but it's something I'm always interested
in discussing and seeing and hearing people's perspectives.
You know, because the way you describe that is like we are separate from the mind is that,

(43:18):
you know, maybe would you say that we perhaps are a soul in a body and we have dominion over
that mind is the way that you position it is that we are not the mind and we can hear
that mammalian brain and say, I'm not listening to you.
You're trying to help me survive, but I'm in charge here.
And what's what's who is I in that instance?

(43:39):
Yeah.
I mean, I think so many of us think we're a body that has a soul and I agree with you.
I think we're a soul that just happens to be in a body.
And you know, I've seen so many people in my life and I'm not saying you shouldn't do it.
You know, we're going to get enough rest.
We're going to exercise.
We're going to eat right.
We're going to do all these things to protect and to enhance our physical body.

(44:04):
And that's great.
I'm not telling you you shouldn't do that.
So what I am suggesting is maybe every day work on who you really are, which is your heart,
your mind and your soul.
We don't spend nearly as much time working on our heart, mind and soul as we do our physical
body, but we also know that at some time, you know, the, it's still what do you get for

(44:25):
living, loving and laughing?
You get death.
That's the ultimate outcome of death.
We know this body is going to die.
It's going to decay.
It's going to go away.
But your heart, your mind and your soul, those things are eternal, those things live on.
And I just don't think we spend enough time working on them.
So absolutely.
I think we're a conglomerate of a heart, a mind and a soul and a body that houses that.

(44:49):
But we think, look at me.
I'm going to jump off.
You know, I'm going to pop off.
You know, that's great.
I get news.
Sorry.
I have 40 years after you're dead.
You ain't going to look that good.
I can promise.
You spend a lot of time working on it.
How much time do you spend working on your mind, working on your spirit, working on your
heart and helping other people and things like that?
That to me, that's what life is about.

(45:10):
Don't give me your eye.
I spent a lot of time working on my body, being a college athlete and things like that.
For sure.
Getting to that.
And that's important.
I'm not saying you should abuse your body, but I'm also saying you should probably find
the balance between your body and your spirit.
I love that distinction, very, very well put.
And maybe we could change gears a little bit now because you have, you know, I'm always so

(45:34):
fascinated by people that have lived fascinating experiences and getting their perspective.
So fascinated by perspective and kind of human nature.
And so I'd love to kind of learn maybe firstly, if you want to kind of share with the audience
how you pivoted to SWAT.
And then second, I'll kind of ask my questions from there on.
But yeah, if you don't mind, kind of give us kind of the next step in the narrative there.

(45:57):
Sure.
So I was already a police officer in Cincinnati and I always wanted to be the best at whatever
I did in my life.
And SWAT, they're usually the best officers with the best training and the best equipment.
So when there was an opening on the negotiating team and I guess I should back up for saying
SWAT is usually kind of broken down into two groups.
There's the tactical team, the tactical unit and the negotiators.

(46:20):
And we used to joke with the tactical team that if we did our job right, you didn't get
to use all the little toys that you have as part team.
But those are the men, women that surround the house that have to go in and things like
that.
And so there was when there was an opening on the SWAT team, it was, you know, you had to
do the physical fitness partially.
You had to do a mile after unpush-ups and sit-ups.
You had to meet with the psychologist, you had to meet with the command staff.

(46:43):
And then you had to meet with the team.
And the team, it was all or nothing.
I mean, if one person said, hey, I've worked with Terry before he's kind of hard to work
with or is difficult to work with, you didn't get out.
And so I was lucky to get a thumbs up from everybody on the team and become part of that.
So it was like, great, I'm going to get all this cool training.
I'm going to learn all this stuff.

(47:04):
And I'm sure you're going to have questions that I'll be able to tell you kind of what a
knucklehead I was when I first started out doing this.
So that's how I got into it.
Okay.
Awesome.
Very cool.
Well, you know, one thing I'm really interested to learn is, you know, what's the number
one thing you learned about human nature?
Through these experiences, through hostage negotiations and these, you know, real unfortunate circumstances,

(47:27):
you know, what would you say is your number one takeaway just from the experiences that
you had in that role?
That's a great question.
I mean, I learned so much, but I guess I would say this every, every relationship.
And again, you know, we're negotiating with people.

(47:49):
Well, let's be honest, if you're talking to me and your house is surrounded by the police,
you're probably having the worst day of your life up to this point.
So we're trying to negotiate with somebody that's having a horrible day that we've never
met, that we have no idea many times why we're even there, what got them to do, what they
do.
So what are we trying to do?
We're trying to develop trust because any good relationship, whether it's husband, wife,

(48:14):
parent, child, boss, subordinate, you don't have trust in that relationship.
It is not a good relationship, it very well may be a toxic relationship.
So we're trying to develop trust with the human being we've never met before.
And that was all the learning, the training, the techniques that we've learned through
that that got us to be able to do that.

(48:38):
Wow.
Very cool.
Yeah, I'm sure that learning just how quintessential trust is in life.
I mean, because if you can go to something to the extremity of a hostage negotiation and
be able to have even successful outcomes, I believe you said, was it about 80% of the time?

(48:59):
It might be about 90% of the time we were, wow, just looking at the person out.
Wow, that's incredible.
And just the power of trust.
I mean, you think you can get like your boyfriend or girlfriend or whoever to trust you,
but just the power of, I think underlying that is love.
I think there's a sense of goodwill and caring for that person, that's sensed.

(49:19):
I think even on a deeper level, if you had agreed to speak to him, the power of as you
were saying is the primacy of love.
It was.
I mean, we wouldn't negotiate with somebody.
It wouldn't be, we wouldn't start out with, hey, I'm officer Tucker, I'm sergeant
Tucker or something, or I'm a police.
We would, it would be, hi, I'm Terry, what's your name?

(49:41):
And a lot of times you don't need to know, okay, what would you like me to call you?
And so it would start with that.
And like I said, a lot of times we had no idea why we were there, what, what kicked this
off, why this person did what they did.
And so we would use what was called tactical empathy.
I think you can get rid of the word tactical and just talk about empathy.

(50:03):
Help me to understand where you're coming from, what's going on, however you wanted to
phrase it.
And the key word there is understand.
If you were a homicide suspect that just murdered three people, I was not going to be like,
oh yeah, totally understood why you did, I totally agree that you did that.
So it was, help me to understand where you're coming from.

(50:24):
Because understanding builds trust and trust gets me to a point where I can get you
potentially out safely.
So that was the whole, so how do you do that?
A couple of ways.
One, we never used why questions.
Because think about Jared when you were growing up, you know, you did something wrong, what's

(50:45):
your parents do?
Jared, why did you do that?
You know, why questions sound accusatory?
You know, Jared, why, why don't you wear that tie?
Oh, wait a minute, it's just Terry not like the tie that I'm wearing.
You know, it's so big.
It's almost like an accusation.
I can get to the same answer by saying, hey, Jared, what, what makes you sign where that
tie to that?

(51:06):
It's lots, it lay in softer.
So we would use how and what questions we would stay away from why questions.
We would do mirroring or parody.
In other words, whatever you said, we would take either the most important words or the last
two or three words.
And we would just basically take it back at you with kind of a curious tone.

(51:26):
We're always taught to be curious.
So you don't think you could do that, Jared?
And then we would go silent because we don't like silence.
And you'll get the other person to start talking again.
So we would do that.
And the other thing and the reason hostage negotiation was so exhausting is you had to get
down in the weeds with these people.
So somebody's yelling and screaming and ranting and raving about their mother.

(51:50):
And you say something like, oh, you, you seem like you're a little upset with your mother.
No, you're totally missed what that person was saying.
You have to, man, you are pissed as hell at your mother.
Are you?
Yeah, I am.
Because again, the person's like Terry gets me.
He understands me.
Again, we're back to understanding, understand, he builds trust.

(52:11):
Trust him.
We give you out.
So that whole part of that situation, we were taught to be curious.
And I'll give you something that was, it's really kind of funny.
We were taught to smile.
And we smile.
We're two blocks away talking on the phone with this guy.
What do you mean, smile?
You're nuts.
No.
When you smile on the phone or at somebody, we have mirror neurons in our brain.

(52:36):
If I were to smile at you, your mirror neurons would engage.
And without even knowing it, there's a good chance you would smile back at that.
Right.
That smile comes through on the other end.
And I'll end with this.
The reason negotiations took so long is because we needed people to burn off a lot of that emotional
energy because we don't make good decisions with our emotional brain.

(53:00):
We make better decisions with our rational brain.
And the last thing I'll say about this is this, we never lied to people.
And people would say to us, well, I'll put the gun down and let the hostage go.
I'll come out, but you got to promise me I'm not going to go to jail.
And we would have to say something like, really?
We've been talking for five hours.
I've been honest with you.
I haven't lied to you.
Now you want me to lie to you?

(53:22):
You know, when you come out, you're going to go to jail.
I mean, we try to deflect the conversation to something that was more palatable that they
could sort of hang their hat on.
So I know I give you a lot there, but that's kind of--
Oh, yeah.
Really good.
Yeah, that's really great stuff.
And it ties in well with your, you know, kind of the aspect of your book we were talking
about.
You're number one listening more than you talk.

(53:43):
But not listening to respond, but listening to understand.
And the power of that communication skill and how that much in your story as well, like
shifted your life as well.
So I think even in that situation, it's just an exacerbated example, but even shows how
powerful those tenets are of listening to understand and mirroring and really help people

(54:10):
understand that you understand.
I think it's such a foundation of communication.
It really is.
And I'm going to give you this because this was the very first thing we got as negotiator
was how we as human beings communicate.
And this works for anybody.
Doesn't have to be cop or bad guys or just you and me talking.

(54:30):
The formula they gave us was 738.55.
So 7% of how we communicate a message with another person are the words that we use.
And think how many times you've said something and be like, "Eeeh, I wish I had to set that
up.
I wish I would have set it different."
That's only 7% of how that message comes across.
38% is the tonal voice that you use.

(54:51):
Are you really excited and you can't wait to tell the person what's going on or are you
kind of e-horish?
You know, things are bad.
It's not.
Or you know, you're like that.
38% and 55% some more than half of how you communicate a message is your body language
and your facial expressions.
And they gave us that formula to let us know that, like I said, if you're barricaded

(55:13):
in a room with a gun, I'm not in the room with you.
That's not, that would not be safe.
So we didn't have that 55%.
We didn't have the luxury of saying something to somebody and see them kind of roll their
eyes like, "Huh, what an idiot.
I can't believe Terry sent that to me."
So we had to get good.
Certainly, based on what people were saying, but also what they weren't saying and how they

(55:36):
were saying it.
Mmm.
Very, very interesting nuance there.
Yeah, thank you for breaking that down.
I think that's going to be really valuable just for anyone.
Looking to improve communication terms, love ones, friends, relationships, even business
relationships.
I'm like, I have a sales background and this very much applies to sales, mirroring.

(55:59):
These are sort of perennial types of concepts.
So it's very interesting to see even those applied to situations extreme as possible
negotiations and see they're still equally as valid and successful and just shows really
how constant those types of attributes of our human nature and our minds are.
Absolutely.

(56:19):
Now, one of the other things to switch gears a little bit is I think from a side of
even manifestation, if you will, on one of the key tendencies embodying that highest
version of yourself to attract the outcomes that are vibrationally proportionate to that

(56:42):
frequency you're on and you embodying that highest version of yourself and one of your
tenets was you are the person that you are looking to become.
And it's so resonant with me because it really feels that way and it's I think everything
has a vice, right?
I think us humans are really good at making good things and devices and what I mean by that,

(57:03):
you know, we can make anything of us, you know, it can even be like prayer, you know,
we can.
So, you know, I think something as as spiritual and as positive as self development and manifestation
turns into a whole other externalization, which is that version of me is over there.
Just like I need that car over there to be valid.

(57:24):
Now all of the sudden, the best version of yourself is also outside of you and it's
like this wake up.
It's like, well, it's still you.
You know, you are the person.
I'd love to disagree your elaboration on that point, since this is your tenet.
And that goes back to, you know, kind of what we were talking about before, you know, I was
in these roles in business and, you know, hospital administration.

(57:45):
I worked for Wendy's when I got out of college in their marketing department and I always
felt I was a police officer.
And so it was I was the person I was looking to become.
I knew I was going to become that person.
Somebody didn't know when, but I was that person.
So I was conducting myself in a way, sometimes not in a good way, because I was immature and

(58:09):
I didn't understand and I was yelling at things like that.
But did I was, I knew I was going to be that person.
How would that person act?
How do I manifest that in my life as a marketing person, as a hospital administrator?
What qualities do I have?
You know, how, how buttoned down I am?
How curious am I?
How, how do I learn how to talk to people?

(58:29):
And I think those opportunities to be in business made me a better police officer.
They allowed me to talk to people.
Law enforcement I think today is not necessarily a field that a lot of people want to get into.
But every now and then, somebody will reach out and they'll be like, what do you recommend
for me if I want to be good as a police officer?

(58:50):
And this is what I tell everybody.
Put your devices down and go out on the street and talk to the homeless guy and go up to
the penthouse and talk to that person.
Because if you can talk to a variety of people, you can be good at that.
If the only way you can communicate is on that little box going like this, you'll be miserable

(59:12):
as a cop.
So that was something I learned.
I took up to all kinds of people when I was in, in the hospital, when I was in Wendy's
things like that.
And I just think that led me.
And I don't think, I don't think I realized it at the time.
But that led me to be a better communicator and I think a better hostage to go shader is

(59:32):
what?
Sure.
And I think in that same kind of seeing in retrospect concept, you could almost even
argue for yourself that maybe those things were supposed to happen.
So that because your destiny was law enforcement, you're just being prepared to be that effective
as you were with those skills that you would gain beforehand, even potentially as an
angle to look at it if you thought of it that way as well.

(59:54):
Yeah.
But I mean, I always felt that whatever I was doing was leading me to where I was supposed
to be.
It was like, okay, did I look in the morning and go in the work at Wendy's?
No disrespect to Wendy's.
No, I didn't.
I mean, I couldn't wait to get out of bed to go be cop.
And if you want to know what your purpose is, if you can't wait to get out of bed and go

(01:00:18):
do something, then you might want to think that that might be your purpose of life.
But it was also, you know, you kind of have two handles in life.
Do I have to or do I get to?
And, you know, I have to go to work to have to get out or do I get to go to work?
Do I get to go?
And I'm not going to lie to you.
I wasn't always the I get to.

(01:00:40):
It was like, oh gosh, do I really have to get out of bed and go to work today?
But there were a lot of times where it was like, I get to go do this.
I'm going to learn something new.
This is outside my comfort zones.
I'm kind of pushing the envelope here a little bit.
I don't know about this.
I, you know, I don't know if I'm going to be any good at this.
I don't know if I'm going to like it.
But all of that was leading, I think leading me to you're going to use these skills in some

(01:01:03):
way, shape or form in being in law enforcement.
Very cool.
Yes, I love tracing people's stories as well and seeing the divine sort of blueprint of
how that kind of came to fruition.
So that's so inspiring to hear.
And I think that gets kind of the wrap round to another tenant as well, this kind of late
to I think was principal eight, which is fail often, especially when you're a young, is

(01:01:26):
you're saying it's, you know, you may not have all the experience.
You may be going into something just you know what's your passion, but you're going to
hit a hundred roadblocks along the way, you know, in one of the quotes used, which I was
in love with, which was Thomas Edison saying, I've not failed.
I've just found 10,000 ways that don't work.
And it's such a powerful paradigm flip, right?

(01:01:48):
And I've seen, I've seen failures as steps closer to a goal as opposed to in actual loss.
So I'd, I'd love to kind of hear your perspective on kind of the concept of failing often as
you wrote in here.
Sure.
So I guess let me tell you this story.
This is a guy with a name of Jeff Wetzler wrote a book called Ask.

(01:02:10):
And I wish I would have known this when I was younger.
Because, and maybe you did this, Jared, you know, we could have put these arbitrary mile
posts out there where we say, okay, by the time I'm 28, I want to make it 100, and I'm just
making this up, making $100,000 a year.
By the time I'm 34, I want to be married and have a family.
And when those, those mile posts come and go and we're not there, we tend to look at

(01:02:32):
ourselves as, I'm failing.
I'm not, I'm not getting where I am.
And what's certain?
And he said, look at your life differently.
Look at your life like this.
He said, look at your life in decades.
So in your 20s, do anything that interests you at all professionally, spiritually, emotionally,

(01:02:52):
you know, I want to play the sport, I want to go listen to this music, whatever it is.
And mess up, fail often.
Not for the sake of failing, but for what you learn, for the lessons that failing when
you did certain things taught you.
And then it says in your 30s, find those two or three things that really speak to you and

(01:03:15):
dig into them a little bit.
And then he says in your 40s, when you're more mature, you understand how life works, maybe
you're more financially set, find that one thing, that one thing that you're supposed to
do and dig into it.
And then it says in your 50s and your 60s and beyond, you can reap the benefits.
You can reap the rewards of living your life in decades.

(01:03:37):
And when I heard this, man, I wish it would have known that when I was young, you know, because
I was doing these arbitrary mouthless, well, I'm not there.
So I must be feeling like Nelson Mandela had a great quote, Nelson Mandela is the former
president of South Africa.
And he said this, he said, I never lose.
I either win or I've learned.

(01:03:59):
Even if you lose, what did you learn from that lesson?
You're not a failure unless you start blaming other people in life.
Take the lessons you're supposed to learn from your mistakes, apply them to a new business,
a new venture, whatever it is, and move forward in your life.
Failure is a part of life.
The road to success is paged with failure.
Some people don't think that.

(01:04:20):
They look at Taylor Swift like, look at, she's a billionaire and she's done all this, I
guarantee you, Taylor Swift has written some dog songs that she probably be like, these
things are terrible.
She's failed in her life.
I can promise you that.
Absolutely.
I think that's something that's so lost.
The social media is the highlight reel.
You're getting everyone's highlight reel.

(01:04:43):
It almost be strange to have success without having some type of tribulation and be kind of
strange if someone just became a multi-millionaire and never had a single problem.
It's like, well, you should be studying.
You know, you never is.
You know, there is a single problem like, wow, you know, you're a different level of genius,
I guess.
It's almost like, yeah.

(01:05:04):
It's almost like common sense.
Of course there's going to be failure.
And I think the sooner you can internalize that and see it as information, I kind of think
of it almost like an AI, right?
If you are an AI and you just collect data, your point, your whole goal is to get closer
to a goal.
You succeed.
Do more of that.
You fail.

(01:05:25):
That's not a solution.
And you start cutting out things that don't work and start honing in on things that do
work and you just collectively get closer and the parameters get tighter around the solution
and you eventually find the solution.
And it's the emotion of the failure, quote-unquote, that colors it into something other than
just information that's taking you closer to the goal.

(01:05:48):
And I think that's what people quit is they can't see it as just a step closer.
They look it as a step further, if you will.
I do and I've never even thought about what you just said about AI and kind of cutting out
the bad.
That's a great way of looking at it.
But I think that's because people they care about what other people think.

(01:06:12):
And I always, especially with your people, I was telling why do you care what somebody else
thinks of you when those people have never even tried what you failed that, not alone
succeeded at in your life.
Why do you care what those people fit?
I mean, it's a rhetorical question, especially when you're young.
You want to be part of the in-group.

(01:06:33):
You want to feel like you're part of the group and all that stuff.
But if you look at it that way, it's like, why do you care what somebody says about how
you wear your hair, why you wore the schooled out day or anything like that?
None of that matters in your life.
And the interesting about social media is it allows you to say things to people, I'm going

(01:06:55):
to say anonymously or kind of behind the scenes, that you wouldn't say to them if you were
standing right in front of them.
So anything that's said about me on social media, and I mean, if people haven't liked sustainable
excellence, that's okay.
I mean, nobody's totally bashed it, but at the same time, it was like, not everybody's
going to like everything you do.
Not everything's going to be successful in life.

(01:07:15):
That's okay.
It doesn't make you a failure.
It just means you've learned something.
Use that, apply it, and move on.
And I think it also means you're being rude because like that being authenticity is inherently
polar.
You're going to have on the side that like you, the side that doesn't like you and the
entire spectrum in between.
It's when we're living in a state of people pleasing as you end up just great.

(01:07:39):
You're flat.
You don't even anything unique because you're trying to, you're, you come million for
what this person likes and you come million for what that person likes.
And then you're not even anyone.
You're just basically a mime, you know, that's just, you know, based on the parameters of
the moment.
And so I think it's for people to understand just as you are saying is like, if people don't

(01:07:59):
like something about you or something that you've done, but you're acting in love and
you're doing something that you think is positive and service oriented.
So doesn't like it.
That means you're just really operating in your authenticity because you're going to divide
the waters, you know, to some extent.
That's the kind of the way I kind of conceptualize it.
It's like a good sign in a certain way.
It is. And if people aren't mad at you or, or, you know, putting you down or something like

(01:08:20):
that, then you're probably not doing anything important or anything special.
Right.
You think that anybody's looking at it's, it's, you, and you've got to have that thick skin.
You've got to be like, I'm going to do this because I know it's my purpose.
You know, I mean, my own mother, you know, my, my dad had died, but when I became a police
officer, my mother was, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you can, you can make more money.

(01:08:42):
You can, yeah, you're right, Bob.
I can make more money.
But I'm not doing this because I mean, anybody gets a law enforcement, try to make money
is, is an idiot because you're just not going to make that, but you're going to make a difference
or you can make a difference.
And if you look at that, what's important in my life, the, the money part, I mean, you
can make a good living.
Don't get me wrong, but at the same time, you know, you're, you're not going to have, you

(01:09:04):
know, your, your trust or anything like that being a cop.
So, but what's important in life?
And again, going back to the Alexander the Great story.
I mean, there's, there's the richest man, most important man in the world who's like, yeah,
I've realized too late to none of this matters.
Absolutely.
Very well said.
Yeah, I think it's a matter of, you know, getting your needs met and then kind of fitting

(01:09:27):
the, the, the afterburners.
I think people get stuck in that.
It's just so, I think people in my observation like to assign control over their lives to
others.
It's like, whether it's the company, the company is, is my, you know, pseudo dad.
It pays my bills.
You know, it has the rules that it's very, I don't have any risk.
I don't have any, you know, any type of, you know, difficulty in terms of like, is the

(01:09:50):
business going to go out of business or, you know, new competitors or legal and, you
just get your, you know, your check and you're good.
And it's like it, it's a state of comfort.
And I think people get lost in that.
And it's just so much easier just to give away the agency of, of your own life.
And I think people get stuck at that step.
It's like you, you know, you have to pay your bills.

(01:10:12):
You have to be responsible in a, you know, self-reliant individual.
But, you know, but that's, but that's when you've achieved the ability in the space to now
enter that, that, that purpose into, into now really, really step into that.
You know, that, that's kind of how I conceptualize it at least.
Yeah.
And, you know, I can apply that to Kate.
You know, I've, I've got a doctor.

(01:10:33):
He's telling me you're going to be dead in two years.
But I always looked at doctors kind of like bookies and big.
You know, they look at you and say, all right, based on your age, your overall health and
the stage of your cancer, you're going to live X.
But what the doctors don't know is you want to see your child graduate from high school.
You want to see your daughter graduate from college.
You want to walk her down the aisle.

(01:10:54):
You want to play with your grandkids.
And having something to look forward to, something that you're excited to get up and go
do is incredibly important.
And I've also seen the reverse of that.
And it's just what you said, Jared.
I've seen people or doctors said, hey, you're going to be dead.
You're going to be dead in two years.
And literally on the anniversary of those that second year, they're dead.

(01:11:15):
I've always wanted my life to be based on the decisions that I made, not on the ones I
didn't make or that somebody else made for me.
So I wasn't about to roll over and say, well, I'm going to be dead in two years.
It's like, no, that's not up to me.
Some bigger than bigger than me is going to make that decision.
I'm going to figure out what this is supposed to teach me.
And then I'm going to try to live that purpose.

(01:11:37):
That's a real war your mindset.
That's really incredible.
And on a side note, what do you make of the placebo effect?
Because that two years, and I trust that, and I put my intention and energy into that,
because you know how much even the mind even affects DNA now through epigenetics.

(01:11:58):
You set that timer in a way, as you said, on the day, that would unfortunately happen
with some of those people who they told two years of a doctor, they gave that agent COA,
and they basically told themselves in their body, in their DNA, in their being, that that's
what it was.
And it even ended that way in some cases.

(01:12:18):
So I'm curious if you have even a perspective on the placebo effect in kind of your journey.
I do.
And I wish I could remember the name of the book.
They're something supernatural.
No.
Or the placebo effect by Dr. Joseph Benza.
No, it's not that.
It's a newer book.
And it talks about the placebo effect, but it's research done into the brain that is saying

(01:12:41):
that our brain is more of a predictive, than it is an organ.
And the reason I say that is because you and I may see a band robbery.
And the police may call us apart.
And I was like, okay, the guy had on an angry blue shirt and blue jeans and black sneakers.
And you may say the guy had on a green shirt and khaki pants and dress shoes.

(01:13:04):
It's like, wait a minute, you saw the same thing.
What they're finding is that your brain will predict what it expects you to see.
So you may see it, but your brain won't give you what you saw.
Your brain will give you what it predicts.
And that same thing applies, they talk about that in the book, the placebo effect of giving
people medicine or saying, okay, we're going to bring you in and we're going to do an experiment,

(01:13:31):
a test.
We're going to give you a shot.
We're going to give you a little bit of an allergen.
You've got a little bump on your arm.
And they're going to ask you to sit for 20 minutes.
And it's going to be a control group and another group.
And the control group is the people who check on you are not going to say a word.
But the other group, the people that check on you are going to say, hey, you'll be fine.

(01:13:53):
They'll go down in a few minutes and they find that the people who were told that it'll
go down in a few minutes, that it'll be fine.
It does go down and they're better.
And the other people, it's still there.
It doesn't, because so that that's the same.
They got the same thing.
But somebody told you, so now your brain is like, this is going to work.
I'm going to feel better in a few minutes because somebody told me that I was going to

(01:14:14):
do right.
So yeah, I absolutely believe in the placebo effect.
Wow. Yeah, I even read studies a while ago, it was about the certain type of tumor.
And they basically told the individual that it was basically the most latest, like leading
edge, like super high powered, most like newest, greatest, most effective drug ever.

(01:14:39):
And it was, you know, placebo.
And the tumor literally shrunk.
Like it was, I think it was terminal.
I mean, I mean, it almost disappeared.
It was almost gone.
And then I believe I don't want to mistake the study, but she realized that it was a placebo.

(01:14:59):
And it came back.
And so I think it's just even further towards just the power of our tension.
I mean, I think we're just so undersell.
I mean, even in modern medicine, I mean, I just wish it wasn't so deterministic.
I wish there's more of a state of, you know, possibilities and ability to really have that,

(01:15:20):
you know, dominion over yourself and your life and your past.
But you do.
And that's, and that's your sick.
But, you know, like, like it was just talking, people look at somebody in a white coat with
a bunch of initials after their name and say, well, they know what they're talking about.
So if they said I'm going to die in two years, I'm going to die in two years.
But we know that our bodies can cure themselves.

(01:15:41):
Our bodies can come up with what it needs to kill cancer, to starve it, to get rid of the
blood flow to it.
Our bodies can do that.
We just don't, we don't delve into that enough.
We don't use our brains to control our bodies.
And I am, I'm a thorough believer.
Like I said, you know, I had something to look forward to in my life.

(01:16:03):
Think about that.
I've got two years to live.
And I'm thinking about my grandkids.
My daughter's at high school.
I mean, you know, think how far that is down the line.
But my body's got something, my brain's got something to live for.
Something to move forward, something I want to do.
And that, that alone is incredibly powerful in keeping you going.

(01:16:25):
And like I said, I still have cancer.
I still have two of my lungs, but I'm doing a whole lot better.
Everybody who started this clinical trial drug that I've been on is dead.
I'm still here.
And I'm still fighting.
And I use, you know, my doctor said, your body understands how to use this medicine.
And I have terrible side effects when I get it.

(01:16:46):
But every time I hurt and I'm throwing up and I'm shaking, I'm like, it's working.
It's doing well.
It's out to do.
So that is so inspirational.
Wow.
Just so incredible.
So thank you, thank you for sharing that.
I think to wrap up here, you know, I think a good kind of period on the sentence here

(01:17:08):
is, you know, the role of God in our lives.
I know we've touched on it.
Definitely a lot throughout the conversation.
But, you know, really how quintessential that is in your experience through your life journey.
And I think another thing, I like to ask most people who are spiritual, depending on no
matter where they come from.
And I really respect the way that you handle things in your book when you talked about it.

(01:17:29):
I believe it was high school where you had the religious organization and you would,
when you went out of town, you wouldn't let your vice president.
Do the meetings because you know, was sorry.
It was in college.
It was in college.
Sorry.
And you wouldn't let it brought the meetings because, you know, he would get on to other denominations
of Christian or other religions.
And your whole thing was just a non-interference, let people believe and have the faith that they

(01:17:54):
have.
And I really resonate with that philosophy.
You know, I'm just curious, you know, number one, of course, just the importance of God
conceptually, you know, in our lives.
And secondarily, do you believe that everyone can have sort of a, if everyone can get the
same type of benefit or connection through different channels, whether that is through Islam,

(01:18:17):
whether that is, there are even different denominations of Christianity or through Judaism
or, you know, Hinduism, you know, can they achieve a similar effect in their lives coming
to most different angles?
I would like to say yes.
Now, I wish I could remember who I had said this.
So if somebody knocked on your door and said, "Hey, Jared, you don't know.

(01:18:40):
I'm a total stranger.
Hey, I want to come in.
I want to use your shower.
I want you to make me a meal.
You know, I want to sleep, you know, in your guest bedroom.
You're good with that, right?
What would you say?
Who are you?
He said, you like, "No, absolutely not."
I mean, you know, there's nothing all to risk here, but I would like the same thing works

(01:19:03):
with God.
You know, if you're the kind of person, I think denominations, you know, I don't think
you should believe in the denominations.
I don't think you should believe in words.
I'm Catholic.
I believe that it works for me.
But I think it's just like if you were to knock on heaven's gates and say, "I am here."

(01:19:24):
And you had totally discot and totally not been, you know, God was never a part of your life
growing up.
You think God's going to say, "Yes, you're coming in."
Yeah, it's like it's going to be the same thing.
The water is fine.
Yeah.
I mean, you know, I was never a part of your life when you were on earth.
So why do you think you're going to be part of heaven at this point in time?

(01:19:44):
So I think, and I think this just goes back, we all should be part of something that's
bigger than ourselves.
And for me, that's God.
Like I said, when I die, where I die, how I die?
Way above my pay grade.
I don't spend much time worrying about that.
And I heard a Native American black foot proverb years ago that I absolutely love and it
goes like this.

(01:20:06):
When you were born, you cried in the world rejoiced.
Live your life in such a way.
And that doesn't mean important words.
Live your life in such a way so that when you die, the world crouched and you rejoice.
That's what I want.
That's what I'm looking for.
Wow.
And with that, a serious mic drop, I think we will conclude today.

(01:20:29):
But Terry, it has been such a pleasure chatting with you.
Thank you so much for your insights and wisdom.
I know I have learned a lot in Gainland.
I'm sure the audience has as well.
Before we wrap up here, I'd love to say a quick second to share where they can find
you, where they can find your work.
And of course, we'll link everything in the description for everyone.
But just a quick second if you want to share.

(01:20:50):
Sure, this is a way to find me to get an old name, leave me a message.
It's motivationalcheck.com.
It's my blog and website.
My social media links are on there.
I get recommended.
Recommendations, books to read, videos to watch.
You can reach out to me motivationalcheck.com.
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much, Terry.
Really appreciate your time once again.
Thank you, Jared.

(01:21:11):
I really enjoyed this.
Awesome.
Take care, Terry.
Bye-bye.
Thank you for tuning into this episode of the Quantum Theory Podcast.
If you desire to embark on the path of self-mastery, visit Quantum Theory Podcasts.com to join a
like-minded community of purpose seekers committed to personal growth.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Transformative Power of Suffering: Self-Growth, Finding Purpose & Navigating Life | Terry Tucker