Radical Honesty, Romantic Math & the Case for Multiple Loves

Ever feel like one person just can’t meet all your needs—and wonder if that makes you “too much”?
This week, we wrap up Pride Month with our longtime friend Daniel Walker: polyamorous single dad, badass art photographer, and massage therapist turned labor union rep. We talk love, labels, and why polyamory isn’t just about sex—it’s about being real with yourself and everyone you care about.  
💅 Matching “paint nails & punch Nazis” tees? Yeah, we showed up ready.
📸 What Daniel’s photography says about body, beauty, and being seen
🧠 Why jealousy isn’t the enemy—it’s a message
🚩 The phrase “you made me feel this way” and other red flags
💬 What’s an anchor partner? And why it’s not the same as “the one”
👻 How ghosting your own needs can wreck any relationship
🧾 Romantic accounting—it’s a thing, and yes, it sounds exhausting
🧡 Emotional connection over sex: the demisexual download
📞 “Do you have 8 minutes?” The friend check-in phrase we swear by

Polyamory is less about multiple partners and more about radical honesty, emotional growth, and boundaries that actually work.  

🎧 If this episode cracked something open for you, share it with a friend, leave us a review, or tag us on socials—we’d love to hear what resonated. And don’t forget to grab your Radical Joy sticker when you send us that 5-star screenshot!  
 
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Take care of yourself, take care of each other, and breathe!  
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Got something on your mind? James never runs out of things to say, so tell us what you want to discuss!   

Remember there is no shame in joy or for asking for what you need.  

Leave a review, send us a screenshot, and we’ll mail you a sticker! See you next FRIDAY for another dose of Radical Joy.  

James is not a therapist, but you’re not alone. If you're in crisis, call 988 for professional help.  

For non-emergencies, Psychology Today can connect you with support and therapists who fit your needs.   This podcast and CLW Studios content are not therapy or a substitute for it. Guest opinions are their own.  

We're here for insight and encouragement but always seek professional support when needed.  

This episode was Produced and edited by Kerri J of CLW Studios    

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/radical-joy-with-james-bullard--5644728/support.

🌹🧡🟡🌳🔷🟪🤎🖤❔  ❤️🍊🟨💚💙💜🟤🖤❕❕
Take care of yourself, take care of each other, and breathe!  
❤️🍊🟨💚💙💜🟤🖤❕❕  🌹🧡🟡🌳🔷🟪🤎🖤❔  
Got something on your mind? James never runs out of things to say, so tell us what you want to discuss!   

Remember there is no shame in joy or for asking for what you need.  

Leave a review, send us a screenshot, and we’ll mail you a sticker! See you next FRIDAY for another dose of Radical Joy.  

James is not a therapist, but you’re not alone. If you're in crisis, call 988 for professional help.  

For non-emergencies, Psychology Today can connect you with support and therapists who fit your needs.  

This podcast and CLW Studios content are not therapy or a substitute for it. Guest opinions are their own.  

We're here for insight and encouragement but always seek professional support when needed.  

This episode was Produced and edited by Kerri J of CLW Studios

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:11):
Hello, friends, So happy to have you here with us
today at Radical Joy. If you've been here before, welcome back.
If this is your first time with us, well we're
glad you're here. Each week, we're here with you talking
to ourselves about things that weigh on our minds and hearts,
hoping if you're dealing with something similar, we can adjust
our perspectives as you listen. Hey, if you're struggling with

(00:31):
something that needs immediate attention, please know that help was
available just on nine eight eight nationwide and the US
to reach the Mental Health and Suicide Crisis Hotline. All
of us here at CLLU Studios believe that mental health
is a vital part of our well being. The more
people we meet and the more places we go, the
more we realize how important it is to make people

(00:53):
aware of the fact that there is no shame in
enjoying the parts of our lives that are incredible. Some
Radical Joy and this week the three fingers pointing back
at me are for our Daniel Walker, a polyamorous single father,
art photographer, massage therapist, and recently elected business agent for

(01:13):
the local labor union. He spent his entire adult life
in areas of work that serves others or has an
artistic or creative foundation our Daniel and I have been
friends for many moons. We got to hang out at
some of the most unpredictable places and circumstances, which I've
always enjoyed, and whenever we started talking about Radical Joy,

(01:36):
he wanted to come on the show, and I thought
that would be an absolutely excellent idea, especially for Pride months,
making sure that any and all of our community members
were represented as best we could. It's always interesting to
make sure that we get as much information as we
possibly can from as many representatives as we can. And
so today Daniel's with us to give us a little
bit more insight onto the dynamics of polyamory and his experiences,

(02:00):
as well as just sort of have a nice, little
comfortable chat to make sure people have as much information
as possible. So Daniel, welcome.

Speaker 2 (02:08):
Good to see you, friend, Good to see you, buddy.

Speaker 3 (02:11):
I'm excited about this.

Speaker 1 (02:13):
Good for anybody who's looking at the video right now,
because you may be on YouTube or whatever. Daniel and
I are wearing are matching paint nails and punch Nazis
T shirts, which I love. I'm a little jealous Yours
is a hot pink where mine is more of a
bubble gum or baby doll. But whatever, it's fine, It's.

Speaker 3 (02:29):
Cool, oh doll, Okay.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
Daniel and I met doing shows in Birmingham Theater years
ago and we have followed each other's progress over gosh
now decades. And Daniel's an excellent photographer. A lot of
the subjects that he photographs are some of the most
beautiful specimens of humanity I have ever laid eyes upon.
So whenever he came to visit at the tail end

(02:59):
of the pend, he and I did a shoot in
the basement of my North Carolina home and those images
still haunt me with coolness. Years later, people keep asking
me like, who did these? Let me just pass you
as number. He's absolutely fantastic.

Speaker 3 (03:14):
I made you like a badass.

Speaker 1 (03:15):
It's the truth. It is the truth. Whether I was
wearing nothing but orange underpants or my tuxedo, I felt
like an absolute rock star Stallion, make no mistake, and
it just from watching what all kinds of things and
the sort of media that you produce with your camera
lens and artistic sensibility is just a glorious thing. So

(03:37):
to be able to work with you on what we
got to do was a joy for me. And those
images still, I tell you, I keep those on a
special folder in case anybody needs a good photo of me.

Speaker 3 (03:49):
Nice. I love it.

Speaker 1 (03:53):
Now as part of our Pride Month series. The main
reason I would say that I would love for you
to be here for many but definitely the one that
stands out on the front is just a little bit
more information on your if it's okay to say, evolution
in your relationship status and objectives and perspectives, so that

(04:16):
you can give us just a little bit more information
on that community. I think that there are a lot
of people that are looking into opening relationships, and they're
looking into finding a way to navigate a lot of
the pitfalls that can accompany those kinds of situations. I'm
sure communication is very important, is of paramount importance. But

(04:37):
instead of trying to infer, what I'd love to do
is just sort of pass the mic to you so
you can just sort of like give us your impressions
and experiences to help us understand a little bit better
where you're coming from.

Speaker 3 (04:50):
Right, Well, first off, I just want to say any
kind of like ethical non monogamy polyamory, there is really
no standard as to what that looks like. It is
individual two between you and your partner, and you and

(05:14):
your other partner their partners, and so on and so forth.
There's always going to be a different dynamic. If you like,
set a standard across all your people, it's most likely
the work because person is a different individual onto themselves
and needs different things. So the way I look at polyamory,

(05:38):
you have to take sex out of the idea. If
you take sex out of the idea, it's a little
easier to understand. You know, we have best friends, we
have family, we have co workers, We have acquaintances that
we all have floating in and out of our lives,

(06:00):
some that we love tremendously, some that we dislike tremendously,
some that we like for little stirits of time and
then and then that's enough, and then we can go
a little while before we have to see each other again.
But each of those people in our lives checks a
box and of something we need in our life. In relationships,

(06:26):
we like to look at things as you know, being
there for our partner, non selfish. But when it comes
to polyamory and multiple relationships, it really kind of has
to be a little bit selfish. It kind of has
to say, you do this and this and this for me,
and that's good and that's enough, but you need from me.

(06:50):
I can try to give as much as possible, but
I'm never going to be able to give one hundred
percent to just one person because there's no way I
can expect that person to give me one hundred percent
of what I need. Excellent, you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (07:09):
We talk about that a lot.

Speaker 3 (07:11):
Yeah, So if I know that I cannot give you
one hundred percent of what you need because I'm a
very different individual than you are and you have different
needs than I am. And we look at those needs
and we realize that some of our best friends, who
we are not romantically linked to, check those boxes. That's

(07:36):
why we have them in our lives. Want someone in
our life no longer checks those boxes or becomes oxy,
we can let that go, and that doesn't mean that
it was a waste of time. You know. People also
look at relationships as failures because they ended, rather than say, okay,

(07:58):
well what did I gain from the time that I
was in that relationship? Yes, what did I learn? How
did I grow? People don't. People don't like to accept
the fact that other people change with new information when
in a different situation, people change. We all change. Yes, Great,

(08:23):
if you can get married in a monogamous relationship and
go sixty something years with that person and that's all
you need in your life, awesome, go for it, dude.
I support it, But I can't do that, you know.
I change, Like from COVID to now, I've felt like

(08:45):
I've lived three different lives, you know what I mean. Yeah,
I think a lot of us have this, like pre
COVID version of ourselves and post COVID version of ourselves.
So the way I look at relationships that end is
did I learn something from that? What aspects of that

(09:09):
time was beneficial to me? So being able to accept
the good and the bad at the same time and
acknowledge that there were some really good things. Whether it
meant the same to that person or not, it doesn't
really matter. It meant that to me, you know what

(09:29):
I mean. So, so it's up to each of us
to decide how we're going to view the relationships we're in.
And so in polyamory, if you take sex out of it,
you can look at every single relationship you have as

(09:50):
a being polyamorous. I mean, we have family, we have friends.
Polyamory just means multiple love, you know. Sure, Now once
you start adding sex into that, That's why it's complicated, right,

(10:11):
because everyone puts a different level of expectation on what
sex means. Yes, you know, we have a variety of
options for sexuality, demisexual, polysexual, asexual, bisexual, you know, all
of those different things, and so sex is going to

(10:33):
matter in a different way to each individual that we
interact with.

Speaker 1 (10:38):
As well as their sexual identities.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
I would assume, yes, most definitely.

Speaker 3 (10:44):
That has been something. I'm forty five now, I've lived
the majority of my life with a certain understanding of
what to call people as far ass when I see them.
That was built into me. So it has taken me

(11:05):
time to learn how to unlearn that. Yes, you know
what I mean, I still make mistakes, but luckily I've
got trans and non binary people in my life who
are very forgiving and remind me, and they don't do
it in a negative way. They understand that old dog

(11:32):
new tricks, you know what.

Speaker 1 (11:34):
I to make sure well, of course, well and also
for an entire existence of most of us, you know,
you look in a direction and a certain person bears
a resemblance to what we've always known to be, and
we are entering a different era. I don't want to
say new, because it's not a new idea. It's just
something that we haven't really paid homage to very heavily
over the last however many decades, and now it's starting

(11:55):
to enter into the mainstream. It's one of the biggest
topics that we talk about, especially you know, in the
turn of the political climate that we're currently facing and
dealing with. It was just an enormous thing. Even though
I think the population is very, very small in relation
to the whole, it's still a very inflammatory topic to some,

(12:15):
and it's still a very crucial topic to others. It's like, okay, great,
and I think honestly everyone's right in those two respects. Like, sure,
somebody's going to get mad about it, quite frankly, that's
their emotion to handle. And then the rest of us,
you know, for those that want to be respectful of
the community, we're great, Okay, cool, So educate me. I'll
do my best to remember, and please forgive me when

(12:37):
I slip, because it will happen, right.

Speaker 3 (12:41):
Yeah, Oh no, I was just going to say that
that's exactly the same thing when it comes to polyamorous relationships,
any kind of relationship with a person is is finding
that the way in which that works between you, and

(13:07):
understanding what that partner or person needs from you, as
far as a certain amount of quality time, setting boundaries,
those kind of things. If I've got a friend who
is trans or non binary or chooses to use different pronouns,

(13:32):
yes it is up to me to have to learn
how to do that. But when you're in that relationship
and you have those people around you, surrounding yourself with
people who also understand where you are coming from in
your journey and learning how to accommodate their needs, which,

(13:57):
as with anything in polyamory, is like okay, hey, what
are you doing or what is it about you that
checks boxes for me? And is that to me worth
investing time into this R Yes, it's yes, I want

(14:22):
to do something for you as well, but I also
need to make sure I'm getting something out of it,
and if I'm not, then I don't. I ain't got
time for that. The idea of it's up to us
individuals two work on our own emotional conflicts.

Speaker 2 (14:44):
Yes, you know, jealousy, Oh yeah, that must play in
it is.

Speaker 3 (14:50):
It is huge when it comes to and the idea
of you made me feel this way, Okay, you know
what I mean. It's like, no, my actions caused a
feeling inside you. Now it's up to you to how
to respond to that feeling, not saying I'm right and

(15:11):
doing what I did.

Speaker 1 (15:13):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 3 (15:14):
You know, but I'm just saying that I can't make
you do anything right.

Speaker 1 (15:20):
And again, your emotions are yours. My actions. I understand
that many of them come with consequences. All of them
come with consequences of some ilk for sure. It's just
one of those things where I do something that you
find unfavorable, You respond, and you have your feelings. I've
done the action, and we have to communicate about how

(15:41):
to avoid that in the future if that's something we
want to give weight and credence to in the first place.

Speaker 3 (15:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And jealousy is a big
one because jealousy is solely comes from something within each
of us. Like so, rather than processing jealousy as they
did something to hurt me, we have to process why

(16:12):
am I feeling jealous in response to what they did, like,
what is it about me? What has happened in my
life that has made me feel this way that I
maybe can't trust my partner?

Speaker 1 (16:29):
And that curiosity is so important, right, and you have
to be able to trust your partners.

Speaker 3 (16:36):
You have to be able to trust all of them.
If you know, a lot of people can be polyamory
when it's them being polyamorous, but they struggle with their
partners really polyamorous as well. Yeah, it's because you know yourself.
You know yourself. I know I'm not gonna cheat on you.

(16:56):
I know I'm going to communicate. I know I'm going
to do the things that I need to do to
make this work. I know that. But because I can't
step into their mind, I don't know if my partners
want to feel the same way. Yes, and in that
little line, is that jealousy, Like there's some trauma inside
that little space human nature that creates jealousy, and so

(17:21):
we have to figure out what that is to know
if we can continue on in that relationship or not.

Speaker 1 (17:27):
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. And too,
there's part of me that thinks, you know, it's safety
on many levels. It's a safety as far as like
trusting my emotional well being with someone who I don't
necessarily know as deeply as I would like, and now
I feel exposed, vulnerable, not to mention the fact that
if you end up that you should not have or
could not trust that person, that now you're also exposed

(17:50):
to possible STIs or any number of things that may
go along with the situation that bears resemblance to this. Also,
I would like to say this, which is honestly, very
very new territory for me, if I use terminology that's
a little bit off, please let me know. It's not intentional.
It's just an Yeah, it's my ignorance playing its part

(18:10):
in my mouth. So make sure I stay on the
right track. Please, I invite correction whenever I step out.

Speaker 3 (18:19):
Yeah. Well, when it comes to labels and phrases and
things like that within that community, again, that's one of
those things that changes per individual. What a you know,
the difference between a primary partner or an anchor partner

(18:40):
or any of those kind of things. Well, so, a
primary partner, you would normally consider the traditional view of it.
A primary partner is is like your husband, wife, fiance, spouse, partner,
right right, someone that you put in a place of

(19:02):
and primary partners are usually only a higher article polyamory,
which is often frowned upon, just like unicorn hunters and
things like that. Do you know what a unicorn hunter is?

Speaker 1 (19:17):
I don't. You're using all this terminology like I know
any of this. That's why you're here education it is.

Speaker 3 (19:23):
A unicorn hunter is a established couple who is seeking
a third to just come and go whenever this third person.
They don't get the they don't get the emotional connection,
they don't get the invited over for holidays. They are

(19:44):
not considered a part of the relationship there is as
it's just bringing in a third to do with you
know what we want? They don't enjoy sure, right right.
They don't get the option to have a long time
with either of the partners. The only time they're there
is when they're there with those partners in that sexual situation. Now,

(20:08):
I'm not saying I'm not saying that that's bad or
evil or unethical in any way, as long as you
were upfront with what you're wanting with the person and
what the limitations are within that, by all means be
a unicorn hunter. If that's what you want, it is
going to be frowned on in the community because that

(20:28):
person doesn't get any rights to that relationship with either partner. Now,
stepping back to primary partner, when you're looking at the hierarchical,
that primary partner takes precedence over every other partner.

Speaker 2 (20:44):
Okay, So if your.

Speaker 3 (20:47):
Primary partner is sick or going through an issue or
has to you know, something that requires you to step
away from a partner that you're with. Usually in those
in those primary partner situations, it's okay, I've got to
leave my other partner I'm out with right now because
my primary partner needs me for something and that's my value,

(21:10):
that's my first that's my thing. Again, it's not unethical,
it's not considered bad or wrong. It's just not viewed
favorably because your other partners do not get the same benefits.

Speaker 1 (21:25):
Okay, And again, like you said, as long as everyone
knows the situation moving into it, there's no issue because
you know, grown consulting, consenting adults. Yes, yeah, yeah, it's
just that clarity of communication to make sure that everyone
knows the program you'd mentioned earlier. Said it may sound selfish,
I don't think it sounds selfish. I think it needs
another level up of clarity for everyone involved, not trying

(21:47):
to be harsh, just making sure every knows is exactly
on the same page we are all.

Speaker 3 (21:52):
I mean, it's all about creating boundaries. It's saying if
you do this, this is what's going to happen. Either
you know, we're gonna have to take some time, but
it like, doing this thing causes this result. Are you
okay with that? And then it's up to you to
go yes, I can manage that, or it's up to

(22:15):
you to say no, I can't do that. But what
I can do is if this happens, then I do this,
Will that be okay? It's a negotiation, okay, you know.
And that's also another thing that that upsets a lot
of people is sometimes in that boundary setting and that communication,
it sounds very formal, it sounds very contractual, and so

(22:39):
a lot of people can feel a lack of passion
out of it. You see what I'm saying, because it
is very structured. It's this and this and this and
this like I do this and this and this with you,
and then I do this and this and this with
other partner, and then I do this and this and
this with other partner. So it's not about giving every
partner the same every time. Like if you go out

(23:01):
to eat at your favorite restaurant, maybe not all your
partners like that restaurant or that style of food. But
if you're you know, if you're if you feel like, oh,
I have dates with Let's say you have three partners.
I have dates with three partners, I have to go
to the same restaurant and spend the same amount of
money and do the same things. Otherwise someone's going to

(23:22):
get upset and jealous. That will never work out either.

Speaker 1 (23:25):
Right, No, And it does sound like a lot of
effort for someone on the outside who doesn't necessarily have
a lot of experience. I'm like, that is a lot
of investment I think on literally every member's part. And
I'm just like, wow, okay, got it. It's so easy,
I think, to for people to pass judgment instead of
just being a little bit more open and curious about

(23:46):
how the whole thing works. Because like what you're talking about,
it's we're not talking about good or bad. It can
appear as very structured or very in some cases very transaction,
and that isn't it It's just that it has to
be so clear so everyone is fully informed and can

(24:07):
make an informed decision moving forward to join into a
pollicule or a community as such.

Speaker 3 (24:14):
Yeah, uncommunicated expectations are relationship killers.

Speaker 1 (24:20):
And resentment waiting to happen.

Speaker 3 (24:23):
You're setting yourself up for failure. Yes, If if I
go into a relationship expecting this person to give me
one hundred percent of everything I need, I am setting
that relationship up for failure.

Speaker 1 (24:34):
Correct. That is an expectation that cannot be met by
a single human being. I fully believe that with all
my guts and heart, right right, I do. That's why
we need a tribe. And whether it is you know,
it's platonic, or it's romantic or sexual or whatever the thing,
I think that a multitude of people is a much
more effective way of making sure that as many of

(24:56):
your needs are met in your community or tribe of people.

Speaker 3 (25:00):
Right Yeah, Now, I mean I think if sex wasn't
an issue for a lot of people, most everybody would
be polyamorous.

Speaker 1 (25:08):
Okay, I mean.

Speaker 3 (25:10):
That's just a personal opinion, because I mean, if you
take sex out of it, then there's no difference between
you know, your romantic partner and your best friend. Your
best friend gets hurt as in the hospital, you're going
to drop everything you do to go to them.

Speaker 1 (25:24):
Sure, you know, I think that's a really interesting way
of looking at it, and I believe that, and I
think that there are a lot of things that we
could look at in such a way if all relationships
were non sexual, like what you're talking about. Yes, if
if envy wasn't something, if toxic masculinity wasn't something, if
toxic femininity wasn't something. There are a lot of things

(25:45):
that play into this that make things difficult. Whenever it's
just human nature and just trying to be supportive and
good to one another, they could make a whole lot
of difference.

Speaker 3 (25:54):
Right, I mean, And I deal with jealousy, Okay, you
know every one does, sure, especially in polyamas relationship. But
where I look at the jealousy is it's not I
want to do this with that partner who is getting
this opportunity, is like I'm not envious of It's like
I want to do that too, whether it's with that

(26:16):
partner or not. You know what I mean. It's it's
it's the oh that sounds like fun. I want to
do that. Yes, you know, and I'm kind of jealous
that I'm not getting to but I'm but I'm not
upset with that partner for doing.

Speaker 1 (26:31):
That thing that's important.

Speaker 3 (26:34):
It's more of a fear of missing out.

Speaker 1 (26:36):
Yeah, And amo can be sorted because we're all grown
adults with adult money. So if we wanted to do
something like that, we would either find another time to
go do that activity with that person or find another
person to go and do that activity with us.

Speaker 3 (26:49):
Right, there are a million.

Speaker 1 (26:50):
Different choices and ways to handle something. Look at I would.

Speaker 3 (26:52):
Assume yeah, yeah, well, I mean like take you take
your your birthday party for example, Yeah, I've got a
job that allows me to go to it. Now, I'm
making really good money. I'm grateful for it is giving
me an a lot of opportunities to do things that
I've never had the opportunity to do. And also, at

(27:16):
forty five, I'm realizing that the odds are there are
more years behind me than are ahead of me, and
so why not take this opportunity to do those things.
So it's the same thing in polyamory. Why not take
the opportunity to build connections with people, whether they turn

(27:37):
out to be a romantic relationship or not. Yes, taking
that opportunity to connect with another individual mentally, emotionally, sexually,
whatever it is, that is what I thrive on.

Speaker 1 (27:51):
Wonderful. Now, please explain to me the one term that
we haven't covered yet. You mentioned it, but I didn't
get a definition on anchor partner.

Speaker 3 (27:59):
Oh okay, Yeah, an anchor partner is essentially the same
thing as a primary partner, except you were not putting
that partner at a higher level than anyone else. So normally,
anchor partners are probably are going to be the partner
that you do live with, maybe you have children with.

(28:19):
May you know, you have investments combined, You're you're in
a committed relationship with that partner. But both of you
understand that your other partners are just as important, are
just as valuable, So that anchor partner is not considered

(28:42):
at any higher level of importance than your other ones.

Speaker 1 (28:47):
Great and also no lower or yeah and no lower. Right.
Sorry that may seem so obvious to you. I'm so sorry,
but I just wanted to make sure that I was
on the right path of that as like, no, no, you.

Speaker 3 (28:57):
Are, you are right, I mean, it's it's the same
thing of you know, we can't measure love. We can't
get a cup and say I'm giving you two ounces
of love and I'm giving you eight ounces of love.
You know what I mean. You can't measure it. So
one of the things that just really grinds my gears
is when people will be like, oh, you don't love

(29:17):
me enough. It's like, well, I mean, how how do
you measure that? Because I feel like I am giving
you the love that I would want to receive, and
I feel like that's a lot. Yes, But for you,
like if you don't feel like you're receiving the amount
of love that you need, like what can I do?

Speaker 2 (29:39):
Like?

Speaker 3 (29:40):
What other things can I do to get you to
that level? It's like, no, I can't measure it in
a cup. But if you tell me some things that
you need, I can see if I can accommodate those.
And if I can accommodate those, then you would feel
like I loved you enough.

Speaker 1 (29:57):
Okay? Nice, Now I I do, and it brings up
other questions and pardon me, I'm just gonna keep poking
at you, say someone, because I find in my own
like very specific one way kind of situation whenever I
ask one thing of one person, they fill me up

(30:17):
to above my fill line. I can ask the same
thing of another person and they will accomplish said task
or duty or whatever we want to call it. Honestly,
it on the outside it looks identical, but it'll only
get me to like a quarter, right. I think there
is a dynamic element to this as well as far

(30:39):
as like who is completing the task and what they
are offering, like as far as like a value place.
It's the person offering, what it is they're offering, and
how effective it is in satisfying whatever need it is
your feeling.

Speaker 3 (30:54):
Right, Yeah, And it could be it could be that
you have two people providing the same thing that you
need in the same level, same way, whatever, but the
other boxes on the peripheral of what you need, those
two people check different things. So this particular moment, in

(31:17):
this particular instance, partner A may be fulfilling a little
more in your eyes because they also check this other
box that relates to it. Yes, whereas this partner is
doing the exact same thing, but it may not feel

(31:38):
as deep because the boxes that they check may not
be adding to that situation.

Speaker 1 (31:48):
They carry a different relational weight. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, no,
that makes sense.

Speaker 3 (31:55):
But then at the same time, let's say you have
another thing, and you have those two people here and
they do both doing the same thing. Now Partner A
is not meeting or is not exceeding that goal, whereas
partner B is exceeding that goal because of something else
on the periphery.

Speaker 1 (32:13):
Yep, no, that makes a lot of sense. It's just,
honest to goodness, it feels like a lot of romantic accounting.
It is, it is, it really does. And I'm here
to say it's not that I'm afraid of hard work.
That's not the thing that I'm saying. And what I'm
it just keeps ringing in my ears. I'm like, I
throw a lot of admiration and respect at it, because

(32:34):
people really want this to work. They're making these close
knit groups of these very specific lovers and friends, and
it's just wonderful that they want to go to that
length to make sure that they can make it as
successful as possible. And that takes a lot.

Speaker 3 (32:50):
Right. Yeah, but see, particularly in this moment, like I
don't see you as any different from a romantic partner
that I may have because We've built an emotional foundation
over twenty five fucking years, right that, and we've established

(33:14):
within our lives this understanding that we may go months
or years without talking to each other, but the moment
we come back, it's like not a day has passed. Sure,
and you know, and we still respect each other, we
still love each other, We appreciate each other's work, We

(33:34):
support each other when we can. We check in on
those rare occasions where we're like, hey, I was just
thinking about you. Yeah, but that doesn't make you. I mean,
if we go months or years without talking, that doesn't
make you any less important in my life than someone
I'm currently in a romantic relationship with. You know what

(33:57):
I mean. Like if we're saying, if I'm a partner
and we're sitting here watching a movie and you were
to text me and be like, yo, I need some
genial advice right now, it is understood that since you
and I don't talk every day, I need to take
this moment. Sure, you know what I mean, I do.

Speaker 1 (34:15):
No, that makes all the sense in the world, of course.

Speaker 2 (34:18):
Because it is one of those things.

Speaker 3 (34:20):
Yeah, So if you can look at all your relationships
in that way, it becomes a little easier when you
also start putting expectations on yourselves, like, Okay, well I
talked to this partner for two hours today, then I
need to call my other partners and give them two hours, okay.
And then you're like, Okay, now suddenly I've had an

(34:40):
eight hour day of talking to all my partners and
I'm exhausted.

Speaker 1 (34:44):
And that's just talking to partners. That's not even including
the rest of your natural life that goes along with right.

Speaker 3 (34:49):
Right. But what we didn't think about in that situation
is what did those other partners need. Did they need
those two hours at that moment? Maybe not, So you
just gave so much energy to something that did need
to be given that would not have changed their feelings
towards you in the least. But because you feel like
you have to give every partner the exact same thing.

Speaker 1 (35:11):
That makes a lot of sense. And it goes again
back to the clarity and communication situation. This is what
I did today, and I'm feeling as though that you
deserve this as well. I'm checking in to see if
that has the same value with you as it did
with this partner, Because before I go off on a
two hour thing, that you have no desire or time

(35:31):
to listen to I figure it's probably best I should check.
I have the desire to make sure you feel validated.
And if you don't have two hours to spend with
me right now, I get that too. I'm just making
sure we're all on the same page here. Yeah, got it.

Speaker 3 (35:47):
Yeah, I have a long distance partner. We schedule our
phone conversations, sure, because they are they have a you know,
seven to four or yeah, seven to four blue collar
job that they do, and so they're up really early.

(36:07):
I'm not a morning person, but by the time they
get home, you know, they're exhausted at the end of
the day. So they may not want to talk. Now,
sometimes they do. They'll call me up and the the
same thing. I'm sure I've told you this before. If
you call and I answer, that I mean I can talk. Yes,
If you call me and I don't answer, that means

(36:28):
I can't. And so they understand that. But if they
really need some time, if they really need that quality
time that love language, they will say, hey, do you
have an evening in the next couple of days that
we can have a phone conversation. And it's not a

(36:49):
I need to talk to you about something you're in
the principal's office. It's it's I understand the requirements on
your time and on my time, both emotionally and physically,
and so I want to give credits to that. So
we set a time that we call. Now, that conversation
could last thirty minutes or it could last four hours.

(37:12):
We don't block it in that way, you know. Or
we'll get on and be like, yeah, I only got
thirty minutes, but what's not or yeah I've got two
hours or yeah free and they're like, well, yeah, but
it's really because I look my calendar and then me,
as a who hates talking on the phone, I can

(37:39):
deal with whatever I need to deal with throughout the
day's time to get that off my brain so that
I can give full focus and be present with this
partner during this time.

Speaker 1 (37:52):
No, that sounds great, Simon Sinek, It's start with why
have you heard of this guy? He does a lot.
He doesn't amaze work with things like that as far
as like prioritizing and streamlining life, not to make it
any less valuable, just to make certain things, as you're
more important focal points. And he says the thing that

(38:14):
he has developed a sort of not really a system,
but a way of talking about exactly what you're mentioning.
He's like, do you have eight minutes? Eight minutes is
what you need? And that's like literally the phrase. It's
just like, I don't need much, but I need somebody
to listen to me for eight minutes. Are you going
to be that friend? And I love that because it
tells everything you need to know because you've already set

(38:36):
up that deal with someone, someone who's really important in
your life, and you're like, you're my eight minute friend
whenever I need something, and I don't need a lot,
but I need something right now, and this is it.
It's a wonderful thing. So you can go ahead and
sort of like preface in case we're just break glass
sort of situation. I'm about to know it. I'm about
to use that little hammer. Okay, we're good, Great, I

(38:58):
need eight and I'll be ready and I'll be done.
So yeah, right now. It sounds, honestly just like putting
high value on a lot of friendships. And some of
them just happened to come with sexual benefits.

Speaker 3 (39:11):
Yeah, and sometimes they don't, you know. I mean, I've
got three long distance partners right now who I put emotional, intellectual,
and quality time into over the phone or through text
message or whatever. But because they all live out of state,

(39:35):
you know, it's not a it's not something we can
just you know, go hang out. Now, if we're in
the same vicinity, there's likely that a physical intimacy level
can be added to that, but at the moment, that's
that's not our goal, Okay, you know what I mean.

(39:56):
The goal is not to get to a sexually intimate place.
The The goal is to have an intimate connection with
another person that we can love and trust and want
to spend time with, and then if that becomes sexual
down the road, great, If not, that's fine, you know.
And in my life, one of the things that led

(40:17):
to me accepting who I am as polyamorous is the
fact that I've always, in my entire life, put a
very high level of importance on people I care about.
And so whether they're male, female, trands, whatever. I've had

(40:47):
monogamous relationships in the past have struggles because I've got
a best friend who happens to be a female that
I'm giving time to that I am hanging out with.
It's not sex by any means whatsoever. It's just a
really solid, good, emotionally connected friendship. But that jealousy, this

(41:10):
other partner couldn't deal with it because every other partner
in their life or whatever, when they had a best
friend who was of the opposite sex, you know, cheated
on them, you know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (41:23):
So, so that that and the fact that.

Speaker 3 (41:38):
Sex has never really been like the the mark of
what a relationship means to me. So I prefer to
be demisexual. I prefer sexual interaction that has an emotional
connection to it. But it's not necessary for me, you

(42:03):
know what I mean. If I'm in a moment and
it's fun and we're both there and we're wanting to
do the thing, then great, let's go for it. Let's
have fun. Let's enjoy this experience. Right, it may not
turn into anything, but you know, let's also be safe.
But but that is that does not mark a sex,

(42:29):
does not create a level of importance in my mind.

Speaker 1 (42:34):
Now, if you wouldn't mind again, whenever I hear these terms,
I say, super there may be people listening that aren't
necessarily familiar demisexual.

Speaker 3 (42:42):
Meaning demisexual meaning you you can't well, I hate to
use the word can't because it sounds so final, but
essentially you you physically cannot have sex with someone who
you don't have an emotional connection with. Okay, So so
the only time that that that you really find yourself

(43:05):
sexually aroused by a partner is or a potential partner,
is when an emotional connection has been made.

Speaker 1 (43:13):
Excellent, thank you for that. That's wonderful.

Speaker 3 (43:16):
Great. So yeah, that's.

Speaker 1 (43:27):
Really I know, that's just it. It's just like, where
where do you begin? Where do you end? It's mostly
the thing. It's just it's I think this is a
wonderful intro to a lot of people as far as
like the idea of it, what it contains, what it entails.
There's clearly so much more to be discussed, but I
think as far as like a nice little sort of
icebreaker slashing intro level, I think this is wonderful just

(43:50):
getting more perspectives from the inside. When a lot of
people have very specific ideas about what polyamory is, how
it works, if they even get that far in their process,
I think a lot of people just sort of dismiss
it as something that they would never try, or they
have a lot of very specific and negatively connoted opinions

(44:14):
on it. Whenever it's just like, well, I understand that
you feel that way, and I'm also curious how much
you know about it, because I think we live in
a place where a lot of people just go ahead
and nay say something without really fully informing themselves. They
just know that it's not what they're used to. And
somebody along the line said, well, that's just cheating. Well,

(44:34):
I think you're overlooking a lot of nuance in that
conversation in question, and so you should probably want to
learn a little bit more before you try to slam
a stick or on it or try to jam it
into some little pigeonhole that you have an idea belongs in.

Speaker 3 (44:48):
Well, I mean, and that's I think that's one of
the things about ethical non monogamy and polyamory and open
relationships and things like that that are difficult is because
it's all all based in who you're having sex with. Yeah,
you know what I mean. Like, if if I'm on
a dating app and I say I'm Polly and people

(45:09):
are like, oh, I'm not into that, I'm like, well,
why don't you take some time and let's talk and
you tell me what you need, and I'll tell you
what I'm looking for, and if those things can jive,
then we can try to, you know, build something, even
if it's just a friendship. Like like, oh oh, this
is what I was going to say earlier. Growing up,

(45:32):
I lost friends opposite sex friends because I told them
how I felt about them. Okay, so I'm like, I
like you for more than just a friend. I would
like to date you. Oh okay, Well now we can't
be friends anymore because you want to fuck me And

(45:55):
I'm like, no, I just want to like go to
a different level than where we are, And if you
can't do that, then I'm okay where we are. I
would just like to move forward if that's an option,
you know what I mean? Sure, but so many people
can't separate.

Speaker 1 (46:12):
That well, to be fair, not many people have actually
probably presented it exactly that way. Whenever they say that
there's a very specific answer that almost everyone thinks you're saying,
and it takes a different kind of communication to communicate
that clearly to someone who has an expectation of where

(46:32):
that conversation is going versus where it is actually going.

Speaker 3 (46:37):
Rights.

Speaker 1 (46:38):
Also, I mean it, pardon me for saying it and
if this is out of line, well that's just what
it is. I'm certain that there are plenty of people
out there who have used whatever line and whatever blah
blah blah that they can to get somebody in bed. Yes,
just because, and so they are the ones who got
to quote unquote enjoy the spoils of the labor while

(47:00):
instilling trauma and distrust in this person, so that whoever
comes later is not going to have as open a mind.

Speaker 3 (47:08):
Oh yeah, there's always going to be people out there
who take advantage of people and use that for their
own selfish goals and desires, and then it's you know,
then it's up unfortunately, I mean, that's going to happen.
But it's up to you, as the person who is
on the receiving end of that, to decide whether you know,

(47:33):
you want to continue in that or or continue in
that style of relationship and let them go, or or say,
oh all people, all poly people are just cheaters and
want to you know, it's an individual choice. It's the
same thing. It's like, yes, you feel an emotion due

(47:55):
to an action as somebody made. Now it's up to
you to decide how you're going to respond to that.
If you're going to respond to that with turning down
every single person who comes to you, then I mean, fine,
do it. That's your life, make that choice. But from
my perspective, you were missing out on a really interesting

(48:15):
opportunity to get to know somebody.

Speaker 1 (48:17):
Yes, I agree, And to be fair, I think that
there are a lot of people out there who have
grown so callous that they just don't choose to see
it that way.

Speaker 3 (48:27):
Right.

Speaker 1 (48:27):
They're like, well, there'll be plenty of others because we
do have such an easy time on the apps or
whatever it is, that there are millions of fish in
the sea, or so we've been told, and they, in
order to streamline a process that can be very frustrating
and angering and disappointing, they're just like, no, right, that's it.

Speaker 3 (48:48):
Well, you know, you look at all those people who
when they're single, they're dating two or three different people
at the same time, you know, trying to kind of
you know whatever, But then they commit to one of
those and they drop everyone else. Yes, it's like why, like,
what was it about those other three people that allowed
you that you within yourself are like, okay, they're not

(49:13):
good enough to be part of my life anymore because
I'm committing to this.

Speaker 1 (49:16):
Person, you know well, and also that that may have
a lot to do with your partner as well. Uh
huh yeah, because if they're not open, if they're not
fully welcoming of the situation, that is very much it
because they've prioritized. Yeah, it's like, who is the one
that I can't afford to lose? And if they force

(49:36):
me to lose the others, am I still willing to
do that to stay with them?

Speaker 3 (49:41):
Yeah? Yeah, Oh, it's the same thing in the photography
industry's you know, you I've worked with hundreds of different models,
and there have been some models who I've worked with
and We've created some of the most amazing art I've
ever made. But then they get into a relationship and
now their boyfriend doesn't you know, want them right right?

(50:07):
No one else can look at this this, you know.
I get the hey, can you take my pictures off
of your Instagram because my boyfriend doesn't like other people
seeing it whatever, you know, And I'm like, you were
really giving this other person that amount of power over you,
you know, And I get that, Oh, I'm sorry, I

(50:27):
can't shoot with you anymore. Because my boyfriend wouldn't like it.
It's like, no, no, no, are you are you making
that choice because you don't want to shoot with me
anymore because you want to give that to your partner
on your own, or are you doing it because your
partner's making you do it? You know? I'm like, own
your choices no matter what they are. I'm not going

(50:48):
to judge you, but just don't do it because your
boyfriend doesn't like it, especially if you have a deep
down desire to want to shoot, but you don't feel
like you can because it'll upset your partner.

Speaker 1 (51:02):
And also, like have you seen Shit's Creek? Have you
ever watched that?

Speaker 3 (51:06):
Ye?

Speaker 1 (51:06):
Yes, I love this water Rose and she's she's talking
to Stevie and she's like, take a million naked pictures
of yourself when you're young and beautiful, And it just
cracks me up because I think of that whenever you're
talking about these women who take these photos or these people.
I don't want to just narrow it down to them,
but like people who take their photos with you and
you make these incredible images of them, and yes, they're

(51:27):
very sensual, and in some there are significant amounts of
stunning beauty and nudity though they're you know, definitely taking
care of so you don't get in trouble with Instagram.
And then, for whatever reason, you have an agreement with
this person that this is going to be the thing,
and then they get in a relationship with someone that
you had no authority in selecting, and now they are

(51:51):
enforcing some sort of thing on the deal that you
have between this model and you as the artist and
creator of these images, and you're just supposed to to
drop everything and be okay with that and just say, oh, well,
because Chester doesn't think it's appropriate, let me remove this
incredible art from my platform. No, how about that, I've

(52:11):
thought about it. The answer is no, thank you.

Speaker 3 (52:14):
Yeah, no I have. I have oftentimes in some situations
have said you can buy the rights.

Speaker 1 (52:23):
Oh absolutely, now, because that still deserves it's a transaction
at that point.

Speaker 3 (52:27):
Yeah. So if I pay a model and I shoot,
then the rights are exclusively mine, like totally completely. They
don't have any obligation to any of the work, any
financial compensation because I have already paid them for their time.
Now I still send If I shoot with a travel

(52:50):
model and I pay them, I still send them images
because I want them to post them on their their
social you know, I mean, part of what I'm paying
is your your visit tresure exposure. Yes, but the majority
of my work I've done is trade, meaning that we
both put in the time and so you get the

(53:11):
edits as much as I do, and you can use
them how you want to, and I can use them
how I want to.

Speaker 2 (53:19):
That's the thing, right, And so usually.

Speaker 3 (53:24):
It happens when those people that have done trade with
come back and say, oh, I'm in a new relationship now.
And as you know, the only time i'll remove something
without any question is if someone got a new job
and it was going to harm their livelihood.

Speaker 1 (53:44):
Sure that I understand a lot case, then I understand
I'll take it down.

Speaker 3 (53:48):
But if it's just because your boyfriend don't like the
fact that you took new pictures.

Speaker 1 (53:53):
Tell him to grow up, please, exactly? Could you please
be a grown ass adult?

Speaker 3 (53:58):
Now? If this becomes an issue and he still wants
it done, then he is more than happy to pay
for those royalties, which are going to be significant, because
I gave you a shit ton more images than you
would have gotten had you paid for it. Yes, so
I've thrown out, you know, big numbers, and there's only
been one person to pay it a great out of

(54:20):
the eight or ten people that have asked me to
remove stuff, you know.

Speaker 1 (54:23):
They're fully this. I get behind this so hard because
that was the deal from the beginning. And that's just it.
Adults make decisions. They have repercussions and consequences and outcomes.
If you want to change those in the future, you
have to come up with the means of procuring it.

Speaker 3 (54:44):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, it's any sort of boundary.
This one's just happened to be a signed contract. You know.
Boundaries can change, contrasts can change, but you have to
come up to and say I want this to change. Okay, well,
then let's negotiate this. Of course we had this contract.
I have access to these images. I own the copyright

(55:05):
to these images. These are my images. You have the
right to do with them as you wish. If you
don't want to post them, fine mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (55:13):
But that doesn't mean I can't exactly exactly.

Speaker 1 (55:17):
Yes, that's it and I love it right yeah.

Speaker 3 (55:22):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (55:22):
Daniel, buddy, thank you so much for joining us here
on Radical Joy.

Speaker 3 (55:25):
Dude, I really appreciate with.

Speaker 1 (55:30):
So take good care of yourself, pack your bags, get ready.
We'll be seeing you in just a couple of weeks.

Speaker 3 (55:35):
Yeah, see you, buddy, all right, budde alright.

Speaker 1 (55:38):
If this is your first episode, welcome friends. We're so
happy to have you with us here at Radical Joy.
If this is not your first episode, welcome back. What
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(56:00):
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(56:23):
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Thank you for taking time to share a moment of
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(56:45):
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Speaker 3 (56:57):
Now.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
I rarely run out of things to talk about, but
if there's something I haven't covered that's on your mind
or heart, I want to hear from you.

Speaker 3 (57:03):
To learn more.

Speaker 1 (57:04):
About me and CLW Studios, follow the links in the
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(57:25):
content produced by CLAU Studios and affiliated partners is not therapy,
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Please consult with your therapist or see what in your
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(57:48):
great one and we will see you next week for
another dose of radical joy.

Speaker 3 (57:53):
Love y'all, to tou