Dr. Cassandra Vieten | Healing the Mind by Coming Home to the Body - Radical Responsibility Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
We are definitely born into this world with a temperamental
biological genetic makeup that significantly influences how we view the world.
If you come into the world with altered dopamine processing
or altered serotonin processing, you are already going to have

(00:20):
greater likelihood that somebody pulls in front of you and
they start slowing down, and you're going to be like,
what the heck is wrong with this guy? You know,
why is he in my way? And you more likely
to personalize it, more likely to view it negatively, more
likely to tell a negative story about it. And whereas
somebody else might be born into this world with the

(00:40):
genetics that have them look at that same experience and say, ooh,
that guy must be having a hard day. Let me
back off a little bit.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
Welcome to the Radical Responsibility Podcast. I'm doctor Fleet Maul,
and I'm excited to guide you on a journey of
authentic transformation. In each episode, I'll bring you insights from
leading experts to explore trauma recovery, mindfulness practices, positive psychology,
and innovative breakthroughs in health, wellness and life optimization. This

(01:11):
is a space for real conversations that inspire meaningful change,
helping you find alignment with the person you are always
meant to be. Let's get started. What if transformation isn't
just about thinking differently, but feeling differently. Science shows us

(01:31):
that true change happens when we align not just our minds,
but also the neural networks in our hearts and guts.
This heart mind connection is the key to deeper healing, resilience,
and expanded awareness. That's why I created the Heart Mind
All Access, membership and community, a space designed to help
you rewire your nervous system, cultivate heart intelligence, and live

(01:53):
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all sharing powerful tools to help you shift your mindset
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(02:19):
You'll also gain unlimited access to every summit and course
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I invite you to join us. Clip the link to

(02:39):
learn more and start your journey today. Have you ever
wondered what might happen if we treated mental help not
as a fixed state, but as a skill. In today's episode,
I have the privilege of sitting down with doctor Cassandra Veaton,
a trailblazer in the fields of psychology, mindfulness, and integrative medicine.

(03:00):
Cassandra brings a rare depth of insight drawn from decades
of clinical research and real world application, including her leadership
at the Center for Mindfulness at uc San Diego and
her pioneering work with mind body interventions, psychedelics, and even
virtual reality for healing. Together, we explore how mental well

(03:20):
being is not just a matter of diagnosing and treating symptoms,
but of cultivating the internal conditions that make transformation possible
from the inside out. Cassandra shares how mindfulness and spiritual
practices can be woven into clinical frameworks and why identity,
when unexamined, can become one of the greatest obstacles to change.

(03:42):
This conversation is an invitation to step beyond resistance into
acceptance and into a more expansive vision of who we
are becoming. Let's dive in. Min name is doctor Fleet Maull,
your co host for this session, and I'm really happy
to be here today with doctor Cassandra of each and
welcome doctor.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
It's great to be with you again.

Speaker 2 (04:02):
So today we're exploring really the power of our beliefs,
both conscious and unconscious, to influence how we perceive the world,
what we make of it, the meeting we add to it,
our reaction to our behaviors, and many sense, the results
we create manifest in our lives. So let's start by
exploring your work in the mind body medicine field. So

(04:23):
I wonder if you could describe mind body medicine for
us a little bit and what role beliefs plan that
or what role mind body medicine can play in transforming
limiting core beliefs to more life enhancing our life confirming beliefs.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
Yeah, well, thank you. I mean I would say that
mind body medicine is just medical care, regular medical care,
but unfortunately, the way that conventional medical care in the
West is performed right now, particularly in the United States,
is a much more biologically oriented type of care. Which
is good. I mean that movement towards biology and measurement

(05:03):
from superstition was a very good one about four or
five six hundred years ago, one thousand years ago. But
the pendulum at this point has gone a little bit
too far in that direction, ignoring the effects of the
mind or belief systems on the body. And what I
mean by that is not that people don't know about it,

(05:24):
because everybody knows about it. It's just that it's not
emphasized in treatments. So a good example I like to
share is I had a friend not too long ago
who had a liver disease, and she went to her doctor,
and she was someone who exercised and had good nutrition,
and he gave her some medication, and she said, is
there anything else I can do about this? And he said, no,

(05:46):
not really, just come back in six months. And I
don't think that's true. I think there are a lot
of things that she could do to help her body
activate its own innate, salutogenic or healing oriented response, including
things like mindfulness, reducing stress, changing belief systems, guided visualization.

(06:09):
There's tons of evidence now that what we think and
what we pay attention to, what we believe what we
visualize has actual biological effects on our bodies, on our brains,
on our hormones, on our gene expression, not only the
functioning of our brains and bodies, but even the structure.
Over not too long a period of time. Evidence shows that,

(06:32):
for example, a daily mindfulness practice for only about twenty
to thirty minutes a day has effects on the brain,
including things like neurogenesis and thickening of the cortex. And
so there really is no separation between mind and body,
and we just need to, I think, rebalance and say, yes,
we do need to address these issues biologically, but we

(06:55):
also need to address them in the realm of what
we think and imagine and believe.

Speaker 2 (07:00):
And so we know today that most chronic illnesses. We
can look at this both in terms of healing illness
as well as optimizing health and wellbeing. Right, but in
terms of illnesses, we know most chronic illnesses arise from
some kind of systemic inflammation, which is really has to
do with our mind states, right, chronic stress, which is

(07:21):
related the mind states and other things that, as you said,
impact gene expression. What we know today about epigenetics and
so forth. So our mind states are all important, and
our beliefs have a lot of impact on our mind
state because what we believe about ourselves and the world
influences how we interpret what we're experiencing, and then that
can lead to states of chronic stress, or it can

(07:43):
lead to states of mind states or hard sets that
support more harmonious or kind of a balanced way of
being with our lives. So I wonder if we could
explore a little bit your sense of the connection between
beliefs and how the mind then influences health for better
or worse.

Speaker 1 (08:01):
Yeah, I mean, it's really a bidirectional, it's really completely blended.
But let's say for now there are two polls. It's
bidirectional that the body in biology affects the mind in
very profound ways. And you know, if you have less
circulating serotonin, you are definitely going to feel less happy,
less less of the feeling of everything's going to be okay,

(08:24):
or I'm a generally good person, or I live in
a generally good world. So for sure, biology affects the mind.
There's no question, and I am absolutely not against biological
treatments that the mind also affects the body, and so
it really needs to be addressed at both levels, and
it really should be more like a three legged stool.

(08:45):
That there's the environment. So your beliefs and worldviews and
what you imagine and visualize affects your body. Your body
affects your mind and what you believe and how you
talk to yourself, and then all of that is encompassed
with your environment. And there's also a little bit less
attention to creating a healing environment than I think there

(09:08):
should be. That can go anywhere from changing your room
to one that when you wake up you feel happy,
you know, painting the colors in your room and having
things on your bedside table and putting your phone outside
of your room or outside of reach while you're sleeping,
and all those kinds of the people you hang out with,
the TV shows you watched, what you listen to, what

(09:30):
you read, all of those things in your environment affect
both mind and body. And so it's really important that
we start to look at this more holistically and say,
when I'm feeling out of sorts or when I'm feeling ill,
what is going on with my physiology? What is going
on with my mind and my beliefs, my story, my narrative,

(09:50):
and what's going on in my environment and really address
all three.

Speaker 2 (09:54):
You've spoken about a kind of malehealth renaissance that were
in these days with innovative approaches and mental health including
psychoicasists of therapies, cold exposure, various kinds of energy medicine,
mind training, mindfulness, and so forth. So I wonder how
this kind of movement, this mental health renaissance, challenges some

(10:15):
of our older beliefs about mental health and what dominated
the field of psychiatry and where that could be leading us.

Speaker 1 (10:22):
The mental health renaissance I like to talk about because
we talk a lot about the mental health crisis, and
if you read the news and listen to the news
and everything, all you hear about is the epidemic of
loneliness and the depression and anxiety, and all those things
are true. There's definitely a major crisis happening, and it's
really good that people are talking about it more than

(10:45):
they used to talk about it and stating the truth
about what is so about the poor state of mental
health and across our world right now. But at the
same time, there is this very there's reason for optimism
because there's a big wave of mental health treatments that
are going far beyond antidepressants, going far beyond our previous

(11:10):
ideas of talk therapy, sitting in a room and talking
to someone. Now, both of those have helped me considerably
throughout my life, and they help a lot of other people,
So I'm not putting them down. But what we need
to add to those is all of these other ways
that you can sort of hack the system. You know,
hot and cold exposure you mentioned. There's some really good

(11:31):
data showing that exposing yourself to a cold bath or
an ice bath, exposing yourself to heat, either a hot
tub or a hot sauna, or alternating between the two,
has substantial effects on mood and well being. We've already
mentioned mindfulness, just simply sitting paying attention to your breathing
and your body sensations, practicing that for about twenty minutes

(11:54):
a day, doing it in a particular way with kindness, openness, compassionness,
Practicing that and learning it and allowing yourself to witness
your train of thought. Teaching yourself to witness your body's
sensations and your thoughts as opposed to being completely fused
with them, turns out to be an incredibly powerful antidepressant

(12:17):
anti anxiety because you might still have those feelings arise
or those thoughts arise, but there's a part of you
that's witnessing arising, and that part of you that's witnessing
is not itself in the depression or anxiety. And so
more and more people learn to say, well, I'm having
some depressive thoughts, but I don't feel miserable. I'm not suffering,

(12:40):
and that is a big change. Another you mentioned is psychedelics,
that we are beginning to carefully, thoughtfully use these agents
that have been used for millennia to shift people's perspectives
and to give them insights, to be able to help
people break outside of their narrow box of thinking, come

(13:02):
up with new ideas and insights about things that may
have plagued them throughout their entire lives, and then when
they come back from that altered state of consciousness with
help from another person, typically integrating those new insights and saying, Okay, well,
if this belief I had about myself my whole entire
life is not true and I just had an embodied

(13:25):
experience in an altered state of consciousness, not only that
it's not true, but that belief has been harming me.
And decided to let it go. It's amazing how sometimes
those sessions, only one session, can be completely life changing,
and that once you've had that insight, it's hard to unhabit.
It stays with you.

Speaker 2 (13:46):
Yeah, I think it's really fascinating how psycholic experiences properly
held can really illuminate mindsets and belief structures that have
been creating a lot of our own suffering. And yeah,
we see it clearly enough that we have possibly actually
letting that go. We both see how their negative influence
on a life, and we see they're kind of untruth
or at least they're just one possible narrative and obviously

(14:08):
something that's malleable and changeable. So that's quite fascinating. You
also mentioned the hot and cold exposure. I haven't invested
in a cold plunge tub yet, but I have been
doing cold showers for several years religiously every morning, and
I do think it's very helpful.

Speaker 1 (14:23):
You know, we've mentioned some more extreme practices, but even
less extreme, just being out in nature for a particular
amount of time every day or every week, paying attention
to spending time with loved ones, and being fully present
while you're spending the time with the loved ones, engaging
in specific times of day, or you know, setting aside

(14:48):
time for exploration of your spiritual practices or religious practices,
or if you're not a spiritual or religious person, existential
contemplation about humanistic values that are important to you. Truth, beauty, justice, honesty, gratitude, journaling, art, creativity,

(15:09):
being of service. There's an entire world out there of
things that you can engage in that do change the
way you think, the way you view yourself, the way
you view the world, and your brain and your body.

Speaker 2 (15:24):
Absolutely, and it's biotic, may be more tragic in some
cases that as you mentioned, there's a lot of challenges
in our world today where people talk about the poly crisis.
There's so many crises going on, as well as the
existential threat of human caused climate change that creates a
lot of anxiety for a lot of us. And there
does seem to be an epidemic of anxiety and depression

(15:45):
and suicidality and so forth. And at the same time,
we've never had access to more tools that would support
healing and support optimizing our health and wellbeing. And I mean,
any of these tools have been around forever, but there's
more information about them. Ever, now there's a lot of
research demonstrating how and why they work, and then there's
new tools that have been developed, and so it's kind

(16:07):
of an interesting time that we have all this available
to us, and I guess it's what we really need
is in wider public education, which is really the purpose
of these summits, so that people will begin making use
of these tools to address, you know, what's really been
going on societally, which is, you know, maybe the news
sends uspen it to the negative a bit, but it
is pretty widespread the suffering that's happening for people. So

(16:28):
but the good news is we know how to address it.

Speaker 1 (16:31):
A couple things I didn't even mention yet are exercise
and nutrition. And so I was trained as a psychologist,
a clinical psychologist, and me and most of my colleagues
were not trained at all in any form of how
exercise affects the mood or the brain, or the thinking patterns,
or nutrition. So it's really unfortunate that somebody can go

(16:55):
in for mental health treatment and get treatment for years
and never once have the involvement of a physical trainer
or a nutritionist. You know, those kinds of divides still exist.
And I've been working with the John W. Brick Mental
Health Foundation for quite a while now, and this is
one thing that they're trying to break down, is the

(17:18):
divide between the exercise world and the mental health world.
And I think there's going to be some really interesting
things happening in that domain. For example, they just created
a certification program for fitness professionals to be mental health informed,
and the next step will be to create a certification
program for mental health professionals to be movement informed. And

(17:41):
so building those bridges is very important, really important.

Speaker 2 (17:45):
I've often felt that one of the best things a
therapist or a psychiatrist could do, rather than sitting in
a small room with their patient and then prescribing if something,
would be to go out and go for a walk together,
to a walk. You've also been involved in virtual reality,
virtual reality tools that can help with perspective in the
same way that maybe psycholic experiences would create a perspective

(18:06):
shift or a shift in consciousness, that there are virtual
reality tools that can do. So I want if you
share your experience with that.

Speaker 1 (18:13):
Yeah, well, I mean I've been just kind of obsessed
throughout my career with how can we shift people's perspectives.
How can we help them see new possibilities that allow
them to be kinder to themselves and others and the planet.
And there's a really good reason why we have fixed beliefs.

(18:34):
It has to do with cognitive efficiency. And so one
of the ways we move through the world as we
are born and you are raised and get older is
we create these cognitive categories and we say, okay, this
is like this, this is like this, this is like this.
We do it based on similarity and difference. So and

(18:55):
then we do it based on what we like and
what we don't like, what causes pleasure, what causes pain.
And they're kind of pretty binary things, you know, is
it good? Is it bad? Do I like it? Do
I not like it? Is it this or is it bad?
Is it like me or is it not like me?
So that's kind of how the computer of our brain works.
And it's really good because otherwise we'd walk through wake
up every day and have to relearn everything every single day.

(19:16):
So we don't want that. The problem is when they
get so fixed and so rigid that they're driving our lives,
either consciously or unconsciously, and they're driving us to engage
in thought patterns and behaviors that are not good for us,
they're not good for our loved ones, they're not good
for the planet. And so trying to shake up those rigid,

(19:37):
concretized beliefs is a big trick because the brain is
wired to not have those shaken up. It's immune to
change in a way. So what we need to do
often is have some kind of a profound experience that
shifts our perspective, and that can come from a spiritual experience.

(20:00):
Mentioned it's fairly reliable actually that it would come from
a psilocybin session, and even better with preparation, with somebody
sitting with you, with integration afterwards, and it doesn't necessarily
change people for in a lasting way. You still have
to engage in practices after you've had one of those
Aha moments that help you to integrate it into your life.

(20:21):
Otherwise you might be stuck just searching for that Aha
moment over and over again and still kind of being
a jerk on the freeway, and you know, not doing
behaviors to help change yourself for the planet. So you've
got to follow up those big moments with practice. But
this is a long answer to say that one of
the things I got really interested in was virtual reality,
which I do work with pretty often. This is my

(20:44):
little headset in my office. And when I first got
introduced to virtual reality, I did an experience in kind
of a big open space and I put on the
headset and the people had created a full or that
you walk across in the virtual world, and it looked
kind of like a cartoon. So it's just a metal

(21:06):
floor that you're walking across, and then all of a sudden,
either side of you falls four stories and you're on
a tiny plank that you're walking. And so immediately my
whole entire body gets a cold sweat, you know, I'm like,
oh my gosh. And then they say, turn to your
left and now just simply walk off the plank, allow

(21:30):
yourself to fall the four stories in virtual reality. And
I could not do it. I could not get my
body to do it. And my heart is beating, you know,
my nervous system is completely activated. And the first thought
I had was, Oh, my gosh, this is going to work,
Like this is going to work to help people have
experiences that change their perspective. It's powerful enough, and the

(21:52):
illusion is powerful enough that I think it can do something.
We know it can do something biologically because I'm sweating
right now, my heart is eating fast. So anyway, we've
created several virtual reality experiences. One is taking people into space,
having them wake up on the Moon basically and come
back to the Earth from the Moon in a space capsule.

(22:15):
This was a collaboration with the Institute of This is
produced by the Institute of Nordic Sciences using real NASA
footage and audio, as well as edgar Mitchell, who was
the sixth person to walk on the Moon and the
founder of the Institute of Nordic Sciences, who has passed
away since, using his narration of what it was like

(22:36):
for him to go back to the Earth from space.
So beautiful music, and it's really trying to give people
at least an echo of what we call the overview
effect that astronauts experience when they look at the Earth
from space and they see there are no boundaries between
countries and they have an increased social consciousness. They feel

(22:57):
much more convinced that we are all one species on
this planet, and even that the entire planet is an
interconnected hole. Everyone deserves life and love, and that there's
when you look at the Earth from space, it's so
small in this vast billions of miles of blackness that

(23:18):
you become much more interested in making sure that you
care for it and that we preserve it and many
other things. And so we're trying to give people that
experience in space. We also take people into VR and
teach them how to meditate and self compassion practices in
highly conducive environments like a you know, island resort where

(23:40):
there's a beautiful meditation room with birds and waves and
a bamboo forest and you know. So these are conditions.
As I mentioned before, the environment is important, and so
these are conditions where you can give someone an a
losory environment and make it easier for them to be
able to learn metaditation and self compassion. And then ideally

(24:02):
when they come back to ordinary reality, they have had
that a little bit of that insight and they're able
to translate it into their everyday lives.

Speaker 2 (24:12):
Are any of these virtual reality programs publicly available?

Speaker 1 (24:16):
Yeah, there's the edgar Mitchell VR experience is on Steam,
which is one of the most popular virtual reality stores
on the internet. So if you go to Steam and
look up edgar Mitchell VR experience. You can also just
watch it on YouTube. But two D if you want
to know what it's like. The other one, compassion Island

(24:36):
we call it, is in a platform called vr chat,
which is open source. And maybe after this I can
give you the way that people can get into it.
You can put it with my bio. But we're using
these in experiments. We're looking at people's biology, their heart
rate variability, their self reports of how they feel before

(24:57):
and after, behavioral measures where them go through tasks online
and see if it changes their perception or their responses
or reactions. And it's a fascinating field of study, but
it's all focused on how do we shift people out
of those rigid perspectives, those very fixed perspectives that can

(25:18):
be harmful.

Speaker 2 (25:19):
Well, it's really fascinating. And that experience you had being
on the plank being willing to step off that plank
reminds me of doing a firewalk, which I did do
one time.

Speaker 1 (25:28):
Yeah, really shifts your mind about what's possible.

Speaker 2 (25:31):
Yeah, So I wonder if we could talk for a
moment about the relationship between beliefs and what are sometimes
called limiting core beliefs and how we transform those so one,
maybe taking a psychological perspective, you can develop more awareness
around limiting core beliefs that you may have, paying attention
to your self talk or by other means, and then

(25:52):
begin to look at those and see whether they were
all formed in our childhood. None of us escape childhood
without some of them. You can see them as maybe
reasonable things that we came up with at one point
or not to interpret our world, to make sense the world,
or even to keep ourselves safe. But then we can
look at them, are they currently serving us or not?
Or are they back really decidedly not serving us? You know,

(26:14):
look the ways to deconstruct them, no longer believe in them,
replace them with other beliefs, so we could kind of
directly address the beliefs and try to change them directly.
But you also mentioned all the things we can be
doing for our health and well being, diet and exercise
and proper breathing and hydration, mindfuluence practices, and some of
these other things like cold and hot exposure and psychaic experiences,

(26:37):
these virtual reality experiences and some of these experiences. I'm
curious if you feel just engaging more that might almost
organically begin to shift some of our perspectives and beliefs,
we might just kind of organically develop a more positive
view about ourselves in the world, because a lot of
the limiting core beliefs basically have to do it with
feeling like all the ways in which I'm not enough,

(27:00):
and then all the ways in which there's not enough
of what's desirable to go around, you know, love and
land and wealth and fame and respect and all that,
and therefore we have this fear based view of the world.
You know, I'm probably not good enough to get it,
and there's not enough of it, and so I'm in
this constant struggle. And so I'm wondering if these two

(27:22):
different approaches maybe to transforming those polats, one kind of
directly identifying specific limiting core beliefs and looking to deconstruct
them or change them or replace them, and the other
way they might just kind of organically begin to ship
by engaging in these health and wellbeing activities.

Speaker 1 (27:38):
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I teach a workshop at the
Essallent Institute called How We Change and Why We Don't,
and that is a workshop that is very focused on
translating what we've learned about ways that people do change
their core story, and some of it is surprising. And
as number one I would say about what you said,

(28:01):
not all of them come from childhood. We are definitely
born into this world with a temperamental biological genetic makeup
that significantly influences how we view the world. So if
you come into the world with altered dopamine processing or

(28:22):
altered serotonin processing, you are already going to have the
greater likelihood that somebody pulls in front of you and
they start slowing down, and you're going to be like,
what the heck is wrong with this guy? You know,
why is he in my way? And you more likely

(28:43):
to personalize it, more likely to view it negatively, more
likely to tell a negative story about it. And whereas
somebody else might be born into this world with the
genetics that have them look at that same experience and say, ooh,
that guy must be having a hard day. Let me
back up a little bit. You know, it's just a
different personality.

Speaker 2 (29:02):
Well, genetic inheritances that you're describing there that may set
us up to have a more positive or less helpful
neurochemical Yeah, well, Kent City, those can also be sort
of epigenetic factors.

Speaker 1 (29:14):
Right, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, you can come in with like
an increased sensitivity, which could lead to you being very
empathic and loving and caring, or could lead to you
if you have negative childhood experiences, could lead to you
being sensitive in a way that's not helpful, you know,

(29:35):
easily offended and reactive. But I think it's really important
for all of us to just sort of say, like, hey,
I was dealt a hand of cards when I got here,
and then whatever happened in my childhood and in my upbringing,
not only through my parents and family, but through society itself,
through religion, through culture, through socioeconomic status, through media. I

(29:55):
mean a million things right have built where I am today,
my own experiences, my culture, what was passed down to me,
intergenerational traumas and intergenerational blessings and privilege. And so here
you are, with this beautiful, messy, wonderful, icky ball of

(30:17):
yarn that you are. You know, let's say what you
want to do with that ball of yarn is weave
it into a tapestry that is your life. And so
the second thing I would say is there's been a
lot of focus on letting go of beliefs that don't
serve you or getting rid of things inside of you
that you don't like. And I tend to teach something

(30:39):
that's called radical inclusion, which is that every aspect of yourself,
no matter how negative, no matter how difficult, is welcome.
That it is a part of you that gets to stay.
And the difference is that it may not be allowed
to take the driver's seat anymore. So you might say,

(31:01):
I have a part of me that tends to be
very self critical. It'll tell me that I'm all the
things that you were just saying. You know, I'm worthless,
I'm not good enough, I'm not this, I'm not that.
And when that voice starts to speak up, I notice
that it's talking and I say, oh, there's that voice again.
I know that one so well. And I say, come

(31:21):
on over here, sit next to me. I got you.
You know, I'm going to put my arm around you.
You're going to sit right next to me, and you're
not going to drive the car. And I understand when
you feel insecure, when you feel like you're not worth it.
Let's do all the things that we know counteract that feeling,
which is everything you and I just talked about being
in nature and being with friends and doing our practices,

(31:44):
writing and journaling, and a million different things. Being able
to begin to not only tolerate, but welcome and even
love those parts of yourself with a kind compassion, but
also with a firm boundary compassion that says you get
to stay, but you don't get to drive. That's one thing.

(32:06):
Another thing is, just as you said, one of the
things we've found is that very often addressing an issue
in your life head on or directly doesn't work. You know,
let's say you have trouble with overeating, or you have
trouble with finding difficult relationships, or you have trouble manifesting

(32:26):
the job that you want to have, and many other things.
You could keep hammering away on that weakness or that
difficulty of yours for years, and it may not ever
go anywhere, because you're in a locked battle between a
couple parts of yourself. But what you can do is
make your internal and external environment less hospitable to the

(32:49):
way of being that you don't want and more hospitable
to the way of being that you do want. And
so it's called creating the conditions, and that's inside. How
do I create my internal conditions that are less hospitable
to the ways of being that I don't want and
more hospitable to the ways of being that I do want.
What makes it more likely that I'm going to be

(33:11):
the way I want to be. So let's say that
I really want to exercise in my life, and so
one thing that might make it more possible is if
I lay out a yoga matt with weights with stretchy bands,
with a table that has my laptop on it that
I plug in the night before, I bring up the

(33:31):
exercise video I want to do, so that when I
wake up, I get a drink, I take care of myself,
and then I hop onto that mat and do it.
So much more likely than if I'm sitting in bed
with my phone going, oh God, I wish I would
get out my exercise stuff this morning. That's a silly example,
that's a superficial example, but it's actually not because if

(33:53):
you did it, and you did it for twenty minutes
every morning, it would change your entire life, your mood,
your hormone, your neurotransmitters. And so that's the third thing
I guess I would say is small changes. What you
know that book Atomic Habits, Small changes really make a
gigantic difference. We all have this belief that, you know,

(34:16):
if I don't go to meditating for an hour every day,
that I'm not really doing it. It's not true. Five
minutes a day at the beginning, seven minutes, eight minutes,
nine minutes. If you can get yourself up to fourteen
minutes a day, your life will change. And so really
paying attention to those small changes that make big differences, this.

Speaker 2 (34:35):
Is incredibly helpful. What you've really been talking about is
strategies for change now and your reference taking this more
acceptance based approach, and we've learned from the field of
mindfluence with mindfluence based well general mindfluance altogether, the importance
of the attitudinal qualities that John Cabutain emphasises, for example,
but also modalities like acceptance commitment therapy and dialectical behavioral

(34:58):
therapy rather than that old their style of cognitive behavioral
that you know, let's just replace the bad thoughts with
good thoughts, so kind of almost doing surgery on yourself.
It's more this acceptance approach which tends to then lessen
the influence of those more negative thought patterns of beliefs
on us and gives us more space in order to
make different decisions. And then also it sounded like you

(35:21):
were referencing with the parts, you know, voice, dialogue and
internal Yeah, and you know the sportsbook there are no
bad parts. So again the yeah albtance approach.

Speaker 1 (35:31):
Yeah, yeah, I find it very powerful, and you know
it's for many people, it's paradoxical. You know, they've been
trying to wrestle these things to the map their whole life.
They've been trying to kick them out and eliminate them forever.
And when they finally say, you know, this is not
a thing that you need to eliminate. In fact, bring
it closer, be examine it more closely, be curious about it,

(35:52):
be fascinated by it, you know, and those inner parts
of us that have been trying often to protect us
in a weird way, once they start to get listened to,
and you know, there's a Tibetan practice called feeding your demons.
Sometimes you need to make deals with those inner voices
and say, look, you don't get to do that, but
what is one thing that would help you, What is

(36:14):
one thing that would allow you to allow me to
be this different way? And they say, well, you know,
if I could have a hot fudge Sunday once a week,
I would feel much better about letting you do this,
you know, plant based diet that you want to do,
and you're like, okay, deal, you know, let's do it right.
So you can work with the parts of yourself and

(36:37):
instead of continuing to fight with them, continuing to try
to wrestle them to the mat, most of them are
not ever going to give up. There. We have this
built in immunity to change. I mean, you know, I
think if you can change a belief system inside of you,
knock yourself out. Like I would say, one example in
my own life was, and this happened in part through

(36:57):
psychedelic journeys, is you know, I'm a curvy person. I'm
five feet tall, I'm curby. My entire family is you know,
back to who knows how long ago is curvy. And
I didn't realize until I took a psychedelic journey that
I had really been so ashamed of my body, just
so mad at myself and so much like you know,

(37:21):
you should be slim. That's the only way to be
healthy is to be slim. And every time you see
a curve, every time you see a bulge. Every time
you see a pooch, it's a reason to be ashamed,
which means that happens almost every day all the time.
And so finally getting into a much bigger perspective and
goddesses throughout the centuries and Greek statues throughout the centuries,

(37:45):
and you know Indian dancers, and I mean I just
had floods and floods of women throughout millennia having curvy
bodies and absolutely fell in love with the exquisiteness of
every single curve on my body. And that has never
gone away. I mean, since I had that insight, I've

(38:06):
never been motivated by shame or self hatred around my body.
That is a big perspective shift. That's a big thing
that changes the quality of life on an everyday basis.
And I wouldn't if you had asked me before that,
are you ashamed of yourself all day long? I would
have been like, no, what are you talking about? You know,
so you don't know, sometimes these things are happening. So

(38:29):
those kinds of moments of insight that lead to long
term freedom from a limiting belief are absolutely powerful in
terms of increasing quality of life.

Speaker 2 (38:39):
Yah, that's an incredible example some of the liberating insights
that come from psychaic experiences. So to reinforce this quality
of acceptance that we can really come from a place
of self acceptance, self compassion, and working with our internal
psychological and neurobiological landscape rather than trying to shove ourselves
around or do surgery on ourselves regardless of what epigenetic

(39:01):
factors we may have inherited and so forth. It's universal
that the negativity bias that's referenced in our human psychology
and neu biology, the job one for any species is survival.
So we're set up to pay more attention to the
threat than anything else, and so our long term memory
ends up build with that, and we end up, you know,
tending to spend things, and nobody escapes that. That's just

(39:22):
the human condition, right right, So we're all born with that,
and we can realize that's just part of life, and
we have the human capacity to be conscious and sort
of transcend that and not let it run our lives.
But we have to proactively, We need to proactively do things.
So we have the ability to do that, but it's there,
it's there to keep us alive. But if it dominates
our life. That's not so helpful, but that's just the

(39:43):
universal human conditions. Yeah, the more we look at it
and understand it's working, the more we can turn it
to our good, to our benefit, the more we understand
what kind of really makes us kick.

Speaker 1 (39:53):
Yeah. Yeah, My friend Rick Hanson likes to say, you know,
humans in general are like velcrow for negative experiences and
have lun for positive ones, and that means that you
have to purposely, intentionally what he calls take in the good.
You know, when you experience things that are working, things
that feel good, things that are flowing, that you have

(40:16):
to spend time paying attention to it and even bringing
it back up to mind, like boy, that was a
wonderful day I had outside with my partner yesterday, or
you know, write it down, journal about it so that
you can purposely make it more velcrow inside of you.
And those kinds of experiences actually serve as antidotes to

(40:39):
stress and difficulty if we pay greater attention to them.

Speaker 2 (40:44):
You also referenced you know, setting yourself, setting ourselves up
for success, and all the wonderful insights that will come
out of recent books like Atomic Habits and Tiny habits
and others. We know a lot today about how habits
are formed, how they can be transformed and changed. And
one of the the key insights I think is setting
ourselves up for success or even a health habit like

(41:05):
leaving your phone out of your bedroom when you go
to sleep at night, because a lot of us can
get into that pattern of waking up and immediately looking
at our phones and look at me, look at the
news and what are we getting. We're getting a lot
of stress from that, right, and just leaving the phone downstairs,
you're much more likely not to do that. Takes a
lot after get up, run downstairs, get your phone, and

(41:25):
engage in that right. So very simple things can set
us up with success in that way.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
Yeah, and I think it's important to also address even
though they're simple, even though they're small, even though they're
all of those things, they're not easy. And you know
that is something that's really lies at the core of
some of this too, is if something we're going to

(41:50):
change your life, like twenty minutes of exercise a day,
wouldn't you do it? Would be a complete no brainer,
But we're not, We don't know, we don't always do it,
and so That's the next frontier of this whole thing
about rewiring your beliefs is why wouldn't I do those things? Well,
why wouldn't That's something to contemplate. One reason maybe that

(42:14):
you are simply under resource. You're working too much, or
you're taking care of other people too much, and you
simply do not have any extra batteries left. That's a
real thing, and that means, Okay, I'm going to have
to actually schedule the time for myself to do these things,

(42:36):
and to not only do them, but have the spontaneous
time for fun and play and relaxation so that I
can build up some energy reserves to be able to
do these things.

Speaker 2 (42:49):
Personal change, personal transformation all requires energy. And you know,
just again pointing the importance of fundamental self care habits.
How do we take care of ourselves so we have
the energy for our life to go in a direction
we'd like it to go.

Speaker 1 (43:03):
Yeah, yeah, And then there are other reasons why we
don't do it. We may be having mental health struggles.
That depression makes it very hard to sometimes make it
down to your mailbox, much less on some kind of
a twenty minute exercise routine. So when you are having
those kinds of problems. That is when it's really helpful

(43:23):
to bring in a community, to bring in other people
who can help serve as scaffolding as you're rebuilding yourself.
We cannot, almost very rarely can humans do this alone.
And so if you look at something like a twelve
step program, that is a good example of a community

(43:45):
that has set into place inside of the community several
of the aspects that we know help people change and
help sustain change. Social support, you know, repid repeated ritual,
spirituality practices, you know, all these kinds of things that
are included in a community like that, you know, having

(44:09):
one other person be paired with you to help you
walk through the first stages. So it might not be
a twelve step program. It might be some other form
of community, a meditation community or a church, or you know,
even if you can find a community that's Oh, there's
a great one called integral Transformative Practice that comes out

(44:30):
of Esslen and Michael Murphy and George Leonard created eight
practices and usually in fall, regional groups all over the
world will start a year long process where they all
meet together and work on these things. So I highly
recommend that if you are having struggles with things that
you've struggled with for a long time, and you've tried

(44:50):
to do it on your own. It's really helpful to
find a community of practice of like minded folks. They
don't have to be exactly like minded, you know, you know,
they don't need to be copies of you or else.
That would be kind of boring. To find a community
that's interesting, that seems like it's engaging in practices that
are new and could help form a scaffolding as you

(45:12):
move forward in your path.

Speaker 2 (45:14):
Yeah, there are a number of communities like ken Wilber
also has the integal Life practices and community that at
heart mind. We have a membership that does that, and
so I think it is really important to engage in that.
You mentioned the twelve Step work addictions as an example
where we can you know, if we're suffering with addiction
and we can study about it and learn about it
and be able to get a PhD about our own

(45:35):
addictive cycles, it'll still be completely unable to break free
from it. Yeah, the importance of community is so important there.
I wonder if you also mentioned depression. I wanted to
ask you about that. So we talked about all the
things we can do that are healthy force, that will
help us change and optimize and will change our beliefs
over time or at least not have negative police driver

(45:56):
alive so much, and there's just so many different things
we can do. But when someone's the press, yes, they
may know about all those things that just not have
the ability or the will or the energy to do them.
So what might be some strategies there where someone can
make that if you mentioned community, but again that could
be something that's almost depressed or unlikely to engage in community.

Speaker 1 (46:15):
Yeah, yeah, it's really difficult. I mean, first of all,
I am a big proponent of asking for medical help
or therapeutic help. You might need treatment, you might need
inpatient treatment. You might need to ask for intensive outpatient
which is where you go to therapy all day, every

(46:35):
day or every afternoon. You may need to see a therapist,
but also be in groups that are supportive of what's
going on with you. So when you get to the
point where you cannot help yourself and you can't even
get to these self help groups that might help you,

(46:56):
that's when it really is time to call for medical help.
I also advise everyone to even if you're not in
that place right now. One in four people experience a
serious mental health challenge every year, and so it's important
that you come up with a plan. What is your
insurance cover if you did get into a situation like that,

(47:19):
who would you call? What is your mental health plan?
Because when you get into that situation, that's the worst
time to try to find help. What you want to
do is have it in your back pocket and be like,
I know what my insurance covers, I know who that
mental health professional is, and that's who I will call
if I get into a deep, dark place that I
can't get out of. So that's one.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
Yeah, I have a colleague. I do a lot of
work in the corrections field and public safety. I have
a colleague who's a now retired police lieutenant, and he
talks about being a police officer. He knows he's exposed
to both primary and secondary trauma, chronic stress. That's just
part of his job, and so to work smart, he
knows he needs to take care of himself. So he

(48:01):
has regular check ins with is what he calls his
mental health coach, which is his therapist, right and he
just considers that's just being smart, being prevented in terms
of taking care of himself. We all necessarily have to
have a therapist, but we might want to know how
to access a therapist just in case. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:18):
Yeah, And you know I work with police too, and
they call it a perishable skill. You know, you have
to keep learning how to hit a target. You have
to keep learning every year you update your skills. It's
the same thing with mental health. It is a little
bit of a perishable skill. You need to keep it
up over time and sometimes it's one of the analogies

(48:41):
I've heard is like clearing the brush around your house.
If you live in a fire zone, you know you
want to clear the brush around your house pretty often.
You don't want to be clearing it when the fire's
on its way.

Speaker 2 (48:50):
Absolutely, So, we have a lot of mental health providers,
therapists and so forth in our audience, and I know
you've done work around spiritual competencies or mental health professionals,
and so those will probably be of interest to our
lay audience as well. So I want to I think
could talk about those a little bit.

Speaker 1 (49:09):
Yeah, I mean, this project really came out of the
understanding that most therapists and psychologists have not been trained
in addressing the spiritual or religious aspects of people's lives,
and that is a very important part of many people's lives.
It can be for I don't know, sixty to seventy

(49:31):
percent of people will say it's the number one driving
influence of their lives. It's how they make sense of
their life, is their spiritual or religious beliefs. It's how
they make sense of something as large as losing a
loved one, all the way down to how they cope
with having a flat tire on the freeway. You know,
it's a very important part of people's psychological lives that

(49:53):
most psychologists and mental health professionals have not really learned
how to address. Obviously, there are some people who have,
but most general psychologists and mental health professionals will not
ask you specifically about your spiritual or religious beliefs. And
I think that's a real shame because of how important
it is in people's psychological lives. A lot of them

(50:15):
also don't ask. They don't really know how to ask,
or what's effective or what's ethical, or would it be intrusive,
would it be welcomed by the patients, so they just
did avoid it. So one thing we're doing is trying
to establish what competency should every mental health professional know
how to do and what skills should they apply. And

(50:36):
it starts with just inquiring do you have any spiritual
or religious beliefs? Are they relevant in all to the
issue that you're bringing in. If you don't have spiritual
or religious beliefs, what principles or values do you hold
most sacred? You know, what is the overall purpose of
your life in your mind? Do you feel like you
have an assignment in the larger level? These questions are

(50:59):
very important to ask people because one thing that we
know is people rarely maintain changes because they should do it.
They maintain changes when it becomes a part of their identity.
I am the kind of person who does this, and
that's everything from personal changes to societal changes like things

(51:22):
that lead to climate change, behaviors and such. So it's
never very effective to tell people what they should do,
or even to tell yourself what you should do. It's
more effective to find out how is this aligned with
my larger purpose identity driving force in my life? If

(51:42):
my assignment is to for me help shift people's perspectives
so that they can see new possibilities that allow them
to be kinder to themselves others in the planet. What
behaviors do I need to engage in to achieve to
be in alignment with that purpose? And when you start
to align your behaviorhaviors with your overarching purpose and you

(52:02):
bring that purpose to mind on a frequent basis, it
becomes more about what you're moving toward than what you're
moving away from. And when you live your life about
what you're moving toward instead of what you're moving away from.
There's just a more joyful feeling about changing these behaviors
as opposed to oh I should I know, I should

(52:24):
do that, you know that kind of stuff. So that's
a really important piece is to delve into what is
your assignment, what is your big assignment? What is your purpose?
What is the driving principle in your life? And write
it down, bring it to mind, put it on your
bedside table, put it on your mirror, and then you
can use it as a litmus test when you come

(52:46):
up with difficult decisions or when you're trying to decide
should I indulge myself right now with something and say
is this advancing that purpose? Or is it moving me away?
From my purpose.

Speaker 2 (52:57):
I'm glad you brought up the notion of identity. I
think we can think of identity almost as a kind
of meta belief in a way, or collection griefs. And
I personally think it's one of the greatest obstacles to change.
And we so often hear people say, well, that's just
the way I am. I've always been that way. I
don't see how I could be different than it. That's
always the way I've felt about things. That's just the

(53:18):
way I am. And we all need identity. I mean,
maybe we can get to spiritual heights where we go
beyond the need of identity. It requires quite a bit
of work, I think, but most of as we you know,
we're born these very fragile creatures in a symbiotic relationship
with our mother or a surrogate parent, and then we
have to begin to individuate, and so we start building
an identity from which to navigate this challenging world, especially

(53:42):
as a little type full of these giants. And so
we build an identity out of whatever is available to us,
and depending on our childhood is that may be more
or less functional and more or less benevolent, but it
becomes our identity, and the alternative is kind of black
hole of emptiness, groundlessness. That's an aspect of life. Then
we explore in spiritual tradition and to psychedelics and other means.
As adults we can begin to maybe get more comfortable

(54:04):
with that, but at children, we have no way to
embrace groundlessness and emptiness and these kind of things, so
we hold on to our identities pretty tightly. So I
think identities can be really one of the biggest obstacles
to change, but also one of the greatest facilitators have
changed personally. I finally stopped smoking in my thirties, and
after trying to quit many times, it was really when

(54:26):
my identity shifted. It clearly happened for me that I
instead of seeing myself as a smoker, somebody who loved
a cigarette but knew it wasn't good for me and
wanted to try to quit, I really my identity became
that of a non smoker who stopped with smoking as
kind of a messy habit, kind of off putting, kind
of you know, obviously bad for health, but also it
was kind of something that you know, astre suddenly looked

(54:48):
kind of disgusting, and my whole identity shade. So now
I'm a non smoker and never smoked again. It became quiet.
So I wonder if you could say a little more
about identity and how we work with identity.

Speaker 1 (55:00):
Yeah, I mean I think it's you know, I love that.
And it's like, what story do you tell yourself about yourself?
And what story do you tell yourself about reality? And
the first step is recognizing that those are stories. They're
not necessarily reality. They're just your stories about who I
am or your story about reality. And shifting those stories

(55:22):
is really one of the most highest leverage things that
you can work on, because when you shift a core story,
it ripples out into a lot of different areas of
your life. So you know, you could try to address
every area you know, relationships and nutrition and exercise and
you know, work and all this stuff. But then if
you shift a core story, that ripples out into all

(55:45):
of those arenas. And so with environmental behaviors, for example,
I remember when it just started to become very hard
for me to throw away a plastic container. You know,
it is just like I just don't feel right about this.
I don't think this is the type of person I am.
I don't want to be. I don't want to be

(56:07):
participating in damaging the environment. And so now I've got
this fun field trip where I take all my empty
plastic containers and I go to a refeellable shop and
I fill them up with what I need and bring
them home. And you know, it's such a small, tiny action,
but boy, it makes me feel aligned with who I
want to be. And so that's the other thing you

(56:29):
can do is just be like, who and how do
I want to be? Whether it's an upcoming conversation that
you're having with someone, Who and how do I want
to be in this conversation or a bigger thing, Who
and how do I want to be in this life?
Who and how do I want to be in this marriage?
Who and how do I want to be as a parent?
And using language that speaks to that is a big deal.

(56:51):
Like inside of your own mind, the way you talk
about instead of saying I have a really hard time exercising,
you can say I'm paying a lot of attention to exercising.
More So, that's just a different language. You know, I'm
someone who has a really hard time exercising versus I'm
paying a lot of attention right now to exercising more.

(57:12):
It gives your brain a different message, and it's more
helpful as you move forward. It's more effective in every way.
And you know, I want to also just make sure
we say you know there are certain, as you said,
with addiction, there are some core beliefs that are so
strong that it's hard to shift them, and that sometimes

(57:33):
just takes a lot of people circling the wagons. It
takes a lot of time of reading and working hard
on it and getting help, getting physical, medical help, getting
other kinds of help. And you know that is another
story that you could shift, is someone who needs help
should feel ashamed about it. To every single one of

(57:55):
us needs help at some time in our lives, maybe
more than one time. And people who you ask for
help are typically honored by you asking. They're not shaming
or upset about it. They're honored by you asking. So
you can even try to work on shifting your story
about needing help. The last thing I would say is

(58:15):
just that concept of identity. Sometimes you start by saying
this is the type of identity I have, and I
want to have all my behaviors align with it. But
then over time, as you do these practices, your identity
begins to get bigger and bigger, and the boundaries between
your identity and everyone else start to become much more permeable.

(58:36):
So instead of am I doing the behavior that's right
for me and my purpose? You start to say, are
we all doing what we all want to be doing
to make the world the way we want it? And
that movement from I to we is a very powerful movement.

Speaker 2 (58:53):
Yeah, And I love the way Dan Schiel talks about
that of not losing me along the way, so he
talks about me instruction. It doesn't exactly roll off the tongue,
but is It honors a sense of acceptance, accepting our experience, ourselves,
and our story, but seeing stories are malleable and seeing
that we can move to this larger kind of world

(59:14):
consciousness echo consciousness, larger state of mind where we start
thinking in those terms and that can really help us
personally as well. What you think might be we've kind
of been talking about this and also want the reference
you have this idea of creating I think an ecosystem
of well being, which we've been talking a lot about.
I just want to get that out there because I

(59:35):
think you've pointed it out in many ways that we
could work on creating that ecosystem for ourselves. But if
there is one in your experience working with others and
with yourself, the one kind of limiting core belief that
seems to be most commonly detrimental to us as human beings,
and what might be our maybe the most essential evidence

(59:55):
based strategy for beginning to work with that.

Speaker 1 (59:58):
Oh gosh, there are probably a lot, but I will
use one that my colleague John Aston and I have
been working with for over twenty years, which is this
shouldn't be here, This shouldn't be happening. As we move
through our day or our lives, and we get confronted
with things, it could be as small as it's raining,

(01:00:22):
and we say, ah, this shouldn't be happening, it's too cold, Oh,
this shouldn't be here, or worse, you know, if somebody
says something or something happens, this shouldn't be happening. It's
so much more effective to say, this is happening. How
do I want to respond? You know, I want to
get an umbrella. I want to get a jacket. You know,

(01:00:45):
do I really want my dinner to be ruined by
the fact that the room is colder, or would I
rather have decide to have a wonderful time even though
the room is cold, And you know, when it gets bigger,
it's harder. You know, my child is not doing well,
or my marriage is failing, or it looks like I

(01:01:06):
might need to find a new job. Even then, though
staying in this shouldn't be happening, people can stay in
that for years. In fact, they can stay for years
and that shouldn't have happened. And that belief causes more
suffering than almost anything else. So if it can be
like that is happening, do you feel pain because of it?

(01:01:31):
How do I want? What is the next right thing
to do? Do I need to ask for help? Do
I need to take some time off to consider this?
What needs to happen next? Given that this is happening,
and you can feel even the difference in the voice,
it's a compassionate this is happening. This is what's happening.
I'm sorry, this is a tera Brock says, this is

(01:01:52):
a moment of suffering, or Kristin Neff, you know this
is hard. But something being painful and hard is different
than it being miserable and suffering, and the miserable and
suffering comes from I don't accept this. I don't want
this to be happening. I'm not gonna you know, you
can have times. Of course that's where you are, and

(01:02:13):
that's fine, that's totally normal. But if you can, in
general be like, if this is exactly as it is,
which it is because it's happening, how then would I
respond in a way that makes me feel like I'm
the type of person that I want to be.

Speaker 2 (01:02:26):
That's incredibly powerful. That is, I think one of the
real acupressure points of our self created suffering and understandably
and we need to have compassion for that tendency, but
it can be so liberating to simply find a way
to feel what we're feeling about something, but then shift
into some kind of acceptance, not saying that that's okay.
It may be, you know, quite frankly, it sucks, But

(01:02:48):
what am I going to do whether yeah, the thing
I can do to move forward, rather than saying trapped
in my resistance or my resentment about it? Yeah, yeah,
Well this has been incredibly illuminating and and I really
appreciate everything you've shared with us so much. I think
it's going to be really helpful to our audience. How
can people find out more about your work, your various

(01:03:09):
initiatives and so forth.

Speaker 1 (01:03:11):
Yeah, the easiest way is to go to Cassandraviton dot com.
So yeah, come and find me there. And thanks Fleet.
It's always wonderful to be with.

Speaker 2 (01:03:19):
You, equally so, and I really encourage people to check
out your work there Cassentraveeton dot com. And thank you
so much.

Speaker 1 (01:03:26):
All right, thank you, good good care.

Speaker 2 (01:03:29):
Thank you for joining me on the Radical Responsibility Podcast. Remember,
real change happens when we commit to our growth, face
our challenges with compassion, and stay open to transformation. If
you found this episode helpful, I encourage you to subscribe
and help us spread the message of healing and personal empowerment.
Stay grounded, stay present, and stay true to you. Take care,

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Dr. Cassandra Vieten | Healing the Mind by Coming Home to the Body

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Dr. Cassandra Vieten | Healing the Mind by Coming Home to the Body