Dr. Isaac Eliaz | Open Heart Medicine in a World of Stress

What if healing—true, deep, lasting healing—wasn't something we did to ourselves, but something we allowed through ourselves?

In this beautiful conversation, I sit down with my dear friend and colleague, Dr. Isaac Eliaz, a brilliant integrative physician and longtime meditator whose work bridges the best of Eastern and Western traditions. From his early days practicing martial arts and meditation in Korea to his profound immersion in Tibetan Buddhism under the guidance of Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche, Dr. Eliaz has walked a path few have traveled—with both scientific rigor and spiritual depth.

We explore his pioneering work in “Open Heart Medicine,” a healing approach that dissolves the walls between body, mind, and spirit. Dr. Eliaz shares how the heart—physiologically, emotionally, and spiritually—is the gateway to genuine transformation. We dive into practices like Tonglen, which he describes not just as a metaphor, but a real physiological and cellular process of exchanging suffering for compassion. You’ll hear how healing the body begins by healing the patterns we carry—from survival stress to emotional contraction. This is more than a conversation. It’s an invitation to shift from mind-centered living to heart-centered being.

We Also Discuss: 
● How east meets west in Dr. Eliaz’s approach to deep healing
● Open Heart Medicine blending physiology with compassion practice
● Why meditation is about feeling, not just watching—embodied awareness matters
● Tonglen transforming suffering by activating our innate compassion
● How healing survival patterns unlocks resilience and inner peace

[0:00:00] Welcome to The Radical Responsibility Podcast
[0:04:07] Integrating Eastern and Western healing through personal journey
[0:11:08] Uniting heart and mind in deep meditation practice
[0:23:46] Cellular healing and releasing survival patterns through presence
[0:33:21] Heartfulness as a path to emotional and spiritual transformation
[0:42:19] Healing survival scars through acceptance and Tonglen practice

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Connect with Dr. Isaac Eliaz: Website: https://dreliaz.org/

Produced by Evolved Podcasting: https://www.evolvedpodcasting.com

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
You meditate like the inner heart is the center of
the universe, because each of us from our heart point
is the center of the universe. You are, I am
anybody listening or watching, and yet we are all the
center of universe. That's the interdependent and oneness. So when
you want to feel the openness, you try not to
feel it from here, but from your inner body. And
then when you do it, you kind of watch what's

(00:22):
happening in your body. And the world watch is very
tweacky because people who come from mindfulness are going to
have a very difficult, next to impossible journey of going
to the place of effortless because meditation is not what
you experience.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
Welcome to the Radical Responsibility Podcast. I'm doctor Fleet Mall
and I'm excited the guide you on a journey of
authentic transformation, and each episode I'll bring you insights from
leading experts to explore trauma recovery, mindfulance practices, puzzle psychology,
and innovative breakthroughs in health, wellness, and life up themation.

(01:00):
This is a space for real conversations that inspire meaningful change,
helping you find alignment with the person you are always
meant to be. Let's get started. What if transformation isn't
just about thinking differently, but feeling differently. Science shows us

(01:21):
that true change happens when we align not just our minds,
but also the neural networks in our hearts and guts.
This heart mind connection is the key to deeper healing, resilience,
and expanded awareness. That's why I created the Heart Mind
all access, membership, and community, a space designed to help
you rewire your nervous system, cultivate heart intelligence, and live

(01:43):
with greater clarity and purpose. With over one thousand hours
of transformational teachings specifically curated to meet your needs. You'll
learn from world renowned meditation teachers, neuroscientists, and experts in neuroplasticity,
all sharing powerful tools to help you shift your mindset
and heartset, regulate your emotions, and unlock your full potential.

(02:09):
You'll also gain unlimited access to every summit and course
we've ever produced, a Treasure Trouble Wisdom worth over ten
thousand dollars in growing plus live gatherings, and an inspiring
global community to support your journey. If you're ready to
step into a more heart centered, connected and conscious life,
I invite you to join us. Clip the link to

(02:29):
learn more and start your journey today. What ith healing
your body started not with medicine, but with opening your heart.
In this profound conversation, I'm joined by doctor Isaac Elias,
a pioneer in integrated medicine whose journey bridges the ancient
wisdom of Eastern traditions with cutting edge Western science. We

(02:52):
explore how meditation, heartfulness, and practices like toneln aren't just
spiritual tools, they're physiological pathways to healing. Doctor Elias shares
the powerful story of how his study of Tibetan Buddhism
and his path as a physician came together in what
he calls open Heart Medicine. This episode invites you to

(03:13):
shift from survival mode into a life of deeper presence, compassion,
and resilience. Let's dive in Miami. Is doctor Flee Mall
your co host for the session and I'm thrilled to
be here today with friend and colleague doctor Isaac Elias.

Speaker 1 (03:28):
Welcome, Thank you, Thank you Fleet for having me a
love of conversations over the years.

Speaker 2 (03:33):
So, doctor Elias, I want to get into the origins
of your work a little bit. You've spent decades pioneering
integrative medicine approaches. You're deeply trained as a Western physician
and in many alternative or various healing capacities, including acupuncture
and so forth, And you're a long time Tibetan Buddhist practitioner,

(03:54):
and so I wonder if you could say something about
how your journey began. Did you begin in a medical field,
did you begin in your spiritual search with Tibetan Buddhism,
did they come together? Just how did your path kind
of begin that led to how your work is unfolding today.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
My beginning is a little bit unusual. It started at
an early age out of my own like inner interest,
not with the family necessarily. At age fourteen, and then
at age fifteen, we traveled to South Korea. My father
was an engineer, and I was introduced to tekwando, a
martial art, and I had been to study a very

(04:32):
philosophical alternative branch of tekwando, And I was introduced to
yoga and meditation at a very early age. And so
for about the age of fifteen sixteen, I was engaged
in yoga every day and in meditation, and which I
carried on. So when I went to medical school, I
knew I'm going to do something alternative. Actually the knowledge

(04:54):
wasn't there, you know, it was early eighties. But meditation
and yoga and the inner so actic awareness was always
part of my being. So I went in Israel. It's
a six year medical school. I went through it while
training in Chiatza, training in Chinese medicine and having a
pretty regimented daily meditation practice, starting with more for yoburgular

(05:16):
yogic Indian meditation, seeking meditation, and then when we came
to the US, so I can deepen my Chinese medicine
education get Master of Science in Chinese medicine. I met
my rut Lama. He became very close. I was his
doctor for many years, including being there. He left his
body in Brazil many many years later, and then Vaguyana

(05:39):
became really what I focused time wise and so aso
for many years. For twenty years, I would go to
the mountains for two three months a year, and for
ten years I did every day retreat. And then in
two thousand and eight, late two thousand and eight, I
kind of left everything and my family was supportive and
went on and attempted retreat which didn't end in three years,

(06:02):
but spent many months by myself in the Trinity Alps
and had a lot of time for reflection and out
And this was a generation where teachings were really given,
you know, you were there one on one, you know,
in small groups, especially with the Charter Turco input chair.
And out of this process came some esoteric, insightful you

(06:24):
can say, transmission, like certain practices then that I translated,
after many years of stepping in them into a very
simple term open heart medicine. But it really encompasses at
my basis, at my training from the gate God that
what my teacher told me. My training is mainly in

(06:44):
great perfection. That's really my full training no for Homo
thirty five years. And within it, tongline became a tool
of expression I developed in some in a way that
I can say is unique. It's different than regular Tomlin
and it's especially gear towards self healing, multi generational healing

(07:04):
and healing of founders. So I know.

Speaker 2 (07:06):
Chugdutuku is well known for being a teacher of child
practice and of course soul too. MALIONI has emphasized that
and she was also a student of his, and she
has her book Feeding Your demons, which is kind of
an interesting psychological perspective on that. And also, if I'm
not mistaken, Chagdotuko was also very involved in was he

(07:27):
a practitioner of Tibetan medicine or did he support practice?
He was very involved in the kind of healing aspect.

Speaker 1 (07:34):
Very interesting. He was a Tibetan doctor when he was young.
He stuffed it. He didn't do it anymore, but he
would show me some stuff from time to time. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
we were very close. I mean, we can take the
whole hour with stories of the connection with your teacher
when he's alive, and the connection with your teacher they
gets stronger when he leaves his body, and how they

(07:56):
keep on guiding you and teaching you until they feel
okay on the way, and then the opportunity to meet
his next way incarnation. But better not to talk too
much about it in public. And so yes, it was
a very unique, but it was a great auction master great,
it was amazing. It was really I feel as a
Westerner it fless to me. You know, I had no

(08:18):
idea what he was talking about, honestly, Fleet you know,
it takes so many years, you know, and for me anyway,
I will a slow learn in this sense, but I
was persistent. I mean, you know, they want to give something.
It is really hard to comprehend. And these days when
where these teachings are read online and are popular, when
you go to big retweet and you go for a
weekend and for four days or five days, it's a

(08:41):
different world. You know, there's a reason why. It's like,
is there something our adjusted zoology is built to be
able to see in a quicker way. But there was
a certain way of a dish that is cooked very slowly,
you know, but it's well cooked. You know, it's different, right,
you know it? Yeah, So this was litally a very
unique it's a very time of faith and devotion. And

(09:04):
we didn't read any books, you know, I mean some
of the true co Agail books were allowed. But it
was just about reading our notes twenty five times between
one year and the next retreat and really just living
every world and the ones that really took it seriously,
and then having is support and kind of reflecting on
it and it it is think my whole family went

(09:24):
through the process, my wife, my daughter who is an
ex auction lineage olderly Elias Lamachuni and also it became
part of our life. Our younger daughter is now a
resident in neurology, so the idea of serving others and
caring for others became part of the DNA of our

(09:45):
whole family and each of us in our own path.

Speaker 2 (09:48):
So I'd like maybe propose a little map or conversation,
and we don't have to stick to that, but I
want to talk ask you something a little more about healing.
How your initial study with Chug the talk and then
your ongoing studying Tibetan Buddhism and you're training as a
physician and a healer, how that intertwined in terms of
your understanding of the healing process from both Eastern and

(10:10):
Western perspectives. And then I want to shift and talk
a bit about the art of meditation and really talk
about kind of shamatavipasiona in a sense of stabilization practice, calummbiding, developing,
you know, training the mind to where it has that
capacity to rest, and then the process of a Poston
insights that can lead deliberation. And then we'll circle back

(10:31):
and talk about tom Linn practice and how you've integrated
that into this your heart medicine approach. But to begin with,
how did your understanding of the healing process both I
suppose you could say both physical healing, emotional healing, the
general the body's capacity to heal, of how that's facilitated
by both these Eastern and Western approaches, and how that's

(10:52):
kind of a ball for you your understanding of that.

Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yeah, that's a great question and a great myth challenging one.
And the deep influence from Chinese medicine. I study Chinese
medicine for many years, not only formally but also esoteric lineages.
So I think meditation now has been much more assimilated
in the West, is a very practical tool for the
more beginner ones, more for relaxation, for redduction of stress,

(11:19):
for being more present in this very high pace environment.
And often when we meditate and even if we feel
I mean, I'm not a great fan of the term mindfulness,
but it is very popular and it serves the big
role as the first grade meditation, and people can get relays,
can feel open, but it is often from the skin out,

(11:41):
and you can see many meditators have a lot of
meditation capacity and the health is poor. Can see it
in retreat, right, I don't know fleet. You may observe
people going retweat and they really get sick. In retreat,
they have what the Tibetan will call loom, and they
can't sleep and they don't feel well and they get
out sick. From my perspective, I want to break the
bad news. Their retweet is basically imbalanced from beginners to advance. Okay,

(12:07):
seper can say it's karma, it's this and that. No,
when your retweet is done properly, your health is going
to get better. If I had a certain nick injury
that caused high blood pressure, when I will go on
retweet within three weeks, I didn't with medication after seven
eight weeks. There was no medication for one year until
I went back. Why because I was able to kill

(12:29):
the stress responses relax the sympathetic system in a deep level,
Not because I focused on it, not at all. I
didn't think about it. Because it was the byproduct of
the meditation. So one of the first part in meditation
is to connect your meditation practice to your somatic expression,

(12:50):
to your somatic feeling. And that's the process where physiology,
cellular biology, and basic knowledge is really known. The other
part is to really differentiate between what we will call
a aes sense and expression in Buddhism, between the dama
kaya aspect and the samboga kaya aspect, which is inseparable,

(13:13):
and the great perfection between our openness resting in its emptiness,
and between the expression like the sun and its rays,
which are really inseparable. And that's what shines. And we
see this endless object, endless expressions, and if we grasp
to them, we got some sarah right, And if we

(13:34):
rest in our true nature, we got recognition of weak paw,
we got realization, we got you know, nirvana in a
more absolute term. But both come from the same place.
It is often an error that people want to separate them.
So within it the mind, the thinking process, the clarity process,
the insight process very much comes from the third eye.

(13:57):
Many practitioners, you know, they feel this. And here we
are up to a very challenging road because we are
trying to change our habit of analyzing, of stopping, of looking,
of thinking. That's an ingrained, inherent, multi generational pattern behavior.
And where does it come from. It comes from the

(14:19):
basic resping from a Buddhist perspective, from a meditation perspective,
from a physiological perspective. It is our survival response. It
is automated fleet. It's come from the sympathetic system of
the autonomic nervous system. We can't control it. It happens immediately.
So we spend years trying to learn this place of
being more open, to find the space between thoughts, and

(14:42):
then there is a sense of clarity of bliss. A
lot of unique experiences, good experiences, bad experiences, and there's
a whole discussion about getting attached to these experiences and
about modern meditation system that are based on a certain experience.
And this all folding to the realm of shamata and
the insight recognizing the impermanent quality for in the quality

(15:06):
of the passion and the beauty of this system. Is
it a simple system, There's a very defined road. You
keep on going on this road and you get benefits
from it. The Great Perfection system is a very different
system because the entry point is recognition to nature. And
if you take hardbred people that think they have it,

(15:28):
maybe one will have it. But the disadvantage is that
when you do shamata and you bring in the lodgeon
and the training of the mind and the heart, you
are working on opening your house. And that's why the
very passional shamata tok glen path and say, the passionate shamata.
Although again I come now, this is not for beginners.

(15:48):
Everything I talk comes from my training, from great perfection.
I just put it in simple words. So the more
ordinary gradual path is like building a well tilted field
singing show us that brought the tuningtic into this world
would say in his needle practice, the passion and shamata
is a well tilled field that you can then find

(16:11):
your true nature. So in this sense it's a great path,
and it's very practical for these times in the world.
Or we are so busy, or we are so inflamed,
where we are bombarded with stimulus, there is divisiveness, And
in this sense it's a very useful thing. Now when
we look at when we move from the clarity to

(16:33):
our heart, that's a different story. The heart is built
to flow, it never stops. Like one of the greatest
Buddhist masters of the late twentieth century and early twenty
first in the High Malayas, I was his doctor and
studied with him, and he would say, he told my daughter,
and I know the heart has no concept. This was

(16:54):
his heart advice to hera Ange went for a three
retweet what he says, the heart has no con So
the heart has no concept. The heart naturally flows. And
this is expressed not only from a spiritual point of view,
but and from the point of view of really the
center of our inner mind being in the heart and
the heart mind connection and all the neuroscience connection. But

(17:17):
it is also expressed in our physiology. Our physiology is
built to do tonguelin. We are wired to do tonguelin.
We're doing tongueline from a point of view of physiology,
otherwise we won't be alive. And I'll explain it later.
So then when we shift into our heart, there is
a real shift, and the real trick is to do

(17:39):
shamantas the passion our thinking process from the heart, to
think from the heart, to feel from the heart, to
talk from the heart. We move to the hout. It's
kind of insane when we start feeling it and then
our brain system exactly run by the heart. Then we're
in a different highway. We're healing. Can happen in the

(18:01):
last week in there, and I'm kind of giving you
the map road from my perspective, the last week is
that the heart can open, but with the target tissue
except the change. The Buddha can be here, the drama
teachings can be there, but will the sanger get the teachings?
You know where the sanger in our body is ourselves

(18:23):
and our main brand receptors. Are they open to receive
or they are in a fearful survival traumatic mode because
of trauma's multi generational trauma abuses in this life and toxins,
heavy metals, microtoxins, you know, radiations post treatment. It's all

(18:44):
one realm. There's no separation. So open out medicine allows
a very unique way of unwinding this process.

Speaker 2 (18:52):
Let me have backtrack froment a little bit with you,
and so you really laid out a beautiful landscape of
the journey and we'll keep on packing that. So our
approaches to meditation, to both teaching and practicing are very
beautifully aligned. And I want to process a little bit
from a Western neurophysiological approach to begin with. And you're
representing you know, Shama to depostion and the Tibetan Buddhists.

(19:14):
I mean those traditions are used across Buddhism, and in
Tibetan Buddhism, they're used more within the Mahamudra than the Zochin.
But even when you and you can be practicing shama
the depast as a Sutriano practitioner or a Mahiana practitioner
at the Vajiana level, they're Mahamudra and Zoltchin come together
at some point because they're both involved the pointing out instruction.

(19:36):
And you've had that glimpse of the nature of mine.
So getting back to, you know, the basics of meditation,
which are there's some commonality across traditions, I think unfortunately
working with the body. As you mentioned earlier, people practice
mindfulnces mostly from the outwards, right about being more present,
about being more aware and so forth, and paying attention,
which is all wonderful, but you know, we live in

(19:58):
a very disembodied color. I have a friend who says
that in Western culture, our body has been relegated to
a role none other than just being a brain taxi,
something to carry around this super trip on our shoulders.
But one of the efficacies for me about really bringing
the body into the practice, and we're talking about the
physical body the gross physical sensate body. To begin with,

(20:20):
we experience touch on the surface of the skin, but
then very importantly going into the body with introceptive awareness
the vast internal somatic landscape of the body. When we
focus there, we know from current neuroscience it's as facilitating
a ship from the busy default mode network to the
task positive network, and our mind will naturally begin to
quiet down. We don't have to struggle with thinking, we

(20:42):
don't demonize thinking, we can just leave it alone. But
the mind will naturally start to quiet down because we're
sort of yoking our attention deep in the deeply felt
experience of the body. Now, of course, as we go
into the body, we're going for more what we think
of as gross physical sensation, whatever it is, because even
when you close your eyes, sensation is more like energy,

(21:02):
but it goes subtler and subtler and subtler. And of
course we experience emotion in the body. So the heart
we can reference is the physical heart, the heart center,
the heart mind in the Eastern traditions, but it's also
the emotional body white we reference the heart in terms
of our emotional body. So as we go deeper into
the body, we're also getting in touch with the emotional body,

(21:23):
and then we get into subtle body and subtle mind
and into the very nature of mind and nature reality
through the body. And the good thing about the body
is that it's very anchoring, so it's facilitating that attention
stabilization in a natural way. And we can move from
having to do more effortful intentional practice to effortless practice

(21:44):
because we're building the neural architecture for the practice. So
that's the final point I want to ask you about.
It seems to me that deep practice requires and both
in terms of accessing the deep states of awareness and
the possibilities of liberation, also the healing you're talking about
that the healing requires that we build a kind of

(22:06):
internal neurophysiological architecture and the subtler, the subtle body forms
of that that becomes the vehicle for effortless awareness, effortless
practice to be able to really relax into the deep
states of flow, where even from a Western perspective, if
we think of a little bit of quantum theory, the

(22:28):
deeper we go into the source, right, even from a
Western perspective, which is still materialistic, but even they get
into a source that's pretty non material. The deeper we
drop into that, there's a natural healing. It's sort of
like the way you used to have to defragment the
old computers.

Speaker 1 (22:45):
Right.

Speaker 2 (22:45):
If we plug ourselves back into source, all the tagled
up wires and circuits and all this stuff in the
body of the trauma, all the toxins, it all begins
to heal itself out because we're plugging back into that
deep source. So I wonder from that perspective, if you
could talk about getting the importance of the body and
building training our body mind as a vehicle for realization,

(23:08):
as a vehicle for deep healing, as a vehicle for
where we can finally relax into really realize in the
nature of mind because we're not clinging, we're not grasping,
we're not fabricating. Requires profound relaxation, and that means we
need to be able to practice in Annapolis way, and
it seems that we have to build a structure for that.
So I'm wondering if that's resonating for you and what

(23:29):
your take on that would be.

Speaker 1 (23:31):
Wow, that's truly an amazing description, just for really for people.
It's worth while listening to it again because there is
so much that you picked there, and I'm kind of thinking,
where do I start looking at my journey? My own
journey is different than how I teach, you know, So
first of all, you've got to be aware of your body.
So for me, I'm a tiktall guy. I especially in
pult diagnosis. I know, I learned Chiazzo, I learned Clinger secret.

(23:54):
I put my hands on people, you know, and we're
saying gooddhism by seeing, hearing, touching, or remembering me my
benefit all beings. So yah, that's fundamental. So the innerspection
we kind of know. Often you can see in the
little bit traditional the passion I did, people kind of
look at the inner sensation that's coming from the outside
to the inside, and he often create this artificial boundary

(24:17):
becomes between the inside and outside. One of the first
things that happens when you become a more of a
bodified great perfection a practitioner is that the sense of
the body and the outside folds the way. There is
no more sense of boundary. So from this sense and
switching when he told go impathy, he told him you
meditate like the inner heart is the center of the

(24:41):
universe because each of us from our heart point is
the center of the universe. You are, I am anybody
listening or watchie, and yet we are all the center
of universe. That's the interdependent and oneness. So when you
want to feel the openness, you try not to feel
it from here but from your inner body, and then
when you do it, you kind of watch what's happening

(25:03):
in your body. And the world watch is very tricky
because people who come from mindfulness are going to have
a very difficult, next to impossible journey of going to
the place of effortlessness. Because meditation is not what you experience.
It's really important, and I hear people think feel a
sense of please feel the sense of that. No, meditation

(25:26):
is our relationship with what we experience. That's the level
of meditation. Is it effortful? Are we aunted? Doting? Are
we watching? Oh? This is impairment? Is it? Or are
we transforming? Are we accepting that's easy, but that's profound?
And are we finding freedom within the experience? That's the

(25:47):
secret to godhood. So within this we have to understand this,
and once we understand it, we have to understand that,
at least to my view, is every selling our body
fleet is a universe, is a person is an entity.
It has a boundary as a membry. It is affected
by outside input, you know, just like we react toward

(26:08):
count our five senses right, and we react our feeling
the motion psychology, body sensation right or the classical right
elements that are practice. Cell does the same. Something comes
from the outside that he feels safe with. The cell
will relax, It will have normal physiology, normal cellar biology.

(26:29):
Glucose will be metabolised in an efficient way. There will
be no stress response into a cellularly and something called
AHTM to one hif hypoxia inducing factor, the sense that
we are choking, Oh my god, I can't breathe. Right,
we can be the greatest meditators. If we hold our
breaths at a certain point, it will make us tight.

(26:52):
It's totally downregulated and we're in a place of safety.
If we get different messages from the outside, you to
try Rama's body physiology. Messages are psychological. It will affect
our membrane receptors. A lot of my work all the
way to sepsis that my inner age grants and then
it will affect our mitochondrial functions. But our DNA, our epigenetics,

(27:17):
our inner feelings within the cell will also produce a
cellar sect and that's how the inner and out of
ances a being is reflected in each of our fifty
trillion cells. So the healing is can we bring the
message from the meditation from our heart through our blood

(27:39):
into our cells. And if you have a trauma in
a certain part of the body, or this body holds
an emotional, psychological, immediate, multi generational trauma or certain toxin,
this area doesn't want to open up, right. You know
this so well, so what do we do it?

Speaker 2 (27:58):
Is?

Speaker 1 (27:58):
How do we work it? Do work on it? Direct?
We focus on area that I'm more letting go and
slowly to well affected. These are all practical regiment but
the first step is to understand that what starts this
on a cellular level is the reactivity of our survival response.
That from a meditation point of view, the basic grasping

(28:22):
and what is grasping. Grasping is not letting go of
something you supposed to be let go of. It's really
not letting something that is supposed to die. It's holding
to something and that's what survival is. So grasping is
a mechanism of survival. The root of grasping is that

(28:42):
we don't recognize our true nature and we identify with
what we see outwardly, right, we hear about I'm sure
a lot of the guests talk about it, and inwardly
this happens all the way to the cellular level.

Speaker 2 (28:55):
Just to make a point here, I think, because I
think this is so important. Practitioners can and you know,
really work with various meditation techniques and especially from the
more ourward mindfulance approach, but really with a lot of
type things. But if they're not practicing in an embodied
way and don't have this understanding that you're expressing right now,
it's like building this house of mindfuluence awareness on top

(29:18):
of a foundation that's still completely wrapped up in survival.
And even at the cellular level of the mitochondria, the
organelles within each cell there is basically we're biologically set
up for survival, or we wouldn't be here as a species. Right,
So at that basic level, the notion is one of
constant danger, so surviving, not being consumed, needing to consume

(29:40):
to survive, so eating, and then wanting to procreate to
extend ourselves, you know, into the future. Right, So that's
happening at the cellar level, way below our level of awareness.
Then we have the nervous system that's also you know,
got all this survival programming into it that we can
be aware of and begin to self regulate.

Speaker 1 (29:58):
But if we.

Speaker 2 (29:58):
Don't drop into deep into the body to bring the
flow states or whatever you want, the heart openness, the coherence,
the flow states deep in at the cellular level, then
it's like we're building this mindfulness awareness house on top
of fear based structure and will never really be able

(30:19):
to let go into the deeper stage. There's always going
to be this grasping, clinging, fabrication, aversion and so forth.

Speaker 1 (30:27):
Yeah, it's so so true, and yeah, this whole relationship
is happening. So the idea is to connect into a
cellularly all the way to the ceiling for me, you know,
and for you in the same way. And I will
see time. I spend a lot of time half of
the year this year, at least in Hawaiian I see
it and watch the sunset. It's the big ground where
I see it, and you get this amazing sensation and

(30:49):
you know, and it's you're just twisting, and you know
you I just say, wow, why did it have to
take fifty years? You know, you know there is an
ongoing magical and winding, but it all starts with shifting
from reactivity that is our survival, to a different state.
And the state this is shifting from ordinary physiology to

(31:12):
allowing the heart, our emperor, to lead the way. And
we talk about a lot about loving kindness, and we
talk about a lot about compassion, But the secret of
the heart is not loving kindness and compassion that's the outcome.
The secret of the heart is non discriminative, boundless, innate acceptance.

(31:35):
Every cell wants to take clean blood and pushes out
what it doesn't want and what the cell defines the toxins.
Sometimes it's only electrolyte balance. And we say every cell
fleet and for the audience, up to one million reactions
a second in every cell. Can you imagine fifty trillion cells,
all of them doing it together, talking about a whirlpool.

(31:58):
The heart is different. The accepts blood from everywhere. It
doesn't say no, It moves some reactivity to responsiveness. It
accepts instead of fighting. It connects with the bigger heart,
with the universal out through the breath. That's what happens.
So in this sense, the acceptance, the taking in of suffering,

(32:20):
there's a tongue lin process.

Speaker 2 (32:22):
I want you to go further with the ton linen
just a moment, but if you could connect for us,
and you're understanding of both Western traditions, Chinese medicine and
your Tibetan practice traditions. So we have the physical heart
and you're as you're saying, the heart accepts all the
blood and it will take in. It doesn't discriminate. Right,
that's at a physical level. We now know that there

(32:43):
are neural networks in the heart, and so the idea
of the heart mind is not merely a spiritual idea.
And then, of course, in Eastern traditions, when we talk
about bodies, speech and mind is here. Brain is body,
the heart is here. So the idea of the heart
mind Chita and sanskirt or shin and Japanese is here.
So what's the connection between the physical heart, our understanding

(33:06):
that heart does have neural networks and then the more
spiritual or deeper notion of heart in the Eastern traditions,
how does all that connect up? And then maybe from
there you could go onto talking about your approach to
inner Tomland and your heart medicine approach.

Speaker 1 (33:20):
Yeah. Right, So basically, we are wired up here to
have a nervous system that can send signals and protect us.
We are wired here to accept everything and give selflessly.
We are wired physiologically. I want people to understand this.
You can be the biggest jerk and a criminal and

(33:42):
the killer, okay, But physiologically is the moment we stop
losing this basic ability sixty seconds, ninety seconds, one hundred
and twenty seconds we leave this world, okay, Which means
that we are built to do the transformerive process. It's
built in us. That's why, as we all know, people

(34:04):
want to practice charm at passion are definitely great perfection.
It's the years of process. You learn it in the morning,
you know it in the afternoon. You can show it
to somebody else the next day. Why we are wired
to do this physiology. People will live to realize this
is like a wow moment. When this came to me
as an insight, I would likely sitting right at this
place about five six years ago, and then you know

(34:26):
it was a certain medicine buddher vision. They then gave
me this knowledge about inner and secret tonguling, which are
completely different, and usually I teach them only in a retreat.
I don't talk about them, but I will give some
hints about it, and only in advanced retreat, not in
their basic one. So going back to the heart and
to your question, the heart connect with the universe. We

(34:47):
let go of our drama carbon dioxide, and the universe,
which is endless compassion, inseparable from basic space, accepts it.
Now when we really pollute our universe, that's a problem, right,
there are too many cloud we don't see the sun.
And then the lung serves to make this transformative, magical

(35:08):
exchange in the same time we let go of carbon
dioxide while we take oxygeny. And what does the heart do.
The heart gives with our discrimination. So the non discrimination
given of the heart, the auta is a rigid artery
goes everywhere, not saying I'm going to give only to
the liver, only to the lung, only to the brain.

(35:29):
But once it goes to the body, we have contraction
and relaxation of ourterials capillaries. Then there is a give
and take, the grasping and letting go between organs. That's
a maintenance physiology. That's a non spiritual maintenance physiology in
the body that allows us to go through evolutionary transformation

(35:51):
which we are built. And only once the heart gives
blood everywhere, it relaxes and the coronary artery gets nourished.
So the heart is the only organ in the body
that navishes itself once it finishes its work absolute selflessness.
But the first place that the heart narvishis anatomically is

(36:12):
it navishes itself. And that's the importance of self love
compared to loving others. And we see it in traditional
tongue lene. When you start training, you train in working
on injured aspects of yourself. Right, that's exactly what we do.
The trick is that in Tonguelin we take the suffering
from outside and we send it outside. So the first

(36:34):
theme for regular tongueling, what I call outer Tonguelin, is
that when we do it, you want to connect with
this inner secret hout, which is traditionally at the level
of the spine. In front of the spine, it's deeper,
it's more in the back. And certain visualization in Vadoyana
will have three visualizations like you know, white, red, blue,

(36:57):
and then it will leave this secret out with its
own rainbow the organization. So when we connect from there,
then now the tongue line is going through all of
our cells and it's creating the healing on a deeper
level when we really think about it, and it's a
hint for the inner tongue line. Every person, every suffering
that we can bring in our mind that is affected

(37:19):
as is stored in our cells, is stored in our body.
It has already affected us. There's no air around it.
So the inner tongue lin creates a tonguelin process inwardly.
Now that's a very powerful process because you're opening all
your drawers and all the stuff, all the messy stuff

(37:41):
just gets thrown out. That's why usually I like to
do it after people have been with me, even for
four or five days on retreat, they are ready for it.
And it's combined with exercise, with breathing, with yoga, with chigon,
with cleansing, diet, with hands on healing, you know, in
ideally personal so I can monitor the process. And then

(38:03):
the secret absolute tongue glean is when the altine email
are tweeted is one so it's a very different scale
to Glean no comparison.

Speaker 2 (38:11):
What I hear you saying is that in the way
that the blood, you know, we receive the carbon dioxide,
you know, the exchange happens at the oldie and a lung.
So where they were taking, we're cleansing the blood recharging
it with oxygen. Right, So that this process of sort
of cleaning and accepting everything, accepting all the toxins and
then refreshing, cleaning the blood with oxygen, with the purity.

(38:35):
This is not just the good analogy for Tonglind, but
it is on a continuum with what's happening at a
subtle level. I mean, another analogy that I think is
more of a pure analogy that I've always had with
ton Lend is one can think of what realize beings
are really doing. The resistance of a Buddha, a Buddha realm,
a Buddha field is like this cosmic air conditioners, continually

(38:57):
taking taking in all the toxins, take and then extending
back out to the universe goodness and purity and basic
goodness and so forth. So, but what you're saying is
the physical heart process of cleaning the blood and purifying
the blood and repressing the blood with pure oxygen. It's
not merely an analogy, but it actually is on a
continuum with the actual spiritual and healing process of Tanlin.

(39:20):
Is that accurate?

Speaker 1 (39:20):
Oblieving the universal airth condition or purify is totally true.
You know, we're saying Buddhism in the very esoteric teachings
that suffering arises as an object of compassion for the Buddhas.
So yeah, this is a beautiful thing, absolutely, And visualizing
somebody outside creates a separation. It's outside. So even if

(39:43):
you do it and you're connecting soumatically to the house
and this is something I will do in the short
introduction to experience, suddenly you feel the physiology happening. But
you have to realize a little bit easier to do
it to somebody outside than to think it in insight,
to really bring it into your body, then you kind

(40:03):
of own it. Right, it's happening. But yes, this is
our gift. Connecting with our heart is our gifts. So
really the basic shift is from mindfulness to heartfulness. Now
that's not just words, it's from effort and stopping and
trying to just resting in the flow, because the ultimate

(40:23):
nature is that it's ever flowing. It's beginningless and it's endless.
The moment you hold to it, you turn water into
ice and the moment the heart stops flowing, that's what happens.
And the physiological aspect of it is bringing oxygen to
the cell. Allow us to take a deep breath and
just to relax. We're okay, no need for effort, no

(40:45):
need for anything to happen. So even when we talk
like this, we can usually in meditation we can feel
it outside, but for people listening, just feel it in
your body. And then when we feel it in the body,
you can first feel it like you mentioned in a
growth way, and then feel it very subtly. It's remarkable.
It's just amazing. You literally get endless sensations and then

(41:07):
see how you react to this sensation. You try to
analyze them, you try to push them. Can you just
accept them? Or the total resting happens when they're That's
why the ultimate tongue glen is resting in your true nature.
Because when we rest authentically true nature and we can
see it, we can be tense, we can be worried,

(41:28):
and then when we rest in this place. Authentic expression
of this meditation on the body realm on the Newma
Nakaya Welm on the tuk joelm is loving kindness and compassion.
That's the expression of the state. It's amazing. You don't
have to try it, you don't have to fake it.
It's what happens.

Speaker 2 (41:49):
Continuing with your approach to the timeline and healing. I
know you use the term I believe scarves of survival
or survival scars, and you're talking to me or we
have the deep conditioning of biological survival, conditioning all the
way at the cellar level as well as in our
autonomic nervous system, and then there's all the traumas of
life and so forth. So in this healing process that

(42:12):
you're describing with tone lane practice, how is that process
then healing these scars of survival.

Speaker 1 (42:19):
So the scald of surava can be physical scouts injected
with like procaine in the body and brain forgets the
scout and the skin physically goes the way. And these
are multi generational scouts. So by accepting them, So when
we accept, accepting is required for forgiveness. When we accept,
we can let go. We can forget. So when we

(42:41):
accept when we're doing the tongue lean and there's something
that we are doing it for others. If you do
it for your own healing, then you are backing your
own egocentric point where you realize this. Then the reactivities
that causes the inflammatory response that brings survival on a
mind level, emotional level, physical father way. So tongulin makes

(43:02):
it very effective. But the more we are trained, we
are trained to do it in an effortless way, ideally
eventually in a non dual way, in a oneleess way,
the more effectivity is the quicker it happened. So it's
a combination of this and within it, then we use
different modifications. We work with the specific emotions, specific cards

(43:25):
in the body, we change based on the seasons of
the years. And also having a group set up really
empowers the process. So yes, but this is really and
eventually you will see this cause that's going away. And
I mean you end a good period of retreat even
a short with it, and you look different, you feel different,
you radiate differently. That's this amazing magical healing of meditation

(43:51):
that is often bypassed. You know, it's insane it's so
often bypassed.

Speaker 2 (43:56):
Thank you so much, doctor Isaaca Laves. How do we
find out? How does the audience find out more about
your work and your retreats and so on.

Speaker 1 (44:03):
And so they can go to dear Elias dot com. Yeah,
Eli is it dot com. I'm now going to offer
an ongoing free daily recorded meditation that will go in
a loop twice a day, so different people in different
parts of the world can log in, so people can
go to kind of get a sense and join and
create a group energy. There's always healing in my meditation,

(44:25):
so it's very good. And then I'd offer often some
one day free doom medication and healing retreats, and then
I do a deep in person retreat in Hawaii. The
next one is in September twenty twenty five on the
Big Island in the firm Word Orchid in Monalani, And
that's a very profound experience. That's the place. The picture

(44:46):
behind you is where we meditate every evening and every morning.

Speaker 2 (44:49):
That's the lava rock back there behind your right in
the ocean. Yeah, in the ocean beautiful. Yeah, thank you
so much, doctor. Thank you for very flies, Thank.

Speaker 1 (44:58):
You very all. Mud look I really really rateless.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
Keep your agreed to work. Thank you for joining me
on the Radical Responsibility Podcast. Remember, real change happens when
we commit to our growth, face our challenges with compassion,
and stay open to transformation. If you found this episode helpful,
I encourage you to subscribe and help us spread the
message of healing and personal empowerment. Stay grounded, stay present,

(45:21):
and stay true to you. Take care