May 19, 2025 • 38 mins
The three Brothers are joined by Jonathan and Miles - John and Greg’s sons and Rich’s nephews. They engage in a 2-part conversation that starts with the Shedur Sanders draft fiasco, but goes far beyond that, with Jon and Miles bringing the younger generation’s perspective to this and other issues around race, the media and opportunity. This part 1 of 2 is brought to you by www.holvertravel.com.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
So like to welcome you while to a special episode
of Ron Refined. Today, we've got Miles and Jonathan with
its Miles and Jonathan. They are Greg and John's sons,
my nephews, brilliant young cats that are out in the world,
(00:22):
and wanted to have them come in and bring their
generations perspective. This conversation is born out of their generation's
exploits right now. Specifically, what brought about today's conversation that
we're calling beyond the draft generational reflections on media, race
and opportunity. So what brought us about was the recent
(00:48):
NFL draft controversy with involving Shrador Sanders, a Heisman Trophy
finalist who was not selected in the first round or
the second round.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
What was he? When was he? What was he in the.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Third round, fifth round.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Fifth round, fifth round by Cleveland?
Speaker 1 (01:06):
You know, it just sounds ridiculous to even say that,
you know, so the media tried to you know, there
were some allegations that he was being portrayed as cocky
or arrogant. There are anonymous mugs out there saying stuff,
you know, who didn't have the courage to put their
name on it. You know, over in Corners. I have
(01:28):
heard that he's that kind of mess, so you know,
there was that part of it. So this is this
is kind of the entry point for us for this
broader discussion on media race and what we'll call opportunity.
And so we want to dive right into that, and
we brought Miles and Jonathan in with us because we
(01:49):
wanted to get that generational perspective on opportunity and perception.
We've been at this for a while, Greg, John and
I at this meaning life. We're all with fifty six
fifty five years into this thing. You know, we've seen
double standards up close, We've seen stereotypes. We've got our
(02:11):
own perspectives on this that may be somewhat aligned in
some respects.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
We differ quite a bit.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
And actually Greg and I were different quite a bit
on this topic of Shador Sanders earlier this week.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
So you know we're gonna we're gonna talk about.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
This today, hit up Miles and Jonathan for their perspectives. So,
but first I'm gonna go a little off script and
ask Miles and Jonathan to share with us with our
listeners whatever they want to share about themselves to start
this off.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
So Jonathan jump on in, tell us something about yourself.
Speaker 4 (02:49):
But day, I guess I mean you put me on
the spot.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
I mean in what way, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Whatever you want, whatever you want the people to know.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Audience is made up of cats for the most part,
that are just like us, you know, middle aged, middle
aged black man. You know, it's our target audience. So
most of the cats are going to be like us.
So didn't mean to put you on the spot, just saying,
you know what you want the people to know about you,
you know, other than that you're John's son, Okay, that
could be enough. That might be not enough, you know, because.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
I mean, all right, so other than the fact that
I'm John saying, I mean, I'm just a young, thriving fellow,
you know what I mean. I'm very intellectual. I mean,
I love sports, I love rap music, hip hop music,
R and B music. I mean, I feel like I'm
pretty easy going. I'm easy to get along with. So
I'm pretty like I pretty much can see everybody's perspective.
So I pretty much I have a good idea of
(03:44):
what's going on with things, or at least I like
to think so. So I mean, I ain't too much
to say. I just I'm just a pretty laid bad person.
Nothing too much.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
He's laid back and he likes to have a conversation
as well too, So I'm excited about this.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Cool my man, Miles.
Speaker 5 (04:06):
Yeah, Miles Kelly, son of Greg is what has been
stated a couple of times.
Speaker 6 (04:12):
I'm from Chicago.
Speaker 5 (04:12):
I live out in La Now. Chill dude, like John said,
I went to morehouse. Yeah, man, I love sports as well.
I love, you know, really the business of sports too,
a little bit more than an actual product on the
field or on court.
Speaker 6 (04:29):
I love that as well.
Speaker 5 (04:29):
I love watching them, but I'm really interested like the
physics behind it in media. So it's a it's a
good topic for me to be honest, kind of in
my wheelhouse, talk a little bit about it. Love all
different types of music, you know. I like to have
a good time, like to go out, you know, party
a little bit. But was at a conference yesterday where
we did a lot of that, so uh, excuse my
(04:50):
voice was a little horse but uh, you know, you know,
just love to have a good time, you know, I
love you know, avenues like this. I think, you know
these kinds of conversations is that can go in all
these different places.
Speaker 6 (05:02):
They don't have enough. I don't think we talk enough about.
Speaker 5 (05:05):
Crazy topics and kind of bounce ideas off each other
as men in general.
Speaker 6 (05:09):
So I'm looking forward to it and let's do it.
Speaker 7 (05:15):
Excellent, excellent, excellent.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
So supposed to start off with like a brief overview
of Shadua Sander's performance and credentials.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Hold up, now, hold up, now, hold up, brother, We
got to do our toast, now, Yeah, that's.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
What we do for Yeah. My bad, my bad, my bad,
My man. You're right, you're right, Jump on off, John, all.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Right, brother, So we always like to start it off
with the toast, you know, just to acknowledge each other
that's in the room as well. Typically we have a
specific drink that we might bring to the podcast. However,
this being our first with these young men involved, we
did not have a specific drink that we brought on.
(05:58):
So we just decided to just bring on what you
felt it was for you at this time and and
for me, I just have some great refreshing ice cold
centric fused water.
Speaker 7 (06:19):
I was under this outstanding. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
He made it sound like you know, he was, you know,
something something from.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
The deepest corner of the planet.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
That's that's right.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
So what you got?
Speaker 7 (06:38):
What you got?
Speaker 2 (06:38):
GK what you got over there? For me?
Speaker 8 (06:40):
So I don't drink coffee a lot, but when I do,
I have Phill's Coffee. So Phil's is this sort of
San Francisco based outfit. We have one here not too
far from me in Hyde Park, and they have this
thing called Filtered Soul, and.
Speaker 7 (06:57):
It's it's really really good.
Speaker 8 (06:58):
So that's what I'm having and what's left from my
Filtered Soul purchased a.
Speaker 7 (07:03):
Little while ago.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
So like s o U L like you know, or
so like the sole of your shoe, oh u L.
Speaker 7 (07:12):
I'll standing outstanding.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
What you got over there?
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Rick?
Speaker 7 (07:17):
Tell us about your beverage today.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
I'm doing my my my standards.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
You know what I call my homemade gatorade, which you know, water,
lemon juice, a little salt, and a little Stevia extracted
in there. So it's it's just you know, it's my
my I drink about about eighty ounces of that a day,
you know, then just regular water than that.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
So that's what like I do basically a few yetdias
of this today.
Speaker 7 (07:45):
All right, good deal, Jonathan.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
What you got going on over there.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
I mean, well, so what I was told was that
y'all had drinks.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
So so.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
The trooper that I am, I made me a drink.
So I mean, I just I just got a little.
It's a little mango whiskey sour.
Speaker 6 (08:10):
Okay, that's our a.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
You know, there ain't nothing wrong with it.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
And and as as Rick had mentioned before we started,
you know, if things get get really comfortable up in here,
we might we might add a little to this.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
We'll see how that goes.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
I can't I can't leave my nephew out here, so
I'm about I'm gonna have to go ahead, and poor man.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
You're gonna get to us now.
Speaker 6 (08:44):
So yeah, no, I had no I had no idea
about it.
Speaker 5 (08:48):
I would have did the thing and I would have
got some love, miss missing that I am not in
my normal residence. I'm my mother's house and she has
a awberry barkling walk.
Speaker 7 (09:04):
So okay, all right, if we do get a.
Speaker 6 (09:08):
Drink, I'll try and see what she got. But now
I got.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Okay, well, nephew, I've got you back. I can't have
you out here by yourself, so we don't appreciated and
poured me up a little. I got this Bard's Town
right here, Origin Origin series. It's really nice. Yeah, nice birthday.
So I'm I'm rolling with you.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
And because of your backstory here you o man and
your uncle over there called me out doing one of
our previous episodes because we were what were we doing.
We were doing like we were doing champagne right or
something right sort. So I had my prosecco in my yetie,
(09:58):
so so the right they like about that.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
So I'm gonna have to switch off my background for
just a second year.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
I was gonna show you now. Of course when I
say that, Dan wants to act Jackie. So I don't
know if you can see my glass, but this is
a very nice crystal with the words Central Intelligence Agency
across these.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
These were a gift.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
There.
Speaker 7 (10:31):
You go much better, you know.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
I'm gonna start off with just to give you a
little something about s George Sanders, right, you know, if
we go back to twenty twenty two twenty season when
he was at Jackson State, thirteen games, seventy percent completion percentage,
thirty seven hundred passing yards, forty touchdown, six interceptions, swacked
Offensive Player of the Year Deacon Jones Trophy as a
(10:56):
top HBCU player twenty twenty three season and Colorado eleven games,
completion percentage sixty nine percent, passing yards thirty two hundred touchdowns,
twenty seven, three interceptions, passer rating one point fifty one
point seven for a Russian touchdown. He set the Colorado
(11:19):
single game record five hundred passing yards twenty twenty four, again,
thirty seven touchdowns, ten interceptions, so not as good one
hundred and sixty eight point two passer rating, completion percentage
seventy four percent. You know, Heisman Trophy finalists, all of
(11:41):
a sudden fifth round. Some of the criticisms that he
faced was that he was cocky, he was too arrogant.
Some of the other criticisms were related to the combine
and his performance or lack of performance in certain areas.
Decisions around whether or not he decided to interview with
(12:03):
certain people came out, you know, and there was this
other whole backstory of his father.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
And you know, his input, his advice or.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
You know, decisions that were made that his father may
have contributed to, and how all of this went down.
But the bottom line was he wasn't a fifth round pick.
He was one of the folkets that was up there
in that Heismian photo right, and somehow he went in
the fifth round, and I think I called BS. But
(12:42):
now the hand of Mic over the grid.
Speaker 8 (12:45):
So this is one of the things Rich and I
had some disagreement about. And the funny part is the
disagreement was he thought he should be a first rounder.
I was not convinced that he should be a first rounder.
In fact, I argued that he'd be lucky to be
a second rounder. And it isn't simply because of the
raw numbers. I think his numbers speak for themselves. I
(13:09):
think as a Big twelve quarterback, he had a pretty
good year, you know, given the competition, and you know,
his assessment of his ability based upon his competition, you know,
being a big ten guy kind of look a little
sideways at the Big twelve these days, given like real
(13:30):
dissolution and the quality of play in that league.
Speaker 7 (13:34):
But having said that he should not.
Speaker 8 (13:36):
Have been a fifth round fifth round seemed to be
a bit ridiculous. But you know, he's a reflection, though,
of some historical trends that we've seen over the years
about black athletes and black males in particular. And despite
the fact that you might have the numbers, and you
might be competitive and you're a little confident you somehow
(13:58):
get bypassed. It's there a number of historical examples. You
can go back to boxing, right, we can go back
to Jack Johnson and the perception that he was just
he was just so arrogant even while he was beating
everybody up. It was what he was doing, of course
off the mac that really got his attention, including being
(14:19):
with white women. But there's also this example of people
like you know, Johnny you know Manzell, who you know,
got drafted. You know it had some really you know,
crazy numbers, but he still got drafted fairly early on.
And so there's this question with Shadoor, you know, whether
(14:39):
or not he was treated different differently because of his arrogance.
And there are you know, white kind of parts like
you know, Johnny Football even had a name for him, right,
Johnny Football and our other guy, Baker Mayfield. You know,
so many examples of really fairly arrogant white quarterbacks who
(15:00):
are not just Heisman Trophy winners, but also got drafted
fairly on early on in the draft, but were celebrated
for being sort of edgy and cocky and all of
that stuff. So the argument against Shadeur is that his
cockiness worked against him, and so, you know, I think
(15:21):
there's a lot of basis for that, but I'm sure
we'll get a lot of justification for that. But we'll
get more into that in the future part of this conversation.
But it's clear that arrogance cockiness hasn't stopped other quarterbacks
and other athletes and sports from getting this shy. But
in this case and in the case of other black athletes,
(15:42):
there seems to be a double standard when it comes
to just pure confidence.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
And we'll talk a little more too, but this, you know,
also let's the stress that this doesn't take away from
cam Ward, you know, being selected as the first you
know pick of the draft, being a quarterback himself as well.
You know, his stats and stuff speak well to what
he was able to achieve during his.
Speaker 7 (16:05):
Year as well.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
But it did highlight some things as well, given that
there was conversation about his presence versus how Shadur presented himself,
and you know, why does that factor in as relates
to your ability? And I think that's where we'll talk
more about it, and definitely stress on the conversation as
(16:29):
it relates to to confidence versus arrogance. I think that's
part of the perception that's out there as well. Can
a black man be confident and not be arrogant? And
this is something I'm sure we'll touch on, you know,
during the conversation today as well.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (16:46):
Yeah, actually think that's that's why I argued that Shaduur
wasn't passed over in the first round or second round
for that matter, because of his confidence. I'm like, have
you have you seen Cam like me exactly exactly in confidence?
Speaker 7 (17:06):
Right? He was the first in the draft. So anyway,
that's a whole longer part of the combo.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Yeah, you know, you know, I'm trying to be cool.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
I'm trying not to just you know, it's all crap,
as far as I'm sorry it was, it's you know,
you know, we can talk about some of this other
stuff and I think that there are levels of it,
but you know, it's just some crap. But but but Jonathan,
you know, I want to know how you how you
feel about this, and then I'm going to ask you
(17:36):
the question of you know, have you ever personally felt
like you had to overperform or be perfect to be
taken seriously in school or at work. You know this,
Did you ever feel this double standard?
Speaker 4 (17:49):
I mean so for the first part, I mean my
feelings on your door, going fifth round, I do feel
like it was a little dragged out or exaggerated in
a sense. He definitely shouldn't have went in the fifth
for sure. I definitely think he was a third or
fourth though I don't think he was a first or
second by any means, especially with him going to the
(18:13):
Colorado and then just me personally, the Big twelve is
just not that competitive compared to the SEC or ACC
and like where the other respective quarterbacks may have may.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Have came out of.
Speaker 4 (18:25):
So I feel like, honestly, the fifth round really wasn't
a bad pick honestly for where he went and what
he gave in his college career. I mean, I mean
he went to Jackson State and they only played with
two seasons. That Colorado in the first season technically wasn't
the greatest, you know what I mean. So it's just
I really do think it was realistic.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
I really don't.
Speaker 7 (18:45):
I do think it was.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
I feel like it was kind of played out because
of who he is, because of the cloud that he's
that he's brought around his name, you know what I mean,
And that's and more power to him, you know what
I mean. I love you know what I mean, I
love the rode and everything, but I do think stuff
is still realistic in it. In NFL, you got you
got people who are putting in more work. Quarterbacks who
went to harder schools, you know what I mean, who
(19:07):
put in work from being maybe a third which you
would say like a third not third pick whatever, but
like a third, third string quarterback or whatever, and he
worked up to first string quarterback, got it kind of
on the silver platter, you know what I mean. It's
just kind of like I can, I can. I can
understand it. I can understand where people you know what
I mean, I can see both sides, you know what
I mean. I feel like he definitely is a great
(19:28):
football player. But I do think respectfully that the fifth
round was was. I see nothing wrong with it. I mean,
I Stiel like he's getting his chance to shine.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
At the end of the day, it's not like he
didn't he didn't get drafted. Now if he if he
went undrafted, now that's a different story. Now now we're
now we are looking at you know what I mean?
All right, now, some something going on, But but I
feel like fifth round with looking at everything, and then
at the end of the day, a lot of teams
don't need quarterbacks. If we're really gonna be real, like,
if we're really gonna look at you know what I mean,
who needs a quarterback? A lot of teams are honestly
(19:59):
situated and they have already been building their teams. And
so I mean, honestly, a quarterback in the first second
round wouldn't be the wouldn't be the smartest pick.
Speaker 7 (20:06):
But you think Miles.
Speaker 5 (20:08):
Derrick Sanders man, it's uh, he's it is a fascinating
He's just such a fascinating character to me. His whole
family is just a fascinating kind of take on like
media and fame and popularity and all that stuff. But
to the broader point of how do I feel about
shit going in the fifth round? It definitely is BS
(20:28):
for sure, you know it's should shoul Shade.
Speaker 6 (20:31):
Have been the number one pick in the draft?
Speaker 5 (20:33):
No, you know, I think him Moore was better than him,
but I think he could have been a first round quarterback,
early second round quarterback, just off the positional value of
the quarterback position.
Speaker 6 (20:43):
Like I know, it's like people say, like everybody has.
Speaker 5 (20:47):
A quarterback, everybody don't have a good one, And I think,
you know, quarterback is a paramount position that we saw
teams trade up and take a guy like Jackson Dart
in the first round, who I think has shown no
traits of being a true NFL quarterback besides the fact
that he's tall, white, and quote unquote handsome in my opinion.
So there are there are people that needed a quarterback
(21:10):
and I think could have got him. The Saints went
and drafted seven year six, seven year senior who's had
multiple injuries, who doesn't have any elite trades. They traded
up and got him knocking around, So I think it
was a bit crazy the slide though. Once I saw
that he didn't go in the first round, I knew
it was going to be a long I knew it
was going to be a long way for him. Just off,
(21:31):
if you don't go around one or early round two.
Their NFL teams are drafting me to be a backup quarterback.
They're not drafting you to come in and start and
give you the key to the franchise. They're asking you
to come in and develop. And to his detriments, he's
a household name. He Shader Sanders is a well known person.
Even the average or non average NFL frian knows who
(21:53):
and Shad Sanders is. So it would get loud behind
that starting quarterback if Shade Standers is sitting behind them, right, So,
I do think as it got further and further, teams
didn't want to, you know, risk themselves it. Okay, say
Derek Carr, who was the quarterback of the New Orleans saying,
say he's struggling. I don't want Game three to stand.
The fans are in the crowd channel Shade Shade. You know,
(22:16):
that's a distraction on your team in their eyes. So
once that happened, I was like, it's going to take
to a point where an owner is going to have
to step in and be like, hey, selection Sanders, which
is what happened with to Cleveland Browns. The Cleveland Browns
didn't want to take Shade Sanders. They got a call
from their ownership that was like, hey, it's time take him.
But if you saw the reaction of the front office,
(22:36):
they were like, you know, it is what it is
like clapping like they just got forced to do something,
which I think they did. I think the owner was like,
you know what, this guy's famous not having our building,
so let's take them. I think my issue with Shader
is nothing on the on the field. I think there
are valid field concerns that scouts raised with him, but
(22:56):
interestingly enough, they never raised those.
Speaker 6 (22:58):
Before the draft happened.
Speaker 5 (23:00):
So before the draft, there's an entire media complex of
mock drafts and predictions and all these things, and they
talked to all these scouts. Nobody was saying shit, there
was going behind the second round, and then all of
a sudden when the draft was happening, and after the draft, well,
you know, it makes sense that he No, you weren't
saying that months ago. You were not saying that you
(23:21):
predicted him, subredicted him to go three to the Giants,
some predicted him like later in twenty one to go
to the Saints. Like it's the The cope that they
had after the fact is what bothers me, because they
act like they expected this. They act like it's not
a big surprise. Why are you guys so up in
arms about this? No, the mock draft that you put
out every month that you know, we went and watched
(23:43):
and read you told us that he was going in
the first second round, So of course people are going
to be like, wait, you told me he.
Speaker 6 (23:49):
Was going here, he went fifth. What's going on?
Speaker 5 (23:51):
So I don't like the fact that they're old after
the fact acting like, oh, this is something not that crazy.
And then the other thing that I think one quote
really stuck out to me after the fact, when people
trying to rationalize while he fell out and they were
like an anonymous of course exact was like, hey, he
made me feel small in the room.
Speaker 6 (24:11):
That was that was a quote.
Speaker 5 (24:12):
He made me feel small in the room, And that's
absurd to me. How are you You're you're the one
making a draft pick. You're the big man in the room,
so like, how does he make you feel small? You're
the one that decides if you want to draft him
or not. And I think that just goes back to
the to kind of put it back in to the
front of confident black man that don't need the validation
(24:35):
or don't need the approval of the decision makers makes
people very very uncomfortable.
Speaker 6 (24:40):
So I'm going to stop there.
Speaker 5 (24:42):
But I think that's that's really it he makes them
uncomfortable with how much he does not need not I'm
not gonna say not need the NFL, but not need
the approval and the them to really like him in
the NFL.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Or so, yeah, that's that comment of he made me
feel small in the room. When I was coming up,
we were called that small, smarmy white boy. You know,
you know that, you know that's just to be you know,
that's that's that smimy white boy speak. You know, you're
making excuses. But I think we had a little technical difficulty.
(25:19):
So hopefully Jonathan will pop back in. So so I'm
going to ask you, Miles, do you think do you
think that the media treats black athletes differently than white athletes?
Speaker 2 (25:33):
And how how noticeable is it to you and your peers?
Speaker 6 (25:37):
Oh, one hundred percent. They treat black athletes differently.
Speaker 5 (25:39):
They treat black athletes differently, black coaches, black general managers,
black president, like any any position in sports, Black and
white are compared a little bit differently, you know. And
I think to the thing that's so tough about it
is like it's my regressions because I think in twenty
(26:01):
twenty five they're not overtly racist anymore because of you know,
the climate that we're in. I think they know that
they would be you know, called out for that, it'd
be very noticeable. But I do think they're just internalized
biases that a lot of these white decision makers have
that they show with with with how they talk about
(26:22):
the game. Right, So, like one of the things is
like a quarterback like Jalen Hurts or a quarterback like
Jaden Daniels, Right, they're never applauded for their cerebral and
like they're never it's never like, oh man, I can't
think in a quarterback that is like a black quarterback
where they say, oh man, he's a savant at the
line of screamen, like he really calls out the defenses.
Speaker 6 (26:44):
He knows what's going on.
Speaker 5 (26:46):
They love to say that with Joe Burrow though, they
love to say Joe Burrow is a savant and a
gym rat and loves and knows the knowledge of the game.
But I think with black athletes, we're just athletes, like
we're just better. It's almost like they want they say
we're better genetically than them, and that's why they're like
it's never because of how smart they are or how
(27:06):
much work they put in. It's all because of just
their god given abilities, which is some of it. But
they also are are really smart athletes. So yeah, no,
they're definitely treated differently. And I think my generation, for
sure notice is it, But I think we're starting to
care a little bit less about it, and I think
should there is an example of that not really giving
a damn what they think about black athletes because we're
(27:27):
going to.
Speaker 6 (27:27):
Do our thing and kind of be proud of who
we are. But there definitely is a difference.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
Yeah, just to add to that, minds, that's some great
points that you brought up that if we look historically,
You're right, it's more about our inherent talent versus our
intellect as relates to the game. And we know that
it's more than just the talent, you know. We know
that they do have the intellect of the game and
(27:55):
that's why they achieve and that's why they win as well.
But we're in a society that still wants to see
us as different and you know, we are continuing to
try to work through that as well. Current times making
it a little harder to do so, but we're not
you know, ending the fight or giving up on that
as well. But I thought that those were just some
(28:18):
great insights that you brought up as it relates to
the perception of that of our stereotypes, you know, and
underlying biases that are there as well.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Let's shift this conversation a little bit to the media
framing of black success and how you know, this kind
of this, you know is started in sports, but it
really extends to every area. And so I'm going to
ask I'm going to ask John and Grigg to talk
a little bit about, you know, your specific industry because
of mine. You know, I'm in academia, right, I'm a
(28:49):
university dean, So historically, you know, in academics, we tend
to see black in academia, you know, kind of push
to a certain to certain areas and historically in a
lot of university settings, right, you know, his you know,
let's push them over to black studies, right, you know,
that's you know, that's the thing. You know, that's let's
(29:11):
let's push them all over into that area and they
can have that spaith or they you know, they live
in the in the kind of the dei world, right
of whatever subtopic we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
They're they're the.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Blackest the black of this or you know, we're going
to attach black or black cultural studies or something to
whatever that is, and that's where we're going to put
the black people in academia.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
What about in your world, John In In.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
Medicine, Yeah, I mean, you know, I think it's it's
something that is again an age old. We see it
still haven't seen much progress unfortunately. So right, how many
you know black deans are you know, deans or presidents
of you know, what would be considered the top twenty
(30:00):
schools or universities out there. Those that were got criticized
so badly that they had to step down from their
position just for sanity's sake. You know, when it comes
to medicine, our struggle is still trying to get young
black men, especially black women outrank black men when it
(30:21):
comes to medicine. But we're still so small in the percentage,
you know, for our population. We are nowhere near having
the amount of medical providers out there to take care
of our communities that we need to. And it's dwindling,
and that is something that is a struggle. It's a
(30:41):
matter of how do we continue to encourage, you know,
our young people about the importance of medicine.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
You know.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
What we hear of course is going to school and
all that education that they got to go through. But
a lot of it is the debt, you know, it's
the debt that they have to go through the end
of that thing. And right now we still don't have
any any safeguards in place to try to help reduce that,
so we still stay, you know, and the minority as
relates to that, again, how many of us will we see,
(31:13):
you know, and the presidents of medical organizations and things
of that nature is like you said, we may have
a role in DEI efforts or running the clinics that
are in the underserved areas or things of that nature there,
but as we've talked in previous conversations, you know, we
have the knowledge, we have the ability, we have the
experience to be able to serve in any capacity as well.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Well.
Speaker 8 (31:38):
One of the things I love about sports is that
it really is, you know, it's been said, like a
microcosm of the broader world, and it cuts in so
many different ways, you know. You know, obviously the work
that I do in some ways, you know, it sort
of dovetails your work, Jonathan, given that our John that
represent healthcare workers, and so there is sort of a
(32:01):
hierarchy of the roles that people have. It's expected that
black folks in particular aren't doctors, right. It's assumed that culturally,
given the hierarchy of healthcare institutions, that black workers in
particular are sort of relegated to certain positions, and so
there's a value then that's attached to them based upon
(32:23):
those positions.
Speaker 7 (32:25):
You know. So that's sort of the real life thing.
Speaker 8 (32:28):
But in sports, and again it cuts in so many
different ways, you know, having gone to Iowa, we saw
it in the conversation debates around Caitlin Clark, right, the
way in which it cuts around the woman is an
incredible basketball player and has been for a long time, right,
and so there's a certain amount of extra praise, i think,
(32:51):
or privilege that she herself has sort of gotten just
by virtue of being a white woman from Iowa.
Speaker 7 (32:56):
Right. But since we're talking about football, another example.
Speaker 8 (33:01):
Of a guy from Iowa, right, Cooper Dejean played for
the Eagles, who is like sort of the first white
cornerback cornerback to be successful in a long time, and
so he gets elevated in a way that's interesting. I
think he deserves the credit. Is incredible athlete, has been
(33:21):
for a long time. But there's a certain elevation that
he gets a privilege that he's got.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
He deserves.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
He deserves the credit of being an NFL cornerback. That's
that's credit enough, right, because that's a special place in general.
But don't don't put no extra gravy on that because
he's a white boy direction well, and it's interesting to hear.
Speaker 8 (33:43):
Him talk about it, right, And I saw an interview
podcast with Ryan Clark The Pivot and they had him
on and he's interesting to hear them sort of in
a reverse sort of way, think about this question of
stereotypes and like the media putting you in a certain
in box and how you might navigate that.
Speaker 7 (34:03):
But again, at the bottom, it.
Speaker 8 (34:05):
Just really speaks to the ways in which privilege is
used to amplify certain people and the ways in which
those without privilege are somehow relegated to a lower position,
if you will, and not given credit for hard work,
for effort, And so just an interesting moment, and the
way it plays out in sports really is reflective to
(34:27):
me of the ways in which it plays out in
broader society.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Sports is supposed to be the last true meritocracy or
the only true meritocracy, right, but we keep seeing that
getting damaged all the time. I feel like, okay, go ahead.
Speaker 6 (34:43):
I was going to say, just to put a bow
on the Cooper Dejan and Kaylyn Clark. That stuff is fast.
Speaker 5 (34:49):
But I think we would all be better, and I
think a society would be a lot better if they
just admitted that they just like seeing people that look
like them do those And I think that's where it's
an issue, Like it's okay with you, like you know,
like Kaitlyn Clark, white girl in a black league getting buckets,
Like you could say that.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Like, yeah, I would if I was white, I wouldn't
want that somebody I was.
Speaker 5 (35:13):
Gonna say, like you know, obviously, obviously society is different,
and there were different barriers to why certain things exist.
But like when Tiger Woods or when anybody black is
in some a white predominated area, I'm rooting for him,
like like east Ores said, I'm room for everybody black.
Speaker 6 (35:31):
And it's like if you if you feel that way,
they don't ever want to admit that though.
Speaker 5 (35:35):
And then they use other reasonings and then that's what
gets me upset, Like if you want to be like, hey,
Cooper de Gen white cornerback, it's not a lot of us.
Speaker 6 (35:42):
I think it's pretty cool. I'd be like, all right, cool,
I get it, but they don't want to admit that.
And it's like, all right, why don't you want to?
Speaker 2 (35:49):
I mean, because that's what.
Speaker 7 (35:53):
I guess. I never really looked at it like that.
Speaker 4 (35:57):
I don't really pay attention like Caitland Clark me honestly
from just being honest, but I mean with the whole
Cooper Degene thing, I feel like it is. I mean,
I'm like, it is kind of funny that y'all, y'all,
y'all weren't in it like that. I felt like I
just thought it was funny because he was a white dude,
you know what I mean, and the fact that it
ain't been no, it really hasn't been any corner white
(36:18):
dudes in like in ages, you know what I mean,
and let alone when that's elite, you know what I mean,
that just went.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
To super Bowl and got a six pick, you know
what I mean.
Speaker 4 (36:25):
So it's just like, you know what I mean, Like,
I guess I kind of get I see where you
guys are coming from for sure. But I definitely see
why he was put on a totem pole because I
mean even then, I mean the Eagles.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
I mean, let's look at the Eagles. What that team is?
Speaker 4 (36:37):
I mean, that team is black, you know what I mean,
Like everybody is just black, you know what I mean,
It's just super black. So it's just like, and then
you got this white dude, you know what I mean,
who come like you said, came out of Iowa. I
didn't even know he came out of Iowa. So it's
just like I could see why people are fascinated with that,
you know what I mean. I could see I mean,
I wouldn't necessarily put it on a race thing, but
I could definitely see it definitely does stem from a
(36:58):
race thing. I could see what you guys are getting
it from. I just never looked at it like that,
but it was definitely interesting to hear that, to hear
that point of view. I just I just always assumed
it was from I mean, I just looked at it
like he was a white dude, A cold white dude.
I mean, but I guess it's just how I was raised,
you know what I mean. Like I just looked at
it like he was a cold white dude. He's balling,
(37:19):
you know what I mean, and he and he got it.
He worked hard because, like I said, I know how
hard it is even to just play the corner position,
you know what I mean, to even be starting on
the Eagles and one of the best defense in the league.
It's just I mean, shoot more power to him, Like
I wouldn't even paying attention to the race, you know
what I mean like that, But that's just me.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
See, yeah, you're a decent human being, is what it
sounds like. You know, I mean, I mean ultimately, that's
you know, that's not been your focus. You just actually focusing.
That's what sports is supposed to be. You know, if
somebody's cold, you know, you know, when we were sure
he's coming up, you know, basketball was my thing, so
(37:58):
you know, and a heartbeat, I would be out there
on the court, you.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Know, claim it birds, you know, shooting the shot. You know,
and you know, nobody thought twice about that. You know,
if somebody was cold, then you like them because they
was cold. You didn't really even care about the race thing.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
It was just you know, but that's the way supports is,
you know, supposed to be, and obviously there hasn't always
been that way as America, right, you know, we've had
to break into every sport that we wanted to because
they tried to keep it to themselves, at least in
terms of money.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
That was Part one of the conversation. Stay tuned for
the release of Part two, comings in
So like to welcome you while to a special episode
of Ron Refined. Today, we've got Miles and Jonathan with
its Miles and Jonathan. They are Greg and John's sons,
my nephews, brilliant young cats that are out in the world,
(00:22):
and wanted to have them come in and bring their
generations perspective. This conversation is born out of their generation's
exploits right now. Specifically, what brought about today's conversation that
we're calling beyond the draft generational reflections on media, race
and opportunity. So what brought us about was the recent
(00:48):
NFL draft controversy with involving Shrador Sanders, a Heisman Trophy
finalist who was not selected in the first round or
the second round.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
What was he? When was he? What was he in the.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Third round, fifth round.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Fifth round, fifth round by Cleveland?
Speaker 1 (01:06):
You know, it just sounds ridiculous to even say that,
you know, so the media tried to you know, there
were some allegations that he was being portrayed as cocky
or arrogant. There are anonymous mugs out there saying stuff,
you know, who didn't have the courage to put their
name on it. You know, over in Corners. I have
(01:28):
heard that he's that kind of mess, so you know,
there was that part of it. So this is this
is kind of the entry point for us for this
broader discussion on media race and what we'll call opportunity.
And so we want to dive right into that, and
we brought Miles and Jonathan in with us because we
(01:49):
wanted to get that generational perspective on opportunity and perception.
We've been at this for a while, Greg, John and
I at this meaning life. We're all with fifty six
fifty five years into this thing. You know, we've seen
double standards up close, We've seen stereotypes. We've got our
(02:11):
own perspectives on this that may be somewhat aligned in
some respects.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
We differ quite a bit.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
And actually Greg and I were different quite a bit
on this topic of Shador Sanders earlier this week.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
So you know we're gonna we're gonna talk about.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
This today, hit up Miles and Jonathan for their perspectives. So,
but first I'm gonna go a little off script and
ask Miles and Jonathan to share with us with our
listeners whatever they want to share about themselves to start
this off.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
So Jonathan jump on in, tell us something about yourself.
Speaker 4 (02:49):
But day, I guess I mean you put me on
the spot.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
I mean in what way, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Whatever you want, whatever you want the people to know.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Audience is made up of cats for the most part,
that are just like us, you know, middle aged, middle
aged black man. You know, it's our target audience. So
most of the cats are going to be like us.
So didn't mean to put you on the spot, just saying,
you know what you want the people to know about you,
you know, other than that you're John's son, Okay, that
could be enough. That might be not enough, you know, because.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
I mean, all right, so other than the fact that
I'm John saying, I mean, I'm just a young, thriving fellow,
you know what I mean. I'm very intellectual. I mean,
I love sports, I love rap music, hip hop music,
R and B music. I mean, I feel like I'm
pretty easy going. I'm easy to get along with. So
I'm pretty like I pretty much can see everybody's perspective.
So I pretty much I have a good idea of
(03:44):
what's going on with things, or at least I like
to think so. So I mean, I ain't too much
to say. I just I'm just a pretty laid bad person.
Nothing too much.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
He's laid back and he likes to have a conversation
as well too, So I'm excited about this.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Cool my man, Miles.
Speaker 5 (04:06):
Yeah, Miles Kelly, son of Greg is what has been
stated a couple of times.
Speaker 6 (04:12):
I'm from Chicago.
Speaker 5 (04:12):
I live out in La Now. Chill dude, like John said,
I went to morehouse. Yeah, man, I love sports as well.
I love, you know, really the business of sports too,
a little bit more than an actual product on the
field or on court.
Speaker 6 (04:29):
I love that as well.
Speaker 5 (04:29):
I love watching them, but I'm really interested like the
physics behind it in media. So it's a it's a
good topic for me to be honest, kind of in
my wheelhouse, talk a little bit about it. Love all
different types of music, you know. I like to have
a good time, like to go out, you know, party
a little bit. But was at a conference yesterday where
we did a lot of that, so uh, excuse my
(04:50):
voice was a little horse but uh, you know, you know,
just love to have a good time, you know, I
love you know, avenues like this. I think, you know
these kinds of conversations is that can go in all
these different places.
Speaker 6 (05:02):
They don't have enough. I don't think we talk enough about.
Speaker 5 (05:05):
Crazy topics and kind of bounce ideas off each other
as men in general.
Speaker 6 (05:09):
So I'm looking forward to it and let's do it.
Speaker 7 (05:15):
Excellent, excellent, excellent.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
So supposed to start off with like a brief overview
of Shadua Sander's performance and credentials.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Hold up, now, hold up, now, hold up, brother, We
got to do our toast, now, Yeah, that's.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
What we do for Yeah. My bad, my bad, my bad,
My man. You're right, you're right, Jump on off, John, all.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Right, brother, So we always like to start it off
with the toast, you know, just to acknowledge each other
that's in the room as well. Typically we have a
specific drink that we might bring to the podcast. However,
this being our first with these young men involved, we
did not have a specific drink that we brought on.
(05:58):
So we just decided to just bring on what you
felt it was for you at this time and and
for me, I just have some great refreshing ice cold
centric fused water.
Speaker 7 (06:19):
I was under this outstanding. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
He made it sound like you know, he was, you know,
something something from.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
The deepest corner of the planet.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
That's that's right.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
So what you got?
Speaker 7 (06:38):
What you got?
Speaker 2 (06:38):
GK what you got over there? For me?
Speaker 8 (06:40):
So I don't drink coffee a lot, but when I do,
I have Phill's Coffee. So Phil's is this sort of
San Francisco based outfit. We have one here not too
far from me in Hyde Park, and they have this
thing called Filtered Soul, and.
Speaker 7 (06:57):
It's it's really really good.
Speaker 8 (06:58):
So that's what I'm having and what's left from my
Filtered Soul purchased a.
Speaker 7 (07:03):
Little while ago.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
So like s o U L like you know, or
so like the sole of your shoe, oh u L.
Speaker 7 (07:12):
I'll standing outstanding.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
What you got over there?
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Rick?
Speaker 7 (07:17):
Tell us about your beverage today.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
I'm doing my my my standards.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
You know what I call my homemade gatorade, which you know, water,
lemon juice, a little salt, and a little Stevia extracted
in there. So it's it's just you know, it's my
my I drink about about eighty ounces of that a day,
you know, then just regular water than that.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
So that's what like I do basically a few yetdias
of this today.
Speaker 7 (07:45):
All right, good deal, Jonathan.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
What you got going on over there.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
I mean, well, so what I was told was that
y'all had drinks.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
So so.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
The trooper that I am, I made me a drink.
So I mean, I just I just got a little.
It's a little mango whiskey sour.
Speaker 6 (08:10):
Okay, that's our a.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
You know, there ain't nothing wrong with it.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
And and as as Rick had mentioned before we started,
you know, if things get get really comfortable up in here,
we might we might add a little to this.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
We'll see how that goes.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
I can't I can't leave my nephew out here, so
I'm about I'm gonna have to go ahead, and poor man.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
You're gonna get to us now.
Speaker 6 (08:44):
So yeah, no, I had no I had no idea
about it.
Speaker 5 (08:48):
I would have did the thing and I would have
got some love, miss missing that I am not in
my normal residence. I'm my mother's house and she has
a awberry barkling walk.
Speaker 7 (09:04):
So okay, all right, if we do get a.
Speaker 6 (09:08):
Drink, I'll try and see what she got. But now
I got.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Okay, well, nephew, I've got you back. I can't have
you out here by yourself, so we don't appreciated and
poured me up a little. I got this Bard's Town
right here, Origin Origin series. It's really nice. Yeah, nice birthday.
So I'm I'm rolling with you.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
And because of your backstory here you o man and
your uncle over there called me out doing one of
our previous episodes because we were what were we doing.
We were doing like we were doing champagne right or
something right sort. So I had my prosecco in my yetie,
(09:58):
so so the right they like about that.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
So I'm gonna have to switch off my background for
just a second year.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
I was gonna show you now. Of course when I
say that, Dan wants to act Jackie. So I don't
know if you can see my glass, but this is
a very nice crystal with the words Central Intelligence Agency
across these.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
These were a gift.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
There.
Speaker 7 (10:31):
You go much better, you know.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
I'm gonna start off with just to give you a
little something about s George Sanders, right, you know, if
we go back to twenty twenty two twenty season when
he was at Jackson State, thirteen games, seventy percent completion percentage,
thirty seven hundred passing yards, forty touchdown, six interceptions, swacked
Offensive Player of the Year Deacon Jones Trophy as a
(10:56):
top HBCU player twenty twenty three season and Colorado eleven games,
completion percentage sixty nine percent, passing yards thirty two hundred touchdowns,
twenty seven, three interceptions, passer rating one point fifty one
point seven for a Russian touchdown. He set the Colorado
(11:19):
single game record five hundred passing yards twenty twenty four, again,
thirty seven touchdowns, ten interceptions, so not as good one
hundred and sixty eight point two passer rating, completion percentage
seventy four percent. You know, Heisman Trophy finalists, all of
(11:41):
a sudden fifth round. Some of the criticisms that he
faced was that he was cocky, he was too arrogant.
Some of the other criticisms were related to the combine
and his performance or lack of performance in certain areas.
Decisions around whether or not he decided to interview with
(12:03):
certain people came out, you know, and there was this
other whole backstory of his father.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
And you know, his input, his advice or.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
You know, decisions that were made that his father may
have contributed to, and how all of this went down.
But the bottom line was he wasn't a fifth round pick.
He was one of the folkets that was up there
in that Heismian photo right, and somehow he went in
the fifth round, and I think I called BS. But
(12:42):
now the hand of Mic over the grid.
Speaker 8 (12:45):
So this is one of the things Rich and I
had some disagreement about. And the funny part is the
disagreement was he thought he should be a first rounder.
I was not convinced that he should be a first rounder.
In fact, I argued that he'd be lucky to be
a second rounder. And it isn't simply because of the
raw numbers. I think his numbers speak for themselves. I
(13:09):
think as a Big twelve quarterback, he had a pretty
good year, you know, given the competition, and you know,
his assessment of his ability based upon his competition, you know,
being a big ten guy kind of look a little
sideways at the Big twelve these days, given like real
(13:30):
dissolution and the quality of play in that league.
Speaker 7 (13:34):
But having said that he should not.
Speaker 8 (13:36):
Have been a fifth round fifth round seemed to be
a bit ridiculous. But you know, he's a reflection, though,
of some historical trends that we've seen over the years
about black athletes and black males in particular. And despite
the fact that you might have the numbers, and you
might be competitive and you're a little confident you somehow
(13:58):
get bypassed. It's there a number of historical examples. You
can go back to boxing, right, we can go back
to Jack Johnson and the perception that he was just
he was just so arrogant even while he was beating
everybody up. It was what he was doing, of course
off the mac that really got his attention, including being
(14:19):
with white women. But there's also this example of people
like you know, Johnny you know Manzell, who you know,
got drafted. You know it had some really you know,
crazy numbers, but he still got drafted fairly early on.
And so there's this question with Shadoor, you know, whether
(14:39):
or not he was treated different differently because of his arrogance.
And there are you know, white kind of parts like
you know, Johnny Football even had a name for him, right,
Johnny Football and our other guy, Baker Mayfield. You know,
so many examples of really fairly arrogant white quarterbacks who
(15:00):
are not just Heisman Trophy winners, but also got drafted
fairly on early on in the draft, but were celebrated
for being sort of edgy and cocky and all of
that stuff. So the argument against Shadeur is that his
cockiness worked against him, and so, you know, I think
(15:21):
there's a lot of basis for that, but I'm sure
we'll get a lot of justification for that. But we'll
get more into that in the future part of this conversation.
But it's clear that arrogance cockiness hasn't stopped other quarterbacks
and other athletes and sports from getting this shy. But
in this case and in the case of other black athletes,
(15:42):
there seems to be a double standard when it comes
to just pure confidence.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
And we'll talk a little more too, but this, you know,
also let's the stress that this doesn't take away from
cam Ward, you know, being selected as the first you
know pick of the draft, being a quarterback himself as well.
You know, his stats and stuff speak well to what
he was able to achieve during his.
Speaker 7 (16:05):
Year as well.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
But it did highlight some things as well, given that
there was conversation about his presence versus how Shadur presented himself,
and you know, why does that factor in as relates
to your ability? And I think that's where we'll talk
more about it, and definitely stress on the conversation as
(16:29):
it relates to to confidence versus arrogance. I think that's
part of the perception that's out there as well. Can
a black man be confident and not be arrogant? And
this is something I'm sure we'll touch on, you know,
during the conversation today as well.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (16:46):
Yeah, actually think that's that's why I argued that Shaduur
wasn't passed over in the first round or second round
for that matter, because of his confidence. I'm like, have
you have you seen Cam like me exactly exactly in confidence?
Speaker 7 (17:06):
Right? He was the first in the draft. So anyway,
that's a whole longer part of the combo.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Yeah, you know, you know, I'm trying to be cool.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
I'm trying not to just you know, it's all crap,
as far as I'm sorry it was, it's you know,
you know, we can talk about some of this other
stuff and I think that there are levels of it,
but you know, it's just some crap. But but but Jonathan,
you know, I want to know how you how you
feel about this, and then I'm going to ask you
(17:36):
the question of you know, have you ever personally felt
like you had to overperform or be perfect to be
taken seriously in school or at work. You know this,
Did you ever feel this double standard?
Speaker 4 (17:49):
I mean so for the first part, I mean my
feelings on your door, going fifth round, I do feel
like it was a little dragged out or exaggerated in
a sense. He definitely shouldn't have went in the fifth
for sure. I definitely think he was a third or
fourth though I don't think he was a first or
second by any means, especially with him going to the
(18:13):
Colorado and then just me personally, the Big twelve is
just not that competitive compared to the SEC or ACC
and like where the other respective quarterbacks may have may.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Have came out of.
Speaker 4 (18:25):
So I feel like, honestly, the fifth round really wasn't
a bad pick honestly for where he went and what
he gave in his college career. I mean, I mean
he went to Jackson State and they only played with
two seasons. That Colorado in the first season technically wasn't
the greatest, you know what I mean. So it's just
I really do think it was realistic.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
I really don't.
Speaker 7 (18:45):
I do think it was.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
I feel like it was kind of played out because
of who he is, because of the cloud that he's
that he's brought around his name, you know what I mean,
And that's and more power to him, you know what
I mean. I love you know what I mean, I
love the rode and everything, but I do think stuff
is still realistic in it. In NFL, you got you
got people who are putting in more work. Quarterbacks who
went to harder schools, you know what I mean, who
(19:07):
put in work from being maybe a third which you
would say like a third not third pick whatever, but
like a third, third string quarterback or whatever, and he
worked up to first string quarterback, got it kind of
on the silver platter, you know what I mean. It's
just kind of like I can, I can. I can
understand it. I can understand where people you know what
I mean, I can see both sides, you know what
I mean. I feel like he definitely is a great
(19:28):
football player. But I do think respectfully that the fifth
round was was. I see nothing wrong with it. I mean,
I Stiel like he's getting his chance to shine.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
At the end of the day, it's not like he
didn't he didn't get drafted. Now if he if he
went undrafted, now that's a different story. Now now we're
now we are looking at you know what I mean?
All right, now, some something going on, But but I
feel like fifth round with looking at everything, and then
at the end of the day, a lot of teams
don't need quarterbacks. If we're really gonna be real, like,
if we're really gonna look at you know what I mean,
who needs a quarterback? A lot of teams are honestly
(19:59):
situated and they have already been building their teams. And
so I mean, honestly, a quarterback in the first second
round wouldn't be the wouldn't be the smartest pick.
Speaker 7 (20:06):
But you think Miles.
Speaker 5 (20:08):
Derrick Sanders man, it's uh, he's it is a fascinating
He's just such a fascinating character to me. His whole
family is just a fascinating kind of take on like
media and fame and popularity and all that stuff. But
to the broader point of how do I feel about
shit going in the fifth round? It definitely is BS
(20:28):
for sure, you know it's should shoul Shade.
Speaker 6 (20:31):
Have been the number one pick in the draft?
Speaker 5 (20:33):
No, you know, I think him Moore was better than him,
but I think he could have been a first round quarterback,
early second round quarterback, just off the positional value of
the quarterback position.
Speaker 6 (20:43):
Like I know, it's like people say, like everybody has.
Speaker 5 (20:47):
A quarterback, everybody don't have a good one, And I think,
you know, quarterback is a paramount position that we saw
teams trade up and take a guy like Jackson Dart
in the first round, who I think has shown no
traits of being a true NFL quarterback besides the fact
that he's tall, white, and quote unquote handsome in my opinion.
So there are there are people that needed a quarterback
(21:10):
and I think could have got him. The Saints went
and drafted seven year six, seven year senior who's had
multiple injuries, who doesn't have any elite trades. They traded
up and got him knocking around, So I think it
was a bit crazy the slide though. Once I saw
that he didn't go in the first round, I knew
it was going to be a long I knew it
was going to be a long way for him. Just off,
(21:31):
if you don't go around one or early round two.
Their NFL teams are drafting me to be a backup quarterback.
They're not drafting you to come in and start and
give you the key to the franchise. They're asking you
to come in and develop. And to his detriments, he's
a household name. He Shader Sanders is a well known person.
Even the average or non average NFL frian knows who
(21:53):
and Shad Sanders is. So it would get loud behind
that starting quarterback if Shade Standers is sitting behind them, right, So,
I do think as it got further and further, teams
didn't want to, you know, risk themselves it. Okay, say
Derek Carr, who was the quarterback of the New Orleans saying,
say he's struggling. I don't want Game three to stand.
The fans are in the crowd channel Shade Shade. You know,
(22:16):
that's a distraction on your team in their eyes. So
once that happened, I was like, it's going to take
to a point where an owner is going to have
to step in and be like, hey, selection Sanders, which
is what happened with to Cleveland Browns. The Cleveland Browns
didn't want to take Shade Sanders. They got a call
from their ownership that was like, hey, it's time take him.
But if you saw the reaction of the front office,
(22:36):
they were like, you know, it is what it is
like clapping like they just got forced to do something,
which I think they did. I think the owner was like,
you know what, this guy's famous not having our building,
so let's take them. I think my issue with Shader
is nothing on the on the field. I think there
are valid field concerns that scouts raised with him, but
(22:56):
interestingly enough, they never raised those.
Speaker 6 (22:58):
Before the draft happened.
Speaker 5 (23:00):
So before the draft, there's an entire media complex of
mock drafts and predictions and all these things, and they
talked to all these scouts. Nobody was saying shit, there
was going behind the second round, and then all of
a sudden when the draft was happening, and after the draft, well,
you know, it makes sense that he No, you weren't
saying that months ago. You were not saying that you
(23:21):
predicted him, subredicted him to go three to the Giants,
some predicted him like later in twenty one to go
to the Saints. Like it's the The cope that they
had after the fact is what bothers me, because they
act like they expected this. They act like it's not
a big surprise. Why are you guys so up in
arms about this? No, the mock draft that you put
out every month that you know, we went and watched
(23:43):
and read you told us that he was going in
the first second round, So of course people are going
to be like, wait, you told me he.
Speaker 6 (23:49):
Was going here, he went fifth. What's going on?
Speaker 5 (23:51):
So I don't like the fact that they're old after
the fact acting like, oh, this is something not that crazy.
And then the other thing that I think one quote
really stuck out to me after the fact, when people
trying to rationalize while he fell out and they were
like an anonymous of course exact was like, hey, he
made me feel small in the room.
Speaker 6 (24:11):
That was that was a quote.
Speaker 5 (24:12):
He made me feel small in the room, And that's
absurd to me. How are you You're you're the one
making a draft pick. You're the big man in the room,
so like, how does he make you feel small? You're
the one that decides if you want to draft him
or not. And I think that just goes back to
the to kind of put it back in to the
front of confident black man that don't need the validation
(24:35):
or don't need the approval of the decision makers makes
people very very uncomfortable.
Speaker 6 (24:40):
So I'm going to stop there.
Speaker 5 (24:42):
But I think that's that's really it he makes them
uncomfortable with how much he does not need not I'm
not gonna say not need the NFL, but not need
the approval and the them to really like him in
the NFL.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Or so, yeah, that's that comment of he made me
feel small in the room. When I was coming up,
we were called that small, smarmy white boy. You know,
you know that, you know that's just to be you know,
that's that's that smimy white boy speak. You know, you're
making excuses. But I think we had a little technical difficulty.
(25:19):
So hopefully Jonathan will pop back in. So so I'm
going to ask you, Miles, do you think do you
think that the media treats black athletes differently than white athletes?
Speaker 2 (25:33):
And how how noticeable is it to you and your peers?
Speaker 6 (25:37):
Oh, one hundred percent. They treat black athletes differently.
Speaker 5 (25:39):
They treat black athletes differently, black coaches, black general managers,
black president, like any any position in sports, Black and
white are compared a little bit differently, you know. And
I think to the thing that's so tough about it
is like it's my regressions because I think in twenty
(26:01):
twenty five they're not overtly racist anymore because of you know,
the climate that we're in. I think they know that
they would be you know, called out for that, it'd
be very noticeable. But I do think they're just internalized
biases that a lot of these white decision makers have
that they show with with with how they talk about
(26:22):
the game. Right, So, like one of the things is
like a quarterback like Jalen Hurts or a quarterback like
Jaden Daniels, Right, they're never applauded for their cerebral and
like they're never it's never like, oh man, I can't
think in a quarterback that is like a black quarterback
where they say, oh man, he's a savant at the
line of screamen, like he really calls out the defenses.
Speaker 6 (26:44):
He knows what's going on.
Speaker 5 (26:46):
They love to say that with Joe Burrow though, they
love to say Joe Burrow is a savant and a
gym rat and loves and knows the knowledge of the game.
But I think with black athletes, we're just athletes, like
we're just better. It's almost like they want they say
we're better genetically than them, and that's why they're like
it's never because of how smart they are or how
(27:06):
much work they put in. It's all because of just
their god given abilities, which is some of it. But
they also are are really smart athletes. So yeah, no,
they're definitely treated differently. And I think my generation, for
sure notice is it, But I think we're starting to
care a little bit less about it, and I think
should there is an example of that not really giving
a damn what they think about black athletes because we're
(27:27):
going to.
Speaker 6 (27:27):
Do our thing and kind of be proud of who
we are. But there definitely is a difference.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
Yeah, just to add to that, minds, that's some great
points that you brought up that if we look historically,
You're right, it's more about our inherent talent versus our
intellect as relates to the game. And we know that
it's more than just the talent, you know. We know
that they do have the intellect of the game and
(27:55):
that's why they achieve and that's why they win as well.
But we're in a society that still wants to see
us as different and you know, we are continuing to
try to work through that as well. Current times making
it a little harder to do so, but we're not
you know, ending the fight or giving up on that
as well. But I thought that those were just some
(28:18):
great insights that you brought up as it relates to
the perception of that of our stereotypes, you know, and
underlying biases that are there as well.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Let's shift this conversation a little bit to the media
framing of black success and how you know, this kind
of this, you know is started in sports, but it
really extends to every area. And so I'm going to
ask I'm going to ask John and Grigg to talk
a little bit about, you know, your specific industry because
of mine. You know, I'm in academia, right, I'm a
(28:49):
university dean, So historically, you know, in academics, we tend
to see black in academia, you know, kind of push
to a certain to certain areas and historically in a
lot of university settings, right, you know, his you know,
let's push them over to black studies, right, you know,
that's you know, that's the thing. You know, that's let's
(29:11):
let's push them all over into that area and they
can have that spaith or they you know, they live
in the in the kind of the dei world, right
of whatever subtopic we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
They're they're the.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Blackest the black of this or you know, we're going
to attach black or black cultural studies or something to
whatever that is, and that's where we're going to put
the black people in academia.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
What about in your world, John In In.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
Medicine, Yeah, I mean, you know, I think it's it's
something that is again an age old. We see it
still haven't seen much progress unfortunately. So right, how many
you know black deans are you know, deans or presidents
of you know, what would be considered the top twenty
(30:00):
schools or universities out there. Those that were got criticized
so badly that they had to step down from their
position just for sanity's sake. You know, when it comes
to medicine, our struggle is still trying to get young
black men, especially black women outrank black men when it
(30:21):
comes to medicine. But we're still so small in the percentage,
you know, for our population. We are nowhere near having
the amount of medical providers out there to take care
of our communities that we need to. And it's dwindling,
and that is something that is a struggle. It's a
(30:41):
matter of how do we continue to encourage, you know,
our young people about the importance of medicine.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
You know.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
What we hear of course is going to school and
all that education that they got to go through. But
a lot of it is the debt, you know, it's
the debt that they have to go through the end
of that thing. And right now we still don't have
any any safeguards in place to try to help reduce that,
so we still stay, you know, and the minority as
relates to that, again, how many of us will we see,
(31:13):
you know, and the presidents of medical organizations and things
of that nature is like you said, we may have
a role in DEI efforts or running the clinics that
are in the underserved areas or things of that nature there,
but as we've talked in previous conversations, you know, we
have the knowledge, we have the ability, we have the
experience to be able to serve in any capacity as well.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Well.
Speaker 8 (31:38):
One of the things I love about sports is that
it really is, you know, it's been said, like a
microcosm of the broader world, and it cuts in so
many different ways, you know. You know, obviously the work
that I do in some ways, you know, it sort
of dovetails your work, Jonathan, given that our John that
represent healthcare workers, and so there is sort of a
(32:01):
hierarchy of the roles that people have. It's expected that
black folks in particular aren't doctors, right. It's assumed that culturally,
given the hierarchy of healthcare institutions, that black workers in
particular are sort of relegated to certain positions, and so
there's a value then that's attached to them based upon
(32:23):
those positions.
Speaker 7 (32:25):
You know. So that's sort of the real life thing.
Speaker 8 (32:28):
But in sports, and again it cuts in so many
different ways, you know, having gone to Iowa, we saw
it in the conversation debates around Caitlin Clark, right, the
way in which it cuts around the woman is an
incredible basketball player and has been for a long time, right,
and so there's a certain amount of extra praise, i think,
(32:51):
or privilege that she herself has sort of gotten just
by virtue of being a white woman from Iowa.
Speaker 7 (32:56):
Right. But since we're talking about football, another example.
Speaker 8 (33:01):
Of a guy from Iowa, right, Cooper Dejean played for
the Eagles, who is like sort of the first white
cornerback cornerback to be successful in a long time, and
so he gets elevated in a way that's interesting. I
think he deserves the credit. Is incredible athlete, has been
(33:21):
for a long time. But there's a certain elevation that
he gets a privilege that he's got.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
He deserves.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
He deserves the credit of being an NFL cornerback. That's
that's credit enough, right, because that's a special place in general.
But don't don't put no extra gravy on that because
he's a white boy direction well, and it's interesting to hear.
Speaker 8 (33:43):
Him talk about it, right, And I saw an interview
podcast with Ryan Clark The Pivot and they had him
on and he's interesting to hear them sort of in
a reverse sort of way, think about this question of
stereotypes and like the media putting you in a certain
in box and how you might navigate that.
Speaker 7 (34:03):
But again, at the bottom, it.
Speaker 8 (34:05):
Just really speaks to the ways in which privilege is
used to amplify certain people and the ways in which
those without privilege are somehow relegated to a lower position,
if you will, and not given credit for hard work,
for effort, And so just an interesting moment, and the
way it plays out in sports really is reflective to
(34:27):
me of the ways in which it plays out in
broader society.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Sports is supposed to be the last true meritocracy or
the only true meritocracy, right, but we keep seeing that
getting damaged all the time. I feel like, okay, go ahead.
Speaker 6 (34:43):
I was going to say, just to put a bow
on the Cooper Dejan and Kaylyn Clark. That stuff is fast.
Speaker 5 (34:49):
But I think we would all be better, and I
think a society would be a lot better if they
just admitted that they just like seeing people that look
like them do those And I think that's where it's
an issue, Like it's okay with you, like you know,
like Kaitlyn Clark, white girl in a black league getting buckets,
Like you could say that.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Like, yeah, I would if I was white, I wouldn't
want that somebody I was.
Speaker 5 (35:13):
Gonna say, like you know, obviously, obviously society is different,
and there were different barriers to why certain things exist.
But like when Tiger Woods or when anybody black is
in some a white predominated area, I'm rooting for him,
like like east Ores said, I'm room for everybody black.
Speaker 6 (35:31):
And it's like if you if you feel that way,
they don't ever want to admit that though.
Speaker 5 (35:35):
And then they use other reasonings and then that's what
gets me upset, Like if you want to be like, hey,
Cooper de Gen white cornerback, it's not a lot of us.
Speaker 6 (35:42):
I think it's pretty cool. I'd be like, all right, cool,
I get it, but they don't want to admit that.
And it's like, all right, why don't you want to?
Speaker 2 (35:49):
I mean, because that's what.
Speaker 7 (35:53):
I guess. I never really looked at it like that.
Speaker 4 (35:57):
I don't really pay attention like Caitland Clark me honestly
from just being honest, but I mean with the whole
Cooper Degene thing, I feel like it is. I mean,
I'm like, it is kind of funny that y'all, y'all,
y'all weren't in it like that. I felt like I
just thought it was funny because he was a white dude,
you know what I mean, and the fact that it
ain't been no, it really hasn't been any corner white
(36:18):
dudes in like in ages, you know what I mean,
and let alone when that's elite, you know what I mean,
that just went.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
To super Bowl and got a six pick, you know
what I mean.
Speaker 4 (36:25):
So it's just like, you know what I mean, Like,
I guess I kind of get I see where you
guys are coming from for sure. But I definitely see
why he was put on a totem pole because I
mean even then, I mean the Eagles.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
I mean, let's look at the Eagles. What that team is?
Speaker 4 (36:37):
I mean, that team is black, you know what I mean,
Like everybody is just black, you know what I mean,
It's just super black. So it's just like, and then
you got this white dude, you know what I mean,
who come like you said, came out of Iowa. I
didn't even know he came out of Iowa. So it's
just like I could see why people are fascinated with that,
you know what I mean. I could see I mean,
I wouldn't necessarily put it on a race thing, but
I could definitely see it definitely does stem from a
(36:58):
race thing. I could see what you guys are getting
it from. I just never looked at it like that,
but it was definitely interesting to hear that, to hear
that point of view. I just I just always assumed
it was from I mean, I just looked at it
like he was a white dude, A cold white dude.
I mean, but I guess it's just how I was raised,
you know what I mean. Like I just looked at
it like he was a cold white dude. He's balling,
(37:19):
you know what I mean, and he and he got it.
He worked hard because, like I said, I know how
hard it is even to just play the corner position,
you know what I mean, to even be starting on
the Eagles and one of the best defense in the league.
It's just I mean, shoot more power to him, Like
I wouldn't even paying attention to the race, you know
what I mean like that, But that's just me.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
See, yeah, you're a decent human being, is what it
sounds like. You know, I mean, I mean ultimately, that's
you know, that's not been your focus. You just actually focusing.
That's what sports is supposed to be. You know, if
somebody's cold, you know, you know, when we were sure
he's coming up, you know, basketball was my thing, so
(37:58):
you know, and a heartbeat, I would be out there
on the court, you.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Know, claim it birds, you know, shooting the shot. You know,
and you know, nobody thought twice about that. You know,
if somebody was cold, then you like them because they
was cold. You didn't really even care about the race thing.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
It was just you know, but that's the way supports is,
you know, supposed to be, and obviously there hasn't always
been that way as America, right, you know, we've had
to break into every sport that we wanted to because
they tried to keep it to themselves, at least in
terms of money.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
That was Part one of the conversation. Stay tuned for
the release of Part two, comings in
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