April 30, 2025 • 48 mins
The three Brothers discuss imposter syndrome. They delve into the different types of imposter syndrome, and they reflect personally on their own lives and how imposter syndrome may have impacted them. They look at how common the syndrome is in our society, and they discuss tools and strategies to overcome imposter syndrome. This episode is brought to you by Holver Travel. www.holvertravel.com
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Brought to you by Halvard Traveler.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Welcome back to our sixth episode of Raw and Refined
The Gentleman's Hour. This is where we have three men,
middle aged black males that have known each other for
almost forty years. We are sharing our experiences, our life,
our knowledge with you and these are typical conversations that
(00:29):
we have that we thought that could help others, especially
black males. We appreciate those that have been listening to
our first five episodes and for those that are new,
we hope you look forward to the following episodes coming
up as well. Again, please like, share, comment, and we'll
(00:51):
keep this thing Roland. We always like to start our
hour off with a toast, and this time we're gonna
keep it simple. We're doing a tall glass of water.
There are different ways you can get that water. Mine
is filtered with ice, but it is raw and refined.
(01:16):
A toast to my brothers.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Well, mine has a little lemon in it, some lemon juice,
and also has a little salt in it, and it
has a little bit of organic stevia in there, so
it's kind of like a it's kind of like a
natural gatorade.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
There you go.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
Well, mine is sparkling water and it's waterlo and it's
tropical fruit. I've become this fan of the sparkling waters
and so this is this is my favorite one.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Okay, all right, I'll stay am. I'm glad that we have.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Well there you go, nice check them out, check them out,
showing off his new mic, his new mic. Right, Oh
my goodness. All right, Well, let me just quickly introduce
each of us. We have Rich rich as an attorney
(02:18):
as well as the university program dean for the College
or Criminal Justice. We have Greg he is a community
activist and union president. And we have myself, John, I'm
a physician and physician executive. We hope that this topic
today will be insightful and we're looking forward to the
(02:41):
different conversations that we're going to have surrounding imposter syndrome.
We're going to talk about imposter syndrome today. Poster syndrome
actually appears to affect each of us, or at least
about seventy to eighty percent of the population, which I
think was remarkable. At some point in our lives, we
(03:05):
typically think of imposter syndrome as it relates to our
working environment or educational endeavors. But it can also even
flow into relationships as well as how we even think
of ourselves when it comes to racial identity. Definition of
imposter syndrome is that it's a persistent internal feeling of
(03:30):
self doubt or feeling like we are fraud and what
or who we are despite all of the success that
we have been able to attain as a result of
what we do.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
This is a very.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Common topic, so we're excited about having this conversation today
and we'll touch upon how society and cultural pressures can
affect our feelings as it relates to imposter syndrome, but
as we do, we are going to focus a little
bit more on how this affects black males specifically as well.
(04:06):
We're going to talk about the five types of imposter syndrome,
and we're going to try to share where we think
we may fit in one of those types or at
times where or when we may have felt that we
were in that imposter phenomenon, and then hopefully we'll be
able to offer some ways of healing, growth and realizing
(04:28):
that it's okay to have the feeling, but we're going
to have to understand and recognize the feeling for us
to be able to grow and be better from it.
So let's get started. GK, you want to explain to
us the live types.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
Yeah, so you've started us out. Well, you know, I
think as we've looked at this, there's sort of five
or six sort of base types of imposter syndrome that
we've uncovered, and so just quickly kind of going through
those five or six. The first one, in no particular order,
is the superhuman and what this means and what is
(05:09):
characterized by is feelings of pressure to succeed in every
domain of life. That's not just career, but that's also
family and social life. This sort of superhuman type connects
success to how hard they work and productivity, and folks
(05:31):
who deal with this are often experiencing burnout or overworking
just trying to meet the impossible expectations. Thus the superhuman
sort of The second type that's been identified is the
person who believes that asking for help is a weakness,
(05:51):
may struggle to delegate or collaborate with others, suffers silently
with a feeling of being overwhelmed.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Don't you know that I'm a solo list.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Rock Kim.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
So that's sort of the second type of imposter syndrome.
The third one, if you will, is referred to as
the expert, and that's the person who's always seeking more
knowledge or training to feel unquote unquote qualified, and that
this person feels like a fraud unless they know everything
(06:28):
about everything, and often hesitates to speak up in meetings
or in conversations or take action without the perfect preparation. Again,
that's the expert what we're calling the third type. And
then there is the natural genius who believes that success
(06:50):
should just be effortless and that it should just come naturally.
But this person struggles a lot when things don't come
easily and that it isn't effortless and interprets difficulty as
a type of failure. Again, this is the expert type.
(07:11):
And then we have the perfectionist who sets unrealistically high
standards and focuses on flaws and not wins and really
never feel satisfied with their performance and avoids celebrating achievements
due to constant self critique. And so that's kind of
(07:34):
the last of those that group of types of imposter
syndrome that we've sort of identified. But I think John,
you also have discovered another type.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Yeah, Well, we've know and I believe this actually would
incorporate all of those five types within a we'll say
subcategory of pasta syndrome, and that's racial imposter syndrome. And
how that's defined is that it is where people who
(08:06):
may identify with a certain race or culture may not
feel a part of that race or culture. They can't
identify with what society may say, Hey, you're a black male,
why aren't you acting like a black male? And therefore,
you know, or you may hear the conversation why you
(08:28):
always sound in white? You know's what's that about?
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Aren't you know?
Speaker 2 (08:32):
You don't identify with your culture and everything. You don't
listen to rap, you don't listen to hip hop?
Speaker 3 (08:38):
You know? Who are you? Type deal?
Speaker 2 (08:40):
And that can cause people to feel like, man, am
i am I black?
Speaker 3 (08:45):
You know?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Or is there something wrong with me as to why
I'm not doing this, that or the other. So those
are some things that can impact us specifically as well,
and it could be in all races and cultures as
it relates to that. So I'm sure we'll get a
little bit more into that as we go on with
our conversation.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
Yeah, I imagine even questions around sexual orientation can be
viewed through these lens as well.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
I'd have to agree with you Greg on that as well.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
This is cool, this this list is. It's interesting, you
know that I can at different points in my life
I could see different of these you know types, you know,
playing out in some ways in my life. I think
when I was in college, definitely there were there were
(09:38):
some of this perfectionist thing, you know, you would think,
you know, I'm sure Greg and John looked at this
list and said, well, of course he picked the natural genius.
And I was like, no, because because Greg, But as
you look at the things that were tied to with
the characteristics, you know, believes success should be f for
(10:00):
less struggles deeply when things don't come easily internalize as
difficulty as failure. Those aren't things that I've ever done,
you know, And so my belief in my genius is
different from being the natural genius in this context. I
think that the superhuman at some points, definitely, but at
other points the perfection is setting the unrealistically high standards,
(10:24):
focusing on flaws not wins. You know, I've definitely, at
different points along the way, have done that. Never the expert,
you know, I've witnessed that, seeing people who have been
like that, that kind of that frozen in place, scared
to do because you know, I don't know if I
know enough, you know, a thousand percent more than me
(10:46):
on this subject, just you know, spending five minutes with you,
so you know, you should be able to pull the
trigger and make that decision. But you know, so it's
really interesting to see it it play out in real life,
you know, and to see how easy it is for
people to get caught up in these feelings and how
much they can let it control themselves, you know, and
(11:08):
how it can lead to you know, so much of
what we end up talking about, unfortunately ends up you know,
talking about the potential damages that we can do to
ourselves living life. But that's just the reality, right And
that's kind of what we're talking about as things to
avoid it because that's stress to burnout, hiding struggles are
all things that you know, superhumans do to themselves when
(11:31):
they try to do it all, when they try to
take on all the pressure, when they try to be
the one for the family. You know, I'm going to be,
you know, being the matriarch, being the patriarch, being the whoever,
for everybody is draining of one's energy without a doubt,
so it's easy to fall victim of your own I
guess internal struggles trying to deal with this being the
(11:54):
superhuman or being the perfectionist.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
Now I agree with the on that rich.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
I think that with most of us, and this is
probably why it's seen in about seventy to eighty percent
of the population, is that when we're starting off in
our careers, you have a feeling of do I know
enough you know to be able to be a part
of the conversation with folks who we identify as they've
(12:20):
been here for a long time?
Speaker 3 (12:22):
What am I? You know? What do I know? You know?
Speaker 2 (12:25):
How can I say this? And they might shoot me
down and think of me as you know, why did
we hire you type deal?
Speaker 3 (12:32):
You know?
Speaker 2 (12:32):
And why did you say that? So I can definitely say,
you know earlier in my career, and actually, as I'm
having this conversation, I'm also thinking about it even early
as joining the fraternity, and that may be something you know,
we can touch upon as it relates to that too,
as to your knowledge and being able to feel comfortable,
you know, speaking up with with the with the big
(12:55):
brothers in the room type deal about topics and situations.
But as a physician, yeah, you know, one thing I've
experienced is I fit into that soloist aspect and maybe
even some.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Of that expert aspect as well.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
I don't know if part of that is related to
being an only child coming up and just you know,
feeling like, hey, I have to be the best, you know,
I have to know what's going on in any situation,
especially before I can feel comfortable speaking on any situation
because again, not wanting to be seen as as less
(13:33):
then and then usually I'm the only one or a
few of color that's in the room, especially in the
role as a physician executive, where you have to feel like, well,
wait a minute, I wonder you know, if I say this,
are they going to look at me like what are
you talking about? You know, where did that come from?
(13:53):
Type deal versus knowing and recognizing that I have that background,
I have that educate, I have that experience and what
I share is valid. And that's the point that we'll
get to as we continue to have this conversation, is
that we have to get beyond that fear to realize
(14:14):
you do have the ability to say and perform in
a way that you have already experienced and learned about
how to do your role as well. If we don't,
it can definitely impact our overall mental health, which can
then impact our physical health and even maybe other relationships
(14:35):
and things like that that come into play as well.
So as that thought of soloist and expert can definitely see,
especially again early in my career, how to fit in,
but I've since grown from that as well, which is
the whole point of that. In this conversation, what about you, Greg,
what have you had any thoughts?
Speaker 4 (14:55):
Yep, No, I think both of you nailed it. There's
a way in which, at different times we had different
variations of the various types, and that it's constantly shifting.
I think also, I think that you know what I
love about this topic is that there's a way in
which I've been most familiar, made most familiar with the
(15:18):
concept of imposter syndrome in sort of your professional life
or your career, but that it's bigger than just that, right,
that it can show up in the dynamics in your
relationships with people and family dynamics and other sort of
social contexts. So it's a it's a rich subject, not
(15:39):
rich holloway, but a rich subject.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
But it's genius. Right.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
But when I was younger, you know, first starting out,
and you know, in the work that I do, oh,
the soloist was definitely a big part of how I
saw myself. I think, you know, collaboration though was not
really hard for me. It's not hard for me now,
butially that asking for help is weakness was definitely something
(16:10):
that has you know, impacted me more back then. You know,
so as you evolve in your career, you get more
experiencing around more people, those kinds of fears are lessened.
Speaker 5 (16:21):
But you know, when you're a parent.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
You know, sometimes you're always sure about the decisions that
you make and the impact of them, until you know
the fruit is born many years later.
Speaker 5 (16:32):
Right.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
So it's just an interesting way of thinking about how
we are our authentic selves and how we are able
to bring our best selves to whatever situation we're in,
whether it's family or other personal relationships or in work,
and so you know, so yeah, I think at different
(16:53):
times I've had different traits of all of these things
we've mentioned, and it shifts all the time.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
It does because I think at this point I think
I can I feel comfortable speaking for the three of
us and saying that in terms of our career, the
confidence is born out of experience. At this point, we
are well seasoned in what we do. We have achieved
levels of expertise and experience and reputations in our respective
(17:21):
fields of work. You know, so a lot of the
feelings that a number of these different types aren't really
manifesting in our work life like they may have when
we were a lot younger. But to your point earlier
GK that you know, they can definitely show up in
other types of relationships and situations. You know, there's always
(17:43):
opportunities to unfortunately feel inadequate in certain settings, depending on
you know, the full scope of everything that's involved in that.
So I think that gets us to this next part
of kind of recognizing the reality that it happens, validating
what ever feelings you have, you know, so that you
can deal with them effectively and just understand that you're
(18:05):
not the only one feeling this way. And I know
a lot of people even as we talk through this
topic who happened to be listening to this podcast, We
appreciate you for listening. You know, you thought you were
the only one that had these particular feelings, especially some
of these now that we've defined six of them, definitely
a lot of and you said seventy to eighty percent
of the people have experienced this, so we're definitely talking
(18:27):
to just about everybody at some point. So you you
know you're not the only one that was feeling this way.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Yeah, to give it just some thoughts on that as well,
I'll share three separate kind of incidents along the way.
For me, especially again this is all earlier, I don't
have those same feelings your thoughts. But my first one
was I used to have this dream that I never
completed a class in college, and I had this thought
(18:57):
that I'm not ready. But now as we put a
term to that imposter syndrome, I think that was what
was coming through my dream was that I'm like, do
I have enough of the information I need to be
validated and what I'm trying to.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Do as a physician.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
And I would say, well, John, you got to realize
you got a degree, you graduated already, so you must
have finished the class, right, you know, so why am
I dreaming this? But but that's what made me, you know,
now understand that as we were going through this topic
about Hey, I bet that's what that was manifesting itself.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
The expert. It's the expert, right, manifesting type deal.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
And then another one would be, you know, am I
a good father? I think, Greg, you were starting to
touch on that, you know, as well as being a parent.
And you know, and I and I say that I
didn't have the experience of having a father figure in
my life, so becoming a father, I've had this struggle
(20:01):
of have I been a good father? Did I do
the best that I could have done with my kids?
And you know, I think I have. You know, I
believe I have. I believe my kids, you know, love
me and respect me and hopefully admire me as well.
So again I believe that that has happened. But those
(20:21):
are the way these thoughts start to come into play.
And as a fraternity member, you know, you sometimes are
having feelings of am I a good bru? Am I
doing what all needs to be done? You know, representing
the fraternity? Or is there something I'm missing or lacking
as relates to that, And therefore, is somebody gonna see
me as you know this this this brother talking about
(20:45):
type deal? He don't know nothing type deal and things
of that nature. But yet our success is through that.
I mean, I've you know, I've been what we call
bossilist or president of our chapter. I've served in different roles.
I'm currently our health and this initiative chair for our
sixth district. So I mean, you know, the successes, the positions,
(21:07):
the accolades, been a Mega Man of the Year two times,
and Superior Service awards. So it's all of those things
that show and recognize that, yes, you are doing and
other people see that, because that's how you get those recognitions.
It's not you bestowing it on yourself, it's others seeing
(21:27):
that and bestowing it upon you and applauding you for
your efforts. So just knowing that, hey, we all are
going to experience things like that as well, and trying
to validate why is that going on? But they don't
recognize that you are having those thoughts, you know, and
concerns as well. So being able to really bring that
(21:49):
up and having this topic today, I think it is
really timely as well.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
Yeah, I think so. I guess I said earlier. I've
seen various times in my life have been all of
those things. I think soloist is probably the most accurate
for me, because I tend to be in my in
my head a lot. But one of the things that
I have found is, you know, I been, I been
doing this. What I do now for this is the
(22:13):
third decade, which is unbelievable. But what I have found
is that people it's flattering, right, it's humbling. People ask me, well,
how do you feel about this? How did you do that?
Like they to have younger folks or people who aren't
as experienced as I am getting my views as they
express their own feelings of imposter syndrome has been sort
(22:38):
of an interesting thing to me earlier in my career,
and even it's true now like most of the spaces
I'm in, i'm you know, is not a lot of
Black men in it, which is you know, interesting in itself.
But I have often found that people of other background,
doesn't matter if it's women, you know, Black women, or
Latinas or even you know, other younger black men explaining
(23:01):
their feelings of imposter syndrome and me being able to reflect,
you know, back to them that I experienced that as well.
But what I had to learn to do is be
more confident in myself, but really saying, at the end
of the day, you just if you have nothing to
offer meaningful to a conversation, right, don't feel pressure to
(23:22):
say anything, right. And I think there's a cultural aspect
to this where I think white men often are the
least afraid to talk, or are often the ones the
first talk, even when they aren't necessarily offering anything new
or different, And so I think we often carry that.
Speaker 5 (23:43):
Yeah, it's like maybe you should'all should.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
Talk a little bit less, right, And I found that
to be a common thing.
Speaker 5 (23:50):
People are just like, I just got to say the
perfect thing.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
No, you know, sometimes you just if you have nothing
to say, uh that is meaningful or valuable to you,
or what you think is valuable to the conversation, it's
okay not to say anything at all. And so just
having being in the place now where people are asking
my views about.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
It, and it shortens the meetings, frankly.
Speaker 5 (24:12):
The meetings exactly.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
It moves things along when there's not all of this
extraneous blah blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Right, what do you think about how social media has
impacted this?
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Now? Any thoughts on that?
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Sure? I can tell you a million different things, but
I'll just start here. Social media has quadrupled by a
million times to a factor of a bazillion, the insane
level in which people view themselves right, physically, the way
people feel they need to promote themselves. It's just created
this this false megaverse of I'm doing incredible things. I'm
(24:54):
living an incredible life. I'm doing so much all the time,
and you you really should be living in the life
that I'm living, because your own life sucks in comparison.
That's what social media has done. And it's created so
much negativity because how are you going to compete?
Speaker 3 (25:12):
Right?
Speaker 1 (25:13):
And so I mean, I mean, it has elevated imposter
syndrome in so many ways, especially for young people who
are already struggling to figure out who they are, where
they fit in, and all of this in this ever
changing world. I'm glad that we just had to deal
with regular technology coming up. We were already adults. It's
(25:34):
kind of like drug use, right. Drug use impacts young
people worse than adults, right, because their brains are fully
formed as adults, and so the damage is different. It's
greater to kids when they get all messed up. So
let's just you know. I mean we see it all
the time, right, things that we never had to consider
twenty years ago. I think from a public health perspective,
(25:58):
the kinds of things that they're researching now right, we
never had to even consider. But they are looking at
both the physical damage that we're seeing to young people
from these devices being in their hands twenty four to seven,
and then bent down looking at them to the psychological
and emotional damage that we're seeing from young people trying
(26:20):
to deal with these unrealistic expectations they're being bombarded with
in social media in these you know, eight second snippets,
these thirty second videos, these you know, all the different
reels and all the different things that is so and
then when you add AI into it now even more
and the more realistic looking stuff that it's just going
(26:42):
to make it more challenging. I think to help people
know how to sort their feelings about what are legitimate
quote unquote inadequacies versus what's manufactured, you know. And these
young people who've never had the opportunity to do and
build confidence through activities because they don't do stuff anymore.
(27:06):
They sit there and they are they're witted to these devices.
They're not even engaging in the social or the physical
activity in many respects like we did, which can create
opportunities to build confidence.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
You know, they're looking for the likes and things of
that nature. And there are actually some studies that exactly,
there's some studies that have shown, especially for black students,
how they're experiencing going back to that racialized imposter syndrome
because they feel like, am I in college? Am I
(27:43):
in med school? Just because of my color?
Speaker 3 (27:46):
You know.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Of course in a society that we're living in currently,
there's a big focus on that now and that's causing
our folks, our black folks, our young black folks to question,
you know, are they in the position that they're in
because of their color versus their aptitude to be their type?
Speaker 3 (28:03):
Deal?
Speaker 2 (28:04):
So we've got to recognize that, right. But all of
that that's going on, and as a result, it can
impact our mental health, brothers. It can you know, cause
feelings of anxiety and depression and even low self esteem.
There have been some questions about is low self esteem
similar to imposter syndrome. Well, we'll say this that imposter
(28:25):
syndrome is probably a component of low self esteem, but
not the not vice verse to that low self esteem
is much broader in what that means and how that
impacts people, whereas again, imposter syndrome tends to be more
specific to you, to your to your school, your your job,
(28:46):
you know, your relationship, not necessarily how that fits in
as a whole as well.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
I got you. That's just instead of that broad coverage.
I'm sorry, go ahead, GK.
Speaker 4 (28:58):
No, no, I was half. We're joking about the dopamine fix,
but not really. I mean that dopamine fix that we
get from accolades and from validation is a driver of
so many different things, right, And I just you know,
when you aren't getting it right, there's a whim which
(29:18):
it has the opposite effect. And so you know, I
think that instant gratification, or that need for acknowledgement or gratification,
I think feeds into this notion of imposter syndrome. And
I think mixed people dig into it just a little
bit more than they might otherwise not And so I
just think, you know, those of us, you know, we
(29:39):
we lead institutions, whether it's a family or organizations or whatever,
we ought to be always challenging, you know, people in
those units to think about what kind of spaces we
are creating for people and allowing them to be their
authentic selves and doesn't always look the same, right, and make.
Speaker 5 (30:02):
Sure that we're encouraging people to do that.
Speaker 4 (30:05):
And it just feels like we're in a moment in
which people feel like they have to do what other
people need them to do. And I think we're most
successful when people can just be themselves and bring their
own unique set of experiences and perspectives to whatever the
situation is, just to make it more complete and great
(30:26):
for everybody.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Totally agree.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
So let's jump over to we've talked about, you know,
the different types. We've talked about our own individual I
guess relationships and experiences with it. Let's talk about how
we get past it, how we overcome it, how we've
done it, how others have done it. You know, let's
focus on some of those tools and strategies that we
(30:51):
can impart to our listeners to help them deal with it,
whether it be in a work setting, of other relationships, etc.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
I think one of the things we know to try
to overcome the feeling of imposter syndrome is, you know,
we got to acknowledge one that we are feeling that
way as well, and by acknowledging it, we then need
to make sure that we focus on the facts.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
The facts are.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
You're in your position for a reason. You have the knowledge,
you have the experience, you have the ability to connect
what needs to be connected for you to be in
that position, or else you would not be in that position.
Take time to celebrate those achievements and stop trying to
figure out all what could I have done better, or what.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
That I missed and things that I nature.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Just enjoy that, Hey, we accomplish this goal for you
Rich it might be we graduated another class. For you Greg,
it might be we finally got them to agree to
these working environments that are going to help benefit our people.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Type deal me.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
It's a matter of just making sure that we are
taking care of individuals. You know, it's best that we
can as well and practice self compassion. Know that, hey,
you're doing the best that you can do. Okay, you're
a worthy, you're validated, you're important, and you are getting
it done. As well. Have a network around you. It's important.
(32:24):
You guys are my networks. You know you guys, I
know if I'm ever feeling you know, down or a
certain way. I just have to reach out to you
guys and my you know, my other crew and things
of that nature. And man, what an uplift there my family,
you know, because I'm up, you know, right right right
(32:45):
right right, and that's real and that's good and that's
what we sometimes need to hear.
Speaker 4 (32:50):
It right right right right exactly exactly, but that's what
we need.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
If you're one who likes to journy, then keep a journal,
you know, write down well, we know the power of
writing down how you're feeling allows you now to release
that in a way that it should no longer be
absorbing you as much as it was without you being
able to let that go. Make thank you notes, you know, awards,
(33:18):
things of that nature that can really be helpful as well.
So those are just some things that I thought of
that can be helpful, you know.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
Along those along those same lines, two words to me
come to mind. Oh, take six songs. Spread love. There's
a way in which, you know, spreading love to others.
It just it's contagious. It actually feels good to encourage
other people and like give them some positive feedback and
(33:47):
and like there's something therapeutic about it for me. Personally
just being kind and thoughtful to forward someone else. And
you know, so encouraging people is another big element to me.
Speaker 5 (34:00):
It helps us all.
Speaker 4 (34:01):
And of course it goes with having a crew around
or not, or random people being nice.
Speaker 5 (34:07):
You know, it's my grandfather's say, it's nice to be nice.
Speaker 4 (34:10):
Yeah, and it does have this multiply multiplier effect.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Yeah, it definitely does.
Speaker 3 (34:16):
You know.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
I was thinking about what you were saying, John, about
the journaling thing, and I just had a technological hack
for that for those of us just excludes you, John,
for those of us with with with iPhones, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
You inferior folks, go ahead, go ahead, right.
Speaker 6 (34:34):
It's the green guy, right right, the one jacking up
our messages. Right, everything would be blue. But no, there's
a journal app built into the iPhone. So it's a
real convenient thing.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Mindset, It pops up, It has recommendations like you know,
for based on the things that I did or experienced
over that day. You know, you might want to write
about this to talk about that. That also speaks to
how much they invade our privacy, right, But that's a
whole other conversation.
Speaker 3 (35:05):
Is that voice and written capabilities? Rich?
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Yeah, Yeah, Okay, yeah, but let's let's uh, but what
what you were talking about, John, focusing on the facts,
challenging negative self talk. You know, I think it's something
that people have to you know, I talk about it
a lot. You know the importance of how you say
to yourself, what you say to yourself about yourself, right.
You know, it's important to speak to yourself properly about yourself.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Right.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
You know you're not perfect. We all make mistakes, but
beating yourself up tends to only cause damage, right, it
never does anything positive. It's really important to use affirmations
to speak positively about yourself and reframe those negative things.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
You know.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Of course, we're all gonna feel unsure in different settings, right,
you know, new situations, new learning opportunity, these new interactions
with new people. There's all kinds of new.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Right.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
But you know, you might not have done this before,
but you've done other things before, and you've had successes
before when you've done something new, and so there's all
kinds of experiences you can draw on in places where
you can pull for confidence, you know, in new situations,
So reflect on your different accomplishment. So, you know, this
notion of reflecting on your own data, your personal data,
(36:27):
looking back through your personal history, your accomplishments, the results.
All of those things change the mindset. I can remember
a situation when I was a young lawyer and it
was me against I'm representing the plaintiffs. So it's usually
just one lawyer versus a gang of lawyers on the
other side. Right, There'll be eight defense attorneys in the room.
(36:48):
Most of them don't have anything to do. They just
stand there, but you know, they try to intimidate, like
numbers are gonna do something. And so, you know, I
had to rely in this situation where this one when
the lawyer tried to intimidate me, you know, he tried
to punk me in front of the judge. And so
when the judge left the room, I had to remind
him that, you know, A, we had the law on
(37:09):
our side, and B I was a whole lot bigger
than him, and if he ever tried, if he ever
did something like that again, when I saw him on
the street, I was gonna beat his ass. I said it,
just like.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
That, completely off the record, right.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Well, the judge, the judge had left the room to
give us a dance to yeah, to tell, right, And
so I ended up, you know, we ended up being successful.
But the you know, the physical the confidence that I've
had from being in physically intimidating situations made me feel
a lot more comfortable because I knew we were right.
(37:46):
But you're not gonna try and punk me in front
of his judge either, you know. So you know, it's
being able to draw on those past experiences to bolster
your confidence when you're dealing with your own feelings of inadequacy.
Speaker 4 (38:01):
Yeah, sometimes you got to take some risks, right, and
you know, hopefully you're being calculated in them, but sometimes
you just have to push beyond your own comfort zone
and just take a chance. And I have found once
you start taking that chance, it becomes easier to do,
you know, the next times. You know, the nervousness, the
(38:22):
self consciousness, to me, those are just signs that we're
human beings and we actually care about the way in
which we're going to present ourselves or the way that
we show up. And that's okay, right, and just you know,
sometimes it just requires an extra push to ourselves and
to move beyond that comfort zone. Sometimes it's physical all
(38:43):
the way, sometimes it's emotional, sometimes it's mental.
Speaker 5 (38:46):
Yeah, sometimes it's more work on something than we really
want to do.
Speaker 4 (38:50):
So it's just you know, pushing ourselves beyond that comfort
zone to me is critical.
Speaker 3 (38:57):
Yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
I mean we have to be and passionate with ourselves.
And you said it before, Rich that or think great
Man said that we have to keep ourselves in a
positive energy.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
If we keep.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Ourselves in a negative energy, it's just going to continue
to foster that same negative aspects of thoughts and feelings
about things. So speak positive about yourself. Know that you
are there for a reason. Know that you've accomplished things
because of all that you've experienced and learned throughout the
way as well. And sometimes we may need outside help
(39:31):
for that, so you know it's okay to seek therapy.
Therapy is part of your wellness. So you know, in
our in our community, we'll say our in the black community,
sometimes seeking help is looked upon as being weak or
you know what's wrong with you type deal. But I
want us to definitely let our listeners know that that's
(39:51):
not the case. By seeking help show strength. It shows
that you want to be better, but recognizing that you
are only you as well, and that's sometimes we need
that outside assistance to help us get to a better
place too, So if need be, ask people around whom
they see. You can also check different websites, especially like
(40:11):
the National Medical Association if you're looking for a minority
reference in different fields of study. The local or state
health departments or licensing organizations can also be of some
benefit for you as well. But seek therapy if it's
just not able to move forward. You know, have your peers,
have your circle around you that you again can have
(40:35):
those open and transparent conversations with, because they're the ones
that are going to also be able to help keep
you uplifted through those times of feeling like you're just
not adequate or am I really where I need to
be in this position and everything, So we encourage that
as well.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
I'm gonna just take one, I'm gonna take you back
real quick, one step and say, you know, think about
how you might define success, think about redefining it and
not focusing so much on these notions of perfection and
still focus on progress. And when focusing on it meaning
celebrating the baby steps, you know, no not And when
(41:17):
I say celebrating the baby steps, I don't mean that
when your child is graduating from from kindergarten that you
should go rent a limo and throw a party.
Speaker 3 (41:25):
No, why not?
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Those are basic expectations, all right, yeah, celebrate it all right,
good job, but don't be out there renting no limo
and throwing no parties for that saying.
Speaker 4 (41:40):
Else, don't put pressure on yourself to do it right,
right right, exactly right right.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
That's up.
Speaker 3 (41:45):
You know.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
Let's reduce anxiety and improve self esteemed by accepting that
all progress is good progress, and every every small step forward,
every small step forward, is still a good thing. And
so if we can strength, if we can strength together,
there's several small steps moving forward. Now we've got something
bigger to celebrate because we're you know, and so it's
(42:06):
this notion of just let's take progress over perfection. Let's
continually focus on getting a little better, doing a little
bit more, keeping moving forward in that same direction, but
not focusing on we've got to do it all, it's
got to be incredible. No, it's just baby steps and
we keep getting a little better each stay.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
You know.
Speaker 4 (42:26):
One of the sort of underlying themes of imposter syndrome
that we haven't sort of said explicitly, but I hear
it all the time, particularly from folks who are sort
of high achievers or like really ambitious people. And it's
this notion that I don't want to look or sound stupid, right,
(42:48):
that that is such a driver of imposter syndrome to me.
It's like, you don't want to look or sound stupid,
That's it. And it's like a straight jacket that folks
put on themselves. And I just try to encourage myself
and encourage others. Again, it's going to require a little
bit of courage, it's going to require a little bit
of practice.
Speaker 5 (43:08):
But get in the habit.
Speaker 4 (43:09):
Of moving beyond this notionn't of you just got to
say the right thing at the right time, you know,
like this somehow.
Speaker 5 (43:16):
It's intrinsically within you to say it right.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
But take this sounds like they're saying it sounds like
you're saying, be comfortable with saying something stupid every now and.
Speaker 4 (43:28):
Then exactly, or or being wrong right or failing right,
all those things.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
And I think we had to put it out there too,
that we recognize that for us, the folks of color,
black folks, that that's even magnified.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
Even more tipe of deal.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
So we have to be able to be wrong, be okay,
just take it as another opportunity for us to learn
and grow from it. Right, So, just because you made
a mistake, or in your mind you made a missa
take for others, they might have seen that as an accomplishment,
So us an opportunity, right exactly.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
Don't tell on yourself and things.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
Just keep it going and say that that was part
of how it was supposed to have been said or done,
and then let them think about it.
Speaker 3 (44:18):
They think about it, be like, hmm, that one.
Speaker 4 (44:23):
It's part of the genius of being black, really is
this ability to improvise. And I think you know it
sort of bumps up against this notion of you got
to say the right thing and be perfect. But you know,
you know, the great musicians of our time, the great
athletes of our time, they were great not because of
(44:46):
some perfect way of doing it, because they improvised or
like they decided I'm gonna do it this way. I
think Miles David said something about there's no wrong note, right, Yes,
you play next something along the slides right, yes, So
that I would argue our genius, but that requires you
(45:06):
to be afraid.
Speaker 5 (45:08):
I mean, don't be afraid to make some mistakes.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
Learn from failure, right. Everybody always talks about the quote
unquote successful people always talking about how much they learned
from their failures, how important failing was, you know, and
you know.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
That said that as well. You know you have to
fail in order to succeed, right exactly.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
Yeah, you know I got cut to did not become
a superstar. So I know.
Speaker 3 (45:40):
You are superstar, my brother.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
You just wasn't It wasn't It wasn't my mistake, wasn't
nothing for me to learn.
Speaker 7 (45:48):
It was their's the natural genius, that is it.
Speaker 3 (46:00):
Uh huh, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
Rich Now, I was just going to say this whole thing,
you know, this notion of embracing imperfection, this acceptance of
the reality of who and what we are as imperfect beings, right,
who are going to make mistakes from time to time,
and you know, don't let that hinder your forward progress.
Don't let that prevent you from being bold and taking
(46:23):
those steps, taking those risks. As Greg mentioned earlier.
Speaker 4 (46:27):
Yeah, well, this has been hopefully an enlightening conversation for
our audience. I certainly enjoyed it. I just think when
we think of imposter syndrome. It really is a thing
that exists, and you know people are studying it now,
seventy eighty percent of the population at some point experiencing it.
(46:50):
Is you can't get more real than that, and suggests
to me that you're not alone and you're not the
only one feeling that way. I think what we have
said here is that knowing your type helps you spot
the traps progress and support and compassion can quiet our
inner critic. And so you know, we want to make
(47:11):
sure that we are all doing what we can to
support each other and making sure that a what type
yourself you might be able to relate to and what
helps you push through it. And then we want and
to invite our listeners to encourage the sharing of their
stories or reflections or strategies with others, either through our
(47:34):
own system here or even if you decide to do
it in your own private or personal life. And so
I think this is a good conversation and a good
place to end the topic. But we'll be coming back
in a couple of weeks with our next conversation, and
we're so happy that our listeners are joined in and
(47:55):
look forward to many more conversations in the future. And
we really, really really enjoy your feedback, your comments or questions,
and you can do it on social media, or you
can do it via email, or you can call some
of y'all know us, call it text us, but that
feedback for us is critically important.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
Yeah, especially now you can hear Greg the whole way through.
He gotta He's got a new mic. Everybody. He sounds good,
Thank you, Rich He sounds great again, Yes, sir, he
sounds good, doesn't.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
He outstanded, Bros. Outstanding, Thank you.
Speaker 5 (48:36):
Brother is always good.
Speaker 3 (48:38):
Thank you, Boks
Brought to you by Halvard Traveler.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Welcome back to our sixth episode of Raw and Refined
The Gentleman's Hour. This is where we have three men,
middle aged black males that have known each other for
almost forty years. We are sharing our experiences, our life,
our knowledge with you and these are typical conversations that
(00:29):
we have that we thought that could help others, especially
black males. We appreciate those that have been listening to
our first five episodes and for those that are new,
we hope you look forward to the following episodes coming
up as well. Again, please like, share, comment, and we'll
(00:51):
keep this thing Roland. We always like to start our
hour off with a toast, and this time we're gonna
keep it simple. We're doing a tall glass of water.
There are different ways you can get that water. Mine
is filtered with ice, but it is raw and refined.
(01:16):
A toast to my brothers.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Well, mine has a little lemon in it, some lemon juice,
and also has a little salt in it, and it
has a little bit of organic stevia in there, so
it's kind of like a it's kind of like a
natural gatorade.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
There you go.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
Well, mine is sparkling water and it's waterlo and it's
tropical fruit. I've become this fan of the sparkling waters
and so this is this is my favorite one.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Okay, all right, I'll stay am. I'm glad that we have.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Well there you go, nice check them out, check them out,
showing off his new mic, his new mic. Right, Oh
my goodness. All right, Well, let me just quickly introduce
each of us. We have Rich rich as an attorney
(02:18):
as well as the university program dean for the College
or Criminal Justice. We have Greg he is a community
activist and union president. And we have myself, John, I'm
a physician and physician executive. We hope that this topic
today will be insightful and we're looking forward to the
(02:41):
different conversations that we're going to have surrounding imposter syndrome.
We're going to talk about imposter syndrome today. Poster syndrome
actually appears to affect each of us, or at least
about seventy to eighty percent of the population, which I
think was remarkable. At some point in our lives, we
(03:05):
typically think of imposter syndrome as it relates to our
working environment or educational endeavors. But it can also even
flow into relationships as well as how we even think
of ourselves when it comes to racial identity. Definition of
imposter syndrome is that it's a persistent internal feeling of
(03:30):
self doubt or feeling like we are fraud and what
or who we are despite all of the success that
we have been able to attain as a result of
what we do.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
This is a very.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Common topic, so we're excited about having this conversation today
and we'll touch upon how society and cultural pressures can
affect our feelings as it relates to imposter syndrome, but
as we do, we are going to focus a little
bit more on how this affects black males specifically as well.
(04:06):
We're going to talk about the five types of imposter syndrome,
and we're going to try to share where we think
we may fit in one of those types or at
times where or when we may have felt that we
were in that imposter phenomenon, and then hopefully we'll be
able to offer some ways of healing, growth and realizing
(04:28):
that it's okay to have the feeling, but we're going
to have to understand and recognize the feeling for us
to be able to grow and be better from it.
So let's get started. GK, you want to explain to
us the live types.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
Yeah, so you've started us out. Well, you know, I
think as we've looked at this, there's sort of five
or six sort of base types of imposter syndrome that
we've uncovered, and so just quickly kind of going through
those five or six. The first one, in no particular order,
is the superhuman and what this means and what is
(05:09):
characterized by is feelings of pressure to succeed in every
domain of life. That's not just career, but that's also
family and social life. This sort of superhuman type connects
success to how hard they work and productivity, and folks
(05:31):
who deal with this are often experiencing burnout or overworking
just trying to meet the impossible expectations. Thus the superhuman
sort of The second type that's been identified is the
person who believes that asking for help is a weakness,
(05:51):
may struggle to delegate or collaborate with others, suffers silently
with a feeling of being overwhelmed.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Don't you know that I'm a solo list.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Rock Kim.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
So that's sort of the second type of imposter syndrome.
The third one, if you will, is referred to as
the expert, and that's the person who's always seeking more
knowledge or training to feel unquote unquote qualified, and that
this person feels like a fraud unless they know everything
(06:28):
about everything, and often hesitates to speak up in meetings
or in conversations or take action without the perfect preparation. Again,
that's the expert what we're calling the third type. And
then there is the natural genius who believes that success
(06:50):
should just be effortless and that it should just come naturally.
But this person struggles a lot when things don't come
easily and that it isn't effortless and interprets difficulty as
a type of failure. Again, this is the expert type.
(07:11):
And then we have the perfectionist who sets unrealistically high
standards and focuses on flaws and not wins and really
never feel satisfied with their performance and avoids celebrating achievements
due to constant self critique. And so that's kind of
(07:34):
the last of those that group of types of imposter
syndrome that we've sort of identified. But I think John,
you also have discovered another type.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Yeah, Well, we've know and I believe this actually would
incorporate all of those five types within a we'll say
subcategory of pasta syndrome, and that's racial imposter syndrome. And
how that's defined is that it is where people who
(08:06):
may identify with a certain race or culture may not
feel a part of that race or culture. They can't
identify with what society may say, Hey, you're a black male,
why aren't you acting like a black male? And therefore,
you know, or you may hear the conversation why you
(08:28):
always sound in white? You know's what's that about?
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Aren't you know?
Speaker 2 (08:32):
You don't identify with your culture and everything. You don't
listen to rap, you don't listen to hip hop?
Speaker 3 (08:38):
You know? Who are you? Type deal?
Speaker 2 (08:40):
And that can cause people to feel like, man, am
i am I black?
Speaker 3 (08:45):
You know?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Or is there something wrong with me as to why
I'm not doing this, that or the other. So those
are some things that can impact us specifically as well,
and it could be in all races and cultures as
it relates to that. So I'm sure we'll get a
little bit more into that as we go on with
our conversation.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
Yeah, I imagine even questions around sexual orientation can be
viewed through these lens as well.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
I'd have to agree with you Greg on that as well.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
This is cool, this this list is. It's interesting, you
know that I can at different points in my life
I could see different of these you know types, you know,
playing out in some ways in my life. I think
when I was in college, definitely there were there were
(09:38):
some of this perfectionist thing, you know, you would think,
you know, I'm sure Greg and John looked at this
list and said, well, of course he picked the natural genius.
And I was like, no, because because Greg, But as
you look at the things that were tied to with
the characteristics, you know, believes success should be f for
(10:00):
less struggles deeply when things don't come easily internalize as
difficulty as failure. Those aren't things that I've ever done,
you know, And so my belief in my genius is
different from being the natural genius in this context. I
think that the superhuman at some points, definitely, but at
other points the perfection is setting the unrealistically high standards,
(10:24):
focusing on flaws not wins. You know, I've definitely, at
different points along the way, have done that. Never the expert,
you know, I've witnessed that, seeing people who have been
like that, that kind of that frozen in place, scared
to do because you know, I don't know if I
know enough, you know, a thousand percent more than me
(10:46):
on this subject, just you know, spending five minutes with you,
so you know, you should be able to pull the
trigger and make that decision. But you know, so it's
really interesting to see it it play out in real life,
you know, and to see how easy it is for
people to get caught up in these feelings and how
much they can let it control themselves, you know, and
(11:08):
how it can lead to you know, so much of
what we end up talking about, unfortunately ends up you know,
talking about the potential damages that we can do to
ourselves living life. But that's just the reality, right And
that's kind of what we're talking about as things to
avoid it because that's stress to burnout, hiding struggles are
all things that you know, superhumans do to themselves when
(11:31):
they try to do it all, when they try to
take on all the pressure, when they try to be
the one for the family. You know, I'm going to be,
you know, being the matriarch, being the patriarch, being the whoever,
for everybody is draining of one's energy without a doubt,
so it's easy to fall victim of your own I
guess internal struggles trying to deal with this being the
(11:54):
superhuman or being the perfectionist.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
Now I agree with the on that rich.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
I think that with most of us, and this is
probably why it's seen in about seventy to eighty percent
of the population, is that when we're starting off in
our careers, you have a feeling of do I know
enough you know to be able to be a part
of the conversation with folks who we identify as they've
(12:20):
been here for a long time?
Speaker 3 (12:22):
What am I? You know? What do I know? You know?
Speaker 2 (12:25):
How can I say this? And they might shoot me
down and think of me as you know, why did
we hire you type deal?
Speaker 3 (12:32):
You know?
Speaker 2 (12:32):
And why did you say that? So I can definitely say,
you know earlier in my career, and actually, as I'm
having this conversation, I'm also thinking about it even early
as joining the fraternity, and that may be something you know,
we can touch upon as it relates to that too,
as to your knowledge and being able to feel comfortable,
you know, speaking up with with the with the big
(12:55):
brothers in the room type deal about topics and situations.
But as a physician, yeah, you know, one thing I've
experienced is I fit into that soloist aspect and maybe
even some.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Of that expert aspect as well.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
I don't know if part of that is related to
being an only child coming up and just you know,
feeling like, hey, I have to be the best, you know,
I have to know what's going on in any situation,
especially before I can feel comfortable speaking on any situation
because again, not wanting to be seen as as less
(13:33):
then and then usually I'm the only one or a
few of color that's in the room, especially in the
role as a physician executive, where you have to feel like, well,
wait a minute, I wonder you know, if I say this,
are they going to look at me like what are
you talking about? You know, where did that come from?
(13:53):
Type deal versus knowing and recognizing that I have that background,
I have that educate, I have that experience and what
I share is valid. And that's the point that we'll
get to as we continue to have this conversation, is
that we have to get beyond that fear to realize
(14:14):
you do have the ability to say and perform in
a way that you have already experienced and learned about
how to do your role as well. If we don't,
it can definitely impact our overall mental health, which can
then impact our physical health and even maybe other relationships
(14:35):
and things like that that come into play as well.
So as that thought of soloist and expert can definitely see,
especially again early in my career, how to fit in,
but I've since grown from that as well, which is
the whole point of that. In this conversation, what about you, Greg,
what have you had any thoughts?
Speaker 4 (14:55):
Yep, No, I think both of you nailed it. There's
a way in which, at different times we had different
variations of the various types, and that it's constantly shifting.
I think also, I think that you know what I
love about this topic is that there's a way in
which I've been most familiar, made most familiar with the
(15:18):
concept of imposter syndrome in sort of your professional life
or your career, but that it's bigger than just that, right,
that it can show up in the dynamics in your
relationships with people and family dynamics and other sort of
social contexts. So it's a it's a rich subject, not
(15:39):
rich holloway, but a rich subject.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
But it's genius. Right.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
But when I was younger, you know, first starting out,
and you know, in the work that I do, oh,
the soloist was definitely a big part of how I
saw myself. I think, you know, collaboration though was not
really hard for me. It's not hard for me now,
butially that asking for help is weakness was definitely something
(16:10):
that has you know, impacted me more back then. You know,
so as you evolve in your career, you get more
experiencing around more people, those kinds of fears are lessened.
Speaker 5 (16:21):
But you know, when you're a parent.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
You know, sometimes you're always sure about the decisions that
you make and the impact of them, until you know
the fruit is born many years later.
Speaker 5 (16:32):
Right.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
So it's just an interesting way of thinking about how
we are our authentic selves and how we are able
to bring our best selves to whatever situation we're in,
whether it's family or other personal relationships or in work,
and so you know, so yeah, I think at different
(16:53):
times I've had different traits of all of these things
we've mentioned, and it shifts all the time.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
It does because I think at this point I think
I can I feel comfortable speaking for the three of
us and saying that in terms of our career, the
confidence is born out of experience. At this point, we
are well seasoned in what we do. We have achieved
levels of expertise and experience and reputations in our respective
(17:21):
fields of work. You know, so a lot of the
feelings that a number of these different types aren't really
manifesting in our work life like they may have when
we were a lot younger. But to your point earlier
GK that you know, they can definitely show up in
other types of relationships and situations. You know, there's always
(17:43):
opportunities to unfortunately feel inadequate in certain settings, depending on
you know, the full scope of everything that's involved in that.
So I think that gets us to this next part
of kind of recognizing the reality that it happens, validating
what ever feelings you have, you know, so that you
can deal with them effectively and just understand that you're
(18:05):
not the only one feeling this way. And I know
a lot of people even as we talk through this
topic who happened to be listening to this podcast, We
appreciate you for listening. You know, you thought you were
the only one that had these particular feelings, especially some
of these now that we've defined six of them, definitely
a lot of and you said seventy to eighty percent
of the people have experienced this, so we're definitely talking
(18:27):
to just about everybody at some point. So you you
know you're not the only one that was feeling this way.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Yeah, to give it just some thoughts on that as well,
I'll share three separate kind of incidents along the way.
For me, especially again this is all earlier, I don't
have those same feelings your thoughts. But my first one
was I used to have this dream that I never
completed a class in college, and I had this thought
(18:57):
that I'm not ready. But now as we put a
term to that imposter syndrome, I think that was what
was coming through my dream was that I'm like, do
I have enough of the information I need to be
validated and what I'm trying to.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Do as a physician.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
And I would say, well, John, you got to realize
you got a degree, you graduated already, so you must
have finished the class, right, you know, so why am
I dreaming this? But but that's what made me, you know,
now understand that as we were going through this topic
about Hey, I bet that's what that was manifesting itself.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
The expert. It's the expert, right, manifesting type deal.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
And then another one would be, you know, am I
a good father? I think, Greg, you were starting to
touch on that, you know, as well as being a parent.
And you know, and I and I say that I
didn't have the experience of having a father figure in
my life, so becoming a father, I've had this struggle
(20:01):
of have I been a good father? Did I do
the best that I could have done with my kids?
And you know, I think I have. You know, I
believe I have. I believe my kids, you know, love
me and respect me and hopefully admire me as well.
So again I believe that that has happened. But those
(20:21):
are the way these thoughts start to come into play.
And as a fraternity member, you know, you sometimes are
having feelings of am I a good bru? Am I
doing what all needs to be done? You know, representing
the fraternity? Or is there something I'm missing or lacking
as relates to that, And therefore, is somebody gonna see
me as you know this this this brother talking about
(20:45):
type deal? He don't know nothing type deal and things
of that nature. But yet our success is through that.
I mean, I've you know, I've been what we call
bossilist or president of our chapter. I've served in different roles.
I'm currently our health and this initiative chair for our
sixth district. So I mean, you know, the successes, the positions,
(21:07):
the accolades, been a Mega Man of the Year two times,
and Superior Service awards. So it's all of those things
that show and recognize that, yes, you are doing and
other people see that, because that's how you get those recognitions.
It's not you bestowing it on yourself, it's others seeing
(21:27):
that and bestowing it upon you and applauding you for
your efforts. So just knowing that, hey, we all are
going to experience things like that as well, and trying
to validate why is that going on? But they don't
recognize that you are having those thoughts, you know, and
concerns as well. So being able to really bring that
(21:49):
up and having this topic today, I think it is
really timely as well.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
Yeah, I think so. I guess I said earlier. I've
seen various times in my life have been all of
those things. I think soloist is probably the most accurate
for me, because I tend to be in my in
my head a lot. But one of the things that
I have found is, you know, I been, I been
doing this. What I do now for this is the
(22:13):
third decade, which is unbelievable. But what I have found
is that people it's flattering, right, it's humbling. People ask me, well,
how do you feel about this? How did you do that?
Like they to have younger folks or people who aren't
as experienced as I am getting my views as they
express their own feelings of imposter syndrome has been sort
(22:38):
of an interesting thing to me earlier in my career,
and even it's true now like most of the spaces
I'm in, i'm you know, is not a lot of
Black men in it, which is you know, interesting in itself.
But I have often found that people of other background,
doesn't matter if it's women, you know, Black women, or
Latinas or even you know, other younger black men explaining
(23:01):
their feelings of imposter syndrome and me being able to reflect,
you know, back to them that I experienced that as well.
But what I had to learn to do is be
more confident in myself, but really saying, at the end
of the day, you just if you have nothing to
offer meaningful to a conversation, right, don't feel pressure to
(23:22):
say anything, right. And I think there's a cultural aspect
to this where I think white men often are the
least afraid to talk, or are often the ones the
first talk, even when they aren't necessarily offering anything new
or different, And so I think we often carry that.
Speaker 5 (23:43):
Yeah, it's like maybe you should'all should.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
Talk a little bit less, right, And I found that
to be a common thing.
Speaker 5 (23:50):
People are just like, I just got to say the
perfect thing.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
No, you know, sometimes you just if you have nothing
to say, uh that is meaningful or valuable to you,
or what you think is valuable to the conversation, it's
okay not to say anything at all. And so just
having being in the place now where people are asking
my views about.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
It, and it shortens the meetings, frankly.
Speaker 5 (24:12):
The meetings exactly.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
It moves things along when there's not all of this
extraneous blah blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Right, what do you think about how social media has
impacted this?
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Now? Any thoughts on that?
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Sure? I can tell you a million different things, but
I'll just start here. Social media has quadrupled by a
million times to a factor of a bazillion, the insane
level in which people view themselves right, physically, the way
people feel they need to promote themselves. It's just created
this this false megaverse of I'm doing incredible things. I'm
(24:54):
living an incredible life. I'm doing so much all the time,
and you you really should be living in the life
that I'm living, because your own life sucks in comparison.
That's what social media has done. And it's created so
much negativity because how are you going to compete?
Speaker 3 (25:12):
Right?
Speaker 1 (25:13):
And so I mean, I mean, it has elevated imposter
syndrome in so many ways, especially for young people who
are already struggling to figure out who they are, where
they fit in, and all of this in this ever
changing world. I'm glad that we just had to deal
with regular technology coming up. We were already adults. It's
(25:34):
kind of like drug use, right. Drug use impacts young
people worse than adults, right, because their brains are fully
formed as adults, and so the damage is different. It's
greater to kids when they get all messed up. So
let's just you know. I mean we see it all
the time, right, things that we never had to consider
twenty years ago. I think from a public health perspective,
(25:58):
the kinds of things that they're researching now right, we
never had to even consider. But they are looking at
both the physical damage that we're seeing to young people
from these devices being in their hands twenty four to seven,
and then bent down looking at them to the psychological
and emotional damage that we're seeing from young people trying
(26:20):
to deal with these unrealistic expectations they're being bombarded with
in social media in these you know, eight second snippets,
these thirty second videos, these you know, all the different
reels and all the different things that is so and
then when you add AI into it now even more
and the more realistic looking stuff that it's just going
(26:42):
to make it more challenging. I think to help people
know how to sort their feelings about what are legitimate
quote unquote inadequacies versus what's manufactured, you know. And these
young people who've never had the opportunity to do and
build confidence through activities because they don't do stuff anymore.
(27:06):
They sit there and they are they're witted to these devices.
They're not even engaging in the social or the physical
activity in many respects like we did, which can create
opportunities to build confidence.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
You know, they're looking for the likes and things of
that nature. And there are actually some studies that exactly,
there's some studies that have shown, especially for black students,
how they're experiencing going back to that racialized imposter syndrome
because they feel like, am I in college? Am I
(27:43):
in med school? Just because of my color?
Speaker 3 (27:46):
You know.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Of course in a society that we're living in currently,
there's a big focus on that now and that's causing
our folks, our black folks, our young black folks to question,
you know, are they in the position that they're in
because of their color versus their aptitude to be their type?
Speaker 3 (28:03):
Deal?
Speaker 2 (28:04):
So we've got to recognize that, right. But all of
that that's going on, and as a result, it can
impact our mental health, brothers. It can you know, cause
feelings of anxiety and depression and even low self esteem.
There have been some questions about is low self esteem
similar to imposter syndrome. Well, we'll say this that imposter
(28:25):
syndrome is probably a component of low self esteem, but
not the not vice verse to that low self esteem
is much broader in what that means and how that
impacts people, whereas again, imposter syndrome tends to be more
specific to you, to your to your school, your your job,
(28:46):
you know, your relationship, not necessarily how that fits in
as a whole as well.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
I got you. That's just instead of that broad coverage.
I'm sorry, go ahead, GK.
Speaker 4 (28:58):
No, no, I was half. We're joking about the dopamine fix,
but not really. I mean that dopamine fix that we
get from accolades and from validation is a driver of
so many different things, right, And I just you know,
when you aren't getting it right, there's a whim which
(29:18):
it has the opposite effect. And so you know, I
think that instant gratification, or that need for acknowledgement or gratification,
I think feeds into this notion of imposter syndrome. And
I think mixed people dig into it just a little
bit more than they might otherwise not And so I
just think, you know, those of us, you know, we
(29:39):
we lead institutions, whether it's a family or organizations or whatever,
we ought to be always challenging, you know, people in
those units to think about what kind of spaces we
are creating for people and allowing them to be their
authentic selves and doesn't always look the same, right, and make.
Speaker 5 (30:02):
Sure that we're encouraging people to do that.
Speaker 4 (30:05):
And it just feels like we're in a moment in
which people feel like they have to do what other
people need them to do. And I think we're most
successful when people can just be themselves and bring their
own unique set of experiences and perspectives to whatever the
situation is, just to make it more complete and great
(30:26):
for everybody.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Totally agree.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
So let's jump over to we've talked about, you know,
the different types. We've talked about our own individual I
guess relationships and experiences with it. Let's talk about how
we get past it, how we overcome it, how we've
done it, how others have done it. You know, let's
focus on some of those tools and strategies that we
(30:51):
can impart to our listeners to help them deal with it,
whether it be in a work setting, of other relationships, etc.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
I think one of the things we know to try
to overcome the feeling of imposter syndrome is, you know,
we got to acknowledge one that we are feeling that
way as well, and by acknowledging it, we then need
to make sure that we focus on the facts.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
The facts are.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
You're in your position for a reason. You have the knowledge,
you have the experience, you have the ability to connect
what needs to be connected for you to be in
that position, or else you would not be in that position.
Take time to celebrate those achievements and stop trying to
figure out all what could I have done better, or what.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
That I missed and things that I nature.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Just enjoy that, Hey, we accomplish this goal for you
Rich it might be we graduated another class. For you Greg,
it might be we finally got them to agree to
these working environments that are going to help benefit our people.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Type deal me.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
It's a matter of just making sure that we are
taking care of individuals. You know, it's best that we
can as well and practice self compassion. Know that, hey,
you're doing the best that you can do. Okay, you're
a worthy, you're validated, you're important, and you are getting
it done. As well. Have a network around you. It's important.
(32:24):
You guys are my networks. You know you guys, I
know if I'm ever feeling you know, down or a
certain way. I just have to reach out to you
guys and my you know, my other crew and things
of that nature. And man, what an uplift there my family,
you know, because I'm up, you know, right right right
(32:45):
right right, and that's real and that's good and that's
what we sometimes need to hear.
Speaker 4 (32:50):
It right right right right exactly exactly, but that's what
we need.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
If you're one who likes to journy, then keep a journal,
you know, write down well, we know the power of
writing down how you're feeling allows you now to release
that in a way that it should no longer be
absorbing you as much as it was without you being
able to let that go. Make thank you notes, you know, awards,
(33:18):
things of that nature that can really be helpful as well.
So those are just some things that I thought of
that can be helpful, you know.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
Along those along those same lines, two words to me
come to mind. Oh, take six songs. Spread love. There's
a way in which, you know, spreading love to others.
It just it's contagious. It actually feels good to encourage
other people and like give them some positive feedback and
(33:47):
and like there's something therapeutic about it for me. Personally
just being kind and thoughtful to forward someone else. And
you know, so encouraging people is another big element to me.
Speaker 5 (34:00):
It helps us all.
Speaker 4 (34:01):
And of course it goes with having a crew around
or not, or random people being nice.
Speaker 5 (34:07):
You know, it's my grandfather's say, it's nice to be nice.
Speaker 4 (34:10):
Yeah, and it does have this multiply multiplier effect.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Yeah, it definitely does.
Speaker 3 (34:16):
You know.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
I was thinking about what you were saying, John, about
the journaling thing, and I just had a technological hack
for that for those of us just excludes you, John,
for those of us with with with iPhones, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
You inferior folks, go ahead, go ahead, right.
Speaker 6 (34:34):
It's the green guy, right right, the one jacking up
our messages. Right, everything would be blue. But no, there's
a journal app built into the iPhone. So it's a
real convenient thing.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Mindset, It pops up, It has recommendations like you know,
for based on the things that I did or experienced
over that day. You know, you might want to write
about this to talk about that. That also speaks to
how much they invade our privacy, right, But that's a
whole other conversation.
Speaker 3 (35:05):
Is that voice and written capabilities? Rich?
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Yeah, Yeah, Okay, yeah, but let's let's uh, but what
what you were talking about, John, focusing on the facts,
challenging negative self talk. You know, I think it's something
that people have to you know, I talk about it
a lot. You know the importance of how you say
to yourself, what you say to yourself about yourself, right.
You know, it's important to speak to yourself properly about yourself.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Right.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
You know you're not perfect. We all make mistakes, but
beating yourself up tends to only cause damage, right, it
never does anything positive. It's really important to use affirmations
to speak positively about yourself and reframe those negative things.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
You know.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Of course, we're all gonna feel unsure in different settings, right,
you know, new situations, new learning opportunity, these new interactions
with new people. There's all kinds of new.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Right.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
But you know, you might not have done this before,
but you've done other things before, and you've had successes
before when you've done something new, and so there's all
kinds of experiences you can draw on in places where
you can pull for confidence, you know, in new situations,
So reflect on your different accomplishment. So, you know, this
notion of reflecting on your own data, your personal data,
(36:27):
looking back through your personal history, your accomplishments, the results.
All of those things change the mindset. I can remember
a situation when I was a young lawyer and it
was me against I'm representing the plaintiffs. So it's usually
just one lawyer versus a gang of lawyers on the
other side. Right, There'll be eight defense attorneys in the room.
(36:48):
Most of them don't have anything to do. They just
stand there, but you know, they try to intimidate, like
numbers are gonna do something. And so, you know, I
had to rely in this situation where this one when
the lawyer tried to intimidate me, you know, he tried
to punk me in front of the judge. And so
when the judge left the room, I had to remind
him that, you know, A, we had the law on
(37:09):
our side, and B I was a whole lot bigger
than him, and if he ever tried, if he ever
did something like that again, when I saw him on
the street, I was gonna beat his ass. I said it,
just like.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
That, completely off the record, right.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Well, the judge, the judge had left the room to
give us a dance to yeah, to tell, right, And
so I ended up, you know, we ended up being successful.
But the you know, the physical the confidence that I've
had from being in physically intimidating situations made me feel
a lot more comfortable because I knew we were right.
(37:46):
But you're not gonna try and punk me in front
of his judge either, you know. So you know, it's
being able to draw on those past experiences to bolster
your confidence when you're dealing with your own feelings of inadequacy.
Speaker 4 (38:01):
Yeah, sometimes you got to take some risks, right, and
you know, hopefully you're being calculated in them, but sometimes
you just have to push beyond your own comfort zone
and just take a chance. And I have found once
you start taking that chance, it becomes easier to do,
you know, the next times. You know, the nervousness, the
(38:22):
self consciousness, to me, those are just signs that we're
human beings and we actually care about the way in
which we're going to present ourselves or the way that
we show up. And that's okay, right, and just you know,
sometimes it just requires an extra push to ourselves and
to move beyond that comfort zone. Sometimes it's physical all
(38:43):
the way, sometimes it's emotional, sometimes it's mental.
Speaker 5 (38:46):
Yeah, sometimes it's more work on something than we really
want to do.
Speaker 4 (38:50):
So it's just you know, pushing ourselves beyond that comfort
zone to me is critical.
Speaker 3 (38:57):
Yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
I mean we have to be and passionate with ourselves.
And you said it before, Rich that or think great
Man said that we have to keep ourselves in a
positive energy.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
If we keep.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Ourselves in a negative energy, it's just going to continue
to foster that same negative aspects of thoughts and feelings
about things. So speak positive about yourself. Know that you
are there for a reason. Know that you've accomplished things
because of all that you've experienced and learned throughout the
way as well. And sometimes we may need outside help
(39:31):
for that, so you know it's okay to seek therapy.
Therapy is part of your wellness. So you know, in
our in our community, we'll say our in the black community,
sometimes seeking help is looked upon as being weak or
you know what's wrong with you type deal. But I
want us to definitely let our listeners know that that's
(39:51):
not the case. By seeking help show strength. It shows
that you want to be better, but recognizing that you
are only you as well, and that's sometimes we need
that outside assistance to help us get to a better
place too, So if need be, ask people around whom
they see. You can also check different websites, especially like
(40:11):
the National Medical Association if you're looking for a minority
reference in different fields of study. The local or state
health departments or licensing organizations can also be of some
benefit for you as well. But seek therapy if it's
just not able to move forward. You know, have your peers,
have your circle around you that you again can have
(40:35):
those open and transparent conversations with, because they're the ones
that are going to also be able to help keep
you uplifted through those times of feeling like you're just
not adequate or am I really where I need to
be in this position and everything, So we encourage that
as well.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
I'm gonna just take one, I'm gonna take you back
real quick, one step and say, you know, think about
how you might define success, think about redefining it and
not focusing so much on these notions of perfection and
still focus on progress. And when focusing on it meaning
celebrating the baby steps, you know, no not And when
(41:17):
I say celebrating the baby steps, I don't mean that
when your child is graduating from from kindergarten that you
should go rent a limo and throw a party.
Speaker 3 (41:25):
No, why not?
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Those are basic expectations, all right, yeah, celebrate it all right,
good job, but don't be out there renting no limo
and throwing no parties for that saying.
Speaker 4 (41:40):
Else, don't put pressure on yourself to do it right,
right right, exactly right right.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
That's up.
Speaker 3 (41:45):
You know.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
Let's reduce anxiety and improve self esteemed by accepting that
all progress is good progress, and every every small step forward,
every small step forward, is still a good thing. And
so if we can strength, if we can strength together,
there's several small steps moving forward. Now we've got something
bigger to celebrate because we're you know, and so it's
(42:06):
this notion of just let's take progress over perfection. Let's
continually focus on getting a little better, doing a little
bit more, keeping moving forward in that same direction, but
not focusing on we've got to do it all, it's
got to be incredible. No, it's just baby steps and
we keep getting a little better each stay.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
You know.
Speaker 4 (42:26):
One of the sort of underlying themes of imposter syndrome
that we haven't sort of said explicitly, but I hear
it all the time, particularly from folks who are sort
of high achievers or like really ambitious people. And it's
this notion that I don't want to look or sound stupid, right,
(42:48):
that that is such a driver of imposter syndrome to me.
It's like, you don't want to look or sound stupid,
That's it. And it's like a straight jacket that folks
put on themselves. And I just try to encourage myself
and encourage others. Again, it's going to require a little
bit of courage, it's going to require a little bit
of practice.
Speaker 5 (43:08):
But get in the habit.
Speaker 4 (43:09):
Of moving beyond this notionn't of you just got to
say the right thing at the right time, you know,
like this somehow.
Speaker 5 (43:16):
It's intrinsically within you to say it right.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
But take this sounds like they're saying it sounds like
you're saying, be comfortable with saying something stupid every now and.
Speaker 4 (43:28):
Then exactly, or or being wrong right or failing right,
all those things.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
And I think we had to put it out there too,
that we recognize that for us, the folks of color,
black folks, that that's even magnified.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
Even more tipe of deal.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
So we have to be able to be wrong, be okay,
just take it as another opportunity for us to learn
and grow from it. Right, So, just because you made
a mistake, or in your mind you made a missa
take for others, they might have seen that as an accomplishment,
So us an opportunity, right exactly.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
Don't tell on yourself and things.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
Just keep it going and say that that was part
of how it was supposed to have been said or done,
and then let them think about it.
Speaker 3 (44:18):
They think about it, be like, hmm, that one.
Speaker 4 (44:23):
It's part of the genius of being black, really is
this ability to improvise. And I think you know it
sort of bumps up against this notion of you got
to say the right thing and be perfect. But you know,
you know, the great musicians of our time, the great
athletes of our time, they were great not because of
(44:46):
some perfect way of doing it, because they improvised or
like they decided I'm gonna do it this way. I
think Miles David said something about there's no wrong note, right, Yes,
you play next something along the slides right, yes, So
that I would argue our genius, but that requires you
(45:06):
to be afraid.
Speaker 5 (45:08):
I mean, don't be afraid to make some mistakes.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
Learn from failure, right. Everybody always talks about the quote
unquote successful people always talking about how much they learned
from their failures, how important failing was, you know, and
you know.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
That said that as well. You know you have to
fail in order to succeed, right exactly.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
Yeah, you know I got cut to did not become
a superstar. So I know.
Speaker 3 (45:40):
You are superstar, my brother.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
You just wasn't It wasn't It wasn't my mistake, wasn't
nothing for me to learn.
Speaker 7 (45:48):
It was their's the natural genius, that is it.
Speaker 3 (46:00):
Uh huh, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
Rich Now, I was just going to say this whole thing,
you know, this notion of embracing imperfection, this acceptance of
the reality of who and what we are as imperfect beings, right,
who are going to make mistakes from time to time,
and you know, don't let that hinder your forward progress.
Don't let that prevent you from being bold and taking
(46:23):
those steps, taking those risks. As Greg mentioned earlier.
Speaker 4 (46:27):
Yeah, well, this has been hopefully an enlightening conversation for
our audience. I certainly enjoyed it. I just think when
we think of imposter syndrome. It really is a thing
that exists, and you know people are studying it now,
seventy eighty percent of the population at some point experiencing it.
(46:50):
Is you can't get more real than that, and suggests
to me that you're not alone and you're not the
only one feeling that way. I think what we have
said here is that knowing your type helps you spot
the traps progress and support and compassion can quiet our
inner critic. And so you know, we want to make
(47:11):
sure that we are all doing what we can to
support each other and making sure that a what type
yourself you might be able to relate to and what
helps you push through it. And then we want and
to invite our listeners to encourage the sharing of their
stories or reflections or strategies with others, either through our
(47:34):
own system here or even if you decide to do
it in your own private or personal life. And so
I think this is a good conversation and a good
place to end the topic. But we'll be coming back
in a couple of weeks with our next conversation, and
we're so happy that our listeners are joined in and
(47:55):
look forward to many more conversations in the future. And
we really, really really enjoy your feedback, your comments or questions,
and you can do it on social media, or you
can do it via email, or you can call some
of y'all know us, call it text us, but that
feedback for us is critically important.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
Yeah, especially now you can hear Greg the whole way through.
He gotta He's got a new mic. Everybody. He sounds good,
Thank you, Rich He sounds great again, Yes, sir, he
sounds good, doesn't.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
He outstanded, Bros. Outstanding, Thank you.
Speaker 5 (48:36):
Brother is always good.
Speaker 3 (48:38):
Thank you, Boks
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