Mentorship & Success

Mentorship and success: Guiding the Next Generation of Black Men. In this two-topic episode, the three Brothers discuss mentoring the next generation of Black men, and then they switch gears slightly to discuss whether college is the golden ticket to success for young Black men as it was once perceived to be in the past.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to Raw and Refine, the Gentleman's Hour, where we're
going to have conversation with middle aged black men about
what's going on. We welcome you to listen, comment and like,
and hopefully encourage others to join for future conversations as well.
We always like to start off with a toast, and

(00:29):
with that toast, it's because we are gentlemen and we
do it Raw and Refine.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
So, GK, why don't you start us off with the
beverage for today?

Speaker 3 (00:41):
Yeah, so.

Speaker 4 (00:44):
I think I've introduced this beverage before. It is one
of my favorites. It's from Denny's local liquor store in
Chicago and they always have it on sale.

Speaker 5 (01:00):
Unbelievable.

Speaker 4 (01:01):
It's actual champagne and you know, as you know, champagne
has to be from a particular region of France to
actually be called champagne. Otherwise it's called sparkling. Why this
is frash champagne from the Champagne region of France. And
it's like really really inexpensive as champagne goes. So this

(01:26):
is what I tend to tend to drink when I'm
not drinking, let's gout. So this is a drink I
am opening the bottle right now, and you're going to
hear the pop sound in just a moment. And so
it's m Haslinger and fee. And the funny thing is

(01:47):
we we all took French. So that's probably a better
annunciation of it than the one I just gave.

Speaker 2 (01:55):
Right that would not sound French at all of them
as if he.

Speaker 4 (02:03):
Uh, I think John, you took all four years of friends,
so you right.

Speaker 5 (02:10):
So, but this is the drink. It's a good, inexpensive.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
Champagne, outstanding, outstanding.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
Well s lou I have, I have prosecco and the YETI.

Speaker 6 (02:25):
Yeah, I know, yeah, I talked about that before.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
But you know, I'm still in the you know, we're.

Speaker 6 (02:32):
Still uh in the final stages of rehabbing the cribs,
so you know, stuff ain't quite where it's supposed to
be yet.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
So I know where this thing.

Speaker 3 (02:41):
Is all the time.

Speaker 1 (02:42):
So hey, it keeps at the right temperature all the time.

Speaker 3 (02:46):
It's all good.

Speaker 2 (02:47):
It keeps it keeps it nice and cold and keeps
the fizz.

Speaker 1 (02:51):
Brother, you keep sipping how you like sipping.

Speaker 6 (02:54):
Okay, only problem is it's got a big straw.

Speaker 3 (02:59):
Careful, that's right, that's right.

Speaker 1 (03:04):
I'm gonna live the y'all on this one the night,
so I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to figure
out what my sparkling choice will be come the next
time this comes up.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
It's gonna come up pretty much anytime.

Speaker 6 (03:17):
Greg is the one making the choice.

Speaker 3 (03:21):
That is true now that we see.

Speaker 6 (03:22):
This, so you know, you know, put it out there
when y'all need to come up with the beverage choice.

Speaker 7 (03:30):
John said, well, I don't really have a thought in line,
and Greg said, well, I know, let's get people to
go to to go to you. That's right, get you,
get you a choice and stuck there.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
I'm gonna go get me some Yes, sir, I need
to find that you're talking about. You got a text
it to the group. Put it in group so I
know which one you're talking about when.

Speaker 5 (04:02):
You're talking that going forward.

Speaker 6 (04:08):
Yeah, so let's let's jump on into this. So you know,
welcome listeners. It's been a minute, life's been lifing, and
so we've been away for more than a minute. Uh,
but we're back. And so today we kind of you know,
kind of a double whammy for you.

Speaker 2 (04:27):
Uh.

Speaker 6 (04:28):
You know, we got to two topics, two things that
we're gonna touch on on both of them, and they're
they're kind of interconnected, uh and kind of not.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
But you know, both topics.

Speaker 6 (04:41):
Are about preparing the next generation and challenging long standing assumptions.
You know, I guess you could say the two topics
for today are the importance of mentoring for black men
and our role as older men and guiding our younger brothers.

Speaker 3 (04:59):
So you stay older or not old?

Speaker 2 (05:01):
Right? I said older? I said as older as older.

Speaker 5 (05:07):
That just shows that I'm actually saying hearing old.

Speaker 6 (05:09):
But yeah, that's that's because as you're getting older, your
hearing is getting worse, right, a sign that you are
an older man now? But now yes, so you know,
guiding our younger brothers. And the second one is whether
college should still be viewed as the required path for
success in the black community. So to two different perspectives

(05:34):
both tied together, or two different topics tied to this
notion of preparing the next generation. That's what we're going
to be talking about today. And you know, like I said,
we've been away four minutes, so we're excited, got a
lot of stuff to try and unpack in these two
topics and looking forward to it.

Speaker 2 (05:52):
So I'm gonna hand it over to John.

Speaker 3 (05:56):
I appreciate that. Rick.

Speaker 1 (05:57):
So yeah, so we're going to start it off talking
about mentorship and from that lead into higher education and
what that may look like as well. So, you know,
mentorship has always been a curious topic for me.

Speaker 3 (06:17):
For sure. I didn't really.

Speaker 1 (06:20):
Understand mentorship until honestly, till after I had already gotten
into medicine, and I look back, I don't recall really
having a mentor coming up through school age, you know,
times college. I again can't recall that person that I

(06:42):
would have identified as that's my mentor someone I would
have run to for questions or guidance or you know,
how do I get to my next path in life.
I just thought that I had some things assumed on
how I needed to get there, but really didn't have that.

Speaker 3 (06:59):
Professor or someone.

Speaker 1 (07:02):
Then medical school again just did not feel or see
except for maybe my program director at the time was
one that if I looked back and could identify as
a possible mentor, would have been that. But I really
didn't understand mentorship until after already being in practice of medicine.

(07:25):
And it made me think about how much I felt
I may have missed out on.

Speaker 3 (07:32):
And you know how I realized.

Speaker 1 (07:35):
If I had had mentors throughout my steps are growing up,
I may be at a better understanding, a better state
of things. I'm doing well, you know, things are going great,
but I think there's still probably more that I probably
missed out on without quote having a mentor. And sometimes
I'm approached to be a mentor, you know, for medical

(07:58):
students or residents coming up, or even young docs that
are coming in or through my fraternity. You know, we
try to mentor the newer members that come in. But
in all fairness, I still had to learn what that
meant to be a mentor, and I'm still learning. So
that's why you know, this conversation really came up, was

(08:19):
for us to help identify one, you know, what do
we believe would be helpful and mentoring and why And
two why do we even feel like it is important,
especially for young black males to have mentors. And I
think they come in all shapes and sizes and things
like that. But I'm sure we're going to get more

(08:40):
into that as we go on with the conversation. So
I think as we are starting now, you know, we're
looking at it as a question of as older men. Again,
here we got this aspect are we old or are
we older? I think we're talking as older. I mean,
how do we step into that role of guiding our

(09:03):
younger brothers?

Speaker 4 (09:05):
Well, John, I'm fascinated by you having said that you
don't really I want to speak for you. You correct me
if I missed it, But the notion that you felt
that you didn't really have a mentor, I'm fascinated by
that because I've had that same feeling. I feel the

(09:26):
same way. Right, there's a way in which there wasn't.
I don't know of I can't think of a single
person who helped guide me or like said this is
but no, I've said the same thing.

Speaker 5 (09:40):
And I think it's.

Speaker 4 (09:42):
Because of that that I have a particular interest in,
at least engaging with young folks, young cats. I don't
think I call it mentoring, but at least, you know,
I keep some young cats around me that I like
to try to talk to and treat as grown people,
and like when when I asked or sometimes offers stuff

(10:04):
to I guess that's kind of mentoring, but I don't
really see it that way. Call it that, but I'm
like you or like cool, I don't.

Speaker 5 (10:13):
I don't think I.

Speaker 6 (10:14):
Had that, yeah, my at least how I can conceptualize
a mentor.

Speaker 2 (10:21):
Or what it means to mentor someone.

Speaker 6 (10:23):
So the now or the verb, I did not have
that going on for me coming up. I think probably
the no, no, that that wouldn't even be it to say,
because I was gonna say maybe kind of in law school,
the way that the Black Law Student Association the older
when I was in my first year, the second and
third year, is how they kind of brought us along.

Speaker 2 (10:44):
But that wasn't really mentorship.

Speaker 6 (10:46):
That was more so just the culture of the black
law students in our school and how you know, we
took care of each other. So I guess it might
have been more community than mentorship. When I think of mentorship,
I think of someone that's a concerted effort to kind of.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
To guide you along a path, or to help correct
your path if you're headed in the wrong.

Speaker 6 (11:08):
Direction, or to kind of to give you some wisdom
from some experience, to you know, those things. I think,
And it's an When I think of mentorship, I think
of a relationship. That's how I conceive of it. It
looks a two way one a two way one, right, Yes,
a two way one exactly. And so I don't feel
like I had that. Either I had role models, I

(11:31):
had people that cared. I had people that in college. No, again,
I had some people that cared about me, but no.

Speaker 2 (11:39):
There wasn't that back.

Speaker 6 (11:40):
And forth, that true relationship in that fashion. So it's
kind of like, you know, looking at it historically, what
as we're talking about it when we were coming up,
even looking at the different organizations or social institutions at
the time in the notes that family, church, sports, community.

Speaker 3 (12:00):
The leaders those were around.

Speaker 6 (12:03):
But I still honestly don't see that mentor that would
have stuck out for me. So I agree with you John,
do you think those those kind of traditional mentoring structures
exist today?

Speaker 2 (12:14):
We did not see that.

Speaker 6 (12:16):
But I know, Greg, you're saying that you kind of
you might not call it that, but you try to.
You know, you have assumed that role or you kind
of have those building those kind of relationships with some
young people.

Speaker 2 (12:29):
That you keep around. How much of it do you
see today?

Speaker 5 (12:35):
I think the work it feels like the word mentor.

Speaker 4 (12:38):
I would argue some of it comes out of sort
of a corporate sort of context, like where you know,
you people, someone's in the company for a long time,
I'm trying to show them what they call it, show
them the ropes, teach them the ropes, or whatever the
saying goes. And so I think that's part of my

(12:59):
reluctance in accepting that. But it is true that it's important.
And I think you do see sometimes where you're able
to influence younger folks or less experienced folks about it, because,
by the way, it's not even just about age.

Speaker 5 (13:16):
It's also people who.

Speaker 4 (13:17):
May have a little less experience in roles than you might.
And so to me, it's always been about how open
am I. I try to make myself open and approachable
and be less of a talker, Like, so, what you think,
what do you like?

Speaker 5 (13:33):
How do you feel? My sense is that it's a
pretty rare thing.

Speaker 4 (13:37):
Outside of families, right, Like you'll see it in politics
with like especially in Chicago, right where someone's dad or
uncle is involved in politics or has a position and they're,
you know, for better or worse, handing it off to
a sibling or a son or daughter. And I think

(14:00):
I see it in that context. But yeah, outside of
sort of a corporate so I've got an.

Speaker 6 (14:06):
Example, I got an example m his brother that he's
from Chicago.

Speaker 2 (14:12):
I used to hoop with him. Name is Marty Monaghan.

Speaker 6 (14:17):
He's got this Uh he's the I want to say executive.

Speaker 2 (14:21):
Director, and I might get that wrong, but I have
to go to his website.

Speaker 6 (14:24):
But he's he runs this organization called the black Man Lab,
and he's in Atlanta now and whenever I'm down there,
I'm trying to see if I could catch up with
him well on a time when they have some kind
of event going on, but I'm usually down there for
graduation and don't have the time to make it to
some of the different things. But I know that they
do mentoring as a big part of this organization. But

(14:47):
it's called the black Man Lab, and so it's it's
a really interesting and cool organization his brother it's.

Speaker 3 (14:53):
Doing right now, very very grassroots.

Speaker 6 (14:56):
That just popped into my head as an example of
where I know there's some structured opportunities for older cats
to mentor young the young cats that are connected to
this organization. So so to your point, the corporate like
you said, but also that not for profit space, you know,
is where we see that kind of stuff community organizations,

(15:17):
and that kind of thing, even the one that I
was a part of a few years back. It was
called Project high Ridge. You know, one of the things
that we were talking about doing was some mentoring within
the structure that we were trying to develop. So there's some
opportunities out there and that it does exist.

Speaker 2 (15:34):
Oh yeah, that's interesting what you said. Greg. I'm sorry
John about the politics.

Speaker 6 (15:40):
And I think it's interesting because a lot of times
I feel like that the older politicians don't ever really
want to let go and so, yeah, and so even
the mentoring gets stunted to a certain degree because they.

Speaker 4 (15:56):
Well as a surgeon person that I consider That's why
it's important to define what we mean by mentorship, because
there's someone who's a politician elected official that I consider
a mentor. Right, But did he really were we really
close where he was advising me?

Speaker 3 (16:16):
No, not at all.

Speaker 4 (16:18):
But I consider him as someone I would want to
like sort of be like. He was kind of an
example that I saw. But did we ever have any
deep sort of like analysis around our relationship and the
work that I do and what values we might share.

Speaker 5 (16:34):
We never did that.

Speaker 6 (16:36):
That's what required for that for the relationship. And to
your point is that is that required? Is that part
of the definition? John was about to say something glid.

Speaker 2 (16:46):
Yeah, No.

Speaker 1 (16:47):
I thank you guys for both touching on really about
as I've kind of looked into what mentor and mentorship is.
You both have said, really the qualities of what makes
up me entoring and and the key to that is
that it does have to be a two way relationship.
Otherwise you're just a teacher to that person and the

(17:10):
person becomes a student otherwise or a coach and you're
the athlete or the uh.

Speaker 3 (17:16):
Whatever that you need to be coached in.

Speaker 1 (17:20):
And from that there has to be you know, some
sense of of what I've looked into, clarity, communication, and consultation.
So you know, that's the the things that you've all,
you both have just been saying, is that it has
to be some kind of you know, advice awareness. We've
got to be able to talk about what does that

(17:41):
look like?

Speaker 3 (17:42):
You know, what this is going to achieve?

Speaker 2 (17:45):
I got it, I got an issue that I need.

Speaker 3 (17:50):
Right.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
All of that is what I can come to see
that that is a part of it. You know, as
we're getting into like current setting, social media and things
like that, I did have that a little bit. Oh
my first boss, when my first boss when I started
practicing law marked DuBowski. Yeah, I will say that he

(18:14):
was a mentor in some respects.

Speaker 2 (18:17):
He was.

Speaker 3 (18:18):
No, that's it. I mean.

Speaker 1 (18:21):
So when I was coming to North Carolina to start practice,
the way I got sold on coming was the provider
that I was going to be working with was an
established black mail internal medicine physician already in the community.
So here, I'm like, you know, wow, okay, yeah, I'm

(18:42):
about to truly get some mentoring into the how to
do this thing. But I think you've told y'all the
story that before getting before I even got here, he
decided he didn't want to be a part of the
company anymore. So we never got to work together. I
think I met that met them probably about five years

(19:02):
after that, already been workers established and stuff. So but yeah,
but I mean, you know, so I think I like
you said, I think those are some aspects, but some
structured areas rich big brothers, big sisters.

Speaker 3 (19:15):
You know.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
I think that is considered a mentoring program that's out there.
I know for the fraternal organizations, they have mentoring programs
within their organizations, and I'm sure the sororities do as well,
but our conversation is more around the young men, but
it has to be those you know, you at least
need those three elements. I think as part of mentoring,
you need that clarity, communication and consultation.

Speaker 3 (19:38):
That has to be a part of it as well.

Speaker 6 (19:40):
So you're cool the three scenes every scenes of mentoring.

Speaker 3 (19:48):
Yep.

Speaker 4 (19:49):
Yeah, And I think we we are such a funny
way in which more we've talked about it, are the
way we kind of initially, I think all agreed from
the beginning that we didn't.

Speaker 5 (20:02):
Really have any real mentoring.

Speaker 4 (20:04):
But then sort of more we thought about it, I
think we sort of agree we had some elements of mentoring.

Speaker 6 (20:11):
Yeah, so yeah, you had some of the verb, but
not necessarily the now yeah, the mentor right that you
might not have had a true mentor.

Speaker 3 (20:19):
Right, yeah, right, yeah, right.

Speaker 2 (20:22):
Yeah, there were a few opportunities along the way.

Speaker 6 (20:25):
One of the interesting questions I think that popped up
and we were putting together the outline was this notion
of how changing family dynamics or how social media has
impacted this notion of mentoring because to the question of
these structures still exists, and if we look at these
three seeds. I think the three seeds could exist over
social media. The three seeds could exist even if family

(20:47):
dynamics are changing, if there's an opportunity for that relationship.
Now people build relationships and through social media. You know,
it's interesting that there are some people I communicate with
regularly on book that I've never really spent any time
within person, but we align on different ideas or thoughts
or issues, and so we interact regularly.

Speaker 2 (21:10):
You know.

Speaker 1 (21:12):
Well that brings in even even up to date conversation,
you know, as relates to chat gpt AI and what
kind of influence that seems to be able to have
on some people. You know, there is the recent case
of the young man who committed suicide based on his
conversation with Chat gpt and AI.

Speaker 3 (21:34):
God rest his soul.

Speaker 1 (21:35):
But you know that in some form was an AI
device mentoring this young man.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
And that's just it.

Speaker 6 (21:45):
It doesn't have other three seeds, so it's it's close
to mentorship, but it's not true mentorship, right right?

Speaker 2 (21:53):
Who were your three seeds again?

Speaker 1 (21:55):
Clarity, clarity, communication and consultation.

Speaker 6 (22:01):
And so yeah, so well you had consultation in some
kind of sort of well, I don't know. Clarity communication, yeah,
but the clarity is what's lacking. Yeah there, yeah, clarity
around the relationship, and then clarity around that you know,

(22:22):
with especially if it was check GPT, which is notorious
for making mistakes. Yeah, you know, it's so you know
you then some recent recent, uh recent study they figured
out why chet GPT makes while all of these ais

(22:44):
make up stuff is because of the training. The way
they were being trained was to you know, that the
training rewarded them for an answer.

Speaker 2 (22:54):
But would not but did not reward them for saying
I don't know.

Speaker 6 (22:59):
Which is what you should do when you don't know,
and so they start making up shit.

Speaker 4 (23:04):
So that GPT always got an answer, right, might not
the one that applies appropriately.

Speaker 6 (23:12):
Right, So I think that clarity piece is missing, right,
I agree with that. I agree with that's crazy though,
you know, because even if it's not a true mentorship,
it's a relationship, and you got that that person was
looking for guidance of some sort you know, sounded like

(23:33):
some deeper issues.

Speaker 1 (23:34):
But yeah, yeah, I definitely agree. I mean, but think
about like catfishing, you know, and things like that. These
are all opportunities that folks get into whatever they feel
they're needing, lacking, wanting grab on to something that is
not tangible to them, but yet has somehow figured out

(23:56):
the psyche or what this person is looking for or
what is perceived.

Speaker 3 (24:02):
That they're looking for.

Speaker 1 (24:03):
Yeah, then try to provide that for them, and in
most cases unfortunately in a negative way as well. Those
are the things, but that can happen in real life,
you know. I'm sure there are instances of folks quote
thought they had a mentor and that mentor was just
using them, you know, for whatever game they were trying

(24:24):
to get.

Speaker 4 (24:24):
You know, I think it's an interesting thing, I you know,
think about it more. A lot of it really is
about just simply you know, the basic concept of relationship
and what it means and yep, and like how you
interact with somebody or some things and is it helpful
to you or whatever it is doing for you.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
Yeah, yeah, And I think that's what you said too, GK.
It's a matter of what are you? What is what
is the mentoring trying to help you with? So is
it a role and work? Is it a role in politics?
Is it a role in life? So if it's a
role in life, you know the question that I'm approched

(25:08):
to us is does that person need to look like me?
Or does that person need to understand the culture that
I'm in to help me with that guidance? And does
that person need to be a male?

Speaker 6 (25:25):
I think that I think that's very that's a very
interesting question, and I'm going to say no to all three.

Speaker 2 (25:32):
If the question is life.

Speaker 3 (25:34):
You said you know, now in.

Speaker 6 (25:36):
Career, I think there should be some alignment at least
with respective experience or the path I'm trying to head
down or something like that.

Speaker 2 (25:44):
Even if it's socially, there might be some.

Speaker 6 (25:46):
Benefits if I'm seeking guidance and social settings just from
someone who has similar experiences or maybe looks.

Speaker 2 (25:53):
More like me or something like that. But I don't know.

Speaker 6 (25:56):
I think as it's just then there's this grandest thing
of life and how to live or how to live
my best life or how to achieve my grandest goals
or something like that. I think no is the answer
to all of those, because I think it really comes
down to that again, that relationship and that individual, that

(26:17):
other person that that their ability to truly connect with
you and get out that stuff out of you. Right,
Because if this is this is about a mentor is
helping you achieve some level or some goal or something.
It's all about that relationship between you and that person

(26:39):
and their ability to help you see what you need
to see to get where you're trying to go.

Speaker 3 (26:44):
So that can come in any form, I think, agreed.

Speaker 4 (26:48):
And of what's foundation to that relationship really is trust, right,
like of the thing that the person's trying to mentor
you on or like you. Actually, there's a certain vulnerability
that comes with like allowing someone like to mentor you.
There's a certain arrogance perhaps in saying you're mentoring some okay,

(27:11):
confidence in saying that.

Speaker 5 (27:12):
You're mentoring someone.

Speaker 4 (27:15):
And yeah, so trust is a big thing, Like if
you know you're mentoring someone, is it possible to be
mentored by someone you can't trust?

Speaker 5 (27:24):
I don't know, right.

Speaker 4 (27:25):
So again it's like the things about relationships, what makes
a relationship successful and valuable?

Speaker 6 (27:32):
Yeah, well that dips you off into a whole other
direction because it's with this term trust, Because I think too,
that's one of those terms that I think a lot
of people misuse. I think a lot of people, I
should say, give trusted situations where it's not earned. I
think people I think a lot of times people are
willing to trust someone because they like them.

Speaker 2 (27:55):
Real trust is born out of experience.

Speaker 6 (27:59):
I could share experience ultimately, so I can trust that
you're going to do this or that in this situation
because of because I know you, because we've gone through
this together or that or this or that, And so
I think this notion of trust sometimes is handed out
a little too freely in some settings. I think, though,
as it relates to this mentorship thing that you're talking about,

(28:20):
is the essence of it is because I have to
be able to you know, if I don't trust you,
how I am I gonna execute, you know, whatever it
is that you're trying to give me. Am I truly
going to be willing to go down that path or
take that or especially when a lot of times mentors
are going to be going to ask you to look
at yourself or to really be honest about X, Y

(28:44):
or Z, you've got to be willing to accept that criticism.

Speaker 1 (28:49):
Well, how do you think, given that, how do we
think we could advise? You know, some younger folks so
my side, some miles you know, yes we are. So
that can bring a whole nother question fathering and mentoring.
What's the difference in the two, you know, because we've

(29:12):
got those experiences we've lived, you know, life that they
are probably looking at and things of that nature. But
is that just being a father to them? So how
do we help them to look for mentors in their
life for what maybe they may be looking for as
their you know, life and growing up and trying to

(29:35):
figure this thing out. What are some things we might
need to try to recommend for them.

Speaker 4 (29:41):
That's interesting, you know, I think I think art like,
our sons are a little lucky in the sense that
they have men around who are mindful of that stuff,
or at least adjacent to men who are mindful of
that and want to like tell them things, you know,

(30:02):
and they're open to it. But like, but I can't
say that that's a common thing, right, I think post man,
a young man, I would say, black man today don't
really have that.

Speaker 5 (30:17):
That's my hunch.

Speaker 6 (30:18):
Well, and that connects to the that connects to just
the lack of role models, father figures, et cetera that
are around.

Speaker 2 (30:25):
So you know, proximity is an issue with a lot
of that.

Speaker 3 (30:30):
I think.

Speaker 4 (30:30):
Yeah, So, like, you know, just like God, Miles would
meet Rich and maybe you've seen him once.

Speaker 5 (30:37):
Every four or five years or whatever.

Speaker 4 (30:39):
But Rich feels no shyness about offering you are telling
him about and Miles is open to hearing, right, same thing,
any of y'all. Right, that's a variable. That's I don't
know how common that is.

Speaker 6 (30:53):
I don't think it's I don't think it's very because
of the relationship piece of it, right, everything that we're
talking about, it's ultimately tied the relationship. And I know
one of the questions was, why do you think some
younger men resist being mentored? And it's that relationship piece, right,
It's that credibility piece.

Speaker 3 (31:12):
Why should I listen to you? Who are you?

Speaker 2 (31:14):
You know?

Speaker 5 (31:14):
And that comes from a lot of arrogance that comes
with it.

Speaker 4 (31:17):
I'm gonna keep my mind telling me I'm gonna give you,
I'm gonna give you advice.

Speaker 6 (31:21):
Right, It's it's that it's that trust piece, you know,
I don't trust, I don't know you.

Speaker 3 (31:25):
Who are you? Why should I listen to you?

Speaker 1 (31:28):
And unfortunately and our aspects of our community, we just
haven't had those positive especially mail role models you know,
coming up. So again, it's it's what you said, Rich
is that trust piece, you know, has to at least
in our opinion, needs to be a part of that
relationship or develop throughout that relationship.

Speaker 3 (31:50):
So it's a barrier there.

Speaker 1 (31:52):
If we don't get it that way, then then typically
we're getting it from those that we are around, and
sometimes that it's not always the best influence there as well.
So you know, again, if I'm having this conversation with Jonathan,
I guess you know, I would say just what you
guys have been saying there is that well, you know, one,

(32:16):
make sure that it's someone that has some experience in
what it is that you're trying to accomplish and achieve.

Speaker 3 (32:24):
Make sure that you are.

Speaker 1 (32:25):
Able to have a conversation with that person versus they're
just telling you what to do as well, and just
make sure that there's a comfort level there that that
as as you guys are having a conversation, you feel
like there is an element of trust that's developing from that.

(32:45):
I mean, I think those would be those aspects that
I would give as advice for that TYPEEA.

Speaker 6 (32:53):
So great, he touched on it, and I want you
to go a little deeper. Yeah, how do we earn
trust to cross the generational divide how do you earn
how do you earn the trust from these young people
that you keep around you that you might not be
formally mentoring, but they're in your sphere.

Speaker 5 (33:14):
Well, well, I think, but it's not even an effort.

Speaker 4 (33:17):
I just I like listening to them and getting their
points of view, you know. So my instinct is really
mostly to just listen and like not offer judgment.

Speaker 5 (33:30):
Or something right away. And that's I think.

Speaker 4 (33:34):
That's sort of my approach to all of all of
it in terms of like mentorship or relationships with folks.
It's just like, Okay, this is I'm learning here too,
and just.

Speaker 5 (33:45):
Like make people feel like there's a safe space.

Speaker 4 (33:49):
Don't what they call it, don't betray folks, you know,
confidence or trust in you. Like I'm not out there
saying such and such said this, said that. And yeah,
it's related to the listening part, not always feeling the
need to be the smartest person. Sometimes you just let them,

(34:11):
let them say what they're saying, and you don't. You
actually don't have to say anything sometimes or correct.

Speaker 5 (34:17):
Them, egn when they're wrong.

Speaker 4 (34:18):
You know, eventually they will come back and say, you know,
GK said this, or GK said that or something, and
it's like whatever, you know, we're all learning here together.
That's how I try to approach it, not try to
always be like this is what I think you should do.
And I know that that was a source even you know,

(34:39):
with Miles, a bit of challenge that I never I
didn't know. I was never the person to tell him
this is what you should do.

Speaker 5 (34:49):
I always I think he sometimes wanted me to tell
him what to do, but I.

Speaker 4 (34:55):
Very rarely did unless I thought he was off track
or something.

Speaker 5 (34:59):
But it's like, this is what I think, and this.

Speaker 4 (35:02):
Is why approach this what I did, and this is
how I thought about it is how I think about it.

Speaker 5 (35:06):
But I try not to be.

Speaker 4 (35:09):
Overly judgmental, you know, regardless of the scenario, unless you
see somebody in trouble and then you got to like, yo.

Speaker 5 (35:17):
This is what's happening.

Speaker 4 (35:18):
So that's what I try to do, whether it's younger
folks or just people I'm around, just kind of like
more listen, you know, and like show through action what
I what what I actually think.

Speaker 1 (35:31):
And also remember that mentor in the mentorship. You know,
it's not a perfect relationship either. You know, this is
one of growth and guidance for both. Your mentor is
not perfect, Your mentees not perfect. If you start, however,
believing that that person is perfect, then then there's there's
an issue right then then and there. So I think

(35:53):
we got to just say and put it out there.
Just remember people are people.

Speaker 3 (35:57):
You know.

Speaker 1 (35:58):
What they're sharing is hopefully their authentic selves and what
they've experienced, and you take from that as to what
you feel you can take from it to help you
on your path.

Speaker 2 (36:09):
Yeah m hm.

Speaker 6 (36:11):
So let me ask have either of you well, no,
we kind of talked about that, Greg, but John, have
you taken on that full mentor role or have you
kind of mentored some people but not quite formally? What
I want to get at is the impact that it
would have had on you. That's what I'm kind of
interested in, is this flip side of it, What that

(36:34):
was like as you being the mentor, What benefit did
you get from it?

Speaker 2 (36:39):
What was the feels for you?

Speaker 8 (36:41):
M Yeah, it's like you said, Gka, I don't think
i've quote embraced the full word of mentor, but I
will say that I have at least two that would
consider me as their mentor or as I kind of
I helped give them guidance as they went through their

(37:06):
path of medicine.

Speaker 1 (37:08):
So one actually used to cheer with Alex, my daughter,
and she went through her med school. We stayed connected
trying to help, you know, give guidance, an understanding of
what that looks like and how to navigate and how's
this going as it relates to life around that. She
did her residency outside of Chicago, so you know, again

(37:31):
learning what that was like, how she's doing. She went
into internal medicine, and now it's a hospitalist actually at
my hospital here in North Carolina as well. So whenever
she's around, she referenced me, you know, if we're together
as her mentor.

Speaker 3 (37:47):
And then I had a young young man who.

Speaker 1 (37:49):
Also considers me that as well in similar situation. I'd
known him since since we moved here and watched him
grow up, and he decided he you know, I don't
think I couldn't get this. He went to Hampton instead
of Howard, but that you know, I said, well, yes,
that's on you.

Speaker 3 (38:06):
But but he did. He did great.

Speaker 1 (38:09):
He went to medical school at Rush you know, in
Chicago as well, and now he's a practicing cardiologist here
in North Carolina as well and I guess it's a
sense of and and and still connecting and having conversations
you know, with them on different.

Speaker 3 (38:27):
Levels as well too.

Speaker 2 (38:29):
So I think.

Speaker 1 (38:30):
It's it's a sense of like, you know, hey, I
you know, I guess I did help this person, you know,
down a path that we think has done them well
type deal. But my my issue with mentoring is that,
and I think you guys have heard me say this before,

(38:52):
is that I still struggle with being a good father.

Speaker 3 (38:58):
So for me, it was a out will.

Speaker 1 (39:00):
Wait, I don't know if I can mentor these folks
if I don't even feel like, you know, how am
I doing with my own kids yet?

Speaker 3 (39:09):
You see what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (39:11):
So but you know, again, as an age and growth
and life has gone on, you know, Jonathan, uh, you know,
definitely looks to me for advice and recommendations and sees
how I do things and tries to you know, at
least have an understanding of what he may need to

(39:32):
do to try to accomplish some things. But we talk
about that, well, this has to be your path, is
not you trying to shadow my path?

Speaker 3 (39:40):
Type deal?

Speaker 1 (39:41):
And the same thing with Alex as well, like yay,
you know, you're a doctor. Now you're doing your thing,
but you did your thing your way. I just have
to be a support for you, you know, give you
some thoughts on this, that and the other, and you
know how to handle certain situations. That then it's up
to you on how you how you take that it
make it fit into your world and your life type

(40:03):
deal as well.

Speaker 6 (40:04):
So yeah, so maybe as syndrome, that's all right, right, right,
right right?

Speaker 3 (40:10):
I think so.

Speaker 4 (40:11):
But I also think there's a there's a humility around
it that is evident to me the more I think
about it. It is this notion that like, you don't
call yourself a mentor, right, mentees call you the mentor,
right right.

Speaker 1 (40:29):
Right.

Speaker 3 (40:33):
Right.

Speaker 5 (40:34):
It's like to say, what I was a great dad?

Speaker 3 (40:38):
You you don't even like you?

Speaker 4 (40:41):
Right, so it's like like what what do they what
are they calling you?

Speaker 3 (40:46):
Right? Part of it?

Speaker 6 (40:48):
And that's that's that's that's that's that still goes to
this notion of relationship ultimately, right yeah, is it you know,
is it a declaration or is it an agreement?

Speaker 3 (40:57):
Right? Right?

Speaker 6 (40:58):
I we agree that this is a relationship where you know,
I'm the mentor and you're the mentee or I'm the
mentee and you're my mentor? Are we is this this
relationship has evolved to that, And again that goes to
that clarity point that John had mentioned as one of
the three seeds.

Speaker 3 (41:15):
It's clear that this is the relationship.

Speaker 6 (41:18):
And the only way that becomes clear is this the
two parties agree to it right on some level. And
so it's not a just a it's just not a blind,
bold declaration I'm going to mentor you because.

Speaker 3 (41:32):
You need this in your life, and I'm just that
dope Moses.

Speaker 6 (41:36):
I've got the tablet right the mountains, and so it's
a way, and so it's it's not that it's right.

Speaker 2 (41:43):
It's developed a relationship.

Speaker 6 (41:44):
And sometimes people go into it with the plan of
being a mentor or being a mentee.

Speaker 2 (41:49):
And that's the lot of these formal settings we talked about.

Speaker 6 (41:52):
Right, if you've got this structure program where I'm in,
I'm signed up to be a mentor, right, I'm going
to be a big brother. Listen, you know, I'm this
kid in this neighborhood that needs something in my mom
or somebody stuck me in this program, and so, okay, cool,
I'm gonna do this versus other settings where that relationship
might happen a little more organically. If it's in the workplace,

(42:15):
or in the church, or in all kinds of other settings,
it could that clarity might still come about, but it's
going to come about a little more organically as.

Speaker 2 (42:25):
Opposed to a planned structure either.

Speaker 6 (42:28):
But either way, it's still ultimately comes down to this relationship, right, and.

Speaker 5 (42:33):
A commitment to it.

Speaker 3 (42:35):
Yeah, from both both both shocks, I agree. I agree
so well they.

Speaker 1 (42:41):
I think that's leading us down to the next topic here, brothers.
If you're good, and I think that that is you know,
we're mentoring may show up is as it relates to
guiding towards education and career choices. So GK, I think
we're gonna have you kind of kick off our our
transition and over to college still the required path for success.

Speaker 4 (43:05):
Yeah, so I think we grew up anyway during a
period in which college was called sort of the golden ticket,
you know, but we have lived through those of us
who had student loans even.

Speaker 5 (43:23):
Thirty plus years ago.

Speaker 2 (43:24):
Though he said, right, I'm still paying. I'm getting close.
But he said hand he.

Speaker 5 (43:35):
Had or have.

Speaker 2 (43:38):
Understand it's lucky you No, just kidding.

Speaker 4 (43:43):
Intimately how expensive college can be. Man, And it's like
it's wild, like even you know, sending kids to college now, right,
Like it's it's ridiculous. So there's this question of is
college worth it quote quote worth it given the financial
cost involved? And on the other end, it's no guarantee

(44:07):
right to a job or to any success in the future. Right,
the idea of college being so called golden ticket is
under major stress, you know, even relative to like us
thirty some years ago. Right, it's even worse and more
challenging to even deal with today for college graduates. And so,

(44:32):
you know, should we still in the midst of not
just the costs of it, but like, given all the
things that are happening in college campus on college campuses,
given all of the technology that's like replacing people, et cetera,
should we even be encouraging you know, black men in
particular to go to college.

Speaker 5 (44:52):
Right? We know by all of.

Speaker 4 (44:55):
The metrics that few and fewer are going, that the
barriers even beyond the costs, are getting higher and higher,
particularly for black men, you know.

Speaker 5 (45:07):
And so I think the.

Speaker 4 (45:08):
Question is is college really worth it?

Speaker 5 (45:13):
Today?

Speaker 4 (45:14):
And yeah, that's sort of the main route to advancement,
particularly for black black folks and black men.

Speaker 6 (45:22):
Disclaimer disclaimer, I'm I'm a university academic leader.

Speaker 3 (45:30):
Right right, right, they call me de right Dean.

Speaker 6 (45:36):
I run at the moment seven degree programs across three universities,
So I'm a little biased on this issue, but just
throwing that disclaimer out there. I mean, we're all college graduates,
but yeah, I work. I work for a university system,
so I'm definitely a little biased on this particular issue.

Speaker 2 (45:58):
So I wanted to put that out there.

Speaker 1 (46:00):
And I think that's highly important. But as we were
getting ready for this, I did a little research on
this one as well my brothers, and it came up
and found out that there's a foundation out there called
the Blue Heart Foundation. This actually is a foundation that
developed for this question. Basically really focuses on empowering and

(46:22):
educating underserved youth. So they had six reasons for the
importance of higher education for African American boys, and I'm
a list those six and then we can go into
it more. We continue and incorporated that into our conversation
as well, But the six were in not any particular order,

(46:45):
but expanded career opportunities was one of the reasons why
higher earning potential overall. Okay, again overall we're saying here
three transition to a young man. That may be again
some conversation that we earlier had as it relates to

(47:06):
that as well. For improved confidence was found through their
research of African American boys that went on to higher education.
Number five, Happier and healthier lifestyles was observed there as well,
and six becoming a world traveler.

Speaker 3 (47:29):
I thought those are.

Speaker 1 (47:30):
Interesting six observations that they had as to the importance
of higher education and African American boys. What I also
found through some research though, and this might blow your
mind a little bit, the completion of college of black
males is only about forty eight percent or actually sorry,

(47:51):
forty percent, about forty percent. If they broke that down
to HBCUs and predominantly white institutions, only about thirty two
percent of Black males completed their degree program and they
looked at a six year program. When they looked at
this and forty six percent out of the predominantly white institutions. However,

(48:16):
they did put the caveat that HBCUs showed a stronger
positive impact on them after they completed their education through
that was means as well. So just some just some
research points out there as we.

Speaker 6 (48:32):
That's that cultural peace, that HBCU family kind of thing.
And interestingly, when you talk about the white institutions, a
large chunk of that are schools like mine where no,
I don't mean to U, I I mean where I
work at now you know, I worked for a for profit.
We graduate more black students than most of the HBCUs

(48:56):
every year. That's I mean just sheer numbers, you know,
comparing institutions, but you know we have we graduate more,
more black and brown students and more women because we're
our students are students nobody else wanted.

Speaker 3 (49:10):
Everybody else gave up on them.

Speaker 2 (49:12):
They thought that they couldn't learn, they couldn't do this,
or that they just needed a little more. And that's
the same.

Speaker 6 (49:17):
And so it's different from the HBCUs and that we
don't have the culture that the HPC youth have, but
we have the faculty that care and so that's where
their focus is at and they just happen to work
in those professions too.

Speaker 2 (49:30):
But it's really interesting what you said.

Speaker 6 (49:33):
One of the things I think that's tied to all
of those this number the six that you put up
here is what college does is college graduates think better.
College graduates, college graduates learn how to learn better.

Speaker 2 (49:50):
That's what college does for you.

Speaker 6 (49:52):
In addition to say developing a big chunk of knowledge
in some particular area. You know, if you completely get
that degree, is that developing of critical thinking skills is
learning how to do some research. It's learning how to
not just take everything on phase value, learning how to
read it, write effectively, communicate effectively. All of those things

(50:16):
translate and then the last one becoming a world traveler,
that goes a learn with that critical thinking piece, with
that being open to other perspectives and to look at
and be willing to learn that becoming a world traveler,
it's tied into that, right, because you're going to learn
other cultures. You're going to learn other people. You've got
to be comfortable not always being able to communicate naturally

(50:40):
or comfortably, but you still have to be able to
get it done right. Right if you're somewhere where they
don't speak your native language, but you still need to
be able to communicate with them so that you can eat,
so that you can get around, so that you can
enjoy and experience their culture. I think people that go
to college learn how to.

Speaker 1 (50:57):
Do that better, ships, learned about relationships as well.

Speaker 4 (51:03):
Go ahead, you well, we're an interesting moment in history, right,
Like I think, especially when you break it down by gender, right,
Like more and more women are going to college and
men campuses are like becoming like expeaks. The use of
sort of been that way for a while, but the number,

(51:25):
like it's like three to one or some crazy number
now increasingly more female. And so this question that we're
wrestling with around the importance of college for men, young
men in particular, it's an important one because I think
it's part of a larger cultural thing we're like dealing with.
Ed is like what's going on with young men, Black men,

(51:49):
white men?

Speaker 2 (51:50):
Like this stupidification of America?

Speaker 4 (51:54):
Yeah, but it's but it's it's particularly pernicious.

Speaker 5 (52:00):
I don't know why.

Speaker 4 (52:00):
I don't want to use that word, but I want
to amongst males, and I think that it is a
cultural and you know, I would say a national crisis
that males are in, and I think black males have
sort of been in for a little while, but white
males are.

Speaker 5 (52:20):
Increasingly in that category as well.

Speaker 6 (52:24):
I think they've been in that category in large numbers
for a long time, but I think in recent years
it's to become a lot more evident.

Speaker 5 (52:31):
Yeah you know, yeah, or you the Higher ED expert,
but I know well, And.

Speaker 6 (52:36):
I was just going to say, this isn't even about
Higher D the organization up that I was cheering a
few years back on Project Higher Red. Our focus was
on preparing families for college. But where our ultimate goal
was to begin in fourth grade. We started out working
in the high schools to start preparing for students and family,

(53:00):
but our ultimate goal was to work backwards all the
way back to like to like fourth grade, because that's
where you start to lose black boys is around fourth
grade is when they start to diverge and wait from education.
So the focus, the goal was let's let's get there
and get into schools and try and work this program.

Speaker 2 (53:19):
Right there so we can catch them on that on
the front end.

Speaker 4 (53:22):
Oh yeah, black for black biles, it's a long standing thing,
but I'm suggesting that they were the canary in the
coal mine thirty years ago. Right, what was Jawanza Khan
Jufu's book, you know, the Conspiracy to Destroy Black Boys.

Speaker 5 (53:38):
And I think that from based out of Chicago.

Speaker 4 (53:42):
Whatever, but I think we're seeing that amongst even white
males now, yeah, and that like, I don't even want
to get political here, but that's part of what what
I think we're seeing to play out.

Speaker 6 (53:57):
And I think the political is inevitable because you know,
it's all tied together, the social and political, the economic.
But to your point, this is a true example of
America trying to hurt us and hurting everybody. That's the
historical reality we're living with right now too, politically, economically,
socially in this very moment.

Speaker 2 (54:17):
But this is just another example of that. And you're right, and.

Speaker 6 (54:21):
I think social media all technologies allowing us to see
it a lot more clearly and a lot more upfront.
To your point, this is thirty forty years back. You know,
this isn't just happening right now. It's generational, right. We
see the difference from our generation to the generations that
came after us. And I think this goes to that
ultimate question as it pertains to black boys and black

(54:44):
young black.

Speaker 2 (54:45):
Men, is Yes, the college is important.

Speaker 6 (54:48):
The technical the technical skills are important that when you're
looking at the careers of the future, AI is everywhere, right,
a lot of different A lot of jobs in the
past are going to di suppere for better or for worse,
but the other jobs are going to emerge because when
the technology comes, there's always got to be humans in

(55:08):
the mix. AI is only as effective as the humans
that use it, So there's always going to be a
need for advanced education tied to technology. There's no avoidance,
and we got to get our young voice on that
path so that they're not working the worst of the
worst jobs that are non tech jobs.

Speaker 2 (55:31):
You know, that's my opinion.

Speaker 1 (55:34):
No, that's great, and I mean, you know, part of
that comes into play again as to does it have
to be college? You know, so we know that the
cost of college these days is just astronomical and the
debt that they see later just as prohibitive as well.
So it makes it difficult to follow those paths unless

(55:55):
you're going into a profession that really is going to
require that basic that basis of knowledge and understanding. So
this is beyond just the aspect of just natural growth, understanding,
relationship building, critical thinking that we all felt that we
got from college in and of itself. It was a
matter of growing without having it but we also got

(56:17):
your path career path exactly well.

Speaker 4 (56:22):
But I think I don't think college is for everybody, right, No,
it's not, it's not right. I think there is a
very small group of people that will benefit from going
to college, and it's just a little controversial, but I
think that the number of people is actually getting.

Speaker 5 (56:41):
Smaller and not growing.

Speaker 4 (56:43):
I think that there are so many alternatives to going
like to for your college or whatever. Yeah, I think
you can go to trade school or even an apprenticeship. Yeah,
but you know, like you could go you could go
become and out of way make a whole lot more
money than people who got.

Speaker 5 (57:05):
A traditional college degree.

Speaker 3 (57:06):
And a lot of areas.

Speaker 6 (57:07):
Yeah, college college isn't just about the money, particularly you
guess partic but for a lot of people, right, they
don't have the luxury of not being it not being
about anything other than the money.

Speaker 5 (57:20):
And so if you can get out of a trade
school or like a community college, community.

Speaker 2 (57:27):
College, community college is still college and so.

Speaker 3 (57:30):
Where you're still it is the same.

Speaker 6 (57:34):
It is the same thing ultimately because the credits transfer, right,
So when you get there to people.

Speaker 4 (57:40):
Who are terminal community college students, right, everybody doesn't want
to go to for your college.

Speaker 2 (57:45):
I'm not saying you go to one.

Speaker 6 (57:46):
I'm saying you get an associate's degree, and you still
that's still moving you on a career path.

Speaker 2 (57:50):
That's community college.

Speaker 5 (57:53):
Associate.

Speaker 4 (57:54):
But it's an associate's degree to go, for example, become
an iron worker, or to get an associates, to become.

Speaker 9 (58:02):
Or to become a confer or, to become a conferen
or a police officer, any level of any kind of
law enforcement off a million things you could do other
than going to college and getting a degree in.

Speaker 6 (58:14):
History, right, But nobody's talking about just a degree in history.
I'm just talking about college in general. It's just as
an example. But I mean, even to be a cop,
as opposed to what a socialist degree.

Speaker 4 (58:27):
As opposed to going to college and getting what other degree,
like what engineering.

Speaker 6 (58:31):
Or something or what I was said, to be a cop,
you still have to have an associate's degree in a
lot of places.

Speaker 2 (58:37):
So that's still so.

Speaker 6 (58:38):
That's going less and less, by the way, No, that's
actually going up more and more. It used to be
that more that a lot of colleges. I mean that
a lot of law enforcement agencies didn't require more than
a so literally, what we're saying around.

Speaker 3 (58:50):
Is more bachelor's degrees.

Speaker 4 (58:51):
I mean literally just passed a bill that's hiring ten
thousand ice officers.

Speaker 6 (58:58):
Federal hundred thousand dollars. That's on the federal level. Most
cops are not on the federal level. Most cops are.

Speaker 4 (59:05):
I'm trying to suggest to you that this is where
it's going. It's literally they're literally eliminating those kinds of qualifications.

Speaker 5 (59:14):
And I'm saying that.

Speaker 2 (59:15):
It's short when you use ICE as an example, I
think that's short term.

Speaker 5 (59:20):
Ten thousands they got.

Speaker 9 (59:22):
No.

Speaker 6 (59:22):
I mean this lowering of standards right because I think
that's the more that's that's liberary.

Speaker 4 (59:29):
I think it's a theoretical thing that you are saying
may change.

Speaker 5 (59:33):
I'm telling you what it is right now.

Speaker 10 (59:35):
I'm telling you them are actually all of them are
changing in a way that's fundamentally, uh de emphasizing outside
of Illinois, the importance of a college degree.

Speaker 5 (59:47):
That's just like undeniable.

Speaker 1 (59:49):
That's what I just do. The ICE as an example
at this time, I agree with that, GK. I think
that's what's going on at this time. But I think
that's by a lot of no, y'all missing it.

Speaker 5 (01:00:02):
This is why.

Speaker 4 (01:00:02):
But this is the point I'm trying to make. The
crisis that we're talking about not just amongst black males.
The crisis now is bigger than black males, the crisis
amongst white men. And this is why the so called
lowering of standards is happening. White males are not going
to college in the same way that they used to,

(01:00:23):
and so they understand that, and so they are de emphasizing,
like even in Chicago now, jobs that you used to
like needed to college degree for they eliminated the federal government.

Speaker 5 (01:00:35):
Not just ice, they're.

Speaker 4 (01:00:37):
Eliminating the need of the college degree. This is very intentional.
It is very connected to the fact that white males
aren't going not because black males aren't going to college,
but because white males too are starting.

Speaker 5 (01:00:49):
To not go to college too.

Speaker 4 (01:00:51):
And so those jobs that they're hiring people for, those
are six figure jobs, they're not.

Speaker 5 (01:00:56):
They're not you.

Speaker 4 (01:00:57):
Know what we used to think of as like jobs
that nobody wanted, people want them now. But I think
what I was trying to argue is the way the
way in which the old rules around college aren't applicable

(01:01:17):
for the future. And I think that's not a statement
against its actual value. It's a statement about what's actually happening,
which to me is not good.

Speaker 3 (01:01:28):
By the way. It's a it's a we.

Speaker 4 (01:01:32):
Need people who are able to do all the things
that we mentioned earlier, including critical skills, all of all
of all the six things you mentioned, John, which is
why people go to should go to college. I just
think the country is far more of the race to
the bottom than we realize.

Speaker 3 (01:01:50):
Right, I see what you're saying.

Speaker 1 (01:01:55):
I get what you're saying, because if I look at it,
even from a medical standpoint, what do we see. We're
seeing more position assistance nurse practitioners that are in essence
taking the role as if they had a medical degree,
as society is in almost accepting that as okay, that's.

Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
All financially and politically driven.

Speaker 3 (01:02:26):
I agree.

Speaker 6 (01:02:27):
This is it's to set up to it's to set
up to create more stupid consumers, is what this is
all about. We want dumb people who buy stuff, who
work for who work hard. I mean we're seeing it
with this this current administration. Right, they're trying to turn
the clock back. We want to create the only kind

(01:02:48):
of jobs. We want to create. Their manual labor jobs
or jobs that are going to benefit corporate American, you
know what, and what else we can do, Hey, let's
just create let's just let's we're going to create new criminals.

Speaker 3 (01:03:03):
So all these.

Speaker 6 (01:03:03):
Kinds of things so that we can create more opportunities
for corporate America to make money, right, and let's let's
dumb down the population. So to your point, Greg, yeah,
they're trying to create. They're trying to make it harder
for people to go to college. They're trying to disincentivise it.
They're trying to convince people that there's something wrong with
those who do go to college. Right, you know, you're

(01:03:26):
woke or whatever. You know, they've totally convoluted the true
meaning of that word so effectively. But all of this stuff,
to your point, it's designed to create, in my mind,
just stupid consumers and and willing and and and driving
the prices up on everything.

Speaker 3 (01:03:43):
Right.

Speaker 6 (01:03:43):
So if all we got our physicians assistance, everybody's gonna
be fine with it, right, Why Because I need something
to keep me, help keep me alive. And it's just
they're plain and simple, right, And so I'm going to
accept whatever you give me.

Speaker 2 (01:03:59):
You know, while while the uber wealthy.

Speaker 6 (01:04:01):
Have the best doctors besides John because he wouldn't work
for them.

Speaker 1 (01:04:05):
Right, that's it right there, So yeah, so I think
you know, it sounds like I was.

Speaker 3 (01:04:15):
Going to trust, but we don't.

Speaker 2 (01:04:19):
Oh did I?

Speaker 3 (01:04:21):
Every now and then it's I was to be clear
about something.

Speaker 4 (01:04:26):
I'm not like saying these are like great yes, right, right,
like identifying the direction in which is going. I'm not
saying he's a good thing, right, And you're very correct, Holloway.
The idea is to create more consumers and less critical thinking.

Speaker 3 (01:04:48):
That's it. That's it exactly so, but it's not bad.

Speaker 2 (01:04:52):
It's trades are important.

Speaker 6 (01:04:55):
I think the future there needs to be one of
the things that we're saying, you know, our spaces that
we're seeing that education is coming from all kinds of
different directions. Even last year that are Regional Credit a
Higher Learning Commission their annual conference, they talked a lot
about non traditional education, right certificates, the fact that universities

(01:05:16):
aren't the only ones granted degrees now there are all
kinds of private companies that are involved in education, right,
and ultimately, education in all kinds of forms are a
good thing, especially if they're teaching people how to think
and how to learn. Trade schools, Like I said, we've
got programs that are you know, we've got boot camps

(01:05:37):
for like the cyber stuff and all kinds of certifications
and all of that kind of stuff. But the most
successful ones tend to marry the technical with those soft skills,
with those liberal arts skills that were ultimately important to success, right,

(01:05:57):
that ability to communicate effectively, to right effectively, to think effectively,
to question things. If you can marry that with that
technical skill.

Speaker 2 (01:06:07):
So the non.

Speaker 6 (01:06:08):
Traditional degree, I don't the four year degree really isn't
for everybody. I mean a lot of schools now there
are now three year bachelor's degree because people that's becoming
a lot more in vogue now and your creditors are
approving them. And that's because it's all about those core skills, right.
We don't need to do it in as much time, right,

(01:06:30):
And so it's kind of the bridge between the associates
and that traditional associates and the bachelors we're getting in
that shortened period of time, because these things are still important,
I think even you know, the landscape is changing, Yeah,
different systemic barriers pop up. The money is always going
to be an issue on some level because we've got

(01:06:52):
a system that's designed.

Speaker 2 (01:06:53):
To keep people out.

Speaker 6 (01:06:55):
Right, same thing healthcare and education to the same thing
right American history. The prices went up because we had
to try and keep black folks out right. The healthcare
system is designed the way it is designed because it
was set up to we have to charge this stuff.
So if we charge, if we set prices right here,
black folks can't pay for it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:16):
You know, it was I mean, this is all in
the history. It was.

Speaker 6 (01:07:18):
It was all laid out in the same way we
like in law schools. Even the American Bar Association and
things like that, the different they were. They were the
ones who pushed for the bar exam and things like that.
To why to try and limit access. All of this
stuff has been designed to keep to keep people out
and which says to me, which says they want they

(01:07:42):
don't want us to vote why because it's important. They
don't want us to read? Why because it's important. All
of these things that historically we have been they've tried
to keep us out of, are the things we have
to insist our way into.

Speaker 3 (01:07:55):
Mm I agree, well, I go to this college. QUI
should I go back to my.

Speaker 4 (01:08:02):
Favorite class in college, and there's no lack hit. I
can't even make it up my favorite class by far.
It was two part Hunt syric class, and the first
semester I got a A. I didn't take the second one,
but it was called an Introduction to the political Left

(01:08:26):
for some variation, and it's the most important, like my
favorite class in college, but I can't imagine paying forty
to fifty.

Speaker 5 (01:08:37):
Thousand dollars today to take that class. Right, like it.

Speaker 4 (01:08:44):
For a particular moment in history, it had value to
me doing it, along with some other things. But I
just think that for a liberal arts education like the
one I had to tell people that they're going to
pay fifty sixty g's or more for that, it's a

(01:09:06):
hard thing to do. And I think that it's a
mistake if we think that everyone has to take take that.

Speaker 6 (01:09:14):
Yeah, but you hold it into a liberal arts degree,
and so I think I think that's what that's important though, Right, That's.

Speaker 4 (01:09:21):
What I asked the question earlier about if you're hearing student,
it's a different If you're an engineering student at the
University of Illinois, that's a different kind of education than
if you're a sociology student.

Speaker 6 (01:09:33):
Yeah, completely right, right, yeah, And so that's because it's
that's because now college has been very successfully.

Speaker 2 (01:09:42):
That's all it's been. It's tied to career path that
was whereas in the past. But that's what.

Speaker 4 (01:09:48):
No, that's to you, Halloween, you want you got into
the u of II as an engineer student.

Speaker 5 (01:09:54):
I got into the University of Bio.

Speaker 6 (01:09:56):
I graduated as a liberal large student, and I got
a political science But.

Speaker 5 (01:10:01):
I college already know that.

Speaker 4 (01:10:04):
I'm explaining to you that was forty damn year years ago,
and I'm saying it's only gotten more exhaust.

Speaker 2 (01:10:11):
I'm with you. I'm saying the political science degree by
itself was worthless.

Speaker 6 (01:10:16):
The only the only value that but and so, but
but then but but the cost of the cost of living,
the cost of education, all of those costs were so
much lower than right compared to now. I mean, a
basic house in Chicago costs almost what three hundred thousand dollars,
whereas thirty years ago it was seventy thousand or fifty thousand,

(01:10:36):
and so and that that changes the focus so much,
because that career, that degree that didn't have a direct
career path for me. The only path it has was
law school, right right, I started changed, I made that decision.
I wanted to go to law school, so I changed
to political science because it was a less challenging path

(01:10:57):
than trying to be an engineering student going.

Speaker 3 (01:10:59):
To law school.

Speaker 6 (01:11:01):
But if I had just that political science degree, trying
to go get a job then or now, that's a challenge.
But now it's a much greater challenge when you're talking
about seventy thousand dollars in debt versus when I was
at the u of my undergraduate tuition was about two
thousand dollars a year, right, so that was you know,
that was eight thousand dollars versus what it is now.

Speaker 2 (01:11:23):
So it's very dependent on that career path. So I think, ultimately,
and that's the challenge.

Speaker 6 (01:11:30):
There's two components to it, yep, am I looking at
a college degree for a career path or am I
looking at it just for general learning? And that general
learning piece has been destroyed because of cost. Unless you're
unless you're wealthy, you don't get to go to college
to discover yourself anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:11:47):
I don't get to go to college.

Speaker 6 (01:11:49):
To learn and just explore, you know, Russian literature or
something like that the average person. And that's to that
point of the black men, most black men and don't
have that financial wherewithal to pick to go down that
path where I can.

Speaker 2 (01:12:05):
Choose to study French literature or even like I did.

Speaker 6 (01:12:08):
A big chunk of my undergrad was I fashioned my
own degree, right. My major was political science, but my
minor was African and African American Studies. I took African languages,
I took African history. I took about eight semesters of French,
so I could read African you know, authors in French exactly. So,

(01:12:31):
but that kind of stuff you can't afford to do now.

Speaker 2 (01:12:34):
I was in state.

Speaker 6 (01:12:36):
My law school tuition was thirty five hundred dollars a
year at one of the top twenty law schools in
the nation because it was a state school, you know. So,
I mean, the finances have totally jacked things up, But
I still think the ultimate answer is yes, where where

(01:12:58):
we can and where it eventually makes sense. One of
the things I was a student at this past graduation.
A few weeks back, he pulled me to the side
and he said, he said, I have a question for you.
He said, I'm trying to decide on graduate school where
I should go.

Speaker 2 (01:13:14):
And I said, the.

Speaker 6 (01:13:15):
Thing I always tell students is when you're checking, when
you're picking an undergrad, I said, you picked. I said,
you picked the best school you can afford. I said,
you picked. I said, you picked a good school, but
don't spend a whole lot of money on it. I said,
spend your money on grad school. I said, try to
go to the best grad school you can go to
in that particular program area. I said, but as far
as undergrad, I said, you just getting a degree. So

(01:13:36):
you're trying to pick if you if your goal is
to go on further, Yeah, I said, you want to
save money in that undergraduate degree, right, and try to
go to the best program you can for graduate school.

Speaker 2 (01:13:50):
Right, you know?

Speaker 1 (01:13:51):
And I think undergrad is that part that we've been saying,
it's part of it is part of your growth and
maturity and understand and of life as well. That doesn't
have to be an expensive course for you to do
that though as well.

Speaker 6 (01:14:06):
Yeah, and it doesn't have to be going away to school,
which I think for a lot of people adser to
that expense, which.

Speaker 4 (01:14:13):
I think is a whole different is because I have
the school of if you go away. Yeah, yeah, someone
told me it's better you better off, you know, being
from scott you better off. And that tuition that first year,
the first semester, then paying for lawyers.

Speaker 5 (01:14:33):
It's like, oh, you got me.

Speaker 4 (01:14:35):
You know.

Speaker 6 (01:14:35):
The thing I used to say all the time was
the if we weren't on a college campus, we might
have been dead m h in late eighties.

Speaker 11 (01:14:47):
Exactly, that's exactly later early nineties, and not just because
life was happening, but also because of how we were
acting as college students.

Speaker 2 (01:14:59):
It's a good thing we were on a college campus.

Speaker 5 (01:15:03):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:15:03):
I couldn't imagine I couldn't have imagined being a college freshman,
say at DePaul at Chicago State. I'm being in the
city of Chicago, being in downtown trying to be a
freshman in college, versus being on a college campus in
a college town where everything was centered around that university.

(01:15:26):
It was a totally different experience. I think that it
would have been trying to be an urban college student
in the eighties.

Speaker 3 (01:15:34):
Well, I doubt you.

Speaker 2 (01:15:37):
I mean your field, That's what I'm saying. We were
in the cornfields. It was nothing there but college town.
You were in the city.

Speaker 1 (01:15:45):
I was in the city, but but on campus, we
just had we had all of that going on.

Speaker 2 (01:15:54):
You still had a campus. To us, you are still campus.

Speaker 6 (01:15:57):
Most of the Chicago schools, most of the city colleges
and in Chicago schools at the time didn't have a
true campus like that, you know, where you had like
dorms and all of the campus buildings.

Speaker 3 (01:16:09):
You all had a big chunk of land just.

Speaker 2 (01:16:11):
Like we had.

Speaker 3 (01:16:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:16:14):
Right, It's just that ours was flopped in in a farm.
Yours was rocked right in d C, right in the
heart of things. But you still have the stay camps
the same with morehouse you know, ye there is there
were walls, you know what I'm saying, right.

Speaker 3 (01:16:30):
Right, that's true. That's true, I folks.

Speaker 4 (01:16:35):
But that the point the question still remains around. Like
the golden ticket college was for us, or at least
I think we saw it that way. I don't know
if it's a golden ticket anymore. I think it's a
eight ticket.

Speaker 3 (01:16:52):
I don't think it.

Speaker 6 (01:16:53):
I think it was kind of turnish for us to
I mean, honestly, some of the gold had already started
rubbing off in any respects. You know, it might have
been a bronze ticket or a silver ticket. But yeah,
I think now that bad feeling is some nice, some
nice dark wood. Uh fun.

Speaker 4 (01:17:12):
The University of Iowa back then had no tuition for
in state students when I started.

Speaker 6 (01:17:19):
Oh wow, for there was and they didn't and they
didn't and they didn't have tuition, and uh, minority students
were getting at law school when I when I talked
to the bend of the law school when I was
when I was a senior, and he asked me what
my l SAD score was.

Speaker 2 (01:17:34):
I told him.

Speaker 6 (01:17:35):
He said, he said, you come on right now, no tuition.
But they did the same thing at Illinois. That's why
I stayed in Illinois. All of the minority students at
that time got a tuition in fee waiver, so none
of us had to pay tuition. That's gone well, had

(01:17:55):
I said, And in law school I didn't. I didn't
have an undergrade.

Speaker 3 (01:17:59):
But yeah, yeah, that's it's going right.

Speaker 2 (01:18:04):
It's those barriers.

Speaker 3 (01:18:06):
Yeah, yes's it?

Speaker 2 (01:18:09):
So, yeah, I agree with you.

Speaker 6 (01:18:11):
I don't think it's I don't think it's I don't
think it's the golden ticket that it was.

Speaker 2 (01:18:16):
I think it can be.

Speaker 6 (01:18:18):
I think I think it can be I think it's
still is life changing. I see it all the time.
And I'll just give this last example at this past graduation,
so I can go back to like August fifteenth, we
had are fourteenth we had at one of my schools,
and we got a lot of doctoral students, right, a
lot of doc graduates. And I sent you guys pictures

(01:18:40):
from the graduation. I met one of your frat brothers.
Just that that was the coolest part of it for
me because these were these were new doctors, right, doctor
of this and doctor of that. So I was just
walking around the room saying congratulations doctor all day long
to all of these black and brown faces.

Speaker 2 (01:18:56):
So that's that taking it to that to that ultimate level.
It was so cool to my sister was walking down
the hole.

Speaker 6 (01:19:01):
I say congratulations doctor, and she just kind of possible moment.
It was like wow, it just got real just like that,
and I was like yeah, because you know, they hadn't
heard anyone. I was like, you've earned that, you know.
But that's again, that's taking it to that extreme level.
But the opportunity to celebrate with them that high level
achievement is.

Speaker 3 (01:19:18):
Just so cool. It's so cool.

Speaker 6 (01:19:20):
But that alone isn't reason enough to say, yes, it's
the golden ticket. But for me, it's the best part
of the job. So we're gonna wrap on this one
because you know, I think we touched on a lot
of different things, but mentorship in whatever form is critical.

Speaker 3 (01:19:36):
Right.

Speaker 6 (01:19:37):
We didn't necessarily experience it in its fullest capacity when
we were coming up. We've had opportunities, I think, to
be mentors and to engage in mentorship ourselves. And the
ultimate importance of it for our community, the benefit that
it brings to the younger brothers, to the less experienced
brothers who are moving into these positions, that we have

(01:19:58):
opportunities to impact lives.

Speaker 3 (01:20:00):
I think we should do it whenever we can can
offer this too.

Speaker 4 (01:20:04):
I think we need we need to develop a shared
understanding by what we mean by mentorship, because I don't
I think we you know, the more we talked about it,
the more I realize that we don't. I don't know
that we're all that we all talk about the same thing.
We can use the word mentor mentorship, and maybe that

(01:20:26):
helps us, Yeah, because at least that can align us
on the path.

Speaker 6 (01:20:30):
Right if we're all thinking of but if we're using
this word, but we're doing five different things, then it's
not as an effective an effort. So I agree with you.
For the audience, What does it mean to be a mentor?
What do you think a mentor is? What have been
your mentor experiences? Have you mentored? Have you been a mentee?
What was the benefits that you got from?

Speaker 3 (01:20:49):
You need one?

Speaker 4 (01:20:51):
You need one? Is it important to you? Do you
know of other people who think they need them?

Speaker 3 (01:20:56):
Right? For the older brothers? Who are you mentor? Ring?

Speaker 6 (01:21:00):
You know, if there are opportunities, are you willing to
step up? What can you bring to the table? What
experiences do you have to add to this mix? You know,
m because there's a lot of young people like screwed right?

Speaker 3 (01:21:15):
What do you know over?

Speaker 6 (01:21:18):
And you know I've been that person too, because you
know I've said this a million times. Great, there's too
many growing up in Chicago Land and looking at Chicago
politics especially, have always said that the old heads are
always trying to hold on to power for themselves and
not doing enough of the mentoring, not doing enough of
the bringing the younger brothers along. They're supposed to be
the advisors now advising the young warriors to come in

(01:21:39):
there and do their thing, and so I think that's
been a gap for us. I think politically in Chicago, Land,
I've seen that personally otherwise and national nationally we see
that as well, right, we saw.

Speaker 5 (01:21:51):
The young young folks have to be open.

Speaker 3 (01:21:53):
Yeah, that's a two way. Yeah, so you've got a connection, yeah, yeah, definitely.

Speaker 6 (01:22:02):
Well, we thank you all for listening. We appreciate your comments.
When you write in, we bad we won't be going
this long again.

Speaker 2 (01:22:13):
If God willing, we'll be around a little more in
the future.

Speaker 11 (01:22:19):
Take care of great conversation, Take care, Thank you.

Speaker 5 (01:22:23):
pH