September 3, 2024 • 40 mins
Rebeca speaks with Dr. Betsy Brothers, a practicing OB-GYN physician in Florida, regarding the medical truth about abortions, statistics, and what's happening on the front line of medical care in the State of Florida concerning the reproductive health of Florida's women. She is shocked by some of the information Dr. Brothers shares.
Rebeca also shares how the Right to Life show is responding to Governor Desantis' declaration of October 6 as "Protect Life Sunday." Be sure to pick up your Right to Life t-shirt and plan to wear it in a church of your choice on October 6 and through to November 5. You can find them on the podcast's website at https://righttolifestories.com.
If you'd like to support the production of this show, please Venmo your support to @The1CStoryNetwork, or go to the website for information on how to support the show through its GoFundMe or via other methods.
Rebeca also shares how the Right to Life show is responding to Governor Desantis' declaration of October 6 as "Protect Life Sunday." Be sure to pick up your Right to Life t-shirt and plan to wear it in a church of your choice on October 6 and through to November 5. You can find them on the podcast's website at https://righttolifestories.com.
If you'd like to support the production of this show, please Venmo your support to @The1CStoryNetwork, or go to the website for information on how to support the show through its GoFundMe or via other methods.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Rebeca (00:10):
I'm Rebeca Seitz, and this is right
to Life.
Please allow me to begin with an apology. It's been a
minute since our last episode, and the reasons for that are
twofold. One, I've been working
hard to raise funds to keep this show on the air.
(00:33):
We are not supported by any of the groups
that are working for or against amendment four in
Florida to take money from them. Could look
like we're trying to get their messaging out, and that's just
not what this show exists to do. We're here
to provide information. That's it.
What you do with that information is up to
(00:53):
you. This show is mostly
funded internally by the one 1C Story Network
and a handful of individuals who believe in getting
information into voters hands.
Second, Covid hit my house
hard. This strain is no joke,
friend. I was down for a full week and
(01:15):
I'm still a bit of a coughing mess. Y'all take good,
care out there. But finally,
we were able to scrape together enough support
and recover from covert to the point that I could
sit down with doctor Betsy Brothers. She's
an ob gyn here in Naples, and she had some
startling facts to share.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (01:35):
Things like, women are more than
twice as likely to die in states with severe
abortion restrictions.
Those states with the most restrictive laws
have among the worst across 32 measures
on women's health.
>> Rebeca (01:51):
Can you believe that? Presumably the new
laws restricting abortion were done in order to
save lives. And yet the stats show that
these laws are literally doubling
maternal mortality. But
doctor brothers had even more stats.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (02:09):
The United States has the highest maternal mortality
of any high income country,
22 per hundred thousand
births. In those states with
restrictive abortion laws,
51 women die per every
hundred thousand live births.
>> Rebeca (02:27):
There is so much more from my conversation with Doctor
brothers, and I'm honored to share it with you
here on the fifth episode of Right
to Life.
>> Producer (02:48):
Doctor Betsy Brothers, thank you so much for coming on the right to
Life show. Well, thank you for inviting me and
thank you for rescheduling with me while I got over Covid. Our
regular listeners will probably hear that my voice does not quite
sound like my voice right now. I'm not completely
recovered, but I'm not contagious. So it's okay for us to be in
this segment.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (03:07):
We're sitting about 20ft away from each other and,
let's be as safe as we can.
>> Producer (03:11):
So let's. If we could begin with just you sharing your
background, your educational background, and.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (03:16):
Your work background with the audience, I'm happy to, I'm
an ob gyn. And I am
from New Orleans, Louisiana. I trained at LSU. I
did my undergraduate. Go tigers, at LSU, Baton
Rouge. And then went to LSU medical school. And
from there, I completed my residency at Vanderbilt
University. And from 1989 to
(03:36):
1993, was, a resident there, raised
my family there. And, we were there for 13
years and then moved down to Naples.
I did have a private practice in Tennessee. And
then, came here in 2001 and started private
practice in obstetrics and gynecology.
>> Producer (03:53):
Wow. And you're affiliated with which
most people know? We have two hospital groups here in Naples.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (03:58):
Correct. Collier, the, nch.
There's, a downtown campus and then the north Collier campus.
And so I'm affiliated with that. And do deliveries there that does all
of the women's services. And interestingly,
now, we are the only hospital in Collyer
county that does women's and children's services.
>> Producer (04:16):
Oh, wow. I didn't know that.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (04:17):
I know.
>> Producer (04:18):
Okay. All right, so let's just get down
to brass tacks, because people who have listened to this show for
a little while understand that my goal with the show
is simply to get my hands on information. We're not here
to tell people how to vote or how to think or any of that. I'm just trying to
get some information. And a lot of it is information
I did not have in my background of growing up the way
(04:38):
that I did. So, one of the things I did not
know Washington, exactly what are the
types of abortion that exist and when are they
used?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (04:48):
Okay, we, use the word
abortion, in maybe a different way that
people traditionally think of it. For example, a
miscarriage, to us, can be a spontaneous
abortion or an incomplete abortion when
you have a partial miscarriage. So, in our traditional
view, we look at any loss of a
pregnancy, as an abortion. So I don't know
(05:10):
if anybody has that experience, being a listener where people
have referred to it in that way. But for the sake of this
conversation, we'll assume that it is an
elective termination of a pregnancy, for whatever
reason. So the two types, ah, are
a medical termination of pregnancy,
which is done with medication. the other is a surgical
(05:30):
termination, which is done, through a d and
c. Those are each determined by
how far along a pregnancy can be. If it's before
ten weeks, then you can have a safe medical
termination after that. then we do a surgical
termination with the d and c. So, medical.
>> Producer (05:46):
Termination, that's like mefopristone
morning after pill.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (05:50):
The morning after pill actually just prevents a
pregnancy from happening. So the morning after pill
is not an abortifact. It is just simply
giving progesterone. There is never,
any implantation or there's. Yeah, that's not
considered an abortifact.
>> Producer (06:06):
Whereas methopressone actually causes
an abortion. Right.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (06:10):
So for the medical termination of a pregnancy,
that's of a recognized pregnancy, then you have
the, cytotec and the mephopristone. Correct.
>> Producer (06:17):
Got it.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (06:18):
Mesoprostyl mephopristone.
>> Producer (06:19):
And that's the most common. Well,
prior to the laws changing, that was probably the most
common type of abortion, Right?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (06:27):
Not necessarily, no. That's actually, was maybe
20%. Now is up to, I think 56% is
medical terminations.
>> Producer (06:34):
Okay.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (06:34):
So it's really, really gained a lot of,
traction.
>> Producer (06:38):
Okay. So it's the most common now nowadays. Got it.
Got it. And then the second most, I guess, would be the d and c that you have. Correct.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (06:44):
The d and cs.
>> Rebeca (06:44):
I understand.
>> Producer (06:45):
And how far along?
Like, where's the cutoff of where you can have a d and c?
>> Rebeca (06:51):
Or is there a cutoff?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (06:53):
Circumstances are everything. So over
95% of. Prior to Roe v.
Wade, when we have the most data, 90,
5% of terminations of pregnancy were done before 13 weeks
gestation. only 1%
was done in the
late second trimester. Early. So it's a
vast, vast majority are done before 13 weeks
(07:16):
gestation. And a pregnancy is 40
weeks.
>> Rebeca (07:20):
Really? Okay, sorry.
>> Producer (07:22):
Because, I mean, in the movement that I grew up in,
we were told, I guess the messaging was that
abortions were happening in the third trimester.
That the majority of abortions were happening in this third
trimester. And you're saying no, no, no.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (07:36):
Absolutely not. Absolutely not.
>> Producer (07:38):
M. Did you say 90%?
>> Rebeca (07:40):
95% correct.
>> Producer (07:42):
Are happening before 13 weeks?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (07:43):
13 weeks.
>> Rebeca (07:45):
I want to pause here for a second so that this information
has a chance to sink in. If you are
like me, with the majority of your information coming
from the pro Life movement, then this information
is likely shocking. I
remember graphics of babies being partially born and
jammed in the neck with scissors. I remember being told
(08:05):
that millions of late term abortions were happening.
So many that it sounded like the vast
majority of abortions happened in the third
trimester. But the statistics
show that this is untrue.
Doctor brothers just set us straight.
95% of abortions
happen before 13
(08:27):
weeks. 13
weeks. I voiced my next
thought directly to doctor brothers.
>> Producer (08:37):
Which is before a fetus can survive outside.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (08:40):
Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, really, we consider
24 weeks limits. Of viability.
now, between 22 and 24 weeks
is when we're actually talking to patients who have
premature ruptured membranes or at
risk for rapid delivery. We're offering them the
option to consider, interventions
to, save pregnancy.
>> Producer (09:03):
So let's talk about that for a second. we're getting a little bit ahead of where I
wanted to be, but while we're on this topic, in the
amendment that we're all going to be voting on, you know, it's two
sentences long.
>> Rebeca (09:13):
Let me break in again here and read the two sentences of
the amendment to you. It's important that we know
exactly what the amendment states. The
two sentences.
>> Producer (09:22):
Are.
>> Rebeca (09:22):
These are no law shall
prohibit, penalize, delay,
or restrict abortion before
viability, or when necessary
to protect the patient's health as
determined by the patient's health care provider.
This amendment does not change the legislature's
(09:43):
constitutional authority to require
notification to a parent or guardian
before a minor has an abortion.
So when doctor brothers said that phrase, fetal
viability, I wanted to talk further.
>> Producer (09:57):
About it, and one of the
phrases that is in that first sentence that everyone's
trying to wrap their minds around is fetal
viability, that this would enshrine the right to abortion
in the state constitution up to the point of
fetal viability, as determined by a medical professional. By you?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (10:14):
Correct.
>> Producer (10:14):
And you're saying that that fetal viability
window is typically 22 to 24?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (10:20):
Correct.
>> Producer (10:21):
And what do you look at to determine fetal
viability? What does that mean?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (10:25):
Well, you know, with
advances in NICU care,
the things that are looked at, you know, is
the baby's lungs mature enough? Are the baby's
organs mature enough? Is the gut mature enough? So
our nicu, physicians are
amazing, and the science has been phenomenal
(10:45):
in extending the Life, the viability,
bringing the needle lower and lower. for
example, the Kennedy. One of the Kennedy babies, in the
way back in 1960s, in the early
1960s, died of prematurity,
at about 34 weeks. Gestation.
>> Rebeca (11:01):
Oh, my son was born at 34 weeks.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (11:03):
Wow. Right. Now, you may fact check me on some of these
numbers, but prematurity, and that
was 60 years ago or whatever. So
prematurity, now you go from
34 weeks, and now we consider that equal
to a term baby. As far as morbidity and
mortality, now we're down to 22 weeks,
when their eyes may still be fused, you know,
(11:25):
their skin is transparent, you know,
all those things that it is miraculous
to see the viability, you know, go from
24 to 22 weeks. But I. Intact
viability, you know, will this child ever
get off the ventilator? Will. Those are the things that we have
to counsel parents on when we talk about viability
(11:46):
at 22 weeks.
>> Rebeca (11:47):
So this idea that I'm hearing out there, that
if we were to pass.
>> Producer (11:52):
This amendment, that what we are as a state, in effect
saying is that you can have an abortion up until the day of
delivery. That's not true.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (11:59):
I don't know how that information ever got,
ever got out.
>> Producer (12:03):
Okay, because it.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (12:04):
Cause that's incorrect. That's incorrect.
>> Rebeca (12:08):
The amendment does not
allow for abortion beyond the
point of, fetal viability. And
fetal viability is around 22 to 24 weeks,
as we've just heard doctor brother say. I've
seen some political messaging out there that.
Okay, well, let me just say it frankly. It's lying.
They're lying about this. Let's not
(12:31):
fall for lies coming from either side.
Let's operate in truth. Okay.
The truth is that the amendment would
allow for abortion up to fetal
viability. And fetal viability
is 22 to 24 weeks.
Now let's get back to the conversation.
>> Producer (12:50):
With doctor brothers, because it's
up until fetal viability, as determined
by people like you who have all of the training and the knowledge in
this professionals. Okay? So let
me ask you, you know, one of the things in my background that I
just didn't know and is that abortion is
medically necessary in some cases. We were
(13:10):
taught that it was always just elective to
escape the effects of having willy nilly
sex out there as much as you wanted. That's what we were taught.
So when is it medically
necessary to have. We've heard from a couple of women on the
show when it was medically necessary in their lives. But if you could give us an
idea of how is abortion used
as a medical tool for the Life of the mother or the Life of
(13:33):
the fetus.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (13:34):
So the indications for a termination
of a recognized pregnancy, we look at
either baby or mother. And in the
case of mother, you know, often severe mental
illness can be an indication. Severe, ah,
psychosis, severe depression, would be one
indication for it, cancer. For a
patient who has cancer and finds herself, in the midst
(13:57):
of treatment, she would also. That could
also be an indication. It, can delay treatment if she's
newly diagnosed with cancer during a pregnancy. Ah,
cardiac diseases. There are several cardiac abnormalities
that women have that would cause
complications, would be complicated by a pregnancy.
Medication, certain medications, certain,
(14:17):
exposures, toxic exposures, radiation
exposures could also be it. we also look
at failed contraception in high risk conditions.
So, for example, say a woman has a condition
and it's contraindicated for her to become pregnant and
she has a failed contraception would be another
indication, because.
>> Producer (14:35):
That contraception can affect the growth and
development of.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (14:39):
Well, because it would make, you know, this is someone who has done everything
they can to prevent a pregnancy and has
a medical condition that would
preclude a safe pregnancy.
>> Producer (14:49):
Got it.
>> Rebeca (14:50):
Did you catch all that? She just rattled off
eight different scenarios in which a woman wouldn't be
able to carry a pregnancy to term without it costing her
life, none of which are allowed as
exceptions to Florida's current heartbeat law.
I have to say, the more I've researched this talking with
doctors and attorneys, the more I wonder if
(15:12):
the legislators really have an appreciable
knowledge of all the varying ways that women experience
pregnancy. It's different every
single time our age,
whether we have illnesses like cancer or heart
disease at the time that we get pregnant, whether we're on
other medications to treat mental illnesses, or if we were
(15:32):
taking birth control, or we have a birth control device
implanted, all of these things can affect the
proper development of a fetus.
All those things and more that doctor brothers just
mentioned. We have to navigate through
that every single time that
stick turns pink. We have
to take in all the variables
(15:54):
and make decisions that are best for ourselves
and our families.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (15:59):
And then, of course, we look at the fetal indications
for, termination, which could be
incompatibility with Life, or it could be severe
cardiac disease, chromosome abnormalities, babies
born with severe neurological diseases, meaning they have
no brain, they have an open spinal
cord. They have,
(16:20):
when the egg and the sperm get together and create a human being,
sometimes it just doesn't happen, right? And the
chromosomes, they get extra chromosomes, too few chromosomes,
and they can maybe survive
to a certain point in pregnancy. But at that point,
it would be too late to do an intervention, for
example, leading the mother's Life to be in danger.
(16:40):
Or it could be a condition in
which we know that the
baby could be born, but that would die immediately
after birth. And so those conditions,
would be an option for a mother. We'd, like to offer her
that option to not continue a pregnancy.
>> Producer (16:58):
So when I hear about these, I was
talking with a woman yesterday, and she said, you know, when we talk
about banning abortion, we're not talking about any of those instances,
because those are incredibly rare.
>> Rebeca (17:09):
Are they rare? Everything you just rattled off, do you see
that?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (17:12):
Well, in my world, that's what we see. And
so, as an obstetrician, gynecologist, those
are the conditions that we see. it is not the,
you know, I do have patients that find themselves
pregnant for, you know,
and we're not intended to be pregnant and may choose to go
through a termination, but the ones that I see are those
(17:33):
very conditions.
>> Producer (17:34):
And you have a full practice where you're seeing patients all day, every
day.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (17:37):
Every day.
>> Producer (17:38):
So this isn't a couple women a year, correct. Even in
your practice?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (17:41):
Even in my practice.
>> Producer (17:43):
So when you're. What does that look like
now? When you have patients that are coming
to you and medically they're presenting as needing to have
this option, but in this state they don't.
>> Rebeca (17:54):
What happens now?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (17:55):
Well, so there are
a couple of options that, you know, one, we can refer them out of
state, and that's what's been happening
primarily is they are, they go to our maternal fetal
specialist for confirmation, just to
confirm what we're diagnosing. And,
then they are offered to go out of state.
>> Producer (18:15):
So I know
that the current law says, well, if you can get two
physicians to Right a letter saying that your life
is in danger, then you can have an
abortion. Realistically, as a
physician, does that happen?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (18:31):
So there's a lot of issues,
and this. It's an excellent
question. And we're just now seeing some of the
effects, and they're being written about in the literature
about what is happening to patients in states that have
very restrictive laws. So a lot of our
data is fresh because this
hasn't been around for a long time. But so we're collecting data
(18:53):
from Oklahoma, Mississippi, you know, Texas,
Arkansas, Louisiana, a little bit from Florida now,
because this hasn't been as long as it has been in those
states. A lot of the physicians
and hospitals and emergency rooms
are unprepared
to take care of patients, so they don't. Their first
(19:14):
reaction is to deny them
access to care. So because they're
afraid, because of the draconian laws, because
of imprisoning physicians, they're just afraid
to take care of them. And so when
women come to these clinics or these physicians
or these emergency rooms, even with
(19:34):
medical problems, the physicians are so afraid
that they're going to be put in jail
or charged with civil
crimes that they are referring
these patients, to other states. So
it's. It's led to a, poor
quality of care for our pregnant patients and
(19:55):
fear on the part of our medical community to,
take care of them.
>> Rebeca (20:00):
Doctor brothers, answer here. Reminded me of what
attorney James Chilimy, you'll remember him from episode
two of what he said. He told
us that the law would likely make doctors
and hospitals withhold care rather than run
the risk of breaking the heartbeat law. Because if
they do break the law, they not only are subject
(20:21):
to fines, but also a felony
conviction and five years
in prison. And now we have doctor
brothers, a physician operating in
Florida under the heartbeat law, telling us that
withholding of care is exactly what is
happening.
>> Producer (20:41):
I'm just letting that sink in for a second, because
when I hear.
>> Rebeca (20:44):
About that, you know, I'm a
pro.
>> Producer (20:47):
Life person, which in my world, the definition of
pro Life is that you nurture and care for Life. That is what I mean
when I say I'm pro life. And I have
to believe that the motivation
for passing this law from a lot of the people who are involved in
it was also to nurture and care for Life. But the more
that I find out on the ground from
(21:08):
attorneys and from physicians, it's not.
It's actually putting Life at risk.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (21:13):
There's a lot of data
from the CDC and other organizations that
collect information on abortion, access
to abortion, the numbers of abortions throughout the country,
and what we've actually seen since 2020
is an uptick of abortions over,
the past four years. We have, I think, an
(21:34):
extra 100,000 abortions that are
recorded for the United States
since. Since this change
in the law.
>> Rebeca (21:42):
Really?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (21:43):
Correct. Not only have we increased the number of
abortions, we have also increased the
number of women who have died from
complications of
illegal, abortions and limited access to
care. So not only has it
not been life
saving, it has been
(22:05):
contrary to that, and this is accessible
data.
>> Rebeca (22:08):
Wow.
>> Producer (22:10):
Okay. So sorry. It's
just a lot to wrap my mind around, because I don't quite understand
how we got here legally from a
motivation of let's take care of Life. And we
seem to not seem to. We literally are now under a
law that is not only not caring for Life,
as you say, but is also ending lives and harming
lives.
>> Rebeca (22:30):
I questioned doctor brothers further about this because
it just boggles my mind. I do
believe that most of the people who worked on the heartbeat
law did so from a place of wanting
to protect and nurture Life.
And so to hear that it is doing the
exact opposite requires all of
(22:50):
us who are well intentioned to
pause to try to figure out what's going
on. I mean, we're actually
causing more abortions, more
moms to die. That's what the data is
showing. As we talked it out.
I went back to that thing. We're taught in the pro Life
movement that abortion is mainly used by
(23:12):
people who want to have a lot of sex and not face the
consequences. I asked doctor brothers
about that.
>> Producer (23:20):
So why don't they just not have sex?
That's always the question that gets asked whenever I'm talk,
talking, whenever I talk with people about contraception.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (23:30):
And all I can say is, we are human beings.
>> Producer (23:32):
we are that, you know?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (23:34):
And interestingly,
the teenage portion of
abortions is not significantly
high. It's often married women, it's
often people with. Who already have a child.
It is often, married couples,
but it is often people who are
disadvantaged socially,
(23:56):
financially, economically. Same
thing, and education wise. And often
women who don't necessarily have the control
over their bodies that
we think that we should all have.
For example, women who are in manipulative
relationships, who are in, power
(24:17):
struggle relationships, who are,
sexually abused, assaulted.
>> Producer (24:23):
Even in a marriage, and we don't have
that. As a physician, if you have
a patient come in and they're pregnant as a result of
rape, can you offer them an abortion?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (24:35):
You have? It has to be. If it's after six
weeks, they have to have proof. They have got
to have gone through the legal system. They've got to have
documentation that they were assaulted,
raped, incest. So it can't be someone
who, you know, a college student, for
example, who was maybe date raped, or
a teenager who was assaulted or
(24:58):
raped. Or it can't be someone who just
is in tears in your office with a positive
pregnancy test, who was afraid to tell mom, who was
ashamed, who was fearful of those
things. It has to be somebody who exposes themselves
to the legal system and all of the
ramifications that that means for someone
who has been victimized.
>> Rebeca (25:20):
We went over this, too with attorney Chilemi in episode
two. But to clarify here, the current law
does allow for abortion in the case of rape or incest,
but only if the patient produces the
police report from where she reported the crime.
I just want to speak to you for a second, as a sexual assault
survivor, in that
(25:42):
capacity, I want to say this is
an awful precedent to
set. Most of us
women know that reporting the rape
almost never ends in the rapist
being held accountable in the court system.
According to the rape, abuse and incest national
(26:02):
network, for every thousand
rapes, only seven
result in a felony conviction and only
six in incarceration.
So to force a rape victim to
subject herself to a system that most
likely, most likely
(26:23):
will not get her justice,
to make that the requirement for her to
be able to terminate the pregnancy caused by
her rapist, I personally
think is horrific.
And it could only have been made law
by someone who has never personally
encountered the experience of sexual
(26:46):
assault.
But let's get back to my conversation with doctor brothers.
So, as a physician, m
how did.
>> Producer (26:56):
You find out about this law being passed and that you
could face five years in prison if you performed an
abortion?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (27:05):
Well, it was a big part of our dialogue
in the world of obstetrics. So when
it was. When Roe v. Wade was
first overturned, that was,
you know, a lot of states immediately went into that,
ban, and we
were hopeful that the 15 week ban
(27:27):
would be all there would be, because, as we just discussed,
you know, 95% of terminations of
pregnancy are done before that. And that's
generally. We can see a lot of the anomalies or complications of
pregnancy or take care of women with medical problems before
that. But the six week ban, that was just.
That doesn't allow us to
(27:48):
support our patients,
with these complications.
>> Producer (27:52):
M so
you're saying that we would actually be able.
>> Rebeca (27:58):
You would be able to give better.
>> Producer (28:00):
Care to women
if we did not have this law in
place right now.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (28:06):
Correct.
>> Producer (28:07):
But that you feel like you would probably be able to give the kind of care that
you needed if it was a 15 week or a 22 week or
a whatever.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (28:14):
You know, the circumstances when an advanced
gestation requires a termination is often
because the anomalies, the significant anomalies, or the
complications haven't shown up. And we don't do full
anatomy ultrasounds on some women until they're 20 weeks
pregnant or 18 weeks pregnant. So there
are cases where horrible,
(28:35):
abnormalities are found and a family may choose,
you know, historically, that family could choose
to complete the pregnancy early, do a
termination of pregnancy, but now are forced to continue
that pregnancy through the duration
under the current law.
>> Producer (28:53):
So the idea, going back to the idea of fetal
viability at 22, 23,
24 weeks, wherever that fetal viability
line is, you're telling me that the
majority, if there is something wrong with this
pregnancy, it's been detected most of the time
by the point of fetal viability?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (29:10):
Oh, absolutely, yes. Most of the time. Correct.
>> Producer (29:13):
Okay, so if indeed, in the
amendment that everybody has to vote for the
cutoff is fetal viability, correct. it still
would not allow for abortion after fetal
viability.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (29:24):
Correct.
>> Producer (29:25):
And fetal viability is determined by
you, by a physician.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (29:29):
Correct.
>> Producer (29:29):
Or the actual words are by the patient's
healthcare provider, which is defined in Florida law,
that those words are, I've looked that up, and we'll talk about that on
another episode. The term patient's health
care provider. Healthcare provider is a very clearly defined term in
Florida law. So that's not just anybody that calls themselves
a healthcare provider in the state. and so
(29:50):
you as a physician, you are trained in and know how
to determine fetal viability and have that conversation with the
patient.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (29:56):
We are trained to find for the gestational
age,
assign a due date. Hm. So
as far as the viability goes, you know, as that is
determined by between 22 and 24
weeks, we, can generally define that
period of time. The sooner we can, ah, see a patient, the better, of
course.
>> Producer (30:17):
So talk to me about the impact of this law
on the practice, the Ob g. The practice of Ob
gyn medicine in this state. What is that
looking like for those of us who need access to your services
at some point? Because I cannot fathom being a
physician in obese Ob GyN and,
like, potentially exposing myself to five
(30:37):
years in prison in a felony conviction.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (30:39):
Well, the residency programs, in
those states that do obstetrics and
gynecology are having less success in filling
their spots. there's more of a reluctance of
physicians, of medical, students
and newly, trained doctors to do their
training in a state that highly restricts,
access to abortion. We're also finding that
(31:02):
physicians are coming out now, are not as well trained
in those procedures that are often part of
a normal gyn practice,
so that they're not able to handle
those at risk patients, not just for abortions, but
for normal dncs and those types of procedures.
the other thing that we're doing, certainly,
(31:22):
is the
limited access of medication.
So certain medications that can be considered
abortifax the cytotec and the,
mephistone, misoprostol. So
misoprostol is a medication that we use for a lot of indications,
and we're actually having difficulty getting that from
pharmacies. So there is
(31:44):
some really intrusion
into the doctor patient
relationship, everything from pharmacies and insurance
companies as well.
>> Producer (31:54):
So you're saying we have, we're going to have
a shortage of doctors to even see us through
healthy pregnancies because the doctors aren't coming to these states
to practice.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (32:03):
That is a possibility. In addition, they won't be as
well.
>> Producer (32:06):
Trained because that's what we need, is even
less training to take care of women in medicine.
That's absolutely what we need.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (32:14):
Correct.
>> Producer (32:16):
I learned, the other day that so much of the
medicine that we have even down to ibuprofen and tylenol and all that are
dosages have nothing to do with
women. They're based on the size of the
average male that are dosing of, again,
tylenol and ibuprofen and things like that. We just weren't
considered.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (32:34):
Well, the interesting part of these studies is they
thought that women's bodies were too
variable. You know, we have periods and we have
menopause. And so with that, it was
just much easier to study men, whether it has
to do with heart attacks, with the symptoms of
cardiovascular disease in women, and especially pregnant
women. And so, you know, we clearly don't do studies
(32:57):
on pregnant women, but to the degree that we even
withhold care from pregnant women, you know, it's sometimes hard
to get your teeth cleaned when you're pregnant. Because
of our concerns about.
>> Producer (33:07):
I experienced that, yes.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (33:09):
Of taking care of pregnant women.
>> Producer (33:11):
That's great. So in the reality that we
were already living in that you just described,
it's getting even worse because now there's even less
training.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (33:20):
Right. And there's more fear. There's more fear in the medical
world, to treat pregnant women, especially in
emergencies, emergency settings.
>> Producer (33:27):
And the fear is because of liability.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (33:31):
Well, liability in jail time, you know, so if there's
a patient, for example, even though ectopic
pregnancy is one of the indications for
intervention, and an ectopic pregnancy is a pregnancy outside
the uterus. So there are
emergency rooms that are afraid to take care of these patients because
they're not aware of the laws, and they're just
afraid. And so even though the law does
(33:53):
protect ectopic pregnancy patients,
physicians are still afraid. You know, the PA that you see in the
emergency room may not be aware of the law and so
turns you away.
>> Producer (34:03):
So you said that the law allows for ectopic pregnancy. You're talking
about the emergency, orders that were handed down, because the law itself
does not.
>> Rebeca (34:09):
But those emergency orders that came down.
>> Producer (34:11):
I think it was May 1 or May 2. Let me ask you about those
for a second, because I've been wondering.
Normally, when emergency orders come down from the health department
in Florida, they're only good for 30 days. And, of course, those orders
came down May 1. And as I'm speaking to you, it's.
>> Rebeca (34:25):
The end of August, which would indicate.
>> Producer (34:27):
That those emergency orders have expired.
>> Rebeca (34:30):
But my hope is that they haven't.
>> Producer (34:32):
Somehow magically expired in due course this time. And
we're still operating under them.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (34:36):
We are still operating under them. I have not been made aware
that they have been revised.
>> Producer (34:40):
That was my question. Has there been any sort of
indication to you as a physician that we're nothing is still operating
underneath the emergency orders? Correct.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (34:47):
We are still operating under those.
>> Producer (34:48):
Okay. At least that is good to know.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (34:51):
That is good. Yeah. That was an area of
a lot of, confusion in many
states and really put women's, health and
lives at risk.
>> Producer (35:01):
So let's paint. Let me finish up here and ask you
to paint your blue sky moment.
>> Rebeca (35:07):
As a physician. Is
there.
>> Producer (35:10):
Do you think that there needs to be regulation
of abortion to provide
care and to take care of women in their pregnancies? Do we
even need to be regulating this by law?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (35:22):
absolutely. I think there are. For the safety of the
mother, for, you know, general
societal concerns, and for the, protection
of a baby that is a
viable age. So, absolutely. I do think there
needs to be, oversight
to make sure that, we do, protect our
babies.
>> Producer (35:43):
Is that oversight present in the amendment.
>> Rebeca (35:46):
That we're all voting on?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (35:49):
Amendment four does protect
a viable baby. Correct.
>> Producer (35:55):
Got it. Thank you very much for coming on the show, doctor.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (35:58):
Well, thank you. Thank you.
>> Rebeca (36:03):
You know, when I was preparing to interview Doctor Brothers,
I spoke with some colleagues to learn the questions that they
would want to ask a physician about the heartbeat law.
And more often than not, I not only received
questions, but also astonishment that
a physician was willing to come onto this program.
The fear that Doctor brothers mentioned is
(36:23):
rampant among the medical community in Florida.
Most are keeping their heads down, hoping not to run
afoul of the political winds that brought us here.
I believe her to be very courageous in her
willingness to talk with us today.
As I shared with her, I told her how Emily
and Samantha, from our previous episodes, how they
(36:44):
ended their conversations with me. She
smiled and she said, my name.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (36:50):
Is Betsy brothers, and my patients have a
right to Life.
>> Rebeca (37:03):
There is one more thing I'd like to share with you before
we wrap up today. You might have heard that
Governor DeSantis has declared October 6
as protect Life Sunday here in Florida.
On that day, pastors are expected to
preach on the topic of abortion with an eye
toward having congregants vote no on Amendment
(37:23):
four. The phrase right to
Life is going to be heard from pulpits
across the state on that Sunday and probably
all the Sundays between now and November 5.
But as I continue to learn more and more about
abortion, a, truth is hammered home
to me again and again.
(37:44):
When we say right to Life,
we really need to think about everyone
who has a right to Life. And we don't.
Not in the pro Life community. In that
community, the phrase only applies to
the fetus. But that's not right
because there's a woman's Life at stake,
(38:04):
too. So to balance out the
conversation, we've created t shirts that
ask, does a woman have a right to
Life? On the back of the shirt is that Bible verse
from proverbs that I love, the one that tells us to chase wisdom
and get understanding, because that's what we're
doing here together. That's what
congregations need to do on Sunday, October 6
(38:27):
as well. They need to follow the
biblical directive to chase wisdom
and get understanding. So
I'm encouraging you to get a t shirt and wear it to
a church service on Sunday, October 6.
You can see the shirts and get yours on the
show's website. It's
ripetolifestories.com.
(38:49):
the company that's making these shirts is a black woman
owned company based in Jacksonville, and she
has graciously agreed to provide a portion of the
sales back toward production of this show.
So please head over to
writetolifestories.com comma get
your shirt and wear it to church on Sunday,
October 6. Let's help make
(39:10):
sure that the woman that God
created is not forgotten in our
right to Life rhetoric.
>> Announcer (39:19):
You've been listening to Right to Life on the
one 1C Story Network. If you have a story to
share or would like to learn more, please visit
righttolifestories.com this
show is brought to you by the generous support of people who
value Life. To contribute, visit
righttolifestories.com and click on the
(39:40):
GofundMe icon or get in touch.
>> Singer (39:53):
The one 1C Story Network
for the love of stories.
I'm Rebeca Seitz, and this is right
to Life.
Please allow me to begin with an apology. It's been a
minute since our last episode, and the reasons for that are
twofold. One, I've been working
hard to raise funds to keep this show on the air.
(00:33):
We are not supported by any of the groups
that are working for or against amendment four in
Florida to take money from them. Could look
like we're trying to get their messaging out, and that's just
not what this show exists to do. We're here
to provide information. That's it.
What you do with that information is up to
(00:53):
you. This show is mostly
funded internally by the one 1C Story Network
and a handful of individuals who believe in getting
information into voters hands.
Second, Covid hit my house
hard. This strain is no joke,
friend. I was down for a full week and
(01:15):
I'm still a bit of a coughing mess. Y'all take good,
care out there. But finally,
we were able to scrape together enough support
and recover from covert to the point that I could
sit down with doctor Betsy Brothers. She's
an ob gyn here in Naples, and she had some
startling facts to share.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (01:35):
Things like, women are more than
twice as likely to die in states with severe
abortion restrictions.
Those states with the most restrictive laws
have among the worst across 32 measures
on women's health.
>> Rebeca (01:51):
Can you believe that? Presumably the new
laws restricting abortion were done in order to
save lives. And yet the stats show that
these laws are literally doubling
maternal mortality. But
doctor brothers had even more stats.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (02:09):
The United States has the highest maternal mortality
of any high income country,
22 per hundred thousand
births. In those states with
restrictive abortion laws,
51 women die per every
hundred thousand live births.
>> Rebeca (02:27):
There is so much more from my conversation with Doctor
brothers, and I'm honored to share it with you
here on the fifth episode of Right
to Life.
>> Producer (02:48):
Doctor Betsy Brothers, thank you so much for coming on the right to
Life show. Well, thank you for inviting me and
thank you for rescheduling with me while I got over Covid. Our
regular listeners will probably hear that my voice does not quite
sound like my voice right now. I'm not completely
recovered, but I'm not contagious. So it's okay for us to be in
this segment.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (03:07):
We're sitting about 20ft away from each other and,
let's be as safe as we can.
>> Producer (03:11):
So let's. If we could begin with just you sharing your
background, your educational background, and.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (03:16):
Your work background with the audience, I'm happy to, I'm
an ob gyn. And I am
from New Orleans, Louisiana. I trained at LSU. I
did my undergraduate. Go tigers, at LSU, Baton
Rouge. And then went to LSU medical school. And
from there, I completed my residency at Vanderbilt
University. And from 1989 to
(03:36):
1993, was, a resident there, raised
my family there. And, we were there for 13
years and then moved down to Naples.
I did have a private practice in Tennessee. And
then, came here in 2001 and started private
practice in obstetrics and gynecology.
>> Producer (03:53):
Wow. And you're affiliated with which
most people know? We have two hospital groups here in Naples.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (03:58):
Correct. Collier, the, nch.
There's, a downtown campus and then the north Collier campus.
And so I'm affiliated with that. And do deliveries there that does all
of the women's services. And interestingly,
now, we are the only hospital in Collyer
county that does women's and children's services.
>> Producer (04:16):
Oh, wow. I didn't know that.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (04:17):
I know.
>> Producer (04:18):
Okay. All right, so let's just get down
to brass tacks, because people who have listened to this show for
a little while understand that my goal with the show
is simply to get my hands on information. We're not here
to tell people how to vote or how to think or any of that. I'm just trying to
get some information. And a lot of it is information
I did not have in my background of growing up the way
(04:38):
that I did. So, one of the things I did not
know Washington, exactly what are the
types of abortion that exist and when are they
used?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (04:48):
Okay, we, use the word
abortion, in maybe a different way that
people traditionally think of it. For example, a
miscarriage, to us, can be a spontaneous
abortion or an incomplete abortion when
you have a partial miscarriage. So, in our traditional
view, we look at any loss of a
pregnancy, as an abortion. So I don't know
(05:10):
if anybody has that experience, being a listener where people
have referred to it in that way. But for the sake of this
conversation, we'll assume that it is an
elective termination of a pregnancy, for whatever
reason. So the two types, ah, are
a medical termination of pregnancy,
which is done with medication. the other is a surgical
(05:30):
termination, which is done, through a d and
c. Those are each determined by
how far along a pregnancy can be. If it's before
ten weeks, then you can have a safe medical
termination after that. then we do a surgical
termination with the d and c. So, medical.
>> Producer (05:46):
Termination, that's like mefopristone
morning after pill.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (05:50):
The morning after pill actually just prevents a
pregnancy from happening. So the morning after pill
is not an abortifact. It is just simply
giving progesterone. There is never,
any implantation or there's. Yeah, that's not
considered an abortifact.
>> Producer (06:06):
Whereas methopressone actually causes
an abortion. Right.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (06:10):
So for the medical termination of a pregnancy,
that's of a recognized pregnancy, then you have
the, cytotec and the mephopristone. Correct.
>> Producer (06:17):
Got it.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (06:18):
Mesoprostyl mephopristone.
>> Producer (06:19):
And that's the most common. Well,
prior to the laws changing, that was probably the most
common type of abortion, Right?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (06:27):
Not necessarily, no. That's actually, was maybe
20%. Now is up to, I think 56% is
medical terminations.
>> Producer (06:34):
Okay.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (06:34):
So it's really, really gained a lot of,
traction.
>> Producer (06:38):
Okay. So it's the most common now nowadays. Got it.
Got it. And then the second most, I guess, would be the d and c that you have. Correct.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (06:44):
The d and cs.
>> Rebeca (06:44):
I understand.
>> Producer (06:45):
And how far along?
Like, where's the cutoff of where you can have a d and c?
>> Rebeca (06:51):
Or is there a cutoff?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (06:53):
Circumstances are everything. So over
95% of. Prior to Roe v.
Wade, when we have the most data, 90,
5% of terminations of pregnancy were done before 13 weeks
gestation. only 1%
was done in the
late second trimester. Early. So it's a
vast, vast majority are done before 13 weeks
(07:16):
gestation. And a pregnancy is 40
weeks.
>> Rebeca (07:20):
Really? Okay, sorry.
>> Producer (07:22):
Because, I mean, in the movement that I grew up in,
we were told, I guess the messaging was that
abortions were happening in the third trimester.
That the majority of abortions were happening in this third
trimester. And you're saying no, no, no.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (07:36):
Absolutely not. Absolutely not.
>> Producer (07:38):
M. Did you say 90%?
>> Rebeca (07:40):
95% correct.
>> Producer (07:42):
Are happening before 13 weeks?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (07:43):
13 weeks.
>> Rebeca (07:45):
I want to pause here for a second so that this information
has a chance to sink in. If you are
like me, with the majority of your information coming
from the pro Life movement, then this information
is likely shocking. I
remember graphics of babies being partially born and
jammed in the neck with scissors. I remember being told
(08:05):
that millions of late term abortions were happening.
So many that it sounded like the vast
majority of abortions happened in the third
trimester. But the statistics
show that this is untrue.
Doctor brothers just set us straight.
95% of abortions
happen before 13
(08:27):
weeks. 13
weeks. I voiced my next
thought directly to doctor brothers.
>> Producer (08:37):
Which is before a fetus can survive outside.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (08:40):
Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, really, we consider
24 weeks limits. Of viability.
now, between 22 and 24 weeks
is when we're actually talking to patients who have
premature ruptured membranes or at
risk for rapid delivery. We're offering them the
option to consider, interventions
to, save pregnancy.
>> Producer (09:03):
So let's talk about that for a second. we're getting a little bit ahead of where I
wanted to be, but while we're on this topic, in the
amendment that we're all going to be voting on, you know, it's two
sentences long.
>> Rebeca (09:13):
Let me break in again here and read the two sentences of
the amendment to you. It's important that we know
exactly what the amendment states. The
two sentences.
>> Producer (09:22):
Are.
>> Rebeca (09:22):
These are no law shall
prohibit, penalize, delay,
or restrict abortion before
viability, or when necessary
to protect the patient's health as
determined by the patient's health care provider.
This amendment does not change the legislature's
(09:43):
constitutional authority to require
notification to a parent or guardian
before a minor has an abortion.
So when doctor brothers said that phrase, fetal
viability, I wanted to talk further.
>> Producer (09:57):
About it, and one of the
phrases that is in that first sentence that everyone's
trying to wrap their minds around is fetal
viability, that this would enshrine the right to abortion
in the state constitution up to the point of
fetal viability, as determined by a medical professional. By you?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (10:14):
Correct.
>> Producer (10:14):
And you're saying that that fetal viability
window is typically 22 to 24?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (10:20):
Correct.
>> Producer (10:21):
And what do you look at to determine fetal
viability? What does that mean?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (10:25):
Well, you know, with
advances in NICU care,
the things that are looked at, you know, is
the baby's lungs mature enough? Are the baby's
organs mature enough? Is the gut mature enough? So
our nicu, physicians are
amazing, and the science has been phenomenal
(10:45):
in extending the Life, the viability,
bringing the needle lower and lower. for
example, the Kennedy. One of the Kennedy babies, in the
way back in 1960s, in the early
1960s, died of prematurity,
at about 34 weeks. Gestation.
>> Rebeca (11:01):
Oh, my son was born at 34 weeks.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (11:03):
Wow. Right. Now, you may fact check me on some of these
numbers, but prematurity, and that
was 60 years ago or whatever. So
prematurity, now you go from
34 weeks, and now we consider that equal
to a term baby. As far as morbidity and
mortality, now we're down to 22 weeks,
when their eyes may still be fused, you know,
(11:25):
their skin is transparent, you know,
all those things that it is miraculous
to see the viability, you know, go from
24 to 22 weeks. But I. Intact
viability, you know, will this child ever
get off the ventilator? Will. Those are the things that we have
to counsel parents on when we talk about viability
(11:46):
at 22 weeks.
>> Rebeca (11:47):
So this idea that I'm hearing out there, that
if we were to pass.
>> Producer (11:52):
This amendment, that what we are as a state, in effect
saying is that you can have an abortion up until the day of
delivery. That's not true.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (11:59):
I don't know how that information ever got,
ever got out.
>> Producer (12:03):
Okay, because it.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (12:04):
Cause that's incorrect. That's incorrect.
>> Rebeca (12:08):
The amendment does not
allow for abortion beyond the
point of, fetal viability. And
fetal viability is around 22 to 24 weeks,
as we've just heard doctor brother say. I've
seen some political messaging out there that.
Okay, well, let me just say it frankly. It's lying.
They're lying about this. Let's not
(12:31):
fall for lies coming from either side.
Let's operate in truth. Okay.
The truth is that the amendment would
allow for abortion up to fetal
viability. And fetal viability
is 22 to 24 weeks.
Now let's get back to the conversation.
>> Producer (12:50):
With doctor brothers, because it's
up until fetal viability, as determined
by people like you who have all of the training and the knowledge in
this professionals. Okay? So let
me ask you, you know, one of the things in my background that I
just didn't know and is that abortion is
medically necessary in some cases. We were
(13:10):
taught that it was always just elective to
escape the effects of having willy nilly
sex out there as much as you wanted. That's what we were taught.
So when is it medically
necessary to have. We've heard from a couple of women on the
show when it was medically necessary in their lives. But if you could give us an
idea of how is abortion used
as a medical tool for the Life of the mother or the Life of
(13:33):
the fetus.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (13:34):
So the indications for a termination
of a recognized pregnancy, we look at
either baby or mother. And in the
case of mother, you know, often severe mental
illness can be an indication. Severe, ah,
psychosis, severe depression, would be one
indication for it, cancer. For a
patient who has cancer and finds herself, in the midst
(13:57):
of treatment, she would also. That could
also be an indication. It, can delay treatment if she's
newly diagnosed with cancer during a pregnancy. Ah,
cardiac diseases. There are several cardiac abnormalities
that women have that would cause
complications, would be complicated by a pregnancy.
Medication, certain medications, certain,
(14:17):
exposures, toxic exposures, radiation
exposures could also be it. we also look
at failed contraception in high risk conditions.
So, for example, say a woman has a condition
and it's contraindicated for her to become pregnant and
she has a failed contraception would be another
indication, because.
>> Producer (14:35):
That contraception can affect the growth and
development of.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (14:39):
Well, because it would make, you know, this is someone who has done everything
they can to prevent a pregnancy and has
a medical condition that would
preclude a safe pregnancy.
>> Producer (14:49):
Got it.
>> Rebeca (14:50):
Did you catch all that? She just rattled off
eight different scenarios in which a woman wouldn't be
able to carry a pregnancy to term without it costing her
life, none of which are allowed as
exceptions to Florida's current heartbeat law.
I have to say, the more I've researched this talking with
doctors and attorneys, the more I wonder if
(15:12):
the legislators really have an appreciable
knowledge of all the varying ways that women experience
pregnancy. It's different every
single time our age,
whether we have illnesses like cancer or heart
disease at the time that we get pregnant, whether we're on
other medications to treat mental illnesses, or if we were
(15:32):
taking birth control, or we have a birth control device
implanted, all of these things can affect the
proper development of a fetus.
All those things and more that doctor brothers just
mentioned. We have to navigate through
that every single time that
stick turns pink. We have
to take in all the variables
(15:54):
and make decisions that are best for ourselves
and our families.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (15:59):
And then, of course, we look at the fetal indications
for, termination, which could be
incompatibility with Life, or it could be severe
cardiac disease, chromosome abnormalities, babies
born with severe neurological diseases, meaning they have
no brain, they have an open spinal
cord. They have,
(16:20):
when the egg and the sperm get together and create a human being,
sometimes it just doesn't happen, right? And the
chromosomes, they get extra chromosomes, too few chromosomes,
and they can maybe survive
to a certain point in pregnancy. But at that point,
it would be too late to do an intervention, for
example, leading the mother's Life to be in danger.
(16:40):
Or it could be a condition in
which we know that the
baby could be born, but that would die immediately
after birth. And so those conditions,
would be an option for a mother. We'd, like to offer her
that option to not continue a pregnancy.
>> Producer (16:58):
So when I hear about these, I was
talking with a woman yesterday, and she said, you know, when we talk
about banning abortion, we're not talking about any of those instances,
because those are incredibly rare.
>> Rebeca (17:09):
Are they rare? Everything you just rattled off, do you see
that?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (17:12):
Well, in my world, that's what we see. And
so, as an obstetrician, gynecologist, those
are the conditions that we see. it is not the,
you know, I do have patients that find themselves
pregnant for, you know,
and we're not intended to be pregnant and may choose to go
through a termination, but the ones that I see are those
(17:33):
very conditions.
>> Producer (17:34):
And you have a full practice where you're seeing patients all day, every
day.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (17:37):
Every day.
>> Producer (17:38):
So this isn't a couple women a year, correct. Even in
your practice?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (17:41):
Even in my practice.
>> Producer (17:43):
So when you're. What does that look like
now? When you have patients that are coming
to you and medically they're presenting as needing to have
this option, but in this state they don't.
>> Rebeca (17:54):
What happens now?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (17:55):
Well, so there are
a couple of options that, you know, one, we can refer them out of
state, and that's what's been happening
primarily is they are, they go to our maternal fetal
specialist for confirmation, just to
confirm what we're diagnosing. And,
then they are offered to go out of state.
>> Producer (18:15):
So I know
that the current law says, well, if you can get two
physicians to Right a letter saying that your life
is in danger, then you can have an
abortion. Realistically, as a
physician, does that happen?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (18:31):
So there's a lot of issues,
and this. It's an excellent
question. And we're just now seeing some of the
effects, and they're being written about in the literature
about what is happening to patients in states that have
very restrictive laws. So a lot of our
data is fresh because this
hasn't been around for a long time. But so we're collecting data
(18:53):
from Oklahoma, Mississippi, you know, Texas,
Arkansas, Louisiana, a little bit from Florida now,
because this hasn't been as long as it has been in those
states. A lot of the physicians
and hospitals and emergency rooms
are unprepared
to take care of patients, so they don't. Their first
(19:14):
reaction is to deny them
access to care. So because they're
afraid, because of the draconian laws, because
of imprisoning physicians, they're just afraid
to take care of them. And so when
women come to these clinics or these physicians
or these emergency rooms, even with
(19:34):
medical problems, the physicians are so afraid
that they're going to be put in jail
or charged with civil
crimes that they are referring
these patients, to other states. So
it's. It's led to a, poor
quality of care for our pregnant patients and
(19:55):
fear on the part of our medical community to,
take care of them.
>> Rebeca (20:00):
Doctor brothers, answer here. Reminded me of what
attorney James Chilimy, you'll remember him from episode
two of what he said. He told
us that the law would likely make doctors
and hospitals withhold care rather than run
the risk of breaking the heartbeat law. Because if
they do break the law, they not only are subject
(20:21):
to fines, but also a felony
conviction and five years
in prison. And now we have doctor
brothers, a physician operating in
Florida under the heartbeat law, telling us that
withholding of care is exactly what is
happening.
>> Producer (20:41):
I'm just letting that sink in for a second, because
when I hear.
>> Rebeca (20:44):
About that, you know, I'm a
pro.
>> Producer (20:47):
Life person, which in my world, the definition of
pro Life is that you nurture and care for Life. That is what I mean
when I say I'm pro life. And I have
to believe that the motivation
for passing this law from a lot of the people who are involved in
it was also to nurture and care for Life. But the more
that I find out on the ground from
(21:08):
attorneys and from physicians, it's not.
It's actually putting Life at risk.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (21:13):
There's a lot of data
from the CDC and other organizations that
collect information on abortion, access
to abortion, the numbers of abortions throughout the country,
and what we've actually seen since 2020
is an uptick of abortions over,
the past four years. We have, I think, an
(21:34):
extra 100,000 abortions that are
recorded for the United States
since. Since this change
in the law.
>> Rebeca (21:42):
Really?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (21:43):
Correct. Not only have we increased the number of
abortions, we have also increased the
number of women who have died from
complications of
illegal, abortions and limited access to
care. So not only has it
not been life
saving, it has been
(22:05):
contrary to that, and this is accessible
data.
>> Rebeca (22:08):
Wow.
>> Producer (22:10):
Okay. So sorry. It's
just a lot to wrap my mind around, because I don't quite understand
how we got here legally from a
motivation of let's take care of Life. And we
seem to not seem to. We literally are now under a
law that is not only not caring for Life,
as you say, but is also ending lives and harming
lives.
>> Rebeca (22:30):
I questioned doctor brothers further about this because
it just boggles my mind. I do
believe that most of the people who worked on the heartbeat
law did so from a place of wanting
to protect and nurture Life.
And so to hear that it is doing the
exact opposite requires all of
(22:50):
us who are well intentioned to
pause to try to figure out what's going
on. I mean, we're actually
causing more abortions, more
moms to die. That's what the data is
showing. As we talked it out.
I went back to that thing. We're taught in the pro Life
movement that abortion is mainly used by
(23:12):
people who want to have a lot of sex and not face the
consequences. I asked doctor brothers
about that.
>> Producer (23:20):
So why don't they just not have sex?
That's always the question that gets asked whenever I'm talk,
talking, whenever I talk with people about contraception.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (23:30):
And all I can say is, we are human beings.
>> Producer (23:32):
we are that, you know?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (23:34):
And interestingly,
the teenage portion of
abortions is not significantly
high. It's often married women, it's
often people with. Who already have a child.
It is often, married couples,
but it is often people who are
disadvantaged socially,
(23:56):
financially, economically. Same
thing, and education wise. And often
women who don't necessarily have the control
over their bodies that
we think that we should all have.
For example, women who are in manipulative
relationships, who are in, power
(24:17):
struggle relationships, who are,
sexually abused, assaulted.
>> Producer (24:23):
Even in a marriage, and we don't have
that. As a physician, if you have
a patient come in and they're pregnant as a result of
rape, can you offer them an abortion?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (24:35):
You have? It has to be. If it's after six
weeks, they have to have proof. They have got
to have gone through the legal system. They've got to have
documentation that they were assaulted,
raped, incest. So it can't be someone
who, you know, a college student, for
example, who was maybe date raped, or
a teenager who was assaulted or
(24:58):
raped. Or it can't be someone who just
is in tears in your office with a positive
pregnancy test, who was afraid to tell mom, who was
ashamed, who was fearful of those
things. It has to be somebody who exposes themselves
to the legal system and all of the
ramifications that that means for someone
who has been victimized.
>> Rebeca (25:20):
We went over this, too with attorney Chilemi in episode
two. But to clarify here, the current law
does allow for abortion in the case of rape or incest,
but only if the patient produces the
police report from where she reported the crime.
I just want to speak to you for a second, as a sexual assault
survivor, in that
(25:42):
capacity, I want to say this is
an awful precedent to
set. Most of us
women know that reporting the rape
almost never ends in the rapist
being held accountable in the court system.
According to the rape, abuse and incest national
(26:02):
network, for every thousand
rapes, only seven
result in a felony conviction and only
six in incarceration.
So to force a rape victim to
subject herself to a system that most
likely, most likely
(26:23):
will not get her justice,
to make that the requirement for her to
be able to terminate the pregnancy caused by
her rapist, I personally
think is horrific.
And it could only have been made law
by someone who has never personally
encountered the experience of sexual
(26:46):
assault.
But let's get back to my conversation with doctor brothers.
So, as a physician, m
how did.
>> Producer (26:56):
You find out about this law being passed and that you
could face five years in prison if you performed an
abortion?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (27:05):
Well, it was a big part of our dialogue
in the world of obstetrics. So when
it was. When Roe v. Wade was
first overturned, that was,
you know, a lot of states immediately went into that,
ban, and we
were hopeful that the 15 week ban
(27:27):
would be all there would be, because, as we just discussed,
you know, 95% of terminations of
pregnancy are done before that. And that's
generally. We can see a lot of the anomalies or complications of
pregnancy or take care of women with medical problems before
that. But the six week ban, that was just.
That doesn't allow us to
(27:48):
support our patients,
with these complications.
>> Producer (27:52):
M so
you're saying that we would actually be able.
>> Rebeca (27:58):
You would be able to give better.
>> Producer (28:00):
Care to women
if we did not have this law in
place right now.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (28:06):
Correct.
>> Producer (28:07):
But that you feel like you would probably be able to give the kind of care that
you needed if it was a 15 week or a 22 week or
a whatever.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (28:14):
You know, the circumstances when an advanced
gestation requires a termination is often
because the anomalies, the significant anomalies, or the
complications haven't shown up. And we don't do full
anatomy ultrasounds on some women until they're 20 weeks
pregnant or 18 weeks pregnant. So there
are cases where horrible,
(28:35):
abnormalities are found and a family may choose,
you know, historically, that family could choose
to complete the pregnancy early, do a
termination of pregnancy, but now are forced to continue
that pregnancy through the duration
under the current law.
>> Producer (28:53):
So the idea, going back to the idea of fetal
viability at 22, 23,
24 weeks, wherever that fetal viability
line is, you're telling me that the
majority, if there is something wrong with this
pregnancy, it's been detected most of the time
by the point of fetal viability?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (29:10):
Oh, absolutely, yes. Most of the time. Correct.
>> Producer (29:13):
Okay, so if indeed, in the
amendment that everybody has to vote for the
cutoff is fetal viability, correct. it still
would not allow for abortion after fetal
viability.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (29:24):
Correct.
>> Producer (29:25):
And fetal viability is determined by
you, by a physician.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (29:29):
Correct.
>> Producer (29:29):
Or the actual words are by the patient's
healthcare provider, which is defined in Florida law,
that those words are, I've looked that up, and we'll talk about that on
another episode. The term patient's health
care provider. Healthcare provider is a very clearly defined term in
Florida law. So that's not just anybody that calls themselves
a healthcare provider in the state. and so
(29:50):
you as a physician, you are trained in and know how
to determine fetal viability and have that conversation with the
patient.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (29:56):
We are trained to find for the gestational
age,
assign a due date. Hm. So
as far as the viability goes, you know, as that is
determined by between 22 and 24
weeks, we, can generally define that
period of time. The sooner we can, ah, see a patient, the better, of
course.
>> Producer (30:17):
So talk to me about the impact of this law
on the practice, the Ob g. The practice of Ob
gyn medicine in this state. What is that
looking like for those of us who need access to your services
at some point? Because I cannot fathom being a
physician in obese Ob GyN and,
like, potentially exposing myself to five
(30:37):
years in prison in a felony conviction.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (30:39):
Well, the residency programs, in
those states that do obstetrics and
gynecology are having less success in filling
their spots. there's more of a reluctance of
physicians, of medical, students
and newly, trained doctors to do their
training in a state that highly restricts,
access to abortion. We're also finding that
(31:02):
physicians are coming out now, are not as well trained
in those procedures that are often part of
a normal gyn practice,
so that they're not able to handle
those at risk patients, not just for abortions, but
for normal dncs and those types of procedures.
the other thing that we're doing, certainly,
(31:22):
is the
limited access of medication.
So certain medications that can be considered
abortifax the cytotec and the,
mephistone, misoprostol. So
misoprostol is a medication that we use for a lot of indications,
and we're actually having difficulty getting that from
pharmacies. So there is
(31:44):
some really intrusion
into the doctor patient
relationship, everything from pharmacies and insurance
companies as well.
>> Producer (31:54):
So you're saying we have, we're going to have
a shortage of doctors to even see us through
healthy pregnancies because the doctors aren't coming to these states
to practice.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (32:03):
That is a possibility. In addition, they won't be as
well.
>> Producer (32:06):
Trained because that's what we need, is even
less training to take care of women in medicine.
That's absolutely what we need.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (32:14):
Correct.
>> Producer (32:16):
I learned, the other day that so much of the
medicine that we have even down to ibuprofen and tylenol and all that are
dosages have nothing to do with
women. They're based on the size of the
average male that are dosing of, again,
tylenol and ibuprofen and things like that. We just weren't
considered.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (32:34):
Well, the interesting part of these studies is they
thought that women's bodies were too
variable. You know, we have periods and we have
menopause. And so with that, it was
just much easier to study men, whether it has
to do with heart attacks, with the symptoms of
cardiovascular disease in women, and especially pregnant
women. And so, you know, we clearly don't do studies
(32:57):
on pregnant women, but to the degree that we even
withhold care from pregnant women, you know, it's sometimes hard
to get your teeth cleaned when you're pregnant. Because
of our concerns about.
>> Producer (33:07):
I experienced that, yes.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (33:09):
Of taking care of pregnant women.
>> Producer (33:11):
That's great. So in the reality that we
were already living in that you just described,
it's getting even worse because now there's even less
training.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (33:20):
Right. And there's more fear. There's more fear in the medical
world, to treat pregnant women, especially in
emergencies, emergency settings.
>> Producer (33:27):
And the fear is because of liability.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (33:31):
Well, liability in jail time, you know, so if there's
a patient, for example, even though ectopic
pregnancy is one of the indications for
intervention, and an ectopic pregnancy is a pregnancy outside
the uterus. So there are
emergency rooms that are afraid to take care of these patients because
they're not aware of the laws, and they're just
afraid. And so even though the law does
(33:53):
protect ectopic pregnancy patients,
physicians are still afraid. You know, the PA that you see in the
emergency room may not be aware of the law and so
turns you away.
>> Producer (34:03):
So you said that the law allows for ectopic pregnancy. You're talking
about the emergency, orders that were handed down, because the law itself
does not.
>> Rebeca (34:09):
But those emergency orders that came down.
>> Producer (34:11):
I think it was May 1 or May 2. Let me ask you about those
for a second, because I've been wondering.
Normally, when emergency orders come down from the health department
in Florida, they're only good for 30 days. And, of course, those orders
came down May 1. And as I'm speaking to you, it's.
>> Rebeca (34:25):
The end of August, which would indicate.
>> Producer (34:27):
That those emergency orders have expired.
>> Rebeca (34:30):
But my hope is that they haven't.
>> Producer (34:32):
Somehow magically expired in due course this time. And
we're still operating under them.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (34:36):
We are still operating under them. I have not been made aware
that they have been revised.
>> Producer (34:40):
That was my question. Has there been any sort of
indication to you as a physician that we're nothing is still operating
underneath the emergency orders? Correct.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (34:47):
We are still operating under those.
>> Producer (34:48):
Okay. At least that is good to know.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (34:51):
That is good. Yeah. That was an area of
a lot of, confusion in many
states and really put women's, health and
lives at risk.
>> Producer (35:01):
So let's paint. Let me finish up here and ask you
to paint your blue sky moment.
>> Rebeca (35:07):
As a physician. Is
there.
>> Producer (35:10):
Do you think that there needs to be regulation
of abortion to provide
care and to take care of women in their pregnancies? Do we
even need to be regulating this by law?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (35:22):
absolutely. I think there are. For the safety of the
mother, for, you know, general
societal concerns, and for the, protection
of a baby that is a
viable age. So, absolutely. I do think there
needs to be, oversight
to make sure that, we do, protect our
babies.
>> Producer (35:43):
Is that oversight present in the amendment.
>> Rebeca (35:46):
That we're all voting on?
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (35:49):
Amendment four does protect
a viable baby. Correct.
>> Producer (35:55):
Got it. Thank you very much for coming on the show, doctor.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (35:58):
Well, thank you. Thank you.
>> Rebeca (36:03):
You know, when I was preparing to interview Doctor Brothers,
I spoke with some colleagues to learn the questions that they
would want to ask a physician about the heartbeat law.
And more often than not, I not only received
questions, but also astonishment that
a physician was willing to come onto this program.
The fear that Doctor brothers mentioned is
(36:23):
rampant among the medical community in Florida.
Most are keeping their heads down, hoping not to run
afoul of the political winds that brought us here.
I believe her to be very courageous in her
willingness to talk with us today.
As I shared with her, I told her how Emily
and Samantha, from our previous episodes, how they
(36:44):
ended their conversations with me. She
smiled and she said, my name.
>> Dr. Betsy Brothers (36:50):
Is Betsy brothers, and my patients have a
right to Life.
>> Rebeca (37:03):
There is one more thing I'd like to share with you before
we wrap up today. You might have heard that
Governor DeSantis has declared October 6
as protect Life Sunday here in Florida.
On that day, pastors are expected to
preach on the topic of abortion with an eye
toward having congregants vote no on Amendment
(37:23):
four. The phrase right to
Life is going to be heard from pulpits
across the state on that Sunday and probably
all the Sundays between now and November 5.
But as I continue to learn more and more about
abortion, a, truth is hammered home
to me again and again.
(37:44):
When we say right to Life,
we really need to think about everyone
who has a right to Life. And we don't.
Not in the pro Life community. In that
community, the phrase only applies to
the fetus. But that's not right
because there's a woman's Life at stake,
(38:04):
too. So to balance out the
conversation, we've created t shirts that
ask, does a woman have a right to
Life? On the back of the shirt is that Bible verse
from proverbs that I love, the one that tells us to chase wisdom
and get understanding, because that's what we're
doing here together. That's what
congregations need to do on Sunday, October 6
(38:27):
as well. They need to follow the
biblical directive to chase wisdom
and get understanding. So
I'm encouraging you to get a t shirt and wear it to
a church service on Sunday, October 6.
You can see the shirts and get yours on the
show's website. It's
ripetolifestories.com.
(38:49):
the company that's making these shirts is a black woman
owned company based in Jacksonville, and she
has graciously agreed to provide a portion of the
sales back toward production of this show.
So please head over to
writetolifestories.com comma get
your shirt and wear it to church on Sunday,
October 6. Let's help make
(39:10):
sure that the woman that God
created is not forgotten in our
right to Life rhetoric.
>> Announcer (39:19):
You've been listening to Right to Life on the
one 1C Story Network. If you have a story to
share or would like to learn more, please visit
righttolifestories.com this
show is brought to you by the generous support of people who
value Life. To contribute, visit
righttolifestories.com and click on the
(39:40):
GofundMe icon or get in touch.
>> Singer (39:53):
The one 1C Story Network
for the love of stories.
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