Feed Takeover ft. California True Crime - The San Jose Halloween Murders - Rogue Darkness

Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Dark Cast Network. Welcome to thedark side of podcasts. They would decrifuite
b animal dark world of ritualistic chodasis there a well organized plot and insidious
design to program the minds of ourchildren, cowards of the occult and witchcraft?

(00:26):
Does it make you want to hate? Murder? Murder? Let's explore
the darkness of mankind from One Crimeat a Time. Welcome back to Rogue
Darkness, the podcast that uncovers howthe misinterpretations and misinformation surrounding witchcraft, the
occult, and other beliefs have ledmany to do unthinkable crimes. From ritualistic

(00:49):
killings and the demons that live inall of us, to exploration of the
macabre and delving deep into the unknown, Let's explore the darkness of mankind,
one crime at a time. I'myour host of the Grim and Gruesome Raven.
In this feed takeover episode, we'llbe listening to California True Crime as
they discussed the horrific San Jose Halloweenmurders of nineteen eighty four. Were a

(01:14):
masked assailant posing as a trick ortreat brutally slaughtered and unsuspecting pregnant woman and
her unborn child. Due to thegraphic nature of the crimes that will be
discussed, listener discretion is advised.So now let's go rogue and get right
in to today's chilling episode. OnOctober thirty first, nineteen eighty four,

(01:44):
San Jose was an electric with childrenexcited for the evening of tricks and especially
treats. One of those families wasthe Herberts, and in their neighborhood in
North Valley, they, like manyfamilies, were planning a night of handing
out candy and taking their little fouryear old Deanna door to door. Dorene
Herbert, Dianna's mother, was eightmonths pregnant and unable to walk long distances.

(02:06):
In fact, several of her friendshad described the tiny, not quite
five foot tall woman as wide asif she was tall. She stayed home
to pass out candy while her husband, Charles took over the duties of walking
in the chilly fifty six degree eveningaround the neighborhood with Diana. As the
evening came to an end, Charlesbrought Diana home, but had left a
few houses nearby untricked and untreated,so that Diana could enjoy some time with

(02:30):
her daughter on Halloween. After all, the entire family was just a month
away from a new adventure when thechild Dorene was expecting would be born.
Enjoying themselves and surrounded by happy neighbors, the family had no idea that something
terrible lad in Weight a real lifemonster waiting to strike and waiting to change
this family's future irrevocably, in anevent the police and newspapers would call a

(02:51):
real life hollowing horror. Unlike ahorror movie, the terrible crime committed against
this family is all too real,and the men responded. Still sits on
death row today and appealing his sentence. Welcome to this episode of California True
Crime, the San Jose Halloween Murders. Thank you for listening to this episode

(03:42):
of California True Crime. Before weget started, I just want to give
a disclaimer. The case we're coveringtonight includes the death of a mother and
her fetus. It's a very difficulttopic. It's a brutal murder and we
will be giving details so that wecan better talk about some of the legalities
surrounding the crime. And some peoplemay not want to listen to this.
I'm Jessica and I'll be your hostfor this episode, and for the first

(04:03):
time, all three members of CaliforniaTrue Crime are here to talk about this
case. So first, welcome Charles, Thank you for joining me. Oh,
you're welcome, JSCA. I'm reallyexcited for this and not last life,
not last, but certainly least.Hello. Thank you for joining me,
both of you. Before we getstarted, I want to let you

(04:25):
know where I got the bulk ofmy information for this episode. I use
legal papers, peels, papers,and newspapers, and just recently I found
an episode about this crime on theshow Unmasked, which I had never heard
of before, on Discovery ID.It's from season one, episode three,
if you want to go and findit. But this episode was already written,
and when I watched this show therewere some things that were different.

(04:47):
I've kept making mainly everything the same. It's, like I said, come
from our research, but I didadd a few things here and there.
The crme we're going to talk abouttonight takes place in San Jose in nineteen
eighty four. San Jose the citymost listeners have probably heard of. So
many influential things have happened here,and I actually did not realize it was
the third largest city in California.It has one point three to five million

(05:10):
people in twenty seventeen. But perhapsmost importantly, it's the largest city in
Silicon Valley. And before there wasSilicon Valley, there was agriculture in San
Jose, as there was and basicallymost of California. Big time agriculture had
one third of the world's prunes.But to save much of this history for
other episodes and other crimes that happenedduring this time, those things really deserve

(05:34):
their own episode. Silicon Valley probablydenotes for most people's cell phones and computers,
but actually San Jose in the areaaround it was big on new and
emergency merging technologies far before the techboom, and Charles is here to give
us a little history of Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley today has become the center
of the software and internet industry forthe world, but its roots go all

(05:58):
the way back to the nineteen hundreds, when a student at Stanford University started
the Federal Telegraph Company and began buildingmore powerful transmitters that were capable of using
Morse code and voice. Eventually,the US Navy would use this technology and
install it all over the world.At that same time, another Stanford student
would start the College of Wireless andEngineering in Santase and would launch the first

(06:19):
regularly scheduled radio broadcast in the UnitedStates. It was here also that the
Food Machinery Corporation, which was foundedin Los Gados but moved to Santase in
nineteen o three, and it wasa company that the United States War Department
contracted to build landing vehicle tracks orLVTs. And these are the vehicles that

(06:40):
made to carry troops and equipment overwater and up onto beaches. Think like
the opening scene of Saving Private Ryanwith the kind of tank boats were coming
up on a Normandy beach and theramp was coming down. That's what they
were making actually in Santaz. Andthis would lead to the area being on
the forefront of military search and developmentfor military vehicles like the Bradley Fighting Tank

(07:03):
and the M one Abrams tank.And this is also going to cause a
close relationship in the area with theUnited States military in general. In nineteen
forty three, IBM will establish ourWest Coast headquarters in Santas. In nineteen
fifty two, they opened a researchand development facility in downtown where Reynold Johnson

(07:24):
and his team invented the r AMAC. This stands for random Access method of
Accounting and Control. In nineteen fiftysix, IBM also opens its Caudle Road
manufacturing facility in the Santa Theresa neighborhood, and this is where disk drives were
invented in nineteen sixty two. Duringthe eighties when our case takes place,

(07:45):
Silicon Valley isn't just a technology center, but it's also a manufacturing as well.
For the most part, the largecompanies making technology during this time are
also manufacturing it right there in Santase, so there are a lot of people
working in the manufacturing industry as wellas the software development. This is also
the reason that a lot of largerbuildings in Silicon Valley are built on the
remains of manufacturing plants. And weshould be clear that Santos has a huge

(08:09):
and diverse history, and we're notcovering that in this episode as it doesn't
really intersect with this case, butwe will definitely be back and want to
save as much of that history forthose stories in the future. But Santos's
history is much bigger than Silicon Valleyand tech history that most people will think
of today. And aside from SiliconValley, there's also some famous people.

(08:30):
Some famous Californians are from Santaza.So a few of the more notable ones
Adrian Barbo, which if you're notfamiliar with Adrian Barbo, she was made
famous in a lot of John Carpentermovies from the seventies and eighties. Dustin
Diamond, who was a big partof a lot of our childhoods with Saved
by the Bell. Also the SmothersBrothers, which are you guys familiar with

(08:54):
the Smothers Brothers. Yeah, yeah, okay, And which I thought was
we I thought this this next personreally kind of blew me away. Person
by the name of Crazy George Henderson, who is known as a cheerleader,
but he's actually the guy who inventedthe wave. It's from Santoza. Like
the dance. Yeah, like whatyou do at like sporting events where everyone

(09:15):
jumps up and throws their hands inthe air. Also, you know,
and then, like we said earlier, with the Silicon Valley, you you
have native Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniakof Apple fame, as well as the
founder of Bank of America and JerryYang, who's the co founder of you
Yeah, who are all from Santozayou left out? Also the hot dog

(09:37):
eating champion Joey Chestnut that's right,who brought home the mustard yellow Belt to
America from the Japanese. I believehis name is Kobe Ashi. Yes,
right, that's going back right.Also, there's a huge well quite a
few musicians and bands from Santaza,most notably the Doobie Brothers, some members
of Fleetwood, mac Nikki from MotleyCrue, and Stone Tumble Pilots. A

(10:03):
few members of Stone Tumble Pilots.I found some things interesting. Also,
San Jose is considered one of thesafest cities in the country, but it
is also one of the most expensive, with rent being around seventeen fifty and
to buy a home it's roughly sevenhundred and fifty thousand. But then,

(10:24):
going with safety and the high prices, it also has one of the highest
homeless populations in the country, andI thought that was very interesting. With
just talk of homeless and safety,nowadays you have one of the safest but
also one of the highest homeless populations. Another thing that I found very interesting
was from roadside America dot Com.If you are traveling northbound on the one

(10:48):
oh one and right at the exitramp to Tolly Road, there is a
world famous statue because it's the tallestrat statue ever made of thirty feet and
all it is is a giant Chuckycheese inside like a cage and it's lit
up at night. If you everwant to see it, I mean you

(11:09):
can see it in the day too, like the rat at the pizza parlor,
Chucky cheese in a cage. Well, it looks like a cage and
it's like it's like lit up,but it was actually the guys like it
took six months to build. Itwas early eighties that it was made.
And he was like a starving artist. This is just what I read.
He was a starving artist and hewent to chuck E Cheese. I don't

(11:30):
know why. Oh I'm a starvingartist. Let me go to Chucky Cheese
and see if they have work.And they said, can you build like
a giant rat? And he didawesome. Yeah. So San Jose is
very large, as we said,it has things like San Jose State there,
the college. I've never lived there. It's one of the few places
we've talked about so far. I'venever really spent much time in, so
I talked with a good friend ofmine who did live there, and I

(11:52):
just wanted to quickly mention a localthing, which I guess is the statue.
I guess it's the statue of QuetsCaudle kexel Quaddle, and I guess
locals call it the Pooh Snake because, and you can look this up,
it really does look like a dogleft something there, and it has a
whole history. It's actually was createdby artist Robert Graham in ninety four,

(12:16):
when the city paid him to createsomething that would honor the founding of San
Jose and its Hispanic founders. Legendgoes that when they discarded three of his
favorite ideas for the statue, hecreated this one and called it park God,
which backwards is dog crap, asrevenge for the other three statues.
But either way, I guess whenyou're in town you might say, meet
me at the Pooh Statue or poopstatue, or whatever you want to call

(12:39):
it. I just thought i'd mentionedthat this crime takes place in a San
Jose neighborhood called Barry Esa, atleast that's what it's called on maps.
I'm told locally it's called North Valley. This area is northwest San Jose and
the particular neighborhood is very close toInterstate six eighty. I believe the house
the crime occurs in backs up basicallydirectly, so that's six eighty runs right

(13:00):
behind it. Interstate six eighty doesn'ttravel the length of California. It mainly
runs to the Bay Area and placeslike San Jose, Oakland, San Ramon,
And it was only given the titleof interstate in nineteen fifty five.
And much of it's the places youexit or meets up with other things were
completed during the sixties, which isjust interesting to me because most of the
things in California we talk about havebeen here for a long time. I

(13:22):
always just think of them is old, and this is kind of relatively brand
new for California history. In fact, the house sits to the east of
the Inner State, and if youfollow the road the Herberts live in nineteen
eighty four, it leads to apedestrian bridge that classes directly over six eighty
and into other neighborhoods. It's thatclose to the interstate. The neighborhood in

(13:43):
North Valley had only been around fora little over ten years in nineteen eighty
four. Like much of California,it had been farmland and orchards priored to
be bought up and sold to developerswho built homes. California has been in
the midst of a large population explosionjust in general, and San Jose is
experiencing this seventies. If you rememberour episode on Michael Briddenhour, we talked

(14:03):
a lot about population explosion in Modesto, and that's basically happening almost everywhere in
California, just to a much smallerextent. In nineteen seventy the population of
Saint Jose is four hundred and fortyfive thousand, seven hundred and seventy nine,
and by nineteen eighty it'll be sixhundred and twenty nine thousand, four
hundred and forty two and it justkeeps increasing. So building houses is a

(14:24):
booming industry in most areas of California, and a lot of people living in
this area are people working in differentcapacities in the seventies and eighties in technology,
are manufacturing. It's a very highlypopulated suburban area. Dorene and Charles
Herbert have been married since nineteen seventynine. They met when her car broke
down and Charles stopped to help her. They hit it off. Dorene had

(14:45):
worked as a physical therapist, butafter they marry, she joins him in
his successful carpet business. Charles wasDorene's second husband. She had been married
for several years to another man namedWilliam Michael Dennis, but the two of
them had divorced in nineteen seventy eight. This divorce was a difficult one for
Dorene. Her and William Dennis shareda son together. His name was Paul,

(15:05):
and I believe in the two divorcedin nineteen seventy eight, he was
only about one years old. Thedivorce between the two was very bitter and
angry, and they fought for custodyof their son. There were hard feelings
on both sides when Dorene received custodyof Paul from the court. I will
say that the show Unmasked made itseem as if they had an amicable divorce,
when nothing I read indicated in anythingof the sort. Although it's possible

(15:28):
it may be a situation where oneperson thought it was amicable and another was
very angry about it. And forthis case, I do want to warm
people. There may be some differencesfrom that episode. We're going to stick
with what we researched, but justto kind of warn you if you watch
that episode and their divorce is oneof those instances that's different most of us
the same as I said. Doreneremarried to Charles Herbert in nineteen seventy nine,

(15:52):
and Paul came to live with themin a house in the North Valley
area of San Jose. The housesaid among many others in a suburban area,
and lined up behind the home aswe talked about, was I six
eighty. Just down the street wasa pedestrian bridge that if you walked over,
you'd be instantly in the neighborhood whereher husband, William Michael Dennis lived.
He often went by the name Mikeor Michael and all. It was
about a six to ten minute walkor six blocks between the two homes.

(16:15):
And even though Dorene had full custodyof their son, Paul, William Dennis
had visitation rates and would pick uphis son for visits or when he would
stay with him. The house thatMichael lives in right now is that the
house that they lived in together whenthey were married. No, and I
actually don't know where they lived andthey lived together, so they both moved

(16:36):
out and then ended up blocks awayfrom each other. Yeah, he lives
in a two story house, andI know he lives with his mom.
I don't think it's her house,but she lives in a separate apartment.
I think somehow, so it's separated. I don't know if she's on the
same property or if it's physically partof the same house. And when she
married Charles, she moved into thehouse he was living in Okay, So

(16:57):
Charles already lived there. And youknow, if Michael and his mom moved
in after she moved in, Idon't know. Yeah. This same year,
Doren and Charles would welcome a babygirl unto their family. On November
twenty sixth, nineteen seventy nine,Deanna Herbert was born and she would come
home to live with her older brotherPaul. But the happiness was not to

(17:18):
last when in nineteen eighty something everyparent dreads happened to the family. Dorene's
son Paul, was found drowned inthe family's backyard pool. Labeled a terrible
accident by authorities. This horrible eventchanged the family forever. Paul was only
three years old at the time,well impossible to know how to deal with
the situation. Dorene's decks husband lashedout at the family and blamed them for

(17:38):
his son's death. William Dennis cameto believe that his son's death was not
an accident, but the result ofnegligence on the part of Dorene and Charles
Herbert, despite neighbors who said otherwise. William Dennis felt that Doreen hadn't been
paying enough attention to Paul and thatshe hadn't jumped into the pool to save
him. A neighbor testified specifically aboutDorene's efforts to rescue Paul. We don't

(18:00):
have transcripts, so I'm not surewhat efforts includes, but that's what they
testified too. According to Dorene,Paul was outside playing and she was watching
him while taking care of Diana inside. She looked away from one second and
then couldn't find him. She wentnext door to look for him and asked
a neighbor for help, and that'swhen they found him in the bottom of
the pool. He was found toolate to revive and I can't imagine going

(18:23):
through any of this, But inthis case, it seems William Dennis's grief,
coupled with his anger over the divorceand custody being awarded to Dorene just
sort of manifested in really unhealthy ways. It caused even more explosive and unhealthy
ideas. For instance, he beganto believe that Doreen just didn't seem sad
enough about their son's death. Andit's just a lot to go through.

(18:44):
I looked up the five stages ofgrief or denial, anger, bargaining,
depression, and acceptance, and hesort of seems to live in the anger
phase. And I know we've talkedabout this in different episodes, though,
is kind of looking at someone andknowing how they're feeling or how they've reacted.
Yeah, it's often seen as peoplewill say, oh, that person
didn't grieve the right way, sothey obviously must be guilty. And I

(19:07):
can see if somebody like William Michaelis as a grieving father and you know,
losing his wife or what he sawor whether he saw his failure or
however he was feeling with his wifemarriage breaking up, but then on top
of which seeing her with a newperson and them having a new kid,

(19:27):
and his son dies, and ifshe's not doesn't appear to be grieving the
right way and already feeling anger,it's just going to feed into it.
I feel if you watch a lotof these TV shows of you know,
you will see a police interview rightaway, and everyone everyone becomes the jury

(19:47):
of how they're grieving. They they'renot grieving correctly or anything like that,
and you can't really ever tell.I think we've all been in our own
situations where we might have grieved properlyto people's eyes, and then maybe not.
And it's not our decision to makeanyway. It's how you want to

(20:08):
grieve, right, I mean,I think it's really hard just to go
through this. He continues to dothings like deposit money into a fun savings
account, which is odd grief rightthere, I think. I mean,
if someone sees that, isn't thata little yeah, but it isn't that
kind of like you hear stories ofpeople that have lost loved ones that never

(20:30):
change anything in their room, orcontinue to drive the person's car, or
have a constant reminder of that personthere. Someone might say that's strange.
They're not grieving correct you know.I think any little thing shows that you
can't tell how anyone is grieving correctly, right, And it's probably made worse

(20:52):
by the fact that you're also grieving. You might not be able to see
other people as clearly through all ofthat pain. William Dennis decides to sue
his ex wife and her husband afterthe death of his son for negligence.
A basic legal definition of negligence inCalifornia, and a quick reminder for those
out there, we are not lawyers. We're gonna talk a lot about laws

(21:15):
in this episode, so just rememberthat it's called gross negligence to California or
a lack of care. Everyone inCalifornia is expected to show a certain amount
of care with respect to others aroundus. The definition of gross negligence is
a lack of any care someone hasto exhibit such an extreme departure of what
someone in their same position would exhibita lack of care and respect to the

(21:36):
prevention of harm. In the suit, he again accused Dorene of causing the
accident by not paying attention and saidthat he had worried for some time that
this might happen. To Paul,he believed the pool to be very dangerous.
According to him, he had askedher to put a fence around the
pool as evidence that she was negligent. She had actually put a fence around
the pool. However, apparent lookingaway for a second is not uncommon.

(21:59):
A jury side with the Herberts,and after the trial, Charles Herbert told
William Dennis that he never wanted himto come to the house again. Basically,
they never wanted to see him again, which is kind of understandable.
To lose your child and then gothrough being sued must be very difficult.
And there were other things as well, things that are difficult under the best
of circumstances and everyone's getting along,things like funeral costs and splitting those up,

(22:22):
and outstanding child support payments. Thingsnot meant to harm anyone further,
but they come up and you haveto deal with them, and they kind
of made him very angry. Despitethe fact that the three lived close to
each other, they only saw eachother once through the years, when they
were at the same shopping center.According to Charles, they didn't speak and
they didn't see each other again.Unfortunately, the lack of seeing each other

(22:44):
didn't seem to lessen any anger onWilliam Michael Dennis's part. The years continued
to make him even angrier at Doreen. Continued to blame her for the death
of his son, and, accordingto him and people that knew him,
his anger blossomed into fantastical ideas ofwhat happened to his son. He believed
Doreen had lied at the trial overnegligence. At some point, he thought
it might be possible that she hadlet him die purposefully. He was so

(23:07):
angry and unable to deal with theloss of his son and began to think
that Doreen needed to suffer. Sheneeded to know what it feels like to
be him and also to be Paul. After Paul's death, Michael Dennis did
receive counseling, and he reported thatit helped him. He reported to the
doctor or facility that it helped,and he eventually stopped. Then in nineteen
eighty four, William Dennis was laidoff from his job at Lockheed lockeed refers

(23:30):
to Lockheed missiles in space program.It was located in Sunnyvale, California.
Sunnyvale is about twelve miles west ofSan Jose, Lockheed was a manufacturing plant
that developed satellites. It was nearMoffett Field, which was a military airbase
and is now both military and civilian. Lockheed would eventually become Lockheed Martin when
it merges with Martin Marietta in nineteenninety five. At Lockheed, William Dennis

(23:53):
worked as a sprayer of manufactured tilesthat were then used on space shuttles.
He has given the choice of insteadof loot using his job altogether, he
could move to a lower job.He does do this. This new job
is downgrade from what he was doing. He joined the document production unit.
And it's not just a demotion entitlebut also in pay. He had been
making thirteen dollars and fifty five centsan hour in his prior position and now

(24:17):
only makes ten dollars and ninety ninecents an hour. And just to give
you kind of an idea, minimumwage in California in nineteen eighty four is
three dollars and thirty five cents anhour. William Dennis's salary is twenty eight
thousand dollars a year, and mediumincome in California in nineteen eighty was eighteen
thousand. So although it's more expensiveto live in San Jose. This is
kind of a I don't know,it's not as low as it sounds,

(24:40):
right, And I bet just minimumwage jobs in general probably aren't that big
in San Jose. I mean,if it's that expensive to live there,
you're probably getting paid more. Likein certain areas of California, you still
make more than minimum wage even thoughminimum wage is there. And so twenty
twenty eight thousand a year and twentyeighteen is roughly about sixty eight thousand dollars.

(25:02):
So if you look at comparable citiesin the area in Silicon Valley and
he's working at that time for agovernment contractor you know, probably at one
time that would be an okay middleclass living. But we're starting to move
into that area, like you said, where we have a lot of higher
end jobs and a lot of lowerpaying wage jobs. And I think that

(25:26):
that middle that slice of that middleclass is getting smaller and smaller. Like
most people, he was very unhappywith this demotion and made it known to
many people, but it was morestress and anger to add to his already
consuming anger with his ex wife,which all came to a crashing end in
nineteen eighty four. October thirty first, nineteen eighty four, was another Halloween
night for most families in San Josewho were getting dressed up trick or treating,

(25:49):
getting ready for parties, plenty timewith friends, neighbors, and loved
ones. It was a chilly fiftysix degrees that night, and while many
people found themselves at parties or inthe movie theater watching October's big movie,
The Terminator or the cult classic BodyDouble, many families bundled up together in
an effort to fill bags with poundsof candy. The biggest fear for many

(26:10):
people that night was some terrible personmight poison or stick a razor blade in
their child's candy or apple, whichreminded me of trick or treating in the
eighties and after at least once wewent and had candy X ray at the
hospital. I don't know if youguys did that. I never did,
but I always heard about it.No, I didn't either. And apparently
this idea of people getting poisoned orrazor bladed is basically a myth because it's

(26:32):
so rare. In nineteen eighty three, Abigail van Buren or Dear Abbey as
you might know, her wrote anadvice calm about Halloween warning parents said at
least one child would become ill withpoisoned candy or an apple with a razor
blade, and the fear took off. Ten years later, her sister Anne
Landers would write an advice calm warningof the same thing, and the fear
would continue. There was a manwho poisoned his son's Halloween candy, but

(26:55):
apparently there isn't a case of astranger poisoning random kids candy. So I
think the lesson here is be afraidof the people you know. Although in
San Jose, and especially in theneighborhoods that Herberts lived in, there was
an added fear, and the monthsleading up to the Halloween there had been
two murders of two women that setpeople on edge. There were brutal murders
of their own. The first happenedin August when a bank worker named Tanya

(27:18):
Zach went missing. She wouldn't befound until September of nineteen eighty four,
in a strange instance where a psychiccontacted the family and led them to the
spot where she was left. Shehad been beaten to death with a ball
peen hammer and thrown down a hillnear a reservoir. This murder wouldn't be
solved until nineteen eighty nine. Theother was the murder of Laurie Leigh Miller,
who went missing on September twenty sixth. A bicyclist found her body in

(27:41):
the beginning of October. She hadbeen tied up and strangled, and in
the process of looking for her,searchers would find two other corpses, one
a woman and one a man.Not connected. Miller's murder would be tied
to a horrible serial murderer later inthe month. Fernando Coda would be caught
Emilpitas, California. In October.He would have another woman in his van

(28:02):
that he had murdered. He wouldcommit suicide. These are just a few
of the things happening in San Joseat the time, so it makes sense
that it might frighten people. Iknow we talked about this in a couple
of other episodes. Where things arealready going on, people are a little
on edge, maybe even a littlemore careful, more aware of their surroundings,
and Charles Herbert would later tell policethat Dorene had been afraid she had

(28:23):
been getting threatening phone calls and hadan encounter with someone on the street she
believed later tried to break into theirhouse. So just some very scary things.
After work, Charles Herbert came hometo take his three year old Diana
trick or treating. His wife,Dorene, was eight months pregnant and unable
to walk comfortably long distances. Shewould stay home and pass out candy to

(28:44):
trick or treaders. Dorene had triedfor some time to get pregnant and had
suffered miscarriages that had taken a toll. Of importance was making sure she did
everything to keep the little boy,who was just a month away from joining
the family safe. She had alsogrown quite big. Deren wasn't very tall.
She was shorter than five feet tall, and people who knew her would
remark that she was out as faras she was high. This may getting

(29:07):
around even more difficult. The sunbegan to go down in San Jose that
night at five eleven p m,which means it wouldn't be dark or tall
about six or six thirty or so, and kids all around the city began
to get excited. Around this time, Charles took Diana out trick or treating,
and Dorene stayed behind handing out candy. Several neighbors stopped by the house
that night with their children. Theyremembered Dorene handing out candy very visibly pregnant.

(29:32):
Neighbors also noticed someone across the street, someone they didn't know, although
making an identification would be hard.While Charles was walking Diana house to house
collecting candy, neighbors noticed a manstanding across the street from the Herbert house
in costume and mask and seemingly staringat the house intently. Between six thirty
and seven p m. Several neighborsknocked on the Herbert door for candy and

(29:56):
were able to describe the man acrossthe street as dressed as a wolf.
The wolf masks the man wore wasnot a serious one meant to instill fear.
Instead, it was a much morecartoony mask with a long tongue hanging
out and bulging eyes. It wasoften referred to as a quote big bad
wolf mask. I have a veryLooney Tunes idea in my head of what
this mask must look like. Wewill put a picture we have from the

(30:18):
episode of Unmasked on our site andon social media. The man behind the
mask, however, remained unknown.Between seven pm and eight pm, Charles
and Diana returned home. They haddone a lot of trick or treating,
but Charles had purposely not gone toa few houses nearest them so Dorene could
experience Halloween with their daughter. Thetwo switched places, Charles handing out candy

(30:38):
and Dorene taking Diana to knock ona few more houses. Around eight pm,
Dorene and Diana returned home, tiredand done for the night. The
family had given out most of theircandy that night and were running low.
Charles decided to make a quick tripto a local liquor store about fifteen minutes
away to refill their supplies. Heleft at eight forty five. He also

(31:00):
up by a neighbor's house on theway. They were having a party.
As he left, he asked Doreento begin locking up the house as it
was getting very late. Was Halloweenthis time? Is it on a Saturday
or a Friday? No? Itwas actually on a Wednesday this year.
Okay, that's I just find thatweird, Like there's parties. I guess
it's probably an early party, butstill, well, I can see that

(31:21):
too, especially in neighborhood. Iknow growing up where I had relatives that
lived in an area that was reallyheavily traffic trafficed for the trick or treaters
that would come down. So wewould all congregate there and the adults would
have dinner and have a drink,and then then the kids would all go
out and we walk around the neighborhoodsand kind of come back and forth.
So you know, that might havebeen in the middle of the week and

(31:45):
where we are talking about eight o'clock, so it's I can see it.
Yeah, it's not really late,right, and it's difference between a rager
and then having a few friends over. Yeah. After he left, a
knock came at the Herbert's front door. Assuming another trick or treater was there
for Candy, Dorene answered the door, but the person outside was not a
child and not there for Candy.Pushing his way inside the front entrance of

(32:07):
the house, the man in thewolf masts began to yell. Dorene immediately
told the man to get out ofmy house. In reply, the mass
man yelled back, I'm going tokill you. Quickly thinking Dorene yelled for
her child, Diana, to hide, and the three year old followed her
mother's instructions as quickly as she could. She had behind a living room couch
and overheard everything that happened next.Later, the only witness to her mother's

(32:30):
murder, she would be unable torecall many details. Whether she never peeked
out the scene or trauma made thosememories difficult to recall is hard to say.
After all, she was very littleand what happened to her mother was
very terrible. She does recall hearingthe events, and what she does remember
is that she left her hiding placeonly twice, once to take a peek

(32:52):
at what was happening, and anothertime to rush to get her comforting blanket.
She stayed as her mother told herhidden. It would take some time
to fully piece together what happened toDorene that night, but it was horrific.
Sometime after the man pushed his wayinto the house, he pulled out
an eighteen inch machete and began attackingDorene. During was never able to get

(33:13):
farther than the entrance near the frontdoor, which led directly into the living
room. The exact cause of deathwas extinguination from multiple chopping wounds. But
even this terrible cause does not describefully how horribly Doren was treated. Before
we go any further, we justwant to reiterate that we're gonna be to
be getting into the graphic nature ofthe crime right now, so if anyone

(33:37):
does not want to listen at themoment, or we just want to warn
you. The weapon the murderer usedwas unrelenting and caused many wounds. The
man in the mask used the weaponin slashing, chopping, and stabbing motions.
Dorene suffered cuts to the front andback of her head, some so
deep they penetrated her skull and intothe brain. Her left hand was completely

(34:00):
severed above the wrist. Many ofthe wounds she suffered around her body cut
all the way to the bone.One severed the head of the humorus,
while another fractured her femur on herright breast. She suffered three stabbing wounds.
Sometime during the attack, the manwere in the wolf mask ripped off
his mask and threw it into theentryway. Police believed the man beneath the

(34:21):
mask wanted her to know who hewas, but his violence was not done
yet. The man slashed a nineinch gaping wound to Doreen's abdomen. This,
along with several other chopping cuts,caused her abdomen to open. Both
her stomach and large bowl were cutopen. There were also cuts to her
uterus and an eighteen inch cut thatwent all the way through it. At

(34:42):
some point, either by the assailantpulling him out or by being expelled by
all the violence, Doreen's fetus wasexpelled. The mass man's anger wasn't just
aimed at Doreen. We won't getinto detail here, but her baby boy
was treated very similarly to her.One of the cuts he suffered ended his
life. This cut would have beenenough to stop his heart and circulation.

(35:02):
When the fetus is autopsied, noheiress found in its lungs. Police do
not think it ever breathed or livedindependently of Doren, either due to its
or her injuries. However, ifshe had given birth on Halloween, it
would have been capable of living outsidethe mother. The man then walked through
the house looking for Diana, yellingout her name and threatening her. Diana

(35:23):
did not move from her hiding spotbehind the couch, and after what must
have felt like an eternity. Theman finally left the house. Near to
nine p m. Charles Herbert returnedhome from the store. When he approached
the house, he noticed that thefront door was unlocked. This was unexpected
because he had talked with Dorene aboutlocking the house up before he left.

(35:43):
As he opened the door, whathe saw was worse than he could have
imagined. The first thing he sawwas Doren lying on the floor at the
edge of the entryway and the livingroom. She was covered in blood.
In the living room, he couldsee a fetus on the floor, and
the first thing that jumped into hismind was that she might miscarried while he
was gone, But this was ashort lived thought as he saw near the

(36:04):
fetus was Dorene's left hand, separatedfrom her body. Quickly moving to her
side, he grabbed her arm andbegan to hold it tightly near the wrists
where it had been severed. Itwas gushing blood, and Charles's first instinct
was to try to stop the bleeding. As he did so, he started
to notice cuts on her neck andstomach. Letting go of her arm,
he ran to the telephone. Thearea had become saturated in Dorene's blood,

(36:27):
and as he moved to the telephone, he slipped and fell in a puddle
of blood, getting blood all overhim in the process. Picking up the
phone, he tried desperately to callnine one one. Inside the receiver,
all he got was a busy signalhe couldn't get through. Panicked, he
called the fire department directly. Someone on the end of this call picked
up and they were able to puta call out to the police and ambulance.

(36:50):
His next phone call was to aneighbor. He needed someone to help
anyone. At the end of thisphone call, he glances at the couch
and sees his daughter, Diana washiding behind it. Immediately he grabbed her
and put her in the kitchen,thinking he might be able to shield her
from having to see anything else.He then rushed back to Doren. Doring
was in terrible shape, but shehad not yet died. Trying desperately,

(37:13):
Charles attempted to stop any bleeding whocould Arriving at the house. The neighbor
held on to Diana and kept herfrom going into the living room. Eventually
she would take her outside. Thisneighbor would say that Diana told her Dorene
at one point yelled out the nameMichael. She also told her neighbor that
the man in the wolf mask hadthreatened to kill her if she told anyone
at some point in the night.She also said that while hiding during the

(37:35):
attack, she heard her mother andthe baby crying. Between nine to nine
fifteen, the fire department and theparamedics arrived at the Herbert home. Immediately,
they take stock of the scene,but some things are difficult to understand.
Paramedics begin to work on Doreen,and she still has a pulse,
so they know they need to gether to the hospital. They loaded her
on to a stretcher and began toput her in the ambulance. In shock

(37:58):
and desperation, Charles tries to assistthe paramedics in any way he can.
As soon as she's loaded into theambulance, his first instinct, as it
would be many of us, wasto get in with her. He didn't
want to leave her side, butparamedics wouldn't allow him into the ambulance,
and when Charles becomes upset, thepolice arrest him and put him into a
car outside his house. Police sayhe was erratic and had an alcohol in

(38:19):
his breath, which makes complete senseto me that he would be upset and
erratic. I don't know what doyou guys think. For me, I
can completely understand him being erratic orneeding to be restrained. I mean,
he leaves at eight forty five andhe gets back at around nine o'clock,
so in less than fifteen minutes,his entire world is destroyed, you know.

(38:39):
And on top of which I canonly imagine from a police perspective,
you show up, here's somebody who'scovered in blood. As a police I
think my first response we go,he's guilty. Yeah, I mean,
I think that's probably why he didn'tget in. They're just making sure the
safety of everyone else. And Ican understand his point of view. I

(39:00):
can understand the other people's point ofview. You don't know, you have
like an active situation going on.The whole situation is horrible, and I
don't know what you could have done. Everyone's making reactions right as they come.
And the idea that he does,I mean, you did mention that
he had the police report. He'sgot alcohol in his breath again, probably

(39:21):
from stopping over at his friend's house. But yeah, I think you make
a great point of that, keepingeveryone safe as their first priority. Dianna,
meanwhile, is put into a neighbor'scar outside. Trying to keep her
from the scene and protect her asmuch as possible becomes their job. All
police begin to look through the houseand try to put together the horrible scene.
Charles has left in a police cruiseroutside. By the second he grows

(39:45):
angrier. By the time Dorena arrivesat the hospital, she's pronounced dead.
Charles never gets to the hospital tosee her. The job of police is
now to piece together what happened.When police reserve is Glen Sufton arrived on
the scene. What he sees isastounding. The scene is very bloody and
chaotic. Neighbors, fire, paramedicsor moving in and out of the crime

(40:05):
scene. Durne has been loaded upto the hospital, and paramedics on scene
or trying everything to resuscitate the fetus. Unfortunately, its injuries are far too
gone. Please search the house forany sign of a perpetrator. Without much
information to go on, they needto make sure there isn't anyone still in
the house. They find nothing,but they do shut down the scene to
preserve any evidence. The scene isbloody, but seems mainly kept to the

(40:29):
area of the entryway and the livingroom. Everything else seems to be blood
tracked in by people moving through thecrime scene. Upon entering the house,
there is blood spatter on the entryway, a stool near the front door,
a jack lantern the front door,and on the ceiling. Later it will
be determined that this blood spatter wasin fact velocity blood stains stains from blood
that flew off the weapon as itwas used over and over to strike her.

(40:52):
There are also slash marks on thefront door and on the eight foot
ceiling above the entryway. Unsure exactlywhat caused these marks and the wounds to
Dorene. Police believe it was aheavy sharp swordlike instrument, perhaps meat cleaver.
In the front porch area, awolf mask is found on a corner.
Police on scene are able to determineit does not belong to any of

(41:13):
the Herberts. Late into the night, the police continue working the scene.
This was a murder that was hyperviolent and personal. This with Charles's behavior
leads them to continue to suspect hemay have done this. He is taken
to a police station to answer questions. He is strip searched and his clothes
are collected. Police also talk withDiana, and their interview confirms their suspicions

(41:34):
that someone the family knew may havecommitted the crime. While interviewing neighbors,
someone tells them that Dorene had beenmarried before and things had been tense,
and they look into this. AndI just think it's kind of interesting because
in other cases we hear about wesometimes see police having I don't know,
tunnel vision. It would be easyhere to think Charles did this and not
really think about other suspects. Right, we have somebody covered in blood,

(41:58):
acting erratic. You know, thatprobably was the initial thought. That's why
he was in the police cruiser.But I think with anything you have to
look at everything hopefully. And Iunderstand the whole tunnel vision thing, but
I think that like documentaries you seenowadays, it seems like there's they try
to put them one sided on tunnelvision. But I think if you know

(42:20):
your police detective or police work isgood, they have to think of everything,
right. Police also find drops ofblood outside the home on the sidewalk.
These create a trail and they followit to the end of the street.
The trail goes to the pedestrian bridgeand then continues on it. At
the other side of the bridge,they stop, leading police to think that
someone may have gotten into a vehicle. At that point, witnesses come forward

(42:45):
to say that during the night theysaw a man with a wolf mask walk
over the bridge. The person waswearing coveralls and carrying a bag that appeared
to be heavy. Eventually they cometo the conclusion that Charles didn't commit this
crime. Though I think he wasin police custody for about a day,
they were able to narrow down hisawli by. However quickly they figured out
he didn't do it wasn't really quicklyenough, at least not for Charles.

(43:07):
He wasn't able to ride with Doreneto the hospital, and sitting in the
back of a police cruiser with whilehis wife and daughter suffered was difficult to
swallow. With some information, apossible suspect appeared to be Dorene's ex husband,
William Michael Dennis, who often wentby Michael, and at twelve twenty
three a m. They arrived athis two story house, just six blocks

(43:28):
or so from the crime scene totell him what had happened and questioned him
about his whereabouts. Arriving at hishouse, police rang the door bell to
his home and no one answered.Upstairs, police could see a light on
in what appeared to be his bedroom. They tried several more times, but
no one came to the door.Police decided to call County Communications. They
asked him to call the house andlet whoever is inside, No, they

(43:51):
are downstairs and ask them to openthe door, which just made me think
a lot about cell phones. Howdifferent things are in this story just a
short amount of time, How thatone device has changed how you would do
your job. They do so,and when then they call, William Michael
Dennis picks up the phone. Oncethe call ended, police outside the house
can see a light in the bedroomgo off and what appears to be a

(44:12):
hallway light go on. Then theyhear the sound of running water for a
few minutes inside the house. Aftera few minutes, William Michael Dennis answers
the door and tries to give theimpression to police that he had been sleeping,
but police outside are immediately suspicious ashe doesn't look like someone who had
been dead asleep and couldn't hear thedoorbell. Police inform William Michael Dennis that
his ex wife was attacked in herhome, and they inquired as to if

(44:34):
he had information on the crime.They also asked him if they could come
inside his house to talk without anyissue, He lets them inside his home.
Once inside, the police and Williamssit down at a kitchen table.
Police inform him that not only hasDorene been attacked, but that she has
been murdered. William Dennis's reply wassimple, he said, quote, you're
kidding. While talking with William Dennis, the police noticed that he had cuts

(44:58):
on his right hand. The cutswere bandaged, but appeared deep because they
were still bleeding and the bandages weresoaked with blood. Police continued talking with
William Dennis at some point asked tosee his identification. William didn't have his
ID in his kitchen, but toldpolice it was upstairs in his bedroom and
he had to go get it.Police let him walk upstairs to get his
ID, but send a police officerwith him to watch him. When they

(45:21):
entered his bedroom, the officer noticedthat the bed did not look as if
anyone had been sleeping in it.While upstairs, William Dennis seemed to become
irritated, and as the police officerwatched him, he noticed that he kept
looking over at his bed, specificallythe headboard. Later, when police search
the home, they find a loadedrevolver near the headboard. After getting his
ID, police asked for permission tosearch his home and William Dennis gives them

(45:45):
permission. As police start to search, they find many things right away that
lead them to believe that William Dennisis very much involved. In his garage,
they find drops of blood in frontof a washer and dryer. Officers
follow this blood and it leads toa larger trail of blood outside at the
garage. They also find blood inthe kitchen, on a pair of jeans
lying on his bed, on aset of keys also in his bedroom,

(46:07):
and more bloody bandages in a garbagein his bathroom. At this time,
police arrest William Dennis and go aboutsecuring the house to preserve any possible evidence,
and go about a more thorough searchof the house. During this,
they find his mother asleep in aseparate apartment in the rear of the house.
She tells police that her and herson had dinner around six or six
thirty pm. She believed she wentto her apartment about eight fifteen pm that

(46:30):
night and didn't see William again.Police also talk with a neighbor of William
Dennis who said they saw him atsix thirty pm when he came by to
give him some misdelivered mail. Theneighbor said that William had told him that
he was going to a Halloween partythat night. While searching the premises,
they find William Dennis's vehicle parked inhis driveway, even though it's about two
am at the time. Police feelthe hood and say that it still feels

(46:53):
warm. The entire vehicle actually thinkit's a truck, is very dirty and
dusty, with a driver's side doorand window are wiped down. Inside the
vehicle, there was blood on theignition switch, radio knob, on a
rope in the trunk, on thesteering column, and also on the headrest
the driver's seat, and finally ona mat under the guess pedal. Detectives

(47:14):
also find another trail of blood abouta hundred yards west of William Dennis's house.
This trail led to the driveway andalso met up with the second trail
of blood near a garage. Nextto the garage was an empty garbage can,
and on the cam was a ballof blood stained fibers. At two
thirty a m. William Dennis istake him down to the police station.
He's read his rights and he's underarrest. William waves his rights and gives

(47:37):
a taped interview with the police.During the interview, he maintains his innocence
and tells police that he left fromwork at four pm and went home,
where he stayed the entire night.Like his mother, he says he had
dinner with her and only left thehouse once to look around outside. He
wanted to check things out because theyhadn't had very many trick or treaters.

(47:57):
Police then ask William Dennis about allof his Halloween costumes throughout the years.
He listed several, but never mentionedthe wolf costume or mask they found while
searching his house. A week later, police find a picture William Dennis just
a year earlier at a Halloween party. He was wearing the same wolf masks
they found at Dorene Herbert's home,as well as matching hands that went with
the costume. The assumption is thatit was his wolf mask at the house,

(48:21):
but they searched his home for it. Nonetheless, and never find this
particular costume. With this picture he'swearing the mask and the hands. Is
it just is it definitely him wearingit? I'm just wondering because you look
at a picture you have a maskon and these wolf hands. The picture
was at a certain clothes that hewas wearing. Besides that that they found
that they knew that it's him.Was it just the height the build?

(48:45):
I don't know how they know thatit's him. If you watched the Unmasked
episode, there's a little bit differentstory about how they find a picture.
They actually go through his a thingwith all his numbers of his friends and
they find yeah, and they finda friend who has the picture and she's
in it as well, and shesays that's him. Oh, okay,
that makes sense then, And Idon't know if he later when is shown

(49:07):
the picture he identifies himself as well. I'm not sure about that. Police
also inquire about the cuts on hishand. According to William Dennis, he
had cut his hand when he tosseda kitchen knife in the air and accidentally
caught it by the blade. Whenasked if he if after he cut himself
with the knife, he had goneinto the garage, he couldn't remember if
he had or not. When askedabout Doreen, William Dennis maintained that he

(49:29):
hadn't walked near Doren's house or thepedestrian bridge near her home. I should
know here that people also called thepolice to let them know that they saw
a man wearing a wolf costume,mask, etc. Around the same area
that same night. However, thismask described by these collars indicated that was
more of a serious mask, notthe cartoony one warned by Doren's murderer and
by William Dennis at the Halloween partya year earlier. Police keep William Dennis

(49:52):
under arrest, but sent him toSanta Clara Valley Medical Center to get his
hands looked at and stitched up.While there, he stayed at the hospital's
lock up ward. According to police, William Dennis continued to talk with him
willingly throughout the night. You onlystopped when police tried to ask him about
a possible motive for killing Doreen.It was then that William Dennis asked for

(50:12):
a lawyer. On November first,nineteen eighty four, and autopsies performed on
Doreen and the medical examiner determines thatshe was most likely murdered with a swordlike
instrument such as a hatchet or amachete. A weapon was never found,
however, police did find a labeloff of a Stanley eighteen inch machete,
as well as a sheath for amachete at William Dennis's house. They also

(50:34):
find a receipt from the Moon PetisBuilders Emporium, which was a hardware store
at emil Petis, a town northof San Jose and also part of Silicon
Valley. The Builders Emporium was aset of stores in California during this time.
Most of them were in southern California, but they were a California only
thing. We'll link some commercials fromthat time because they're always amazing. The

(50:55):
entire chain went out of business innineteen ninety three. We always like to
tell you about unique California chains orthings that you could only see in California,
and this is one of them.There are apparently some stores with this
name now mainly in the Bay Area, but we couldn't find pictures even on
their Facebook page. Builders and Poriumswere adut at your self store, not

(51:17):
unlike our home depots and lows oreven Ace hardwares, but they suffered a
lot when larger chain showed up inMass nineteen eighties and nineties. Please purchase
the exact model machete. They checkto see if it fits in the grooves
that were created in the Herbert ceilingby the weapon the murderer used. It
fits perfectly. They enter it intoevidence as an example of what they believe

(51:39):
William Dennis used during their murder,and from that night on they believe Lolliam
Dennis is their only real suspect.Well, this is all happening. Dianna
Herbert is placed with friends and family. It seems her father had a difficult
time dealing with this, which isunderstandable. She starts receiving counseling. On
November fifth, nineteen eighty four,William Dennis is suddenly released from custody.

(52:00):
According to police, they don't haveenough evidence to hold him and take the
case to trial. The press havebeen covering this case all over the country
and the details are so horrific,so when he's released, people are confused
and angry. To family and friends, this is scary and really hard to
understand, and even in the articlesI read, police seem frustrated by it,

(52:22):
but police make a point to saythat he's the only person under investigation
and that they're sure they have theright person. And as frustrating as I'm
sure it is to have to letWilliam Dennis go for lack of evidence,
I can understand that they need todo this. Unfortunately, it can take
some time to get back tests andthey can't hold him indefinitely. Also,
Dianna Herbert didn't pick him out ofa lineup. She saw a man in

(52:43):
a mask, so really, whatcould she identify? And again, she's
just a child and she's been througha traumatic event, so it's understandable and
honestly, this is a lot ofpressure for a child who's just been through
all of this. On his wayout of jail, William Dennis is interviewed
by a journalist. He says,quote, I didn't do it. I
hope they catch the person who did. I'm not the one who did it.

(53:04):
Letting him go would be really deflating. But in the turn of events
on November sixth, nineteen eighty four, just the next day, William Dennis
is re arrested. According to thedistrict attorney, they get new evidence something
he calls quote breakthrough evidence when someof the tests that were being run come
back. The biggest is a labanalysis on blood evidence collected at William Dennis's
home. According to the results,some of the blood in William Dennis's garage

(53:28):
matched Doreen. And everything I readsaid matched, use that word without any
detail, And I think they mightbe talking about blood type matching because DNA
technology is on its way and thelater nineteen eighties, but not in nineteen
eighty four. You know, afterall that they release him and then they
re arrest him and then they saymatched. Like I'm just wondering how we

(53:50):
see nowadays on social media, theoutpouring petitions, everything, Like right away
you were saying this is a nationalcase. You could have every news news
broadcast interviewing people who are just reallymad that they released him, and it
might have put a lot of pressureon the district attorney, the police and

(54:13):
everything like that, so they uselike terms like matched and everything and just
re arrest him so to save facemaybe or something like that. It's also
it also could be the idea ofwhat pressure they are under to do it
correctly as well, that unless theyhave the proverbial smoking gun of an actual

(54:37):
blood type match or irrefutable evidence atthis person. They I can see not
wanting to go through to arrest him, and then just because they've already done
that once, you know, theydetained that, They detained Charles under the
idea that he was it, andthen eventually let him go because he had
nothing to do with it. Oh. When I say national, I mean

(54:57):
that it's picked up by papers.I don't think it's really what we think
of now where people are outside thehome. I'm not entirely sure that that's
what's happening, but I do knowthat when they let him go. Police
are very frustrated with this as well, because they believe he's dangerous and they
don't want him on the streets.And I think because of that, they
kind of make a lot of phonecalls and amp the pressure up to labs

(55:17):
to get some of the stuff donea little bit quicker than they might have
done before. They were probably maybejust hoping that it was done before they
would have to release him. Yeah, I mean, you hope that some
of that stuff goes quickly, butit doesn't really always. Well then and
them speaking to that and saying we'reletting him go, but he is the
only person that we're looking at.I can imagine that might asway some public

(55:40):
fears too, especially in the areathat he's going back to. Right,
But it had to be scary forthe family. Oh my god. Yeah,
So I think they put some pressureto get some of these tests done
quicker so that they can re arresthim. And also it's important to note
that it's important that people be awareof investigations going on and how attention to
that can I don't know, getthings done a little bit quicker, right,

(56:04):
And again that I to the endthat once we arrest this person,
that person is going to go totrial, and at trial it has to
be done correctly in order to makesure that this person is punished for the
crime that he committed. Yeah,this is not someone you want to get
back out. No. Later inNovember, William Dennis is arraigned and pleads

(56:25):
not guilty. In December of nineteeneighty four, a preliminary hearing is held
to determine if there's enough evidence totry William Dennis for the murders of Doreen
Herbert and the feet is she wascarrying during this hearing, the ditric attorney
presented evidence that William Dennis had beenplotting the murder of both Doreen and her
husband for some time. Friends ofWilliam testified that he was very angry and

(56:46):
bitter over their divorce and the deathof his son. He tells several people,
including his lawyer, that he wasfantasizing about drowning Doreen and Charles in
the ocean to avenge Paul's death.At his home, police find two coffin
like boxes, two seventy inchcloth bodybags, and two sea anchors, and
maps and information on the San FranciscoBay, which was used as evidence that

(57:08):
he had been plotting for some time. Interestingly, the coffins were built to
different sizes and they happened to bethe height of Charles and Dorene. If
you remember, Dorene is shorter thanfive feet tall, so one of the
coffins was very noticeably short. InApril of nineteen eighty five, the judge
and the preliminary hearing decided there wasenough evidence to charge William with the murder

(57:29):
and go to trial. So doyou think he wasn't watching the house?
He didn't know that Charles had leftbecause he was all about also killing Charles.
I'm just wondering, like, ifhe was watching the house or not
and saw Charles leave and then decidedto go in. I'm not sure.

(57:49):
Witnesses say that he was standing outside, so in one respect, I think
he probably did see him leave.He will say later that he didn't know
if Charles was there or not,and that he knew as he was doing
this Charles could have killed him ifhe had been there, but he didn't
really think about that, so I'mnot really sure what was running through his
mind. The trial is meant tostart in May, but doesn't actually occur

(58:12):
until nineteen eighty eight. William Dennisis charged with murder of Dorine and her
fetus. In order to qualify forthe death penalty, the crime has to
fulfill one of the special circumstances.In this case, William Dennis is found
guilty of both murders, then hewill be eligible for the death penalty,
which leads us to a couple ofthings we should talk about. The first
is a right to a speedy trial. In California charges such as these,

(58:35):
a three year weight is not uncommon. The time between arrest and trial will
vary, of course by county.For a family like murder, arrayment has
to happen within ten days of beingarrested. After this, trial can start
within sixty days, and in fact, in this case, after the preliminary
hearing, the judge scheduled a trialstart of May nineteen eighty five. However,
defendants can wave their right to aspeedy trial to give their lawyers time

(58:59):
to build a defen It's interesting thatif you charge somebody with murder, as
a prosecutor, you really need tobe ready to go to trial right away
where the defense the defense can stallor longer, but you have to have
your entire case ready to go asthe DA. Yeah, I mean we
should say we're not lawyers. Sothis is what I found researching. So

(59:22):
yeah, that interested me as well, because that's what it seems like.
Trial begins in nineteen eighty eight,and the first witness to testify is Dianna
Herbert. She is now eight yearsold. She's quite rightly afraid she still
has the voice of the man whomurdered her mother in her head, threatening
her life. The judge has MichaelDennis put his head down so it would

(59:42):
be less intimidating. But again,this is so much to ask of a
child who has been through something sotraumatic. I think it's just horrible.
He's still in the room. Youshould I mean, can you ask him
to leave? Do you know?I think they probably would have if that
was a possibility. Okay, justputting your head. That doesn't How does
that affect the idea of facing youraccuser. I guess she's she's not an

(01:00:06):
accuser, but she's also a child. No, one hundred percent understand.
I think that's where what's right sometimesconflicts with the rules of law. This
trial is a little different than otherswe've covered. When the trial starts,
William Michael Dennis pleaded not guilty,but a few days into it he changes
his plea, or really his defense. His defense is now that he admits

(01:00:28):
to committing the murder of Doreen Herbert, but that he did so because of
a mental illness. Thus the argumentbecomes not about whether he did or did
not commit the crime, but whatkind of murder it was. His main
defense was that the murders resulted froma mental illness and were not premeditated or
deliberate, So instead of finding guiltor innocence. The jury is tasked with

(01:00:49):
determining whether or not the murder waspremeditated, as a prosecutor describes, or
voluntary manslaughter because William Dennis was sufferingfrom a mental illness had become delusional or
distraught. The defense also presented acase that William Dennis had no idea at
the time of the murder that DorenHerbert was pregnant. So let's just take
these basic questions one at a timeto give you an idea of what William

(01:01:10):
Michael Dennis could have been charged witha sort of a basic definition of the
murders. First degree murder, whichis what the prosecution is saying he's guilty
of, is a murder that ispremeditated with malice of fourth thought, which
means a person has an intent tokill. Second degree murder is defined as
a murder with no premeditation, butwith malice of forethought and an understanding of

(01:01:31):
your actions. Voluntary manslaughter is amurder with malice of forethought but without a
full understanding of your actions, thusyou have less culpability. And finally,
involuntary manslaughter, which doesn't really occurhere, but is a murder that has
no premeditation, no malice of forethought, but your actions were so irresponsible to
a degree that you caused the murder. So then an example a first degree

(01:01:55):
murderer would be I plan the murderof someone, say my neighbor, I
carry it out, I kill him. I know it's wrong, I do
it anyway, with planning ahead oftime. Right, it's considered the worst
kind of murder. And then seconddegree would be that you did it,

(01:02:15):
but you didn't plan it. Itjust kind of happened, like in the
heat of the moment. Yeah,it could be the heat of the moment,
depending on what that means legally,if you have passion, for instance,
can often lower the charge to avoluntary manslaughter. But for in this
instance, if you kill someone andyou also kill somebody else, if you
walk into a building and you're thereto shoot a particular person, but then

(01:02:37):
you also happen to shoot other peopleyou were there, you had an intent
to kill, you could be seconddream murder, Does that make sense?
But first degree for the whole reasonyou were going to kill someone in the
first place, right, So thatperson's murder might be first degree, and
then the other murders you committed mightbe second degree. It sort of depends
on the jury and the prosecutor,and there's a whole bunch of other stuff

(01:02:58):
that goes into This is just thebasic definitions. And then voluntary matters,
voluntary manslaughter is I think that's thepart that I get confused on it.
It's it's with malice aforethought, whichmeans I'm thinking about killing you, or
I'd like to kill you, butI'm not clear of my actions or right.

(01:03:19):
So if what seems clear in thiscase, for instance, is that
William Michael Dennis acted, he meantto kill Doreene, but if he was
if he also had a mental illness, he didn't have a full understanding of
what he was doing, so he'sless culpable of the crime, so so
more emotionless, less thought. Right, the passion comes into that. It

(01:03:43):
just sort of depends, and it'sup to a jury to decide. We'll
go over that in a second.And then involuntaries like a lot of times
like drunk driving, right, yeah, or for instance, if a coach
or a parent were to work theirchild, you know, regular daily activities,
and that kid maybe doesn't eat ordream enough and then they pass away,
or they die, you can beheld responsible for that. You didn't
have the intent to harm the childor to kill them, but your actions

(01:04:06):
led to that. Okay, Solet's take the argument of premeditation first,
because it's an essential question in thistrial whether or not William Michael Dennis had
been planning to kill the family andwhether he went there that night of Halloween
to do so. His defense isthat he had no intention of killing Doreen
when he went to her house,but became overwhelmed by his anger and sadness

(01:04:28):
seeing other kids trick or treating,and thinking about his son Paul, that
he acted without thought. To backthis up, William Michael Dennis said that
he didn't remember much of the murderand that he didn't see colors while he
committed it, not seeing color asa common effect during blind rage. The
prosecution presents evidence he had been planningthe murders or both Doreen and Charles,
and not just by drowning, whichwe talked about earlier. They showed this

(01:04:51):
jury that Hammad boxes the bags andanchors they found. He had told various
people that he had bought the machetewith Doreen in mind about a month or
so before the murder happened to negatethe rage theory. The prosecutor also presented
one of the conversations that William MichaelDennis had with police, in which he
described parts of the attack and color, including what Doren was wearing. The

(01:05:13):
mediat part of Dennis's defense, though, is that he wasn't responsible for his
actions because of a mental illness.And remember, a mental illness is an
affirmative defense, so it's up tothe defense to prove and the jury to
decide on. Key to proving thisis that your mental illness made you one
incapable of understanding the nature of thecriminal act and two incapable of distinguishing between

(01:05:34):
right and wrong. And just alittle fun fact. Insanity is a common
defense I know in movies and TV, but it isn't often used in court,
and one statistic I found said thatless than one percent of defendants use
this nationwide. And it's a relativelynew defense in America. It was only
passed by California voters in nineteen eightytwo, but it does have a history

(01:05:56):
that goes back to a British casefrom eighteen forty three. The defense will
say he had a mental illness forwhen I can tell. He sees a
few psychologists and psychiatrists. They don'tall agree, and actually only one testifies.
He doesn't testify that William Michael Denniswas insane, and says the defense
never asked him to, but hedoes say that if they had, he
would have testified that he was.He noted that William Michael Dennis had so

(01:06:18):
much rage he was a quote tickingtime bomb. He believes Denis has depressive
disorder and suffered delusional thoughts after hisson died. He blamed himself and transferred
that blame to Dorine and Charles,and came to believe that she intentionally murdered
their son, and even that hislawyer representing him at trial wanted to kill
him. His ancher made him unableto fully comprehend his actions. The doctor

(01:06:41):
also testified that he did not believethe fantasy William Dennis had of drowning Doren
and Charles was one he intended tofulfill. The prosecution says that all the
times William Michael Dennis talked with policeor psychiatrists show that he was conscious of
his guilt his actions during the crime, concealing his footprints, wearing gloves,
hiding the weapon, etc. Isevidence that he was aware he was doing

(01:07:02):
something wrong. On top of findingthe coffins and bags at his house,
the police also found a Penthouse magazineat his house from nineteen eighty two with
the article titled quote the farce ofcourtroom Psychiatry Murder by insanity. He'd also
been leaving Dorene threatening phone calls sayingI'm going to kill you, so he'd
been thinking about this for some time. The magazine thing, did it say

(01:07:26):
that they found a stack of penthousemagazines or did they just find that one.
I believe he had others. I'mnot totally sure. But it wasn't
mixed in. It was directly ontop of his stuff, and it was
from several years, Okay, priorso he'd already been he'd already been like,
he's planning his defense before he everdoes anything. That's what they believe.

(01:07:46):
Yes, the last thing the jerryhad to decide in this case was
whether or not he was responsible forthe death of the fetus. Lawn California
was amended in the nineteen seventies toinclude the word fetus. The specific statute
for murder says, quote, murderis the unlawful killing of a human being
or a fetus with malice aforethought.During this trial, it became important whether

(01:08:10):
or not he knew that she waspregnant. If he did, then he
had intent to kill the fetus.If he didn't, then it's a lesser
charge, or it was at thetime. And I'll note here that in
two thousand and two the California SupremeCourt cleared this question up when they decided
that a man who had killed hisgirlfriend was responsible for the death of her
fetus, even though he had noidea she was pregnant. William Michael Dennis's

(01:08:31):
defense says he didn't know, andI believe he maintains that to this day,
that he didn't know that Dorin waspregnant. The prosecution presents evidence that
he did, including that his stepmotherknew that Doring was pregnant as she had
still been friends with her. Theprosecution presents evidence that he did, including
his stepmother who was friends with Dorenand knew about the pregnancy. A co

(01:08:53):
worker also testified that William Michael Dennistold her that Dorin was quote pregnant again,
and then you have several people whosay he watched the house from across
the street for some time. Andthis is a part where her being very
visibly pregnant comes in. So ifhe was watching her, people say he
must he must have known. Sothose are the three basic questions the jury
had to grapple with. On Augustsixteenth, nineteen eighty eight, a jury

(01:09:16):
of ten men and two women comeback with a verdict for William Dennis.
The jury found him guilty of firstdegree murder in the death of Dorene Herbert
and guilty of second degree murder inthe death of baby Boy Herbert. The
penalty face started and the jury wasgiven the choice of the death penalty or
life without parole. The jury deliberatedfor three hours and recommended the death penalty.

(01:09:38):
Judge John Schatz sentenced William Michael Dennisto death by the gas chamber.
After his sentencing, William Michael Dennisaddressed the court. He spoke for about
thirty minutes. He blamed Dorene forhis actions and for the death of his
son. He accused her of cheatingon him while they were married, and
presented three reports of the fence aroundher pool had been faulty. He never
apologized for the murders, which Ican't imagine sitting in the courtroom as her

(01:10:01):
family and having to listen to this, right, I just think anyone having
to listen to this, it's Idon't know, it's just hard to that.
I wouldn't be able to listen tothat after that trial of everything,
and then the amount of forensic evidencethat was shown at the trial and the
details of it, and then Imean, I know it's his right,

(01:10:21):
but and then to be the husbandand daughter of the victim, and the
paper. The paper did highlight severalpeople who I guess often go to trials.
I think they were retired and theydo that, and they talked about
how this trial in particular made them, some of them physically ill having to
listen to the details. After WilliamMichael dennis Is sent him to death,

(01:10:44):
an automatic appeals process starts for him. This initial process can take many years,
and just a quick overview to understandhow it works. In California,
when you get a death sentence,the state Supreme Court automatically reviews your case.
This alone can take up to nineyears, and one of the reasons
is that you're generally assigned a publicdefender to represent you, and the idea
that a public defender is overworked isa real one. And this part,

(01:11:08):
just getting a lawyer can take threeto five years. Then your lawyer needs
time to research your case, goover what happened, maybe you'd investigate new
things. They also have to writeand file briefs, investigate other cases.
The law just a lot of workand it can take around four years to
do so. A ruling can alsotake years, and this is really the
beginning of just the beginning of theappeals process. There are state appeals,

(01:11:30):
federal appeals, and the average ittakes to exhaust all of it in California
is about twenty five years. WilliamMichael Dennis is currently on death row and
in the middle of this process hemaintains that he should have been convicted of
manslaughter. But we should note thaton top of the appeals process that he's
not currently undertaking, California has putthe death penalty on hold. We haven't
put any one to death since twothousand and six. There are several court

(01:11:55):
cases that have to be decided andprotocols that California has to create before it's
started again. And on top ofthis, nothing in California is forever specifically
laws, and that's mainly because ofthe voters. Issues with the death penalty
have been on the California ballot manytimes and in fact have been outlawed.
We outlawed at once in the seventiesbefore it came back in twenty sixteen.

(01:12:15):
There were two ballot measures about thedeath penalty, and in fact, the
Herbert family spoke out about both ofthem, which is a lot to deal
with, I think, having togo through trial, and then you're also
dealing with this constant back and forthwith the law. The first proposition was
Proposition sixty six, and it hadmany things in it, but its main
goal was to shorten the appeals processto a maximum of five years. The

(01:12:36):
Herberts were in favor of this andbelieved it was a fundamental to protecting victims'
rights, just because it's so emotionalto have to keep going over it,
to spend that twenty five years,and there's always the chance, you know,
William Michael Dennis might get out Propositionsixty six past. But there were
court cases filed against today immediately,and ultimately an appeals court said that the

(01:12:59):
part of the law stating the appealsprocess should be wrapped up in five years
would be suggestive, not directive.Ultimately, wanting to have this process wrapped
up as quickly as possible is notmore important than doing it effectively. So
the spirit of the law than istry to get it done as fast as
possible, with an eye on thefive years. But it's not a directive
of saying you have to right.And this particular proposition also didn't have any

(01:13:24):
added money or any solutions to whatis already a long process for several reasons,
one of them being not enough publicdefenders. So in that respect,
then it's saying, yeah, we'dlike this done, but we're not willing
to put any money or come upwith a solution, just fix the problem
is that it. I don't knowthat they weren't willing whoever wrote the proposition,

(01:13:45):
I just it wasn't included, soit didn't have those measures. So
my guesses things will stay the kindof length that they are for now at
least. The other proposition that yearwas Prop. Sixty two and wouldn't have
ended the death penalty in California.The Herbert family also spoke out against this
as did many families and actually WilliamMichael Dennis was also interviewed about this proposition

(01:14:06):
from death Row, as were manyother people on death row, and their
opinions about ending it were varied.He was against the death penalty and believed
his appeals will change his sentence,but at the same time thought if someone
were to give him the option ofdying at that moment, he would take
it. Prop sixty two failed,with fifty three percent voting in favor of
keeping the death penalty and forty sixpercent voting to get rid of it,

(01:14:29):
which is to say that this isprobably an issue that will come up on
the ballot again, so the Herbertswill still have to endure so much the
appeals process, and probably in thefuture against standing up for the death penalty
in California if it ever gets restartedagain. Halloween in nineteen eighty four should
have been a happy time for theHerbert family, spending the night with their
little girl and excited about welcoming anew baby boy into their family. William

(01:14:54):
Michael Dennis had other plans, andhis choices that night left many victims,
including Dorene and her little boy,Dianna, who had to suffer the attack
and live without her mother and brother, and Charles Herbert who had to live
his life without his wife and son. This case is a terrible reminder of
what a few short minutes can doto an entire family, and how our
justice system can, still, aftermany years, take a toll on victims.

(01:15:16):
I want to think Charles and Seanfor joining me for this episode.
You guys have any last words?No. This is another example of a
case that I had never heard of, had no idea about until you started
doing your research, and now it'sbecome a story that I don't think I
will forget anytime soon. It's interestingwith these cases because we do all the

(01:15:41):
research and we learn about the lawsand everything like that, and we're learning
about laws that I feel like I'mmore confused about law. It's kind of
like the whole Constitution reading of usingit as a living document. Even with
these laws that are supposed to bein place there, people are able to
kind of twist them how they wantto, and then a jury decides after

(01:16:04):
that, and it's just really hardto get a grasp on all of it.
Yeah, I think you're trying toput laws around something that's hard to
understand, and it is complicated,and sometimes when I was looking at it
deciding what's a person or if someonemeant to do something, it sometimes just
never feels like enough. And Ithink that's the interesting thing because when all

(01:16:26):
of a sudden done, it's agroup of people that are making that ultimate
judgment that come from different backgrounds,that have different areas of expertise and different
knowledge. But then they're called uponin such a serious manner to make this
judgment on the facts that are presentedthem, presented to them with no backgrounds.

(01:16:47):
You know, most of them don'thave a background in criminal law.
Most of them don't have a background, and the expertise that are being giving
to them, it's amazing. Sometimesbefore we go, we want to draw
to a cold case in santas Athat there was very little detail about.
On October twelfth, nineteen seventy four, a woman named Dorene Saint Germain was

(01:17:10):
found deceased in santas A on EleventhStreet and Horning at ten thirty pm.
Dorene was a sixteen year old runawayfrom Connecticut. She'd been living in Monterey
and was last seen the night ofthe twelfth in Pacific Grove. There is
an open cold case on her murder. We will put her picture up on
our social media and if you haveany information about the murder of Dorene st.

(01:17:31):
Germain, you can submit a tipto the santz A Police Department on
their website, which we will beposting a link on California Truecrime dot com
as well as our social media.Thank you for listening to this episode of
California Truecrime. You can always contactus on our Twitter or Instagram which is
at Cali Truecrime, check out ourFacebook page or even join our Facebook group,

(01:17:55):
and if you would like to pleaseleave us a review, we would
like to thank our quality control engineer, Melanie Duncan. This was recorded and
produced at Chateau Walnut. If youenjoyed this episode, be sure to check

(01:18:38):
out California True Crime wherever you listento podcasts. Their link will be down
in the description box as well.If you want to reach out to me
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if you just want to say hi, you can always reach me at Rogue
Darkness pod at gmail dot com,or over on my socials, Instagram,

(01:18:59):
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(01:19:24):
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that reality truly is more terrifying thanfiction. Until next time,

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Feed Takeover ft. California True Crime - The San Jose Halloween Murders

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