January 26, 2023 • 42 mins
In this episode Melissa and Justin interview Blake Bristow from Blue Streak K9 and they discuss the K9 reports related to Judy's case. Blake is an expert in this field. He has a Bachelor Degree in Criminology and has also been a police officer since 2003. He has been training and handling dogs for search and rescue, cadavers, drugs, and bombs since 2003. Blake is also an Arkansas State K9 certifying official. He's one of the founders of BlueStreak K9, which trains dogs for home protection, law enforcement, and search and rescue.
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(00:01):
Here on the safe Haven Podcast.Any names mentioned should not be considered as
suspects unless officially stated as such bylaw enforcement. Any opinions during interviews on
this podcast or the opinions of theinterviewee and don't reflect the opinions of the
safe Haven Podcast or the AMU ColdCase Team. Everyone is innocent until proven
(00:21):
guilty in a court of law.Welcome to this episode of safe Haven.
I am your host, Justin.I am joined with Melissa, and we
do have a special guest on withus tonight. Melissa, how are you
doing. I'm well. When youand I have been together like all day,
it's a good day for you,isn't it. Yeah. We had
a zoom call at the Prosecutor's Officeinvestigator earlier which was really productive and really
(00:45):
really good. Looking forward to goingback to Parkersburg here in the next couple
of weeks. Unfortunately I will notbe able to make the event. I
have a prior obligation, but Iwill be there Sunday, Monday, and
part of Tuesday. Yeah. Sodo you want to speak in a which
do you want to update us onthat? Yeah? Of course. So
(01:06):
for all of our listeners who arepart of our Facebook group and who listen
to the podcast. We will beback in Parkersburg in about two weeks,
so we'll be there February. I'llbe there February second through the seventh.
The rest of the team is comingin and on February fourth, we are
having an event at North End Tavern. So we're having a meet and greet
(01:26):
with the safe Haven team, membersof the Petty family, and we're also
doing raffle item super exciting. I'veposted some items that we have and we
are excited to meet all of thesafe Haven crew and get to know more
people out there and raise more money. So everything of the raffle that we
get, we will be donating backinto the reward fund for GB Petty to
(01:49):
help us lead to an arrest.Yeah. Hopefully. I apologize to the
listeners. I won't be able tobe there, but like I said,
I have a prior obligation, Soif you end up wanting to meet up
again on Sunday or Monday or somethinglike that, I'm sure we can arrange
that as well. Yeah. Prettylow key in the group and don't say
much, so I highly doubt anybodywants to talk to me. I don't
(02:14):
think so. So I'm super excitedabout today's episode now I posted it in
the Facebook group. But we dohave a special guest on. We have
Blake. I'm looking at I sawhim like showing everyone this is Blake,
but you can't see him. Blakecomes to us. He's a friend of
Allen, so everyone knows Allen whois our awesome fire effort. He recommended
(02:35):
Blake to come on and talk tous. So, we recently received the
canine reports on Judy's case, andone of the questions that we've had is
about these dogs and what the caninereports actually mean or saying. I'm not
very knowledgeable on canine search and rescueand how it works. So I want
to welcome Blake to to our show. Hey Blake, Hello, Hi,
(02:58):
Do you want to take a minuteto introduce yourself and how the listeners a
little bit about your background? Sure? My name Late. I come out
of Arkansas. I have a bachelor'sdegree in criminology. Became a police officer
here in n Saw in two thousandand three. Carn I heard a search
and rescue dog. In two thousandfive, we began training and deploying with
(03:19):
Bloodhells for Maundrelling. Through that,we realized that we needed other types of
dogs in the search and recouvery world. So in two thousand and eight,
I trained my dead dog Roxy.She's no longer with us, but successful
learned a lot from her. Throughmy work as a police officer in Drug
Task Force Street Comes, I decidedto venture into the police dog training world
(03:46):
since I was already doing detection work. Two thousand eleven, I attended a
professional school for police dog trainers andbegan Blue Street K nine. So from
her, I started training police dogs. I sell police dogs all over the
US, train train hundreds and hundredsof handlers, been invited to teach seminars
throughout the US. So, Imean, it's funny my experience. I
(04:09):
was also a canine handler from apolice department. Lots of deployments and seize
drugs and found bad guys. Andyou know, I just learned a lot.
I have a lot of experience withdifferent fast training world, whether it
be pale obedience or police dogs,drugs, search and recovery, you know,
tracking, felling, could ever dogs, all sports of experience and training.
(04:31):
Yeah, wow, I'm not familiarwith all of these differings and you
kind of have already given me alesson when we were talking on the phone
about like what kind of dogs andcertificates and is it this kind of dog
and this kind of doct Like Ihad no idea, So I really would
like to, you know, kindof break down some basic questions for our
listeners and then we can get morespecific into Judy's case. So you tell
(04:54):
us a little bit about how longdoes it take to train a dog to
become certified in like search and rescueon average? So a lot of that
kind of depends on the dog really, I mean, because for dogs that
I trained for police work, I'mbuying you know, the top of the
line dogs with the best drives,and it's amazing how quick I can teach
(05:15):
those dogs to find drugs and reliably. I mean it's very quick. But
for searching recovery dog, depending onwhat discipline, you know, it takes
a while. You know. Iwould just, for example, for a
conover dog, I would hope bydeploying less than two months of initial training
on the dog, and that thatis a dog with top level drives that
understands training game and the deployment gameis far hunt and everything goes. But
(05:41):
you've got to teach these dof theodor. You got to teach them how
to hunt for it, what toowhen they locate it, so you can
read the dog and everything, soyou know, on the on the end
of it, I'm saying, youknow, twelve weeks, that's that's just
what thenever dog trunk dogs is alot more. It's a lot more into
That's the hardest fast of train thatI found. And our train dogs to
find about everything and buy people andeverything else, and tracking and training takes
(06:04):
the longest. What does it meanwhen you say it's a good trait?
Does that what you said? Whatdoes that mean? You know people think
of a German hpherd, they automaticallythink of a police dog. I mean
that's not the case. We've weuse Americans have bred out all those quas
because we want to have the lookof a police dog. It's scary and
fierce and all this stuff. Butmost people deal with the kind of what
(06:26):
we call drive. Some people thinktiredness. Actually that drive for work,
always want them to hunt, alwaysusing their nose, that drive to chase
the ball, extreme amounts of food, drive, whatever it is. These
these dogs don't typically make good pets. We try to breed them out,
like Malon Walls are a very populardog now. I recommend them as pet
for the general public, you know, not unless you're involved in something like
(06:48):
search and rescue or sport like protectionsports, or you're just a super active
person. So those are the dogsthat that train quickly. And what I
found in the such and rescue world, it's a volunteer thing. I never
got haid a dime for what Idid in such curry world. It is
(07:08):
a volunteer service that my father andI did to help people. That was
our goal or intent was to justhelp Emily's need. Um, so there
is don't mean that. And soa lot of times you get some pan
out their own pocket and they don'tunderstand. I still dogs that are not
stand that they should even be trainedfor people with good intentions that don't they
(07:32):
have money to start it. Youknow, they end up with dog from
the pound or I got I hada German Shepherd, but that's exactly what
you got that doesn't necessarily transition.The bloodhounds are the hardest dogs. Now,
blood hounds they've been bread to passlike on heat all and that's just
not the type of dog we're lookingfor, So the dog quality is a
(07:55):
one the most important factor in thetraining is having a quality dog. What
is it mean to get a dogcertified in search and rescue? They would
have to So the certification self isbasically to show reliability that the dog reliably
finds. For example, cadaver.You know there's gonna be different situations such
as there's land can ever, youhave different certifications called wilderness, you have
(08:18):
water certifications, you have different levels. Basically, the dog is tested in
different environments. Land, cadaver dog, they're going to be tested in the
house. They're going to be testedand are probably around cars, in the
woods, in a field. They'regoing to be tested a couple of different
areas to see if they can locatewhat they've been trained to do, and
also to pasts and different things likethat. And it's also it's a team
(08:41):
certification, so we're also testing thehangler to see if they can recognize what
their dog is doing if the dogis in odor and has located in different
things. Certifications aren't meant to behard, They're not subjective. They shouldn't
be subjective. They're meant to beobjective. So sometimes just because dog has
pass certification certified a national and staterecognize certifire for prees dogs. I have
(09:05):
passed dog that I personally wouldn't selland that I like, this dog's not
very good, but they meet anobjective standard. They met it in the
timeframe and they found the odors andthe handler called it. So it's objective.
And I'm still saying, like manetdog sucks. But just because it't
certified doesn't mean it's a great dog. Just means that met a minimal standard.
(09:26):
Okay, that's really helpful. Thankfor for explaining that, because one
of the things in Judy's case we'lltalk about it is these dogs were certified
and I will share that with youbecause you're asking about that, but that's
really important to know who they werecertified for. Can you tell us,
like what the difference is between searchand rescue dog and dog in regards to
(09:48):
certification, Like how well I don'ttypically use the word, you know,
the certain rescue for me is abroad term curs pretty well all the dogs
that do some type of search forrecovery rescue. So for me, certain
rescue, trailing dog taking dogs,caver dogs are sent all your things like
that when I kept asking questions aboutthe different disciplines. So basically, okay,
(10:09):
they're surf so they have certain rescuecertification is a certification for and so
you answered earlier like it was forcadaver and trailing, So that's what the
certifications are for. They've been testedit. So it's it's just a different
disciplines like such as a police dogs. People can understand that you have drug
dogs and bomb dogs. Oh yougot to your dogs a police came one,
(10:33):
Yes, Okay, what does hewhat is he trained to do?
He either finds bomb or he findsdrugs. So that was kind of what
we're getting through when that term searchand rescue would be like he saying,
oh he's a police dog, Well, what all does he do? If
they're searching rescue dogs? How doyou qualify someone for searching recues? They
can locate people or how so they'regonna typically show records, you know as
(10:56):
far as like hey, the dog'sfriend just got to meet the minimal stand
they're set forth in those organizations,and like a thrown police have shows a
background check. The dog has topass a KC Canine Good Citizen Test,
means the dog son bite everybody whenit's around those scenes stuff like that.
There's some general requirements there and thenyou know, once they have all that
(11:18):
stuff, then they can take theirtest. So you're saying, though I
think we talked about this, youusually aren't the dog isn't both search and
risk? Who are they can be? Like my cadaver dog, Roxy could
track. I didn't ever use herfor that because I had a team of
bloodhounds, but I trained they're justlike you know the police dogs and drugs.
(11:39):
They try do apprehension work all that, so they can be trained in
multiple fasts. My thing is like, if you have a true, real
good cadaver dog, I mean itcan definitely be trained a track, But
the more you divide a dog,I feel like it hurts the other stuff.
They can absolutely do it and doit well. But you know that's
a jack of all trade or nonesituation. So it's one of those things
(12:01):
where you could have dog do allof these different you know, certificates.
But the more you train and finesplit it, there's more chance for maybe
confusion or not getting to be anexpert in a certain field. Possibly,
you know, like I said,may you come back quality dog like my
you could have a dog is Imean, he is an amazing dog.
He'd absolutely be a stellar tracking though, but I'm going to use him for
(12:22):
that he is. He's gonna betrained in a single discipline just because of
the in the place where we're not. We train them with different areas and
then they do well at all ofit. So I'm not saying it can't
be and they can't be good atit all. They definitely can't be.
When we look at the case forJudy, we kind of look at her
case. We have report, butit's very vague, it's not very helpful,
(12:45):
does not tell us a lot.And unfortunately, you know, the
handler who wrote these reports is notreally is not wanting to come and talk
to us. So all we haveis her reports do not tell a whole
lot. And this is for reportthat I shared with you. She was
there on February eighth, so twodays after twelve three count Sex that Judy
(13:07):
disappeared, and we have her withtwo dogs. So there were two different
people up there. There was Wandaand Shirley who were the docmblers. One
of the questions that I have tobased on this report is one of the
dogs crickets. We don't know whatkind of dogs or I found out they
were laughs, I would have theywere definitely not bloodhounds. If they're doing
(13:31):
if they were just traveling, I'mnot safe. It's the blood hand.
If they circled on here the groundand cannaver type of search. She had
been here, that cricket, whichis one of the dogs, was able
to try duty sent from the barndown the driveway twout thirty one. So
for our listeners, as you know, we know that her property. The
(13:56):
question was when Chris scott Wright studydropped her off, is that really what
happened? Didn't she walk out thatright away? Did she not? We
now have the can report that saysthat create able to form the bar down
to the drug all the way throughoutthirty one. So my question to you,
because how long does a typical sendfor a person stay in the ear
(14:18):
in the ground. If it's threedays later, is the doge able to
pick that up if the conditions rightolder cancer ground for a few days,
but the conditions are going to beperfect. I had been behind bloodhounds a
lot, but no, if youreally look back at it and train you're
doing. You try to say,do a couple of pale track tandler involvement
like manipulation as far as like won'tyou you know that where they win or
(14:41):
you will that are property of barnssomething like it. You go take that
in consideration too. And I haveto speak a lot from the police aspect.
Our success right in police tracking peopleis extremely low. It's not because
our doctor, my ACS dogs arephenomenal tracking dogs. We find very few
people because they get gone or somebodypicks them up, something like that.
(15:05):
Especially with the cell phone egge.You know it's hard to find them.
But our success rates are higher chancesto find somebody. But you know,
you start getting out there after twentythirty minutes, your chance to find somebody
your twenty percent or blow. Probablybecause the odor and traffic will get an
inspiration on this particular deal. Okay, there are three days later, the
fire trucks is in there. Peoplebeen looking for all these different odors,
(15:26):
the oder and disturbed, they upand down the Strive way. I believe
that in the report it sets upabout a storm, not that the rain
will wash away this scent dispersing.So you've got all these different factors that
dispersing the scent everywhere. Majority ofyour well recognized trainers these days in the
police world are going to be likeno, the dal Tracks or Joe,
(15:48):
They're not able to look at Thescent can still be there in certain areas,
like let's say there's an area moistureundisturbed that they walk past. You
know, the moisture can hold thatsent three words probably if she walked up
that round way. What about thefireman? How many farreming went up there?
Any fire rush trucks back and forth, trips? I mean, dogs
can sent discriminate, absolutely, butit's really hard in those situations. Okay,
(16:15):
so they had a scent item ofduties, which is what they used
for this dog. And this againis three days later. How liable you
say this is your experience? Letme say this. I think it's irresponse
to tell the family that she hitand she was here and we don't know
when is exactly what the report said? Was it three days ago? Was
(16:37):
it five days ago? I mean, what do you mean that, I
guess the only evidence that we haven'theard he was there. I don't know
how you can sent there and saythat she was here and I know they're
gonna What the response to that fromthe handler is is well, I know
my dog. You know you shouldknow your through training what a handler means
by they got to hit. WhatI'm thinking is okay, ys an article,
(17:00):
you cast your trailing dog out onthe line, and then the dog
gives what we call a love behavior. So another words, dog through what
you think and what you see trainingdog as ating, breathing, that's what
we're looking for. First a directionchange, that's what all the alert entails.
And then you know, I numberof the tracks when I'm tracking,
like number one is that alert tothe track, and there's different their dogs
(17:22):
honny on a certain area, andthen number two the dogs driving is the
track is trying to pull you downthe trail. Okay, And to me
that is what we would consider ahit on a track. But was he
on the right track? You know? Sometimes the police were we don't find
the guy, but we find themask they wore, the gloves they were
on the robbery We tracking like,yeah, we were on because we found
(17:45):
if it's here's the glove. Wegot him on video where these clubs we
got DNA out of the gloves andmany times I get called this policehandlers talking.
I think I was on, butI don't know, but he definitely
was tracking. I think we wereon. We tracked this area to road
and he lost it. So that'sour thoughts as handlers. We want our
dogs to be right. So theyget on some trapped for ways, maybe
(18:06):
get plenty evidence. They're they're saying, like I think it wasn't you don't
know. You got to kind ofbe objected by it. You don't know
you found the dancer trapped to thatcellar, Like no, weed, Okay,
that's a little and that's not whathappened. It doesn't look like from
the report that the dogs started atthe barn, which isn't near which isn't
next to the house of the cellar. It's over there, um, so
(18:30):
possible. You know, she didgo up the joyway and went to the
barn, But why is there nothingher by the cellar because she obviously was
over there the other travels. Okay, so we're talking, like I said,
there was there was some wind andstuff like that. There was wind
and then there was a light dustingthe snow too that night, but the
whale was very high. The lotdusting the snow could have helped preserved the
(18:51):
well. Actually, you know,when you walk, you think if you
walk into the smoke, bomb toyour head and walking around and there's a
breeze, think about where the odors. You know. So it's hard to
say that questions it's so bad.And I talked to a lady there today
from Wood County who is part ofthe volunteer organization, the Wood County Surgeon
(19:12):
Rescue. You know, I said, hey, you know the handlers and
talking to us, you you know, have anything on these dogs, the
certification? Is there anything that youknow about these dogs? You know?
Her report fact was from people whoworked with the handler at that time.
They said that she had a phenomenaldog, that she was the best of
the best, which is good tohear. But you know, there is
(19:34):
question still about why was the dognot picking up other sense and going down
it's only going down the trail andthen it seemed to stop, you know,
So I'm not quite sure about howthat plays into anything. So what
we probably should call it is anon productive Basically, what she's saying.
We use the term blar place alot. It's it's a non productive response.
(19:59):
So it's to say there's evidence wisesaying except her word. I have
been many places where her handlers,you know, even police handler, because
they want to be right, theydon't want to be wrong, and then
they they'll say things like it washere. I think, you know,
what do you know when we're dealingwith this kind of stuff, thinking with
this way, we'll go check thatlead out. If it produces so great,
(20:21):
If not, well, hey wetry. You know. My question
was I had a ever dog.Why did it caaver dog not alert to
a turned dead body? It wasthat close to I mean dogs or no
task past the odor. But Iwould think being around that building, the
dog would have to own a sixbasically a small box. And that was
(20:41):
what I too. But you justsaid something. I had a question.
What does it mean when you weretalking about the dog was not giving off
any alert or what do you meanby that? I mean, sometimes there's
no indication that the dog was alerting. I'm saying it's an it come up
with another shape. He says itwas on trail. There's there's nothing there.
(21:03):
It's really a tough one. Morequarterback the handler to dog. I
don't know, it's judging off thereport things like that the dogs WoT any
help in this particular case. There'sthere's nothing really to go off of there,
but that great. I mean,that's the point. Okay, you
did better notes right of saying howyou I mean you told the family got
(21:26):
a sent from Judy item and said, oh, you told me, she
tracked it down. But then that'sall we know. And so I think
it right to talk about that becausethere's no other signs that show that the
dog was picking up on her son. And you make a good point about
the wind too, because that's whatI think carried over to the hops from
the seller based on our conversation withAlan, like I said, it's I'll
(21:48):
try to throw them a bone here. Sometimes dogs alert vehicles and we don't
find any drugs. We do streetside interviews and they're typically they're like,
no, we smoked. Some werecars more than he feels drugs. So
they basically tell us, yes,there were drugs in my car, and
dogs alert to the other if thatdead body was in there, he took
it out daily, or you comeback with the dog, that odor is
(22:10):
probably still going to be there,and the dog can indicate because they alert
to the actual oder um, theactual body layer, it's the odor of
that body. You know, thoseare sometimes non productive alert and sometimes he's
as indicating people lie to it.We don't find the evidence of the drus
were there, and the person's kindof we know they're probably lying, just
because we've done this a long time. Like I know they're lying. I
know that you drugged, and butat the end of the day, when
(22:33):
you log that, it's like it'san unproductive alert. It ends up being
an unknown. That's kind what we'redealing with. Here's just unknown. I
don't want to say, no,they weren't there, they're wrong. I
don't know if they were wrong orright. The mistake that certain rescue handlers
make speaking of the family, like, yeah, ask questions prior, and
you may have if you post questionsall up to maybe make sense of what
you're dogton, I never went tothe family. I think I think he's
(22:56):
here. I think he's I mighttell the sheriff or the law of force.
It's not my place to go talkto the family, right, And
that's you know, unfortunate that gearsit towards something else. Right, And
so one of the things I wantto talk about is one of the dogs
showed interested in the area in frontof the fireplace. Again, the whole
house was burnt down, but there'sa fireplace. And then the other dog
(23:17):
supposely worked the area hard but didn'twant to stay. We kind of talked
about this a little bit, butwhat does it mean, like show interest
versus like hitting? Is each dogseparate based on their line? First interest
in hitting was that every every dogs, you know, they all said like
me in dog trainer. It maylook a little different each dog, but
(23:40):
they primarily all the same showing interest. I've heard that term many times.
I have even used that term wellout on a cadaver deployment. You know,
looking back, you learned, likeI said, you learn a lot
from past deployments, and you mesurein that particular field or whatever field you're
in, you learn Maybe said thatbecause like if I'm want doing looking for
(24:03):
somebody's drowned. There's been times formy dog like showed a ton of interest
to the side of the boat,but she never gave medication. It was
nothing that I would call because yougotta think I'm not gonna put a diver's
life at charity. I said,I got some interest right here. Now,
there has been tons where I've beenover and my dogs go hard in
one spot and the divers were goingto die no matter what I said,
(24:26):
listen, if you're gonna die,they start here first, you know what
I mean. And just like probablygot a lot of share compared to everything
else, you're gonna dive, youknow, try here first, maybe more
productive. That's kind of probably whatthey man. Their dog was showing different
behavior in that area. Dogs showdifferent behavior in a lot of circumstances.
Most resembled well she has seen intraining. While working, she was at
(24:51):
once really directed basically interest with beingthe dog was drinking it sniff in a
particular area. And we had moreclarity on this, you know, because
in regards to her repulse, becauseyou know, one of the things that
have a question is the dogs kindof are joining, if you will,
interest in the cellar. But itwas too hot for them to go down
in, but they wanted to.But even if these remains are like cremated,
(25:18):
you know, there wasn't hardly anythinglife. One of the things that
we thought was that dogs can't pickup after a certain point of remains that
it's cremated. Is that true.No, there's still bones and stuff there.
DNA may be gone type situations,but there's still own fragments and different
things left. At that point,there's still human odor. You can't understand,
(25:40):
We as humans have about ten millionold factory receptors in our noses.
Dogs have anywhere for two hundred orthree hundred million old factory recenters. So
that is why we use dogs.We don't you know, I don't think
that we know just how good animalsnoses are. But I've seen my dog
do some amazing stuff as far.I can literally go high tooth one human
(26:03):
tooth in my yard and he willfind it. Get the wind blows,
he's down when you'll see give thealert behavior, and then he'll go find
it. Train final response which isun either a down or sitting sphere.
Wow. So even though her bodywas cremated to the you know, her
remains where there's hardly anything left,you know besides her, they should have
(26:23):
still been able to pick up andhit on that if they would have her
dogs. Should you know? Iemphasized the word should you because let's say,
maybe there's a lot you gotta thinksthe dog knowses here, But the
web that we train. You know, we work on thresholds, so I
trained to source as much as hospital. So in other words, I want
my dog to get as close aspossible to finding what he is looking for.
(26:48):
You know, if there's who I'mtraining, drugs or bombs or whatever,
if the dog can get two inchesfrom it and get two inches from
it. But if you can onlyget as close at team to team foot
from, you'll have to indicate.So that's where it's it. Yeah,
they were interests in the stellar wantingto go down in there, but I
don't think they actually gave an alertsign it's from. That's how hirating it
(27:11):
would agree. I agree pulled shepulled a sad face out there that they
pulled the dogs away, And Iunderstand why they did that because then they're
saying I would have to find becauselet's be real, as bad as what
is her family stuff, You've workedhard to brain a dog to do a
certain job. If it's there,you want to find it, you know,
no matter if it's a dead body, you miss a kid, you
(27:33):
know, trying a criminal. It'slike you want that fine, That's what
it's like. Yes, it's paidoff. You know, I understand the
little sad face of the report isthey pulled their dog off of okay,
so it was everything leading to herremains there the dog was growing interesting possible
that could have that could have heardtalking and saying you know, who knows
what they would say now, ButI understand the reports writing interest so they
(27:56):
could go back like, well,gave me changes. But I can pretty
well remember most amount of clements incadaver, you know, and how my
dog acted in certain places and didn'tact different things like that. So one
of the other thans I have is, and you've mentioned this too, what
does like work area? Harman?Was just like the dogs are focused on
(28:18):
that area because in the report itsays that cricket work there was behind the
house and cellar and wanted to goin the cellar. But does this mean
that cricket picked up Judy sent likein the woods behind the house, because
that's one of the things we're consideringis it's come to the back way.
What does like work a hard mean? I have to assume what it means
to me because it say it weren'tvery hard. So the dog is very
(28:44):
directed and sniffing. In one pictulararea so behind the cellar, like the
dog just keeps working and doesn't wantto look the area or something like that.
Let's say that maybe the wind wasblowing towards the woods, how farward
was relatively close, you know,at beyond that it worked from the woods
to the cellar. Because so there'sa we call it a sitcome you know,
(29:06):
you're the point origin of the scent, and then the winds blowing away
that just wider and wider and wider. You know, the sitcoone huge and
the dogs like I actually worked ona cast with a cadaver dog last year.
I wasn't it wasn't my dog,somebody. I was just as their
flanker. We did not want togo on this person's backyard. We were
received basically walking through properties missing personwe thought probably suicidal. We got about
(29:32):
one hundred at the yards from wherethe body was found in a treehouse about
twelve foot up that dog. Whenwe worked, we worked for probably four
hours total all over the plate.And that particularly the dogs giving that interest
something that they're probably referring to,like I'm like this, this looks like
the dogs like, okay, where'sthis at? And we didn't let the
(29:52):
dog go any Forhether's big nice houseand this ladies associated well a few hours
later of officers thought, huh,let me go check that injure enough she
was in there and kill herself andwith very gory scene with all the blood
and everything. The dog probably didsmell that from one hundred and fifty parts
away. But you kind of seewhat I'm saying, like the dog I'll
(30:14):
never know, Like I said,that handler pulled out and we just won't
look that really the case if weshould have let the dog go. Telling
you that story, Kenny, letyou know what the thought process probably is
in the right And that's exactly becauseit leads us to so many different questions,
like you're open and narrow it down, and we really can't right now
with the reports that we had,you know, because one of the questions,
(30:36):
like I mentioned, is you know, now we have a dog walking,
you know, saying that she walkedup the driveway, then we have
a dog showing working hard in theback area. But is it all just
kind of the same stem her beingthere in the wind and the fire that
it is kind of in these differentplaces and it doesn't mean that came in
from the back at all. Myprofessional opinion, the trailing dog stuff is
(31:00):
point. There's too much, toomuch traffic up there. They had storms,
snow, whatever else when and justall the traffic and she's there three
days later that the trailing in theIncescy. Yeah, except she she thinks
through training. The trailing dog isa moot point. In my opinion,
my interests would be in the cadaverdog, because that's the one at that
(31:21):
point, because it's no longer trailingbase would be daver dog stuff, you
know. And they didn't find anyevidence in anywhere that they trailed, so
at that point you can't put anystock into the trailing might the dog being
interested behind cellar in the woods goingtowards each other. I put a little
stock in that because very well saidthat women on a drag and the odor
(31:42):
was blowing round there there, andthe dog was in cadaver mode. I
guess I'm just interested in what dogswitch like. If Cricket's the one who
worked the trail, and and thatis Crecket the cadiver dog, or you
know, or in it you saidthat one of them was certified both trailing
and coldever dual purpose stuff. Yeah, but I don't know which one or
(32:05):
if they both were. It's hardto say. I was. I kind
of like it was Cricket because that'sthe dog's name that was mentioned so many
times, so it may have beenthat. And that's another thing too,
you got you gotta look at thebreed of dog. I think you said
that they were labs. Labs makegreat track and trailing dogs, but the
bloodhound is second to none when itcomes to trailing dogs, to my personal
opinion, because I've trained behind them. I trained tons of different breeds for
(32:30):
tracking and trailing. It is thebest that, don't get wrong, shepherds
and pointers and on their phenomenal trackingdogs. But I don't know how you
know what the lab was like,I thought, well, even looking at
it now, Blake, I'm likereading it again, and it says that
Cricket was the one who worked thearea hard but didn't want to stay in
front of the fire. But thenCricket worked the winds behind house and the
(32:52):
cellar and wanted to go into thecellar. And Cricket was the one who
did the trail. It was thedog for the deployment. Okay, just
curious, all right, So,like you said, in your opinion.
I mean, what are some ofyour like suggestions or what is there anything
else we can do or get fromthese reports? Oh, I did poably
(33:14):
believe the dogs in this situation anda dog guy, But the dog is
not all the answer and the dogswill always provide just based off the reports.
You know, I don't know muchabout like the actual case and everything
based off the actual can report,there is not any useful information into solving
the crime with these particular dogs.I think you can put a lot of
(33:37):
stalk into what they said about tellingshe was here, don't you know him
in a direction? I mean Idon't know. Yeah, no, fair
enough. This is what we wanthere is just you're I mean, you're
an expert in this. You've beendoing this, you Traine, you know,
and it's just you know, lookingat everyone's opinion and weighing in on
this. And that's what the bestskating is. It's more of a crowdsource
(34:00):
investigation. So it's you know,it's not what you know, it's what
you can prove, right, It'snot what you know, what you can
prove. That's what separates us inthe police world versus somebody that's not in
our world. We know, Iknow, I worked in drug tests for
a lot of years, investigations.I knew a lot of people that were
(34:20):
selling dope. But what I couldprove in a court of law? What
can I prove to get this personallocked up? It's not what you know?
I mean, what you know?Can you in the right direction?
But unfortunately, based off case here, there's nothing to lead us anywhere,
no evidence, Like didn't try toissue like there was a footprint. They
said that non productive. You know, that would have been the only thing,
like, oh they kind of footprint. Now the dog didn't give us
(34:42):
nothing on it. So basically justnon productive is the canine deployment was?
You know, And I'm glad youmuch about the footpart. And I didn't
think about that. She didn't reportthat the dog picked up the footman.
Basically that footprint what associated with anythingher dog said? So you gotta go
with it, you know, actuallylong ago, justin I know, I
asked all the questions because I'm likeso and bad, I'm like what,
(35:04):
I don't understand any of this?Do you have any questions for Blake?
Blake was answering a lot of myconcerns as he was answering your questions.
Mine just mainly centered around the reliability, the accuracy percentage, and Blake answered
all those definitely satisfied my questions.So this was rful Blake, because I
(35:25):
think for us on the team,you know, we constantly go round and
round around about the driveway and thenseeing us report, you know, you're
like, oh, what does thismean? And I think absolutely right is
I think we have to toss itdeside. It doesn't really tell us anything.
You're going down to Betty, Andwith that particular situation, I hate
it because we have been very helpfulin the past, you know, with
(35:47):
all handlers, even in the searchand recovery world, but this particular one
to just you being always going tobe able. I think that's situation here
with that and you know, andI can take from all of course rest
with my involvement. I've showed up. I've been on BIX. My Cada
is actually on the NBC Today Showon a case that rode out there and
(36:08):
NBC Today Show is there and here'sroxy you know, you know, I'm
saying that she's on national TV.But you know, the first recovery worlds
I like to say a bad name. But there's a lot of them that
come out of the woodworks, saythey have these dogs and they show up
(36:28):
with these fat house pets that haveno drive. And you gotta understand police,
even if they're canine handlers, theysee our dogs and how they are
their drives everything. He says,well he's walking around this and this,
and you're like whatever. And whenI showed up on these big scenes,
you know, there's a big bloodhere. There was ten eleven people that
(36:50):
died in it, and I showup. It's across the state based off
the way my dog pareils that came. Like, you're coming with the hot
area where we haven't and we feellike there's probably going to be bodies.
You know, I know you getmad, but I'm like, I'm one
of them. I'm a police officer, and they did when I show up.
A lot of times I would bein front of some of them that
get in what we call the hotareas. You know, like this is
(37:14):
a proper productive area. Some ofthese people just don't have the necessary training
that they need and stuff. Andthere's so many good organizations out there.
I've worked with some phenomenal people.That's all they do. They volunteer,
and but they do it right.They have right dogs, the right training,
the right support system, and that'svery important. And in this group
they sound like they probably, especiallysince they were certified in different things,
(37:37):
they were probably putting in the timeand the training. It's just unfortunately in
this case it was no help andthe reports weren't hold though. And that's
the thing. It was all inher head and she hadn't write it down
or document it could have gave usmore. Right, that's down on camera
anymore. It didn't happen, youknow, right, all the same in
(37:58):
healthcare. I'm in healthcare. Didn'tdo it, didn't charted, it didn't
happen, right, So anyways,awesome, Well you've been amazing and if
it's okay, if we have anotherquestion, we can reach out to you.
Are you if you're in our icebookgroup, you know, if anyone
has any questions after the episode,please I know I can always reach out
to Lake and ask them and getback to you. This is really again,
(38:19):
thank you so much, another experton the duty, honey Kase.
And you know, we'll just keepgoing forward and see what we can't do.
So thank you so much. Weappreciate it. Blake, thanks a
lot for taking the time. Absolutelyso thank you so much. Again,
another episode of Saving all Right,Good Deal.
Here on the safe Haven Podcast.Any names mentioned should not be considered as
suspects unless officially stated as such bylaw enforcement. Any opinions during interviews on
this podcast or the opinions of theinterviewee and don't reflect the opinions of the
safe Haven Podcast or the AMU ColdCase Team. Everyone is innocent until proven
(00:21):
guilty in a court of law.Welcome to this episode of safe Haven.
I am your host, Justin.I am joined with Melissa, and we
do have a special guest on withus tonight. Melissa, how are you
doing. I'm well. When youand I have been together like all day,
it's a good day for you,isn't it. Yeah. We had
a zoom call at the Prosecutor's Officeinvestigator earlier which was really productive and really
(00:45):
really good. Looking forward to goingback to Parkersburg here in the next couple
of weeks. Unfortunately I will notbe able to make the event. I
have a prior obligation, but Iwill be there Sunday, Monday, and
part of Tuesday. Yeah. Sodo you want to speak in a which
do you want to update us onthat? Yeah? Of course. So
(01:06):
for all of our listeners who arepart of our Facebook group and who listen
to the podcast. We will beback in Parkersburg in about two weeks,
so we'll be there February. I'llbe there February second through the seventh.
The rest of the team is comingin and on February fourth, we are
having an event at North End Tavern. So we're having a meet and greet
(01:26):
with the safe Haven team, membersof the Petty family, and we're also
doing raffle item super exciting. I'veposted some items that we have and we
are excited to meet all of thesafe Haven crew and get to know more
people out there and raise more money. So everything of the raffle that we
get, we will be donating backinto the reward fund for GB Petty to
(01:49):
help us lead to an arrest.Yeah. Hopefully. I apologize to the
listeners. I won't be able tobe there, but like I said,
I have a prior obligation, Soif you end up wanting to meet up
again on Sunday or Monday or somethinglike that, I'm sure we can arrange
that as well. Yeah. Prettylow key in the group and don't say
much, so I highly doubt anybodywants to talk to me. I don't
(02:14):
think so. So I'm super excitedabout today's episode now I posted it in
the Facebook group. But we dohave a special guest on. We have
Blake. I'm looking at I sawhim like showing everyone this is Blake,
but you can't see him. Blakecomes to us. He's a friend of
Allen, so everyone knows Allen whois our awesome fire effort. He recommended
(02:35):
Blake to come on and talk tous. So, we recently received the
canine reports on Judy's case, andone of the questions that we've had is
about these dogs and what the caninereports actually mean or saying. I'm not
very knowledgeable on canine search and rescueand how it works. So I want
to welcome Blake to to our show. Hey Blake, Hello, Hi,
(02:58):
Do you want to take a minuteto introduce yourself and how the listeners a
little bit about your background? Sure? My name Late. I come out
of Arkansas. I have a bachelor'sdegree in criminology. Became a police officer
here in n Saw in two thousandand three. Carn I heard a search
and rescue dog. In two thousandfive, we began training and deploying with
(03:19):
Bloodhells for Maundrelling. Through that,we realized that we needed other types of
dogs in the search and recouvery world. So in two thousand and eight,
I trained my dead dog Roxy.She's no longer with us, but successful
learned a lot from her. Throughmy work as a police officer in Drug
Task Force Street Comes, I decidedto venture into the police dog training world
(03:46):
since I was already doing detection work. Two thousand eleven, I attended a
professional school for police dog trainers andbegan Blue Street K nine. So from
her, I started training police dogs. I sell police dogs all over the
US, train train hundreds and hundredsof handlers, been invited to teach seminars
throughout the US. So, Imean, it's funny my experience. I
(04:09):
was also a canine handler from apolice department. Lots of deployments and seize
drugs and found bad guys. Andyou know, I just learned a lot.
I have a lot of experience withdifferent fast training world, whether it
be pale obedience or police dogs,drugs, search and recovery, you know,
tracking, felling, could ever dogs, all sports of experience and training.
(04:31):
Yeah, wow, I'm not familiarwith all of these differings and you
kind of have already given me alesson when we were talking on the phone
about like what kind of dogs andcertificates and is it this kind of dog
and this kind of doct Like Ihad no idea, So I really would
like to, you know, kindof break down some basic questions for our
listeners and then we can get morespecific into Judy's case. So you tell
(04:54):
us a little bit about how longdoes it take to train a dog to
become certified in like search and rescueon average? So a lot of that
kind of depends on the dog really, I mean, because for dogs that
I trained for police work, I'mbuying you know, the top of the
line dogs with the best drives,and it's amazing how quick I can teach
(05:15):
those dogs to find drugs and reliably. I mean it's very quick. But
for searching recovery dog, depending onwhat discipline, you know, it takes
a while. You know. Iwould just, for example, for a
conover dog, I would hope bydeploying less than two months of initial training
on the dog, and that thatis a dog with top level drives that
understands training game and the deployment gameis far hunt and everything goes. But
(05:41):
you've got to teach these dof theodor. You got to teach them how
to hunt for it, what toowhen they locate it, so you can
read the dog and everything, soyou know, on the on the end
of it, I'm saying, youknow, twelve weeks, that's that's just
what thenever dog trunk dogs is alot more. It's a lot more into
That's the hardest fast of train thatI found. And our train dogs to
find about everything and buy people andeverything else, and tracking and training takes
(06:04):
the longest. What does it meanwhen you say it's a good trait?
Does that what you said? Whatdoes that mean? You know people think
of a German hpherd, they automaticallythink of a police dog. I mean
that's not the case. We've weuse Americans have bred out all those quas
because we want to have the lookof a police dog. It's scary and
fierce and all this stuff. Butmost people deal with the kind of what
(06:26):
we call drive. Some people thinktiredness. Actually that drive for work,
always want them to hunt, alwaysusing their nose, that drive to chase
the ball, extreme amounts of food, drive, whatever it is. These
these dogs don't typically make good pets. We try to breed them out,
like Malon Walls are a very populardog now. I recommend them as pet
for the general public, you know, not unless you're involved in something like
(06:48):
search and rescue or sport like protectionsports, or you're just a super active
person. So those are the dogsthat that train quickly. And what I
found in the such and rescue world, it's a volunteer thing. I never
got haid a dime for what Idid in such curry world. It is
(07:08):
a volunteer service that my father andI did to help people. That was
our goal or intent was to justhelp Emily's need. Um, so there
is don't mean that. And soa lot of times you get some pan
out their own pocket and they don'tunderstand. I still dogs that are not
stand that they should even be trainedfor people with good intentions that don't they
(07:32):
have money to start it. Youknow, they end up with dog from
the pound or I got I hada German Shepherd, but that's exactly what
you got that doesn't necessarily transition.The bloodhounds are the hardest dogs. Now,
blood hounds they've been bread to passlike on heat all and that's just
not the type of dog we're lookingfor, So the dog quality is a
(07:55):
one the most important factor in thetraining is having a quality dog. What
is it mean to get a dogcertified in search and rescue? They would
have to So the certification self isbasically to show reliability that the dog reliably
finds. For example, cadaver.You know there's gonna be different situations such
as there's land can ever, youhave different certifications called wilderness, you have
(08:18):
water certifications, you have different levels. Basically, the dog is tested in
different environments. Land, cadaver dog, they're going to be tested in the
house. They're going to be testedand are probably around cars, in the
woods, in a field. They'regoing to be tested a couple of different
areas to see if they can locatewhat they've been trained to do, and
also to pasts and different things likethat. And it's also it's a team
(08:41):
certification, so we're also testing thehangler to see if they can recognize what
their dog is doing if the dogis in odor and has located in different
things. Certifications aren't meant to behard, They're not subjective. They shouldn't
be subjective. They're meant to beobjective. So sometimes just because dog has
pass certification certified a national and staterecognize certifire for prees dogs. I have
(09:05):
passed dog that I personally wouldn't selland that I like, this dog's not
very good, but they meet anobjective standard. They met it in the
timeframe and they found the odors andthe handler called it. So it's objective.
And I'm still saying, like manetdog sucks. But just because it't
certified doesn't mean it's a great dog. Just means that met a minimal standard.
(09:26):
Okay, that's really helpful. Thankfor for explaining that, because one
of the things in Judy's case we'lltalk about it is these dogs were certified
and I will share that with youbecause you're asking about that, but that's
really important to know who they werecertified for. Can you tell us,
like what the difference is between searchand rescue dog and dog in regards to
(09:48):
certification, Like how well I don'ttypically use the word, you know,
the certain rescue for me is abroad term curs pretty well all the dogs
that do some type of search forrecovery rescue. So for me, certain
rescue, trailing dog taking dogs,caver dogs are sent all your things like
that when I kept asking questions aboutthe different disciplines. So basically, okay,
(10:09):
they're surf so they have certain rescuecertification is a certification for and so
you answered earlier like it was forcadaver and trailing, So that's what the
certifications are for. They've been testedit. So it's it's just a different
disciplines like such as a police dogs. People can understand that you have drug
dogs and bomb dogs. Oh yougot to your dogs a police came one,
(10:33):
Yes, Okay, what does hewhat is he trained to do?
He either finds bomb or he findsdrugs. So that was kind of what
we're getting through when that term searchand rescue would be like he saying,
oh he's a police dog, Well, what all does he do? If
they're searching rescue dogs? How doyou qualify someone for searching recues? They
can locate people or how so they'regonna typically show records, you know as
(10:56):
far as like hey, the dog'sfriend just got to meet the minimal stand
they're set forth in those organizations,and like a thrown police have shows a
background check. The dog has topass a KC Canine Good Citizen Test,
means the dog son bite everybody whenit's around those scenes stuff like that.
There's some general requirements there and thenyou know, once they have all that
(11:18):
stuff, then they can take theirtest. So you're saying, though I
think we talked about this, youusually aren't the dog isn't both search and
risk? Who are they can be? Like my cadaver dog, Roxy could
track. I didn't ever use herfor that because I had a team of
bloodhounds, but I trained they're justlike you know the police dogs and drugs.
(11:39):
They try do apprehension work all that, so they can be trained in
multiple fasts. My thing is like, if you have a true, real
good cadaver dog, I mean itcan definitely be trained a track, But
the more you divide a dog,I feel like it hurts the other stuff.
They can absolutely do it and doit well. But you know that's
a jack of all trade or nonesituation. So it's one of those things
(12:01):
where you could have dog do allof these different you know, certificates.
But the more you train and finesplit it, there's more chance for maybe
confusion or not getting to be anexpert in a certain field. Possibly,
you know, like I said,may you come back quality dog like my
you could have a dog is Imean, he is an amazing dog.
He'd absolutely be a stellar tracking though, but I'm going to use him for
(12:22):
that he is. He's gonna betrained in a single discipline just because of
the in the place where we're not. We train them with different areas and
then they do well at all ofit. So I'm not saying it can't
be and they can't be good atit all. They definitely can't be.
When we look at the case forJudy, we kind of look at her
case. We have report, butit's very vague, it's not very helpful,
(12:45):
does not tell us a lot.And unfortunately, you know, the
handler who wrote these reports is notreally is not wanting to come and talk
to us. So all we haveis her reports do not tell a whole
lot. And this is for reportthat I shared with you. She was
there on February eighth, so twodays after twelve three count Sex that Judy
(13:07):
disappeared, and we have her withtwo dogs. So there were two different
people up there. There was Wandaand Shirley who were the docmblers. One
of the questions that I have tobased on this report is one of the
dogs crickets. We don't know whatkind of dogs or I found out they
were laughs, I would have theywere definitely not bloodhounds. If they're doing
(13:31):
if they were just traveling, I'mnot safe. It's the blood hand.
If they circled on here the groundand cannaver type of search. She had
been here, that cricket, whichis one of the dogs, was able
to try duty sent from the barndown the driveway twout thirty one. So
for our listeners, as you know, we know that her property. The
(13:56):
question was when Chris scott Wright studydropped her off, is that really what
happened? Didn't she walk out thatright away? Did she not? We
now have the can report that saysthat create able to form the bar down
to the drug all the way throughoutthirty one. So my question to you,
because how long does a typical sendfor a person stay in the ear
(14:18):
in the ground. If it's threedays later, is the doge able to
pick that up if the conditions rightolder cancer ground for a few days,
but the conditions are going to beperfect. I had been behind bloodhounds a
lot, but no, if youreally look back at it and train you're
doing. You try to say,do a couple of pale track tandler involvement
like manipulation as far as like won'tyou you know that where they win or
(14:41):
you will that are property of barnssomething like it. You go take that
in consideration too. And I haveto speak a lot from the police aspect.
Our success right in police tracking peopleis extremely low. It's not because
our doctor, my ACS dogs arephenomenal tracking dogs. We find very few
people because they get gone or somebodypicks them up, something like that.
(15:05):
Especially with the cell phone egge.You know it's hard to find them.
But our success rates are higher chancesto find somebody. But you know,
you start getting out there after twentythirty minutes, your chance to find somebody
your twenty percent or blow. Probablybecause the odor and traffic will get an
inspiration on this particular deal. Okay, there are three days later, the
fire trucks is in there. Peoplebeen looking for all these different odors,
(15:26):
the oder and disturbed, they upand down the Strive way. I believe
that in the report it sets upabout a storm, not that the rain
will wash away this scent dispersing.So you've got all these different factors that
dispersing the scent everywhere. Majority ofyour well recognized trainers these days in the
police world are going to be likeno, the dal Tracks or Joe,
(15:48):
They're not able to look at Thescent can still be there in certain areas,
like let's say there's an area moistureundisturbed that they walk past. You
know, the moisture can hold thatsent three words probably if she walked up
that round way. What about thefireman? How many farreming went up there?
Any fire rush trucks back and forth, trips? I mean, dogs
can sent discriminate, absolutely, butit's really hard in those situations. Okay,
(16:15):
so they had a scent item ofduties, which is what they used
for this dog. And this againis three days later. How liable you
say this is your experience? Letme say this. I think it's irresponse
to tell the family that she hitand she was here and we don't know
when is exactly what the report said? Was it three days ago? Was
(16:37):
it five days ago? I mean, what do you mean that, I
guess the only evidence that we haven'theard he was there. I don't know
how you can sent there and saythat she was here and I know they're
gonna What the response to that fromthe handler is is well, I know
my dog. You know you shouldknow your through training what a handler means
by they got to hit. WhatI'm thinking is okay, ys an article,
(17:00):
you cast your trailing dog out onthe line, and then the dog
gives what we call a love behavior. So another words, dog through what
you think and what you see trainingdog as ating, breathing, that's what
we're looking for. First a directionchange, that's what all the alert entails.
And then you know, I numberof the tracks when I'm tracking,
like number one is that alert tothe track, and there's different their dogs
(17:22):
honny on a certain area, andthen number two the dogs driving is the
track is trying to pull you downthe trail. Okay, And to me
that is what we would consider ahit on a track. But was he
on the right track? You know? Sometimes the police were we don't find
the guy, but we find themask they wore, the gloves they were
on the robbery We tracking like,yeah, we were on because we found
(17:45):
if it's here's the glove. Wegot him on video where these clubs we
got DNA out of the gloves andmany times I get called this policehandlers talking.
I think I was on, butI don't know, but he definitely
was tracking. I think we wereon. We tracked this area to road
and he lost it. So that'sour thoughts as handlers. We want our
dogs to be right. So theyget on some trapped for ways, maybe
(18:06):
get plenty evidence. They're they're saying, like I think it wasn't you don't
know. You got to kind ofbe objected by it. You don't know
you found the dancer trapped to thatcellar, Like no, weed, Okay,
that's a little and that's not whathappened. It doesn't look like from
the report that the dogs started atthe barn, which isn't near which isn't
next to the house of the cellar. It's over there, um, so
(18:30):
possible. You know, she didgo up the joyway and went to the
barn, But why is there nothingher by the cellar because she obviously was
over there the other travels. Okay, so we're talking, like I said,
there was there was some wind andstuff like that. There was wind
and then there was a light dustingthe snow too that night, but the
whale was very high. The lotdusting the snow could have helped preserved the
(18:51):
well. Actually, you know,when you walk, you think if you
walk into the smoke, bomb toyour head and walking around and there's a
breeze, think about where the odors. You know. So it's hard to
say that questions it's so bad.And I talked to a lady there today
from Wood County who is part ofthe volunteer organization, the Wood County Surgeon
(19:12):
Rescue. You know, I said, hey, you know the handlers and
talking to us, you you know, have anything on these dogs, the
certification? Is there anything that youknow about these dogs? You know?
Her report fact was from people whoworked with the handler at that time.
They said that she had a phenomenaldog, that she was the best of
the best, which is good tohear. But you know, there is
(19:34):
question still about why was the dognot picking up other sense and going down
it's only going down the trail andthen it seemed to stop, you know,
So I'm not quite sure about howthat plays into anything. So what
we probably should call it is anon productive Basically, what she's saying.
We use the term blar place alot. It's it's a non productive response.
(19:59):
So it's to say there's evidence wisesaying except her word. I have
been many places where her handlers,you know, even police handler, because
they want to be right, theydon't want to be wrong, and then
they they'll say things like it washere. I think, you know,
what do you know when we're dealingwith this kind of stuff, thinking with
this way, we'll go check thatlead out. If it produces so great,
(20:21):
If not, well, hey wetry. You know. My question
was I had a ever dog.Why did it caaver dog not alert to
a turned dead body? It wasthat close to I mean dogs or no
task past the odor. But Iwould think being around that building, the
dog would have to own a sixbasically a small box. And that was
(20:41):
what I too. But you justsaid something. I had a question.
What does it mean when you weretalking about the dog was not giving off
any alert or what do you meanby that? I mean, sometimes there's
no indication that the dog was alerting. I'm saying it's an it come up
with another shape. He says itwas on trail. There's there's nothing there.
(21:03):
It's really a tough one. Morequarterback the handler to dog. I
don't know, it's judging off thereport things like that the dogs WoT any
help in this particular case. There'sthere's nothing really to go off of there,
but that great. I mean,that's the point. Okay, you
did better notes right of saying howyou I mean you told the family got
(21:26):
a sent from Judy item and said, oh, you told me, she
tracked it down. But then that'sall we know. And so I think
it right to talk about that becausethere's no other signs that show that the
dog was picking up on her son. And you make a good point about
the wind too, because that's whatI think carried over to the hops from
the seller based on our conversation withAlan, like I said, it's I'll
(21:48):
try to throw them a bone here. Sometimes dogs alert vehicles and we don't
find any drugs. We do streetside interviews and they're typically they're like,
no, we smoked. Some werecars more than he feels drugs. So
they basically tell us, yes,there were drugs in my car, and
dogs alert to the other if thatdead body was in there, he took
it out daily, or you comeback with the dog, that odor is
(22:10):
probably still going to be there,and the dog can indicate because they alert
to the actual oder um, theactual body layer, it's the odor of
that body. You know, thoseare sometimes non productive alert and sometimes he's
as indicating people lie to it.We don't find the evidence of the drus
were there, and the person's kindof we know they're probably lying, just
because we've done this a long time. Like I know they're lying. I
know that you drugged, and butat the end of the day, when
(22:33):
you log that, it's like it'san unproductive alert. It ends up being
an unknown. That's kind what we'redealing with. Here's just unknown. I
don't want to say, no,they weren't there, they're wrong. I
don't know if they were wrong orright. The mistake that certain rescue handlers
make speaking of the family, like, yeah, ask questions prior, and
you may have if you post questionsall up to maybe make sense of what
you're dogton, I never went tothe family. I think I think he's
(22:56):
here. I think he's I mighttell the sheriff or the law of force.
It's not my place to go talkto the family, right, And
that's you know, unfortunate that gearsit towards something else. Right, And
so one of the things I wantto talk about is one of the dogs
showed interested in the area in frontof the fireplace. Again, the whole
house was burnt down, but there'sa fireplace. And then the other dog
(23:17):
supposely worked the area hard but didn'twant to stay. We kind of talked
about this a little bit, butwhat does it mean, like show interest
versus like hitting? Is each dogseparate based on their line? First interest
in hitting was that every every dogs, you know, they all said like
me in dog trainer. It maylook a little different each dog, but
(23:40):
they primarily all the same showing interest. I've heard that term many times.
I have even used that term wellout on a cadaver deployment. You know,
looking back, you learned, likeI said, you learn a lot
from past deployments, and you mesurein that particular field or whatever field you're
in, you learn Maybe said thatbecause like if I'm want doing looking for
(24:03):
somebody's drowned. There's been times formy dog like showed a ton of interest
to the side of the boat,but she never gave medication. It was
nothing that I would call because yougotta think I'm not gonna put a diver's
life at charity. I said,I got some interest right here. Now,
there has been tons where I've beenover and my dogs go hard in
one spot and the divers were goingto die no matter what I said,
(24:26):
listen, if you're gonna die,they start here first, you know what
I mean. And just like probablygot a lot of share compared to everything
else, you're gonna dive, youknow, try here first, maybe more
productive. That's kind of probably whatthey man. Their dog was showing different
behavior in that area. Dogs showdifferent behavior in a lot of circumstances.
Most resembled well she has seen intraining. While working, she was at
(24:51):
once really directed basically interest with beingthe dog was drinking it sniff in a
particular area. And we had moreclarity on this, you know, because
in regards to her repulse, becauseyou know, one of the things that
have a question is the dogs kindof are joining, if you will,
interest in the cellar. But itwas too hot for them to go down
in, but they wanted to.But even if these remains are like cremated,
(25:18):
you know, there wasn't hardly anythinglife. One of the things that
we thought was that dogs can't pickup after a certain point of remains that
it's cremated. Is that true.No, there's still bones and stuff there.
DNA may be gone type situations,but there's still own fragments and different
things left. At that point,there's still human odor. You can't understand,
(25:40):
We as humans have about ten millionold factory receptors in our noses.
Dogs have anywhere for two hundred orthree hundred million old factory recenters. So
that is why we use dogs.We don't you know, I don't think
that we know just how good animalsnoses are. But I've seen my dog
do some amazing stuff as far.I can literally go high tooth one human
(26:03):
tooth in my yard and he willfind it. Get the wind blows,
he's down when you'll see give thealert behavior, and then he'll go find
it. Train final response which isun either a down or sitting sphere.
Wow. So even though her bodywas cremated to the you know, her
remains where there's hardly anything left,you know besides her, they should have
(26:23):
still been able to pick up andhit on that if they would have her
dogs. Should you know? Iemphasized the word should you because let's say,
maybe there's a lot you gotta thinksthe dog knowses here, But the
web that we train. You know, we work on thresholds, so I
trained to source as much as hospital. So in other words, I want
my dog to get as close aspossible to finding what he is looking for.
(26:48):
You know, if there's who I'mtraining, drugs or bombs or whatever,
if the dog can get two inchesfrom it and get two inches from
it. But if you can onlyget as close at team to team foot
from, you'll have to indicate.So that's where it's it. Yeah,
they were interests in the stellar wantingto go down in there, but I
don't think they actually gave an alertsign it's from. That's how hirating it
(27:11):
would agree. I agree pulled shepulled a sad face out there that they
pulled the dogs away, And Iunderstand why they did that because then they're
saying I would have to find becauselet's be real, as bad as what
is her family stuff, You've workedhard to brain a dog to do a
certain job. If it's there,you want to find it, you know,
no matter if it's a dead body, you miss a kid, you
(27:33):
know, trying a criminal. It'slike you want that fine, That's what
it's like. Yes, it's paidoff. You know, I understand the
little sad face of the report isthey pulled their dog off of okay,
so it was everything leading to herremains there the dog was growing interesting possible
that could have that could have heardtalking and saying you know, who knows
what they would say now, ButI understand the reports writing interest so they
(27:56):
could go back like, well,gave me changes. But I can pretty
well remember most amount of clements incadaver, you know, and how my
dog acted in certain places and didn'tact different things like that. So one
of the other thans I have is, and you've mentioned this too, what
does like work area? Harman?Was just like the dogs are focused on
(28:18):
that area because in the report itsays that cricket work there was behind the
house and cellar and wanted to goin the cellar. But does this mean
that cricket picked up Judy sent likein the woods behind the house, because
that's one of the things we're consideringis it's come to the back way.
What does like work a hard mean? I have to assume what it means
to me because it say it weren'tvery hard. So the dog is very
(28:44):
directed and sniffing. In one pictulararea so behind the cellar, like the
dog just keeps working and doesn't wantto look the area or something like that.
Let's say that maybe the wind wasblowing towards the woods, how farward
was relatively close, you know,at beyond that it worked from the woods
to the cellar. Because so there'sa we call it a sitcome you know,
(29:06):
you're the point origin of the scent, and then the winds blowing away
that just wider and wider and wider. You know, the sitcoone huge and
the dogs like I actually worked ona cast with a cadaver dog last year.
I wasn't it wasn't my dog,somebody. I was just as their
flanker. We did not want togo on this person's backyard. We were
received basically walking through properties missing personwe thought probably suicidal. We got about
(29:32):
one hundred at the yards from wherethe body was found in a treehouse about
twelve foot up that dog. Whenwe worked, we worked for probably four
hours total all over the plate.And that particularly the dogs giving that interest
something that they're probably referring to,like I'm like this, this looks like
the dogs like, okay, where'sthis at? And we didn't let the
(29:52):
dog go any Forhether's big nice houseand this ladies associated well a few hours
later of officers thought, huh,let me go check that injure enough she
was in there and kill herself andwith very gory scene with all the blood
and everything. The dog probably didsmell that from one hundred and fifty parts
away. But you kind of seewhat I'm saying, like the dog I'll
(30:14):
never know, Like I said,that handler pulled out and we just won't
look that really the case if weshould have let the dog go. Telling
you that story, Kenny, letyou know what the thought process probably is
in the right And that's exactly becauseit leads us to so many different questions,
like you're open and narrow it down, and we really can't right now
with the reports that we had,you know, because one of the questions,
(30:36):
like I mentioned, is you know, now we have a dog walking,
you know, saying that she walkedup the driveway, then we have
a dog showing working hard in theback area. But is it all just
kind of the same stem her beingthere in the wind and the fire that
it is kind of in these differentplaces and it doesn't mean that came in
from the back at all. Myprofessional opinion, the trailing dog stuff is
(31:00):
point. There's too much, toomuch traffic up there. They had storms,
snow, whatever else when and justall the traffic and she's there three
days later that the trailing in theIncescy. Yeah, except she she thinks
through training. The trailing dog isa moot point. In my opinion,
my interests would be in the cadaverdog, because that's the one at that
(31:21):
point, because it's no longer trailingbase would be daver dog stuff, you
know. And they didn't find anyevidence in anywhere that they trailed, so
at that point you can't put anystock into the trailing might the dog being
interested behind cellar in the woods goingtowards each other. I put a little
stock in that because very well saidthat women on a drag and the odor
(31:42):
was blowing round there there, andthe dog was in cadaver mode. I
guess I'm just interested in what dogswitch like. If Cricket's the one who
worked the trail, and and thatis Crecket the cadiver dog, or you
know, or in it you saidthat one of them was certified both trailing
and coldever dual purpose stuff. Yeah, but I don't know which one or
(32:05):
if they both were. It's hardto say. I was. I kind
of like it was Cricket because that'sthe dog's name that was mentioned so many
times, so it may have beenthat. And that's another thing too,
you got you gotta look at thebreed of dog. I think you said
that they were labs. Labs makegreat track and trailing dogs, but the
bloodhound is second to none when itcomes to trailing dogs, to my personal
opinion, because I've trained behind them. I trained tons of different breeds for
(32:30):
tracking and trailing. It is thebest that, don't get wrong, shepherds
and pointers and on their phenomenal trackingdogs. But I don't know how you
know what the lab was like,I thought, well, even looking at
it now, Blake, I'm likereading it again, and it says that
Cricket was the one who worked thearea hard but didn't want to stay in
front of the fire. But thenCricket worked the winds behind house and the
(32:52):
cellar and wanted to go into thecellar. And Cricket was the one who
did the trail. It was thedog for the deployment. Okay, just
curious, all right, So,like you said, in your opinion.
I mean, what are some ofyour like suggestions or what is there anything
else we can do or get fromthese reports? Oh, I did poably
(33:14):
believe the dogs in this situation anda dog guy, But the dog is
not all the answer and the dogswill always provide just based off the reports.
You know, I don't know muchabout like the actual case and everything
based off the actual can report,there is not any useful information into solving
the crime with these particular dogs.I think you can put a lot of
(33:37):
stalk into what they said about tellingshe was here, don't you know him
in a direction? I mean Idon't know. Yeah, no, fair
enough. This is what we wanthere is just you're I mean, you're
an expert in this. You've beendoing this, you Traine, you know,
and it's just you know, lookingat everyone's opinion and weighing in on
this. And that's what the bestskating is. It's more of a crowdsource
(34:00):
investigation. So it's you know,it's not what you know, it's what
you can prove, right, It'snot what you know, what you can
prove. That's what separates us inthe police world versus somebody that's not in
our world. We know, Iknow, I worked in drug tests for
a lot of years, investigations.I knew a lot of people that were
(34:20):
selling dope. But what I couldprove in a court of law? What
can I prove to get this personallocked up? It's not what you know?
I mean, what you know?Can you in the right direction?
But unfortunately, based off case here, there's nothing to lead us anywhere,
no evidence, Like didn't try toissue like there was a footprint. They
said that non productive. You know, that would have been the only thing,
like, oh they kind of footprint. Now the dog didn't give us
(34:42):
nothing on it. So basically justnon productive is the canine deployment was?
You know, And I'm glad youmuch about the footpart. And I didn't
think about that. She didn't reportthat the dog picked up the footman.
Basically that footprint what associated with anythingher dog said? So you gotta go
with it, you know, actuallylong ago, justin I know, I
asked all the questions because I'm likeso and bad, I'm like what,
(35:04):
I don't understand any of this?Do you have any questions for Blake?
Blake was answering a lot of myconcerns as he was answering your questions.
Mine just mainly centered around the reliability, the accuracy percentage, and Blake answered
all those definitely satisfied my questions.So this was rful Blake, because I
(35:25):
think for us on the team,you know, we constantly go round and
round around about the driveway and thenseeing us report, you know, you're
like, oh, what does thismean? And I think absolutely right is
I think we have to toss itdeside. It doesn't really tell us anything.
You're going down to Betty, Andwith that particular situation, I hate
it because we have been very helpfulin the past, you know, with
(35:47):
all handlers, even in the searchand recovery world, but this particular one
to just you being always going tobe able. I think that's situation here
with that and you know, andI can take from all of course rest
with my involvement. I've showed up. I've been on BIX. My Cada
is actually on the NBC Today Showon a case that rode out there and
(36:08):
NBC Today Show is there and here'sroxy you know, you know, I'm
saying that she's on national TV.But you know, the first recovery worlds
I like to say a bad name. But there's a lot of them that
come out of the woodworks, saythey have these dogs and they show up
(36:28):
with these fat house pets that haveno drive. And you gotta understand police,
even if they're canine handlers, theysee our dogs and how they are
their drives everything. He says,well he's walking around this and this,
and you're like whatever. And whenI showed up on these big scenes,
you know, there's a big bloodhere. There was ten eleven people that
(36:50):
died in it, and I showup. It's across the state based off
the way my dog pareils that came. Like, you're coming with the hot
area where we haven't and we feellike there's probably going to be bodies.
You know, I know you getmad, but I'm like, I'm one
of them. I'm a police officer, and they did when I show up.
A lot of times I would bein front of some of them that
get in what we call the hotareas. You know, like this is
(37:14):
a proper productive area. Some ofthese people just don't have the necessary training
that they need and stuff. Andthere's so many good organizations out there.
I've worked with some phenomenal people.That's all they do. They volunteer,
and but they do it right.They have right dogs, the right training,
the right support system, and that'svery important. And in this group
they sound like they probably, especiallysince they were certified in different things,
(37:37):
they were probably putting in the timeand the training. It's just unfortunately in
this case it was no help andthe reports weren't hold though. And that's
the thing. It was all inher head and she hadn't write it down
or document it could have gave usmore. Right, that's down on camera
anymore. It didn't happen, youknow, right, all the same in
(37:58):
healthcare. I'm in healthcare. Didn'tdo it, didn't charted, it didn't
happen, right, So anyways,awesome, Well you've been amazing and if
it's okay, if we have anotherquestion, we can reach out to you.
Are you if you're in our icebookgroup, you know, if anyone
has any questions after the episode,please I know I can always reach out
to Lake and ask them and getback to you. This is really again,
(38:19):
thank you so much, another experton the duty, honey Kase.
And you know, we'll just keepgoing forward and see what we can't do.
So thank you so much. Weappreciate it. Blake, thanks a
lot for taking the time. Absolutelyso thank you so much. Again,
another episode of Saving all Right,Good Deal.
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