E12 - Our Latest Visit to Parkersburg

In this episode, Melissa, Justin, and Jen, sit down to talk about the lastest trip to Parkersburg. On that trip they got the chance to meet the Prosecutor's Investigator, Doug Sturm, in person and also conduct more interviews.

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Here on the safe Haven Podcast.Any names mentioned should not be considered as
suspects unless officially stated as such bylaw enforcement. Any opinions during interviews on
this podcast or the opinions of theinterviewee and don't reflect the opinions of the
safe Haven Podcast or the AMU ColdCase Team. Everyone is innocent until proven

(00:21):
guilty in a court of law.Welcome to this episode a safe Haven.
You were here again with me,Justin and Melissa, my esteemed co host,
and of course we have Jen withus this time, who is also
an esteemed co host in this situation. So, ladies, how are you
guys doing today? Doing well,doing well. We are excited to record

(00:46):
this episode to talk about our timewhen we were there in Parkersburg. We've
had some time so i'd look backand by everything. It was a very
productive trip. Yeah, I agree, Yeah, very very well. Thanks
for having me on you guys totalk about Yeah, well, thanks for
joining us. Well, you hada full day, so I'm glad you
carved down a little bit of timefor us. It's been an interesting day.

(01:07):
Sunday listeners will learn more about it. Probably that's been a good day.
That's all right. You too,had gotten to Parkersburg a couple days
before me. I was not ableto go until Sunday, So why don't
you go ahead and take us throughh you know, Thursday, Friday,
and Saturday. And of course youwere there must I got that Thursday,

(01:29):
and I got there Friday. Soyes, okay, so I can talk
about Thursday. But what day didI arrive. I've done firstday Thursday,
No Wednesday. So I got inParkersburg on Wednesday afternoon and all day Thursday.
I spent with Doug Strows, theinvestigator on Judy's case, and all
day Thursday. It was really interesting. It was the first time I met

(01:53):
Doug in person. Very nice guy. He was very welcoming of me and
the whole team, and so weactually spent the whole day together going over
Judy's case, and then we actuallygot an opportunity to reinterview the whole family.
So what we did was listeners.We wanted to start this investigation like

(02:15):
we did in September, Square one, redo it all. So we started
with the family just because an investigationyou want to start with those class the
victims, and we're way out,so we brought in missus Petty. We
brought in sister Kelly, Wanda andCheryl, and we had an opportunity to

(02:37):
reinterview them get we would have backtwo thousand and eight or could have done
back in two thousand and eight.We really spent a lot of time going
through the details to specific details regardsto Judy and her movements the day before,
in the day of February six.So I was just so I think
taken away and owner that Doug alot of me to sit in these interviews

(03:00):
with him. So I remember textingwhile but I thought I was on the
first forty eight. I was superexcited about it. It was like crazy
for listeners. You know. Iwas able to sit in the interview and
does allow me to ask questions whenI had them, and then at the
end of each interview, he wouldask if I had anything further and so

(03:23):
I really felt like, this isjust an amazing opportunity. We have something
really special here with Doug in thesense of him working side by side with
us. He is awesome. Yeah, oh absolutely, And I'll admit I
had my reservations about the guy.I'm always cautious about that kind of thing,

(03:44):
and it's just my upbringing my nature. That's just how it is.
And I love the guy. Imean, we sat there and talked with
him, and he was a straightshooter, he was honest. I don't
know. I have a lot ofrespect for him. And I didn't realize,
I guess how serious he was aboutworking with us until actually being there
in the same room, and Iwas like, Okay, this dude is

(04:06):
one hundred percent on board. He'sserious. The prosecutor was in there for
a little bit talking to us aboutsome stuff, and I asked him a
few questions, and it was justa really good experience for me personally because
I got to see the other sideand got to see, like he really

(04:27):
is dead serious about working with usand exchanging information and ideas and theories.
And I can't I can't say enoughhow how I enjoyed the time there,
And of course I got to gosee Marvin, hang out with Marvin for
a little bit and how and uhme and him had some fun and uh
yeah, talk to Joan. Igot to get one of those sweet hugs

(04:47):
from Joan, which those things thatwoman's hugs melt my soul. Yeah,
you know, and it's just likeshe it was very nice. But you
know, I'm kind of jumping gonea little bit because I you guys were
there a lot longer than me.And the good thing that I really enjoyed
was the fact that Doug went overto the Petty's house with us on Monday

(05:10):
morning. He answered all their questionswhile we were answering their questions, and
he I mean, he didn't sugarcoatanything. He told him exactly what he
thought, and he's very open tohear what everybody else has to say too,
So it was just for me agood experience all the way around.
Yeah. Absolutely, George and Ihave worked a few cases together now and

(05:32):
we've always been able to get ameeting with the investigating authority or a detective
on case for an hour or two. That's it. And Doug literally cleared
three out of the forest of hisschedule that we were in town and pretty
much was our side, I mean, all the way to dinner every night.
I've never experienced that before. ButI don't know how the right words

(05:53):
to describe, like how happy andcan it made me that I finally have
an of us eating authority that standsthe value that we bring and to work
with us and it's successful. Andhe was very complimentary about us too.
I mean when we were sitting thereat dinner, I think it was a
Monday night or Sunday night. Ibelieve, No, it is Monday night.

(06:15):
Of course at an Applebee's. Ilove it, and we're we're all
sitting there. Well, I mean, I love apples on it all the
time, but I love apple I'venever had a bad meal there, and
everybody just throws shade on Applebee's andI'm like, you know what, I
love the place, man, Ido. But it was it was great
because we were all sitting there andI did not expect it. He goes,

(06:38):
you guys have put more hours thanour office can put into this.
You guys have done so much work. He's very complimentary, I guess you
could say, and and that thatalso surprised me, So I was,
you know, we were just kindof sitting there and Dug. Me and
Doug are on the same page aboutwe're both about percentages and plausibility in certain

(07:00):
scenarios, and we definitely agree onthat, and it's it's one of those
things I've always gotten a lot ofshit for because you have plausible scenarios that
have a higher percentage than others,and it's like, you have to work
those percentages. And he when hesaid that, I was like, let's

(07:23):
go, dude, you are righton the same page as me. We
do see eye to eye on thatwhen doing investigations or looking into different scenarios.
So that was pretty cool. Yeah, And like I said, I
just I came away with a differentattitude towards him and towards the prosecutor's office,
and it was it was definitely forthe better because I'm so cautious about

(07:45):
that. I was like, man, these guys are gonna just we're civilians
showing up, you know, allthis and that. Yeah, I walked
away definitely with a different mindset thanwhat I got there. And your past
experience with other investigations you've tackled through, you know, your side volunteer work
and podcasting and everything. I mean, how you encountered any other law enforcement

(08:07):
agency like this that we had thesame level relationship, not agency wise,
personnel wise, Yes, personnel wise, there are some people who are more
willing to work with outside help thanothers, but as an agency in a
hole, absolutely not. I didhave the law enforcement that I did work

(08:31):
with on a lot of my Lawton, Oklahoma stuff. They chose to remain
anonymous, and that was for verygood reason and I totally respect that.
But they also helped out a lotbehind the scenes, and that person's boss
knew what was going on, whatthey were doing, what we were doing

(08:52):
together with the investigation, and theywere all for it. But they did
not want to be evolved. Theydidn't want name dropped, They didn't want
their law enforcement agency dropped anything likethat. So to an extent, yes,
but for the most part, no, not a whole, not an
entire agency like the prosecutor's office.Who I mean, they let us into

(09:18):
the police department right up to thethird floor and we're sitting here watching a
video of we won't say too muchabout it, but we're watching Chris Cutt
right get an interviewed again. AndI mean we're just sitting there with detectives
and they're watching the video with usand giving us input and it it was
nice. It was a breath offresh error for me, sure, because

(09:41):
yeah, you don't see that veryoften, and you know, maybe in
the future there will be more possibilitieslike this, and I hope that's the
case. But um, this wassomewhat rare of an occasion for me personally.
What about you, Jen, Imean, I've never had this level
of agreement or cooperation with any lawenforcement agency out of the month with this

(10:05):
case. But out of the othercases, the four cases total that me
and George along you guys have tackled. Like I said, usually we can
get a reading in from town.That's about it. In some cases that's
fine. You know, I don'tmind there being one way road with in
the skating athority for a while becausewe like to start fresh any days.
And I don't mind not having thecase film and beginning I've heard of just

(10:28):
start, you know, let's figureout what the actual acts of this case
are and you know, send informationand exper analysis and new interviews with people
and stuff to the police. Andthat's fine. But it's some point there's
got to be I don't know,a situation where they start sharing because otherwise
it's like, well, are webeing helpful to you? Are we hurting
you? Are we? You know, we need them feedback here. And

(10:48):
then there comes a point where there'sjust some details Me and George just can't
get on our own. I mean, would duck. I mean we're literally
like, well, we would liketo interview this person. He's literally looking
up on his database is where theylive? For us? You know,
we could probably figure that out.It would take us ten times longer.
And it was just so nice tohave them fat for buyers helping and going

(11:11):
on that. I think Doug getsit, you know, he's like,
you guys have the ability to putx amount of hours into a case.
And he said something when we weresitting there at dinner, and he said,
uh, he goes, here's adeal, like we get a case
and we have maybe three days beforeanother one comes in. Sure, and
he goes, we can't concentrate theamount of hours that you guys concentrate on

(11:33):
one single case. And he goes, that's where you have us, because
we can still help. We canstill do all this stuff for you legally,
everything like that. But you guyshave put in the hours that we
don't have. He goes, wedon't have the time and resources to put
into like one case like this,And I mean it makes a lot of
sense. It was perfect sense.But I loved his honesty about it.

(11:54):
Yeah, he's very open and honestabout that. And this is a whole
case, you know what I mean, like too right now, we all
know that Gretchen Fleming is the bigyou know case right now going on in
Parsburn. The manpower that that takesto focus on trying to find her,
you know, we can foc onduty. There was a lot of conversation

(12:16):
or you know that Gretchen's search interferedwith you know, duties benefit that we
were holding to raise increase reward fundand that just isn't the case. Parkersburg
PD did not set up this searchfor Gretchen. It was an outside organization
they were in charge of in thelogistics of the search, but it had

(12:39):
nothing to do with because safe Haven'sholding something for Judy Petty that all of
a sudden, Gretchen as a searchparty. And as we talked about,
both cases deserve the attention that they'rethey're getting. We even wanted to go
volunteer to go help look for Gretchenif it wasn't at the same time that
our benefit for duty was. Butboth cases have can require people. Some

(13:03):
people could go to Aggressions and thenother people, based on the conditions,
could go to Judy's. I mean, there's tony of people. Not we're
not trying to fight for who getsmore attention. Where I think I was
coming from for Judy's cases, thatthis is a gold case. It's two
thousand and eight. So when theyhave all of these other current, more
recent cases, they're having to youknow, work those and focus on those.

(13:26):
Whereas we can kind of say,let us help do what we do
for an older case and then bringit to you. And Doug follows up
everything I bring him, I mean, everything I bring him, he will
look into for me. So Ithink that's just an amazing partnership that we
have, you know, with him. And so, you know, kind

(13:48):
of getting back to on Thursday,you know, we met and like I
said, we interviewed the family.I know that there's a lot of people
our listeners who have asked, youknow, is somebody in the family.
It's pretty close and you know,we can say when we walked away,
the family at this point isn't highup on the list of people that were
interested in We were able to geta lot of questions answered, a lot

(14:13):
of details that we just didn't havefrom the case file answered. And so
when you have you know, twopeople asking questions in room trying to you
know, just basically start from theground up. You're able to move actually
move people in that line of onthe list or kind of lowered down.
And so I will say mister missusPetty came down to the police station.

(14:37):
Again, I'm going to say thatit was extremely difficult for both of them,
and mister Petty sat in an interviewroom with us or with Doug for
over an hour answering questions, andyou know, he was not well at
all. You could hear the mancoughing through the whole police department. And

(14:58):
Missus Petty showed up as well toask, you know, and be interviewed.
And again these people are, youknow, in their eighties and they're
fighting. So, you know,I just want to make note that again,
mister Petty was very sick, andyet he refused to sit home to
the hospital. For the listeners whodo not know, he went to the

(15:18):
hospital the day after we left,yes, and he was in there for
I believe three days. He wasfighting. I think it was congestive heart
failure infection. And I tell youwhat, man god Well has Kelly.
I was talking to her a littlebit and I just told her I was
like, I was like, year, old man is just a tough,

(15:39):
tough old dude. Man. She'slike, yeah, he's getting out today,
and I'm just I don't know,I'm in I'm in awe of that
guy. I just have so muchrespect for him because he just will not
he just doesn't stop. He justkeeps going. He doesn't he doesn't.
So, you know, I thinkafter a third day, literally we were

(16:02):
interviewing from eight to four NonStop.It was back to back to back back,
and you know, I kind ofjoked with Doug like, are you
like waiting for me to leave now? Because just making you work. We
didn't even take lunch, the poorguy. I think I let them have
like one bathroom break. But sowe interviewed from eight to four and then
I went and got Genu at theairport on Friday. Jen, Yeah,

(16:25):
I'm still confused on my day,so it could you actually doing interviews Friday,
But it's okay. I don't evenknow what did I say Thursday?
Thursday? Yep, I don't knowwhat days. I will say this one
of the funniest parts when we weresitting in there Monday with Doug and we
literally for the listeners. We hada dry erase board and we wrote down

(16:47):
all this information times what was inconsistenciesin different stories, and we actually had
a printed out satellite map that wasprobably I don't know, three by three
or two by two you, Imean, it was nice sized, and
we sat in there with Doug andjust plotted all this out and looked at
everything. And one thing Doug said. We were sitting there and it was

(17:10):
towards the end and he just looksat us and he goes, you guys,
chose the hardest case in this county. Man. He's like, I
don't know how you chose it thehardest one. That to me all all
day Thursday. Yeah, so itwas not just cool. We'll talk about
our time with him there, butthat's what I mean. It was all

(17:32):
day Friday just hanging with him,and it was really interesting. He introduced
me to everybody and just was verywelcoming and I just kept, I think,
texting saying that this is just amazingopportunity. And so you know,
for him to include us like thatwhen obviously that didn't have to happen,
it was really neat. So thenI went and at you Jen, and
then I probably talked a mile aminute when I picked you up on the

(17:55):
way back. There was a timeto talk about and what do we do.
We went and got some dinner,and then George got in late that
night, and of course we stayup to like two of them or what
it was, but ourselves when we'reeach other, it's just like yaking and
not making I mean we're talking casestuff. We talked case for four hours
that night, you know, asin the town. But right we were

(18:21):
talking about it and what's so funny, I mean, John, and we
look, it's like twelve three.Of course there's wine being had, so
we're talking is like twelve thirty,and all of a sudden we look and
it's like two thirty in the morning, and we're going where the time.
Oh George, it's your fault.And it was like we have to get
up early, so we kicked themout. Yeah, it was about like
that on on Monday night. Almost. Yeah, everything is when you only

(18:48):
have four days on the ground,you cram so much in you don't have
time during the day to like processor really talk to each other through it.
And so at night back of theroom is the only time we had,
you know, about the day andwe still have to figure out,
Okay, what are we doing tomorrow? Because days packed, I think somethle
things. Song a cold case islike you go somewhere a couple of days
and you kind of me. I'maround the town and figure it out.

(19:11):
Let me tell you the schedule isgrilling. It is not a TV show.
No, I will tell you thatbecause I got there later, and
I mean we were at it straightup Monday morning. Ye. And it
was like, my schedule is alot different from Gin and Melissa's because I'm
a second shift guy, so Idon't even get home from work until eleven

(19:33):
thirty or midnight, and it's likeI'm up till four o'clock in the morning,
and it's I get into Parkersburg.I think it's Sunday night, probably
around eight thirty, and I wasstarving, so it's like, let's go
get some food. And of courseme and me and George go on tangents
about other stuff for a long time, and Jen is like, okay,
let's wrap it up. We're leaveit. But it was it was productive

(19:55):
though, because even though we're sittingin a hotel room, because we went
back to the hotel room and alljust chilling in the same room and we're
just drinking a little bit of wineand hanging out. But the conversations that
we had while we were there werevery just insightful. Everybody is bouncing ideas
off of each other, and that'swhat I enjoyed that quite a bit because

(20:18):
we're all just talking back and forthand bouncing ideas and in theories and stuff.
And we were all getting ready foryou know, Monday morning. So
I'm me being on my shift.I'm like, yeah, I'm good to
go until like four or five inthe morning, dude. But it's like
I gotta be up at nine tomorrow. It's like I'm already in the morning.

(20:41):
It was a killer for me,but yeah, it was. It
was It was good. We gointo Saturday, you know, got inturday
night and then um, George andI had arranged a presentation at the library
on Nelson Avenue, which was probablythe most appropriate place for Asian because that's
last place in theory that Judy wasyou know, was scene alive, but

(21:04):
well that was her original goal wasstill the library, So I think that's
significant because that's where she said shewas going. And yeah, that's where
she went, but then ended atthe farm. So yeah, it's it's
kind of um, it's an importantpiece. Yeah, yeah, that's the
word. Yeah. And we hada great turnout. I don't know,

(21:26):
at least thirty people, and um, George and I gave a presentation on
her team's methodology, and then heand I talked through the four cases that
we've been involved in together. Andit's hard to cram four cases into like
an hour and fifteen presentation hour andfifteen minute presentation, but yeah, we
had a great presentation and signed upthe books, and then we went over

(21:48):
to you know, the fundraiser Imeet greet that. Let's say I set
up with the family and man,yeah, how did that go? You
guys were there. Unfortunately I wasnot able to attend because of a prior
obligation. It's gonna tell the smallanecdote that I witnessed and George I and
George goa cirty sure, I havea nice head of half for your age.

(22:11):
Barne touches the back like the crownof d He's like, well,
let's stay a little bit. Ohmy god, come on, man.
Yes, it was fantastic. Ilest to talk about it because she did
most of it. No, itwas definitely a team effort and it was
a great meet and greet and wehad it at the North End Town and

(22:34):
we had a really good turn out. I was really happy. Um.
I was happy to see the wholefamily came out and again, you know,
there was a lot of other familiesthat showed up to support the Petty
family, and it was great tosee mister Petty act with his relatives he
hasn't seen and just this really greatcommunity sport because there was a lot of

(22:56):
friends and neighbors and people who haveNoah Petties. The Petties are pretty be
known around the town in certain areasbecause they've been there the whole lot.
So the support for the Petty familywas very generous. And then what I
loved was we were accepting donations forthe raffle, and as I'm standing there
putting together the stuff that you know, we had gotten, people would just

(23:17):
show up there drawing off more stuff. Like the community like here's this gift
card. All the best phone waslike that botox one that was a hot
item. I didn't know if ifI wasn't Parker for putting on it,
but you know who won. Itwas Tyler Race, the nephew. He
put a perfect that's what he's goingfor, so by Race, I want

(23:40):
to know how it's how it's working. And that was a bit that was
a big deal. And even thebar, the waitresses were helping support us
and we're buying raffle tickets and thebar owner himself donated a lot of things.
So it's a really good turnout.And we had a Wtap shop again,

(24:00):
shout out to Wtap. They fantasticwith us and they did a great
coverage. And then we also hadthat don't come out. So again the
community in itself just rise behind thePatty family and hoping that they will have
answers as to what happened to Judy. So it was a really good event.

(24:21):
Jen, what's our total right now? The reward? What are we
are? Oh, we raised twentyfive hundred bucks, so now we can
increase the reward to seventy. Yeah. Just listen, this is from our
bank account, a bank account weset up. This isn't like you have
to pay taxes or something. Soforward, and you have the information that

(24:41):
leads to the rest connection of J. Steller. That's twenty five tax free.
I will write a check and that'sit you put in your account.
So and nobody even has to knowwho you are. Absolutely, so just
in mind, like you don't haveto be public your information, but we'll
keep you completely financial if we needtoo. If that's what you request,
maybe someone out there to them tobring forward that piece of information that we

(25:06):
need. I don't know it's worthit to me perfect I'd make that money
right now. Ye, I didn'teven think that it's tree, but yeah,
I mean that was a really goodturn out. We saw more shirts,
more Safe Haven shirts are going outthe door. So just overall amazing
support of the petty Melie. SoI was glad we got to do that

(25:26):
and everyone got to meet each other. And then some day we got up
early again and went out and metwith Dug out at the property. So
Dug had never been out to thePetty farm. And when I went with
him on Friday, my day's correct, now if I was. When I
was with him on Friday, Ihad mentioned that we were going to go

(25:48):
out to the farm on Sunday andHe's like, can I come along?
I've never been out there and Iwill see it going. Yes, and
I was just, I tell you, big heart for just really, here's
the thing. He's sticking by hisword. So he's said in the beginning
he's lived up too the whole way, and um, I said, absolutely,

(26:12):
you meet us out there. Sosure enough he had a booms and
we walked up that lovely driveway andthen I'll want to say something about that.
So this was almost the I thinkwe were one day off from the
date Judy went missing, right,so we're pretty much fair. Yeah,
yeah, was fifteen years so oneday off. But it was the bottom

(26:34):
of that driveway. Number one wasso my like, I think we all
got our shoes super muddy, justsitting around the gate at the bottom of
the dry which Judy would have hadto do in the dark, and then
going up the driveway there were severalspots that were muddy and slippery like and
there's once I did slip but inball caught. But it was that slip

(26:56):
from that mud in some areas,and I'm thinking, how did she navigate
this at night in a block,And that's the question that lingered with me.
But it was really good for usto experience what she did, even
though we were there during the day, but the conditions probably almost uncle and
that helpful. Yeah, and Ithink too. Doug Bron was walking up

(27:18):
talking to him. He said,well, it might have been like back
in two thousands, it might havebeen more gravel or more thing that it
is now, but it's still youcan kind of see how it's very similar.
You know. I don't think itwould have changed too much. But
one of the things that I tookaway is on the way back, or
actually on the way up, welooked and there was this open field area

(27:41):
and we had asked Wanda or shementioned actually that they would take that path
instead of coming up the driveway tobypass all that mud or a lot of
that uneven terrain, they would walkthis field. That's much easier. It's
it's a field. And said,well, that makes a lot more sense.
And so we actually took that onthe way back, just se was

(28:04):
because it was very different terrain.It wasn't wasn't rocky, but it was
hilly. Yeah, part of itwas easier than the lower part. Yeah,
connecting to the highway I thought washarder. It was so uneven and
like it had really tall grow deadweeds and stuff. So it was hard
to actually see their train even thanthe lot, and so it's someone on

(28:26):
a flashlight. I could see it, but I'm like, the pitch black.
I don't know whether this would bea good way to get up or
down from the property. I don't. I mean, I just I know
I struggled coming down that area andyeah, yeah it was rough, and
I was like, maybe if you'regoing up but still be uneven um and

(28:48):
pitch black. But you know,so we walked up the driveway again.
The whole family's out there, andhere's the thing. They're excited that Doug
is here for this is like abig deal because they ever had this right,
they never had really someone take thisseriously and show like that they're really
here to try to help. Andso you've got mister Petty out there again.

(29:12):
He wasn't going to stay at home, so he out there three hours
before. We'd do some work outthere, and you know, it's like,
what are you doing? It wasreally great for dog to see the
seller, to see the house.I can he commended it on how small
the seller is, but how closeit is to the home. So everyone's

(29:33):
kind of shocked by those two things. If I haven't actually been out there,
and it was just a really goodmoment of everyone again talking, brainstorming,
going over different things. Doug isasking questions because he's not been out
there, and now he's like,well now I have more right because photographs

(29:55):
can do so much, like weall know. So we did that,
and then we decided it would begood to drive the rocks that Judy took,
so you know, walked down thedriveway and I got the pleasure or
done the pleasure riding with me thewhole time. So it feels about that.

(30:18):
But the quote unquote pleasure of ridingin a car, yeah, you
know that we went around together.We did we had to go get coffee,
yeah, which was an interesting turnedin. Yeah, that turned into
an adventural in itself because everywhere wasclosed or everywhere only took cash, and

(30:41):
it's like, I don't have anycash, tell me right now. And
then Melissa got her wish and gotStarbucks because that's what she wanted in the
first play, and it's like,well, it's the only place around,
you know, so I guess,I guess that's where we're going. And
then it was funny because not tohit too far off topic, what we're
sitting in there and you're like,what do you want? I'm like a

(31:03):
black coffee and you're like, okay, just black coffee. And I'm like,
yeah, just black coffee, butlike I have to go use the
bathroom real quick. And you're likea black coffee and I'm like yes.
And then you're like, what sizedo you want? Like VENTI or like
whatever, and I'm like, Idon't know, large, and you're like
VENTI and I'm like, for God'ssakes, woman, is a large black

(31:26):
coffee. That's all I want rightnow. And like by the time I
came back, the order was alreadydone. But I was just like,
I don't know what kind of stuff. I'm not a Starbucks guy. That
was probably my second time in mylife ever in a Starbucks, and I
was just like, good God,just give me a black coffee. Like
that's it. You shot the briestof behind the counter to She's probably like,

(31:48):
what's that well made one? Theone employee was laughing because I was
like I was sitting here telling herthat and he's just like laughing. He's
some teenage kid man, he's justcracking up. And I was like,
for God's sakes, man, Ijust want a black coffee. My drink

(32:09):
is so complicated, Okay, somine, Yeah, you have to tell
listeners what your drink. I know, I don't even know what it is.
It's it has like five different namesto it. So I get a
vente ice, skinny carmel, macchiato, always sewing milk. I don't it's

(32:32):
not complicated. It's pretty complicated.And it was funny because when we got
back to the Prosecutor's office, wewere talking to the ladies who were working
there, and uh, do youguys find your coffee? And it's like,
yeah, I found mine. Iwas like, I don't even know
what the hell she ordered. Andthe one lady is just like, you
know what, I'm on the samepage as you, man, just give

(32:53):
me a black coffee. That's allI need. And I'm like, yeah,
that's pretty much where I'm at withit. And she goes, what
did she order? And I'm like, I don't even know, Like I
don't know what she ordered. Well, now you know, you can write
it up. Yeah, so manywords to remember from me. But yeah,
again, we drove a lot ofthese routes. Well, the main

(33:15):
thing is we drove the route hesupposedly walked, because last time we had
part of it right, but notall of it. So we drove that
whole thing and does with us.We did that, and then we waited
after dark and we went back outagain. Melissa wanted to walk, and
me and George. No, no, for your own safety. It's so
I can't even it's hard for meto even put it in worth how dangerous

(33:38):
I feel like it would be tobe on foot on these roads. I
didn't grow up there, I don'tlive there. And I posted the one
short one and we have more.But it's just like blackness, you know,
um. I mean I even struggleda couple of times driving and the
rental car we had didn't have tint, but it was like so hard to

(34:00):
see the upcoming curves even with headlights. It's so hard for me about how
a human being could walk that routewithout a light. I don't know that
she didn't have a flashlight on inoccasion where that she didn't, you know,
how do you find your way aroundthese hairpin turns and not fall off
the edge or but we've got fouror five segings of her, you know,

(34:22):
out on his road. So andI don't think there's any other woman
who happened to be walking out therethat same exact night at the same time
that match her description. So right, like Doug said, well, I
kind of got go with the beliefthat she did walk out there, right,
and everybody's lining up with that,you know what I mean. So
we have to we have to gowith that given how many people, and

(34:44):
that it's showing her progression that she'sgoing where Chris then picks her up,
Yeah, you know, depending onthat. So she did walk out there,
and so we have to go withthat, and so now we got
to the point with Chris picking herup up. But so we spent just
a kind of wrap up Sunday.So we spent all day with a Sunday

(35:05):
Doug as well, went to dinnerwith him, um, talked again,
strategized, talked about, you know, what he felt out at the farm,
all of these great things. Andthen Monday comes and we we woke
up early and we head to thestation because we had some interviews scheduled for
Monday already. So yeah, wehad Chris cut right. So the guy

(35:30):
that we talked about many times whosays he picked Judy up and dropped off
at the farm, and we hadCheryl, the sister of Judy, come
in as well. And those werethe two Monday right, yeah, and
Chris was scheduled for ten and weget a call from Doug that morning saying
Chris like all saying he was atthe emergy vent with his dog, and

(35:53):
so you and I were like andjustin too sorry but oh if three of
us like, well crap, thisis like this is the day to talk
to him? Are we not gonnahave the opportunity? But we went over
to the prosecutor's office anyways, andlike men earlier, I had asked for
a big map of you know,the area going basically from where Judy lived

(36:15):
all the way out to the flyfind these relevant roads there. And Doughead
had whoever his imagery guy print thismap verse which was amazing. I was
like, let just go buy onein Walmart if a map exists anymore,
but he had it printed. Itwas perfect. But we're kind of like,
well, this sucks because we hadto leave tomorrow. We really wanted
to talk to Chris in person,and so Doug ended up calling him back

(36:37):
and asking if he could come inthe afternoon because we could time afternoon,
and Chris agreed, I'll be awaitingfor Chris to come in. You and
just went out and talked to you. Found James, all right, so
me and that's right. So meand Justin knocked on a couple of doors.
We found the bartender at the what'sit called the Sundance I think sundowner

(37:00):
like that. I keep getting himconfused. I don't know why I keep
mixing up the name. Anyways,James was supposed to the bartender the night
that Judie went missing. We hadto want to talk to him, like
what were the regular hours of thebar and the procedures, and you know,
he was super nice. He cameright on a porn talk to us,
no problem, and but unfortunately it'sbeen fifteen years and that Wednesday night

(37:21):
was just another night basically, yeah, but he did say the owner of
the bar. The normal procedure wasthat James said to keep the bar open
Adam until ten pm every night,yep, right, and then like if
it was so it was slow,then he could close around ten or eleven,
but if it was like hoping andbusy, he said, sometimes I'd

(37:43):
stay up until three thirty. Youknow, of course we asked him what
time did you cause this particular night, and he doesn't know, Yeah,
and he was he was surprisingly cameright out and just started talking to us.
And you know, there were acouple couple little things, you know,
I wouldn't necessarily call him red flag, but there were a couple of
little things, you know, becausewe were like, oh, you know,

(38:04):
you know, Chris cut right,and he like pretended like he had
to think about it, you know, and it's like, bro, come
on, man, you know wealready know you can just tell us.
But he was pretty honest about hegoes at the he's like, the earliest
I would close through the week islike ten, and he goes, that's
from the bar owner. But ifsomething was going on, and he straight
up said, he goes, wehad something going on every single night in

(38:27):
that place, whether was this,that or the other. He goes,
So you just never knew, youknow, what time you're going to close,
and that for him to obviously notremember a random Wednesday night, you
know, that's understandable. I canI can totally understand that. But the
fact that the earliest they closed wasten also helped us because that kind of

(38:52):
narrows down our window of missing timefrom a Chris cut right to Judy.
So I mean he help us outa little bit. He did not one
detail is very important, yep.Right, a phone call, so you
guys, you didn't get to talkto him or about you know, knowing
Chris or Chris dating his sister,or you know his reason for blocking about

(39:15):
the case. Did he mention anythingabout shooting? No, I mean we
asked what he remembered, and hehad some big memories of yeah, and
He's like, can you show mea picture? And I'm like, dude,
she was not in your bar.And I showed him a picture and
everything like that, and he goes, yeah, it doesn't ring any bells.
And I'm like, yeah, becauseshe was not in your bar.
Dude, Like, we just wantto know what time you closed that night,

(39:37):
you know, give us some information. But Christ his sister, So
yeah, yeah, for sure.And to be honest with you, I
didn't remember that detail. But Imean me and Jen maybe had I don't
know, under ten minutes because hehad gotten a phone call right there in
mid conversations, so he had totake the phone call and he left.

(39:59):
But he took the car, youknow, and he said we could well,
and he when he took a call, it was clear that he wanted
to continue talking to whoever it was. He said to me, can I
give you my number? Yea,he did, so, I mean that's
good. And he said he cancall me and what will Yeah? Yeah,
because there's definitely a lot more questionsyou need to be asked for them

(40:19):
to figure out where get more insight. But I get it. I mean
fifteen years ago, how do youremember what time? Yeah, So we
went, well, we want Weknocked on his door because he lives right
basically down the street from the bar, and suppose he was a patron that
night in the bar he wasn't home, left a note and a card and

(40:40):
he called me. Watch an hourlater or something. Yeah, oh,
you guys were out getting coffee.Yeah, we were getting coffee. But
you said he came back, sohe called. He called me back and
I talked to him for a fewminutes and he's super nice, and you
know, basically said I would Icould tell you something. I'd be awful,
but I just don't remember. Hegoes, Yep, I would go
up all the time because it couldliterally walk there home, no Dui,

(41:02):
but couldn't remember really anything. Well, Judy Case was recognizable to him,
that's about it. Couldn't really rememberany details of it. So very nice
guy. And sometimes the thought happens. You know, you make a lot
of phone calls and talk to alot of people. Not everybody has anything
it's going to be helpful, butyou got to try at least check off
the list. So I was gladthat he called back and we've talked to

(41:24):
him. His name was in thecase file, so I think that's one
of the ones we would to trackdown to find out he was. He
in the bar with Judy in themar what time in the bar? Close?
He was at No. One besidesthe Barton right James. So it
was another opportunity to reach out andso I'm glad that we were able to
connect with them. And that's justanother another avenue that we did the like

(41:47):
work to find him. Yeah,and again for listeners, if any of
you used to frequent this bar backin two night, just reach out to
us, like we're not gonna Iknow we kind of name names on this
podcast, but if you want yourname there, don't put it off.
But I'd love to talk to anybodythat you're frequent that bar that year.
Do you just never know what detailyou that's helpful, Anybody that's that's reached

(42:07):
out to us that says, hey, I want to be anonymous. We
have not ever put your information outthere or your name or anything. And
that's that's a luxury that you have, you know, so sure. But
yeah, so then Chris, youknow, we scheduled from that afternoon and
he came in and yeah, camein two hours early. Actually yeah,

(42:28):
yeah, yes he did. Hedidn't. It shocked us four And he
shows up at oh six, that'sright, And he came in at four.
Yeah, he came in at aboutfour. Expecting him at six was
actually works by what six o'clock cameout from our second Bradman interview. Doesn't
aer me too, you know.And me and Melissa were sitting here watching

(42:53):
this computer like the first forty eight, just hanging out and watching, you
know, and just why this wholething. And Melissa over here is about
ready to have a breakdown, andthere's a detective behind us who's watching it
too, and we're just texting stuffto Doug and Gen like we actually didn't

(43:14):
have that much to say to youguys, but there was I think one
thing that Melissa texted to both ofyou guys at the same time, and
Doug actually ended up asking it,but I don't know. It was it
was productive and it was very productive. It was extremely productive, and like
when I came home, people werelike, because I got friends and co
workers and even you know, thebartenders at the bar I go to that

(43:37):
are like invested in this now,you know, they're like, tell us
what happened? All I tell them. I was like, it was extremely
productive. We got a lot done. I said. Some of the results
were not what we expected, butthere's still good results. Because we can
exclude certain things, we can moveforward on other things. We have a

(43:59):
better understand standing of the Prosecutor's office, how they operate, how they work.
We know that Doug is like onehundred percent on board, and I
was like, it was a greattrip. Yeah, So Jen walk us
through. So we this is allkind of how we strategies and all the
hours we spent is with every singleperson that we've interviewed, so not just
for us, it was with youknow, all all of the people we

(44:22):
want to talk to is you know, who's the best person to go in
and who's the best person to talkand who you know, there's a lot
of strategy that goes to things likethis when you're looking at a cold case,
and you know, we thought thatJen would be the best person to
go and dog to, you know, to partner up together to ask Chris
questions. As many listeners know,there's a lot of things about Chris's story

(44:44):
that doesn't make sense. There's thingsthat have changed in his story, and
so we already we had questions.We knew what we wanted to get from
him, and Jen, do youwant to kind of dove too much into
it, but you want to knowhow that wasn't how w Yeah, this
is until like the good but forleuners who don't know I was arming our
intelligence. The basic premise account intelligenceis using humans for us to gather informission

(45:07):
about your enemy. So it's interviewing, interrogation heavy. It's also heavy language
analysis, non behavior stuff like that. And then I have a pretty depth
background on that. And then whenI was in Afghanistan for fourteen months,
I and again not egotistical, butI conducted the most interviews out of anybody

(45:28):
else in my position around the countryin that fourteen month time frame, and
that was over five hundred interviews ofinterrogations local nationals, and my team there
was responsible for being locals who wantedjobs on our base, and our job
was to make sure they weren't partof a terrorist organization or an insurgent.
And it wasn't just interviews. Wedid lie detective tests, other things I

(45:52):
just don't even to get into.It's just so you understand, like,
that's my background, is that kindof analysis. But it's nice when you
have a partner in the with you, like Doug, where he can be
questioning and I can be thinking andprocessing and looking ahead and how do we
get to this next topic? Stufflike yeah, And I'm not going to
go into our tradecraft. But wespent what it was two hours I think

(46:13):
with Chris, and honestly, wewalked out of here and we're like,
I mean, I felt way betterabout him, let's put that way.
He looked us in the eye,he had very very good nonverbal behavior.
He seemed to really be avoiding topics. He seemed willing to give us his
recollections as best he could. There'sa couple of things that we're pretty sure

(46:36):
he said that are not true,but they're personal things like the drinking issue,
and maybe he wasn't drinking that night, but he was taking something else
whatever, And we told him wedon't care about that. We absolutely do
not care if you had been drinkingand ivan or taking pills or whatever doesn't
matter. And it is really amoot point. But at the very end,
you know, Doug him right inthe eye, goes to ta other

(46:58):
and most people my experience to havea guilty conscience or something to hide.
First of all, they won't lookthe person back in the eye, but
they will usually say, how dareyou ask me that? How dare you
excuse me of that? Why wouldI do that? You know I absolutely
would never do that, And allhe said, he looked U right,
none, He goes no, andthen goes to harm her and he says

(47:22):
no. And that was big forme. That was really really big because
they've just seen so many interviews likeI just describe where they answer is something
very very different. Hey, thisis not hard science, it's very soft
science. But I have a lotof background on this, and that was
super super important to me, andI also liked when we brought up the

(47:43):
map and I said, there,you're still trying to understand Judy's exact exactly
where you picked this where you pickedher up. And I gave him sharpie
and like just put a mark onthe map where you picked her up.
And he was like, well,he's looking and he's squinting, like why
didn't ping my reading glasses? Anddoes like what do you want to borrow
mine? Just sort of humorous andChris is like, okay, you know

(48:07):
it was funny, but it's likethat could have given Chris an out right
there. Well I can't really seethe map, but he immediately took his
glasses put on and then he markedthe spot. I'm like, to me,
that is positive. Um, hewas engaged. He wasn't leaning back
with his own crust. I meanhe was forward on that table. Screwzing

(48:28):
that math us no, and sonobody can be clear at this point.
You know, like you just talkedabout the family. He moved them a
liit. But I feel much betterabout Chris after getting into talk to him
in person and like doing an indepth interview with him. The biggest issue
for me with him, it's notreally him, but it's the timeline is

(48:50):
based on the settings of Judy earlierin the evening, she was walking about
two point five miles an hour,and if she kept at that page,
she should have been to the farmby like time clock. But Chris is
insistent that it was around midnight hepicked her up. And I'm not pouring
the liar. He was very overand over and over and over again.

(49:10):
So the question now is, becausethis is a real possibility, that's something
did happen to June in those twohours that delayed her, and that he
really did pick her up at night, And so that's now I think one
key at that we all got tofocus on, right. And one of
the other things I think too,is because Chris has changed from midnight to

(49:31):
early. Like I know we mentionedthat in earlier episodes that he said he
the barley due to a tough mancontest. He wasn't midnight and he can
never give us a time, right, he says, I don't know,
I don't know, I don't remember. I don't remember, but I think
back you're talking fifty years ago,and I think he got his days mixed
up between Wednesday Friday. If yougo back to two thousand and eight,

(49:55):
which is the most accurate time ofa statement. He said midnight, So
I think let go with midnight andnot what he told me, as the
bar closed early. So that means, you know, if he left her
at midnight, then he should haveimmate. He should have already been at
the farm at that point. Andall the listeners, I'm not going to
tell exact details of my theory,but I said at the vand I said,

(50:19):
Chris, I'm gonna tell you mytheory. I go, I'm not
from here, so I don't knowthese roads and stuff, but I have
a theory. And I go,I'm gonna tell you my theory. Interfare,
I want you to tell me whatyou think. And I told him
my theory and he looked me right. And now the whole time listening,
I told him my theory and hegoes, that is impossible because I picked
her up and dropped her off atthe gate. Ye, I mean you

(50:42):
heard it. He was insistent throughthis foll interview. I mean we gave
him some outs that he could havetaken him, and he did not take
him. He continued to insist hepicked her up on Jericho Road, dropped
her off at the front gated farm, yep. And that's when Melissa had
her breakdown when when towards the endshe's like, I'm sorry, Melissa,

(51:07):
I love you to death, butthe look on your face was of sheer
disappointment. That was probably one ofthe most productive interviews of this entire case.
It was insanely productive, insanely productive, even Doug. Even Doug comes
out of there and he just hegrabbed the back of that chair and he
just looks down and he's like,I don't even know what to think right

(51:29):
now. Yeah, we're all inthe same boat. Man. This is
uh. I believed him, youknow, and I'm for the listeners,
I'm it's hard for me to believesomebody. I didn't even believe Doug before
I got there, you know whatI mean. So, like sitting there
watching this though it was he wasjust like Jen said, there were so

(51:50):
many outs he could have taken,and he was like, no, she
was perfectly fine when she got inat this time. I dropped her off
at the gage. He was perfectlyfine. Okay, man, like shit
over and over again. Yeah,yeah, so I think, you know,
for for us, you know,after fundily getting to do that because
Chris is always his name is atenmentioned in Judy's case, just because he

(52:14):
puts himself with her, because thelast person that we know of that has
seen her alive. And so forfourteen years, this weight and this cloud
has been over cut right over thiscase. And you know, we have
all always to look at the lastperson. Right, his story wasn't matching.
There was a lot of things inconsistencies, and I can tell you it

(52:35):
was finally we can finally say hewas actually interviewed fully for two hours straight.
Because the other interviews Chris has doneover the past, and he's done
polygraphs two of them. One ofthe interviews was thirty minutes, right,
So you're really not going to geta lot if it's thirty minutes. So
the fact that we were in therewith him and he didn't leave, he

(52:59):
didn't say I gotta go. Hesat there for the full two hours,
and I think that says a lotas well. And so of course once
you walk out of there, you'rethinking, now, what, right now,
where do we go with this?What does this look like? Not
saying he he just kind of movesdown the list. You know, no

(53:19):
one's clear until there isn't arrest.But where do we need to go because
clearly there wasn't anything that at thispoint that says that points for the Christ's
fraction. Well, and I thinkI think it's important for the listeners to
know. Like as soon as hesat down, he was told, you
are not obligated to be here.You can leave it anytime. And he
sat there for two hours until wewere done, and he did not leave.

(53:44):
And I the whole time I wastelling Melissa, I was like,
he's going to use a cop outand get out of here, and he
didn't. He sat there for twohours and just answered all the questions.
He drew a map, or hedrew on the map his route and where
he picked her up and everything.And it's he knew that he could leave
at any point in time, andhe didn't. He sat there for two

(54:04):
hours. Yeah, and he volunteeredto take a third polygraph. Yeah,
and he volunteered to drive Dug.He's like, he looks at Dug.
He goes, I'll go out thereright now and show you exactly the route
that I took. I'll show youwhere I picked her up. I show
I'll show He's like I will goright now, and Doug's like, no,
it's not you know, it's notnecessary at this point. But we've
already been out there. I wasblown away and I was like this dude

(54:25):
could literally get up and leave atany point in time. And he sat
there for two hours until we weredone. He volunteered for another polygraph.
He volunteered to take Doug out theroute that he took, and I was
blown away. Yeah. Yeah,it was a good overall out comments of
artillist to solve you know, andfigure out what happened to Judy and if

(54:47):
Chris isn't you know, responsible orhaving anything to do with it, then
we need to move on for anotherway. We can move on as if
we spent this time and really digin, which is what the family has
always wanted. Yeah. So youknow, we have a lot of other
leads that we are following up rightnow. Yeah right, you're not Yeah,

(55:10):
no, you're not clear because wehave a whole list of people,
and like at the end of theday, Doug is like, I will
pull this person, I will pullthat person. We're going to pull him
in for interviews because it's like wewere not doing tunnel vision on just one
person. We have a bunch ofother people that we're getting down to the
nitty gritty with. But I thoughtJoan brought up a really good point when

(55:34):
we were sitting there in the livingroom and you know, everybody is you
know, we told him the newsand Marvin was a little bit upset at
first, which is expected, andJoanes straight up had the best point.
She goes, if I spent fifteenyears accusing the wrong person of doing this,
she goes, I would not beokay with that. She goes,

(55:54):
we want the right person, Wewant to know the truth. And she
goes, and that's why, that'swhy I'm not mad about what you guys
told me today. And I wasjust like, woman, you are a
saint, okay right now? Wellright right? And I think the listeners
have to note. So you know, after after we men did Chris interview,

(56:19):
we were going to leave the nextday and we want to go talk
to the Pettis in person, right. We wanted to go sit down and
say, hey, we've been hereall we in the all the interviews that
we've done. We finally brought inChris right and had two hours with him,
and we wanted to go sit downand talk to them face to face
and share how that interview went,where things are and where we're going and
that and this isn't over. AndI will say this, I can totally

(56:45):
appreciate Doug. After we left onMonday or Sunday was it Monday, and
he was giving me a pet tidy. I left on Tuesday, No,
the day that we interviewed Chris.That was Monday, all right. So
on Monday, after we interviewed Chris, we I was riding with him again
he's so lucky and he actually justwas really giving me the pep talk.

(57:08):
He's like, it's fine, it'sfine. You know, we have other
things, the other leads. Youknow, this is this is not done.
And he's like, again you pickedthe most crazy case where, you
know, And so he was justgiven me that like, come on,
girl, we got this. AndI just can appreciate that he didn't say,
well, I did what you wanted. Now we're done, right,

(57:30):
Like he could have walked away andsaid you were focused or you guys were
all looking in destruction, that's notthere, so best to lucky you.
He very much was like, wegot this, We're going to go in
so I can appreciate his support.Well, I thought it was funny because
of he said something to you whilewe were sitting there and we walked out
of the office, and it's likewe were in the prosecutor's office for I

(57:53):
mean, I'm pretty sure a solideight hours and uh when we walked out
and he says to you, hegoes, well, what do you think
conductor of the cutright train? Andwe're just we're just walking and there's two
vehicles and there's four people, andDoug's like, well, somebody can ride
with me, and me and meand Jed already knew. It's like,

(58:15):
I'm Melissa's getting in that that oneyou're gonna be and Jenner getting in the
car. I know Melissa is gonnawant to Yeah. It was just it
was it was amusing, and Ihope I hope the listeners can appreciate some
of the lightheartedness of going out there, because there were some funny aspects of
it. You got at some pointyou have to, don't I don't think

(58:37):
listeners realize like when you're when you'reinvolved in something like this, and um,
like a lot of my friends atwork or like my personal friends are
like man, you know that ship'sgot to take a toll on you after
a while. And I'm like,you have no idea, you have no
idea. You're sitting here looking ata case that is no evidence, no

(58:58):
witnesses, no nothing. And andit's like, we're working directly with the
family and it's depressing. It's stressful. And I'll never say that, you
know, we experience any more ofthat than the family already has. I
will say that, you know,the family has been through the Ringer for
fifteen years and um, but uscoming in, I mean, we've been

(59:19):
invested in this since probably September,I want to say. And it's just
it's it's it takes a lot outof you. So when you have those
little moments that kind of make youlaugh for you know, light lighting up
the mood a little bit, it'slike you got to appreciate them when they
come, right, you know,you have, you'll lose your sanity otherwise,
oh yeah, to be able tolaugh at yeah. Well, and

(59:40):
we do a lot of that.And you know, I think what's great
is that we Doug is like usin that way, right, He's Stu
with me, buddy, So YadAYadA, I go the whole time with
them and talking everything. So whatI loved his I said him, well,
we're gonna go talk to the Pettyfamily tomorrow and talk them in person,

(01:00:00):
and like, well, I wantto come, and I was yeah,
I was trying to come out becauseI hope you were. This guy
has been with us for three fulldays, dinner every night, Lee tomorrow
is still at dinner last night,and I and it's not normal for the
detective to go meet with the familyat their home and give them any kind
of insight into what's going on.And I didn't want him to feel obligated,

(01:00:23):
remember, and then he calls meafter dinner. He's like, well,
I kind of feel like you don'twant me there, and I'm like,
no, that's not at all whatit is obligate, and she's so
sweet. He is sure. Heshowed up the next day to us.
He was before us time, he'searly, but yeah, what's so great

(01:00:43):
at it is we're talking and Isaid, well, we're going to go
and talk to them, and he'slike, well, I want to go.
I was like you do, andhe said yeah, he goes.
I want the family to know howmuch work you have all done, and
I want them to know that thisisn't the end. Still a lot more
work that we're doing, that you'redoing, and they hope they, you
know, can appreciate all the hoursand the time and all of that.

(01:01:05):
He goes, I want to bethere to support, you know, the
team and the family, and it'sjust really kind of and I'm I talk
a lot, but kind of speechless. Was like wow, And he showed
up and he's there as just annational layer for them to know that we're
all on the same age, we'reactually a team. And he didn't have

(01:01:27):
to show up and could have justmoved on and he didn't have to go.
And I think that goes back towhat I was saying a little bit
earlier about the fact that after thatweekend, I realized this guy is one
hundred percent on board with what we'redoing, and he wants to be there,
He wants to be involved, hewants our information, and he was

(01:01:49):
very complimentary again about the work thatwe've put in and the hours and stuff
like that. And it said alot about first of all, the Prosecutor's
office there in Wood County, andit also says a lot about Doug's character
as a person in general. Hecares, he truly does. And I
was very weary about that. AndI'll tell the listeners again, I don't
have the very best past and mywell be another episode. Just stare at

(01:02:16):
audio of the experience. Oh yeah, my experience with law enforcement growing up
was not a fun one. Okay. So the only time I even remotely
conversing with any kind of law enforcementis if I'm working a case with them.
It's like, and go past thethe alarms and Doug goes, they're

(01:02:39):
with me, Nick, I've neverhad that. I did too. I
didn't even tell Jen about that.Like we walked in and we're sitting there
and I'm like getting ready to getall the shit out of my pockets.
And I'm sorry about the cursing here, but I'm keeping it light. But
I'm getting ready to keep get allthis stuff out of my pockets and put
it in the little bowl, youknow, to go through the metal de

(01:03:00):
hector. And I'm still paranoid becauseI'm like, I'm gonna have to take
off my belt, I'm gonna haveto take off my shoes, like all
this stuff, and I'm freaking out, and uh, Doug's just like,
oh yeah, they were with me, and we just walked right around and
I looked at Melissa. I waslike, that is the first time in
my life that that has ever happened, like ever, and and she just

(01:03:21):
started laughing, and I was like, it's kind of cool being on the
other side of things right now.Usually when that happens, like in the
past, you know, I wasin handcuffs, you know, and I
was I was not allowed to goaround, you know. So it's like
we should have took in your photosso you could frame it first time,

(01:03:43):
I know. And it was funnybecause every time we'd walk out and walk
back in, the security guards like, oh yeah, just go, just
go, man, it's fine,And I'm like, God, this is
so awesome. This just so great. I know, right about dog for
a gun, but he didn't hegive you a pink handcuffs or something.

(01:04:05):
All through the league detective who hadpink handcuffs, I was like, WHOA,
can I have them? Can Ilook at those? And so she
took him out and I was like, oh my god, this is a
dream. Yeah. So that wasthat was interesting. So I think that's
pretty much our trip wrapped up.Right, and then we all we all
left on Tuesday. Yeah, Istayed a little bit longer than you guys

(01:04:28):
did. You guys took off andI hung out for about another hour or
so with the family and talked toMarvin and Kelly and Wanda and everybody out
there in the garage, and Imean we were having a good conversation,
and I mean Marvin and Kelly bothand Wanda even they were like, you
know, what is your honest opinionright now? And I told him and

(01:04:49):
I said, I'm sorry, I'mnot going to sugarcoat it, but here's
exactly what I think. And here'swhat I thought about the interview in the
time here that I spent. AndI love that family because they appreciate that.
You know, they don't they don'twant sugarcoated. They don't want to
tell them what they want to hear. They want honesty. And I mean

(01:05:11):
Kelly at one point was like,justin, you guys are here for the
truth, and we just want toknow what happened to Judy. And it's
whether it's what we want to hearor what we think might have happened,
that doesn't matter. It's we wantthe truth. And Jones said the same
thing, and it's like, that'sone of the ten million reasons I respect
them so much. And Marvin,I mean, he was a little he

(01:05:33):
was a little upset at first,you know, um, you know when
we were in the living room,but by the time it was all said
and done, he he was cool. He was cool. So yeah,
he gets he's just thinking about it. And I think the family, just
like us, had to process that, you know, because for fourteen years,
they're still frustrated and they're still stressedand they're still upset, Like there's

(01:05:56):
yeah, well, I think itwas in the very first interview we ever
did with the Patties, I said, listen, there's no such thing as
closure. You know. You mightget the answers and solve a case,
or you might get the truth andit not be a crime or whatever the
case is. But I was like, at the end of the day,
there's no such thing as closure,you know, because there's still that thing
missing, there's still that that holethere. So I don't know, they

(01:06:19):
were just very, very nice,and I think that was one of the
main things I was concerned about,is you just never know right when you
have your idea of kind of thistop person and then come back and talked
through it. You're kind of like, oh are they you know, how
are they going to take this?And they just want the same kind of
process that I feel like I wentthrough in the sense of Okay, that's

(01:06:42):
not kind of what the upcomber thoughts, right, but it's like that's kind
of where we're at now, andlike what's next. And I was really
worried about that because you know,wok care for them so much and you're
just trying to do your best.Que said John. It is good news.
I mean it's progress and yeah,and missus Petty was like, I
don't want the wrong person and Idon't know, but and Kelly said the

(01:07:04):
same thing. So that just reassuredus, like we're all still in this
together and on the right track,and so, you know, kind of
summing this up moving forward, Dougtold me in the car, weren't done.
We actually have quite a few ofother people that we are reaching out
to and talking that their names havecome up, and we just had to

(01:07:26):
talk to Chris so that we canmove him up or down, just like
an an investigation. And if wehad to move him down, then who's
up now, right, And sobecause his name was the front, we
had to interview him the way wedid first. That's what we're at right
now, Like all the law enforcementagencies out there that are like, oh
my gosh, we released the autopsyor the fire department record or the case

(01:07:50):
file. It's going to jeopardize thecase. Wull shit. Yeah, because
we have everything, literally everything thatdoes in this case, and miraculously it
hasn't been uppardised. Oh exactly.And I'm so sick and tired of hearing
that from these agencies. And Iget it on brand new hum I understood,

(01:08:10):
but when we're talking fifteen twenty fortyseven years, Yeah, I won't
name the case. Let people helpknow what they're doing. No, I
absolutely agree. And it's like that'swhy I thought so highly of Doug when
he straight up told us we don'thave the manpower in time to put into
this case like you guys have.And I was like, that takes a

(01:08:30):
lot to admit that. He wasjust very, very honest and open,
and that's kind of where I'm atwith it, Like Wood County is very
open to us. Yeah, theprosecutor too. He came right in there
and I asked him a few questionsand stuff and he was just being very

(01:08:51):
open and honest and he goes,here's Neil, like, even if you
guys get this, I still needthis to you know, even bring it
to to trial or anything. Andit's like that's the that's the stuff that
is invaluable, and that's it's likeokay, like we know what we need,
we know what we can't use allof this and again, just productive,

(01:09:14):
very informative weekend. Glad we're ableto raise more money for the reward
fund. Tyler. I didn't getto hang out with him at all,
unfortunately, but it was nice seeingthe Petties again and being able to be
in Parkersburg. My experiences there havealways been good, so you know,
I appreciate the community and the prosecutor'soffice and they're very highly thought of too,

(01:09:36):
Like I'm very highly thought of inhis office, and that you hired
dogged ye to me, that isthe top the bottle right of this should
go and that division. Yeah,so they're being proactive about a situation.
They're like, we have an opportunityto where four people can put all these

(01:09:57):
amount of hours into one single case. When we know we can't, and
they're just I think they're being veryprogressive and very proactive about the situation.
And like Doug said, this isthe first time anything like this has really
been a thing. You know.He's like, so we're He's on the
same page as us. It's like, we're getting into this for the first

(01:10:18):
time, and so are they.So you know, we both had our
reservations, but I think moving forward, even however long down the road,
I think it's going to be agreat partnership. And I was just happy
that it turned out that way.For sure. It's been awesome. Yeah,
definitely. Well, when you mentionedthe reward, reminded me that me

(01:10:40):
and George were doing our presentation atthe library, someone brought up the fact
there's like a sixty five thousand dollarsreward for information leading to the wresting conviction
of Gretchen Seller. Yeah, andours is only now seventy five. So
why would we think seventy five hundredbucks would do any good? And so
I explained to the audience, here'sa difference. So gretchens homicide is very

(01:11:02):
I'm assuming it's a homicide, veryvery new, and whoever killed her hasn't
said a word about it. Yep. In Judy's case, guarantee, whoever
is responsible for this, they mayhave not made a full confession to a
friend or family member, but they'vementioned it. They've done something weird.
There's some red flags, something towrite an indicator as to their involvement.

(01:11:23):
And so that's why a lower rewardfund may actually be more effective in Judy's
case than in Gretchens. And Ihate saying that about Gretchen's case. It's
just the reality. Yeah, becauseGretchen's case is in the media every day,
it's fresh that person knows like theyjust got to keep their top shut
for a while. But Judy's casethe opposite. No, I agree,

(01:11:45):
And I think the big thing aboutJudy's case as opposed to Gretchens is we
all strongly believe that more than oneperson is involved, yea. And unless
one person dies, somebody said something, somebody else something. We even talked
about that with the prosecutor and withDoug as well. I think we're all
on the same page about that.So, like you had said, it's

(01:12:10):
the reality of the situation, andwhat listeners need to realize is that every
single case is different. There isno two cases that are exactly the same,
so you have to approach them differentways, as seventy five hundred bucks
for a fifteen year old cold case. I mean, come on, you
know what, we don't even haveto be known. Yeah, exactly right.

(01:12:31):
And to keep in mind too thatand that's why I saying earlier you
can't compare duty in Gretchen's cases.And then also the reward fund like it's
any less. No, it's thatnowadays there's more media tension, there's more
going on that can help increase Gretchen'sreward fund. The Petty family got hardly
any coverage from around the world whenJudy went missing, right whereas Gretchen is

(01:12:56):
everywhere, and that's a you know, say that shouldn't be the case,
but Judy was not. So youknow, there's differences between now and two
thousand and eight, and that's justhow things are, unfortunately. But We've
worked our butt off to increase thereal fund and I'm very happy with that.
You know, for sure, Idon't care. It writes a lot

(01:13:17):
about the community too. Yes,Like I said, I was not there,
but I was like the fact thatthe community pulled together and I mean
we had what like maybe three weeksnotice, you know, maybe a month
or so, like not much atall, and it's like these people pulled
together. There were people there,that news was there. It says a
lot about the community and what theyeither thought of Judy or thought of you

(01:13:41):
know, Hey, you guys areout here trying to do this. Like
I think that's awesome. Let medonate one hundred bucks, you know,
or something like that, or twentybucks, and it's like, dude,
any amount helps. You could donateone penny. It all goes to the
reward fund. And it's like it'sthe thought that counts. And it said
a lot about Parkersburg. So II do got to give a huge shout
out to the community. Yeah,for sure, correctly if I'm wrong.

(01:14:03):
But didn't we talk with the prosecutorand Doug about if there's two people involved
and one comes forward, yes willbe taken it. We can't guarantee immunity.
I think you come forward and yourhonesty will most definitely be taken any
yes, and as long as youBut the fact that they were open to

(01:14:24):
that says a lot right there.It's says a lot because he's like dude,
if you guys have somebody who sawsomething and they were there, and
he goes, yeah, that's that'sa huge that's what we need. Yeah.
So yeah, if we gotta huntyou down, Doug's gotta come knock
on door and figure this out andput you in cuffs. You ain't getting
no deal, No, there's nodeal. They will throw the book at

(01:14:45):
you know. Yeah, just confestand go like tell your side of the
story or whatever, and like it'llbe it'll be a done deal. But
great, Yeah that helps. Mywhole mindset has changed on the Prosecutor's office
in Wood County, just after mypersonal experience with them that they don't get
a lot of credit either. Ithink because it's harder on the outside,

(01:15:09):
right, it's easier to kind ofpoint a finger. But all the work
that they're doing, I will sayin you know, Parkersburg and Doug and
the prosecuting attorney, they are reallydoing a lot of work that a lot
of people don't even know absolutely,and I think credits where credits due.
So yeah, So anyway, sothat's where we're at. I don't know

(01:15:30):
when our next episode is going tobe coming out right now, we're still
talking to people, interviewing people thattheir names have come up, our people
have given us information on So whenwe have an update, when we have
something that we want to put out, we'll come back on and record another
episode. Yeah, and just likewe told the family, it's like we're

(01:15:51):
not done or just it's like we'rekind of at a we're at a stagnant
point right now where we're acting moreinformation, collecting more information on people in
general, trying to go a littlebit different avenues. So we're not done,
we're not going anywhere. Still jointhe Facebook group, get involved in

(01:16:12):
the conversation. You can still hitus up on Facebook or whatever and give
us tips. Yeah, and I'mnot unfortunately, but the stuff that you
guys are moving forward on now,it does not something that you can publicize.
No, absolutely not. And thatcame from an anonymous tip, I
will say that. And when wetold Doug about it, he was very

(01:16:35):
interested and sure we had to sayand um, yeah, we don't want
to release any of this publicly atthis point because it's very very sensitive right
now. So yeah, we're stillmoving forward. We still got a lot
of stuff going on, but it'skind of quiet right now. Yeah,

(01:16:55):
we can't really says yeah, right, yeah, about yes, And I'm
also looking into we're talking about gettinga forensic TEXA or what is it called
Jenner forensic toxicologist toxicologists. See whyI cut that? Oh no, I'm
keeping that in. No forensic toxicologist. Yes, no, but you have

(01:17:20):
to say the whole sentence now,so Jessin can put it in. What
am I saying? Oh? Weyeah, yeah, we found a forensic
toxicologist who is going to help usout in analyzing the toxicology report from Judy's
livery and help us and Doug understandwhether it's worth submitting the liver tissue,

(01:17:42):
which they still have it is preserved, whether it's worth sumitting it to an
advanced toxicology lab for new testing.Yes, and so we're gonna have that
conversation with this person and then we'llsee how we move forward from that because
new testing might provide a more detailedlook at what was actually in her bloodstream
and organs. And that's one ofthe good things about these cases. And

(01:18:06):
like not to get off on aside note, but with the work that
I did in law in Oklahoma,that was one of the things the police
departments. A couple of them keptevidence because they knew that one day the
technology would catch up, even thoughthat it didn't at that point in time.
The technology is always evolving, it'salways developing, and that's the advantage

(01:18:30):
of keeping evidence or tissue samples likethis because we can do further tests and
we can find out more more detailedinformation, which is pretty important to us
right now for sure. And alsolooking at speaking to someone regarding who's an
expert, you know, maybe indiabetes or a tactor or nurse practitioner somebody
like that that can give us moreinsight into how diabetes can affect people depending

(01:18:56):
on what type you are. Andso we are doing all these kinds of
things in the background, but oncewe have something to share with you,
we'll definitely come back on and releasingus out on that absolutely all right,
thanks for having right, Thanks forthanks for joining us, Jen. I
know you're busy. I know you'rebusy today and made some time and I
appreciate it. Thanks for all yourhard workness case we're trying. Ye,

(01:19:19):
well, I'll have some more timeto get into Linda's case now. So,
oh, by the way, Jenn, why don't you tell the listeners
if they're into crime and ongoing investigationsand real time crowdsource and investigations, tell
them about Linda's case and where tofind you guys. Yeah, if you

(01:19:40):
like this format that justin Melissa usedon podcasts, which is not real time,
but it's as close as you canget. You can also tune into
a podcast called Break the Case.It's produced by one of my employers,
American Military University, but me andGeorge at up our University's cold case team,
and we are currently working on thecase of Linda Malcolm. Also,

(01:20:02):
Judy was murdered in two thousand andeight in Port Orchard, Washington, and
season three of Break the Case coversLinda's well our investigation into Linda's case exclusively,
and we just dropped episode one lastweek and we have a lot more
episodes coming. We also do likesocial media, just like Jess Melissa do

(01:20:23):
for Judy's case, and if youwant to for our progress, you can
join in our spook group for Linda, which is called un Solventer of Linda
Malcolm and we welcome anyone and everyoneto please join, give us your ideas,
your thoughts, fall along like ifyou have some expertise in a certain
area, please let us know becausethat's the beauty of groundsourcing. So absolutely
would love if you guys follow usto the more brains working on cases.

(01:20:45):
There's what about two and eighty thousandunsolved cases right now in the US alone.
I mean, there's a lot ofstuff going on out there, and
this is why we do two personteams and try to help each other out
and support each other. So yep, soon there'll be two hundred and eighty
six. That's what sucks every year, ye not about six thousand November.

(01:21:09):
I'm taking one down. We're gonnasolve Oh all right, because you said
two hundred and eighty six, I'mlike, you're gonna go out take six
thousand people. Oh my number didgo down. It was like, come
on back, bring it all back. You're tired, ain't you? Yeah?

(01:21:35):
All right, cut all that.I probably all right, see you
guys, kisses bye, thank you,