E13 - Diabetic Analysis and Toxicology Report

In this episode, Melissa and Justin are joined by Jen and Alan Haskins. They discuss information about the diabetic analysis and more about the toxicology report.

Episode Transcript

(00:05):
Here on the safe Haven Podcast.Any names mentioned should not be considered as
suspects unless officially stated as such bylaw enforcement. Any opinions during interviews on
this podcast or the opinions of theinterviewee and don't reflect the opinions of the
safe Haven Podcast or the AMU ColdCase Team. Everyone is innocent until proven

(00:25):
guilty in a court of law.Welcome to this episode of safe Haven,
the Unsolved Murder of Judith Petty andI am joined as always by Melissa and
we are also joined by Jen againas well as Alan Haskins. How is
everybody doing today right now? Wehad our Saint Patty's Day parade downtown yesterday,

(00:46):
so that probably says enough. That'swhy you didn't want to do this
early in the morning. You gotit, you wouldn't have wanted to be
here earlier. I'm trying to recover, understandable. Yeah. Anyways, Hi,
everybody, glad to be here,doing good, Glad to be here.
I'm eager to get down to thebrass tacks about this toxicology report and

(01:07):
stuff like that. So yeah,so let's talk about what this episode is.
I know in the last episode wementioned that we were going to kind
of take a break from recording justbecause we were looking too many different leads
and investigative avenues that we can pursue, and we actually have an update on
a few things last time, sowe wanted to get back on the airwaves

(01:29):
and just give everybody an update onsome things that we've been looking into and
have some better idea or information on. And so the reason why we have
Allen back with us. As youremember, he's ourson expert arsist arson which
one is at Allen, I'm notan arsonist, but I know a little
bit about it. I hope you'renot. He's our expert. Yeah right,

(01:55):
I always mess it up, andI'm glad everyone knows what I mean.
So let's just say, well,you have fire expert fire expert for
the listeners who may not know.Allen was our guest, you know,
in the beginning of our investigation.He was looking at the fire and trying
to help us determine about what thefire you know, set in regards to

(02:17):
Judy's case, and help us kindof determine the order of events. But
Alan has actually stayed on with usand has become really part of the team,
really helping us look more into allthe different avenues of rule what really
happened would be. So one ofthe questions that we've had is what,
if any role did Judy's diabetes payin her murder? And one of the

(02:42):
things that we couldn't figure out was, you know, is this something that
you know she had a diabetic episode? Then did the diabetes and her death
have any correlation one another? SoAlan reached out to his physician to ask
Sessions, and Alan, you wantto tell us a little bit about that
what you found out? He said, It's very possible. Honestly, he
said that. And you know,of course we got if you read into

(03:06):
the case and you know, youremember what we've talked about with the toxicology
import and stuff, is you know, it showed that they used deliver to
find all these things about her,you know, when there was no carbon
monoxide, there was no other firegases. He felt like that he was
pretty confident that there would be ifshe would have had like some kind of
an episode, there probably would havebeen evidence of it in the liver because

(03:29):
and he said that in My questionto him was, as well, would
there have been enough time, youknow, she would have had some kind
of a diabetic episode, what Ihave gotten to deliver in that amount of
time, And he said absolutely,He said it would have gotten there very
quickly. So what we're discovering isthere's probably some more things that we can
discover about the liver as well thatwe've just got to dive into a little

(03:52):
bit more. But he was prettyconfident that she possibly could have and I
don't know, we'll have to goback and check and look at things,
but it wasn't really on there.We don't know that they actually did do
a you know, check for anykind of diabetes problems or any kind of
an episode. So that's probably somethingwe need to look at. Did your

(04:13):
doctor say, is it possible thatshe had a diabetic episode of and then
could have just passed out and andthen died. Is that possible? I
would think so. I mean,she was on medicine for it, you
know, she could have had youknow, he kind of felt like she
probably could have, you know,so, but then we had the fire,
right right, you know, andthe end the fire. The fire

(04:35):
is I mean, we can comeup with all these different scenarios, but
then the fire, it's just oneof those things that we're gonna have to
really dive into and try to figureout how it actually started, because I
you know, I racked my braina million different ways trying to figure that
part of it out, you know, and it's it's really really difficult to

(04:55):
imagine how it could have started likeit did, especially it was two sets,
which some people think that it was, some people think that it wasn't.
So I don't know, We're gonnahave to do some more investigating on
that part of it too. Didhe have any kind of opinion that she
would have had an episode prior togetting to the farm, given her her

(05:17):
way to her statue and walking thirteenmiles, He of course it was just
speculation on his part, but hesaid that it would be very very possible
that she, you know, shecould have, especially walking that far,
she hadn't had, you know,anything to eat. You know, he
can your sugar can do two differentthings. It can go hyper or it

(05:38):
can go hypo, which hyper isyou know, getting high HIPOs when it
gets low. And if she hasn'thadn't had a whole lot to eat that
day or drink, and she walkedthat far, it's very good possibility that
she you know, she went onthe low side and could have you know,
gotten a week and gotten dizzy andpassed out. And you know we've

(06:00):
talked about before, you know,trying to explain the time difference from the
last time somebody's seen her and inthe distance over to where Chris Cutright picked
her up or says he picked herup at the timeframe there really doesn't make
a whole lot of sense unless shehad to stop and sit around for a
little bit somewhere. So you know, that's something else that we've got to
look into. One of the thingsI go over my head is that I

(06:26):
can see her diabetes coming into playduring her walk, in the sense of,
you know, she's two hundred andforty five pounds, she's out walking
very long though she most likely didn'thave any water or any food with her.
And I've talked to a couple ofpeople and my brother in law is
actually diabetic, and he was hererecently and he told me at one point

(06:49):
he walked three miles and he didn'thave any kind of water or drink and
he within three miles and he wasn'tHe's not overweight, you know, he's
good healthy Otherwise he became delirious andhe couldn't remember anything, and so he
says, oh, my goodness,there's no way she would have walked there

(07:10):
and not had any kind of sidefacts or symptoms because of the length of
walking, but also because she hadno way of getting any kind of insulin
or medicine. So to me,I feel like her diabetes played a role
in her travels. And the onlything I can come up with is that
when she first crossed the path ofthe people who offered to give her a

(07:32):
ride on Old Saint Mary's Pike andLaurel Creek and she declined it, I
don't feel like she was having anepisode at that point. She was still
fairly early in on her walk,so I feel like she felt she was
okay then as she continued to walk. I think it is possible that she
had to stop somewhere to kind ofmatch up with Chris's time of midnight.

(07:56):
But I think that's why when heshows up, she is stating to feel
the effects, and that could bewhy she decides to get in the car
with him, because she's starting tofeel not right and she knows she needs
to get to the farm sooner thanlater. Whereas earlier in the night she's
feeling kind of okay. So Ithink maybe that's why when I said,

(08:18):
well, she didn't talk very muchin the car with Chris, and my
brother in law said, there's noway of because she's in this state right
now where she doesn't know what's goingon. Yeah, probably pretty confused,
so she wouldn't be talking a lot. And that made a lot of sense
to him. So I said,interesting, and he said, well,

(08:39):
that short ride could even her enoughof energy to then get up that driveway
because she'd had time to sit andthen get up that driveway. So for
me, I'm like, I thinkher diabetes played a role into her route
and why she got in a carwith Chris, maybe why she didn't talk
a lot. But then we getto now she's at the farm, what

(09:01):
happens and how does the fire startand how does she end up dead?
You bring up a good point thereabout her actions when she gets in the
car and out of the car andall that. I know. I teach
her at a fire academy, butI've helped in our police academy as well
up here, and one of thethings that we try to teach the police
officers a lot of times on thetraffic stop or something like that. You

(09:22):
know, if they get on anaccident and somebody is showing signs of being
intoxicated, sometimes they're not that way. Sometimes they're showing you know, that's
a diabetic episode where they act intoxicated. And there have actually been instances where
people have been arrested and throwed arounda little bit to the police officers figured

(09:43):
out that that's what was actually goingon with them and they weren't really drinking
or anything. So I definitely absolutelydon't want to rule out the possibility that
she had some kind of episode becauseI think it's I think it's very plausible.
I'll feel like that episode has anythingto do with her death. Would
anyone else think that? I can't. I mean, like Allen said,

(10:05):
I could roll it out. Ithink it definitely has to be considered.
I mean, the timeline is anissue. We keep going back to that,
like where did these couple of hoursgo? What was she doing?
What was it? The last sightingwas like eight thirty and then Chris is
saying midnight, but she should havebeen well past the spot he picked her
up by like ten pm, Soyou know, if his recollections correct,
then we have to try to figureout what happened in those couple hours,

(10:28):
what delayed her. It could beshe was definitely slowing down, and we
did more time to walk because shewas making pretty good pace. And then
I think, you know, weknow she wasn't feeling well that day,
right, so we know that shewas sick. Earlier in that day she
went and got some seven out ofthe store. So already physically she's not

(10:50):
well. There's something going on withher physically and that we just don't have
more information on. And then youyou know, on top of that,
you have the diabetes, and ontop of that you have her walking you
know, twelve miles. So Ithink all of that put together shows that
there was something more going on withher that she just it was kind of
too late by the time it hither, and she got up to the

(11:13):
farm and probably was looking for somethingto drink, somewhere to sit. I
would think you could have gone inthe house. Yeah, that's the mystery.
How does she end up in thiscellar? It just I don't think
any of us have come up withany really great scenario. Why wouldn't she
be in the house. That's onething that keeps you know that, and
in time that that fact into whereinto the fire, how did it start,

(11:37):
how did it get to where it'sat, you know, and so
on and so forth. The accidentalthing, we got to play it.
We gotta, you know, wegotta look at it, but I mean,
we gotta look at all sides ofit at this point. But I
don't know. It's just hard forme to fathom accidentally two fires if it
was too And like I've stated before, I mean I looked at it and

(11:58):
looked at it and that several times. I still kind of get the feeling
that it might have been just onefire and spread from one structure to the
other. But there's there's evidence thatit could avid and there's evidence that they
couldn't have. So that's something thatwe got to look at as well.
Right, And I think this,and I wanted you to come back on

(12:18):
and talk about this, is becausewe were trying to find a doctor,
a physician, somebody who could answerthe questions regarding her diabetes and is that
a factor here? And based onwhat your said that, yeah, she
probably had some kind of episode.Did he say, Allen correct me?
If I'm wrong that he didn't feelthat it would have been to the extreme

(12:41):
of her getting into some kind ofbad situation. Yeah, he didn't think
so, because he he said thatif it was that and that's what she
died from and the fire started,because I say, she passed out and
had some kind of lantern or candleor something, you know, and it
started the fire that way, Hesaid that there, he said, definitely,

(13:05):
there would still be the fire gasesand her lungs, and I mean
in her liver of course, andher lungs, but we couldn't find those,
you know, they got livers.He said, it definitely would have
been there. He thought, hefelt like honestly, he said, I
feel like you're on the right trackthat it was she died before the fire
started, you know, And thatseems to be the consensus amongst other folks

(13:26):
that we've talked to, you know, that have degrees and that kind of
stuff, and they seem to thinkthe same way he does. So I
don't know. It's it's really tough. I mean, it's really really tough
being fourteen fifteen years out from thisand not I don't want to sit here
and start pointing fingers and saying thisperson's wrong and that person's wrong, and
what they've done was wrong. ButI mean, we can all probably come

(13:50):
to consensus that there probably was somemistakes made at the time, But I
don't know that it was intentional.I think it was done because of maybe
the technology that they had at thetime. You know, I don't know.
I don't know. I just thinkit they we're on the right track,
and we need to be looking atstuff a whole lot harder than maybe
they did back then. I guessto say, I don't know that makes

(14:13):
sense. I mean, I don'tmean, like I said, I don't
mean to say anybody's wrong or anythinglike that. But did your position get
into it all? Like? Whatwould happen if someone experiences this diabetic episode
and then ultimately causes their death?Like how long? Because there's such a
thing as a diabetic coma, right, I guess you'd go right first.
I wonder how long it would taketo actually pass away if you had no

(14:35):
medical help that I don't know.I can I can probably talk to some
of my people, paramedic friends andothers that I've got that I'm pretty friends,
pretty good friends with, and probablyfind that out, but I don't
know, I don't. Yeah,it just came to mind, so I
know, we didn't discuss that before. Yeah, that's a good question.
Yeah, because I believe it wouldbe she would have had smoke in her

(14:56):
lung, So I don't think it'sinstant, no, And that's that's kind
of the what That's kind of whathe my physician whenever I talked to him.
That's kind of the way he insinuatedthat it would not be instant Like
you know, we tried to youknow, we we've mulled over the suicide
thing. You know, there wasn'tno gun shot residue anywhere, you know,
as far as lad smear or bulletsmear or anything on any of the

(15:16):
bonds fragments that they found. Sothat's the only thing that I could think
of. It would have been instantaneousas far as suicide would be a you
know, a gun shot, sodefinitely, you know, dying of natural
causes like that from you know,a diabetes attack would probably well, I
know it would you know, you'dhave those those fire gases and stuff in

(15:37):
the system. Yeah, that's whatI figured too. Just curious. Yeah,
So I mean we wanted to bringthat to the listeners just to say
we are exploring that avenue as well, because I know that was a question
many people had that are currently youknow, working on the case. But
so our lists to wondering if herdiabetes and any kind of confusion would have

(16:00):
led to dental depth, and sowe just wanted to say we've reached and
Alan spoke to his position, andthis is kind of more information on that.
We feel like it's unlikely, butsomething to keep in mind that you
know, she did have an episodewhich then resulted in her death. I
think she did, but I don'tfeel like it goes hand in hand.

(16:22):
Yes, kind of add to whatyou were saying and what we were saying.
You know, we we kind ofget hung up on the carbon monoxide
part of this, but there's literallyhundreds of other fire gases that are in
a structure firelock that that could befound in the in the same system,
I mean, in the same manner. You know, you got just different.

(16:42):
You know, there's there's literally literallyhundreds of them that you can find
A hydrogen synides one of them,and that's what they use, you know,
in the gas chamber when they whenthey execute, you know, folks,
criminals, so you know, andthey didn't find any of that,
so I'm still leaning towards she hadto have been dead before the fire started.
Yeah, and whether it's accidental,whether it's you know, whatever,

(17:06):
then we still got to go backto the fact of how did this fire
start? How did you know?I don't know, and that's it's really
really perplexing. Yeah, and we'reactually gonna talk a little bit about but
I think that's a good one.I was gonna say, we're gonna talk
a little bit about one of ourupcoming efforts to actually determine where the fire
started. So but I'm getting aheadof ourselves. But no, but I

(17:29):
think that's good because I didn't knowand I didn't think about that. There
are other things that would have beentested to show if she was yeah the
fire or not, and not barbonmonoxide. So thank you for bringing that
up, because I was just focusedon the carbon monoxide. And so,
yeah, that showed up at thatwho you're saying have showed up as well?
Oh yeah, that would for sure. I can't think of you know,

(17:52):
different ones for sure. The hydrogensynides one of the other big ones
that they test for and I meanit's it's caused by like star fire homes
and plastics, carpets, things likethat. And in the photos and the
crime scene photos that we're looking at, there's a mattress land right there here
are you know, mattress springs andstuff. And with it being a storage
building, there's no telling what Iwas down there. So you know,

(18:17):
you got other gases that are justyou know, being produced, and I
can get you a list of allof them you know that would be there
and you know, show you guys. But uh, they didn't find anything.
They didn't even find carbon monoxide.So you know, I just I
don't know, it's just hard forme, too hard for me to come
up with the accidental reason for thisthat unless you know, like you said,

(18:41):
she had some kind of episode andfell over whatever um and had a
candle or some you know, somekind of lantern or something like that that
would have started the fire. Youknow, even some flashlots sure can start
fires. So she still yeah,she starts a quick breathing though before rot
that really spreads rot, you know, And I don't know, it's just

(19:03):
it's really it's really hard to figure. Yeah, going onto you know,
our next thing or thing that we'retrying to figure out is looking at her
liver and about the carbon axide liveror levels. Excuse me, that we're
found in her liver and really whatthat actually means. And so we did
hold of a toxicologist and she hasa forensic science degree, and so we

(19:30):
got on a zoom with her andJohn and I just kind of basically asked
her, you know, can youdetect sugar levels, you know, in
the liver? Should we retest thelar tissue? What can we kind of
get from that? And so,based on you know, our conversation with
her, one of the things thatwe're still trying to figure out that nobody
really knows the answer to is oursugar levels fond in the liver. So

(19:53):
we've asked me people that and peopleare like, I don't think so,
but I'm not sure. And cometo find out like, no, but
he likes the liver. I didn'tknow that. Yeah, except for maybe
Justin. Justin's not the liver.But it's not funny. But she goes,
yeah, we don't. We don'tlook at livers or something like that.
Yeah, She's like, that's notthe organ. We usually use to
test, but she understood that's allwe had in Judy's case. Yeah,

(20:17):
and Alan had that good point earlierabout any kind of anything found in the
I mean everything's broken down there,so I don't know, it's it's what
we got, and it's it's prettyuseful piece of information. I think great.
Know what she was saying is thatthe liver is one of the you
know, organs that nobody really likesto test. They're not fans of it.

(20:38):
Some labs even refused to even testlivers anymore because they are just not
just um, they're very sensitive.I guess you will. So said that,
you know, one of the thingsthat they look at is, you
know, how much of a liverdo you have? But that also they
need to be really, really rich, and she used the word juicy.

(20:59):
I know that sounds kind of gross, but juicy like red blood cells.
And so one of the questions thatwe had was, well, duty livers
birds, I mean charred on theoutside, So would there be any of
these red bloods inside of that?And so it depends on how much of
that liver was burt in. Butshe did say that since we were able

(21:21):
to get some results back showing thather corn mon accident levels were within normal
range. That there was there musthave been enough of these red blood cells
within the livers that, right,Jen, Yeah, that's basically what she
said. She said, they obviouslygot some results and so there must have
been enough quality liver tissue for themto test, and so she felt pretty

(21:45):
confident about that. And I thinkif I remember right, she was you
kind of said it, but shewas saying, like, they don't prefer
the liver because it's not all ofit's rich in red blood cells, and
it's just not as quality of humantissue or human organ tissue as compared to
other until that's why they don't,right, you know, that's not the
preferred organ to test. Ellen,what were you going to say? I'm

(22:06):
sorry, that's I mean, it'spretty much adjusting said in a while ago.
Kind of I've had people that weregood friends of mine that you know,
were paramedic instructors, were I've heardthem talk in their classes about,
you know, saying that deliver youcan look at it like as an old
filter in a car. I mean, everything goes there and that's where it's
filtered out of the system and theblood and stuff that, so everything,

(22:29):
every toxin that we have is goingto end up in the liver and then
it goes into you know, it'sbroken down and then goes on out the
system. But it's just going tobe a catch all pretty much for everything
that's in your system. One ofthe other questions we had was how much
of a liver you need, ifyou will, to be able to get
a good sample, because I wasconcerned that number one, how much of

(22:52):
the liver was recovered, but alsothen how much was able to be tested
based on how hard the liver wasregarding to getting enough red cells. And
what he said was that most labsrequire at least ten grams of the liver
tissue to be tested. And Judy, how she had her liver was all

(23:12):
there wasn't an Allen like that.It was a pretty big piece. Chief
Well. I talked to Hartley,the yeah, the fire marshal that and
done the investigation on it for thestate. And that was one of the
questions that I specifically asked him washow much liver did you actually get?
And he said, well, hesaid, if you can imagine, you

(23:33):
know, as far as look,you know, size wise, he said
it was between the size of aof a of a baseball and a softball.
So I mean that's that's not abit yeah, So you know,
and like you were saying a whileago, with it being charred and burned
like it was on the outside,down deep inside, it's probably still going
to have, like you said,juicy enough to to get that stuff from
it. So I feel like theyprobably had enough now, like I said

(23:56):
a while ago, the technology backthen versus now, who knows, we
might be able to, you know, to get it tested again if there's
still some around, and you know, we might come up with some more
stuff. You know. I don'tknow, yeah, And I asked her
like she told us, because I'ma person who is very visual, so
to me, I don't know whatten grams is or looks like. And

(24:18):
so she said that it's kind oflike the size of like a chicken nugget.
I can get that. So Isaid, okay, I know that
there was more than that based onthe photos. So I was more confident
that we had enough. It wasjust did we have enough red blue cells
within that, which she said toget that three percent range and to also
be able to detect the depression medication, there was enough liver to run these

(24:45):
tests because one of our concerns wasis this even Judy's liver? Right,
because we know that there is concernswith the Medical Examiner's office back then Judy's
remains were mixed up with the twoyoung girls. So the question was that
I was afraid of, is howdo we even know this is Judy's liver?
How confident are we that this isJudy's liver? And based on the

(25:08):
depression medications found in Judy's system inher liver, I tend to believe more
that this was Judy's liver because theyoung girls. It's really rare for young
girls to be on such depression medicationsat their age and the levels you know,
they were within range. But I'mmore confident that this actually Judy's liver.

(25:30):
And actually, on that note,I reached out to a woman who's
helped us on another case. Hername's Francine Bardol. She's like one of
the cutting edge DNA extraction experts inour country. She's amazing. Anyways,
I asked her, my understanding isthey do still have Judy's liver example,
And so I asked Francine, like, can they get a DNA profile from

(25:52):
that liver tissue to confirm its Judy'sif they wanted to do that, and
Francine said yes, So like youwere saying, I know that that needs
to be done because I think we'repretty confident it's Duty's liver, but it
is a possibility, like if theyjust want to make sure, they could
extract and get a DNA profile fromthat liver tissue. And so we do
have some tissue laughs. So theydid a cartridgen of tissue of her liver

(26:18):
tissues, so we do have thatstill in play. But when we asked
her, would there be a benefitin retesting the liver or what we have
of these samples now compared to twothousand, you know eight, and she
kind of said, I think you'vegot what you got. I don't think
you're gonna get anymore because it didpick up these different because we know that

(26:41):
there was no illicit drugs in hersystem. We know that you know her
see her cut memberox side levels.She said, I think you've got what
you've got, and that's probably thebest you're going to get because of time
as well, in the liver decompensatesvery quickly and that's why a lot of
people do not use the liver anymorebecause it does DT very quickly over time.

(27:03):
So, you know, we kindof are stuck with I think we
are at where we're at with theliver. In regards to further testing,
she did say she felt they dida wide range of testing. We read
her the toxicology report and she goes, oh, yeah, they tested for
all all the major illegal drugs,they tested for alcohol, they tested for
prescription med like. She said,they did a wide range of tests,

(27:26):
which made her feel pretty confident inthe results. But what we were asking
her is, you know, thisrelates to Judy possibly having a diabetic episode,
and we were curious, could thisliver tissue today show what her sugar
levels were at at the time ofher death, and the toxicologists didn't think
that was possible, but she broughtup that they might be able to detect

(27:48):
the level of keytones and that couldbe an indicator as to whether Judy was
in the midst of like a medicalcrisis at the time of her death,
And so she did that's one thingthey could retest for now. Basically,
like the keytones are, what's atype of chemical that the liver produces when

(28:10):
it breaks down fats, and sowhen your body's like going into overdrive,
like some people want to go intokeytosis for fitness reasons and to lose weight.
In diabetics, it's not healthy atall, it's dangerous. But anyways,
you use keytones for energy when yourbody is like getting into starvation mode,
and so that level of keytones willgo up. So if Judy's sugar

(28:33):
level was down or she was experiencingsome kind of sugar level crisis, her
keytone level would be elevated and theymight be able to detect that level of
keytones. Now with new testing ofthat liver tissue, hopefully that makes sense.
No, absolutely makes sense. Sothat's one of the things we are
wondering, is that something we couldlook at to determine. And I think

(28:56):
her concern was how it's been storedall these years? Yeah, because you
can purser obviously, you can preservehuman tissue for a long time, but
at some point, like you said, things deteriorate and it depends what it's
been stored in and you know,the proper temperatures and stuff like that,
and those are questions that I don't. I don't know where Judy's liver tissues
stored at right now, probably theirforensic lab or whatever, but they would

(29:18):
have to take a look at itand see what condition it's in, right
because she was worried that back thenthey probably stored it in from ildehyde,
which would not be good. Yeah, she said, So those are some
of the things that we're looking into, and people we've talked to experts in
the field to try to help usin this investigation as we keep going in.

(29:40):
Some of the things that we're lookinginto right now. Is Jed mentioned
earlier that we are hoping to xdebate or I don't even know if that's
the right word, but we're hopingto take a section of the cement,
the concrete where Judy's body was found, to determine if laurance are there,
and Alan, do you want toexplain a little bit more about that that

(30:03):
we're trying in regards to if Excellancereport on Judy, how that would still
be there in the cement if therewere accelerants poured on her body, which
if she was placed there if thiswas an arson case, most likely that's
what the arsonist would have done.Was poured it on her. Because whenever
an arsonist in that situation, wheneverthey're trying to get rid of something,

(30:26):
they're trying to get rid of thatevidence. That's what they're going to concentrate
on. So what would have happenedwith concrete being as poor as it is
and that old of a concrete isthat that seller was made out of us,
it's been there for a while.It would have absorbed that concrete.
And my question is is would there'sstill be traces of those hydrocarbons and that

(30:48):
stuff in that concrete. So whatwe're hoping to do is find a lab
that can test that force, andwe're going to take probably three to four
samples from different areas there, andwe want to take a control sample that
we're pretty confident doesn't have the concreteor the hydrocarbons and stuff in it and
get them tested just to see andto see if if it's if it's actually

(31:11):
there right. And so we didtalk to the Petty family and they have
agreed, of course one hundred percentto allow us back onto the property to
take these samples because they're obviously stillwanting answers after fifteen years. And I
think this is just another great ideathe team has come up with. You
know, we've been talking with Dougabout this as well, who's on board,

(31:33):
and looking at how we can getthese samples, and I think were
is there a shot out? Weneed a lab who will test this,
right John, Yeah, I've contacteda couple of labs this week and talk
to them. I was googling forensicchemistry labs because I think that would be
the most appropriate field of forensics totest for accelerance. And I did contact

(31:55):
a couple of labs and talk tothem, but neither of them do this
type of testing. So we arestill searching for the right forensics lab that
can help us out on this.But once we find one, discuss price
and all that stuff and how howwe can get this paid for and everything.
Doug is more than happy to goout and extract those concrete samples and
send them in. And I wantto say, I would say, obviously,

(32:19):
if they find traces of accelrat,then to me, that's for me
that closes the book on accident orsuicide and that this is a homicide,
because I can't come up with anylegitimate reason why Judy would pour gasoline in
the cellar and light of fire.So that's why this is this could be
a super important test for narrowing downthe manner of death exactly. And I
think I was exactly going to gothere too, Jen and explain why we

(32:42):
were looking at this for people whoare like, well, why are they
trying to figure that out? Soone of the hiccups still is we need
determination, right, you know,we feel like this leans more too,
as we mentioned in all the otherepisode a homicide. But one of the
things that's really going to help,you know, steer us in either direction
is if there was accelerants poured rightwhere Judy's body was, but then maybe

(33:05):
not on the other end of theseller, right. And so this was
huge, a huge breakthrough of ideaswhen you have so many great team members
together coming together to say, hey, what about this. We're willing to
do that. And so John,what's the name of the test that we
need done? In case anybody ofour listeners knows a lab? What specific

(33:27):
tests are we looking for for Alan? Alan? What tests are we looking
for? It's just it's just aforensic chemistry task on you searching for hydrocarbons?
Are searching for you know, anykind of chemical. I mean,
it might not have been gasoline,carosene, water fluid, alcohol, paint
thinner, you know, anything likethat that they could have used. That's

(33:49):
that is a flammable liquid that wouldhave started to fire. Most likely it's
gonna be gasoline, but right,you know that's most common. But uh,
you know, we could, wecould. We'll have to look for
anything to see if there's any evidenceof that there. I think what I
need is a lab that specializes ingas with the word of autology, yes,

(34:12):
thank you, where it can breakdown. You guys have to forgive
me because I failed chemistry literally inhigh school, so I'm not good at
this. It can break down whatis it the molecules or whatever of the
substance is, and then provide youknow, this readout of you know,
what's the most likely contributor what isthis compound made up of? What that
stuff. What it does is it'llactually break down all the difference. It

(34:34):
would It would basically identify everything that'sin there. Yes, yes, so
you know, and that's I meanto put in Layman's terms, that's basically
what it's going to do. Yeah, So if anybody has a suggestion of
a lab please please, or evenif you're not sure or you have an
idea, I just shoot Melissa orjust in a message that's exactly what I
want to do, and maybe evenmake a post asking for anybody. And

(34:55):
that's why I wanted to know exactlywhat we're looking for and ours to the
testing or a lab that could potentiallyhelp us. Because we're ready to go
right and so we have everything linedup. We just need to find a
lab. We have the family approval, we have Dug on board, we
have a plan. We just needto know a lab that's willing to do

(35:15):
it and then figure out what thecost would be or if they're willing to
provide this out of the kindness oftheir heart. Yeah. I've dealt with
many different types of labs and likeFrancine was one, you know where they've
they'll donate a certain number of hoursor cost to you know, a quest
like this, or you know,knowing that we're a volunteer team, self
funded, there are labs that willdo that, but that's not I mean,

(35:37):
that would be so nice, butthat's not our priority in finding a
lab. We just want to findthe right one first and then we'll worry
about the money aspect later. Absolutely, absolutely, this is like a game
changer, I think for Judy's caseif we can get this done, because
it really is going to tell usa lot, yeah either way, And
so we wanted to share that justbecause it's a shout out to anybody who

(35:59):
might know of lab that would beyou know, able to do this or
put us in connection with somebody andthe other thing that we are planning on
doing in a few weeks alan youwant to talk about our console just yeah.
Through some of my contacts, wereached out to some people that I
know in the ATFO, the Bureauof Alcohol to back on firearms, which

(36:22):
if a lot of people are notaware of what they do, they're probably
the leading investigative unit in the UnitedStates for arson and explosion investigations on top
of the other things that they do. But one of the things that they
have is a profiler unit within there. And I reached out to a friend
of mine that's an agent with ATFand he knew what I was looking for

(36:44):
and knew who to get a holdof, and he put me in touch
with this lady and we have setup a meeting here in a couple of
weeks with her, and she's goingto look into helping us come up with
a profile for who might have donethis and also for the reason that Judie
may have done everything that she did, So that's pretty exciting as well for
sure experts in that field, soI can't wait from them. Yeah,

(37:08):
yeah, And I think that again, these are connections we're making, and
people are helping us get connected withthe right people because it takes a whole
team to to work on a caselike this, and so we definitely are
putting our olive branches out and seeingwhat we can't figure out. And this
is one of the things we've beenwanting to is a profile on this fire.

(37:30):
But also you know, I'm interestedin a profile of and I don't
know if Alan, if they're ableto tell us this of maybe if we
are looking at a homicide, whattype of offender are we looking for based
on everything? You know? Yeah, and I think I really do think
that that's what one of the thingsthat she's going to look at and talk
to us about. And of courseshe needs, you know, she needs

(37:52):
background on the case. Let's youknow, that's that's why we're meeting with
her and to give her all thedetails in everything, so right, and
I do believe that that's what oneof the things that she will look at
is, you know, what typeof person would have done this, you
know, and those the profilers canactually kind of show different things as to

(38:12):
what was going through their mind atthe time, you know, and what
the action shows and you know,and that sort of thing. So I'm
pretty excited about it. I honestlythink we might help us get some leads
anyways on on this, Yes,I think so, I think, yeah,
for sure. Yeah, I thinkit's more than we've ever had,
right, And so we've all doneour investigative and we've looked everywhere, but

(38:34):
we are still, you know,constantly getting tips and following different leads or
people that we their names have comeup. But this is just another tool
in our toolbox to help us pointus in what direction we need to be
going. And I think it's areally exciting thing for Judy and the Petty
family to know that, you know, we're people are helping us, and

(38:58):
that's really good thing. So yeah, all right, So those are the
two big things that are happening ina safe haven world where looking at,
you know, testing some of theconcrete where Judy was found, and then
also talking with a profile or tohelp us understand more about the fire and
the actions of you know, Judy, and also who the offender if that's

(39:19):
what we're looking at, and that'sgoing to help you know, all of
this is going to lead us toyou know, hopefully the radi answer of
what happened. Yep. Then I'mjust going to remind listeners that there's seventy
five hundred dollars sitting out there.You know, someone knows something or saw
something or even if you don't thinkit's important reported anyways, that's where the
reward fund is at right now.And that's again tax free. You don't

(39:42):
have to go through any government agencyor whatever. We'll just write you a
check. So hopefully maybe that willbe an incentive to someone out there who
who has that critical piece of informationexactly, and there is just for listeners,
We're gonna there's some other social mediathings happening on Judy's case. People
have reached out to cover her case, So when that happens, we will

(40:02):
definitely share that because the more peoplewho hear about Judy the better and the
more contexts we make. And sothere are people who have found out through
safe Haven Judy's case, and there'squite a more of an interest and that's
only good to help move us forward. So thank you all for joining Alan,

(40:22):
thanks for joining us again, noproblem. And for anyone who knows,
Alan is a Cardinals fan, andme and Justin are cubs, so
we're a little iffy about them,but we'll keep them around for a little
bit. Cubs keep them around,so we suck all of his knowledge out
of his brain. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well you got to keep

(40:46):
remembering Mark McGuire hit sixty two beforeSosa did, so they were all juiced
up. Dude. Come on,still, even with the juice, you
still got it to have the handeye coordination to hit a ball with a
bat. So, I mean,there's bad. That's a long time ago,
Allen. You gotta gotta live inthe present. So okay, yet,

(41:14):
okay, how many Allens have yougot? How many World series record
winds have you got? Let's talkabout the most recent? Alright, one?
One? Is that what it is? All right? Well? You
more next time? All right,Well, thank you everyone for joining the
Sunday for sure. All Right,Bye bye guys. Yeah bye