E14 - Update Q&A

We have a bunch of new members in the group following the case, so we decided to do another Q&A episode. Melissa and Justin are joined by Alan Haskins to answer more questions.

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Here on the safe Haven Podcast.Any names mentioned should not be considered as
suspects unless officially stated as such bylaw enforcement. Any opinions during interviews on
this podcast or the opinions of theinterviewee and don't reflect the opinions of the
safe Haven Podcast or the AMU ColdCase Team. Everyone is innocent until proven

(00:21):
guilty in a court of law.And we are back. Welcome to this
episode of safe Haven the Unsolved Murderof Judith Petty and I am joined as
always by Melissa, and of coursewe have the special guest Allen on as
well, and I am also oneof your hosts, Justin, and we

(00:43):
wanted to do a Q and A. We have a lot of new listeners
in the group right now. There'sa lot of questions getting fired off.
It's hard for us to keep upon some of the questions. I do
want to give a shout out tosome of the other listeners and other members
of the group who have actually beenaddressing those questions for us, and that
is extremely helpful. We do appreciatethat me and Melissa were talking last week

(01:07):
or the week before and we saidwe should probably do an update Q and
A because of all the new people. Some of them have some of their
facts about the case skewed a littlebit. Some of them have a vague
understanding of certain aspects. So weall kind of figured this would be a
great idea. How you guys doingtoday, doing good, doing good.

(01:29):
It's been a minute. I've missedseeing everyone and their faces. Well,
I don't know, Alan has youknow, the Cardinals in the background,
So I was gonna say, I'man attractive guy, so I'm used to
hearing that. Alan, on theother hand, has this Cardinals thing in
the background, like as a greenscreen. And me and Melissa are both
Cubs fans. By the way,I was joking about the looks things.

(01:51):
Everybody got real quiet, serious,real quick. But Alan, Alan's screen
is atrocious. I didn't appreciate thatat all. Well I'm sorry, No,
you're not. I know you're sorrynow. So it's so good to
be back and being able to recordan episode and put something out for Judy

(02:14):
Petty. I know it's been ahot minute, but you know that doesn't
mean things are not happening on theyou know, behind the scenes. We
can say that there is something's goingon that we cannot talk about. It
is really good for Judy Petty andthe case, and it's the best shot
that we've had in fifteen years ofactually finding out what happened to Judy.

(02:37):
And it is a really exciting timefor our safe Haven and the Petty family
and hopefully, you know, wewill I'm confident we will find out something
in the next few months here.So in the meantime, we thought that
we would do, like Justin said, a Q and A episode, and
we have Alan on as always.He's our fire experts and I know that

(02:58):
there are so many people who havequestions about that fire, as we all
do, because it is so crucialto this case. So we wanted to
make sure that he was part ofthis episode so that he can answer those
questions. So what we thought we'ddo is we took all of your questions
that you had recently in the Facebookgroup and we went ahead and wrote them

(03:19):
all done, and we will doour best to answer them. And if
we don't know, we'll tell youwe don't know, or if we tell
you that we can't say, we'lltell you we can't say. But we
will definitely answer to the best ofour ability. We thank you for posting
these questions, so we'll just getright into it as there are quite a
few of them. So one ofthe first questions I'll just kind of kick

(03:42):
it off is that one of themembers was asking, you know, when
was the last time that a familymember had gone to the farm before February
two thousand and eight, and wereally don't know. I mean, it's
been fifteen years. I've reviewed thecase file, and it's hard to say
when the last person was actually thereat the farm. But what we can

(04:03):
say with certainty is that it wasn'tabandoned, so it wasn't like a long
period of time where nobody was outthere. There were always family members going
out there at different periods of time, so it could have been you know,
the nieces, the nephews, youknow, Judy's sisters, Judy herself,
mister Petty. They were all kindof you know, going out there

(04:23):
at different points. So we reallycan't say two weeks before Judy was funded
the farm was the last time.That would be really hard to do fifteen
years back. So that is somethingthat we're just not able to give a
definite answer on. Would the bothof you agree or anything more to add
on that, one I personally wouldhave to agree with that. I mean,

(04:44):
it wasn't abandoned. They still hadpower going to the place. But
it is hard telling. I mean, it could have been a week,
could have been two days, couldhave been two months. But like you
had mentioned, there were constantly peoplealways going there. They had family members
hunting there, stuff like that,so there was always people around and going
there. Yeah, that's what Iwas going to say. I know a

(05:04):
lot of the family, you know, hunted that place and stuff, and
mister Petty did as well. SoI'm sure you know you're looking at probably
you know, most hunting seasons closeI'm not sure about West Virginia, but
most of them clothes, you know, right around Christmas time, so you
know, I know that's a coupleof months before, but I'd say that's
probably about about right. And misterPetty was somebody who was very is very

(05:29):
still to this day, very particularabout his farm and making sure that it
is as clean as it can be. Or there when we were there,
right a tree had fallen down.Mister Petty was out there that next day
cleaning the tree off the driveway.So it very much is still a property
that they maintain as much as possible. So so the next question is a

(05:50):
very good one, and it issomething that me and Allen had previously talked
about off record and on record aswell. It says, are there any
indications that a possible meth lab mayhave been in operation on the farm leading
up to the time of Judy's death? And that is a possibility. There

(06:10):
are no indications of that, butI want people to know that I saw
and I'm not picking on the personwho said this in the comment, but
I was scrolling through and I sawthe words breaking bad, and I would
need people to realize that making meth, even back in two thousand and eight,
is not like a TV show.You don't need this whole fancy operation

(06:31):
going on with fire and electricity andall this chemical suits. You can literally
make a meth lab with the rightmixture of chemicals in gatorade bottles stuffed into
a book bag. You do notneed power or fire or anything like that.
So it's a very good possibility.Absolutely. That is a personal theory

(06:55):
that I have had for a longtime, and Alan has also shared interest
in that topic as well. Beinga possibility, I'm gonna go ahead and
address this as well as a marijuanaoperation or weed operation would be the same
thing. Let's say you have indooroperations. It's either going to be hydroponic
or it's going to be a bunchof heat lamps going r hitting your plants.

(07:17):
Okay, in the same scenario isgoing to happen. There's going to
be a huge spike in the electricbill, somebody's gonna wonder what's going on.
Somebody's going to go out there.Now, if it was an outdoor
operation, that operation, if itwas big enough to literally kill somebody over
you're going to smell that for ahalf a mile away. You had family

(07:40):
constantly hunting on the property, includingmister Petty. They're going to see an
operation like that. Let alone smellit for however, you know, like
I said, half mile mile away, depending on what kind it is.
And given those facts right there,we also have to take into consideration.
In February, you're done plant wheatoutside. Usually by first frost in October,

(08:03):
everything's pulled, everything's done. Thenit goes to the indoor operation of
hanging and drying out and everything likethat. So is it plausible? Absolutely?
Yeah, I mean I agree onehundred and thousand percent because both operations
are gonna have their own characteristics thatare going to be very noticeable by the

(08:24):
general public. I mean, likeyou said, with a meth lab,
you can have that in a sodabottle, you know, in a book
bag or whatever. But if it'sa big operation like you know, like
you were saying on Breaking Bad,you know, there are some of those
out there. But man, you'retalking a lot of chemicals going up and
down that road or going in andout of that farm, and you would

(08:45):
have had a road beat out somewherecoming in and out of their well.
An you want to take the nextone here, The question is is do
we have a timeline as when thefires had started? Yeah. I had
somebody on the on the Facebook groupasked me that particular question again the other
day, and it's kind of aand I told them, you know,
and they said, would it feedup or would it go faster with the

(09:07):
accelerant? You know what people needto need to understand about the accelerant being
poured. It's not necessarily going tocause the house to burn down faster.
It's going to cause the fire toget started faster, you know. To
get the other fuels that are thereinvolved. And when I say fuels,
I'm not talking gasoline or they soI'm talking couches, furniture, carpet,

(09:31):
the building itself. You know,we talk about fuel package that that you
know that's in Lenda's case. Weknow that's another instance where there was a
lot of a heavy fuel load insidethat house, and so that that's where
kind of where that would go,but not not so much. It's not
going to speed the whole structure upthat much and burning to the ground.

(09:54):
So that being said, I stillbelieve and going to stick to my guns
about you know, you're if shewas seen, if Chris's story is right,
and he picks her up at midnightand he drops her off at the
gate, probably at ten or twelve, twelve fifteen, somewhere around in there,
and it takes her, however longto walk up that drive. I'm

(10:16):
still thinking you're looking at two tothirtysh maybe, because when mister Petty gets
there at seven thirty eight o'clock thenext morning, the buildings are on the
ground, but there's still debris visibleto debris there that he's got two or
three foot flames coming out of.So it's on the ground, and I've
seen videos I'm going to post on. I just hadn't had time to do

(10:37):
it yet, but I'm going topost on to the group in the Facebook
page that shows a house a firedepartment doing some training where they actually ignite
it and you can see the timeframe as to how long it takes,
and within forty five minutes to anhour. It's well on the ground by
that time. So I'm still thinkingtwo thirty two clocks somewhere around in there

(11:01):
that it got started, and thenthey finded it eight or eight thirty the
next morning, whatever time it was. That's just kind of the way I
feel about it. Yeah, Andone of the things I think is important
to remembers. A lot of peoplewere wondering about the time of the fire
and mister Petty being able to seethe fire, or how come he didn't
see it, how come he didn'tsmell it, how come he didn't see

(11:22):
those things. Well, mister Pettywasn't out driving there at two thirty am,
so if it was started later,and based on your kind of estimate
and your expertise, you're saying mostfires are started early in the morning,
right, which might be two thirtyish. Yeah, I mean they're most
of them are way I mean earlyearly in the morning, sometimes midnight and

(11:46):
after whenever. You see a lotof most of your arson cases are going
to be in that timeframe. Andthe other odd part about that is is
like during storms and stuff, nowthat's most of the time when those fires
are set like that. It's wheneverthey're they're burning the property or a car
or whatever to collect insurance of money. They want to make it look like,
you know, it was accidental andwhatever. But in a situation like

(12:09):
this, where a fire's being setto cover up another crime, you know,
you could have that in the daytime, you know, whenever. But
but you're right, I mean mostof the arson arson fires that we run
into or sometime after midnight. SoI mean, I don't know if you
guys got any more thoughts on that, you know, So I always have
questions. I always have questions.So what is like, and this is

(12:33):
a hard one. What is thelatest time you think this fire could have
postbly we've been started for it tobe at the level when mister Petty found
it the next day the very latest, probably four four thirty, maybe even
three thirty four o'clock somewhere around inthere. I mean, I wouldn't think
that. I mean, if it'ssix seven o'clock, I think in five

(12:56):
it's still gonna be rolling pretty goodwhen he gets there. And he's definitely
when he's coming. I don't rememberthe time frame that when sun up actually
was on that day, but Imean he's going to see the smoke when
he's pulling up, you know,down the road and stuff. Because I
mean a house fire or structure firewe call it, it's going to put

(13:16):
off a lot of black smoke,you know, defending on what fields are
in there. And and again whenI'm talking about is like the building structure
itself. You know, it's gonnaput off a lot of smoke, and
you're you're gonna be able to seeit for a while, and even at
night, I mean when it's dark, it's you're gonna see it. But
there's something else you got to lookat on that case, is how far

(13:37):
out in the middle of nowhere thisthis structure in this cellar was. It's
sparsely populated out there, and ifeverybody's in bed, you know at that
point in time, and that roadis not well traveled it's not there.
You know, there's not a lotof people up and down that road.
The chances of that thing being setand burning for a long time are really

(13:58):
good because you know, nobody's init and calling it in. Yeah,
I mean, I say, youguys have been there, so, I
mean you've seen the saying, theroad saying, the traffic how long you
know, how far back in thewoods it is to that house, you
know it? Yeah, I endup hill. It's I mean, it's
pretty. It's really rural back thereit is. And I think too,

(14:20):
I think your point makes sense tome is that mister Petty did not see
smoke or anything like that when hewas driving up to the farm that morning.
Like he wasn't like he was downthe road and saw, you know,
a bunch of smoke on his property. It wasn't until he got halfway
up the driveway or close up andstarted walking up then he thought, So,
I think it was already burnt downright to where it was only the

(14:43):
flames and it wasn't putting out thisbig smoke anymore. Yeah, according to
his statement, it was all onthe ground. Both buildings were on the
ground, and there was still flamesin the center of the house where the
house was in the footprint of thehouse and you know, like two or
three feet tall. So that tellsme that there was still you know,

(15:05):
some active burning going on. Itwasn't to the smoldering phase, so it
was just you know, there wasstill some active burning going on that he
could still see visible flames. Andthen I'm sure it was still you know,
some debris that had fell or youknow, other things that were inside
that house. You know, theystill had washers and dryers and stoves and

(15:26):
other stuff. We could see themin the photos. So that kind of
stuff is you know, it's goingto burn for a little bit too.
So sorry to interrupt on that.Does does damp or wet wood create more
smoke than dray wood? Yeah,it'll be more of a whider smoke at
that point, So I mean,you know, because it's gonna have a

(15:48):
lot of steam mixed in with itif it's really damp, if that makes
sense or not, but I mean, because it's it's converting the moisture that's
in that wood into a vapor andit's going to show up, you know,
mixed in with the smoke. Soyou're going to see a grayer,
wider smoke at that point. Butthen when he gets down to the smoldering
phase, like what mister Petty saw, there might still be some smoke coming

(16:10):
from some of the appliances that arethere, or you know, there was
a motorcycle there, there was atruck there that burnt, so some of
that stuff, you know, couldbe still putting off a little bit of
smoke, but not enough. Anddepending on here's another thing too, depending
on the wind conditions and the humidity. If the humidity is up that morning,
it's going to cause that smoke tolay closer to the ground. And

(16:32):
that was all woods you know,around that, so that smoke is going
to push down to the ground andbe inside those woods. So it's very
very plausible. And I believe theman that he didn't see any smoke at
all whenever he came up there,you know. So that's that's just I
mean, that's scientific factors. Thatsmoke does that with the humidity levels and
barometric pressure and you know all that. So right, so I think we

(16:57):
can say, would you say fromone am till four thirty or five thirty
is kind of that window where thatfire probably was started. Yeah, Yeah,
I would definitely say, So we'renarrowing it down to that, right,
So it's kind of valting to me. Yeah, if you want to
get it even closer, I wouldsay two to thirty. But but yeah,
you can go off of that windowbetween one and four. I would

(17:18):
say. I just find that interestingbecause we have Chris dropping her off at
right midnight twelve twelve fifteen, andnow we're narrowed down this window that you
have for us of when this firewas started. And so it wasn't very
long after she got up that drivewaythat this fire was potentially started, which
is kind of my point of ithappened very quickly after she got to the

(17:42):
farm. R Okay, I agreethat discussion about the fire is so helpful
because that is one of the biggestthings that we always, you know,
wonder about, and I think narrowingthat time frame was was amazing at this
at this juncture. So one ofthe other questions that we have, which
kind of goes along with the firein some relation, is her walk.

(18:06):
So one of the comments in thebook was, you know, could Judy
have you innocently right mentioned to oneof the passer buyers on Laurel Creek Road
that she was headed to her family'sfarm, and did any of the passer
buyers no Judy or her family.So what we know so far is that
she did not mention to any ofthe passer buyers that she was heading to

(18:26):
the farm. It was a prettyquick kind of interaction, right. It's
kind of like when you roll downyour window and you say, hey,
are you okay? Do you needa ride? And they're like no,
no, no, I'm good,and you're like okay, and you drive
off. Right. There did notseem to be any kind of long conversation
with Judy when they asked her fora ride. None of that is reflecting
in the reports. And also whenDoug went back and talked to these witnesses,

(18:51):
there wasn't anything more about, oh, well she said she was walking
out to her family farm or anythinglike that. It was just more of
a it was so odd, aswe've all talked about, to be out
walking at that time of night onthose roads, that they just were like,
are you okay? Do you needto ride or anything? And Judy
said no, she's fine. SoI would have to say that most likely

(19:14):
she did not mention that she washeading out to the farm, and I
don't know she really thought if sheknew where she was really going. I
mean, she could have just beenwalking and heading in that way, but
not enough to say to like,I'm going to my farm, right.
She was a very private person andI don't think she would have given that
up anyway. Just kind of myown theory. But guys, I was

(19:38):
gonna say, boys, gentlemen,do you have anything on that. I
mean, speaking of her walk.That has been the focal point for us
from day one, from one tenpercent day one, and there's so many
aspects of that walk and for thepeople in the group who I noticed a

(20:03):
couple of people just can't believe itor wrap their heads around it. We
have eyewitnesses at different points in timealong the route that she walked. They're
all different people. It's not acover up, you know. They these
people don't know each other. Theywere reinterviewed. The ones that are still
alive were reinterviewed again and said thesame exact thing. They were ninety nine

(20:25):
percent sure it was her. Theone of the big questions that we always
had was why is she turning downa ride from a female earlier on in
the night when she's further away fromthe farm and then picking up a ride
from Chris based on his statement lateron, when she's you know, a
mile away from the farm. Andthere's so many aspects of that walk that

(20:47):
have Like I said, it's that'sbeen a focal point for us for a
very long time. And I knowwe have a lot more a lot more
questions pertaining to the walk coming up. But I think you much hit it
right on the head, Melissa.It's just it's one of the most boggling
questions. I don't know if shewas planning on walking out there when she

(21:11):
left the library. I don't knowif she was just walking in a general
direction and got halfway and said Imight as well just go the rest of
the way. We don't know whatshe was thinking at the time. You
can sit there and we can speculateon it. We're not going to assume
because that's just counterproductive on our behalf. We have to go on known facts.
So we can't sit here and tellyou guys what she was thinking because

(21:34):
we don't know. And I agree, Jay, and I think too,
we'll never know, And I thinkthat's what makes this so uncomfortable for so
many people is because you want toknow what was she doing? Why?
You know, this doesn't make anysense most of the time, there's always
one part of a case that youjust doesn't make sense. It's not logic,
and you're like, why is that. Well, we're never going to

(21:56):
know, right unless you know thekiller says, well, she told me
this, right, We're never goingto know in her mind why she decided
to do this. The best thingthat we can go off right now is
that we have eyewitnesses, and wehave her out there tracking that pace,
and we have her out there withChris picking her up. So you know,
we can spin our wheels on thisall day long and continue to talk

(22:18):
about it, but that's not gettingus anywhere. Clearly, that happened,
we don't know why, and sowe have to go with what happened after
that point that Chris picked her up. That's where we're at at this and
I think you know everything before that. We're not going to get answers to
it at this point because no one'sgoing to really know why. Yes,
all we know is that she didshe did she walked, she made that

(22:42):
walk. We do not know why. We don't know what was going on
through her head. We don't knowwhy she turned down a ride earlier on.
We don't we don't know, andnobody does, you know, except
for Judith. And like you hadsaid, that's one of the most frustrating
aspects of the case. And again, like Melissa pointed out, we can

(23:03):
sit here and talk about what shewas thinking or why or what. That's
not getting that's treading water. You'rekicking your legs, but you ain't going
anywhere. So we have to concentrateon the aspects of the case that we
do know, and we have tokind of go forward from there. So
that's why we keep digging for answers. That's why we pulled a bunch of
people back in for interviews, youknow, because we're trying to find out

(23:27):
why we do not believe or therehas been no mention I should say in
the case Fowls, that anybody knewJudy or the Petty family, because what
they did not call the Petties andsay, hey, I just saw Judy
out walking. You know, thereis no indication that these passer buyers knew
Judy or the family. How weended up, how they became known is

(23:51):
they called in. So there wasthe reports of Judy missing, nobody could
find. It was on the news, is in the newspaper. Then these
eyewitnesses called and say, hey,I saw you know, her out walking,
and that is how they got intothe case. Fell and our known
witnesses. So we do not haveany reason to believe that they knew Judy
or the Petty family. Okay,the next question says, was Judy known

(24:14):
to possess or have access to keysthat would open the driveway gate as well
as the farmhouse, And as faras we know, she did, right,
she had keys. Yeah, shehad keys to the gate and to
the farmhouse. Yes, most youknow. Oh I'm sorry, I'm lying.
I'm lying. I'm sorry. Shehad keys to the house, not
the gate. Only mister Petty hadthe gate, and also the guy who

(24:37):
maintained the oil rig, which willwe can talk about. Just to go
on a side fact like if you'rewalking her on foot, you don't need
a key to the gate, youcan just walk right around it, right,
But if you're going to drive anykind of vehicle up there or anything
like that, yeah, you're definitelygonna need it. According to Chris,
that's what she did. She walkedup there. So it's looking at that

(24:59):
gate. It's very easy, likelike Jay said, to walk around it
or go under it. You know, it's pretty simple to do that.
The next part of the and I'llkind of tie this next part in next
question in with that one, iswe're the keys accounted for after Judy's body
was found, and as far aswe know, no, they weren't.
And that could be for a coupleof reasons. One whoever the killer was,

(25:22):
could have taken the keys and disposedof them, took them with them
whatever, or melted in the fire. We know that fire was pretty hot
and sit there and smoldered on topof Judy for a good two or three
days. So it's very possible thatthose keys melted, melted down. Now,

(25:45):
if they were steal keys, theywould probably still be there. But
most of your keys now are justinYou can correct me if I'm wrong,
but most of because you're you're ametal guy, most keys now are going
to be an alloy of aluminum andsome else. Right, Yeah, definitely,
it's just cheaper. They way lessbecause people have more keys for more

(26:06):
things now in their key ring.It just makes more sense you know,
yeah, and some of them aresome of some keys or brass, so
they would you know, if it'sa steel or a brass key, it's
going to be there still. Youknow, it's not going to melt.
It would it would take a asmeltered up to the melt something down like
that. But it would just forthe listeners, it would just discolor them.
That that's the extent of what wouldhappen. They would they would be

(26:29):
charred on the outside. If youscrape the chart off, they're going to
be discolored. They're not going tomelt, right. And so, as
far as we know now that thekeys weren't found, I hope that answers
and all. If you guys gotany new or keys would have Yeah,
new or keys probably would have melteda little bit easier, but very centered
remnants of anything. Yeah. Itis interesting though that somebody would ask that

(26:52):
because they found the steel tips toher boots and they found you know,
I don't know that they found anythingelse, and we were all of us
would talked about that kind of disgustedback and forth that um, you know,
she was wearing like I supposedly adenim jacket. I don't know about
buttons or stuff like that, youknow, if that would have been in
those ashes or not too So whatabout like the zipper? Nippers usually usually

(27:15):
zippers are just what cheap as longas you can put the teeth together,
I mean, it's there's probably notgoing to be much left with the exception
of maybe the little tab that youused to zip because I mean, hell,
even nowadays, I mean that's theonly thing metal on a zipper.
Most a lot of zippers are plasticnow or it's you know, super cheap,

(27:37):
lightweight metal with it's it's not hard, and it's not made to last.
It's it's made basically for profit.So the cheapest way you can make
it and it functions, that's whatthey're gonna do. So I don't know,
I can see the tab maybe beingleft over, but you're looking for
a needle in a haystack at thatpoint. So if we were gonna burned
out haystack, Yeah, if wewere to get a metal detector and go

(28:02):
back to the cellar, would youfind her keys if it was are we
saying that the keys that she probablyhad would not you would find her keys.
You would find her keys with ametal detector for sure. The very
best thing that we could do isgo back to that cellar and pull all
of that huge stuff debris that's inthere, like those bedsprings and those all
that stuff that's big out until weget down to where it's just the ashpile

(28:26):
or the debris pilot's still there,and then go through it once shovel full
at a time and sift off.We don't build a sifter and send all
of that stuff out and just seewhat we find. Yeah, it would
be like a legit archaeological dig,like you just sit there with your tray
and go through each little exactly.Yeah. Yeah, I'm just curious.

(28:49):
Yeah, I'm just curious. Sothe keys were never found, and we
do know she had them on her, so she left the house and her
and her purse. She had herpurse and the keys were there. So
the family were looking for her purseto see she had the keys, and
she did. And one thing toknow is that Judy, like I mentioned,
she had the key to the house. Okay, so there would be

(29:11):
no reason again for Judy to bein the cellar when she could get into
the home where it would be warmerand shelter. Okay, So there was
no reason for her to go downin the cellar. She had a key
to the home and her purse wasnever found. And her purse was never
found, so the keys could havebeen in that that could be laying in
a weeded over ditch, you know, off an embankment for all we know.

(29:36):
So whether she even had the keysin her pocket or not, we
don't know. They could have beenin the purse and the entire purse was
never found. So there's that,ye, So I'll take the next The
next one it is about James,our friend who was the bartender that night.
So you know, the question was, you know where does James the
barman? Well, I went tohis house Dustin and John went to his

(30:00):
house back in two thousand and eight. I don't know where James lived.
He might have still lived in town. And you know, could Chris cut
Right have been giving James a ridehome that night? We didn't hear that
he gave him a ride home.You know, Chris lived with Tom Sam's
out by the Petty farm. AndI believe James from what I know is

(30:22):
he lived more in town in Parkersburg. So I don't know if he would
have been going that way, itwould have been out of his way to
go to take James home, andJames was a bartender. I'm sure he
drove himself and then drove home.So I don't believe that Chris was giving
James a ride, you know,that night. I think Chris was driving
home and James went home. Isn'tit in his statement that James was the

(30:48):
one that decided to shut down earlythat night because of the tough Man contest,
right, You're right? So yeah, So he would have been the
managing you know, he would havebeen the manager of the thing. So
I'm sure he would have probably drovehimself because I'm sure there's other things to
do when I would other than justlock the door down and shut Now,
one of the problems with that isChris cut Right originally told me it was

(31:11):
because of the tough Man contest thatthey closed early, But he's wrong on
his time and his date at thispoint fifteen years later, because this happened
on a Wednesday, and the toughMan contest wasn't on a Wednesday, it
was on Friday. So I thinkthat James probably closed the bar early on
Friday because everybody was at this toughMan contest rather than Wednesday, So I

(31:33):
think when Chris told me that afew months back, I think he got
his days mixed up. Nowhere inthe statement from two thousand and eight did
James mention that he closed early,so I think he closed as normal.
So either Chris stayed till closing ona Wednesday night, or he left at
ten o'clock. And maybe the bardid close at ten o'clock on Wednesday,

(31:57):
if it wasn't that busy us.And do you want to mention about your
conversation with James. He couldn't tellyou that much anyway about that fifteen years
ago. He really couldn't. Wewent to his last known Regrette address that
we had, and it was outon the outskirts of Parkersburg and Waverley.
There it was weird areas right alongthe river. Actually, Jen, the

(32:22):
reason we found out he didn't livethere was because Jen saw the mailman and
we slammed the car in park andshe got out. She walked up to
the mailman and said, Hey,does this guy live right here? And
the mailman was no, I've neverseen that name on any of this mail
because it was a small stretch ofroad. There were I think like maybe

(32:45):
three or four trailers and two orthree houses. And I mean the one
house we saw off this tells anybodyanything had one of those super old school
TV antennas on top of it still, and I'm like, I've not seen
one of those in probably thirty years. So that's the type of area that

(33:05):
we were in. And we gotdown to the end of this tiny little
road and I have never in mylife seen more no trest passing signs than
in this little section of property.It was probably three or four square miles
and they were probably five hundred notrest passing on every single tree, on

(33:29):
everything. And I'm like, Jen, you know, I think they're serious.
You know, I don't think theywant anybody around here. But yeah,
she ended up seeing the mailman,stopped him, asked him, and
then I believe that's when we hada second address, and we went to
his house. So we talked toJames. It was a brief conversation,

(33:51):
maybe five or ten minutes. Hehad no problem coming out. He walked
right out onto the front porch.We gave him the business cards and said
what we were doing, and inhis defense, and I'm not trying to
play devil's advocate. He's trying toremember a random Wednesday night from fifteen years
ago, you know. So wedidn't get very much info out of him.

(34:15):
The one thing that we did pickup on was that he's like,
oh, I don't I don't knowa Chris cut Right. And we're like,
are you sure though, because we'repretty sure the dude dated your sister,
And obviously, because of the unexpectedending of that meeting, we did

(34:37):
not get to ask him that question. But he claimed that he did not
know Chris cut Right, which weknew was untrue. But he also gave
us his phone number and he said, if you guys need anything else,
if you have any more questions,feel free to call me. This is
my cell phone number, which kindof threw us for a loop as well.
All right, you know that's great. We appreciate your time and everything

(34:58):
like that. I want to sayit was a pleasant meeting, but I
mean we tracked his house down andwalked right up the front door and knocked
on his door, and we didn'tget much info into Like I said,
again, not to be a devil'sadvocate here, but this dude's trying to
remember when he closed on a randomnight fifteen years prior. Right, Yeah,

(35:22):
it's hard to say. And youknow, I'll give the guy a
call because he blocked me, right, and so now he's interesting and willing
to talk. So all right,mister James Bonnet, I'll be calling you.
I'm honestly surprised you haven't already.I'm giving him some time. I'm
giving for the listeners. She tookthat personally. She's he blocked me.

(35:45):
Melissa took that personally. That wasso funny because as soon as we left
his house, I told Jim,I was like, I wonder if she's
gonna say anything about him blocking her. And then you're like, did you
ask him why he blocked me?It's like he didn't. The meeting was.
The meeting was literally roughly five minutes, and the dude got another phone

(36:06):
call and he's like, I'm sorry, I gotta go. Here's my number,
Please call me whenever you guys,he was nice, he was polite
to us and everything like that,but great, I'll call him. Then
he can't get rid of me,all right. You know one of the
other questions that we had, youknow, since we're talking about Chris at
this point. Was you know,was there a funeral log and was Chris
there? You know, I'm surethat the Pettis had a funeral log.

(36:29):
But Chris wasn't going to show up. I mean, he didn't know Judy.
He knew he you know, hedropped her off. There was a
lot of heat on him in thesense of he was technically, as far
as we know, the last personto see her alive. So Chris isn't
going to show up at the funeral. And I will say that when a
few months back, Chris did takethe sisters out to show them where he

(36:52):
could remember picking Judy up, andhe was like, well, as long
as they don't beat me up.I mean, he was very nervous about,
Hey, I'm willing to have aboutI'm willing to take you to where
you know I picked her up,But I just hope the family like that,
you know, they're not going toattack me. And so I don't
think he would have shown up atthe funeral. He was like, I
picked her up, dropped her off, and that's it. And you know,

(37:14):
there wasn't anything more to that fromhis perspective, So you know,
he would have gone to the funeral. The family has never said he showed
up at the funeral, So youknow, that's kind of that that question
there, well that and he wasthe main person of interest correct itself.
Admittedly he even said that, Yeah, I would think the same thing that

(37:37):
they thought. There's no logical excusefor him to show up at the funeral,
right after all of that, right, I think I read in a
statement that he said he told somebodyit was the biggest mistake that he's ever
made, which is kind of heartbreakingin a way if you think about it
in the sense of heartbreaking. Butif we believe Chris's story and it works

(38:00):
out, and he's an innocent guy, and at this point we don't have
anything to say he's not telling thetruth. You know, his life for
fifteen years has been tied to JudyPetty and picking her up and people assuming
or thinking and believing that he didsomething to Judy and if he didn't.
For fifteen years, he's lived withthis and this speculation around him, and

(38:22):
he's well aware of it, andyou know, he's like, I wish
I could help, and that's whyhe took the sisters out. So you
know, He's not going to showup to a funeral where everyone's looking at
him, especially fifteen years ago asyou picked up my sister or my daughter
and what happened. Right, So, yeah, and going on that too
real quick. We're not saying he'sguilty, We're not saying he's innocent.

(38:45):
We're just saying he has never beenan official suspect, right, He's never
been named a suspect by law enforcement. He is self admittedly the last person
to see her alive that we knowof, and he has been very helpful
and forthcoming with the family and investigatorsat this point. So I don't,

(39:05):
like I said, again, heself admittedly said, yeah, I would
think the same thing that they thought. What do you want me to say?
So he's not going to show upto the funeral, you know,
it's I don't happen. I don't. I don't think so either. And
I mean he's I mean he's takingthe have remedy polygraphs and passed him and
he's you know, there was onequestion that he kind of was itfy M.

(39:27):
Yeah, you know, and Imean you don't and he didn't test,
it didn't show deception. It wasjust inconclusive right, so you know
so, And polygraphs are inadmissible incourt anyway, Like it's a stress test.
If I take a polygraph over anything, I'm a fidgety, anxious guy,
I'm probably going to skyrocket, youknow, on all the charts however

(39:50):
that works, you know. Butand he's offered to take more. He
sat there and he's like, I'lltake however many you guys want. Just
let me know, right, Imean, a logic thing for anybody that's
ever you know, done anything likethis is like you said he was,
you know, he was the biggestmistake he made. I mean, logically,
anybody that's ever done anything like this, Like I said, the last

(40:13):
person to see somebody alive is usuallygonna be the top suspect and whose own
gets questioned the most and you know, get and get raped over the coals
the most. And I think thisguy has been you know. And again
I'm not saying he's innocent. I'msaying he's guilty, but he's he's put
in some duce. But yeah,I think I think Joan Petty put it
best when we were all over atthe Petty House and and we told them,

(40:36):
you know how our latest trip went. We were talking to him,
and God, bless that woman.I tell you what she is. You
have such a love her. Ilove her so much because she is literally
exactly like my grandma and might likeher and my grandma. I can guarantee
they'd be best friends. They'd bego and get their hair done together.

(40:58):
I can guarantee it. But shehad she had the best point like and
she just sat there and she didn'tsay anything for about five seconds, and
she looked at us and she goes, we trust your guys's judgment. If
we knew that the wrong person orwe've been accusing the wrong person of this
for fifteen years and the wrong personwent to jail, I couldn't live with

(41:20):
that. We want the right person, We want the truth. And that
right there is why I have theutmost respect for that woman, because that
was That's exactly what we're about.And that's why I have that sauce about
spot for Joie. That and shegives the best hugs. I mean he
does, does mister Petty? Doeshe kisses on the cheek? Have we

(41:42):
gotten kids from mister Petty? Ihave not. I have not. I
saw three fifty seven, though Idid get that I did get to see
some of his pistols. Yeah,sure, I'm sure. As you can
tell, we have a great relationshipwith the Petty family and really think highly
of mister and missus pett and definitelywant justice for them and for Judy.

(42:04):
So getting back to our questions here, you know, one of the again
about Judy walking at night. Idon't think that she walked necessarily at night.
She walked a lot, so itwasn't like every night she went out
and did like a normal walk.You know how some people have a routine,
And I think that's the kind ofthe question. Here's did Judy go

(42:25):
out and walk every night at likefive o'clock? Right? No, there
was no rhyme or reason to Judy'swalk. She lived so close to town
there in Parkersburg, and she wouldwalk to the Piggly Wiggly, she'd walk
to the library. She walked daily. But it wasn't that she walked,
you know, at a routine wheresomeone would know, oh, there's that

(42:46):
lady out walking at this certain time. She would just be out doing her
errands, but walking and stead driving. So there was no kind of routine
where Judy would be out walking atsix clock every night kind of thing.
And you know, was Judy familiarwith how long it would take her to

(43:07):
walk to the Petty farm? I'msure. I mean it's a twelve thirteen
mile drive to get out there,and she would often take her grandmother out
there right on driving, so theygrew up there, so she was very
familiar and how far away it wouldbe for her to actually walk that.
She would often drive out there andgrew up there, so I don't think

(43:27):
that she wasn't aware of. Butagain, I guess I'm talking at circles
again. I don't know if whenshe started out if she thought she was
walking to the farm. I thinkshe was out walking and then got halfway
or realized I might as well justkeep going. I don't think her attention
from the library or when she leftwas I'm going to walk out to the

(43:49):
farm. I think as she wasgoing, she still was upset, and
you know, just I'm going tokeep walking. So that's my own opinion.
Fellows, what do you think aboutthat? I have to agree with
you, as somebody who lives intown now who grew up out in the
country. It is super convenient towalk. It's good at exercise, you

(44:09):
get fresh air. In Judy's case, she was recently diagnosed diabetics, so
the exercise is obviously going to help. As you had said, with a
routine, like if I randomly needa pack of cigarettes or something to drink,
I'll walk to the gas station ifit's a nice day, I'm not
gonna get in the car and drive, you know, thirty seconds away.

(44:30):
It's just doesn't make much sense tome personally. I really don't think she
had ever made that walk before.I don't think she had any walking routines.
I think it was just a spurof the moment type situation, and
I think that's usually what some ofher walks were. I think, yeah,

(44:51):
she had planned walks. I thinkduring the day a lot of times.
Because she enjoyed walking, she walkeda lot. We know that it's
proven fact. Whether it was ata set time every single day, no,
No, not from what we've heard, not from anything any interview that
we've read through. There was noreal routine. It was just kind of

(45:13):
the necessity thing. So well,I gotta agree with Melissa on that one.
Yeah, like we were talking aboutearlier, we can't speculate what was
going through her mind, but exactly, I mean just just guessing. I
mean, she may have just justjust took off walking that you know,
that afternoon and was trying to worksome stuff out in her head and just

(45:34):
you know, she just kept ongoing and going and going. I mean
people have done that driving before,you know, just drive trying to clean
your head out and ended up drivingforever, you know. So and she
just she was a walker. Shejust liked to walk. So yeah,
the only person I can answer that'sJudy. You know, we're not going
to get that answer right. AndI think that is what's so hard for

(45:54):
people to believe. And again,I want to remind everyone that this day
that she was out walking, itwas a warm day in Parkersburg. I
know that there's been a lot ofquestions about it being so cold in February,
which normally it is in Parkersbury,But this particular day that Judie made
this walk, it was warm inFebruary for Parkersburg. So it wasn't like

(46:17):
Judy was out walking, you know, twenty degree weather. I believe it
was like sixty seven degrees or somethinglike that, like a high. So
it was unseasonably warm. It wasand that's why she only had on like
a jacket, like a little likedenim jacket. She was not bundled up.
It was not that cold, soyou know, again she loved to

(46:38):
walk. It was part of herthing. But to the question about normal
walking, she took care of hergrandmother, who was twenty four seven.
So Judy did not have like anormal walking routine because she never knew what
her grandmother needed, when she neededit, or what she would need to
do. So there wasn't like thisschedule that Judy had where she knew at

(46:59):
this point I can go for awalk. It was who's at the house
that can watch grandma so that Ican go, right, And so there
was not that consistency. And Ithink that's important to know as well,
is that Judy then also picked upher you know, family members from school,
her little you know, great niecesand nephews and people. She's very
family oriented, so she would pickthem up from school as well. So

(47:22):
there was no kind of Judy's routinewas very much really on everybody else.
If you think about it as I'mtalking, it really depended on when she
could actually get away because she wasresponsible for so many other things well,
I mean too, Judy was theone that her grandma relied on the most.

(47:43):
I mean they would call her,you know, Judy would Judy would
get the call or you know,for grandma needed something, she'd say,
I need Judy, I need Judy. Well, I can tell you my
mom takes care of my dad.He had a stroke several years ago,
and people, I don't think peoplerealize how hard the caregiver's job is and
how much stress that's put on them. And she may have known, you

(48:05):
know, her other sister nephew wasthere, and Judy may have thought,
you know, and here we gospeculating again, but you know, she
may have thought, you know,hey, they're there, I'm just gonna
go for a walk and I'm justgonna I'm gonna decompressed and just get some
stress off and just and she mayhave just took off walking, you know,
and because I know my mom doesthat, so I mean, I'm
not walking. But when she getsa chance to get away, we got

(48:28):
somebody, you know, to comein and set with my dad if I
can go down there or my brotheror something, you know, I know,
you know, she likes to justget out and just go you know,
go, you know, go gowith my daughter and get her nails
done or something, you know,or you know, something like that,
you know, just to to getaway. And I'm I mean, again
just speculating. I'm sure that mighthave been what Judy was doing that day,
just you know, getting out fora little bit and Tom got away

(48:51):
from her and she just took offwalking and didn't really maybe realize how far
she had walked. Yep. Yeah, And I think you know what,
we know that Judy was already ina sad state, if you will.
She was, you know, theyjust lost their uncle, Bill Bill Houser,
and so I believe that, youknow, she was still sad about

(49:12):
that. She's very close with him, and so you know, she was
needing time to herself and her grandma. That day was pretty rough on her.
That's why, you know, Wandaand James, who were living at
the house at time, said goahead. I mean, she was like,
I'm going to go library. Soshe knew Grandma was taken care of,
so I'm leaving. And I thinkshe just wasn't ready to come back.

(49:36):
Yeah, I don't think she's ready. I agree. Yeah, Well,
I've been talking a lot, doyou one of you want to take
these, Melissa, We're used toit. It's fine. I'm just joking
and I'll just say like. Thenext question is, like, do we
know if Judy was financially supported byher family's compensation for her caretaking duties,

(50:01):
and Judy didn't really need money formuch, she didn't have really any expenses,
whether she was financially compensated or paid, I am not sure, Melissa,
do you know. I don't believeshe was. What I what I

(50:22):
know is that she lived at grandma'shouse, probably rent free. It wasn't
her grandma's name, Grandma Wilson,and then it went to mister Petty,
and Judy did not want the housein her name. So Judy collected SSI
or disability, so that was kindof her Her income at that point was

(50:42):
SSI, so she did have thatas a source of income. But other
than that, she didn't do alot of things outside of the home that
would cost money. So she didn'thave a study job at that point.
She well, she did. I'msorry, she took care of her grandma,
which is a full time job.I don't want to diminish that,
but an outside source, no,she wasn't compensated for taking care of her
grandmother in that way, you know, and going along with that, someone

(51:07):
was like, well did she everwork outside the home? If so,
when and doing what? So beforemoving in with her grandmother, she Judy
did work at a company called RGISand that is where she conducted inventories for
our business. So she had livedwith her grandmother five years prior to her
death. So she worked at thiscompany five or six years prior to her

(51:30):
death. So I don't think there'sa correlation between where Judy worked and then
her death. We're talking five sixyears in between those two times, So
I don't feel like there's a there'sa connection there. Does that make sense?
Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Hey, Alan, what do you think
about Was there someone else in thecar with Chris when Judy was picked up?

(51:53):
Well, I mean, if yougo off for Chris's story, no,
there wasn't, but we wentn't thereand we don't know. I'm not
gonna say it definitely, no,there wasn't anybody there, but it's uh,
I mean it's possible. But accordingto what Chris is saying, he
was by himself, right, Iwould have been a tight fit. Yeah,
yeah, that Toyota. Yeah,I mean it would have been.

(52:15):
Um, I just I'm doubting it. I'm doubting that there was anybody with
him. I think he was probablyby himself until he picked her up and
then took her to the gate.Right, he drove a Toyota truck,
right, and so yeah, itwasn't a huge vehicle cab too. I

(52:37):
think I don't even think, yeah, extended cab. I don't think.
I think it was just a singlecab. So it would have really would
have had time. Yeah. Soum. Again, according to Chris,
we only have his statement, hesaying no, no one else has come
forward and said, hey, Iwas with Chris. Um. And also
when Chris mentioned that he had pickedJudie up. Again, Chris is the

(52:59):
one who brought this stop in abar saying, hey, I think that's
the lady I picked up. Hedidn't say, oh, me and somebody
else right picked her up, buthe kind of self admitted he did that
he picked her up, But hedidn't say, oh, me and so
and so we're out going home andpicked up Judy. So I think he
was definitely by himself. You couldlook at it a couple of different ways.

(53:19):
You know, he could probably youcould probably say, well, he's
definitely innesting. I mean, whyhe would be dumb enough to admit that
they picked this person up knowing thatthey died, and you know they're incriminating
themselves by saying I was the lastperson to see her. Or you could
say, well, he's trying todeflect. You know, he's trying to
say, you know, trying tomake himself look like a hero complex thing
or something. You know, Yeah, I'll give her a ride, but

(53:39):
I don't know what happened to herafter I dropped her off, or like
going on the deflection thing, itcould have been a scenario where somebody drove
by and saw his truck because Ididn't recognize the car, So he was
like, I better at least sayI was there before somebody comes looking for
me. Yeah, I just honestly, I don't. I don't know.
I don't see that as a possibility. It's it's plausible, don't get me

(54:01):
wrong. But from all the thingsthat we've read from being there talking to
Chris, I think he was alone. Obviously, I don't. I don't
think he was. Yeah, Idon't think he was with anybody. I
don't know. No. No.One of the other questions that we have

(54:22):
in here is about did Judy havea cell phone? And if she did,
you don't get reception out there.We all know that you definitely don't.
But Judy did not have a cellphone. I know there's been a
lot of back and forth, backand forth, back and forth, going
back. I had to go backto the case file and double check that,

(54:44):
but there is no indication Judy hada cell phone. I know.
It's crazy. In two thousand andeight, people still think that there were
tons of cell phones, but noteverybody had a cell phone, and Judy
did not, And it makes senseto me that she wouldn't because she wasn't.
My kind of view of Judy isthat she was very much in person,

(55:07):
very family. She wasn't like Ineed to have a cell phone.
I need I need that. Maybelater she would have. But same with
mister Petty. You know, hedidn't have his cell phone when he went
out to the farm. He hadto run down to the neighbors. So
he's a phone now. One ofthe reasons is he wouldn't have had reception,
but he didn't have a cell phone, so he you know, ran

(55:28):
down and had to borrow a phone. So again you have two people who
didn't have a cell phone in twothousand and eight that we know of.
So no, we're not able.I wish we did, but no,
we don't have a cell phone thatyou know we back in two thousand and
eight that the cops could have donea tracer on and all those great things
that we can do now in twentytwenty three. In two thousand and eight,

(55:50):
she didn't have a cell phone tobe able to do that. Yeah,
well, and tell you you gotto look at that was fourteen years
ago, and look at how thetechnologies increased. You know, we know,
we know now the coverage sucks outthere, Just imagine what it was
in two thousand and eight. Yeah, yeah, I mean they've put up
several towers and you know in places, and it's still bad out there.
So it is horrible. It ishorrible. Like you'll miss like six calls.

(56:15):
You'll be like walking up the drivewayand then all of a sudden,
you get like all these text messageYou're like, yeah, what's been going
on? Like zero? Yeah,yeah, I remember walking down to the
driveway and we gotten in the carand as soon as we backed out onto
the road. My phone just startedgoing crazy, just vibrating. I'm like,

(56:36):
it's five feet, it's five feet, but it and I don't two
thousand and eight, not everybody hada cell phone like today. No,
it's just I mean, when you'retalking rural America like that, I mean,
there's still places here in Arkansas that'sthe same way, just like it
is there, you know, andI'm sure it otherwise. You know,

(57:00):
it's just there's not there's just thecoverage is not what the map of the
dealer showtimes. You know. Yeah, I was I was driving through Arkansas
or not Arkansas, thank god.Now I'm just now I was driving through
uh, southern Missouri. I wasdriving from northern Indiana to Atchas in Kansas,

(57:21):
and there is a little spot whereI hit southern Missouri and I was
there driving through for about maybe anhour, and I thought that my phone
was screwed up, and I'm justnothing, like, no Google Maps,
no nothing. So I'm called Verizonand I was asking, like, what's

(57:43):
going on. It's like my phonebroken. I know, I paid my
bill, you know all this stuff, and she goes, you are in
the only dead zone within probably onehundred and fifty miles and you're not going
to be out of it for anotherfifty miles. So she literally stayed on
the phone with me, directed meto a gas station to where they had

(58:04):
wified where I could download my Googlemap, and if the whole time,
in the back of my head,I'm like, it's twenty nineteen. How
do we not have coverage? Andshe goes, dude, it's just it's
she's like, there's no She's like, you could have AT and T,
you could have this carrier, thiscarrier, it doesn't matter. She's a
total dead zone. I just couldn'tbelieve it. Yeah, it's it's kind

(58:28):
of like a black hole or triangleor something in some places. I mean,
it just you just don't get coverage, and they say that it's impossible
to get it, you know,in places. So I can understand or
not having one in Na for sure. Yeah. And I don't think she
was that into you know, Yeah, I agree. I don't think she

(58:49):
was one of those that just now, she was not one of those people.
All right, I'm back. Ihad to get another drink. Okay,
sorry, all right, So thelast question kind of is along the
same lines, is you know,was there a computer internet at the home
and was that ever checked for thingslike search history, participation in chat rooms.

(59:10):
So Judy actually was somebody who wouldget on the computer daily to play
those you know, games that youhave online, but not like in chat
rooms. Like she was not somebodywho was you know, online playing poker.
She did a lot of crafts,so she was very much into looking
at stuff online for crafts and projectsto do with the kids, stuff to

(59:34):
do for her grandmother. And unfortunately, again this is one of the things
that is so unfortunate, is thatthe computer was broken at the time of
Judy's death and it could not berepaired and so it was disposed of.
So we don't have her search history, we don't have what she was you
know, who she was talking to, is she was talking to anybody?

(59:57):
You know. None of that wasable to be obtained back in two thousand
and eight. So that's a greatquestion. I wish we had. It's
one of those things where every casehas its you know, I wish we
had those things cell phone, computer, you know, there's so much in
this case that we do not have, but that's not stopping us from continuing

(01:00:20):
to push forward. So in hindsightis always twenty twenty. Sorry to interrupt
you, hindsight is always twenty twenty. It's easy to look at an old
case and be like, oh,this should have been done, or that
should have been done, or Iwould have done this or that, and
it's that's great, you know,but it's hindsight. We can't go back,

(01:00:43):
you know, and do all ofthese things. And that's why we
always appreciate Doug as much as wedo, because you know, we do
know that mistakes were made and we'vethey've been addressed and we're trying to write
the wrongs. And that's why wejust keep plugging away at this case because,
yeah, it would be nice tohave more evidence. It would be
nice to have that computer, acell phone with a tracking device on it,

(01:01:07):
or you know, back then therewas a flip phone. You didn't
have location, you have anything,so you were still doing that T nine
texting, you know, where youhad to had to hit one number like
four times to get a certain letter. You know, people keep forgetting that.
You know, it's we wish wewould have had a lot of things,

(01:01:27):
but we got to work with whatwe got. Yeah, and a
couple of things that we we cantalk about that we're you know, looking
into right now, is you know, there was another individual who had keys
to the gate. Again, youdidn't need keys to the gate to get
on the property. You didn't needit. You can easily, you know,
walk around it, go in theback property, the back way whatever.

(01:01:50):
There is an oil rig on theCutty property and it was maintained by
a company and that individual who usedto take care of the oil rag did
have a key to the gate becausehe would go up and check on it
and do things like that. Sowe are trying to reach out and find
out, you know, if thatindividual is no longer living, But did

(01:02:13):
he talk to anybody about this incident? Justin do you want to add anymore
to that? That is a toughscenario to track down. I will say
that it would be nice to getconfirmation, but at the end of the
day, any confirmation we get isgoing to be second or third party yep,
which unfortunately is a tough when you'reinvestigating a case. Second third party

(01:02:38):
information is tough because sometimes they putwords in people's mouth. Sometimes it's hearsay.
Sometimes they tell you that it's somethingthat they heard from somebody else.
But we are trying to zero downbasically how often he was up there,
what kind of interactions he had,saw anything up there. And it's unfortunate

(01:03:00):
because we have to base this informationon whether or not he told somebody else,
which is extremely difficult to validate.So yeah, we're still trying to
go down that avenue. It's atough one, unfortunately, because as I'm
sure Melissa and Alan can agree,second and third party information is hard.

(01:03:23):
Yes, you know, the oilcompany, we do have them. We
have the guy who ran or hadthe whil rig on the property and everything
like that. So if we triedto pull any charges or anything on somebody
like that, like you said,yeah, yeah, it'd be here safe.
So yeah, you know, it'syou're spending your wheels at that point.

(01:03:45):
But it will say it is thatguy and he's dead or somebody else
that's dead just died in the youknow, in the process of all this
in the fifteen years since that happened. We know we're not gonna get a
conviction on it, but we couldget some closure for the Petty family.
Absolutely, there's not and I thinkultimately that's what we're after anyways, is
that closure for them is say,hey, this is exactly what happened to

(01:04:09):
your daughter, you know, definitely, you know, And if anybody out
there knows something and the person thatmight have done this is gone, you
know, come forward and say something, you know, you're not. I
wouldn't think they're going to get introuble because you you know, you heard
it, you know, and itmight be some information that we can verify.
You know. It's like, thisis what happened to Judy, and

(01:04:30):
this you know, and this ishow it happened, and give them some
closure, you know, oh absolutely. And hearsay is a very slippery slope
in the court of law, dependingon who testifies in court under oath,
depending on who says what, whoyou heard it from the context of how
you heard it. I've learned alot about that recently researching a couple of

(01:04:54):
other cases, and it's a bigeye opener. But again it's a slippery
slope. But at the same time, the court of law aside, we're
just looking for answers and looking forthe truth on what happened to Judith,
and that's what we care about,right And I think too a lot of

(01:05:15):
times, especially when you're doing groundworkinvestigation like this is not everything is going
to you know, we're not lookingfor you to go to court and testify.
We're just looking for information. Andso you know, the person could
be dead, but yet you mighthave something that leads us to somebody else
or some more information and it leadsus down a path. So it's really
important that that's why we reach outto people and we do things, is

(01:05:39):
because we're just looking for information tohelp us better understand. So we may
not be able to use it inthe court of law, let's say,
but it's still used because it's goingto lead us to where we need to
eventually get to the other angle thatwe're looking at. And I'm just going
to put it out here at thispoint. Is I know, for anyone
who's local has known that Billy Struckand Gost, that last name gets me

(01:06:03):
every time. He's an individual.He lived adjacent to the Petty farm.
He was also an individual who wouldfrequent the same bar as Chris Cutwright and
the one that James Bonnet would bartend, and he knew the Petty family of
course, living right next door.He knew Judy and so there is questions

(01:06:25):
about is it possible again, can'trule anything out that Judy made it up
to the farm. She wasn't feelingwell, she had a diabetic thing going
on, and she knew Billy's houseand knew Billy and went to Billy right.
So, unfortunately, Billy is nolonger with us. He died,
and so I am reaching out tohis family to talk to his family just

(01:06:47):
about did they know the Petty familyand what can they tell me about Maybe
Billy knows something and said something tothe family like hey, I saw or
I heard or you know something likethat, not saying Billy had anything to
do with this, but he livesso close to the Petty farm and is
familiar with the Petty farm, andwe have heard again, this is what

(01:07:08):
I want to talk to the familyabout, is that Billy liked to walk
at night, that he was outwalking all the time, and so is
it possible that he heard something,that he saw something, and that he
said something to his family. SoI've reached out and have contacted his sisters,
which I've been able to connect withone of them. But we're playing

(01:07:28):
phone tag around and around and around. But maybe somebody else knows Billy maybe
somebody else has talked to Billy,maybe somebody else knows something about Hey,
this is kind of what we've heard. Let us know again. You can
remain anonymous, you can facebook us, you can call again. This is
just more information to help us.And because he was at the same bar

(01:07:50):
as Chris, he lived adjacent,they knew the Petty family. It's possible
that Billy made have heard or sawsomething and he might have shared that with
somebody. So that's just another avenuethat the safe Haven team is exploring as
well. Oh absolutely, And hisname came up way early when we started
getting into this, and it's beenbrought up a few times since then.

(01:08:13):
Even on our most recent trip toParkersburg, it came up again. And
we had always had him on theradar, but we kind of pushed him
down the list because we don't excludeanybody until it's one hundred percent we believe
they had nothing to do with it. But it would be interesting to see
what his family has to say,because there are people who think it was

(01:08:39):
a crush who liked Judy who sheturned down and said no. And if
that's the case, you know what, maybe he was involved, but that
remains to be seen. We stillhave like so many avenues to go down,
and not because we're stretching the podcastout for people who do not really

(01:09:00):
lies. If we could have solvedthis case in one episode, we would
totally do it. We have noreason to stretch this out. Okay,
let's just let that be known rightnow, all right, because I'm going
to be the one who says it, all right, Melissa, I'll be
the one who says it because look, I look for I look for Justin
to do that. No, andhe's absolutely right. Listen, there was

(01:09:21):
a comment made in the Facebook page, and again I don't listen. We're
not trying to drag anything out.We don't know that Chris had anything to
do Chris had something to do withthis. Maybe this was at fifteen years
ago, right, I am notinterested in dragging this out. There's no
reason to drag this out, Like, why would we want to do that?

(01:09:41):
That is the dumbest, illogical reasonto have a podcast or even do
what we do. We didn't haveto create a podcast, like, we
didn't have to do any of this. We could have done this all under
the radar and not done any ofthis. This is something that we all
agreed upon to bring more attention tothe case to try to get it solved.

(01:10:04):
It's not to draw anything out.Christ if I wanted to make money
like that was one of the commentsI saw a while back. All I
didn't listen the podcat too many advertisements. It's like, listen here still.
The network that I'm on requires acouple advertisements at the beginning, a couple
at the end. I don't Icould load this thing up every ten minutes

(01:10:26):
with advertisements if I cared about money. We do not give a shit about
money. We put our own moneyinto this. We put our own money
into travel expenses, we put ourown money to try to raise reward funds.
We do not care about money.Like. What we care about is
solving this case for the Petty family. Here's the thing. If it was

(01:10:47):
all about stretching out a podcast andmaking money on a podcast, we could
solve. If we could have solvedthis in who podcast in two episodes,
we could have done it. Thereare plenty of other cases out there that
we could bring on and work onto keep stretching things out. You know
what I'm saying, It's not aboutthat. It's about getting this family closure

(01:11:08):
and finding out who did this.And I mean, we're not trying to
get famous off of this. We'renot trying to do you know. It's
that's just ask a mind to evensay something like that. That so yeah,
And the simple fact, if wewere trying to draw it out,
whether it be for ad revenue,popularity, blah blah blah, draw it
out for whatever reason it might thinkperson in the group, Me and Melissa

(01:11:31):
could literally do two episodes a weekand we could just go round table and
just repeat information, all the oldinformation, and just keep going and keep
drawing it out. But we don'tdo that right now. We're in update
episodes because we can't talk about theother things that we have going on with
the case at this moment. Thereare things going on that we cannot publicly

(01:11:53):
say and go heat a bunch ofthe same information that we have a hundred
times. But that's no. Wouldlove that too, wouldn't you? Justin
more Melissa, Well, I justgot done with my rant about my patience.
I'm just I'm just joking listeners.Melissa knows I love her, but

(01:12:14):
I get no. Melissa is fine, but there's so much underlying things that
are going on that we can't publiclytalk about. And that's why with new
people in the group, we Imean, if we were trying to drag
it out, we wouldn't do updateepisodes. We would just keep rehashing the
same old information every single week andliterally draw it out, right, And

(01:12:34):
why would I want to get onhere and get hammered by two Cubs fans
over and over and over every day. Yes, sir, sir, it's
so fun to hang out with bothof you, So you know, we
don't want to keep going around that, but please know that that's not our
intention. And yes, I wasvery um. I've never gotten so mad

(01:12:56):
at such a comment. There's twohundred and fifty five thousand unsolved cases in
America alone right now. We're notgoing to draw out one case for any
entertainment value or anything like that.The family had to go through a lot
of stuff for us to accept thecase. So you know, this is
a great episode for us just tokind of reconnect. And like we said,

(01:13:19):
we're not going to keep putting outepisodes every week unless we have something.
At this point, so we've gottento the part, you know,
in investigation of this case where Weare still doing things behind the scenes,
but it's not something where we're goingto produce something every week, you know,
to keep things going. But knowthat when there is an update,
when there is something we can share, or because we've had a ton of

(01:13:41):
new people joined, so thank youso that people. We decided, hey,
justin had a great idea, let'sdo a Q and A again because
we're getting so many new listeners andquestions and that's fine, So we thought
we would all get together again withyou know, Allen and us and try
to say, let's walk through someof these questions. But know that we

(01:14:02):
are still working very hard on thiscase. There's a lot of good things
happening, and when we have anupdate and we have something that we feel
like we can share, we willput out another episode. And as we've
said before, we're not stopping.We are in the best spot we've ever
been in fifteen years. A lotof stuff going on behind the scenes.

(01:14:27):
Again, hopefully sometime here soon wecan elaborate on some of that stuff.
But yeah, we're not stopping.We haven't like quit. We're still here
and we're still bothering people. We'restill talking amongst ourselves almost every day.
So ye, yeah, awesome.All right, well, fella, is

(01:14:48):
anything else? Before we part?It was good seeing you guys again.
It has been a while. Yeah, even though we talk a lot of
trash to each other and in ourin our chat. But now that's good
being on and updating some of thenew listeners and answering some of these questions
and getting some things cleared up.Hopefully this helps. If there are more

(01:15:12):
questions, obviously put them in thegroup let us know. Also, welcome
all the new members from YouTube.I hope this episode fills you in and
gets you more up to date.And yeah, I hope this helped ellen
anything. Are you quiet? No, I'm just listening. I'm the lone
wolf over here. Now, lonewolf just kind of echo what Justin said.

(01:15:35):
I mean, anybody's got anything,I mean, just I mean,
just come out, and I meanyou can remain anonymous, you know,
just come talk to us. Company'sin any of us a message, and
you know, it's just somebody outthere knows something. It's just it's not
it's almost impossible to keep a secretthat long, and not that it's a

(01:15:58):
secret, but I mean, justcome out and help us. And thanks
everybody for being, like you said, being on the Facebook page and being
on with this and help it outwith it. Awesome, all right,
fellas well. It's been a pleasureand I guess we'll see you soon,
all right, all right, allright, all right days later, all
right, Hi everyone on the