E15 - The Latest Information

Jen, Alan, and Melissa discuss the latest information we recieved and why it's so relevant. They also talk a little bit about the latest trip to Parkersburg.

Episode Transcript

(00:55):
Welcome to episode fifteen of safe Haven, the Unsolved Murder of Judith Petty.
We want to take a moment andwelcome all our new listeners to the podcast
and the Facebook group. Safe Havenis now at fifteen hundred members. Keep
sharing the page and podcast to keepthe movement going. If you have not
listened to our previous episodes, pleasemake sure to go back and take a

(01:15):
listen. Also, a big welcomeback to our crew who I've been with
us from the start, so wewanted to record an episode. Boy do
we have a lot of updates toshare with all of you since the last
time we released an episode. Ihave Jen and Alan are joining me tonight
to discuss these huge movements in thecase. Justin was not able to join

(01:40):
us tonight, but we wanted toget this episode out as soon as possible,
so we decided to just go aheadand sit down and talk about all
the new movements and information and leadsthat we have gotten probably over the last
month. So first of all,how are you both doing since the last
time we talked. I'm done prettygood. I just got home from work

(02:02):
because I'm trying to shift my braingears a little bit. But I'm doing
well, and we finally got somegood weather here in Colorado, so I'm
happy. Yeah, I'm doing good. It's so it's like sweltering hot down
here. It feels like I'm inPanama or something. But it's good,
well, good good. I know, Alan and I were just together this
past weekend and more to come onthat the first time I got to meet

(02:24):
him. So he's very tall.He's taller in person than I anticipated,
but he's probably like, well,you're smaller than I anticipated, you're shorter.
So anyways, we wanted to goahead and just dive into this episode.
And so, you know, backin June, we had posted on
our Facebook page that we were goingto be coming back to Parkersburg, that

(02:46):
we were wanting to come back anddo some more investigation, particularly around the
Cellar area. Alan had never beento Parkersburg or seeing the property out there,
so we wanted him to go outthere and be able to see the
seller firsthand and get his investigative skillsto you know, put his investigative skills

(03:07):
to use and kind of really geta good idea of what he thinks happened.
So while we are waiting to dothat, you know, part of
what crowdsourcing is and what this podcastin our Facebook group is is people are
sharing information, they're reaching out tous, and you know, halfway,
I would say, at the endof May, beginning of June, I

(03:30):
was, you know, making allthese phone calls that I make, just
trying to connect with people who livedin Parkersburg, and I came across a
source who, you know, basicallyjust flat out told me that he was
told, you know, who killedJudy. What happened, you know,
burned her and the and the sellerto get rid of evidence. And I

(03:52):
almost fell off my couch when thisinformation came through, because in fifteen years,
no one has ever said this isHill. You know, this is
who killed Judy. And to finallyhear somebody put a name to that and
say this is what happened, thisis who killed Judy, and this is
how they burned their body, andyou know, I know, it reached

(04:14):
out to all of you at thatpoint, going oh my gosh, I
can't believe that I'm hearing this.And one of the things was, you
know, how credible is this?You know, okay, we have this
information, but there was enough therethat only that the killer would have known
or killers would be you know,have information on that. It made sense,

(04:34):
and so you know, we decidedas a team, you know what,
we need to do more investigation beforewe go to Parkersburg. We wanted
to make sure we dived into moreinformation about you know, the names that
were given and do our due diligencebefore we even showed up in town,
because we want to have a goodgame plan. And we're all traveling from

(04:57):
state you know, other states,and so we want to make sure that
when we're there we use you know, the time you know, max time
possible. So, you know,Alan and Jim kind of what was your
thoughts when I reached out to youand saying, oh my goodness, we've
someone has a name and saying thatthey know who killed Judy. Um,
I think that I'm always uh naturalskeptic, but um and I think you

(05:20):
kind of have to be in orderto properly vet information. But uh and
I'll Alan speaking, I mean interruptyou. But um, once you told
us the whole story, there wasa couple of details in there that really
made my ears perk cup And I'mlike, oh, those are details only
somebody, only the killer or somebodythe killer confessed, who would know?
Yeah, exactly, that's the That'sthe same pretty much the same thing I

(05:43):
was going to say, except therewas THO was just things about the story
that that person told that I stilla kind of out there on. But
there's parts of it that for sureonly only people that know no would would
tail. So yep, right,yeah, And so you know, we
took that information and was really excitedabout it because, like we said,

(06:04):
you know, there's never been aname, you know, there's always been
this story or this rumor this thoughtof you know, Chris Cutwright or all
these other people that has names havebeen brought into the case, but nobody
had ever specifically said this is whokilled Judy. So we decided to get
back here on the episode and talkabout the two names specifically that had been

(06:28):
brought up as having you know,a part or you know, leads into
the Judy Petty case. And sothe first person we wanted to talk about.
His name is Mitchell Mitchell Wright,and he was twenty four years old
in two thousand and eight. Hisname got brought into this case because our
source had mentioned that, I knowmany people know this name from our listeners

(06:55):
and people who lived in Parkersburg.Billy Shrek and Glass as Mitchell Right's uncle.
So we heard from a source thatBilly had told somebody that Mitchell had
killed Judy and that Mitchell's uncle's coveredup the crime, that they threw her
into the cellar and set her onfire. So it looked like, you

(07:18):
know, there was like three orfour people involved in this crime. And
some of the details that Billy providedthis person really made us question, Okay,
there's some validity or there's some truthto this. He knew some things
that would make sense, and otherthings were kind of like no, that
that doesn't you know, fit withwhat we know. One of the unfortunate

(07:43):
parts of this case is Mitchell isdead. He died of an overdose January
twenty first and twenty seventeen from heroin. So, you know, unfortunately Mitch
is not here too, you know, for us to talk to to be
a able to you know, findout more about why his uncle would say
he killed Judy. So when wewere in town, we did stop by

(08:07):
his family and and you know,want to give them the opportunity to talk
and more to come on that nextepisode. But you know what we found
out was that Mitch actually was addictedto pills in two thousand and eight.
From what we understand, and whenwe were there in Parkersburg, we talked
to, uh, several people thattold basically the same story that he had

(08:28):
a pretty bad car wreck. Idon't remember what year it was. To
you, it was before two thousandand eight, but I don't remember exactly
what day it was. It wastwo thousand and six, two thousand and
six. Yes, he had areal bad car wreck and they had to
pin part of his hips and pelvistogether and stuff. So, and he
had kind of gotten addicted to paintpills about that time, and you know,
just over I think over a periodof time, he just kind of

(08:52):
graduated from from one to the otheruntil he ended up on heroin and then,
uh, I don't know if I'mjumping the gun on this, but
then know was, uh, hegraduated from you know to heroin, like
I said, and then kind ofgot to dabbling in meth as well.
So but you know, it justit just got really really bad for him
and he just had a you know, a pretty good problem with it.

(09:13):
And also he was you know,drinking a lot too, so he was
getting around, he was you know, what happened, and what we've heard
is that you know, he gotinto the car accident and was prescribed medications
of course, Yeah, and thenthose became you know, really he was
chewing pills, as they say,you know, he was playing, he
was taking he was taking pills,I mean just handfuls at a time,

(09:33):
and and uh, he was goingfrom percocets to vict and just pretty much
everything. And he just got towhere he was needing those more and more
and more and more, and hejust couldn't get away from him. And
I and I guess you know theway it usually works with some of these
folks, that the pain pills wasn'tdoing it, so he you know,
he went to heroin, and youknow, after the pills, So he

(09:54):
was addicted to the pills in twothousand and eight, which is where we're
the timeline that we're focused down right. I mean, Judie was murdered in
two thousand and eight, so wereally wanted to focus on two thousand and
eight, and we found out throughour research in our context that you know,
Mitch was not you know, onmeth or heroin in two thousand and
eight we do know that he wasstarting to do the shake and bake method

(10:18):
for the meth in the woods,but that wasn't until two thousand and ten.
So that's after Judy's death, becauseyou know, one of the questions
that we had was is it possiblethat he was doing the shake and bake
in the woods and you know,she came upon him, but you know,
we wanted to, you know,take a look at that, and
it looks like that didn't start tilltwo thousand and ten. There was some

(10:41):
people that we talked to that,uh that were there with him when he
you know, his first his firstexperiment with shake and bake, and and
he said for sure that it wasin two thousand and ten because it was
there was something that happened that heremembered, you know, or this person
remembered where and when and everything.So we've pretty well solidified the fact that

(11:03):
he wasn't doing anything like that untiltwenty ten. Right. And one of
the things you know, we didfind out was, you know, to
obviously support your drug habit pills andother things like that, Mitch would drive
around at night or i'm sorry,during the day and he would be scouting
places for things, to steal offpeople's property. So that's how he afforded

(11:24):
his pills and other things like that. Is he was actually known as a
thief, you know that he couldnot be trusted even through high school he
started it. He was part ofyou know, even if he saw something
during the day that he wanted,he would go back at night. And
I think we were told one timehe stole a bunch of was the ATVs

(11:46):
or something during the day. Yeah, him and several other guys had got
into a police chase and in somethingand ended up you know, they still
I forgot how many they said,but it was it was several in one
big try tylor Lowe, did theyif they stole and I mean they got
in trouble for it, I guessyeah, yeah. And I just can

(12:07):
I chime in for one second,I just because I know there's going to
be listeners that are like, ohmy gosh, this is slander or libel
or defamation, and no it's not. I just want to clarify that this
team has This is not just singlesource reporting is what we would call it
in the army, which is notvery reliable. This is information that's been
vetted and confirmed by multiple people inthe local area, and we're not you

(12:31):
know, Mitch may have had nothingto do with Judy's death, but this
is what the team has been toldby more than one person, and we're
going to put it out there becauseif he was involved, there's probably more
people that know and they can helpus close this case. Also, and
not being rude, but you cannot, you legally cannot defame the dead.
So I just wanted to make thoselegal boundaries clear and that you guys aren't

(12:56):
engaging in that, because I'm surethere's gonna be a couple of people that
are going to cry all but thisis, you know, part of an
investigation you have vetted, you know, like you guys just said you talked
to Dug about all this ahead oftime. He's confirmed some of the more
the criminal activity, which makes thesources more reliable. So I just wanted
to be clear on that that we'renot out to talk poorly of somebody for

(13:18):
no good reason. Thank you,John. I guess we should have said
that at the at the beginning.That's okay, Yeah, yeah, I'm
glad you threw that in there,but yeah, so you know, we
are not interested We're not saying Mitchhad anything to do with this. We're
just going off what somebody had toldsomebody else and then based on that,
we're like, well, we needto look into it. And that's what
this all is. We're not sayinghe did or did not. We're just

(13:41):
saying this is what we are toldand we are bringing that to you all.
And that's you know, what Johnwas saying is, you know,
we're not looking to defame you know, Mitchell at all. Well, and
if there's anybody out there that canbring evidence to the contrary, we would
like that too. So, buthe has evidence that supports this account or

(14:03):
refutes it. Please either way wewant to know. Well, well in
two and what a lot of peopleout there need to understand is the investigation
process. And that's I mean,when we get these tips, we've got
to look into them both ways,whether they you know, and either vet
what we've heard or defunct what we'veheard, you know, to where you

(14:28):
know, we've got to either lookat it and see if it's true or
see if it's not true. Yes, exactly, And that's what we're doing.
I mean, we're not, likeyou said, We're not saying much
or this other name had anything todo with it. We're just we're saying
that we've got to check into itbecause some of the stuff we've heard was
pretty credible that only people you knowwould know that we're actually there. So

(14:48):
yeah, now what we're doing iswe're going in and vetting these these statements
because what we were told made alot of sense and was pretty credible.
Because some of the some of thedetails, only people that were there would
know some of these details, right, I totally. And that's that's where
we're going with this. We're notdoing it to defame anybody or you know

(15:11):
or whatever. So there's more,right, Melissa, like this, yeah,
some other some other details that we'retold, you guys. Yeah,
And you know, as we weredigging into Mitch and you know, his
life at that time, you know, we were told that he had a
significant behavior change in two thousand andeight that actually resulted in a divorce from

(15:31):
his first wife. And so youknow, when you look at profiling,
when you look at red flags,you know, for for me, that
was a significant, you know,flag that I needed to look at because
when somebody commits a crime, youknow, oftentimes they will have significant behavior
changes, you know, their theirdrugs will increase, their behavior changes,

(15:54):
their personality changes. And we weretold by a few people that they can
remember in two thousand and eight,that's when Mitch was no longer Mitch,
that he definitely had significant changes inhis personality, but also his drug use
changed after two thousand and eight,And so you wonder if there's a correlation
between Judy's murder and these changes inMitch. For sure, sure, you

(16:21):
know. The other the other thingthat we had to consider is, you
know, when we look at meansmotive an opportunity, and I know,
Jen, you did an amazing episodewith us kind of going over you know,
different means motive an opportunity. Sowhen we look at the means for
mitchum, he was related to Billy, Shrek and Goss of course, and

(16:45):
you know Billy was his uncle,and Billy lived right there near the Petty
property. So we're talking point fivemiles through the trails the woods, So
Billy lived right there, and Mitchwas obviously related to Billy and new Billy
would hang out with Billy. Sohe's also guessing familiar with the woods and

(17:07):
the properties there on Deerwalk Highway becausehis family lived out there. So Mitchell's
mom is Kim, right, youknow, she was a Shrek and Goss
and then she married Bob Wright.So Mitchell's mom, Kim and Billy are
are brother and sister. So wehad to sort all this out, didn't
we. There were so many namesand oh my gosh, and fine it

(17:33):
is um you know. So whenyou talk about means, you know he
lived or he was familiar with theproperty his family lived out on Deerwalk Highway.
The fact that Mitch would drive aroundduring the day and then go back
at night and steal stuff. Yeah, he would have the means if that

(17:53):
makes sense, Jen, do youhave anything or Allen? And the means
part. Well, the only thingthat on the means that that kind of
kept throwing me backwards on it waswhile we were up there and talking to
these folks, a bunch of themjust kept talking about how Mitch wasn't really
overly aggressive. He would like backdown from fights and stuff like that,

(18:15):
and uh so that kind of ledme back on that. But as far
as knowing the property and having youknow, access to it, I think
he very much did. I wouldagree. I've forgotten about that. Forgot
about that. Yeah, that's areally good point. Is we heard over
and over again that Mitch. Youknow, when you talk about you know,

(18:37):
ruling someone in or out, youknow, you take it all together,
look at everything, and you know, over and over again we heard
no way Mitch did not go fora fight. You know, he was
not a violent person, no historyof a beating. Yeah, there was
several people he would back Several peopletold us that he would back down from
fights, and even he got,you know, beat up on a couple

(18:57):
of times, and and it justdidn't I don't know, it just doesn't
sound like somebody that would be homicidal, you know, unless you know,
they get what's called liquid courage sometimesfrom alcohol and drugs and stuff. So
you know that in that change happenedin two thousand and eight, So you
know, I don't know what thatcould be it, but you know,

(19:18):
there was several several people told usthat, no, there's no white Mitch
would do that. He just youknow, he just it's not his personality.
So well, I'll chime in aboutthat, because most people who get
convicted of murder, their family membersalways say the same thing. They can't
believe it. You know, hewouldn't hurt a fly. And you said
liquid courage is one thing, Buthere's another thing. If you factor in
that the person is looking at andpossibly losing their livelihood or their freedom.

(19:41):
Meaning true, someone caught them inthe act of doing something criminal and now
they're scared they're going to go toJail's true, That's very true. I
can absolutely play into the motive,which is going to be the next part.
So I don't I always take familymembers accounts of people with a huge
grain of salt, because no oneever wants to believe that their person or

(20:02):
loved one is capable of injuring somebodyelse. Yeah, And on the means,
just to clarify, means refers toa person having the capability to carry
out the crime. So like inJudy's case, if we had, say
a paraplegic that lived next door andwas wheelchair bound, they do not have
the means to get up her drivewayor get into her yard and take control

(20:26):
of her and kill her. Right. So that's that's what we mean when
we talk about somebody having the meansto carry out a crime, it means
they have the capability and the knowledgethat they need. And so what do
you think about Mitch for the means, Jen, Yeah, I mean he
lived in close proximity and like yousaid, had other family members with property
that basically bordered the Petty farm.I almost guarantee that everyone that lived in

(20:48):
that local area knew the Petty Farmwas uninhabited, and that would be knowledge
the killer probably needed. If theythought a whole family was living there,
they probably wouldn't have trespassed onto theproperty and again had the capability to get
onto the property at night, andprobably not up the driveway. So that
would mean the killer probably needed toknow those back trails or whatever the accesses

(21:11):
from the backside of the property thatyou can take where you're not on the
road. You don't need to bein a vehicle, but you can still
get to the house. And then, you know, when we take a
look at motive, you know,what is the motive here? And I
think we've all struggled with I don'tknow if we'll ever really know the motive
right because it's such an odd circumstanceof how this all kind of happened.

(21:33):
But you know, a motive wouldbe maybe you know, Judy walked upon
Mitch who was stealing things off theproperty, you know, and he was
high on pills that he killed her. Maybe he was hallucinating or panic or
just really you know, not inthe right mind that he thought something was
you know, she was there foranother reason. And then once you kind

(21:56):
of you know, you kill somebody, then you got to cover it up.
And if you panic, do yougo ahead and then you know,
involve other people because you're so hallucinatingand not with it. Alan what you
can probably speak to motive better interms of the arson aspect, Well,
yeah, I mean on the motivefor that would be you know, definitely

(22:18):
killing her for sure, because weknow from the toxicology airports and and everything
that she was definitely dead prior tothe fire starting. Um So, in
my personal opinion, for what that'sworth, I think that that would be
the motive for starting that fire.It wasn't just to get warm. It

(22:38):
wasn't you know, whatever it was, It was to to get rid of
that evidence. And you know,and we talked about when we talked to
mister Petty and the family the otherday, they were talking. One of
them asked me about that that verysame thing about you know what my opinion
was for them starting to fire.And I told him, I said,
to get rid of the evidence.And I said it's I said, it

(23:00):
sounds bad, but that that bodyis physical evidence, and that's what they're
trying to burn it up. Yeah, you know, and this one is
I've told you guys several times,this is the worst one that I've ever
seen as far as almost total cremation. Whoever done this got really really lucky
with that because you know, anythingthat might have been on that body is

(23:23):
gone. So now we've got tolook for other things. So, yeah,
we can't even determine the cause ofdeath or how she was killed.
And that maybe the motive right therecould be you know, yeah for well,
I mean you basically alluded to that, but they may have I mean,
I'm just putting out a hypothetical,but they could have shot her.
Yeah, the bullet didn't exit her. Yeah, and now you know they're

(23:45):
like, oh my gosh. Idon't know if they're not forensically aware,
but they could be thinking, ohmy gosh, no, they can recover
that bullet. They'll know what caliberit is and something and too, you
know, you talk about you know, shooting her. The only place that
they checked for for bullet smear andall that stuff was in the skull fragments.
And you know, you can shootsomebody in the thoracic cavity and kill

(24:08):
them in the back or whatever.And yep, you know, so and
none of those pieces really were therefor them to check. So exactly.
You know, this is a andI hate to call it this, but
it's almost a perfect storm for forthis. Yeah, I think my talk
no, and I was gonna say, I was gonna have you explained.

(24:30):
You know, we kind of talkedabout, you know, and organizing an
unorganized killing and for this kind ofsituation where hypothetically, you know, if
we look at it, which iswhat we have to do them, which
is what we're doing. Let's sayMitch was up there, he was hallucinating,
he was on you know, pills, he was paranoid. He kills

(24:52):
her. Then why, um,you know, if you're in a straight
panic halluciation, do you know thenor are you then in the mindset of
I've got to now cover this upor do you run? You know,
do you have that foresight that justyou know that for is that foresight?
I'm trying to say, can beright work, what is it? No,

(25:15):
that's an appropriate word. I thinkto be able to to think ahead
through your next steps and what makessense. I don't think. Yeah,
I don't think any of it wasreally planned out. I don't. I
mean, I don't know. Youknow, I don't think they sat there
and thought two or three weeks aheadof time. I know she's going to
be there. You know, thiswas a spur of the moment. Yeah,

(25:36):
I've got to do this. Allcrap, Now I've got to do
this, and now I've got torun and now I've got to keep my
mouth shut for however many years.Right, she became a victim of opportunity.
But this, in my mind,is no way somebody who looked because
some people some so there are serialarsonists and killers that look for victims of
opportunity, right, they don't stalktheir victims. This is not that,

(25:59):
because we would see similar crimes inthe surrounding counties or this county. So
this was she, unfortunately, wasa victim of opportunity. Like you said,
Alan, there's no way the killerknew she was going to be up
at the house at night. Sosomething else nobody did not even hurt nobody,
you know, I mean exactly totallyout of character for her to go
up there, and she's never doneit before, and yes, you know,

(26:22):
it just it just happened like itdid. Like I said, that
was just the ingredients for a perfectstorm to happen at the very end.
And yes, and now we've gotto wait to figure out what happened.
I would say this person is onthe organized versus disorganized scale. They're definitely
gonna be on the disorganized end ofthe spectrum, probably not one hundred percent,

(26:42):
because they got away with it.I can almost guarantee some kind of
altercation happened, and that could stillbe her getting hit by a car,
you know, but something happened thatwasn't planned and it escalated or sheet like
I said, she threatened the person'sfreedom or livelihood, or came across them
committing criminal activity something like that,and they probably killed her in a snap

(27:06):
reaction and then panicked and thought,you know, as you already explained,
like well, let's light a fireto destroy the evidence. And unfortunately they
just got super lucky. Yeah,with the location of the fire. Yeah,
were they done it at you know, in that cellar? I mean
that was I don't know, Imean, you know, and everything falling

(27:27):
in on top of her. Itwas. Yeah, I sent you guys
a picture of you know, whenwe were up there in Parkersburg and I
was going through there, we foundglass that was literally melted it. It
had literally liquefied during that fire andhad encapsulated inside of it. And when
I got back and got to beable to do some research on it,

(27:48):
glass does that at twenty six hundreddegrees Wow, oh my gosh. You
know, so that's that's hot.You know, when it sustained that for
a long enough time to totally destroyalmost all of her body. And they
counsel by the rest of them momestto the point that they were super fragile,
and it's just, you know,like I said, they got lucky.

(28:11):
I mean, everything worked out intheir favor, sadying, not in
Judy's. Yeah, I know.So you know, when we look at
opportunity, you know, Mitch definitelyhad access to a TVs and that's kind
of what we heard is and howthey would get around it, you know
night and just kind of your countryboys, you know, and if you're

(28:32):
stealing stuff, access to the trailsyou use your ATVs. And you know,
one of the big things is,so how do we, you know,
rule Mitch out as Judy's killer?And you know, I don't think
that we can ever rule anybody outuntil we can get one hundred percent confirmation
that you know, this person person'skilled Judy. But we can look at

(28:55):
everything that we have gathered so farand I would, you know, move
Mitch further down you know, thelist in regards to actually being Judy's killer.
You know, when we take alook at his means motive, an
opportunity and his wanting to run fromfights and you know, not really being
the aggressor. Um, he wasn'tmaking meth back then, he was on

(29:19):
pills. And you know, Ikind of look at it all and it
just doesn't fit, Like, howwould he We'd have to put him there,
and that just means he has tobe up there visiting his uncle or
you know, somehow just be andon the property. And I think when
we look at it, that's lesslikely if that for me? Yea,

(29:41):
what do you yeah? I agreetotally. Well, yeah, and if
he's driving around during the day lookingfor properties of opportunity to steal from the
Petties is not one because you can'tsee, you can't even get close to
say in the house, yeahs youwalk in, So he's not. I

(30:03):
don't think he would pick it fromfrom that standpoint, but I think he
could have been, you know,at his uncle's. I suppose at night,
maybe they went off into the woodstogether to do whatever. We're going
to talk about Billy in a minute. But it's hard for me to come
up with a scenario where Mitch wouldbe the sole perpetrator of this crime.
I agree, I agree, degree, you know, then we go into

(30:26):
the next person of interest, againnot saying Billy did it, didn't do
it, but based on you know, information that we've heard as we started
digging more into Billy, his redflags, I'm kind of overwhelmed by the
number of things that we have foundout on Billy. And we'll talk about
his means and motive and opportunity,but a couple of things to know about

(30:48):
Billy. So Billy strucking Goss.You know, back in twenty fourteen,
he had told somebody, you know, just kind of out of the blue.
So we're talking, you know,what is that seven years from when
Judy was killed? Six Yeah,six. See, I'm a social worker,
not a mathematics. Yeah. No, one's gonna blame me athkill six

(31:11):
years okay, six years past,And all of a sudden, Billy just
kind of up blurts out to somebody, Hey, Mitchell killed Judy and his
uncles covered it up by burning herin the cellar. And you know,
his uncles would be the rights.So the right family lives out there.

(31:32):
So there's Bob Wright, John Wright, Lon Wright, and he names them
and says basically that you know,Judy was new too much information that you
know, Mitch killed her, thatshe was out at the bar, showed
up with some people and then theyleft and brought her to the property and

(31:52):
then they killed her. And youknow, that's where we started looking and
going, okay, there's some moreinformation we're not releasing that was told at
this point that you know, waskind of interesting for what we know about
the crime, and out of theblue for someone just to say that was

(32:13):
rather interesting. And this person actuallyasked Billy point blank, did you kill
her? Were you involved? Andhe didn't deny it, nor did he
say yes. So to me notsaying anything is I would say that you
know, to know the information hehad, he had to be there or

(32:34):
he had to do it right.So when we took a look at Billy
and everything else. Now, unfortunatelywe have another person of interest who was
dead. Billy committed suicide actually ayear later, so after he shared this
information with his with the source intwenty fourteen, he actually committed suicide in

(32:57):
January. So he died January twentyfour from a gunshot to the head.
So he is no longer again aroundfor us to be able to question,
to be able to verify what hesaid. But given this person's information who
told us this, we have enoughto just keep talking with more people who
are kind of saying some interesting thingsabout Billy did Did either one of you

(33:21):
had anything more about that before weget into the flags, Yeah, I
do. And somebody some of thelisteners out there, may you know,
say, well they're dead. Youknow, what are we going to do?
What can we do about it?Now? We want you know,
and and we found out, Imean, we we've got to close this
case out regardless, and you know, we found out said different ways that

(33:43):
you know that we can do that, and that's and that's what we're doing,
you know. So we're not again, we're not trying to pin this
on two people that are dead.We don't know that they did it.
We're still and what we're doing istrying to either say, you know,
find evidence that they did or evidencethat they did so. And we're following
the evidence that's been giving well toyou guys, not me, but you

(34:07):
know, you're following the evidence andwhere it leads. We're not snatching names
out of the air and then tryingto place them there. That's not how
we operate. And like you guyssaid, there's some more details that we're
given to you that we're not goingto release at this time, stuff that
you know, Doug's running down andwhatnot. But they point in the direction
of possibly one or both of theseguys, and so we're hoping we can

(34:30):
either corroborate some of this information orsomeone can come forward with, you know,
a good alibi for them or something, you know, to where we
can take them off the list whatever. We don't care which way well Lock
and Wissa said, and we're fixingto get into them. But the red
flags, it's it's hard to turna blind eye to them for sure,

(34:51):
And I don't know if anyone,you know, when we went on WTAP
when we are in town. Youknow, as we said in the beginning,
in fifteen years, Mitch and Billy'sname has not come up in this
case as persons of interest. Theywere never talked to, They were never
interviewed. And that that blows mymind because as we get into the Red
Flags, Billy lived, as Imentioned earlier, point five miles yeah,

(35:15):
from the Petty farm, So thePetty Farm and the Shrek and Goths farm
back back up to each other.Yes, And you can actually get from
Billy's property to the Petty farm,you know, through the woods and trails,
and you can actually see the trailson Google Earth. Is that right
now? And you can they're likethere, you can see them from two

(35:35):
thousand and eight. It wasn't difficult. Yeah, yeah, and you and
I can attest we we walked partof them while we were up there the
other day and it and you cansee the trails even on the ground,
uh, from you know, partof the way, and and uh,
it's it's it's super easy to toget across there. I shouldn't say super
easy, because there's a lot ofhills and valleys and stuff and anticks to

(35:59):
Melissa and there, Ellen, Ellen, what's your count? How many ticks
do you get? I don't remember. I lost him, but I'm sorry.
Funny story, funny, it wasso bad. Doug called me or
texted me Monday night and was talkingabout how bad just did the ticks and
sugars were that he got and hedidn't get off in the weeds like we

(36:22):
did. So oh god, tishow he did? Said he did?
Yeah, he never told me.So what was funny is I don't have
one, and I'm going to checkmyself again. But what was funny?
I have to tell you this story. So of course I'm riding with Doug
and you're having finding all these tickson you in a different car. So

(36:42):
now I'm like sitting with dog inthe car and I'm like checking my arms
in the back round like I'm lookingfor ticks and dogs, like stop it,
you're making me nervous. I waslike me out and he's like,
don't you know you just because Allenfreaks you out, you can't free me.
And I'm checking and it was sofunny. I had none though,

(37:06):
knock on wood, gosh lucky.Yeah, Allen's like picking them off,
like yeah, yeah, well guesswhat in February of any year, there's
no ticks or I'm going, there'san advantage for whoever I'm going. But
the next time I go back andsnoop around up there, I'm going after
the frost when the leaves are comingoff. Yeah. Yeah, that was

(37:30):
fun. But you know, soagain as we look at this, and
we look at how close Billy livedto the Petty farm, very easy backwoods
trails, and he knew them.Yeah, you know, he was very
for sure. Well he lived upthere all this life, and I mean
for sure. Yeah, and thisis this next one, this next red
flag is very very huge for me. So we have heard and we heard

(37:53):
this way in the beginning about ayear ago when we first started this investigation,
but we weren't putting too much weightinto it. We had other people
we were looking at and really justwanting to get everything. But we had
heard that Billy actually had a crushon Judy, So you know, we
had been told that he had acrush on Judy and also Judy's sister Cheryl,

(38:16):
So you know, Billy knew thefamily, He knew Judy specifically,
he knew the petty family. Sothere's you know, you got close proximity
to the scene, and you havesomebody who's familiar with the family and the
property. He must have known itwas uninhabited, right, Yeah, yeah,

(38:37):
he had also also too, MelisaMattel the listeners, Judy and Cheryl
looked a lot, a lot.I mean, I really did, good
point looks so much alike good Point, Yes, yes, very much alike.
And when we were well we'll probablytalk more about it last time or

(38:58):
our next episode when we are talkingto the family. But you know,
Billy had a crush on Judy andCheryl and I you know when you first
saw Cheryl or I did, Ikind of stopped in my tracks. I
mean, she looks her and Judyare very search Those two things are big
enough for me of red flags.You know, you're like, okay,
so we've got location, we gotnew the family. Now we also found

(39:22):
out that through again just pure investigation, you know, calling around, trying
to talk to people, message people. You know, all of this doesn't
happen overnight. You know, ittakes a lot of effort to track people
down and usually get a lot ofnose or wrong person before you actually get
the right part. Yeah, thattoo. But you know I was able

(39:49):
to speak with, um, youknow, an individual who actually was abused
by Billy, and I mean sexuallyand physically. So you know, this
person had shared her story with meand her abuse, and Billy was very,
very violent, he had a violentstreak in him. You know.

(40:12):
One this person had said her oneof her family members encouraged her to leave
Billy because she was afraid that Billywould kill her. And so you know,
when we look at that again,now we're adding more flags here,
right, that someone who is physicallyviolent and has that capability, who basically

(40:34):
that this person said she was rapedand she was straight up, straight up
right, And so you know whenyou have that compos you know, when
someone's been raped and physically abused,that just heightens it for me. Right,
what do you guys think? Well, and can you explain why we

(40:55):
believe this person's story so much?It's not she didn't just call you up
and say yeah, you raped me, right, Like, can you explain
the extent that she went to tomeet with you guys? So this this
person was you know, involved ina relationship with Billy. And when I
was able to find her. Sheactually went through the day that he raped

(41:16):
her. How manipulative he was,how he was able to She was very
naive, She was a caregiver.She was what twenty years younger, Yeah,
yeah, twenty years younger than Billy. So that's a predator from in
my head, I think he likednaive and preyed on people, and that

(41:39):
Judy was nice. Yeah, andshe told you're saying that. She told
us specifically that when she looked atJudy and looked at her personality and her
profile and everything, she said,I'm almost a cookie cutter of her,
you know so, I mean,and you did, and she was.

(42:00):
When she explained herself to us abouthow she done things and how she done
you know what, all she didand everything, she was almost just like
Judy. She was young, shewas still innocent, she was still uh
you know, she was a caregiver. She just just took care of people
and put other people first in herlife instead of you know, herself,
And that's exactly the way Judy was. They were just they were almost identical.

(42:24):
So it just that's a to me. Was one of the huge red
flags that popped upright off the batwas was where we're at. But then
this, I mean, when whenshe talked about the similarities between the two
of them, it was it's unreal. Well, and a lot of women
will not talk to I wouldn't.I don't even say a lot. I'm

(42:46):
gonna say majority of women who havebeen sexually assaulted, they're not going to
talk to two strangers that they'd nevermet and exposed themselves like to have to
relive that traumatic event. But shedid that with you guys. Yeah,
so absolutely, that's that's really importantto consider too. And in terms of
you know, vetting her her recollectionsand stuff, most women would never know.

(43:09):
And you could tell that, youcould tell that her story wasn't made
up. I mean it was therewas it just you just it was.
It was believable, very believable.There was way too much detail, exactly
exactly. Yeah, she went intoa lot of detail. And from that
too, even talking with me,it brings up a lot. And she's
got goosebumps when she saw Judy's andlistened and was not familiar and she's like,

(43:32):
I could see it being me.And that's what I was told was
you got to leave him. Andshe has sought counseling all these years,
and even after talking to me,it's bringing up all of this and her
PTSD around the rape and you know, he would she would be on the
ground and he would be kicking thecrap out of her and she's protecting her

(43:55):
face. I mean just you know, kicking her anywhere he could find.
And so that alone says volumes inaddition to everything else that you know,
she had shared with us, andit took a lot of courage, like
and I think that's the thing too, is like these sources, some of

(44:16):
the they never came to us.I found them, so it's not like
they were looking or wanting. Eachperson has said you know, uh,
well, now that you think ofit, right, like here's this but
it never comes very easy. Andthis isn't something that people want to often

(44:37):
talk about, but they are talking. Yes, how did the family know
that he had a crush on Judyand Cheryl? I think he made it
not like he was always flirting withhim. So you know, we talked
about, you know, him rapingand physically abusing a girlfriend. The other
thing that Billy a red flag forBilly is that he abused drugs and alcohol.

(45:00):
He was a regular at the SunDance by there on Dallson that we've
often talked about. So he woulddrink a lot, you know, a
lots of jack and cokes. Hewas you know, I would say he's
an alcoholic based on everything I've heard. But he was also using drugs.
So there's different periods that we heardwhere you know, he would be okay

(45:22):
in the morning during the auction andthen go into the bathroom, come out
and just be so high that hecouldn't even function. Like he would say,
you got to run the auction,and he would leave. He just
was not able to you know,conduct the auction because he was so high.
So, you know a lot ofpeople had said, well, you

(45:43):
know, Billy was crazy. Wehear that all the time. Billy's crazy.
Billy's crazy, there's something wrong withthem. He did LSD or tried
to make LSD in college and itmessed him up right, And I do
think that's true. There definitely issome mental health issues with Billy. But
to know that he was often aregular at the Sun Dance Bar there on
Dallas, and that he was therealmost nightly, and you know he abused

(46:07):
drugs and alcohol, I think thatyou know, again is another risk for
him. So what you're saying isby the time of the bar clothes that
night, which was early, rightbecause of this ring girl contest or whatever,
say it closed or when do youguys think it closed? Seven seven
eight? One of our sources saidlike eight o'clock, eight thirty. Okay,

(46:28):
so he's probably pretty plastered by then. I'd say it's goodsible well,
inebriated enough, he's well on hisway. Yeah, yeah, So what
we found out is Billy was therethat night. You know, we have
source. He says, yeah,Billy was there. And I would say
Billy was there most nights, ifnot all, well, I would say
something like, oh, once amonth. I would go as far as

(46:50):
say he was there every night becausehe lived alone and he was a loaner.
And we talked about that too ondown here. But he had nothing
else to do but go down there, you know, right, So,
and he would often you know,he was very isolated himself and because of
his behavior as well. But youknow, he would sit at the bar
and just talk to himself, youknow, talk to people who weren't there,

(47:10):
be waving his arms. You know, we hear these stories of how
he just you know, would bethere and nobody paid any attention to him.
You know, nobody wanted to talkto him, engage with him.
He didn't have friends, you know, he was later on just really somebody
that nobody really wanted to interact with. Well, I think he was you

(47:31):
know, I think he was alot of lock and Jim correct me if
I'm wrong, but a lot oflike fit the profile of some of these
active shooters and stuff that people wouldjust thought, well, he just alf
his rocker. We're not gonna,you know, not worry about him too
much. But he just kind ofmaybe ended up doing something that was really,

(47:51):
really, really bad. That's agood analogy. I hadn't really thought
of that, but I think you'reright, because I mean, not to
profile, but no, a lotof active shooters do fall into a similar
category with each other, and thatis kind of loaners. They rejected from
society or their peers, and hekind of sounds like he was in a
similar situation and maybe something just ledhim to snap. Yeah it's possible,

(48:14):
yeah, yeah, And we kindof talked that because we know that the
bar closed early that night. Youknow, we do think we've closed that
gap in the timeline between when Judygot picked up by Chris cut right and
dropped off, And that is basedon another source that said, yeah,
I went in and they were closingearly to go to the Ring Girl competition.
So we feel like that has allkind of lined up and makes sense

(48:38):
to us at this point. Andso we were kind of wondering, well,
if you look at you know,opportunity isn't there for Billy? And
I would say, yes, Billywalked around at night. That's the other
thing a listener should note. Hewas often seen walking around at night,
and given his location to the petties, it's not I would say, far

(49:01):
fetched to think that the bar closedearly, he was not done drinking yet,
or he wanted to get on hisATV drinking go riding in the woods
and came upon Judy there. SoI think that that might have been that
perfect storm that we've talked about withthe fire, is that the circumstances lined

(49:22):
up, unfortunately in the wrong way. And you know, is is that
possible that he showed up and heknows Judy and Judy knows Billy, and
again Judy was always nice to him. She's not rude, she's naive,
she's friendly, that's the Petty family, and so he could have taken that

(49:43):
the wrong way. Or no,hey, she's by herself, you know,
given that he has the capacity,you know, to rape and physically
abuse women, we've known that he'shad a crush on her, right,
but we've also been told he washe could change his person finality, like
he could actually be very charismatic andfriendly. And yes, maybe he and

(50:05):
again we're just throwing theories out there, you know, but maybe he came
upon Judy and realized she was insome sort of you know, I don't
want to say medical crisis, butlike knew something was wrong with her,
maybe because she'd walked all those milesand low blood sugar, and he knew
that the farm was uninhabited, sothere's probably no food. Who knows,
he could have run home and gotfood and water for her, you know,

(50:28):
playing the nice guy, but usingit as a ruse to get in
her good graces or get in thathouse. Yeah. Absolutely, And I
think that's an important gen that youmentioned, that correlation between that and when
the rape happened, Like it was, let me help you, here's food,
here's water, yeah, that's exactlywhat she told us, said he

(50:49):
did as he brought her, youknow, food and stuff, and right
his previous victim will just say,yeah, not Judie. But she definitely
is a victim. She absolutely wellsurvivor. I prefer the word survivor,
but but yes, yeah, hevictimized her. Yes, And he definitely
had mental health issues. You know, I'm not discounting that. I think
you know, from his LSD useand then the drugs and the alcohol,

(51:15):
he definitely had this kind of splitpersonality. But what's so interesting about Billy
is that everyone says he was crazy, talked to himself, he was talking
to about aliens shrowing up in hisbackyard. But the second thing out of
their mouth was he was extremely smart. Yeah, extremely intelligent, and that

(51:37):
he could flip it on and offwhere he could be talking to himself,
waving his hands talking and as someonesaid, hey, Billy, he would
snap out of it and he wouldbe able to have a normal conversation.
And so I wonder did he playthat up for his own kind of benefit

(51:58):
where people would be like, oh, he wouldn't do anything, he's crazy,
you know, and everyone in thiscase that we've talked to. Even
from the beginning, everyone thinks Billydid it because everyone thinks he walks at
night, he's crazy, he livesright there, and we kind of were
like, well, that's not enough, right, But now when we've actually
investigated and looked at Billy, youfind a whole hornets nest of flags.

(52:22):
Yeah, circumstantial. But there's agreat analogy with regards to circumstantial evidence which
comes from the Cold Justice Show.For people that watch that, it's Kelly,
right Siegler, that's the one ofthe Love House. Yeah, she's
amazing. She made this awesome analogy. One she goes, so, if
you have one pencil in your hand, you can break it pretty easily,

(52:42):
right, And that's the same withone piece of circumstantial evidence. But she
goes, when you've got a handfulof pencils, you can't break them.
And she's like, we have tolook at cases like that too, because
we don't always have you know,this solid DNA or fingerprints or forensic evidence.
But if there's enough circumstantial piece isthat line up and you can't refute
them, then you have to followthose You have to at least look at

(53:06):
it, right. That's a that'san awesome like you said, and also
analogy. I never thought about it, but that's awesome. I hadn't either
until I saw one of our episodes. I love that show. That show.
She's so great. Yeah. WhatI love about that show is that
most of the cases is all circumstantiala lot of it because they're so old.
They're cold cases. Yeah, they'rethey're most like the hardest of the

(53:29):
hard Yeah. And that's what we'redealing with Judy. Yes. So at
this point we're not again, we'renot saying Billy did it, but we
definitely can't rule him out because youknow, we went over a means mode
of an opportunity with regards to Mitch, and we can go through it with
Billy. But like he had allthree yeah, yeah, so we have
to consider that he had all threeand he had also had all three in

(53:51):
several different ways. M So,yes, yeah, I agree. And
the other thing for listeners to knowis that, you know, we know
that Billy actually stole stole property fromthe Petty farm. So there was reports
that you know, in two thousandand eight where mister Petty saying, hey,
I'm being stolen from by the rightsand the shreck and goss and they're

(54:12):
taking my stuff and all these things. And mister Petty reconcate. You know,
his sawmill was stolen from his propertyand you found it over at Billy's.
Okay, so what what a bigladder? Right? Yeah, he
stole it was like a big extensionladder. And they found it at a
at a salvage yard that had beenchopped up in small pieces and stuff and
sold a scrap metal. And here'sand here's one of the crazy things about

(54:37):
this. Um. We were talkingto mister Petty the other day and he
was talking about all this, aboutthe stealing that he had and all that,
and I said, I so letme ask you a question. I
said, when did it all wasstealing? Stop? And they sat there
for a little bit and him andhis wife and his daughters all talked,
and they and all of them prettymuch at the same time, said when

(54:58):
Judy died, you know. Andthen Melissa and I were talking to you,
and she said, well, there'sthere was nothing left to steal.
And I said, Melissa, Isaid, there was tons of stuff left
to steal. I said, becauseif they were taking all this stuff and
selling it at a scrapyard. Lookat the pictures and look at what's still
laying up there. You've got oldwashers and dryers that were in the house

(55:19):
and other pieces of you know,of scrap iron and metal and stuff.
That's all it's up there. Andit just suddenly stops. I said that
they were that was a perfect opportunityfor him to steal, and it just
stopped. And you could probably speakto the you know, to the reason
why it stopped. But a lotof times they don't go back to the
to the crime scene, right,That's actually very true. Yeah, that's

(55:45):
in cases where a victim's body ismoved. Majority of the time, the
bodies moved to a location where thekiller or killers or perpetrators never pass that
area in their daily life or dailyactivity because it's psychological. Right, It's
like you're gonna if you kill agirl and dumper and a ditch, but

(56:06):
you have to try to buy thatditch every day, it's gonna like it's
gonna mess with you mentally. Yeah. So yeah, I think that's a
fair well and in a fair wayto put it, that they don't want
to return to the scene of thecrime. Yeah. Well, in another
red flag for me, we goback to the very part of this,
or first part of this where wewere talking about Billy. We know,
we know he committed suicide in twentyfifteen. Now that's what seven years after

(56:30):
Judy died, a little over sixyears. You know, that could have
been something that weighed on his mindall those years. And then with the
drugs and alcohol and everything that thathe was taken that we know he was
taken and him you know, itjust student student, stud till it finally
bowled over. He snapped, likelike you said earlier, you know,

(56:51):
and that might have been what causedhim to kill himself. I don't know.
I'm not saying that's what it was. I'm not saying that Billy did
it, but exactly again, likewe were saying, you've got to take
all these bullet points in these redflags that we have and look at them
all together and say it hits yourpointing in a certain direction. Yeah,

(57:12):
and I would say too. Theone thing to know about Billy's suicide is,
as I was sitting here the otherday thinking, you know, that's
very close to the anniversary of Judy'sdeath. You know, he killed himself
in January twenty fourth, right,and she was February sixth. Yeah,
that's just a little over a week, week and a half something like that.

(57:32):
Yeah, and I know that,you know, there was always lots
of investigations or press newspaper articles aroundJudy's death, and you know, I'm
curious and looking at you know,was this a year in twenty fourteen when
it picked up again? You know, the family has been advocating for you
know, fifteen years, and theyalways are trying, you know, getting

(57:53):
people to help them. So itwas twenty fourteen a year where he felt
the pressure of just no one talkedto him or interviewed him, but just
the conversation and have it brought upagain, you know, have it being
on the news, have it beingin the paper, you know, just
a reminder of what happened and whathe did. You know, was that

(58:13):
the trigger and he was done?Yeah? But who knows if some reporter
wasn't poking around for a story twoweeks prior, you know, to the
anniversary and came across Billy and saidsomething that triggered him, or even asked
for an interview. Because he's essentiallya neighbor, you know, so I
could have been a reporter that wasrunning up and down Deer Walk Highway to
those neighboring properties trying to interview theneighbors. Who knows. I mean,

(58:37):
it could be something as little asthat. So, you know, we
kind of talked about him being extremelysmart in his personality changes. And you
know, one of the things thatyou know, we heard was from one
a source of someone who was like, you know what I would tell people,
you don't want to mess with himbecause he's crazy as shit, but
he's smart enough to get away withit. And you know, when we

(58:59):
talked to some other sources, youknow, and talked to the survivor that
he raped an abuse, she said, he's super smart. He knows how
to cover his ass, he knowshow to be manipulative, he knows how
to play up his kind of crazy, but that he very much would She
has no doubt that he would nothave killed Judy well and not felt bad

(59:22):
about it at all. That's prettypowerful. So yeah, Yeah, the
other thing to know about Billy Night, John, I'm curious to hear what
you have to say on this iswe've heard that he had really, really
bad personal hygiene. He did nottake care of himself. He would not
shower or bathe for god knows howlong. You know, A couple of

(59:45):
people said, like you could smellhim coming a block and a half away,
like just really bad personal hygiene.That's probably why he probably was isolated.
But is there a profile for thatin regards to hygiene. I thought
that there was that bit into somebodylike Billy. Bad personal hygiene can go

(01:00:09):
along with certain types of mental illness. And again I'm not stereotyping. It's
just a fact where it is nota priority to some people. It.
Honestly, he may have enjoyed beinga loner. Some people just do.
Not bathing is one way to keeppeople away from you, So I could
have actually been a subconscious way tocontinue being a loner, being to himself,

(01:00:34):
doing what he wants to do.Nobody's going to bother him, no
one's paying attention to him. Hemight have enjoyed a little bit of that
aspect. I don't know, butit is hard to go to a bar
if you smell that bad, orshow up at someone's door and try to
get in their door. But Ijust I don't know enough about that habit
of his. I guess, butit's interesting that more than one person has

(01:00:54):
pointed out there's probably some validity toit. Oh yeah, for sure,
we've we've heard that quite a bit. And you know, the other thing
to know is that Billy obviously Idon't know who doesn't out there, you
know, West Virginia, but hehad a gun, you know, he
had access to gain something. You'dhave sometimes a gun on him or in
his truck or in his house.So you know, as we mentioned earlier,

(01:01:17):
is it possible that she was shot? You know, we didn't and
we weren't able to get that,you know, and so that that's kind
of like all of our red flags. I mean, we kind of summarized
it all for you all, butyou know when we wrote it out,
the list is really long with thesecircumstantial things that we're hearing. So,

(01:01:38):
you know, I want to askanybody out there listening, you know,
if you know Billy, if youknow Mitch, if you know the right
family, the Shrek and Guss family, if you know anything that you know
could help us, please reach outto us. You can remain anonymous.
You know, Again, it doesn'thave to be something that you know one

(01:02:00):
hundred percent right, or you mightthink it's little or you know, actually
things to refute what we just said. You know, actually no, that's
not what I know, or ofthis person. We take all of that
into consideration because we're not again sayingthat these two individuals were involved, but
we were saying that, you know, based on everything we've heard in the

(01:02:21):
flags, you know, it's verypossible that one of them are. We
have to look at it, wehave to, but like you just said,
we're not looking to to prove thistheory, where it's actually better to
disprove it and be able to alibysomebody and remove them from the list.
That actually makes the job easier.Yes, So in either direction, whatever

(01:02:44):
information you may have that points ineither direction innocence are guilt, we don't
care, you know, bring itto us, you guys, please see,
we don't. What I was goingto say is, if you've got
proof that puts Billy somewhere else thatnight, if he was shopping with you
or whatever, let us know,because we can take this and we can
say okay, then we can takeit and do with it. We can
start focusing somewhere else exactly. Yeah, right, And so I just kind

(01:03:07):
of want to end the episode.I wanted to say all that just so
that with the red flags that pleasecome forward if you've heard things, know
things, and again you know,we're not looking for you to be one
hundred percent accurate or know for sure. That's our job. Send me even
the rumors, because there's always sometruth in rumors and I track it down.
I'm like, what's a I'm thedog with the bone. Give it

(01:03:30):
to me and then I'll figure itout, you know. So we wanted
to say that, but let's justkind of wrap up the episode going through
the means and motive and opportunity forBilly, and you can kind of see
the difference or hear the difference betweenMitch and Billy in regards to the means,
you know, motive and opportunity.You want to start it out with

(01:03:50):
the means, Alan, Yeah,one of the first things that jumps out
is as far as it means iswe feel like he had the ability to
do it to kill Judy, ishe'd been violent to other females in the
past, and we know that fora fact. We've had people tell us
say he'd done this to me also, and he lived, like you said,

(01:04:11):
Melissa, half a mile or lessfrom the Petty farm through the woods,
and it was very accessible. Youcan get it on Google Earth and
see the the paths and the andthe how the fields are laid out and
everything else, and how just howclose it is to where Judy actually was
found. And he knew the backway in and out of there. Him

(01:04:33):
and Judy knew each other. Wetalked about him having a crush on her
and her sister Cheryl. You know, he may have drove up there to
steal something or went over there ona four wheeler to steal something. And
and and that's another thing that wetalked about with mister Petty. With some
of the stuff that they stole wasvery large and I don't care who you

(01:04:54):
are, you're not going to carryit, you know, very far through
the woods like that, especially upand down them hills and and uh and
valleys and all that stuff. It'sjust it's not going to happen. So,
you know, he could have wentover there own a four wheeler and
just surprised her and say, hey, what are you doing, and then
he just saw an opportunity for himto assault her or whatever. And then

(01:05:16):
once he'd done that, he feltlike he could, you know, he
needed to do something about it,and he killed her and and then had
to get rid of the body.So you know that's the meaning that you
know, as far as the meanshe had, he definitely had the means
in several different ways. Yeah,he had the access and the knowledge and
the capability. Yeah, so forsure. Yeah, do you think that

(01:05:41):
you know, when Billy had mentionedthat Mitch killed Judy and that the right
brothers helped cover it up and sether on fire, do you think that
Billy could do this crime on hisowner? Do you think yet? Oh?
I think he could do it onhis own. Absolutely. You know,
you know, people people talked aboutBilly not being a very big guy,
but when you're when you're adrenaline's pumping, you can do a lot of

(01:06:01):
stuff. You know, dragging adragging a body, you know, down
down a flight of stairs into acellar. You know, we've talked about
that on past episodes. Once youstart downhill with that body, that the
gravity is going to help you outto get her in there. And Gen
you can speak to this. Butas far as the body position, the
way she was laying, the waythey found her, it just it just

(01:06:24):
tells me that they pulled her downthere and just later in that position.
She didn't. It wasn't an accidentalfall, It wasn't an explosion that knocked
her down in there. Somebody placedher in that position. Yeah, because
she's not like, of course we'vetalked like for hours on end about this,
but like if she's tripped down thestairs, part of her feet her

(01:06:46):
legs would still be on the stairsexactly, And far as my understanding,
none of her bones or bone fragmentswere found on the stairs or in that
corner. So yes, and she'sin the corner because someone needed to get
back. Oh yeah, you can. You can look at the at the
drawing that the that the fire investigatorsmade that were the initial investigators showed her

(01:07:10):
head being at an angle away fromthe steps or the stairs, pointed towards
the northeast, and her feet wereover towards the southwest right, you know,
close to the stairs, but downinside the inside the room itself.
So there's to me, there's justno way for a trip and a fall
for her to end up where shewas at. She would be more center

(01:07:31):
of the room and not over atan angle. Yeah. So plus you
can't account for the fire starting,right, that's right, right, any
you know I've gone through that's somethingelse. As far as the fire goes,
I've gone through any accidental you know, there was the thought of suicide
and all that. I've gone through, every every scenario in my mind.
And for that to happen, thefire had to have been started first.

(01:07:56):
Yeah, because she's not going toshoot herself, she's not gonna hang herself,
she's not going to do any anythingelse die and in a fire start,
it's just not it's I don't believethat's going to happen that way.
Yeah. So as far as themeans, As far as the means,
I think that Billy absolutely had themeans and knew the knowledge and everything else
on how to do it, whereto do it and all that. That's

(01:08:17):
true. He would know about theseller, Yeah, definitely, you know,
definitely if he'd been on that farmstealing and stuff before, and you
know he'd been I mean he livedthere all his life. Uh, you
know, he'd been in and outof there before. There's I mean,
there's no doubt, right, Andif he walked around at night or atv
in the bar closed, you knowthere's just you know, we could put

(01:08:38):
him there more than met Yes,absolutely, it does. Yeah, yeah,
And because he can go in andout of again. Everyone said crazy,
but very smart and very intelligent,you know. And I think that
based on what we've heard and therape and all these things, he would
switch so he could do the crimeand then all of a sudden figure out

(01:09:00):
what he needed to do to tryto cover his ass or make it right.
If that, if he did dothis, you know, so I
think he himself could have done it. Now. Is it possible that he's
told other people besides you know thissource possible? Well, it's you know,
you and I talked about that beforetoo, Melissa, while we were
up there, we were discussing allthis. He could have told people the

(01:09:25):
day after that he'd done it,and people were like, that's Billy talking
out of his head again. Youknow, you got it, so you
know, people just pull it off. So if you're out there and he
did tell you that, let usknow, Yeah, please let us know
said anything about it? Yeah,to hear what did he say in a
couple of days after words? Exactly? And then Jenny, you want to

(01:09:48):
take the motive, I mean motivestough, and you don't have to prove
motive and a court of law,but it's pretty much it's pretty difficult to
get a conviction on murder or closea case on murder without something about motive.
If it was Billy, my toptheory is that he was wandering around
at night like he was reported todo, saw a light on in the

(01:10:10):
house there was electricity, Judy wouldhave had to turn a light on,
and he got curious and maybe Idon't want to say it peeping tom,
but maybe saw her through a windowor whatever, like, oh my gosh,
what she's doing up here, youknow whatever, and then craft's a
little planned to get in the house. And from there it's hard to tell,
you know, I mean, orshe could have come upon him stealing

(01:10:30):
and then that escalated. So there'sa couple most likely potential motives, but
it's hard to speak to it.I mean, it's hard to speculate.
I should say, is the rightword? We just don't know. And
I think our best, our bestavenue here is can we put him there
closer than anybody you know of opportunityto know that she was up there and

(01:10:54):
come upon her. And he oftenhad hallucinations and paranoia. So, you
know, is it possible he cameupon Judy and he thought that she was
somebody else, right, or thathe had told our source that quote she
knew too much. So when sheknows too much, what does that even
mean? You know, I don'tthink Judy knew anything. And his head

(01:11:15):
and his head was it the alienscoming? You know, where was his
state of mind at that? That'sfair. So you know, the last
thing that we're getting to is theopportunity. So as we mentioned earlier,
you know, the bar closed earlyon that night that she died, so
Billy would have, you know,had to go home, and maybe he

(01:11:38):
wasn't ready to stop drinking. Hedid stay and drink at the bar almost
regularly, so he could have saidI'm not done yet, decided to go
walk at night, which he did, or drive his ATV through the past,
and then of course came upon Judy, like Jen said, and Judy
was alone at the farm without anycell phone or any way to get a

(01:11:59):
hold of anybody for any kind ofhelp. The other big thing here that
we talked about a little bit isthat Duty may not have been in a
typical state of mind. Due toher low blood sugar and the walk.
You know, she just walked whatten miles eleven miles, so this again
made her probably feel very weak,very Maybe she's hungry her blood sugars down.

(01:12:24):
There's no real food you know,or drinks there at the house.
Water you know, she could havedrink the water, but I heard not
to drink the water in Parkersburg,So I don't know, I don't think
she'd want to do that. Justdrink the beer or what. Yeah,
yeah, well we had experience withthe water down. Heart is not well

(01:12:45):
with regards to opportunity, you knowthat Also the opportunity also encompasses. Did
the person have the time to dothis where they weren't expected to be somewhere,
So like, I don't really reallyhad a job aside from the auction
house thing. But like, obviouslyhe didn't have a job where he had
to be that he had to beout that night, right he was.

(01:13:06):
He didn't make plans with friends whereif he didn't show up, someone would
think it was weird. No one'sout checking on him, so that also
gave him the opportunity to do this. Plus he had the knowledge that no
one else is going to show upon that property while whatever's going on,
like he's not going to get caught, right and from from all everything that
we've heard from anybody, that's allhe did was run the auction house.

(01:13:30):
OKAYI bonn and selling Jump, youknow, stealing and selling Jump. Yeah,
I mean, and he could barelyeven do that. You know,
he couldn't function. I mean hewould have to go home and you know,
auctioneer would have to finish it becausehe just got so you know high,
he had to leave. So that'sa good point. He didn't have

(01:13:50):
anywhere to be, and you know, I think he had the ability to
be like, okay, now I'vegot to you know, what I heard
was he would then be able tosay I've got to get myself out of
this now and have really no remorseabout doing it. So, you know,
Alan, I want to know fromyou too, how or why did

(01:14:12):
Judy end up in the cellar andnot burned in the house. I know
that you we've all kind of talkedabout that, and while we were there,
I'll go first. I guess youknow, one of the thoughts that
I had was, you know,because the altercation, whatever happened, happened
outside, not in the house.And so you know, again we're just
trying to play through scenarios of howthis would happen if it was Billy or

(01:14:34):
Mitch or somebody else, you know, if the lights are on, because
she made it up there, whichwe believe she did, turned on the
lights getting herself settled. There werebeds there in the house and blankets and
things like that that she could spendthe night, and you know, someone
comes upon her. If we're saying, you know, let's play the scenario

(01:14:55):
Billy. You know, Billy wouldbe curious, like, why is somebody
in the petty house? Right?Like that's odd? And the lights are
on. So he goes to thedoor, knocks on the door. Of
course Judy comes, but she's notgoing to let him in. Maybe she
steps out, yeah you know,um and closes the door and starts walking
and trying to walk him off.She's going to be nice to him.
Maybe, like you said, Jen, maybe he offered to bring her food

(01:15:17):
or have her come, you know, go with him to her to his
house and get food. Sure,you know, any of those things could
have happened, and then he couldhave expected more or wanted more and had
to crush on her, and thenit went sideways from there. So you
know, I believe she was burnedin the cellar because that was the easiest

(01:15:39):
place based on where the crime happened. You're not going to try to bring
her back into that, I agree, And yeah, you know, you
and I talked about that the otherday. I could even I could even
go as far to say that thewhole thing may have started in the house,
you know, if if he wentin and maybe the a fight or
something like that started and you runand tried to get away from them and

(01:16:02):
and fell or maybe whoever it wasshot or in the bike or something like
that, trying to get away.And I think that the actual physical murder
of itself, whatever happened, happenedoutside the house, you know, close
to the cellar. And again thiswas a spur of the moment. You
know, they just pulled her downin that cellar and and somehow lit it

(01:16:27):
on fire, and you know whenwhen you know that far, But I
just I don't. I just again, I don't see this being a long
thought out murder, you know,like you like you hear on TV shows
and stuff where or like a serialkiller type thing. It's it's not.
This was a crime of opportunity thathappened on a spur of the moment.

(01:16:50):
And even the fire was a crimeof opportunity that happened on a spur of
the moment. And like we talkedabout, Billy was smart enough to to
carry off all this stuff out Andagain not saying that he did it,
I'm not. Um, you know, he he may call for help or
something. I don't know, butI really don't think so. I think

(01:17:10):
he'd done it. I think ifhe'd done it, and he done it
by himself, you know, rightthere, and and it just happened really
really quick. And even without likea gun or anything like that. There
are tons of stuff out there thatyou could use to, let's say,
hit somebody in the hat. Wewe talked about this, that her skull
was fragment. I mean, therewas a pieces so there's a brick.

(01:17:34):
Yeah, the fire could have donepart of that. But you know something,
I mean, like you said,there's there's plenty of things laying around
out there that it could have doneit. Uh, you know, rock
or brick, a piece of metal, pipe or or anything, you know.
And uh, and then her skullwas already fractured and fragment didn't they
pulled her down the stairs and youknow, and then burner and and then

(01:17:56):
we found the fragments from it,which which to me kind of makes sense
because other bones that were still thereintact it hadn't weren't fractured like the skull
was, so that could It's verypossible, you know that That's something that
happened for sure. Yeah, Andblunt force trauma is often a result of
a spur of the moment. Yeah, that situation, that es, That's

(01:18:21):
exactly what I was fixing to say. Blunt force trauma to the head or
something like that is always a spurof the moment crime up, you know,
an opportunity. So yeah, Iagree, And you know, she
could have had a weapon herself ofgrabbing something to show a defender shop and
that I was used. Yeah,you know. All right, so what's

(01:18:43):
next? Right, Everyone's like,oh my gosh, I'm sure our listeners
are like overwhelmed, like holy moly, uh, welcome to our world.
In the last two months non stop, Yes, and it continues to be
a whirldwind. We are getting informationfrom people again. You can Facebook message
me, you can email me.Uh, you can stay anonymous. We

(01:19:08):
have a seventy five hundred dollar rewardtax free, yep. You know,
if it leads to an arrest,well, you know, given that some
people in our case that we're lookingat are dead, you know, if
we can prove beyond a reasonable doubt, you know, and use a different
um what's it called allen exceptional circumstantialevidence to close a case. Yes,

(01:19:30):
if exceptionally closed exceptionally or exceptional circumstances. So so what we're talking about earlier?
Uh so if yeah, yeah,if that occurs, someone brings forth
the information that results in the casebeing officially closed, will discuss the reward

(01:19:51):
situation and probably pay it out.So it's not something that we thought about
when we first set up the rewardfund, but we'll definitely talk about it.
Yeah. So yeah, who wouldhave thought we'd get here? So
yeah, exactly know what exactly?Yeah? Yeah, So what is next?
Of course, so we're our nextepisode that we're going to record next
week that'll drop is our trip toactually Parkersburg. So Ellen and I made

(01:20:15):
the trip to Parkersburg last weekend,and we did a lot of awesome things
there. Boots on the ground,as Jen says, and we made a
lot of stops at people's houses toget information, and people slam the doors
in our face. We didn't geta lot of cooperation, and we'll tell
you who they were and why andeven play some recordings that we have,

(01:20:39):
and so you know, we wantto make sure that we're putting this information
out there because again, if youhave any information about Mitchell Wright, about
the Right family, about Billy,Shrek and Goss, the Shrek and Goss
family, or anyone else you know, anyone else that you have heard things
or have said things or a rumors, let us know, because then we

(01:21:00):
will add that to our list andkeep tracking people down exactly. And there
might be a few critics out therelike, oh, you guys are being
too harsh or how dare you say? Who slammed the door in your face?
No, if this was your lovedone who was murdered and cremated,
essentially, you would want a teamjust like this working your loved ones case.

(01:21:24):
And we have what's you know,Melissa Alan justin mostly but like the
team has played very nice for avery long time and given everybody the opportunity
to talk anonymously, and if youwant to ignore the team or not cooperate,
then guess what you may get calledout. So sorry, not sorry,

(01:21:45):
because this is about a murder caseand it's extremely serious that we get
to the bottom of it. Yeah, so we'll definitely go through that.
And you know, we gave peopleopportunities to talk and actually gave them opportunities
to help that their loved one hadno yes, you know, had nothing
to do with this murder, andthey refused to talk. So yeah,

(01:22:06):
you know, that's interesting to me. But I won't get into all that
now because there's so much more togo with that. But next time for
listening. What I said, nexttime, Next time on Safe Haven?
Who Slammed the Doors? Yep?And so ye as you as we go,

(01:22:28):
look for more ticks. So thankyou all for listening again. We'll
be back next week with another newepisode and again you can find us on
Facebook, you know, safe HavenThe Unsolved of Judith Petty. Please make
sure to share the podcast in ourFacebook because you never know who knows something.
And I guess we'll We'll see youall next week. Slee you guys,

(01:22:49):
Thanks guys, it's been great.Thank you Bye. Bye t