E4 - The Investigation

In this episode, Justin and Melissa discuss the investigation that followed Judy's death. They also share some information that the team gathered from various interviews.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Here on the safe Haven Podcast.Any names mentioned should not be considered as
suspects unless officially stated as such bylaw enforcement. Any opinions during interviews on
this podcast or the opinions of theinterviewee and don't reflect the opinions of the
safe Haven Podcast or the AMU ColdCase Team. Everyone is innocent until proven

(00:20):
guilty in a court of law.On February sixth, two thousand and eight,
forty eight year old Judith Petty lefther grandmother's house to walk to a
library three blocks away to return somebooks. After that, we don't know
what happened. The family searched forher throughout the night into the following morning.

(00:44):
The next day, her father drovethirteen miles to their family farm to
find the entire property engulfed in flames. When the fire was out, that's
when they found Judas remains in thecellar. The medical examiner said she was
dead before the fire started. Thelocal sheriff at the time said he knew
it was a homicide and investigated itas such. Now, fourteen years later,

(01:11):
law enforcement says that Judith must havetaken her own life or died of
natural causes, and there's nothing toinvestigate. Welcome back to safe Haven.

(01:32):
This episode's four where we talk aboutsome details of the case and a little
bit about the investigation as well.I am joined again by Melissa. Melissa,
how are you doing tonight? I'mcold and here in Florida it's like
fifty three degrees out. I'm likefreezing, and you're in Indiana right or

(01:53):
by Indiana. Yeah, I'd doabout anything for fifty degrees right now,
to be honest. I think lastnight it was when chill was nine,
which is unusually cold for November,but supposed to be in the fifties or
high forties for Thanksgiving. So that'sa good thing, and so the listeners

(02:16):
know we're going to take that weekoff, you know, spend up time
with our families and stuff like that. Yeah, and I'm from Illinois.
I remember November Usually there's maybe somesnow by Thanksgiving, but not always.
So I'm glad that's going to beat least decent weather for everyone flying in
or out. Yeah, it's usuallyhit or miss with the snow around Thanksgiving

(02:37):
for sure. At least we're notin New York around here right now.
Yeah, Yeah, I'm cool withthat, all right. So Melissa,
do you want to go ahead andget us started with some of this information.
Yeah. So we left off lastepisode just kind of reviewing the timeline
that Judy took from the information thatwe had you know, so far.

(02:59):
But we want to go a littlefurther in this episode and talk about the
actual investigation and discussed you know,We've talked to people and so we just
kind of want to give listeners anupdate on more about the investigation and try
to help us tighten things up aroundthe investigation. So we did. I
mentioned in the last episode that anindividual by the name of Chris Cutwright picked

(03:20):
up Judy, and I have spokenwith Chris and Chris remembers that he picked
up Judy on Jericho Road, headedmore towards Deerwalk Highway. So I know
in the last episode we said thatwe thought she was picked up on the
intersection of Almond Road and Jericho Road. However, Chris says that that's not

(03:42):
true. He actually picked her upfurther down the road on Jericho, like
going up towards the hill. Sohe had driven past that intersection and then
found Judy walking on that side ofthe road. So he said that she
was walking with traffic, so shewasn't walking against traffic. She had no
flashlight or other means of light toshow like that she would have been on

(04:03):
the road. So really, whenChris was leaving the sun Donner Bar,
again he doesn't remember the time,it would have been really really dark out
and there was what justin I thinkthe one percent moon coverage that Jenn was
able to find. Yeah, andit would have been dark. But I
will say this, like after anamount of time, if the sun went

(04:24):
down around six o'clock, I meanher eyes were going to adjust for sure.
But still for other people driving onthe road, you know, that's
a whole different story. And youknow he said he left Sundowners Bar early
because of the tough Man contest,So if Judy was walking and he actually,

(04:45):
I will say Chris met the sistersout and did a video and he
took them from the Sundowners Bar tothe spot where he picked her up.
So we do have video that we'lllook at releasing. Just show you just
really how windy these roads were,how there's a lot of blind spots and
nine o'clock at night, there's nowhereto walk, There is no sidewalk.
It was a really dangerous road tobe walking that late at night. So

(05:10):
when I talked to Chris, Iasked him, was there anything specific that,
you know, they talked about inthe car, you know, how
did she seem? He couldn't providemuch of any information. He said that
it was a very short trip andthey did talk, so he said that
she wasn't crying, she seemed okay. He had just pulled over and asked

(05:31):
her if she needed a ride becausehe thought it was another individual who lived
at, you know, the housethat he had stopped in front of,
and thought that she and her boyfriendgot into an argument and whatnot. So
he said, Judy said yeah,please and got into the truck. So
that's what Chris remembers. The onepart that doesn't make much sense, and

(05:54):
I'd be interested to hear what youhave to say to Justin is that Chris
that he drove her to the intersectionof Deer Walk Highway and told her that
if she's going to the right,it's meeting going away, that she'd have
to get out of the car becausehe wasn't going that way. And she
said, no, I live rightup there, and tells him, you
know, when to stop right atthe gate. So from the point that

(06:16):
he picked her up, it wouldhave only been one point three miles to
the farm, so she was almostthere. And why say to her you're
picking her up? Why because it'scold out, it's dark, it's unsafe,
and you drive a little bit,maybe point eight miles and then you
say, hey, if you're notgoing this way, then get out.

(06:40):
What do you think? I thinkthat doesn't really make much sense, to
be honest with you. It's youknow, like we were talking, it's
windy, it's cold out. Healready had picked her up, and then
to drive her like a mile andjust be like, well, I gotta
turn left and you got to goright. And that's assuming that he did

(07:02):
not know where she lived, correct, So it just doesn't really sit right
with me. It doesn't make muchsense, right, But I mean that
could have been how it went down. I don't know. Yeah, I
just have questions like, if you'reonly going you know, one point three
miles, let's say, and thenyou're the reason you stopped and asked this

(07:25):
lady for a ride was because itwas cold and dark and dangerous, But
yeah, you're gonna say, hey, if you're not going to the left
where I'm going. You gotta getout now, So she would still then
have those factors cold, dark,dangerous, and he's gonna say, okay,
bye. I mean, why wouldn'the say where do you live?
Or where are you going before sheeven got into the car? Or yeah,

(07:46):
if you're actually being caring and notwanting to drop a lady off in
the dark. I mean, whenyou say you know where do you live?
I can drive you there. Imean, why have her get out?
It makes absolutely no sense because Imean it's only like what half a
mile from the end of Jericho Roadto the farm or to the gate entrance.

(08:07):
The thing that's weird is that sheonly had one point eight miles left
to walk, and then she wouldhave been at the farm. And this
is apparently, according to all thestories after she had already walked eleven or
twelve miles. So I don't itjust it really doesn't make sense to me.

(08:31):
And he says he just dropped heroff at the driveway and drives away.
Yeah, and then he says hecan't remember when he got home.
So it's like it's and don't getme wrong, you know, it's fourteen
years ago. I'm sure some minutedetails can be forgotten. That's that part
isn't a huge thing, But thewhole trip and picking her up not going

(08:52):
to drop her off another half miledown the road, just really doesn't make
too much sense. I don't know, she had apparently already been walking twelve
of my house on a dangerous road, So he's going to drop her off
on a dangerous He picked her upbecause he's, oh, yeah she was.
It was cold, she was ona dangerous road, all right,
So you're going to drive her amile and a half and then just drop

(09:13):
her back off on the dangerous roadwhen it's cold out. So and that's
where, you know, it's kindof my question comes in. Just like
you said, I mean, shereally didn't have that much further to go,
and for her to accept a ridefrom a stranger from all that we
know, she didn't know Chris.And Chris himself says he doesn't know,
Judy, I don't go. Idon't know if I would if I'm almost

(09:35):
there. I don't know as afemale, if I would accept a ride
when I'm that close. Well inaccording to report, she already turned two
of them down earlier on in theday, So it really doesn't sit well
with me. It doesn't make toomuch sense. That's I think I can't
get passing him kind of giving herthat ultimatum at that fork, and that's

(09:58):
the reason you picked. So.Yeah, So Chris was staying at a
guy named Tom Sands house and saysthat Tom and his daughter, who was
in middle school at the time,were sound asleep. Now, let's say
this is around eight thirty to ninethirty window. Tom doesn't remember the time,

(10:18):
and he had a room upstairs,so he wouldn't have even heard Chris
come in probably, But apparently Tom'sdaughter was sleeping on the couch, so
Chris would have had to walk pasther, you would think, you know,
depending on the layout of the house. And she was in middle school
at the time. So in thenotes here you pointed out a very good

(10:41):
point Because I have two kids inmiddle school right now, it's eight o'clock
at night, and I can guaranteeif I called them at ten thirty,
they're still going to be awake,right So I don't know too many kids
in middle school that are sleeping,unless maybe she was sick or had to
get up earlier. Like that,I could see that, yeah, and

(11:03):
it was a Wednesday night. Yeah, it was a Wednesday night. And
what got me was that, youknow, Tom is up on a different
floor, So I get that hemight have been asleep and not heard.
But a middle schooler, I'm inthe stain boat with you and my daughter.
She's not in bed on a schoolnight until like ten or ten thirty.
It's like, go to bed yourschool tomorrow. And especially if you're
sleeping on the couch, I don'tknow how you wouldn't hear somebody come in.

(11:24):
So that's kind of his alibi.So I got asked that today on
the Facebook group. What's Chris's alibias alixibi is that he went home and
everybody was asleep, and nobody elsecan confirm he came home, what time
he came home exactly. The storyof where he picked her up at has

(11:46):
changed, if I'm not mistaken,correct correct. So the family had heard
again, in fourteen years, they'veheard so many stories, but they had
heard that she was picked up atAlmond in Jericho. So that's where we
started. Now, when I talkedto Chris, he couldn't remember where he
picked her up, and he said, no, I don't think it was

(12:07):
at an intersection. So we actuallyasked him would he'd be willing to drive
us the route that he took topick up when he picked up Judy,
and he said sure. So heactually started at the Sundowners and he went
and in the video, the familysays this is the intersection and it was
one point three miles more up theroad that he actually drove, but he

(12:28):
didn't stop where he really picked herup. He couldn't remember, but he
said it was somewhere in this vicinity. And again I will say fourteen years
yes, a specific detail. Iwill give credit words due you know that
that's probably a little bit hard toremember. But at the same time,
I gotta threw him my head offto Kelly for meeting up with him,

(12:48):
and yes, Kelly, Wanda andthe nephew. Yeah, absolutely, And
to be honest with you, Chriswas willing to do it. So,
yes, he has talked to usand he was willing to take Kelly and
show her everything. Like I said, I got to give credit words due
that that was helpful, absolutely,and the fact that they were able to

(13:09):
video it and show the terrain.And that's why I really think if we
upload the video will be good foreveryone to see just the curse he was
taking in the hills, and youpicture that at night and it's just kind
of like, oh boy. Andwhen they got out of the car,
there was nowhere to stand but onthe road. And if you took a
right, you know, if yourfoot slept a little bit, there's hill

(13:31):
like it dropped, so is veryyou're going down. Oh h you're definitely
going down. I wouldn't I wouldn'tdo well out there. I can tell
you that, like you said,Chris was willing to talk to us.
He was willing, and you know, like you said to Dustin, this
family has done everything in their powerto find answers. And the fact that

(13:52):
you know they went out and metwith Chris and that Chris took him,
that took a lot for them.And absolutely not because we're saying Chris is
responsible or anything like that, buthe was the last person that we know
that saw Judy alive. And Ithink that waighs on the family and a
lot of us. You know,you kind of want to get answers,
and you know they took very graciousand they were, you know, said

(14:15):
Chris was nice and willing to takethem, and I think that meant a
lot to them. I couldn't agreemore. So on February seven, we're
going to talk about the actual investigationwhen everyone starts showing up. So we
wanted to review, you know,the day that Chris picked her up and
kind of talk about those inconsistencies orthings that we are kind of wondering that

(14:37):
don't make much sense right now.So on the next day, on the
seventh, we actually had the WoodchCounty Sheriff's Department show up. So we
talked to Sergeant Westfall, who isjust an amazing person officer, and he
was so willing to talk to usabout Judy's case. He's been very helpful.
Yes, for like two hours hewas He was great. And you

(15:01):
know, credit to this man.It's been fourteen years. He doesn't have
case files in front of him.He's actually had some medical health problems that
he says, you know, hismemory. He tried really hard to remember
some things and then he would say, you know, due to some things
that are going on with him,he can't remember one hundred percent. But
he was just so wonderful to talkto. And you know, one of

(15:22):
the things that really didn't add upfor Westfall. So Westfall was with the
Wood County Sheriff's Department and he showsup to the scene. Everyone's already there
and he's looking around like what's goingon? And he saw for Parkersburg Police
Department officers already at the scene,and so he's asking everybody, like,

(15:45):
what's Parkersburg already doing here? Becauseagain this was not in their jurisdiction.
So he's wondering, yeah, likewhat are they doing here? And this
was already after Parkersburg Police Department hadbeen there for hours. Yeah, and
Westfall gets hold by nine one onebecause of the arson, not because of
a missing person, and he's like, I had to ask around like what

(16:06):
the hell's going on? Because hewas like, I got called by nine
one one Nott Parkersburg because we thoughtit was an arson. I got called
because of an arson. And Westfall'syou know, going around asking everybody what's
going on, trying to get thescoop, and he was not aware that
this was immersing a missing person's caseuntil after he was asking, you know,
for Parkersburg who were there, likewhat the hell are you guys doing

(16:30):
here, because again this was nottheir jurisdiction. He got called by nine
one one, and he's like,Parkersburg, what had to you have drive
at least twenty minutes? Right?I mean we were there. It's a
drive out of their jurisdiction. Sohe's like, how long have they been
there? And why would they comeall the way out here? So he
was just kind of thrown from theget go of what the hell's going on?

(16:53):
And how can we weren't called rightaway? And how did Parkersburg get
here hours before we were called?So he was also something I found interesting,
Justine. It was that he wasnot a detective. And I find
that astonishing, Like here's west Fallshowing up because possible arson investigation, and

(17:14):
he's like, I wasn't a detective. He's like, I was a road
patrol officer, he said. Sohe was asking for detectives to show up
once he found out that this couldbe linked to a possible, you know,
missing person's case, and apparently nobodywanted this case. The detectives refused
to take the case. You know, west Fall saying listen, I'm a

(17:34):
road patrol guy. I'm going aroundasking you know, neighbors and having my
officers collect evidence. But we're notdetectives, Like this is somebody else's,
you know, expertise, this isnot mine. And you know, he
kept trying to, you know,scream this at the top of his lungs.
But he actually was the one whothey assigned to the case. And

(17:56):
he couldn't figure out what the hella road patrol officer was doing. He
said, never in the history ofhim being at the Wood County Sheriff's Department
has a road patrol officer been assigneda possible homicide case. It's a pretty
interesting human. He did a lotof groundwork though, even though he wasn't
supposed to be assigned a case ora lead on a case because he wasn't

(18:21):
a detective. He still went tohouses to interview neighbors, collect evidence if
he could help the detectives. Butagain, he wasn't even supposed to be
the one assigned on this case,and he ended up as the assigned officer.
And he had brought this up tomultiple people and prosecuting attorney at the

(18:42):
time. Yes, and that wasthe first time in history a road patrol
officer was assigned to a potential homicideinvestigation, which is crazy to me.
It's crazy to think about it isit is? And he said, you
know, his problem was that hekept asking for detectives to show up to

(19:04):
the scene or be assigned, andhe was actually told no that nobody wanted
this case. They were all passingthe buck. And he can't figure out
why that was the case, Likewhat that was going on? And I'm
a road patrol officer. Everybody like, don't assign me. I don't know
what the frick I'm doing. Andhe's very honest about it, and he
feels bad actually because he knows thatthis family didn't get what they should have

(19:26):
gotten. Again, he has beenextremely helpful and very willing to talk to
us and explain his viewpoint, whichhas been extremely beneficial for us understanding how
this case was or was not investigatedor taken seriously. Right, absolutely,
So, now we're going to moveforward to February eighth, when Judy's remains

(19:49):
were located. It it was prettychilly out, it did snow and max
wind was at about nine miles perhour, with the average of about nine
and a half miles an hour,and Judy was found in the southeast portion
of the seller and she could notbe identified immediately because of the damage from

(20:11):
the fire. Now, according toChief Hefner, the seller contained a large
amount of debris which made it hardto see Judy under the debris. And
when we were there in Parkersburg,I can kind of agree with that,
and even mister Petty said the samething. There was a lot of stuff
in there. There's a lot ofwood, there was empty little propane tanks

(20:34):
and stuff like that. And perthe fire report, Judy was laying east
to south, the head appearing tobe to the east and the feet to
the south. The vegetation between thetwo structures was intact. So both investigators
agreed that radiant heat was not asource for fire travel between the two structures,

(21:00):
no other causations could be eliminated,and that I believe is from the
fire report correct, correct, Andthat is huge. I think that right
there shows that back in two thousandand eight, they're saying that these two
fires aren't connected because it didn't travel. So when we were there on site,
I know that there was some discussionabout possibly that the wind did go

(21:26):
up or you know, the firewas going up and then blew over,
but there was no fire damage inbetween the house, and so other and
again I don't know about you,justin, but I thought they were further
away, but they're actually pretty closein proximity to each other. Yeah,
definitely. I I was surprised aswell. And when I got to Parkersburg,
you guys had already been there fora day and had already visited the

(21:49):
scene, and that was one ofthe first things that you mentioned, because
we were thinking it was more spreadapart. But yeah, it was only
about thirty two feet from the house, you know, maybe twenty yards or
so, and the wind guts wereup to like thirty three miles an hour,
so I could see some of theembers traveling. But one thing that

(22:14):
I did find interesting when we wentthere is I was talking to a family
member and he mentioned just offhand thatthey didn't have any any electricity up there
and the propane tanks were empty.So in order for a fire to start,
somebody had to have started it becausethere's nothing to there's no electrical shortage,

(22:37):
there's no somebody smoking a cigarette ora propane tank getting too hot and
blowing up or anything like that.And one thing that we did find out
when we went there is that therewas an officer or an official. I
can't remember which one. Maybe youcan clarify this that found a lighter at
the scene and they picked it upand they looked at everybody at the scene,

(23:02):
was like, hey, somebody dropa lighter, and everybody said no,
So the dude just puts it inhis pocket. I'm still trying to
track down, you know, oneof the family members who he was a
volunteer fireman I think from the deerWalk Fire Department, And what I have
been told so far is just whatyou said. Justin he's walking around,

(23:23):
he picks up a lighter that's notburnt and is asking everybody if it's their
lighter, and everyone's like no,no, And the family then is thinking
about it and they're like, waita minute, that could potentially be evidence.
What's there a lighter doing just onthe ground. Judy did not smoke
and it wasn't burnt, and theyremember that the fireman just kind of put

(23:45):
it in his pocket or he towissedit back out into the field because he's
like, oh, well, Imean, it's nobody's lighter. Whereas that
could have been very critical to theinvestigation. Absolutely, when you guys told
me that or when we found thatout, I was like, are you
serious? You know, And Imean, hindsight is always twenty twenty.

(24:06):
I'll be the first person to saythat hindsight is always twenty twenty. We
can we can be critical on thingsthat happened or things that were said looking
back on it now, but atthe time, maybe that person didn't think
it was that big of a deal, you know. But I don't even
think they were thinking it was apossible arson at the time, you know.

(24:26):
Or it might have been before theyfound Judy's remains, you know,
we don't know, so it couldhave been before she was even recovered.
But you know, still you kindof think as a fireman, you're at
a fire, you just wonder,like, and you're at a property with
no electricity, right, it's gold. It's one of those things you're like,

(24:49):
how this. As a fireman,I would be like, how did
this fire start? And if Isaw a random lighter that didn't belong to
anybody, that probably would have chimedin my Hey, maybe I should hang
on to this, or maybe Ishould put it in a bag is evidence
or something? All right? Ornot even pick it up. I don't
know. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. It's just another

(25:10):
part of this investigation where you're lookingback and going how did so many things
go wrong? There's so many lostopportunities, I think. So let's talk
about February ninth and then on allthe different things that happened after Judy's remains
were found in what Westfall reports thathe was trying to do. And the

(25:30):
sense of investigation is to figure out, you know, what happened to Judy's
So Westfall extra remembers going down tothe Sun Downer bar that was out there
on Dallason Road, and he wastold by many people in the bar that
she was upset. And that's thefirst time we've heard that she was upset.
Remember Chris, when I talked tohim, he said that she didn't
seem upset, she wasn't crying.But now we have reports that Westfall recalls

(25:55):
that she was upset and looking fora ride home. And the people in
the bar told Westfall that she hadleft with Chris, and they had said,
you know, Chris comes in,he has a couple of drinks,
he leaves, So her looking fora ride and leaving with Chris wasn't something
out of the ordinary. Chris himselfsaid that he often would give people a

(26:18):
ride home who drank too much,so this didn't raise any red flags for
anybody at the Sundunner at that pointwhen Westfall was asking about, you know,
Judy leaving with Chris. Now,one of the things that I can't
get past. We can't eat confirmyet if Judy was in the bar or
not. I made a Facebook posttoday, I really would like to talk

(26:41):
to somebody who you know, frequentedthe sun Donner Bar, who was there
that night. But my question is, why wouldn't Judy use the phone at
the bar to call her family fora ride, Like why would she ask
for a ride with a stranger goingout to the farm where there's no electricity
it's and then what's she gonna dowhen she gets off there, Like what's

(27:03):
her plan? So for me,the whole bar scenario just doesn't make sense
that she would have. Number One, Judy didn't drink. Should let everybody
know that she didn't frequent bars.And the bar is in the opposite direction
from the farm, so Judy wouldhave had to go right instead of left
on Jericho, and if she wentright, that would be about a twenty

(27:27):
minute walk, maybe a mile tothe bar. But according to her family,
they don't think Judy even knew thatthe bar was there. Again,
she didn't frequent bars. She wasn'tsomebody who was very social out and about
and would have been like, oh, let me walk out to the Sundowner
bar. So that bar scenario reallybothers me. What do you think,

(27:47):
justin Well, the fact that hewas told that Judy was in the bar,
looked upset, looking for a ridehome, and left with Chris totally
contradicts Chris's story. So I mean, that's the big one that we have
to point out right there. Butalso I could kind of see if she

(28:08):
wouldn't call her family because the reasonshe was upset and looking for a ride
at home was because of her family. So I could see that like her
not wanting to call and that's thewhole reason she was upset, and this,
that and the other. But atthe same time, I don't believe
from everything I've heard of Judy fromher family and people who knew her,

(28:30):
she does not seem like the bartype, unless that just happened to be
the place. You know, shesaw the lights, knew that there would
be people in there, and shewasn't sitting there drinking or anything. She
might have happened to just walk inthere looking for a ride because she was

(28:52):
upset. That part I could see. But at the same time, it's
also contradictory to the fact it wasin the opposite direction of the farm,
and that's where apparently she's trying togo, supposedly right, So there's just
a lot of a lot of contradictoryinformation. That's a really good point justin

(29:15):
because she would if her goals scoreto the farm, why would she turn
the opposite way. That was avery good point. And Chris himself,
I asked Chris directly, was Judyin the bar? He says, no,
she was not in the bar.You know, she was not there,
and she didn't leave with him.He picked her up along the side
of the road, whereas the barback when Westwall was investigating, had a

(29:40):
different story. So yeah, youknow, again, that's I think one
of the big things that we're tryingto first of all, figure out what
she had the bar or she notat the bar. I mean, that
to me is something we really haveto answer and figure out for sure.
To really then move to past that. So the other thing Westfall mentioned was
a very frustrating to him is thatthere was no actual prosecuting attorney assigned.

(30:04):
So there was a prosecuting attorney inoffice at the time, and that's Ginnie
Calmly, but she was not theone necessarily assigned to oversee this investigation.
He says that no one was reallyassigned because no one wanted it. But
yet he felt like his feet werealways to the fire of questions about the
case. But again he's like,I'm not a detective. I kept telling

(30:26):
them give it to another officer,an actual detective. The one thing that
shocked me was that he was noteven aware that an autopsy was happening or
happened, and he should have beenpresent. And that's one of the things
that he says really made him angrywas that he had no idea an autopsy
was even scheduled or done. Hesaid, usually detectives or whoever's assigned the

(30:48):
case should be there, and hewas not involved in any of those.
Yeah, the road patrol officer whogot assigned a homicide investigation was not invited
to be present at the autopsy.So it just keeps getting worse and worse.
I don't I've seen some pretty badlocal governments in smaller towns because I

(31:14):
was born and raised in a verysmall town and there was always some some
kinds of shady stuff going on.But I'll be honest, I'm thinking Parkersburg's
taking the cake right about now.With all of the information that we have
found out in a lot of thetips and confidential information that we have received,
I don't have much faith in theirlocal government then or now for that

(31:37):
matter. Yeah, And I youknow, the only thing I can say
is when we were in town,we did meet with Chief Deem and he
met with the family. He metwith you know, mister and missus Petty
and Kelly and Cindy, Jen andI and he sat down, he was,
you know, listening to Kelly andlisten to mister and missus Petty,

(32:00):
and you know, he said he'dbe willing to work with us. He
said that, you know, hewould follow any leads that we sent his
way. He was very gracious andunderstanding, and we hope that that's true.
We hope that what he said isaccurate and that he will fall through
because this family has not had thatfrom the start. I'll be honest and

(32:21):
not to interrupt you, but Iwant deem to prove us wrong or prove
me wrong. Yeah, and youknow that's one thing. I hope that
you're absolutely right. I hope hedoes, you know, prove and hold
up his word because for me,justin I can say, I know you
had to leave early, but ifhe does not hold up his word,

(32:43):
and I'm getting a little emotional,mister missus Petty got there and they walked
there and they could hardly walk toget in, and Missus Petty was crying,
and so was mister Petty, justtrying to say, you know,
thank you for meeting with us,like we really want to find out what
happened. And he loved them inthe eyes and he said, I will

(33:07):
do my best. I will followany leads and send them to whoever.
And I hope that you just didn'tlook at these two parents who are so
sick, and that you didn't lieto them, and that would that would
that's what makes me upset. Thatall right, Well, I tell you
what, why don't you take aminute, And I'm gonna just say this

(33:29):
to the listeners real fast because Ican literally see you on video crying right
now and for the listeners. Thething that really really bothered me the other
day was there was a new articlethat came out about Judy's case. And
the media in Parkersburg has been extremelyhelpful. They have been I think they've

(33:52):
put out two articles, they've donea news report, they talk to us,
they help us out, they're helpingus spread the word, and I
the News and Sentinel in Parkersburg hasbeen absolutely amazing with working with us.
But Chief Deem said something in thatrecent article and he said, I wish
them the best of luck. Ireally do. And that bothered me because

(34:14):
it's not really about luck, it'sabout getting off your ass and doing something.
With that quote, it was justone sentence, but it really really
bothered me because it's like, allright, like you can't even respond to
our email. If we give youall this information that we have collected,
what are you going to do withit? Are we going to have to

(34:36):
go above your head? Are wegoing to have to give this information to
somebody else? And I really reallyreally hope that he proves us wrong and
is willing to work with us.And I get it. We're not law
enforcement, we're civilians. But wedon't want the credit. Dude. We
will literally give you all the informationto possibly solve this case or get answers.

(35:00):
The credit be the hero. Wedon't care. And sometimes it's not
their fault. Sometimes they are shortstaffed, sometimes there's budget cuts. Sometimes
there's too many cases for x amountof people to investigate, and they try
to concentrate on recent ones. AndI understand that this is not my first
rodeo with any kind of investigation.We're working with law enforcement. I will

(35:23):
say this though, the last timeI worked with law enforcement, when I
was covering the Lawton murders, lawenforcement worked with me. They were more
than happy to come on the podcasttalk give me the information I needed everything.
They were happy that the case wasgetting coverage because they just didn't have
the manpower or the answers. Andwith us being part of this team,

(35:46):
we do have a lot of resourcesthat we can use to help this kind
of thing. I will say thatyou're doing better, Melissa, You're good.
Yes, Okay, you're back.Okay, I'm back. And to
see them do all of that andhave him like look them in the eye,

(36:07):
I just I hope that's true.Sorry, Okay, So It wasn't
until we told Westfall that we beingus from the team, that her remains
were sent to the Smithsonian for identification. He didn't even know that they recovered

(36:29):
her jaw bone. He did notknow that reports indicated she was dead before
the fire, which is we willget into the autopsy report in a future
episode. We do have that we'regetting in touch with some medical professionals to
help clarify some of the some ofthe medical terms so that we better understand
it as well. So Westfall wasshocked when he found this out. He

(36:53):
was a little bit pissed off aswell, from what Melissa says, and
he's mad because he doesn't remember beingtold. And I'm pretty sure Westfall,
as helpful as he has been withus, would remember a detail like that,
and if he would have known that, he said, he would have

(37:15):
investigated it more as a homicide thanwhat it was investigated. Absolutely definitely.
And Melissa did mention to Westfall thatthere was a facts cover sheet that was
sent to the prosecuting Attorney's office andin the comments it says please send a
copy to Sergeant Westfall. Melissa showedhim the document and he completely denied ever

(37:42):
receiving it. How was his reactionwhen you brought that up to him.
He was a multiple emotions. First, he was completely shocked to know that
she was dead before the fire.He never heard that. He never got
that report. He never knew.The last he heard was from Mike st
Clair, who was the corner ofWood County at the time, that her

(38:05):
liver was recovered, and that's allhe heard. He didn't know there was
an autopsy being done. He didn'tknow that her remains were sent to the
Smithsonian for identification and that they hada job on. He was not privy
or did not know any of this. And again he's supposedly being assigned as
a lead detective when he's not adetective. And yet all these things were

(38:29):
happening that he had no idea about, and he's like, I can't believe
this. And I could hear himfeel just a sadness that he said,
listen, if I would have gottenthose reports or if I would have seen
maybe they were faxed, maybe Ijust didn't get them. But I can
guarantee you that if I knew shewas dead before the fire, wouldn't you

(38:52):
think I would have treated this andinvestigated this as a homicide. He's like,
we still didn't know if it wasa suicide an accident. He had
no other leads to follow, andhe was kind of pissed off, I
would say, and just shock.You could hear the silence. And then
I actually took a photo of thefacts cover sheet and sent it to him

(39:12):
and said, see it says,send it copy to Sergeant Westfall. And
he was like, never seen thisin my life, don't recall it.
Never seen it back in those days. He's like, there was somebody who
would, you know, take thefacts off the machine and then put it
on her desk. But he's like, I really, I truly don't remember
ever seeing this document. Now.Is it possible. It's been fourteen years,

(39:36):
but what you're telling me is inthis document I don't know, so
I don't think I would have seenit. So he was just really,
I think, overall disappointed and upset. Again, just another thing that he
didn't know and yet felt like hewas taking the heat. And I will
say Westfall has taken a lot ofheat on this case because his name's attached

(39:58):
to it. And I will saythis to like write in the autopsy report,
one of the very last lines ofit straight up says we consider this
death extremely suspicious and it should beinvestigated further. And the fact, I
honestly, with as much help asWestfall has been, I'm pretty sure he

(40:22):
would remember whether or not he receivedthat, especially from his reaction so you
could hear a pin drop. Hewas like, wait, what she had
an autopsy? Yeah? Well,I mean and that's the thing with him
actually being handed the investigation because nobodyelse wanted it, and then they mix
up her remains and didn't tell thefamily. I don't put it past anybody

(40:46):
to not tell Westfall, or somebodydidn't facts it, or somebody saw it
come through the facts and was justlike, oh yeah, you know and
put it away or whatever. Nothingin this jurisdic surprises me at this point,
and that is a really really sadthing to say, now that you
know we're having this conversation. Heactually said, you know what, Melissa,

(41:07):
Actually this might make sense now becausehe said back then he got called
into the prosecuting attorney's office Genie Calmly, and she was asking him like what
the you know, what are youdoing on this? Where are you at?
And he's like, I nothing,He's like, I've done nothing.
I don't know where else to gowith this. I don't know. I

(41:28):
don't have all your reports. Parkersburgwould not share their police reports with him,
so he didn't even have Parkersburg police. But yet they show up at
the scene and it's out of theirjurisdiction. And he's like, I don't
have all your reports, and shewas you know, they were going back
and forth, and he said,you know what, it makes sense now
she might have called me or startedquestioning me about what I'm doing on this

(41:52):
investigation because they got that report sayingshe was dead before the fire, and
they didn't tell me, And Iwas like, I don't He's like,
I didn't even all that they twopotential people saw her walking on the road
until after the fact fact, sohe didn't even know about that until months
after the death. Yeah, andthat also makes me question, and this

(42:15):
is pure speculation, why the nocommunication between the jurisdictions. All right,
So I've seen this before in multiplecases. It's always a It's what we
like to refer to as a pissingmatch. It's all, here comes the
county they think they're better than us, or here comes the State Police,

(42:35):
or here's the local PD and they'rejust small and not very smart. They
can't handle this, and it's justa straight up pissing match between agencies.
I really hate seeing that. Ithinders investigations when people don't work together.
But this is pure speculation on mybehalf. It makes me wonder why the
PD, the local PD, wasthere for so long without alert any kind

(43:00):
of county authorities, whether it wasa fire, a missing person, anything
like that. It makes me wonderif there's a connection between Judy's death and
local government or something of that nature. And like I said, that's pure
speculation on my behalf. Pure speculation. Yeah, but I will say this,

(43:21):
we have not divulged all the informationthat we have received, so a
lot of interesting tidbits going on inthere, a lot of interesting things you
know. And I wonder, like, Okay, so you're going to sign
Westball again, who's not a detective. I know we've already said that,
but yet you're not going to shareyour files. But yet you're already at
the scene before he's called. Nowremind you, mister Petty called nine one

(43:44):
one, Carkersburg is not in thisjurisdiction. They should not have been there
before the sheriff and wood County.Right there, there is an issue,
and our understanding is that Sheriff Woodyardis the sheriff Parkersburg. He's actually over
the nine one one communication center.But again and now he is I don't

(44:07):
know in two thousand and eight.I'm sorry if he was. But again
you're wondering, how did Parkersburg showup before the sheriff's shut up. Yeah,
yeah, that is a pretty interestinglittle fact. Yeah, Melissa,
we do know that Chris Cutwright wasgiven a polygraph. Apparently he had passed
it. So our big question fromthe get go because we originally thought that

(44:30):
he had failed to polygraph until wewent to Parkersburg and talked to a local
official who corrected us and he wasalso very helpful, and he's like,
no, he passed polygraph. Somy big question when I heard that was,
Okay, so what did they askhim? Because any sociopath can pass

(44:52):
a polygraph, you know, andtechnically polygraphs are inadmissible in court. Okay,
I'm just going to tell you guysthat right now, whether Chris Cuttwright
had failed or passed it does notmean he is guilty or innocent. They're
inadmissible in court because if you cancontrol your stress level, breathing, heart

(45:13):
rate, you can pass. Itdoesn't matter if you're lying or not.
So it still made me wonder whatquestions he was asked. It made me
think, you know, there wasprobably a barrage of one hundred questions,
you know, very detailed questions,and they're all yes or no answers.
So you found out what the questionswere. Can you shed a little bit

(45:37):
of light on this, because Ithink the listeners are going to find this
pretty interesting. I talked to Westfalland he was the one who initiated the
first polygraph. We had heard thatmaybe Chris took two. As far as
Westfall knows, he took one.But again Westfall's like Hargersburg, could have
done another one and not told me. But the three questions we found out

(46:00):
that Chris was asked was number one, did he drop Judy off at the
bottom of the hill? Number two? Did Judy look okay when she was
dropped off? Number three did yousee Judy go up the hill? Those
are the three questions that Chris Cutwrighttook, and according to Westfall, he

(46:22):
passed. They called in a statepolygraph expert who said that he asked Chris
a bunch of questions, asked thesethree questions pertinent to Judy Because at this
time that they asked Chris these questions, I will say this, they didn't
find Judy yet, they didn't knowthat those were her remains, so they

(46:45):
asked him very general questions, andas far as we know, he was
never brought in for a second polygraph. Chris himself said that he took one
polygraph and I asked him, didyou pass or did you fail? He
said, I thought one of thequestions it was inconclusive. Okay, well
that is interesting to know as well, then, right, I thought the

(47:07):
questions were so generic, oh extreme. Yeah, But they didn't know it
was Judy, so I don't knowif they could have went to, you
know, did you kill Judy?Did you were responsible for her death?
So you know, I know thefamily were asking. Yeah, they were
working with limited information at the time. I will say that. So I

(47:30):
asked Westwall, did you ever bringChris back in after the identification that it
was Judy? And he said no, not to his knowledge, it didn't
happen. But it's interesting that Chrissaid that it was inconclusive or one of
the questions was inconclusive, which makesme wonder which one that's true. But
also, you know, the familykept asking bring him back in and ask

(47:52):
now that you know that this isJudy, bring him back in and ask
more specific questions so that we canhave an idea. And again we know
that they're not accurate. Yeah,yeah, accurate, thank you. So
it's just a guy. So wedid want to throw out that Chris did
take it based on these questions.Westfall said he passed overall. I mean

(48:15):
Westfall again said we can call himanytime. He might come on a future
episode, which I hope because Iwould love for everyone to hear him and
his passion. And you know,he really chased down every possible lead.
And again we have to remember hewas still outdoing his job, which wasn't
a detective. He was still outdoingrow patrol and breaking down doors and you

(48:37):
know, getting fugitives and all ofthat, while he's also being asked to,
hey, investigate this. It justdidn't make any sense. So he
again wishes the family can finally getanswers that they deserve so long, and
he just doesn't know why from theget go, it was a a shit
show, he said, show no, it was. It was an absolute

(48:59):
shit show. Yeah. So,and I mean even he the fact that
he is humble enough to admit thathe was not the right person for the
job. He also says he triedhis best. I really appreciate that I
do, And he openly admits heI didn't know how you know, how

(49:20):
to investigate, you know, amissing person or a homicide or an arson,
but nobody else wanted it, right, he tried his best. My
hat's off to him. I hopehe's listening, and I hope we do
have the opportunity to have him onthe podcast. Would I would really appreciate
that and to hear from him.And you know, he said he looks
back on this case and he canjust not figure out from the get go

(49:44):
why he was even a sign.But also he can't figure out why nobody
else wanted it. And you know, he was asking for detectives who all
said no. He said, no, how can you say no to a
case? I didn't know you coulddo that? But yeah, kind of
weird. So it is weird.And you know, even while we talk
about our relationship with Parkersburg PD.Now, our hope is that they work

(50:08):
with us. Our hope is thatChief Deem lives up to his word that
he didn't lie to the face oftwo elderly parents looking for answers. But
again, we're talking to the guywho's saying it was a shot show and
it was on my back, andhe has no qualms about that, all
right, with the local PD.All I'm going to say is I hope

(50:30):
they prove me wrong. That's pointblank period. I hope they prove my
assumptions wrong. It took fourteen yearsfor the family to get to autops report.
So I'm just going to tell thelisteners right now, there's thirteen pages.
That's the toxicology report and the autopsreport. It took fourteen years to

(50:51):
get those thirteen pages to the family. Why and now they're saying that they
can't get the case file because it'sstill an open investigation. Okay, cool,
So who's investigating it, who's onthe case, who's taking the tips,
who's taking the leads? What havethey found out recently? Have they
gone and reinterviewed anybody? Nope,No, they haven't done any of that,

(51:13):
you know, So I just Ijust hope they proved me wrong.
Oh yeah, because information just informationjust flies in, you know, and
just gets put on your lap randomly. Yeah, I'm not law enforcement.
I am not a detective. Butlike I said before, you know,
it's not my first rodeo. Likethere's people who try, there's people who

(51:35):
care, and there's people who siton their ass and take a paycheck and
say, oh, we're gonna doall that we can because that's what people
want to hear. So that's whereI'm at with it. I know it
sounds harsh. I know hindsight isalways twenty twenty, but we're talking today
now. This is not hindsight.This is today now. So I don't
know. That's how I feel aboutit. I know some people I'm not

(51:58):
one of those people who law enforcement. I have worked with them on on
other cases. I hope so too. I hope, and it brings back
I think when we are in town. As we mentioned before, not to
keep you know, rehashing this,but the citizens of Parkersburg do not have
the best view of their police department, and they're you know, I heard

(52:22):
a lot of stories we could have, oh just of the local police department,
just being power, you know,power trips, condescending. We can
do what we want. You're notanything. We're going to take you out
back here and beat the hell outof you. You're not going to do

(52:42):
anything about it because nobody's going tocare type thing. Unfortunately with smaller towns.
I grew up in a town justlike that. I still to this
day hate driving in the town thatI was born and raised in because of
the experiences that I had growing upthere. And yeah, it's just that
kind of thing sticks with you.But when we hear the same thing from

(53:06):
so many different people about how theydo not trust law enforcement, Hey,
you know what, that's to ouradvantage. Because we're not law enforcement.
You guys can tell us anything.We will not give out your name,
we will not give the information.You will be an anonymous source. And
I think that's why we have gottenso many tips. And I mean the

(53:27):
information that we have been receiving iscrazy, It is unimaginable. And we're
at the point now where we've gotenough names and information that we're trying to
piece things together. I'm hoping chiefTeam in the police department sees this as
a way to bring back the trustor at least open up the doors to

(53:50):
so many people who care about thiscase, care about Judy, care about
the Petties, care about their town. And I'm hoping that that he's a
man of his work. I cantell so many people now on our safe
haven I call crew now, butthey're they're doing amazing work for us,
and I am so proud of them. They're knocking on doors, they're messaging

(54:13):
people, they're connecting house with people. They are in it and I love
it, you know, I'm soproud of the group so far and how
much it's grown. But actually peoplehelping us in the investigation, which is
what it's all about. I appreciateeverybody. I know. I've been pretty
quiet in there here recently, butI do. I go through there,
you know, every few days andread comments or read posts, and you

(54:37):
know, see what everybody's talking about, and try to answer questions when I
can. Usually Melissa's on it,I'll be honest, like she's just bing
bing bing right there real fast.So by the time I get in there,
you know, a lot of thequestions are answered. But the listeners
and the people who are participating inthe group have been extremely helpful. They
are getting us in contact with peopleand they are giving us numbers, names,

(55:02):
locations. It's honestly been amazing andI can't think all of them enough
because it just shows how many peoplein the area want to see this case
solved. You know. It's justone of those things where people are like,
you know, we just had somebodyearlier this week say I've never shared
this with anybody, and I havethis feeling, right, and so you're
like, wow, I mean shedidn't even talk to law enforcement. And

(55:25):
so again, if you have anyinformation, if you just want to say,
hey, I don't know if thismakes a difference or not, but
yeah, send it to us.It could be the smallest piece of information
that you don't think is important thatsolves this case. The person who got
ahold of us earlier this week andyou talked to them, the information that

(55:45):
we received was pretty mind bending.And to be honest, the further that
we're getting with this information, it'sfilling in some gaps that we had questions
about. A lot of it makessense. So it's more we are not
going to record next weekend. We'regoing to take the time off to spend

(56:08):
Thanksgiving with our families and We hopethat you guys do the same and we
will be back again. You canprivate message Justin or I you know,
at any point. The tipline is. You can either call to two four
two two five five two zero eight, or you can email us at tips

(56:29):
at Justice four with the number fourJudy dot com. There is a five
thousand dollars reward for information leading toand arrest. We can't stress that enough.
We are thinking about doing a gofund me to raise that. And
I will say this, I dohave a listener who has generously offered to

(56:52):
donate money for a billboard. Sonow I'm getting ahold of her early next
week Thanksgiving weekend. We're going todiscuss it, and she's going to pay
for everything because she said she justwants to help. I love it.
That's what I love about this community. And that's why you guys need to

(57:13):
join the Facebook group if you wantinvolved in the investigation. It's a real
time crowdsourced safe haven the Unsolved Murderof Judith Petty. Just click on that
on Facebook. Join the group.Me or Melissa will let you in and
you can scroll through and look atsome of the previous conversations. Some of
the diagrams, some of the picturesthat we have posted in there as well.

(57:34):
That's really the only social media thatwe have, so all right,
well, I hope everyone has ahappy Thanksgiving. Gobble gobble, gobble,
bobble bobble. Wait what is iteat? Gobble gobble to you wobble yea,
yep, that's exactly how it goes, all right, awesome, all
right, thank you everyone. Yeah, take it easy, everybody. Thank

(57:58):
you, time time, t