December 7, 2022 • 48 mins
In this episode, Justin and Melissa answer questions from the Facebook group and also give updates on information they've learned in the the last six weeks.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:05):
Here on the safe Haven Podcast.Any names mentioned should not be considered as
suspects unless officially stated as such bylaw enforcement. Any opinions during interviews on
this podcast or the opinions of theinterviewee and don't reflect the opinions of the
safe Haven Podcast or the AMU ColdCase Team. Everyone is innocent until proven
(00:25):
guilty in a court of law.On February sixth, two thousand and eight,
forty eight year old Judith Petty lefther grandmother's house to walk to a
library three blocks away to return somebooks. After that, we don't know
what happened. The family searched forher throughout the night into the following morning.
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The next day, her father drovethirteen miles to their family farm to
find the entire property engulfed in flames. When the fire was out, that's
when they found Judas remains in thecellar. The medical examiner said she was
dead before the fire started. Thelocal sheriff at the time said he knew
it was a homicide and investigated itas such. Now, fourteen years later,
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law enforcement says that Judith must havetaken her own life or died of
natural causes, and there's nothing toinvestigate. Welcome to the latest episode of
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Safe Haven, the Unsolved Murder ofJudith Petty. I'm here joined with Melissa.
How are you doing tonight, Melissa, I'm good. How are you?
Yeah, I'm not too shabby.I suppose just got off work and
going home. Opened up a beer. Good to go, me too.
I'm drinking a light beer now becauseI'm trying to wash my carbs. What
are you drinking? I'm drinking aYngling Flight, which is actually a super
(02:00):
low carb version of Yengling. It'skind of a newer beer. Tastes pretty
good though really I've never heard ofit. Yeah, super light carbs and
calories. But I'm sure after weget done record and I'll make my way
to drink some some blue ribbon atthe bar. So yeah, man,
it's good beer. A good.Well, we got our beverages. We're
(02:23):
ready. Yes. And this Qand A was actually my idea because I
keep seeing a lot of questions anda lot of questions that have been answered
and repeated over the course of time, over the course of the last month
and everything like that, So Iwanted to throw together like a Q and
A episode where we can address alot of your guys's questions and we can
(02:47):
actually get you up to date becausesome of the information that we have put
out beforehand has been updated with differentknowledge and stuff like that. So we're
putting out this episode so that everybodyis on the same page and we're going
to address those questions and we're goingto add information as we go. So
(03:12):
that's basically why I did. I'mglad Melissa was on board. I was
like, I think this should bea good idea because I keep seeing a
lot of the same questions that we'veanswered like weeks ago, and a different
thread which it's none of the listenersfaults or anybody in the group because there's
still people joining every day. Sobasically I wanted to do this, like
I said, to keep everybody upto speed and up to date because some
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details have changed since we started thispodcast as we get further down the investigation
and we get more tips and informationstuff like that. So before we get
going, we do have to addressa detail that we got wrong in a
prior episode. And I got amessage from a gentleman and he was very
nice. He goes, hey,I just want you guys to know that
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you call chief Deem Chief deem.He's not actually the chief, he's the
number two guy. His title ischief Deputy Deem. So we do apologize
for that error. We will makesure that we are on track moving forward.
I will say this, I toldhim the same thing when he messaged
me about it. And we doappreciate those kinds of corrections as well.
(04:25):
We are not up here high andmighty just being like, oh shut up,
who cares? You know? Welike those corrections. The thing about
I think when we get going alot of times during an episode and we
have all this information and all thesenames and all these people going on in
our brains and we're trying to mapit out for everybody, sometimes we do
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get a little bit confused, andwe apologize for that. So well,
at least as we said, Ididn't like demote him, I promoted him
or we did, so it wasI think a good mistake to make,
but it was definitely a game alittle promotion. There you go. You're
welcome. Oh, and also thankyou to the Sheriff's Office. I do
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want to say that before we getgoing as well. Thank you to the
Sheriff's Office for replying to our emailthank you very much. Yep. So
more to come on that, Yeah, more to come on that in the
future, yep. Yep. Soone of the things we wanted to do
in this episode is discuss another alternativetheory. So along with the Q and
(05:29):
A, we added those questions intosome of the things we're going to talk
about in this episode. But we'veheard and also we also, you know,
wonder about the possibility of Judy walkingall about to Jericho Road and where
Chris you know, picked her up, and just kind of looking at that
whole scenario and it just doesn't seemto fit, you know, with her
(05:49):
physical health, with it being sodark out and dangerous roads, and it
seems so out of character for Judy, which all of you have also mentioned.
So we did it take time tokind of talk about an alternative theory.
And one of the things that agood investigator crime investigator does is they
look at, you know, thefirst twenty four forty eight hours before something
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happens, right, you see allthe TV shows forty eight hours, Well
that's afterwards, but the twenty fourhours before are so crucial to kind of
understand what's going on in the victim'slife. So Yeah, the context is
always very important, right in anykind of case, right, And we
hadn't spent too much time, Idon't think yet on the twenty four hours
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prior to Judy's disappearance. So wewanted to take the time to do that
now and then possibly look at anotheroption or alternative. So if we look
at the twenty four hours before Judydisappeared, we know that her family were
grieving the loss of uncle Bill.So Uncle Bill died from natural causes,
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and on the fifth, so Februaryfifth, they had the wake in the
for uncle Bill. So Judy actuallyleft the wake early to return home to
take care of Grandma Wilson and alsothe nieces and nephews. So she did
not stay for the whole funeral afterthe wake, so she left right during
(07:15):
the way to go back and takecare of like she did, right,
that was kind of her role.She was, you know, the favorite
aunt and she took care of hergrandma. So she left early while everyone
else stayed, and then went tothe burial. So because she didn't go,
she didn't know where uncle Bill wasburied, so she had asked her
family where was he buried in thecemetery I'm gonna mess this up. Justin,
(07:40):
how do you say the cemetery's name? I always want to say olive
But is it Olivette? I thinkit's all of it, Okay. Judy
did not know where he was buried, so she asked, you know,
her family, where was uncle Billburied at Olivette Cemetery, which is actually
on twenty third Streets, so it'snot too far from where she was going
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that night. So one of thethings we wonder, is it possible that
on the sixth that Judy left Grandma'shouse, she went to the library and
then from the library she walked tothe cemetery. This would have been maybe
a twenty five minute walk. Sowhat do you think about that first?
(08:22):
Before I keep going justin, it'sextremely plausible, you know, I don't.
I don't see how we could justwillingly write that off out today.
Is a very possible because she didn'tget to, you know, say her
goodbyes. I think all of hergoodbyes before. I mean it was literally
the day before, so you know, the family's going through a lot.
(08:43):
She had other responsibilities, so it'sextremely plausible for sure, right, And
it's a short walk too. Youknow, it's a very short walk,
so right, and I agree.I think when we look at it,
we know that she was really upsetright the six because you know, her
grandma was yelling. She wasn't beingkind of Judy and her grandmother, we
(09:05):
will say, to her defense,had dementia, right, which is so
common type of behaviors that you seewith somebody who has a diagnosis of dementia.
Just for instance, a little referencehere, like my grandmother just passed
away from that probably about six monthsago, seven months ago, is the
same thing. She didn't even knowwho people were at that point. She
(09:26):
could be very mean, very nasty, and I mean, it's just part
of the condition. Unfortunately, itis. It is, and you know
we definitely I work in hospice,I work with lots of you know,
patients who have dementia, and it'sone of those behaviors that where the family
tells us that Grandma Wilson would bevery verbally mean to Judy, but then
she'd always be looking for her.So it was just your typical, unfortunately,
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you know behaviors as someone who suffersfrom dementia. So Judy left went
to library, is our thought andthen after that we're not sure. Well,
we know her books were returned,So for me, I feel like
her walking to the cemetery is muchmore likely than walking out on those dangerous
roads like that would be so muchmore out of character for her and what
we've heard from her family about Judyand how responsible she is walking ten miles
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at night rather than staying in townand going to the cemetery. I just
feel like that alternative theory or thoughtseems more likely. I totally agree.
Like we were talking before we hitthe record button, I can see her
going on walks. I can seeher going on maybe an half hour walk.
She had to do so for health, but at the same time,
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her health I would think would preventher from walking extremely long distances up and
down hills on a windy road atnight when it's what forty fifty degrees outside
I think it was at night,I can't remember. I mean even lower,
I think in thirties or upper thirties. But I just don't see that
(11:03):
as plausible. I can see herwalk in plenty, but walking ten plus
miles in one instance, through theseroads, up these hills, down these
hills with from what was described asbone spurts and her hips diabetes. It's
just I just don't see that.I can see her definitely walk into the
(11:24):
cemetery library. She enjoyed walking,so he did, and I think that
goes with her character. You know, when we looked at victimology and when
we look at different things in thefirst twenty four hours before she went to
disappearance, she very much could havewalked around town like she was seen walking
to the Piggly Wiggly, or weknow she walked to the Piggily Wiggly,
I should say so walking in townwasn't out of the ordinary for her,
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but walking that far out to thefarm would have been out of the norm
for her. Yeah. One ofthe questions that we had on the Facebook
group was was there any video surveillancefrom businesses on the route the duty may
have walked obtained. So the shortanswer is, we don't think so.
(12:09):
We haven't seen the reports, wedon't have access to the police records.
But back in two thousand and eight, from what I've known, a lot
of businesses didn't have video cameras outsideof their buildings offices. A lot of
times they'd probably be at a frontdoor behind a counter at a gas station
or something of that sort. Butit wasn't very common to have things outside
(12:31):
on the perimeter, right, SoI mean, if we had access to
the case file, we could probablygive you a better answer. But we're
not getting access to that because basicallythey just don't want to give it to
the family. That's where we're atwith that. So if we could go
through that, that would tell usa lot more information, but as of
(12:52):
now, we are not one hundredpercent sure. Yeah, we just don't
have anything like that. And whenI talked to Westwall, he didn't mention
being able to get any kind ofsurveillance that would have shown that, So
I think he would have remembered ifhe saw her on video too to mention
it. Another one of the questionswas, we're authorities able to collect any
type of DNA samples from what Iunderstand, No, because they're really unfortunately
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was not much left after the fire, and we don't know if they obtained
any samples from Chris or anybody relatedto the case that we know of at
this point. Yeah, that wouldbe in the case file, and like
I said, we do not haveaccess to that, nor does the family
at this point in time. Sowhile moving forward, let's talk a little
(13:39):
bit about Tom Sam's He lived adjacentright behind the petty property. Tom reports
that he was sleeping upstairs and didn'thear Chris come home. Tom's daughter confirmed
with us that she was in factsleeping on the couch downstairs. She said
she would go to bed around tenpm, and if Chris came home shortly
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after ten pm, she would havewoken up because they had two large dogs
that would have started barking. Sowhat do you think about that, Melissa?
Well, I know last episode wementioned it, but I did confirm
with the daughter again just to makesure that she for sure was sleeping on
the couch. It wasn't you know, maybe she was upstairs or at a
(14:24):
different part of the house, butshe one hundred percent remember sleeping on the
couch. She also said that thetwo large dogs, which I didn't know
prior, would have barked if hecame home shortly after ten she would have
heard them. He would have hadto walk past her. So at this
point, Tom and the daughter neversaw Chris come home. Yes, both
(14:46):
Tom and his daughter confirmed that Chrisdrank a lot back in two thousand and
eight, in which Chris told usmultiple times that he did not drink,
and we were just talking about thatbefore recording is. Well, yeah,
so Chris has told me multiple timesthat he did not drink in two thousand
and eight, nor does he drinknow. He's not a drinker. We
(15:09):
have confirmed that that is just nottrue. So we've physically seen that it's
not Yeah, we have seen photos. People are snapping photos and sending it
to us showing Chris actually drinking.Now, but I did speak to a
couple sources from you know who knewChris back in two thousand and eight,
and they all said he drank aton, he was a drinker that.
(15:33):
You know, that's a flat outlie, and so, you know,
I find it interesting that that's somethinghe chooses to lie about. I don't
know why you would lie about that. I don't know if it could implicate
him in anything. I suppose hewould lie about it. But you know,
that's neither here nor there at thispoint, so right, right,
just leave that. We'll just leavethat there for now. Yeah, it's
(15:56):
just such an odd thing, likeyou and I are both drinking right now,
you know, Yeah, and Idid you drink in two thousand and
eight. I'll be like, yeah, do you drink now? Yeah,
I mean he was out of likehe did not drink, and it's just
an odd thing a lot to notbe truthful about. Yeah, and that's
I mean last episode we mentioned,you know, over the course of time,
Yeah, I could see little detailsnot being remembered or skewed. But
(16:19):
that's not one of those little details. That's a blatant lie. Right,
and even drinking now he's like,I don't drink now, and here we
have upotos of him sitting there witha beer. All right, So Tom
Sam's did mention. He kicked cutright out for stealing his pills and not
cleaning the shower the first time thatMelissa had spoken to him. And the
(16:44):
shower is an interesting reason to kickout another guy, But depending on the
guy. You know what, Idon't know, man, You know I
thought of you justin I thought ofyou. You know, you never know.
I thought of you because I rememberwhen we were checking out of the
hotel. You know, you're like, oh, you know, I check
everything. I do think you seema very cleanliness person. I would think,
(17:07):
like you have candles and oh I'ma super oh I'm a freak about
candles. I have my place smellsreally good. But here's the deal.
I've been a bachelor for five years, so you know, I'll just say
that I'm still a guy, youknow, and I have two sons who
do not help the situation at all. You know, they're like teenagers it
(17:29):
once a teen and once a preteenhere and uh yeah, I mean we're
boys, you know. But butit's not like, yeah, it's not
grotesque, you know what I'm saying. But you know what that maybe that's
the truth is, maybe it's not. In all honesty. Tom has been
pretty open with us, so Iwill say that it's been nice. I've
talked to him a few times.It was just I laughed, I chuckled,
(17:51):
and I was like, dude,guys really kick guy thought because they
are shower. It honestly depends onthe guy. Man. I'll say that
I don't know, it's not herethere. I just found it interesting.
He actually kicked him out or Chrissaid that he laughed. So Chris says
he laughed. Tom says he askedhim to leave over the shower, and
Chris you know, said, oh, I left because there Tom was doing
(18:15):
some things, and it's just interestingthat the shower came into play for summer
even well that and here's a deal, like, of all the things you
could make up for a reason tokick somebody out, that that's kind of
why I think it's the truth.Maybe because there's ten million other things that
you could make up. Yes,that wouldn't sound so crazy, that wouldn't
(18:38):
sound so ridiculous. So Tom Sam'salso clarified that he got a lawyer shortly
after, but not because he wasworried about Judy's case. It was because
he did not want to talk topolice because he was thinking they would try
to get him for something else.And then he goes on to say the
(19:00):
next day he drove his daughter tothe bus stop and didn't notice anything out
of the ordinary. And I know, in the beginning we heard a lot
about Sam's lwering up. You know, I talked to quite a few people
who were concerned that he got alawyer the next very shortly after this happened,
and he was very upfront and honest. He said, listen, they
(19:21):
wanted me to come in. Italked to a lawyer, which is his
right. It was a good thingto do. And he said, the
reason I didn't go in was becauseI didn't you know, I was hiding
anything or knew anything. It wasbecause I was afraid that they would try
to get me for something else,or they would try to, you know,
ask me questions about something unrelated toJudy, and I would get myself
(19:41):
in trouble. And you know,we've heard from a lot of people when
we are in town that they don'ttrust the police department. So I can
kind of see his point of unless, you know, I just wasn't trusting
of going in, you know,to talk to them. Yeah, definitely.
So when we talk about Chris,there was a lot of questions in
our Facebook group about Chris rightly,so right there's a lot of things that
(20:06):
everyone's kind of wondering that sounds off. So and the last episode, I
mentioned that Westfall knew about one polygraph, but Chris himself, I went back
and looked at my notes. Heactually said he took two tests, so
he must have taken one after hisfirst one in Westfall again said if they
did, I didn't know about it, which seems to be the case.
(20:27):
And one of the questions that hesaid that was inconclusive on the second polygraph,
Chris himself said it had to dowith regarding if he knew who did
it, meeting who killed Judy,So he said that that question was inconclusive.
But he said that the reason hethinks that was inclusive was because he
(20:49):
thought it was Billy that everybody hasmentioned before, So he thinks that's why
that was inconclusive. It's fair,So we have confirmed. I know one
of the questions in the Facebook groupwas did anyone check him for scratches?
And have they questioned his wives orgirlfriends to see if he had a violent
pass So I've spoken to a fewof Chris's axes wives, girlfriends and they
(21:17):
have confirmed that Chris has been physicallyemotionally abusive with them. So I can't
answer if they checked him for scratchesat that time, that would have been
in the police report. But inregards to his past relationships, there has
been physical and emotional abuse that hehas unfortunately abused his significant partners or wives.
(21:38):
We heard that from freaking day one. We did, we did,
and when I was talking to oneperson in particular, it was really hard
for her to talk about. Youknow, some of the things that you
know has happened, and it makesyour heart go out to victims of domestic
violence and just the fear that theyeven So we do know that he back
(22:02):
in two thousand and eight had thepotential or did become violent. And the
other thing I want to mention realquick is that Chris gave two conflicting statements
in my call with him. Soget this okay. So first he said
that the bar closed early due tothe tough man contest. Then in the
middle of our conversation he said itwas late when he left the bar.
(22:23):
So which one is it? Right? And what really gets me justin is
that he can't even give us approximatetime and when the bar closed, Like,
you know that you got home bynine, let's say, right,
he said he went straight home.You have to have some idea if you
can remember that it closed early fora tough man contest, you think you
(22:45):
would kind of have an idea ofwhen that was. Like he remembers a
lot of other things, but noteven to give like an idea or an
estimate of when he thinks the barclosed. What do you think about that?
You think it's just fourteen years andhe doesn't remember. I mean it
could be. It could be,but at the same time, you know,
I don't think he's being one hundredpercent honest with us on other things.
(23:10):
So that being said, I couldsee him not being honest about this.
It could be fourteen years could bethe reason. But at the same
time, when you're saying, well, I was home by this time,
right around this time, and wehave it confirmed that no, you weren't.
(23:30):
That that's the part that bothers me. One of the listeners think so
much who said that, No,the tough Man contest isn't during the week
it's on the weekend. But whatwas on Wednesday night was this ring girl
competition thing. So we found outthat this ring girl competition was actually at
this bar called Nipping Que. What'sinteresting is, so if this ring girl
(23:53):
competition was at seven, right,let's say on a Wednesday, how long
do they normal only last an houran hour and a half, And depending
on how many contestants you would have, you know, they could vary,
yeah a little bit. Yeah,it's a work night, you know kind
of thing at night. Right,So if the bar, let's say,
(24:14):
closes early and Chris goes straight homelike that puts him at Tom's at like
seven thirty, right, because itwasn't far from the Sundowners Bar to Tom's,
so he would have been home sevenththirty or so, right. Yeah,
But then that leaves a window becausewe know he wasn't home at nine
or before ten. Absolutely, thatleaves a pretty big window. So you
(24:36):
know, we can't account him forthe rest of the night basically because he
doesn't remember what time he left thebar, and you know, we know
he wasn't home before ten, Soeven if the bar closes at eight,
he's still not home in two hours. No, I agree, And I
would think with the confirmation we gotfrom Tom's daughter that even if he shows
up at midnight, if you gottwo big, big as dogs barking,
(25:00):
you know you're gonna wake up.So I'm just kind of curious of that
window, I guess, because itleaves a lot to be a lot to
be questioned. I suppose, right, because I was even thinking, I
don't think that the competition would havestarted at like a nine on a Wednesday,
(25:21):
probably not, to be honest withyou, I highly doubt that because
like the middle of the week,you know they're probably do something like that
around six or seven o'clock at night, maybe right. I did reach out
to the organization trying to get anidea of day was it, you know,
being held, but also what time. Unfortunately they didn't have any records
(25:42):
back from two thousand and eight.But I am going to you know,
I want to pull put a callout to all the listeners here if anyone
attended the Ring Girl competition in twothousand and eight at the Nipping queue,
please let us know if you werethere, or if you know who the
winner was, you know, letus know, because the organization doesn't have
any records of that. But I'malso going to reach out to the newspaper.
(26:06):
Maybe they ran an ad that's true, some kind of time, you
know. So it's it's pretty weirdthough that Chris remembers the tough Man contest
closing early, but can't remember whattime or even give a range of a
time of when he got home,when he left, but he remembers like
really insignificant things, like he rememberssupposed to where he picked her up,
(26:30):
or I mean, he didn't recallanything of what they said in the you
know truck, or he tells her, Okay, you gotta get out of
I'm going this way, you rememberthat, But you can't say, well,
I the bar closes at about thistime, so that James could get
there at this time. Yeah,And I mean I would forget if I
was drunk as hell. I'll tellyou that that's a very good point.
(26:52):
Yep. When we go back tothe beginning of you know, kind of
looking at this alternative theories, maybeJudy was never out walking, we can't
confirm that that is even true thatpeople saw her out there, or that
she was out on Jericho Road.So if we look at it as maybe
she was at the library went tothe cemetery, if we go back and
(27:14):
we follow that kind of mindset,I looked at two different routes, and
let's say Chris went with James Bonnetthe bartender to this ring girl. Event,
right, they would have had topass the cemetery at least on both
routes. So, for example,for all you people in Parkersburg, you'll
(27:34):
know what I'm saying here. Sowhen we mapped it, if they took
the bar and they went old SaintMary's Pike Road, right, because a
lot of people said that they tookback roads. If they've been drinking or
doing other things. They would takethe back roads, which would be Old
Saint Mary's Pike. They would havedriven past Judy's grandma's house to get to
(27:56):
nip and Q, which is onNineteenth Street. Not there anymore, but
that's where it was. So ifthey wanted to stay out off the main
road of fifty, they would havetaken those back roads and they would have
had to pass Judy's grandma's house.What do you think of that? Justin?
That is very interesting because when itis mapped out, there is more
(28:17):
than one instance of where they couldhave cross Judy's path. And given the
fact that we know Judy did enjoythe walk, but I think we all
can agree that that long distance she'snot going to walk. I think that's
what makes it very interesting. Iguess you could say, yeah, and
(28:38):
if they took Route fifty, whichis like, you know, more of
a direct route, they would stillagain pass the cemetery. So, as
you said, Justin, there's basicallytwo different routes if Chris and James went
together that they would have come acrossJudy. I find that very significant.
Oh, it definitely is. Ithink that's more plausible. I think is
(29:00):
what you said. Then her outon Jericho Road, right, Yeah,
definitely. I don't know too manypeople be out walking on Jericho Road,
let alone Judy. Right. It'sso out of character for her, and
she's so responsible, and she lovedher family, and like I can see
her going to the cemetery because shedidn't get to go, and if she's
upset with her grandma just needed time. You know what a better place to
(29:22):
be than at the cemetery with youruncle right that you loved and have a
time to yourself. Yes, youknow. One of the questions for sure,
as everyone's been mentioning on the group, is you know, we can't
confirm anybody saw her out walking.That's why you know we're kind of looking
at this alternate theory today. Weboth agree that it's just not her.
(29:45):
It doesn't seem likely. Yeah,yeah, and that's that was the thing
I saw. I've seen that questionpop up so many times, and like
me, we all can agree.Everybody finds it just hard to believe that
had first of all, she wouldwillingly do that, or that somebody you
know, would make her walk thatfar. But you know, we've been
(30:07):
over that a few times already.In this episode here particularly, and even
ones in the past. It's justright. I just don't see it as
plausible. I try to I tryto go buy percentages and with plausibility,
and that's just super low percentage,right. I agree, I agree,
and I think it makes more sensewith everything we know. If you know,
(30:30):
she walked in town and walked outto the cemetery, So I guess
the question is how did she endup at the farm so that she never
was headed out there? Right,And that's that one question we've been trying
to answer. And if it wasn'ther willingly going, then it was somebody
who knew where the farm was.You know. Another thing we have to
(30:53):
question those two other sightings. Youknow, maybe that was somebody else.
Maybe they thought they saw somebody.Maybe those two sidings are not even confirmed.
Maybe they were just calls that camein because the community was looking for
and the family was looking for andthey're like, oh, yeah, I
saw somebody walking down this road,and then automatically everybody might assume it's Judy
(31:15):
because that is one of the roadsto the farm. I agree, and
I you know, Chris drove aToyota truck back in two thousand and eight.
Yes, and I'm just kind ofyou know, one of the other
questions we had was did the policeever request Chris's clothing from that night or
his shoes? Again, it goesback to we just don't have that information
(31:37):
right now. Chris didn't say theydid, so at this point, I
can't say yes or no until weare able to access more information. Right
Yeah, absolutely, that case fileis I think there's a really good reason
that they haven't let the family havethat. Whether it be just the lack
(32:00):
of investigation or the lack of informationin that case file, I think that's
part of it. That's just anassumption on my behalf, though that is
purely speculation. But to keep acase file for this long and claim you're
doing it for other reasons, youknow something's going on there. And I
think one of the biggest takeaways this, you know, we took a break
(32:21):
last week, but when one ofour listeners reached out and had, you
know, said listen this. Youknow Ring Girl competition was at this place
called Nipping Q, and it waslike an eye opener because once you look
at it on a map with thecemetery, things kind of fall into place
that seemed more likely. Absolutely,yeah, But at the same point,
(32:43):
it's like Judy didn't know Chris.Chris didn't know Judy. Why would Chris
put himself with her, you knowwhat I mean? But I'm still wondering
how he comes into play with allof this. I think Cutwright came into
play because of Chris Newell and andI believe there was a witness who said
they saw Cutwright's truck around the drivewayand somebody called it in and somebody said
(33:09):
something. According to Chris Newell,he says, well, I was sitting
at a bar with Cutwright and Judy'syou know, case came on the TV.
And Cutwright says, well, Ipicked her up and gave her right
home, so that makes him thelast person to see her alive. And
(33:29):
Newell asked him, Hey, doyou care if I tell the family that
cut Right? It's like, yeah, whatever, And then all of a
sudden, cut Right gets brought infor questioning and he's mad at Chris Newell
because he told him, you know, and Newell was like, when we
talked to him, we showed upthis guy's house unannounced, you know,
we went knocked on his door andhe sat out on his porch and talked
(33:51):
to us for quite a while,and he was very open bodyline, I
mean, looked us all directly inthe eye, and he actually gave us
quite a few names going on.Chris Newell, he used to live in
the house that was close to thePetty farm driveway. He is the nephew
to Bob Newell, who was themayor of Parkersburg at the time of Judy's
(34:12):
murder. Newell was interested in becominga firefighter and would volunteer at the fire
department. He was the one,like I said, that called mister Petty
and told them Chris Cutwright picked herup and dropped her off at the driveway
to the farm. Now, ChrisNewell says that Cutwright got mad at him
(34:34):
after he told Pettis that he haddropped her off. And then Chris's name
gets around a lot in this case, Chris Newells, and we think it's
because he was the one to calland say that Chris Cutwright reported picking her
up and dropping her off at thefarm. Now, we talked to Chris,
like I said, we knocked onhis door unannounced. He came out,
(34:57):
sat right down on his porch.He was very comfortable, he was
very open. He answered every singlequestion that we asked. I don't know
it was it was a good conversation. I want to say that I body
language wise, either he's a completesociopath or psychopath, or he's being honest
(35:19):
with us. And I didn't reallyeven with Jen, you know, being
trained in this kind of stuff,with her background and you know what she
knows and her educational white she likeshe's been through this several times and she
said the same thing. When weall sat down in the car to leave,
(35:42):
I was blown away. I waslike, I don't think that guy's
lying to us. You know,he's extremely open, and like I said,
he dropped a few other names.And Melissa, you have wondered why
he hasn't joined the Facebook group,and I want to talk about why.
Yeah, I mean, we gavehim the car to join the Facebook group
(36:02):
and you know, help us intrying to, you know, figure out
what happened to Judy. But whenI look at it, I just think
he's kind of done, you know, I kind of get that. I
think he just doesn't want to behis name associated with this anymore because it
hasn't been in a good way right, because people have thought that he had
something to do with it or thathe's involved, and I can see him
(36:23):
saying I'll talk to whoever. Hewas very open with us, but I
also think, you know, he'skind of said, I don't want to
anymore, you know, with myname associated with this case. And I
get that. I think that byyou know, every case, there's people's
names who are brought in who havenothing to do with it, and it
kind of ruins their life in alittle way too. Not to say that
(36:44):
obviously Judy's life, you know,isn't ruined in her families. But Chris
was really, I think, tryingto do the right thing. But because
he did that, his name automaticallygets tossed in. I do agree with
that, and he even said thathe's like, I don't even go to
bars anymore, you know, Ijust stays at home or whatever. And
like I said, it was veryinteresting, I don't want to say interesting.
(37:07):
It was a very informative interview whenwe sat down and talked to him,
and I mean I can understand thatthough, like he just doesn't want
anything to do with it because hisname has been dragged around for so long
and part of that, I'm notgonna lie though. Part of that is
because of the whole fire department thing, you know. And don't get me
(37:30):
wrong, there's always going to becoincidences in cases. That's a hard thing
to say. It's a hard pillto swallow sometimes, but when it comes
down to that fact that there aresome coincidences. But once you start getting
to three, four and five coincidences, that's when you need to start looking
(37:51):
a little bit deeper. I'm notsaying he was involved. I'm not saying
he was not involved. You know, I'm not saying he was. I
don't know. He was very honestand open with us. He was very
comfortable when he talked to us,and like I said, he gave us
great information when we talked to himabout other avenues to pursue and other people
(38:12):
to look into. So I don'tknow. That's kind of where I'm at
with it. Yeah, I thinkfor me, he's moved on the list.
You know, if we look atkey people right that we're interested in,
who know, Chris Null after wemet with him, I kind of
moved him out of the circle forme, right, Like, I don't
think he's the within the circle ofpeople that I'm more interested in right of
(38:36):
looking at who's responsible for this.The other thing I want to mention is,
remember how we keep asking for peoplewho was at the bar the night
that Judy was there, you know, trying to confirm did she go in
the bar or didn't she go inthe bar? Yeah. One thing I
found out this week was that thisbar was very small and it wasn't popular.
So I had someone tell me thatmaybe there was like three people there
(39:00):
on a Wednesday, including the bartender. So I think that's why we haven't
been able to hear from anybody ifshe was in the bar or not,
because there wasn't anybody in the bar. You know, It's not like a
Hoppin bar where you you know,maybe a lot of listeners were there.
No, I've heard like maybe therewas three if that, so we know
James was there, we know Chriswas there. Maybe it was only them,
(39:21):
I don't know. Yeah, yeah, I just thought I would mention
that because I you know, Iput out posts like hey, if you're
there, let us know. NowI don't think anybody was really there.
Yeah, I could see that beingthe case. I mean, you know,
small town, small bar on theoutskirts of town on a Wednesday night.
Yeah, and you got this ringgirl competition going on. And the
(39:42):
one thing I also find interesting isthat Chris said that he loves to play
pool, so he'd play a lotof pool tournaments and things like that.
Well, this nip and que notonly was the ring girl competition there,
but they had a lot of pooltables. There was a lot of pool
things going on. So for me, if I look at it and say,
is it possible or probable that ifhe was a big drinker back then,
(40:06):
which we've heard he was, he'snot going to go home at seven
o'clock. Why wouldn't he go withhis buddy James to the ring girl competition?
Number one? It's a ring girlcompetition, but he could also shoot
pool and continue to have drinks.So for me, I don't see him
going home at seven when he couldgo do that. What do you think?
No, I completely agree, Icompletely agree with it. It's just
(40:29):
again another theory, another thought.We're not saying this is how it happened
or not. We're trying to makesense of what we know so far.
And you know, again, ifwe look at this alternative theory, it
makes more sense to me. Butthen we have the big question, right,
how does Chris come across her?Because he says it was out on
Jericho, but if it was outat the cemetery, how does that happen?
(40:52):
And then how do they know whereshe lives or how does he know?
Right? Was there more than oneperson involved? I personally believe there
is more and one person involved,but that's just speculation on my behalf.
Yeah, I think that I wouldhave to be and you know, if
Judy was never out there walking,I think that goes to what you and
I were talking about last week.Like a female getting in a truck with
(41:15):
a mail you don't know at nightwhen you're almost to the farm. You
wouldn't do that. It doesn't makesense no way. And she was such
a shy person and reasonable. Idon't think that you don't say okay,
please, I mean so again,I don't like that we can say that
that actually happened at this point.And I hope, I hope a lot
(41:36):
of this is, you know,clears up a lot of stuff for the
listeners in the group, and I'msure there'll be more questions and that's completely
fine, Like we collect these questionsand we try to address them with every
episode, but I did want tojust do like a Q and A to
address a lot of the same questionsthat we keep seeing and to bring everybody
(42:00):
up to speed with information that we'velearned in the last six weeks. You
know, we have reached out toa forensic anthropologist who might come on board.
We have the arsonist expert going tobe looking at stuff. I know
justin you're working on the medical piece, so we have more to come on
(42:21):
this. We're not done. We'restill getting tips, keep still asking questions.
I'm interested to hear what people haveto say about this alternate theory and
some possibilities of how she then gotout to the farm or how that happened.
Yeah, and you do have avisual of the route correct with the
Semitars library. Yes, yes,I did map all of that out so
(42:45):
I can look at putting that on. I did it a couple different ways,
so I will try to upload thatand get that so everybody can see
outstanding. Well, it's about allI got, Melissa. How about you?
That's all? Did you have agood things giving? Yeah, it
wasn't too bad, I suppose.How about you? It was good.
It was good. Yeah, Iate too many doubled eggs and mashed potatoes,
(43:07):
many doubled eggs. I don't knowwhat that's. Next time we're together,
i'll get it. It's just that'sthat's my thing. Like you can
fight over my ham and turkey.I don't care. I'm taking the plate
of deviled eggs and I'm leaving.I love it just how it is.
Yeah, I don't know why.I just love those things. You know.
It's so weird that that's your thing. Is that when I was growing
(43:28):
up, my mom and my auntwould always trick me, like thinking said
that I made the best doubled eggs. There's just so that I would make
them, so like every get together, it's like Melissa's making the deviled eggs.
Melissa's making the deviled eggs, andI'd feel so special and honor.
But it was just because they probablywanted me to feel it. Oh for
sure, Yeah, that you makethe best. All right? Do you
(43:51):
want to give uh the information forthe tip line an email? Okay?
So again, you can send anyinformation come potential to the tipline which is
two two four two two five fivetwo zero eight, or you can email
us at tips at Justice four withthe number four Judy dot com. So
(44:13):
you can also private message us onFacebook. I know a lot of you
I've been talking through Facebook. Feelfree to continue to send information, questions,
thoughts to us, and we're happyto take a look at it.
All, right, Melissa, Welluntil next time. Until next time,
yeah, I'll talk to you lateron the n
Here on the safe Haven Podcast.Any names mentioned should not be considered as
suspects unless officially stated as such bylaw enforcement. Any opinions during interviews on
this podcast or the opinions of theinterviewee and don't reflect the opinions of the
safe Haven Podcast or the AMU ColdCase Team. Everyone is innocent until proven
(00:25):
guilty in a court of law.On February sixth, two thousand and eight,
forty eight year old Judith Petty lefther grandmother's house to walk to a
library three blocks away to return somebooks. After that, we don't know
what happened. The family searched forher throughout the night into the following morning.
(00:47):
The next day, her father drovethirteen miles to their family farm to
find the entire property engulfed in flames. When the fire was out, that's
when they found Judas remains in thecellar. The medical examiner said she was
dead before the fire started. Thelocal sheriff at the time said he knew
it was a homicide and investigated itas such. Now, fourteen years later,
(01:12):
law enforcement says that Judith must havetaken her own life or died of
natural causes, and there's nothing toinvestigate. Welcome to the latest episode of
(01:37):
Safe Haven, the Unsolved Murder ofJudith Petty. I'm here joined with Melissa.
How are you doing tonight, Melissa, I'm good. How are you?
Yeah, I'm not too shabby.I suppose just got off work and
going home. Opened up a beer. Good to go, me too.
I'm drinking a light beer now becauseI'm trying to wash my carbs. What
are you drinking? I'm drinking aYngling Flight, which is actually a super
(02:00):
low carb version of Yengling. It'skind of a newer beer. Tastes pretty
good though really I've never heard ofit. Yeah, super light carbs and
calories. But I'm sure after weget done record and I'll make my way
to drink some some blue ribbon atthe bar. So yeah, man,
it's good beer. A good.Well, we got our beverages. We're
(02:23):
ready. Yes. And this Qand A was actually my idea because I
keep seeing a lot of questions anda lot of questions that have been answered
and repeated over the course of time, over the course of the last month
and everything like that, So Iwanted to throw together like a Q and
A episode where we can address alot of your guys's questions and we can
(02:47):
actually get you up to date becausesome of the information that we have put
out beforehand has been updated with differentknowledge and stuff like that. So we're
putting out this episode so that everybodyis on the same page and we're going
to address those questions and we're goingto add information as we go. So
(03:12):
that's basically why I did. I'mglad Melissa was on board. I was
like, I think this should bea good idea because I keep seeing a
lot of the same questions that we'veanswered like weeks ago, and a different
thread which it's none of the listenersfaults or anybody in the group because there's
still people joining every day. Sobasically I wanted to do this, like
I said, to keep everybody upto speed and up to date because some
(03:37):
details have changed since we started thispodcast as we get further down the investigation
and we get more tips and informationstuff like that. So before we get
going, we do have to addressa detail that we got wrong in a
prior episode. And I got amessage from a gentleman and he was very
nice. He goes, hey,I just want you guys to know that
(03:59):
you call chief Deem Chief deem.He's not actually the chief, he's the
number two guy. His title ischief Deputy Deem. So we do apologize
for that error. We will makesure that we are on track moving forward.
I will say this, I toldhim the same thing when he messaged
me about it. And we doappreciate those kinds of corrections as well.
(04:25):
We are not up here high andmighty just being like, oh shut up,
who cares? You know? Welike those corrections. The thing about
I think when we get going alot of times during an episode and we
have all this information and all thesenames and all these people going on in
our brains and we're trying to mapit out for everybody, sometimes we do
(04:46):
get a little bit confused, andwe apologize for that. So well,
at least as we said, Ididn't like demote him, I promoted him
or we did, so it wasI think a good mistake to make,
but it was definitely a game alittle promotion. There you go. You're
welcome. Oh, and also thankyou to the Sheriff's Office. I do
(05:06):
want to say that before we getgoing as well. Thank you to the
Sheriff's Office for replying to our emailthank you very much. Yep. So
more to come on that, Yeah, more to come on that in the
future, yep. Yep. Soone of the things we wanted to do
in this episode is discuss another alternativetheory. So along with the Q and
(05:29):
A, we added those questions intosome of the things we're going to talk
about in this episode. But we'veheard and also we also, you know,
wonder about the possibility of Judy walkingall about to Jericho Road and where
Chris you know, picked her up, and just kind of looking at that
whole scenario and it just doesn't seemto fit, you know, with her
(05:49):
physical health, with it being sodark out and dangerous roads, and it
seems so out of character for Judy, which all of you have also mentioned.
So we did it take time tokind of talk about an alternative theory.
And one of the things that agood investigator crime investigator does is they
look at, you know, thefirst twenty four forty eight hours before something
(06:13):
happens, right, you see allthe TV shows forty eight hours, Well
that's afterwards, but the twenty fourhours before are so crucial to kind of
understand what's going on in the victim'slife. So Yeah, the context is
always very important, right in anykind of case, right, And we
hadn't spent too much time, Idon't think yet on the twenty four hours
(06:34):
prior to Judy's disappearance. So wewanted to take the time to do that
now and then possibly look at anotheroption or alternative. So if we look
at the twenty four hours before Judydisappeared, we know that her family were
grieving the loss of uncle Bill.So Uncle Bill died from natural causes,
(06:55):
and on the fifth, so Februaryfifth, they had the wake in the
for uncle Bill. So Judy actuallyleft the wake early to return home to
take care of Grandma Wilson and alsothe nieces and nephews. So she did
not stay for the whole funeral afterthe wake, so she left right during
(07:15):
the way to go back and takecare of like she did, right,
that was kind of her role.She was, you know, the favorite
aunt and she took care of hergrandma. So she left early while everyone
else stayed, and then went tothe burial. So because she didn't go,
she didn't know where uncle Bill wasburied, so she had asked her
family where was he buried in thecemetery I'm gonna mess this up. Justin,
(07:40):
how do you say the cemetery's name? I always want to say olive
But is it Olivette? I thinkit's all of it, Okay. Judy
did not know where he was buried, so she asked, you know,
her family, where was uncle Billburied at Olivette Cemetery, which is actually
on twenty third Streets, so it'snot too far from where she was going
(08:01):
that night. So one of thethings we wonder, is it possible that
on the sixth that Judy left Grandma'shouse, she went to the library and
then from the library she walked tothe cemetery. This would have been maybe
a twenty five minute walk. Sowhat do you think about that first?
(08:22):
Before I keep going justin, it'sextremely plausible, you know, I don't.
I don't see how we could justwillingly write that off out today.
Is a very possible because she didn'tget to, you know, say her
goodbyes. I think all of hergoodbyes before. I mean it was literally
the day before, so you know, the family's going through a lot.
(08:43):
She had other responsibilities, so it'sextremely plausible for sure, right, And
it's a short walk too. Youknow, it's a very short walk,
so right, and I agree.I think when we look at it,
we know that she was really upsetright the six because you know, her
grandma was yelling. She wasn't beingkind of Judy and her grandmother, we
(09:05):
will say, to her defense,had dementia, right, which is so
common type of behaviors that you seewith somebody who has a diagnosis of dementia.
Just for instance, a little referencehere, like my grandmother just passed
away from that probably about six monthsago, seven months ago, is the
same thing. She didn't even knowwho people were at that point. She
(09:26):
could be very mean, very nasty, and I mean, it's just part
of the condition. Unfortunately, itis. It is, and you know
we definitely I work in hospice,I work with lots of you know,
patients who have dementia, and it'sone of those behaviors that where the family
tells us that Grandma Wilson would bevery verbally mean to Judy, but then
she'd always be looking for her.So it was just your typical, unfortunately,
(09:52):
you know behaviors as someone who suffersfrom dementia. So Judy left went
to library, is our thought andthen after that we're not sure. Well,
we know her books were returned,So for me, I feel like
her walking to the cemetery is muchmore likely than walking out on those dangerous
roads like that would be so muchmore out of character for her and what
we've heard from her family about Judyand how responsible she is walking ten miles
(10:18):
at night rather than staying in townand going to the cemetery. I just
feel like that alternative theory or thoughtseems more likely. I totally agree.
Like we were talking before we hitthe record button, I can see her
going on walks. I can seeher going on maybe an half hour walk.
She had to do so for health, but at the same time,
(10:41):
her health I would think would preventher from walking extremely long distances up and
down hills on a windy road atnight when it's what forty fifty degrees outside
I think it was at night,I can't remember. I mean even lower,
I think in thirties or upper thirties. But I just don't see that
(11:03):
as plausible. I can see herwalk in plenty, but walking ten plus
miles in one instance, through theseroads, up these hills, down these
hills with from what was described asbone spurts and her hips diabetes. It's
just I just don't see that.I can see her definitely walk into the
(11:24):
cemetery library. She enjoyed walking,so he did, and I think that
goes with her character. You know, when we looked at victimology and when
we look at different things in thefirst twenty four hours before she went to
disappearance, she very much could havewalked around town like she was seen walking
to the Piggly Wiggly, or weknow she walked to the Piggily Wiggly,
I should say so walking in townwasn't out of the ordinary for her,
(11:48):
but walking that far out to thefarm would have been out of the norm
for her. Yeah. One ofthe questions that we had on the Facebook
group was was there any video surveillancefrom businesses on the route the duty may
have walked obtained. So the shortanswer is, we don't think so.
(12:09):
We haven't seen the reports, wedon't have access to the police records.
But back in two thousand and eight, from what I've known, a lot
of businesses didn't have video cameras outsideof their buildings offices. A lot of
times they'd probably be at a frontdoor behind a counter at a gas station
or something of that sort. Butit wasn't very common to have things outside
(12:31):
on the perimeter, right, SoI mean, if we had access to
the case file, we could probablygive you a better answer. But we're
not getting access to that because basicallythey just don't want to give it to
the family. That's where we're atwith that. So if we could go
through that, that would tell usa lot more information, but as of
(12:52):
now, we are not one hundredpercent sure. Yeah, we just don't
have anything like that. And whenI talked to Westwall, he didn't mention
being able to get any kind ofsurveillance that would have shown that, So
I think he would have remembered ifhe saw her on video too to mention
it. Another one of the questionswas, we're authorities able to collect any
type of DNA samples from what Iunderstand, No, because they're really unfortunately
(13:18):
was not much left after the fire, and we don't know if they obtained
any samples from Chris or anybody relatedto the case that we know of at
this point. Yeah, that wouldbe in the case file, and like
I said, we do not haveaccess to that, nor does the family
at this point in time. Sowhile moving forward, let's talk a little
(13:39):
bit about Tom Sam's He lived adjacentright behind the petty property. Tom reports
that he was sleeping upstairs and didn'thear Chris come home. Tom's daughter confirmed
with us that she was in factsleeping on the couch downstairs. She said
she would go to bed around tenpm, and if Chris came home shortly
(14:03):
after ten pm, she would havewoken up because they had two large dogs
that would have started barking. Sowhat do you think about that, Melissa?
Well, I know last episode wementioned it, but I did confirm
with the daughter again just to makesure that she for sure was sleeping on
the couch. It wasn't you know, maybe she was upstairs or at a
(14:24):
different part of the house, butshe one hundred percent remember sleeping on the
couch. She also said that thetwo large dogs, which I didn't know
prior, would have barked if hecame home shortly after ten she would have
heard them. He would have hadto walk past her. So at this
point, Tom and the daughter neversaw Chris come home. Yes, both
(14:46):
Tom and his daughter confirmed that Chrisdrank a lot back in two thousand and
eight, in which Chris told usmultiple times that he did not drink,
and we were just talking about thatbefore recording is. Well, yeah,
so Chris has told me multiple timesthat he did not drink in two thousand
and eight, nor does he drinknow. He's not a drinker. We
(15:09):
have confirmed that that is just nottrue. So we've physically seen that it's
not Yeah, we have seen photos. People are snapping photos and sending it
to us showing Chris actually drinking.Now, but I did speak to a
couple sources from you know who knewChris back in two thousand and eight,
and they all said he drank aton, he was a drinker that.
(15:33):
You know, that's a flat outlie, and so, you know,
I find it interesting that that's somethinghe chooses to lie about. I don't
know why you would lie about that. I don't know if it could implicate
him in anything. I suppose hewould lie about it. But you know,
that's neither here nor there at thispoint, so right, right,
just leave that. We'll just leavethat there for now. Yeah, it's
(15:56):
just such an odd thing, likeyou and I are both drinking right now,
you know, Yeah, and Idid you drink in two thousand and
eight. I'll be like, yeah, do you drink now? Yeah,
I mean he was out of likehe did not drink, and it's just
an odd thing a lot to notbe truthful about. Yeah, and that's
I mean last episode we mentioned,you know, over the course of time,
Yeah, I could see little detailsnot being remembered or skewed. But
(16:19):
that's not one of those little details. That's a blatant lie. Right,
and even drinking now he's like,I don't drink now, and here we
have upotos of him sitting there witha beer. All right, So Tom
Sam's did mention. He kicked cutright out for stealing his pills and not
cleaning the shower the first time thatMelissa had spoken to him. And the
(16:44):
shower is an interesting reason to kickout another guy, But depending on the
guy. You know what, Idon't know, man, You know I
thought of you justin I thought ofyou. You know, you never know.
I thought of you because I rememberwhen we were checking out of the
hotel. You know, you're like, oh, you know, I check
everything. I do think you seema very cleanliness person. I would think,
(17:07):
like you have candles and oh I'ma super oh I'm a freak about
candles. I have my place smellsreally good. But here's the deal.
I've been a bachelor for five years, so you know, I'll just say
that I'm still a guy, youknow, and I have two sons who
do not help the situation at all. You know, they're like teenagers it
(17:29):
once a teen and once a preteenhere and uh yeah, I mean we're
boys, you know. But butit's not like, yeah, it's not
grotesque, you know what I'm saying. But you know what that maybe that's
the truth is, maybe it's not. In all honesty. Tom has been
pretty open with us, so Iwill say that it's been nice. I've
talked to him a few times.It was just I laughed, I chuckled,
(17:51):
and I was like, dude,guys really kick guy thought because they
are shower. It honestly depends onthe guy. Man. I'll say that
I don't know, it's not herethere. I just found it interesting.
He actually kicked him out or Chrissaid that he laughed. So Chris says
he laughed. Tom says he askedhim to leave over the shower, and
Chris you know, said, oh, I left because there Tom was doing
(18:15):
some things, and it's just interestingthat the shower came into play for summer
even well that and here's a deal, like, of all the things you
could make up for a reason tokick somebody out, that that's kind of
why I think it's the truth.Maybe because there's ten million other things that
you could make up. Yes,that wouldn't sound so crazy, that wouldn't
(18:38):
sound so ridiculous. So Tom Sam'salso clarified that he got a lawyer shortly
after, but not because he wasworried about Judy's case. It was because
he did not want to talk topolice because he was thinking they would try
to get him for something else.And then he goes on to say the
(19:00):
next day he drove his daughter tothe bus stop and didn't notice anything out
of the ordinary. And I know, in the beginning we heard a lot
about Sam's lwering up. You know, I talked to quite a few people
who were concerned that he got alawyer the next very shortly after this happened,
and he was very upfront and honest. He said, listen, they
(19:21):
wanted me to come in. Italked to a lawyer, which is his
right. It was a good thingto do. And he said, the
reason I didn't go in was becauseI didn't you know, I was hiding
anything or knew anything. It wasbecause I was afraid that they would try
to get me for something else,or they would try to, you know,
ask me questions about something unrelated toJudy, and I would get myself
(19:41):
in trouble. And you know,we've heard from a lot of people when
we are in town that they don'ttrust the police department. So I can
kind of see his point of unless, you know, I just wasn't trusting
of going in, you know,to talk to them. Yeah, definitely.
So when we talk about Chris,there was a lot of questions in
our Facebook group about Chris rightly,so right there's a lot of things that
(20:06):
everyone's kind of wondering that sounds off. So and the last episode, I
mentioned that Westfall knew about one polygraph, but Chris himself, I went back
and looked at my notes. Heactually said he took two tests, so
he must have taken one after hisfirst one in Westfall again said if they
did, I didn't know about it, which seems to be the case.
(20:27):
And one of the questions that hesaid that was inconclusive on the second polygraph,
Chris himself said it had to dowith regarding if he knew who did
it, meeting who killed Judy,So he said that that question was inconclusive.
But he said that the reason hethinks that was inclusive was because he
(20:49):
thought it was Billy that everybody hasmentioned before, So he thinks that's why
that was inconclusive. It's fair,So we have confirmed. I know one
of the questions in the Facebook groupwas did anyone check him for scratches?
And have they questioned his wives orgirlfriends to see if he had a violent
pass So I've spoken to a fewof Chris's axes wives, girlfriends and they
(21:17):
have confirmed that Chris has been physicallyemotionally abusive with them. So I can't
answer if they checked him for scratchesat that time, that would have been
in the police report. But inregards to his past relationships, there has
been physical and emotional abuse that hehas unfortunately abused his significant partners or wives.
(21:38):
We heard that from freaking day one. We did, we did,
and when I was talking to oneperson in particular, it was really hard
for her to talk about. Youknow, some of the things that you
know has happened, and it makesyour heart go out to victims of domestic
violence and just the fear that theyeven So we do know that he back
(22:02):
in two thousand and eight had thepotential or did become violent. And the
other thing I want to mention realquick is that Chris gave two conflicting statements
in my call with him. Soget this okay. So first he said
that the bar closed early due tothe tough man contest. Then in the
middle of our conversation he said itwas late when he left the bar.
(22:23):
So which one is it? Right? And what really gets me justin is
that he can't even give us approximatetime and when the bar closed, Like,
you know that you got home bynine, let's say, right,
he said he went straight home.You have to have some idea if you
can remember that it closed early fora tough man contest, you think you
(22:45):
would kind of have an idea ofwhen that was. Like he remembers a
lot of other things, but noteven to give like an idea or an
estimate of when he thinks the barclosed. What do you think about that?
You think it's just fourteen years andhe doesn't remember. I mean it
could be. It could be,but at the same time, you know,
I don't think he's being one hundredpercent honest with us on other things.
(23:10):
So that being said, I couldsee him not being honest about this.
It could be fourteen years could bethe reason. But at the same
time, when you're saying, well, I was home by this time,
right around this time, and wehave it confirmed that no, you weren't.
(23:30):
That that's the part that bothers me. One of the listeners think so
much who said that, No,the tough Man contest isn't during the week
it's on the weekend. But whatwas on Wednesday night was this ring girl
competition thing. So we found outthat this ring girl competition was actually at
this bar called Nipping Que. What'sinteresting is, so if this ring girl
(23:53):
competition was at seven, right,let's say on a Wednesday, how long
do they normal only last an houran hour and a half, And depending
on how many contestants you would have, you know, they could vary,
yeah a little bit. Yeah,it's a work night, you know kind
of thing at night. Right,So if the bar, let's say,
(24:14):
closes early and Chris goes straight homelike that puts him at Tom's at like
seven thirty, right, because itwasn't far from the Sundowners Bar to Tom's,
so he would have been home sevenththirty or so, right. Yeah,
But then that leaves a window becausewe know he wasn't home at nine
or before ten. Absolutely, thatleaves a pretty big window. So you
(24:36):
know, we can't account him forthe rest of the night basically because he
doesn't remember what time he left thebar, and you know, we know
he wasn't home before ten, Soeven if the bar closes at eight,
he's still not home in two hours. No, I agree, And I
would think with the confirmation we gotfrom Tom's daughter that even if he shows
up at midnight, if you gottwo big, big as dogs barking,
(25:00):
you know you're gonna wake up.So I'm just kind of curious of that
window, I guess, because itleaves a lot to be a lot to
be questioned. I suppose, right, because I was even thinking, I
don't think that the competition would havestarted at like a nine on a Wednesday,
(25:21):
probably not, to be honest withyou, I highly doubt that because
like the middle of the week,you know they're probably do something like that
around six or seven o'clock at night, maybe right. I did reach out
to the organization trying to get anidea of day was it, you know,
being held, but also what time. Unfortunately they didn't have any records
(25:42):
back from two thousand and eight.But I am going to you know,
I want to pull put a callout to all the listeners here if anyone
attended the Ring Girl competition in twothousand and eight at the Nipping queue,
please let us know if you werethere, or if you know who the
winner was, you know, letus know, because the organization doesn't have
any records of that. But I'malso going to reach out to the newspaper.
(26:06):
Maybe they ran an ad that's true, some kind of time, you
know. So it's it's pretty weirdthough that Chris remembers the tough Man contest
closing early, but can't remember whattime or even give a range of a
time of when he got home,when he left, but he remembers like
really insignificant things, like he rememberssupposed to where he picked her up,
(26:30):
or I mean, he didn't recallanything of what they said in the you
know truck, or he tells her, Okay, you gotta get out of
I'm going this way, you rememberthat, But you can't say, well,
I the bar closes at about thistime, so that James could get
there at this time. Yeah,And I mean I would forget if I
was drunk as hell. I'll tellyou that that's a very good point.
(26:52):
Yep. When we go back tothe beginning of you know, kind of
looking at this alternative theories, maybeJudy was never out walking, we can't
confirm that that is even true thatpeople saw her out there, or that
she was out on Jericho Road.So if we look at it as maybe
she was at the library went tothe cemetery, if we go back and
(27:14):
we follow that kind of mindset,I looked at two different routes, and
let's say Chris went with James Bonnetthe bartender to this ring girl. Event,
right, they would have had topass the cemetery at least on both
routes. So, for example,for all you people in Parkersburg, you'll
(27:34):
know what I'm saying here. Sowhen we mapped it, if they took
the bar and they went old SaintMary's Pike Road, right, because a
lot of people said that they tookback roads. If they've been drinking or
doing other things. They would takethe back roads, which would be Old
Saint Mary's Pike. They would havedriven past Judy's grandma's house to get to
(27:56):
nip and Q, which is onNineteenth Street. Not there anymore, but
that's where it was. So ifthey wanted to stay out off the main
road of fifty, they would havetaken those back roads and they would have
had to pass Judy's grandma's house.What do you think of that? Justin?
That is very interesting because when itis mapped out, there is more
(28:17):
than one instance of where they couldhave cross Judy's path. And given the
fact that we know Judy did enjoythe walk, but I think we all
can agree that that long distance she'snot going to walk. I think that's
what makes it very interesting. Iguess you could say, yeah, and
(28:38):
if they took Route fifty, whichis like, you know, more of
a direct route, they would stillagain pass the cemetery. So, as
you said, Justin, there's basicallytwo different routes if Chris and James went
together that they would have come acrossJudy. I find that very significant.
Oh, it definitely is. Ithink that's more plausible. I think is
(29:00):
what you said. Then her outon Jericho Road, right, Yeah,
definitely. I don't know too manypeople be out walking on Jericho Road,
let alone Judy. Right. It'sso out of character for her, and
she's so responsible, and she lovedher family, and like I can see
her going to the cemetery because shedidn't get to go, and if she's
upset with her grandma just needed time. You know what a better place to
(29:22):
be than at the cemetery with youruncle right that you loved and have a
time to yourself. Yes, youknow. One of the questions for sure,
as everyone's been mentioning on the group, is you know, we can't
confirm anybody saw her out walking.That's why you know we're kind of looking
at this alternate theory today. Weboth agree that it's just not her.
(29:45):
It doesn't seem likely. Yeah,yeah, and that's that was the thing
I saw. I've seen that questionpop up so many times, and like
me, we all can agree.Everybody finds it just hard to believe that
had first of all, she wouldwillingly do that, or that somebody you
know, would make her walk thatfar. But you know, we've been
(30:07):
over that a few times already.In this episode here particularly, and even
ones in the past. It's justright. I just don't see it as
plausible. I try to I tryto go buy percentages and with plausibility,
and that's just super low percentage,right. I agree, I agree,
and I think it makes more sensewith everything we know. If you know,
(30:30):
she walked in town and walked outto the cemetery, So I guess
the question is how did she endup at the farm so that she never
was headed out there? Right,And that's that one question we've been trying
to answer. And if it wasn'ther willingly going, then it was somebody
who knew where the farm was.You know. Another thing we have to
(30:53):
question those two other sightings. Youknow, maybe that was somebody else.
Maybe they thought they saw somebody.Maybe those two sidings are not even confirmed.
Maybe they were just calls that camein because the community was looking for
and the family was looking for andthey're like, oh, yeah, I
saw somebody walking down this road,and then automatically everybody might assume it's Judy
(31:15):
because that is one of the roadsto the farm. I agree, and
I you know, Chris drove aToyota truck back in two thousand and eight.
Yes, and I'm just kind ofyou know, one of the other
questions we had was did the policeever request Chris's clothing from that night or
his shoes? Again, it goesback to we just don't have that information
(31:37):
right now. Chris didn't say theydid, so at this point, I
can't say yes or no until weare able to access more information. Right
Yeah, absolutely, that case fileis I think there's a really good reason
that they haven't let the family havethat. Whether it be just the lack
(32:00):
of investigation or the lack of informationin that case file, I think that's
part of it. That's just anassumption on my behalf, though that is
purely speculation. But to keep acase file for this long and claim you're
doing it for other reasons, youknow something's going on there. And I
think one of the biggest takeaways this, you know, we took a break
(32:21):
last week, but when one ofour listeners reached out and had, you
know, said listen this. Youknow Ring Girl competition was at this place
called Nipping Q, and it waslike an eye opener because once you look
at it on a map with thecemetery, things kind of fall into place
that seemed more likely. Absolutely,yeah, But at the same point,
(32:43):
it's like Judy didn't know Chris.Chris didn't know Judy. Why would Chris
put himself with her, you knowwhat I mean? But I'm still wondering
how he comes into play with allof this. I think Cutwright came into
play because of Chris Newell and andI believe there was a witness who said
they saw Cutwright's truck around the drivewayand somebody called it in and somebody said
(33:09):
something. According to Chris Newell,he says, well, I was sitting
at a bar with Cutwright and Judy'syou know, case came on the TV.
And Cutwright says, well, Ipicked her up and gave her right
home, so that makes him thelast person to see her alive. And
(33:29):
Newell asked him, Hey, doyou care if I tell the family that
cut Right? It's like, yeah, whatever, And then all of a
sudden, cut Right gets brought infor questioning and he's mad at Chris Newell
because he told him, you know, and Newell was like, when we
talked to him, we showed upthis guy's house unannounced, you know,
we went knocked on his door andhe sat out on his porch and talked
(33:51):
to us for quite a while,and he was very open bodyline, I
mean, looked us all directly inthe eye, and he actually gave us
quite a few names going on.Chris Newell, he used to live in
the house that was close to thePetty farm driveway. He is the nephew
to Bob Newell, who was themayor of Parkersburg at the time of Judy's
(34:12):
murder. Newell was interested in becominga firefighter and would volunteer at the fire
department. He was the one,like I said, that called mister Petty
and told them Chris Cutwright picked herup and dropped her off at the driveway
to the farm. Now, ChrisNewell says that Cutwright got mad at him
(34:34):
after he told Pettis that he haddropped her off. And then Chris's name
gets around a lot in this case, Chris Newells, and we think it's
because he was the one to calland say that Chris Cutwright reported picking her
up and dropping her off at thefarm. Now, we talked to Chris,
like I said, we knocked onhis door unannounced. He came out,
(34:57):
sat right down on his porch.He was very comfortable, he was
very open. He answered every singlequestion that we asked. I don't know
it was it was a good conversation. I want to say that I body
language wise, either he's a completesociopath or psychopath, or he's being honest
(35:19):
with us. And I didn't reallyeven with Jen, you know, being
trained in this kind of stuff,with her background and you know what she
knows and her educational white she likeshe's been through this several times and she
said the same thing. When weall sat down in the car to leave,
(35:42):
I was blown away. I waslike, I don't think that guy's
lying to us. You know,he's extremely open, and like I said,
he dropped a few other names.And Melissa, you have wondered why
he hasn't joined the Facebook group,and I want to talk about why.
Yeah, I mean, we gavehim the car to join the Facebook group
(36:02):
and you know, help us intrying to, you know, figure out
what happened to Judy. But whenI look at it, I just think
he's kind of done, you know, I kind of get that. I
think he just doesn't want to behis name associated with this anymore because it
hasn't been in a good way right, because people have thought that he had
something to do with it or thathe's involved, and I can see him
(36:23):
saying I'll talk to whoever. Hewas very open with us, but I
also think, you know, he'skind of said, I don't want to
anymore, you know, with myname associated with this case. And I
get that. I think that byyou know, every case, there's people's
names who are brought in who havenothing to do with it, and it
kind of ruins their life in alittle way too. Not to say that
(36:44):
obviously Judy's life, you know,isn't ruined in her families. But Chris
was really, I think, tryingto do the right thing. But because
he did that, his name automaticallygets tossed in. I do agree with
that, and he even said thathe's like, I don't even go to
bars anymore, you know, Ijust stays at home or whatever. And
like I said, it was veryinteresting, I don't want to say interesting.
(37:07):
It was a very informative interview whenwe sat down and talked to him,
and I mean I can understand thatthough, like he just doesn't want
anything to do with it because hisname has been dragged around for so long
and part of that, I'm notgonna lie though. Part of that is
because of the whole fire department thing, you know. And don't get me
(37:30):
wrong, there's always going to becoincidences in cases. That's a hard thing
to say. It's a hard pillto swallow sometimes, but when it comes
down to that fact that there aresome coincidences. But once you start getting
to three, four and five coincidences, that's when you need to start looking
(37:51):
a little bit deeper. I'm notsaying he was involved. I'm not saying
he was not involved. You know, I'm not saying he was. I
don't know. He was very honestand open with us. He was very
comfortable when he talked to us,and like I said, he gave us
great information when we talked to himabout other avenues to pursue and other people
(38:12):
to look into. So I don'tknow. That's kind of where I'm at
with it. Yeah, I thinkfor me, he's moved on the list.
You know, if we look atkey people right that we're interested in,
who know, Chris Null after wemet with him, I kind of
moved him out of the circle forme, right, Like, I don't
think he's the within the circle ofpeople that I'm more interested in right of
(38:36):
looking at who's responsible for this.The other thing I want to mention is,
remember how we keep asking for peoplewho was at the bar the night
that Judy was there, you know, trying to confirm did she go in
the bar or didn't she go inthe bar? Yeah. One thing I
found out this week was that thisbar was very small and it wasn't popular.
So I had someone tell me thatmaybe there was like three people there
(39:00):
on a Wednesday, including the bartender. So I think that's why we haven't
been able to hear from anybody ifshe was in the bar or not,
because there wasn't anybody in the bar. You know, It's not like a
Hoppin bar where you you know,maybe a lot of listeners were there.
No, I've heard like maybe therewas three if that, so we know
James was there, we know Chriswas there. Maybe it was only them,
(39:21):
I don't know. Yeah, yeah, I just thought I would mention
that because I you know, Iput out posts like hey, if you're
there, let us know. NowI don't think anybody was really there.
Yeah, I could see that beingthe case. I mean, you know,
small town, small bar on theoutskirts of town on a Wednesday night.
Yeah, and you got this ringgirl competition going on. And the
(39:42):
one thing I also find interesting isthat Chris said that he loves to play
pool, so he'd play a lotof pool tournaments and things like that.
Well, this nip and que notonly was the ring girl competition there,
but they had a lot of pooltables. There was a lot of pool
things going on. So for me, if I look at it and say,
is it possible or probable that ifhe was a big drinker back then,
(40:06):
which we've heard he was, he'snot going to go home at seven
o'clock. Why wouldn't he go withhis buddy James to the ring girl competition?
Number one? It's a ring girlcompetition, but he could also shoot
pool and continue to have drinks.So for me, I don't see him
going home at seven when he couldgo do that. What do you think?
No, I completely agree, Icompletely agree with it. It's just
(40:29):
again another theory, another thought.We're not saying this is how it happened
or not. We're trying to makesense of what we know so far.
And you know, again, ifwe look at this alternative theory, it
makes more sense to me. Butthen we have the big question, right,
how does Chris come across her?Because he says it was out on
Jericho, but if it was outat the cemetery, how does that happen?
(40:52):
And then how do they know whereshe lives or how does he know?
Right? Was there more than oneperson involved? I personally believe there
is more and one person involved,but that's just speculation on my behalf.
Yeah, I think that I wouldhave to be and you know, if
Judy was never out there walking,I think that goes to what you and
I were talking about last week.Like a female getting in a truck with
(41:15):
a mail you don't know at nightwhen you're almost to the farm. You
wouldn't do that. It doesn't makesense no way. And she was such
a shy person and reasonable. Idon't think that you don't say okay,
please, I mean so again,I don't like that we can say that
that actually happened at this point.And I hope, I hope a lot
(41:36):
of this is, you know,clears up a lot of stuff for the
listeners in the group, and I'msure there'll be more questions and that's completely
fine, Like we collect these questionsand we try to address them with every
episode, but I did want tojust do like a Q and A to
address a lot of the same questionsthat we keep seeing and to bring everybody
(42:00):
up to speed with information that we'velearned in the last six weeks. You
know, we have reached out toa forensic anthropologist who might come on board.
We have the arsonist expert going tobe looking at stuff. I know
justin you're working on the medical piece, so we have more to come on
(42:21):
this. We're not done. We'restill getting tips, keep still asking questions.
I'm interested to hear what people haveto say about this alternate theory and
some possibilities of how she then gotout to the farm or how that happened.
Yeah, and you do have avisual of the route correct with the
Semitars library. Yes, yes,I did map all of that out so
(42:45):
I can look at putting that on. I did it a couple different ways,
so I will try to upload thatand get that so everybody can see
outstanding. Well, it's about allI got, Melissa. How about you?
That's all? Did you have agood things giving? Yeah, it
wasn't too bad, I suppose.How about you? It was good.
It was good. Yeah, Iate too many doubled eggs and mashed potatoes,
(43:07):
many doubled eggs. I don't knowwhat that's. Next time we're together,
i'll get it. It's just that'sthat's my thing. Like you can
fight over my ham and turkey.I don't care. I'm taking the plate
of deviled eggs and I'm leaving.I love it just how it is.
Yeah, I don't know why.I just love those things. You know.
It's so weird that that's your thing. Is that when I was growing
(43:28):
up, my mom and my auntwould always trick me, like thinking said
that I made the best doubled eggs. There's just so that I would make
them, so like every get together, it's like Melissa's making the deviled eggs.
Melissa's making the deviled eggs, andI'd feel so special and honor.
But it was just because they probablywanted me to feel it. Oh for
sure, Yeah, that you makethe best. All right? Do you
(43:51):
want to give uh the information forthe tip line an email? Okay?
So again, you can send anyinformation come potential to the tipline which is
two two four two two five fivetwo zero eight, or you can email
us at tips at Justice four withthe number four Judy dot com. So
(44:13):
you can also private message us onFacebook. I know a lot of you
I've been talking through Facebook. Feelfree to continue to send information, questions,
thoughts to us, and we're happyto take a look at it.
All, right, Melissa, Welluntil next time. Until next time,
yeah, I'll talk to you lateron the n
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