February 25, 2025 • 49 mins
What up, Spooky Squad? In this episode of Scream and Sugar, we continue to tramp through the 2014 Isla Vista murders committed by Elliot Rodger.
In today's episode, we will focus more thoroughly on his state of mind, including diagnoses. As we explore his warped ideology, the warning signs that were ignored, the toxic subcultures that fueled his descent into violence, we will also look at how our society responded. Join us as we dissect one of the most infamous crimes of the decade and the lasting impact it left behind.
And remember, stay spooky!
Case notes/resources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Isla_Vista_killingshttps://www.independent.com/2024/05/22/ten-years-after-the-isla-vista-killings/+https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1359178914000305?ref=pdf_download&fr=RR-2&rr=903bdeecde9d2393https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1359178916301744#:~:text=There%20have%20been%20many%20different,O'Toole%2C%202014).https://www.karenfranklin.com/files/rodger_manifesto.pdfhttps://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43892189
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/24/elliot-rodgers-california-shooting-mental-health-misogyny
https://www.cnn.com/2014/05/27/justice/california-elliot-rodger-wealth/index.htmlhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Toronto_van_attackhttps://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43892189https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1ijdm9m/field_report_of_female_response_after_posting/
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/scream-and-sugar-true-crime-coffee-hour--6015946/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back, everybody to another episode of Scream and Sugar,
your true crime coffee hour, the podcast that dives into
the darker side of humanity while enjoying a little sweetness
on the side. I am your host, Sahara. I'm Candace,
and today we're going to be covering the Elavista murders
and Elliott Roger Part two. Hello Candace, Hello Sahara, immediately
(00:55):
by unbond Hello Candice. Hi, Saharah, welcome back.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yeah a minute, I know.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
I think it might be worthwhile to take a couple
weeks off. Yeah, and then you and I just record,
so a couple of weeks off for the listeners, so
that you know that there's going to be a couple
of weeks off, and then hopefully we will have some
backstock recorded.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
There we go.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
I think that's a good plan. So expect a little break,
little break, you break. Consider this season one is ending,
Season two is starting.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
There we go.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
But welcome back, everybody. I know we left off last
week at the end of the Ilavistic killings and the
death of Elliott Roger. Just to recap super quickly, what
happened was Elliott Roger was experiencing a little bit of
a decline as he became more and more angry with
(01:54):
women who he could not date or romance and with
men who were able to talk to women easily. He
was part of the in cell community or involuntary celibate community,
and through this community, became more and more enraged with
people who were finding love. He left a large one
(02:15):
hundred and thirty seven page manifesto which was this incredibly
long self pitying document that he wrote and sent out
to his friends from childhood, which is bizarre. His family
and like his therapists and social workers that were kind
of trying to help him before he decided to go
out and go on what was basically a killing spree.
(02:39):
He wanted to attack, if y'all recall, a sorority house
which was full of women that he considered to be
the hottest in town, but after being unable to access
their home and a lot of them were actually out
of town, he went ahead and shot some other sorority
girls who were walking down the street, and then took
police on a car chase as he ran down whoever
(03:00):
he could find walking down the street and shot at
people out out of his car window. He ended up
shooting a couple other people on his way through the
town and through E La Vista, and then he ended
everything by shooting himself in the head, which caused his
car to crash into a biker like a bicyclist who
then fell onto his windshield, and the cops arrested that
(03:23):
poor man and then let him go.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
So he shot himself in the head while he was
still operating the vehicle that caused him to run into
Like I correct, I thought he crashed and then.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
No, dude, he shot himself in the head and that
caused the car to bear off the roads. Just absolute chaos.
I do feel like I want to touch on one
little thing, a little correction. So I actually was browsing
and found an article that stated that his family wasn't
as wealthy as in maybe I made it seem in
the last episode. So his father was a photographer and
(03:54):
a film director, but he was in debt what they
considered to be deep debt, and his mother was a
research assistant for a film company, and another source said
she was a personal assistant to a wealthy family. Allegedly,
according to divorce documents, she made about forty K a year.
They divorced though in nineteen eighty nine, which comes out
(04:17):
to about seventy five K to day, So I'm not
sure also has a kid super wealthy but not poor.
But I also don't know because my parents went through
a pretty nasty divorce, and sometimes you fudge the numbers
on your docks to try to make it seem like
you're not making as much so you don't need to
pay your partner or you get more child's work. Yeah,
(04:37):
so obviously they do not appear to be as wealthy
as some other folks that his family interacted with. In
his manifesto, he often talks about how he was mad
that his parents weren't as rich as other people's parents,
so he wanted to be part of that very very
(04:59):
rich uppresh. I will also just mention that his parents
knew a lot of people, so he got a lot
of perks from that. So like once he received tickets
to a private Katie Perry concert so in the midots, like,
I think that's a pretty big deal.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
That was a big deal.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
I mean, he woren't designer clothes. He drove a BMW
that was a gift from his mother, So again, he
wasn't poor by any stretch.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
It's like upper middle class or like low upper class.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Yeah, I think he's probably low upper classes what I
would assume. According to his manifesto, he blamed his mother
because she didn't remarry into wealth, and he said that
that was very selfish of her, because she should have
married a wealthy man so that he could have lived
this wealthy life, and she should have done it.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
For him me too.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
He said in his manifesto that it would help him
achieve quote high enough status to attract beautiful girlfriends and
live above my enemies end quote fucking dork wow for
In his manifesto, he also expresses issues with his father,
suggesting that his father, Peter Roger, wasted his money making
this documentary as opposed to really just focusing on getting money.
(06:14):
I will mention that his dad was an assistant director
on The Hunger Games, so I'm not sure exactly what
the debt thing was. At the time, his mother was
paying his rent again, he she gifted him that BMW
three twenty eight I, which was around like a forty
two thousand dollars car. His father sent him five hundred
(06:34):
dollars a month back in the early mid oughts and
he also received income from his grandparents.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
So but he's just a freeloader. Yeah, he expects everything
to come to him easily because he's probably never he's
never had a work for anything.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Right, So, I don't know. I saw the article, I
read through the article, did some digging, and I was like, Uh,
this kid isn't.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
Like your average middle class kid. He's not even your
average like average class kid, not at all. So yes,
still just quick correction. Now, let's move on to a
little bit about the diagnosis that he had before and
(07:28):
then some of the diagnosis that he received after his
case when people started really looking through that manifesto. So
he started showing symptoms of high functioning autism. Obviously pretty
early on, he had stemming behavior and overstimulation responses, which
were a large part of the family's lives. Around like
seven and earlier. In high school, he received the full
(07:49):
diagnosis of something called a pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified,
which is a long title that covers a really broad
category that is now known as broad spectrum autism. Okay,
that being said, he was technically under the threshold for
autism spectrum disorder. According to questionnaires that he took. I've
(08:10):
also taken those questionnaires. I'm also under the threshold like
by a lot, but that doesn't I don't know if
that really means anything unless a clinical psychologist.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Is looking at it.
Speaker 5 (08:20):
Right.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
That's just where were you taking the surveys at.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
I took an autism Spectrum disorder class here, So yeah,
I took it here. That being said, I just want
to make it very clear, very very clear, that because
he had autism, he did not commit these crimes. People
with autism do not commit no crimes like this at all.
It was a small part alongside many other comorbidities, including
(08:46):
obviously psychopathy, depression, narcissism, and this crazy sense of entitlement.
All of these things combined helped to influence his mindset
and then it was him himself that to do this.
He knew what was wrong, he hid it from people.
This was not because he had autism. Like just making
that so clear. He had been prescribed things like xanix.
(09:10):
He was taking his xanax on the day of his rampage,
but he was also prescribed medication for things like depression
and anxiety, but he wrote in his manifesto that he
was not taking it. So he was not taking a
lot of the medication that he was supposed to be taking,
but was indulging in what are they called benzos. At
the time of the attacks, he was meeting with actually
multiple youth life coaches, so they would meet with him
(09:34):
to do activities that encouraged his social skills. They would
go on walks and kind of like try to help
him do some talk therapy through the issues that he
was having connecting with his peers. I will say he
had actually some pretty close connections with these people, but
we'll go into it in a little bit, but a
predominant theme here is this extreme social isolation, in this
(10:00):
pathological jealousy that he seems to have for other people.
The myth perpetuated by the media like after these incidents occurred,
was that he was this like stone cold, calculated kill
machine and he was completely disconnected from his mental state.
He lacked command of his body. And this is something
that we've seen time and time again with the media
(10:20):
where they kind of pushed this ideology that everybody is
just completely emotionless than do these type of killings. But this,
as we know, was not true. He planned it for
like a year. He was not inundated by hallucinations and delusions.
He just had some very extreme issues where he felt
alone and he felt like jealous. Like many other killers,
(10:41):
he was like, this is keepy keep. He was clearly isolated, angry,
and desperate. So many experts believe that there's only really
a thin line that separates homicidal from suicidal intent. So
this is kind of an interesting little take on it.
So therapy, they believe, isn't always going to work because
(11:02):
many people will mask these emotions even in therapy. Oh yeah, absolutely,
So it's uncomfortable, as I'm sure many of you know,
to share these really deep or dark thoughts or feelings.
So a lot of people after the fact, they don't
hear about this, and they just assume that these killers
are just Bundy esque I guess what I mean, right.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Or that they had access to resources and weren't utilizing them.
But clearly he was and it wasn't working right.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Right, Elliott's perception was out the whole world hated him
and was rejecting him, which kind of fueled the distance
between him and others, right, which kind of ended up
obviously leading to the attack at the Santa Barbara City
College one of his counselors did talk to the press,
saying that he liked his two male counselors, but then
(11:48):
would become enraged if they could interact well with others.
So he was very friendly with them. He talked to
them a lot, interacted with them a lot, but then
the second he saw them interacting well, he would get
so jealous that it would enrage him. He also connected
with a female counselor, which this is very interesting, but
he was pissed off because he felt like he had
to pay for her company. Yeah, so he felt like
(12:10):
he was giving her money so that she would talk
to him, and a really sad turn of events. She
ended up making a statement later saying that like she
was shocked. She was shocked by this because she's the
Elliott that she said, like, I know, was not this
kind of person. He wasn't aggressive, he wasn't vindictive, and that.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Just goes to show you how much of a mask
he put up.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
In fact, his father tried to get this other friend
of his, a Hollywood producer, to help mentor his son
because he was like, something ain't ricrin. So this guy's
name is Dale Wanner, and Dale said that he met
with Elliott a few times, but he was kind of
freaked out because Elliott had an unhealthy entitlement about women.
So he said, Elliott was paralyzed by timidity, but I
(12:55):
never thought he would be violent. So kind of just
goes to show you like people didn't exist actly know.
And we're going to go into this a little bit more,
but it's almost like everybody had a little piece of
the puzzle. So switching switching rolls a little bit, switching topics,
switching rolls like where are we going, switching gears a
(13:16):
little bit. And I'm probably gonna do this a lot
because I wrote this out in kind of these like
weird sections, but I do want to just cover our
victims a little bit more. Obviously, since the shooting, the
victims families have fought tooth and nail for gun control,
which I think makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Like how did this have access?
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah, I do think there's obviously a fine line there
because if I'm in therapy, does that mean that I
should not have access to the right to bear arms
just because of a therapy? No, And if these counselors
that were with him every day did not think he
was violent, it's where do we draw that line?
Speaker 2 (13:55):
I don't know, well, even then, to do they communicate
with one another like the FDA and whoever you're going
to get your background check? Is that on your background
check when you go get a gun?
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Right, that's a good question. I don't know. From what
I found while doing this digging, it seemed like nobody,
and we hear this time and time again, Right, nobody
thought that this person was capable of those kind of things.
But then we.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Didn't expect it of him because he was so timid
and was kind of this dorky kid. So they didn't
put it like two and two together. Right, They didn't
think that he was maybe capable of doing something like
that because he was such an or just dorky young kid.
They were probably thinking, maybe he'll he's.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Just going through a phase.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Yeah, maybe he's going through a phase. Maybe he'll develop
those skills a little bit better and learn how to
talk women.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Well, it makes you wonder how much just interacting with
a group of freaking misogynists influence.
Speaker 5 (14:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Absolutely, But either way, the dusts of these people obviously
absolutely shattered the lives of their families. They were all smart, loving,
just really young kings. Like when I think about We've
talked about this so many times, like what we were
doing at that age, like we you know, you're an adult,
(15:13):
but it doesn't necessarily feel I don't.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Feel like an adult sometimes now when I'm thirty five.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Girl, I think about my age sometimes and I'm.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Like, what I thought about it? Okay, how to do
a deep dive? In my class yesterday because we talked
about like your first sport that you ever played, and
I was like soccer colored. I was like five five six,
and I was like, holy shit, that was thirty years ago.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
And then I wanted to cry, Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Yeah, they were just so young and really just starting
their lives. I feel like figuring out who they.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Are absolutely like, and they had so much potential, Like
one of the victims was an inspiring lawyer to were
like sorority sisters, three were best friends. So they all
had like just their own lives going on. And I
feel like Elliott Rodgers is dole last because of envy
(16:09):
and just a wild mindset. So Veronica Weiss, who was
only nineteen, was a freshman at UCSB, so she was
considered really sweet and friendly and a tomboy at heart,
So she grew up really loving sports. She was on
the cross country, swimming, and water polo teams. She was
(16:30):
really bright, had straight age straight a's, straight age, straight age.
People said that she was just a really kind hearted person.
And then Catherine Cooper, she was twenty two, so she
was actually a senior. She was only weeks away from graduating.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
That's fucking tragic.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Also in Delta Delta Delta. She grew up in Chino Hills, California,
and people described her just as super smart and a
lot of people said she was unforgettable. One of her
professors said that she was one of like twenty five
hundred students she's taught and she was just a standout
when it came to Wow, just smarts. She was studying
(17:09):
art history and archaeology. Bamn, no girl, no one of
your owns. Christopher Michael's Martinez, who was twenty was graduating
from UCSB as like a senior with his bachelor's degree.
But he had a really high GPA, graduated within three
years and planned to attend law school.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
So he was also a California native and he was
studying English, so he was getting his degree, his underad
degree in English, and then he was going to go
to law school. His father, Richard Martinez, said, anyone who
knew him knew that he was just a really great kid,
and his death has left our family lost and broken.
Weihan Wang was twenty when he was fatally stabbed by Elliott.
(17:55):
He told his parents that he wanted to move out
of the apartment. Yeah yeah, the next school year. So
he was best friends with the other victim, Chang Hong,
who was twenty. They both of them did not get
along with Roger. Weihan actually studied computer programming, so that
summer he planned to go home to the Bay Area
(18:16):
and visit Yellowstone National Park and celebrate his twenty first birthday.
Oh he was just a baby, of course, his parents say, like,
I was so proud of him. He was my whole life,
and now he's just gone. Changy On Hong, who was twenty,
was reported to be always just incredibly nice to his
fellow classmates and computer programmers. He was also a computer programmer.
(18:37):
A lot of the students just were like, he was
smart as hell. He would give us tips and just
talk with us. So he wasn't one of those freaking
backstab and ass. No, he was like a team player man.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Yeah, supportive and uplifting his friends and colleagues. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (18:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
He was raised in Taiwan and then graduated from high
school in San Jose, California. People said that he was
just the kindest person, super generous, giving, always ready like
to help people out. Once again, another person.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
That had so much potential. Yeah, that's trienseless.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Lastly, there was George Chen, who was nineteen. So when
he wasn't with his friends, which were Hong and Weihan,
Chen could be found giving back to the community. He
volunteered with the Buddhist based organization Suchi and sometimes helped
elderly neighbors get the mail and take out their trash.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
Not so sweet, it's.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Just sweet and helpful and very smart. Again, at a
vigil held for him, his mom spoke of how generous
he was just early early on in high school. She
recalled he would get on a school he would get
to school an hour early every day to help tutor
fellow classmates, and even volunteered at a computer camp for children.
So just all of these people were clearly just so
(19:55):
warm hearted and gentle and kind people, and he absolutely
destroyed not just their lives, but the lives of the people.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Around them, community and families.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
And took a lot away, I think from our community
and our society. When you take out people like that,
it's just horrible. So I wanted to just cover them
super super fast and kind of just to go along
with that. Their parents did not exactly take this laying down,
so they did file some lawsuits against the police for negligence.
One of the victims, Chris, who he kind of talked about,
(20:27):
he was the one who was killed outside of the deli.
His father, Richard Martinez, was fucking vocal about what happened
to his son, so he was not shy about coming
up to politicians and asking them why people would have
the right to bear arms when they were mentally unstable,
but his son couldn't have the right to live, is
(20:49):
what he would say to them, which is pretty sad.
Elliott's father, Peter, met with Chris his father Richard, ten
days after the massacre. Richard asked to meet with Peter,
and when they met up, he brought a box of
Chris's things and just wanted to show them to Peter.
He was like, this is my son. There were pictures trophies,
t shirts, things that Chris loved, and he just wanted
(21:14):
to say, like, look understand my loss, like this is
what you took from me, this is my child. He
said that Peter was really quiet throughout the meeting and
was expressing just like very deep and sincere apologies. I
feel like it's hard because it's hard to blame his
parents for what happened. It's hard for me to say, like.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
I try to get him help and see that he
was in therapy and.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Do like, yeah, they did their best, and his mom
called and wont a wellness check for her son too,
and the police just dropped the ball on that. It's
like kind of fucked up.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
It's very fucked up.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
And I'm sure you know, Peter also just lost his son. Yeah,
and yeah, his son was a fucking kind of a
pos it still has yeah, but he's probably all yeah,
also dealing with the fact that he had obviously no
idea that his son was capable of this kind of shit.
So very sad, fucking I just like give so many
props to Peter for going to that meeting, right and
(22:13):
like sitting through and hearing what Chris's dad had to
say and like looking at Chris and recognizing, like, I
see you, you know what I mean? His mother is
(22:38):
actually still trying to this day, like to make up
for this tragedy. So she actually works to share her
experience and help with like help prevention experts to clarify
like warning signs of what could be happening. She didn't
notice or at least misunderstood a lot of Elliott's warning signs,
(23:01):
and she wants to help prevent things like that in
the future. So I don't know if you know about this,
but Jeffrey Dahmer's father wrote a book called A Father's Story,
which outlined a lot of the things that he noticed
about his son growing up. Elliott's mom, Chin says that
she always felt really close to Elliott, who she believed
(23:21):
was polite and intelligent, even though he struggled with disabilities
that made him shy, awkward. She actually moved his schools
multiple times with him so that he could be in
special education programs and therapies that were tailored closely to
his needs. She knew he was bullied, but she mentions
that she didn't realize he was aggressive. I think that's
probably pretty clear. She felt like he hid a lot
(23:43):
of his real aggressive tendencies from his family.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
And probably only showcased them online through his writing.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
An adage from actually the field of understanding, like psychological
red flags, says that you have to connect the dots
to wait, that can't be right. You have to collect
the dots to connect the dots.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
So profound, very profound.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
So many people might have noticed issues with Elliet, but
because nobody discussed them across groups, nobody was able to
collect all of them and figure out that something was
absolutely going on. She believed that if she reached out
and found out more about her son from lots of
these different groups, and maybe tracked his online activity a
little bit more, she might have been able to figure
(24:31):
things out through a proper threat assessment program. So threat
assessment is this kind of like this new ideology Chin
pushes for it. So she had put her son into therapy,
social counseling, had him on medication, right like we've kind
of chatted about this, But similar to Sue Clibbold, which
is the mother of the Columbine shooters, she started to
try to go back and figure out what the fuck,
(24:52):
what did I do wrong? How did this happen? And
she began meeting with FBI experts to help provide details Elliott,
and eventually, after some time they started asking her to
provide insight at their trainings. Oh wow, okay, so now
she does do like speeches for these FBI pathological experts.
(25:15):
It's like they can start trying to figure out better
threat assessment profiles and like just profiles in general.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Right. I wonder how that works as someone's growing up
and you're seeing those signs like do you like the
number of unreported? I don't know, like, how would they
collect those dots to connect those dots in time when
he was so young?
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Right, Well, and we're going to talk a little bit
about some of what the idea of threat threat assessment is.
Let me just take it back. So there's a little
story that she talks about where a few weeks before
the attack, they had met to eat lunch and she's
she was thrilled because her son seems so happy and
(26:03):
he had suddenly had this huge appetite where he was
just like eating a lot. And to her, she was like, oh,
this is a this is a positive sign, Like he's
suddenly doing so much better. He looks happy, he's eating
in the field, it's called unexpected brightening, or another term
is pink clouding. So this is actually a huge sign
of danger. So yeah, and it's it can be either
(26:26):
to themselves or to others, so kind of important to
keep that in mind. But so what happens is these
people suddenly have a purpose and that purpose gives them
this sense of calm that sets in and it's like
a resolve that they have to do something about this
issue they've been having. So if you know somebody who's
(26:48):
struggling and suddenly they're just doing great, they're maybe they're
giving away their things.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Yeah, which is a big one.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Just maybe keep an eye on it because that can
be a sign that something is very much going on.
And I always say like, it's better to be caught
me up. Yeah, cautious and a little more safe than sorry.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Right.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Another sign that the threat assessment team says is kind
of suspicious, which I would have never in a millionaire
looked at this, but is that Elliott started paying off
like he paid off a parking ticket that he had
been avoiding dealing with forever. Right, And that's Ken's just
made a face like what.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
The fuck is saying when I pay off any before.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Yeah, well his mom was like, Wow, he's getting so
good with money. This is amazing. And it turns out
we found that later this decision was made because he
was trying to avoid interactions with authorities. Yep. So I
think it goes to show you that, like these multiple
(27:51):
things happening at once where they just look benign, put
them together and there's a potential for a threat. So
the threat assessment is gaining popularity as we see more
mass shootings here in the United States for all of
our overseas listeners, like, I'm sure you guys know it
is a huge issue we have where students are often
(28:13):
shooting up their schools. In fact, they just arrested a girl,
did you see that? So Jamie Shockley, eighteen is facing
some conspiracy charges because she planned to shoot up her
school on Valentine's Day at twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Jesus, that was last week.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
She's apparently had access to an AR fifteen rifle, had
just ordered a bulletproof vest, and was obsessed with serial
killers who shot up their schools. So Nicholas Cruz and
Sandy Hook and.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
They be considered serial killers or spring killers.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
I think they're spree killers. Yeah, but either way, she
became super obsessed with these people and had planned to
kind of move forward to with her plans. What's really
interesting is that she had actually just been in an
like a car accident, like a couple of years before,
and her school raised money to help her during that time,
(29:09):
which actually got me thinking about potential brain injuries and
how people can really change after.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Brain your whole personality can change absolutely, and your decision
making ability the frontal lobe is damaged at all.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Oh yeah, like there's a case after case of like
I would just be so curious to see if maybe
that's what was going on. Anyway, So threat assessment gaining
popularity as we're seeing more of these mass shootings boom
end of section two, So I hopefully this will be
our last big switch over. But now we're actually going
to talk about cultural changes. So I figured I'd start
(29:44):
with copycat killer. This copycat Killer. So people who fixate
on misogyny and fixate on anti feminism and things of
that nature are often drawn to Elliott and his ideology
because I guess they feel akin to it, even though
he's a.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
I can relate to the fact that I guess.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
I have. Like I tried, I tried to get into
the mindset, but it didn't work. So I don't know.
I cannot really I cannot relate. I just feel like,
how can you be.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
So blame everyone else for an issue that is clearly
your own? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Yeah, it's like you have like no self like, no
self reflection at all.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Right, well you just deflect it, deflect reflect.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
So I'm like, how can you write stuff like this
and not go Man, that's cringey Jesus lord, oh it's
so bad. But obviously we talked about this last episode,
but he had already been part of groups online back
in the mid odds. So these people, I do think,
have been around obviously for a while. Who knows how
(30:52):
long forever? Maybe I don't know. I don't know. I
really don't know. But many felt like Elliott taking action
was really a way for them to act on their
feelings and act on their fantasies. A BBC article from
April twenty eighteen had the headline how misogynistic killer became
(31:12):
in cell hero.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
I know that's so gross. I know, on puke right now.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
I know, I mean, catchy, catchy title, but still ridiculous, right,
So another in cell named Alec Manassian had launched another
attack in Toronto that same week, So April of twenty eighteen.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
It's back to back.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Yeah. Prior to doing it, he had posted on social
media and I quote this private recruit Manassian infantry zero
zero zero one zero, wishing to speak to sergeant four
Chan please. The in cell rebellion has already begun. We
will overthrow all the Chads and Stacy's all hail the
supreme Gentleman Elliott Roger.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Disgusting, Oh my god, the the dork squad.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Yeah, so the sergeant four Chan obviously, or I guess
maybe not obviously if you don't know. But it's a
reference for see the blog site four chan, which was
just rife with misogynous blogs and conversations. These French communities
worshiped Elliott Roger, suggesting that he was just like they
called him, like a saint, a saint for speaking out
(32:20):
about it's.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Like some sort of a fucking martyr because he killed
a bunch of people because he couldn't get laid, Like,
give me a fucking bird, gave me a sorry.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
The tantrums okay of a community many fans created these
like fan films of his videos, like with like clips
of all his little doors videos, sash.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Kitty, fucking fake ass sorry.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
I'm a god. Fucking stupid T shirts were made of
him with like his selfies yeah, and then it would
say like supreme gentleman underneath and stupid shit.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Like oh bro, not ironic at all. I hate it
so much.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Blog sites like ruddit and eventually fourtan started to ban
and sell discussion groups because they were actually trying to
cut down on violent content. So it's not like these
guys are just getting together and you know, like just saying, oh,
it sucks that I can't get laid. Yeah, it does suck.
Women suck. They're actually so violent that they're getting banned,
which should show you something. In twenty seventeen, a group
(33:24):
composed of around forty one thousand men four one zero
zero zero.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Y'all need to get your fucking shit together, right, Join
a different fucking blog where it teaches you how to
actually talk to people and women in general, and don't
be such a piece of shit. Women don't know you shit.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Sorry, people don't know you shits.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
People don't know your shit. Women especially don't know you shit,
Like we already put up with the nup.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Okay, right, I feel like it's not even that hard
to just be normal, normal guy, be normal.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Just be a good person and have empathy and like Jesus.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Like an actual good person.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Yeah, just don't be a piece of shit.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Remove all that hatred from your heart and see what happens, dude,
And like.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
Damn, feel like it's not that fucking hard.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
But they were no, I'm so serious, but they were
repository for misogynistic abuse, rape threats, and physical threats to chads.
So rape threats to women, physical threats to chads. They
also shut down extreme right groups at this time for
the same violent content because guess what, there's a lot
of crossover. Weird how politically relevant. The copycat twenty eighteen
(34:32):
Toronto van attack, which was that Alec Manassian guy is
where Alec rams his van into twenty six people in Toronto,
so he killed eleven of them and wounded fifteen. Critically,
it was considered the deadliest vehicle ramming in Canadian history. Alec,
unlike Elliott, was caught and charged with ten counts of
first Surrey murder, was found guilty on.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
All counts only ten.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Yeah, I'm not sure I didn't do a deep ding.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
The eleven person maybe died afterwards.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Yeah, or maybe they couldn't prove that he intended to
kill that person. I'm not sure. Okay, but he was
charged with the ten counts of first degree murder. He
was found guilty. He was in prison, So the court
system suggested that not only was his motive in cell ideology,
but also notoriety. So he saw that Elliot Rodger got famous.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
He wanted to be some sort of a insul folk hero.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Girls basically online. They called this the Manosphere.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
The man of Spear Jesus Christ.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
It's an insul community that exists in the Manisphere, where
groups are still around today. One of them is called
Men Going their Own Way mgtow It is an anti feminist,
misogynistic group that advocate for avoiding romantic relationships with women
and avoiding marriage.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
That's fine, do that, but don't fucking be violent towards them.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Arguably the best known group is the red Pill. It's
a Reddit sub forum that once had over two hundred
thousand members when I went to visit it. It is
currently quote unquote quarantined for highly offensive content, but you
can bypass it if you want enjoy the group. No thanks,
they say they're their focus is on a discussion of
sexual strategy in a culture increasingly lacking a positive identity
(36:20):
for men. That's what they say. The group is. So
of course I had to go do some digging.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
Whatever.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Strap on to your buttholes, because wait, that's not right.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Strap on to your belts, hold on to your ball,
put a strap on your butthole.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
Put a strap on in your butthole, y'all because idiot,
I just grabbed them. I grabbed some stuff. I think
I like it.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Yay. So this want to fucking puke quick after every
sentence you say it.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
This uh supreme gentleman named fractal Jester three three three
wrote a little post the other day. Great. It's a hypermasculine,
self aggrandizing reflection on the perceived power of physical dominance
over women, arguing that an imposing physique is the key
to attracting and controlling female attention. The author actually frames
(37:20):
women as biologically programmed to respond to a physical power
and dismisses intellectual tactics as unnecessary when you can just
be physically a beef tough yeah. And also he said,
like women who post online about their physical appearance, that's
all they need, Like they don't need to be intelligent
or anything like that. And I'm like, sir, what sir?
(37:43):
So he says, and I have a couple of quotes
here that I just they absolutely fucking sent me into
another universe. Okay, So I honestly just think it's blank
as fuck to be showing off your body all the
time like a thirst trap attention seeking chick. So he says,
I don't. I think it's a name that we we
don't want to be through showing off our body all
(38:04):
the time like a thirst trap, attention shaking girl. But
then he does it, because that's what the whole point
of this post is about.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
That's about how can huge irol I think.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
My cannot do this fucking post. I was like pissing myself.
So this guy, he talks about how he posted selfie
online and he had just got done working out, so
he was really small. Oh yeah, And suddenly he started
noticing that aside from all the likes from all these
women who are in like relationships liking his picture, I know,
(38:34):
watch out world, he also started seeing girls posting like
selfies in their close friends that are obviously for him.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Fucking what did they post them directly underneath your posts,
like in your post bro.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Or stories on their own? And this man was like,
it's bring me because I'm a piece of stupid dude.
And then he's he went on to talk about his
video and he's like, the video looks straight, dylanous, not
gonna lie. My work paid off. But the female response
was just textbook dog. I I don't know how to
(39:10):
tell you how goofy this shit is. It's just like
it's so hard for me to take it seriously, but
then I turn around and see people are killing people
for it.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
Yeah, I can.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Understand maybe, like you said earlier, why those psychologists were
just like taken aback because.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
You don't expect you dorky kid to fucking Yeah, I
don't know.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
I forgot to say earlier that these communities are so
virulently misogynist that an organization that tracks hate groups, Southern
Poverty Law Center, has been watching them for like ten years.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
So why haven't I got shut down before?
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Free speech?
Speaker 2 (39:50):
It is what it is.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
So they just watched them.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
They just watched them, and they're like, do something.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Act on it, act on it, and then finally so
when it's too late, then they act Okay, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
Yeah, that's why'm like throat assessment. So before we kind
(40:23):
of change, I lied. I guess I have switched over
to like laws and how laws have been changed because
of this. I kind of thought we could talk a
little bit about, like the feminist response to this.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
I wanna saying is that, yeah, in cells need to
get a fucking hobby that doesn't involve hating women, And like.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
I don't know why you're so obsessed with us, Like, get.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
A hobby, get a job. Fucking Jesus.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
Yeah, that's just so sad.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
I really don't have empathy. But at the same time,
it's like, bro, I that's all that consumes your entire being.
You really need to fucking just get a hobby and maybe, yeah,
I don't know, take a fucking gender studies class if
(41:22):
they're allowed to be taught anymore, read a fucking some
feminist fucking books, and just realize that maybe you're the problem.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
I just do some soul searching, some soul searching, literally,
I don't know, scrape the iceberg of what the fuck
is wrong with.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
You, right, I don't know. That's all I gotta say
about that. It's great, No, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
It bears repeating that misogyny like this kills, Yes, it
kills people. There's always this thing where men feel like
they're being like they're upset because women are giving them attention,
and they're like, well, I don't know why women need
to be feminists and all that shit, but women.
Speaker 6 (42:02):
Are feminists literally getting killed over ordered. Yeah, they're being
physically harmed. They're not just getting their egos hurt. So
women responded to this in the best way that they
know how, which is usually by getting together and trying
to explain to people that their bodies are not objects.
(42:25):
There were some protests. One of the big feminist pushes
was something called hashtag yes All Women Yes, which was
a reaction to the shootings that occurred.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Right, and it just builds on that idea of yes,
every single woman you know has been harassed at some point,
whether it gsp verbally, physically sexually by men.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
Right, and so yes all Women was like a Twitter
hashtag back back in the day. I don't know, maybe
call it accident.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
In twenty fourteen, after the killing that started right, Twitter.
And then there was another one that was created in
response called hashtag not all men.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Oh yes, I remember, not all men, So yes all
women was created where users would just share examples or
stories of misogyny and violence that occurred against them, their fears,
and how pretty much every single woman you know has
been afraid of a man at some point or horrified
(43:27):
or abused.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
And or discriminated against.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
Yeah, and experienced misogyny. I mean I feel like that
is why it's such an important movement. And like you said,
the response of not all men, quote unquot was these
guys being like, I do' not like that.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
What the fust I've never done that to a woman?
Speaker 1 (43:47):
Yeah, yeah, but nobody said you did.
Speaker 5 (43:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Like, if you're not the problem.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
We're not saying yes all men, we're saying yes all women.
It's not about you, Jesus.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
So if you're not the problem, then you have nothing
to worry about.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
Yes, you do, though, because it could be your friends.
It could be your family members that are the ones
doing the harassing. So just keep it in mind if
you hear one of your friends being misogynistic or sexist,
fucking nip it in the bud. Because true that, and
it starts with everyone just calling it out for what
it is too.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Just be like, we don't do that here, brother, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Not cool. Don't laugh about it, and don't join in.
Do not engage unless you're fucking shutting that shut down.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
Absolutely. Some feminists have pointed out, like they always say,
like white terrorism is based on like guns or mental
health issues, but we don't often look at poisonous ideology
as a reason for this occurring. So if we're talking
about tragic shootings in terms of mental illness, obviously that
is a main component, but there's also a cultural sickness
(44:52):
that some people believe is permeating a lot of these people.
Which makes sense because we kind of mentioned earlier where
if Elliott didn't have somebody to go in and echo
chamber with, right, would he have still done what he
did right?
Speaker 2 (45:08):
Or would he have gotten the idea too, or would
he have had on.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
Maybe not his feelings? Yeah, exactly exactly. One feminist blogger
also said, like dismissing violent misogynists as crazy, like saying, oh,
that person's.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
Just nuts, That doesn't help anything.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
Right, is the way of saying like this is an
individual problem.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
And not a cultural prober, right, right.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
Like, this person's just a fucking basket case, and this
isn't a fucking sickness.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Right, It's just a singular person, not an entire group
of people. A large group of people, he said, two
hundred thousand in some cases.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
That's crazy. That's a huge amount of people. And the
truth is that there may not actually be like there
may be a lone misogynists, but those misogynists become deeply
rooted in their ideology by sharing ideas and building a
community against women is at this point almost always foreseeable.
(46:05):
If you look at a lot of what these killers
are doing before they go out and attack, it's interacting
with others that are and feeling the same way and
promoting this fucking hatred. There's a lot of even to
this day, people going back and forth on what type
of issue this is if it's you know, a feminine issue,
(46:25):
and does the feminist issue of it detract from the
mental health issue? Does the mental health issue detract from
the gun violence issue? Clearly this is a what was
it called when all the things come together?
Speaker 2 (46:36):
This is like a intersection.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
This is an intersection of all of these issues and
they're all fucking important, and we all need to take
them seriously. There's this old thing like where I was
a vegan for a while and people would be like, well,
what about plants, what about the fields that they have
to create? A fatfu? And I always said, like, at
least you're doing something right, at least you're fighting for something.
(47:03):
And I think if you want to fight for plants,
fight for plants maybe, but plant rights, plant rights, do
what you gotta do, but just try to stay on
top of it and make the world a little bit better.
But super wild case. I want to thank you all
for sitting through the whole thing. It's been an experience.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
It's a difficult case to talk about too, just because
of all the fallout from it and the fact that
there is still violence towards women happening every single fucking day, and.
Speaker 1 (47:32):
These groups are still up and active.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
So thank you all so much for joining us again
today on this day my Cat's continued exactly. We appreciate
all your speaky squads hanging with us again. Just a reminder,
we're going to be taking a couple of weeks off
to try to get back on track with recording. Last week,
(47:58):
we're supposed to record and they close on camp.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
It's snow and they closed campus in the morning, and
then there was a little opening. I had one class
and then they closed it again.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
Yeah, it was freaking ridiculous. So we will just focus
on getting some cases recorded and then getting them out
at a more regular interval after that. Yeah, if you
have any case corrections, how many cases you want us cover,
have any bakery items you want us to look at,
or coffee shops you want us to visit, reach out
to us on Instagram.
Speaker 7 (48:25):
Scream Dot and Dot Sugar Dot podcast on Facebook, Scream
and Sugar True Cram Coffee Hour, well on TikTok, Scream
dot and Dot Sugar, or on Gmail Scream and Sugar
renail at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Otherwise, we hope to catch you all in the next
one and remember say.
Speaker 5 (48:40):
Spooky bye bye.
Speaker 3 (49:23):
I'm working on sunchi
Welcome back, everybody to another episode of Scream and Sugar,
your true crime coffee hour, the podcast that dives into
the darker side of humanity while enjoying a little sweetness
on the side. I am your host, Sahara. I'm Candace,
and today we're going to be covering the Elavista murders
and Elliott Roger Part two. Hello Candace, Hello Sahara, immediately
(00:55):
by unbond Hello Candice. Hi, Saharah, welcome back.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yeah a minute, I know.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
I think it might be worthwhile to take a couple
weeks off. Yeah, and then you and I just record,
so a couple of weeks off for the listeners, so
that you know that there's going to be a couple
of weeks off, and then hopefully we will have some
backstock recorded.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
There we go.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
I think that's a good plan. So expect a little break,
little break, you break. Consider this season one is ending,
Season two is starting.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
There we go.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
But welcome back, everybody. I know we left off last
week at the end of the Ilavistic killings and the
death of Elliott Roger. Just to recap super quickly, what
happened was Elliott Roger was experiencing a little bit of
a decline as he became more and more angry with
(01:54):
women who he could not date or romance and with
men who were able to talk to women easily. He
was part of the in cell community or involuntary celibate community,
and through this community, became more and more enraged with
people who were finding love. He left a large one
(02:15):
hundred and thirty seven page manifesto which was this incredibly
long self pitying document that he wrote and sent out
to his friends from childhood, which is bizarre. His family
and like his therapists and social workers that were kind
of trying to help him before he decided to go
out and go on what was basically a killing spree.
(02:39):
He wanted to attack, if y'all recall, a sorority house
which was full of women that he considered to be
the hottest in town, but after being unable to access
their home and a lot of them were actually out
of town, he went ahead and shot some other sorority
girls who were walking down the street, and then took
police on a car chase as he ran down whoever
(03:00):
he could find walking down the street and shot at
people out out of his car window. He ended up
shooting a couple other people on his way through the
town and through E La Vista, and then he ended
everything by shooting himself in the head, which caused his
car to crash into a biker like a bicyclist who
then fell onto his windshield, and the cops arrested that
(03:23):
poor man and then let him go.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
So he shot himself in the head while he was
still operating the vehicle that caused him to run into
Like I correct, I thought he crashed and then.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
No, dude, he shot himself in the head and that
caused the car to bear off the roads. Just absolute chaos.
I do feel like I want to touch on one
little thing, a little correction. So I actually was browsing
and found an article that stated that his family wasn't
as wealthy as in maybe I made it seem in
the last episode. So his father was a photographer and
(03:54):
a film director, but he was in debt what they
considered to be deep debt, and his mother was a
research assistant for a film company, and another source said
she was a personal assistant to a wealthy family. Allegedly,
according to divorce documents, she made about forty K a year.
They divorced though in nineteen eighty nine, which comes out
(04:17):
to about seventy five K to day, So I'm not
sure also has a kid super wealthy but not poor.
But I also don't know because my parents went through
a pretty nasty divorce, and sometimes you fudge the numbers
on your docks to try to make it seem like
you're not making as much so you don't need to
pay your partner or you get more child's work. Yeah,
(04:37):
so obviously they do not appear to be as wealthy
as some other folks that his family interacted with. In
his manifesto, he often talks about how he was mad
that his parents weren't as rich as other people's parents,
so he wanted to be part of that very very
(04:59):
rich uppresh. I will also just mention that his parents
knew a lot of people, so he got a lot
of perks from that. So like once he received tickets
to a private Katie Perry concert so in the midots, like,
I think that's a pretty big deal.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
That was a big deal.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
I mean, he woren't designer clothes. He drove a BMW
that was a gift from his mother, So again, he
wasn't poor by any stretch.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
It's like upper middle class or like low upper class.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Yeah, I think he's probably low upper classes what I
would assume. According to his manifesto, he blamed his mother
because she didn't remarry into wealth, and he said that
that was very selfish of her, because she should have
married a wealthy man so that he could have lived
this wealthy life, and she should have done it.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
For him me too.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
He said in his manifesto that it would help him
achieve quote high enough status to attract beautiful girlfriends and
live above my enemies end quote fucking dork wow for
In his manifesto, he also expresses issues with his father,
suggesting that his father, Peter Roger, wasted his money making
this documentary as opposed to really just focusing on getting money.
(06:14):
I will mention that his dad was an assistant director
on The Hunger Games, so I'm not sure exactly what
the debt thing was. At the time, his mother was
paying his rent again, he she gifted him that BMW
three twenty eight I, which was around like a forty
two thousand dollars car. His father sent him five hundred
(06:34):
dollars a month back in the early mid oughts and
he also received income from his grandparents.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
So but he's just a freeloader. Yeah, he expects everything
to come to him easily because he's probably never he's
never had a work for anything.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Right, So, I don't know. I saw the article, I
read through the article, did some digging, and I was like, Uh,
this kid isn't.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
Like your average middle class kid. He's not even your
average like average class kid, not at all. So yes,
still just quick correction. Now, let's move on to a
little bit about the diagnosis that he had before and
(07:28):
then some of the diagnosis that he received after his
case when people started really looking through that manifesto. So
he started showing symptoms of high functioning autism. Obviously pretty
early on, he had stemming behavior and overstimulation responses, which
were a large part of the family's lives. Around like
seven and earlier. In high school, he received the full
(07:49):
diagnosis of something called a pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified,
which is a long title that covers a really broad
category that is now known as broad spectrum autism. Okay,
that being said, he was technically under the threshold for
autism spectrum disorder. According to questionnaires that he took. I've
(08:10):
also taken those questionnaires. I'm also under the threshold like
by a lot, but that doesn't I don't know if
that really means anything unless a clinical psychologist.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Is looking at it.
Speaker 5 (08:20):
Right.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
That's just where were you taking the surveys at.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
I took an autism Spectrum disorder class here, So yeah,
I took it here. That being said, I just want
to make it very clear, very very clear, that because
he had autism, he did not commit these crimes. People
with autism do not commit no crimes like this at all.
It was a small part alongside many other comorbidities, including
(08:46):
obviously psychopathy, depression, narcissism, and this crazy sense of entitlement.
All of these things combined helped to influence his mindset
and then it was him himself that to do this.
He knew what was wrong, he hid it from people.
This was not because he had autism. Like just making
that so clear. He had been prescribed things like xanix.
(09:10):
He was taking his xanax on the day of his rampage,
but he was also prescribed medication for things like depression
and anxiety, but he wrote in his manifesto that he
was not taking it. So he was not taking a
lot of the medication that he was supposed to be taking,
but was indulging in what are they called benzos. At
the time of the attacks, he was meeting with actually
multiple youth life coaches, so they would meet with him
(09:34):
to do activities that encouraged his social skills. They would
go on walks and kind of like try to help
him do some talk therapy through the issues that he
was having connecting with his peers. I will say he
had actually some pretty close connections with these people, but
we'll go into it in a little bit, but a
predominant theme here is this extreme social isolation, in this
(10:00):
pathological jealousy that he seems to have for other people.
The myth perpetuated by the media like after these incidents occurred,
was that he was this like stone cold, calculated kill
machine and he was completely disconnected from his mental state.
He lacked command of his body. And this is something
that we've seen time and time again with the media
(10:20):
where they kind of pushed this ideology that everybody is
just completely emotionless than do these type of killings. But this,
as we know, was not true. He planned it for
like a year. He was not inundated by hallucinations and delusions.
He just had some very extreme issues where he felt
alone and he felt like jealous. Like many other killers,
(10:41):
he was like, this is keepy keep. He was clearly isolated, angry,
and desperate. So many experts believe that there's only really
a thin line that separates homicidal from suicidal intent. So
this is kind of an interesting little take on it.
So therapy, they believe, isn't always going to work because
(11:02):
many people will mask these emotions even in therapy. Oh yeah, absolutely,
So it's uncomfortable, as I'm sure many of you know,
to share these really deep or dark thoughts or feelings.
So a lot of people after the fact, they don't
hear about this, and they just assume that these killers
are just Bundy esque I guess what I mean, right.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Or that they had access to resources and weren't utilizing them.
But clearly he was and it wasn't working right.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Right, Elliott's perception was out the whole world hated him
and was rejecting him, which kind of fueled the distance
between him and others, right, which kind of ended up
obviously leading to the attack at the Santa Barbara City
College one of his counselors did talk to the press,
saying that he liked his two male counselors, but then
(11:48):
would become enraged if they could interact well with others.
So he was very friendly with them. He talked to
them a lot, interacted with them a lot, but then
the second he saw them interacting well, he would get
so jealous that it would enrage him. He also connected
with a female counselor, which this is very interesting, but
he was pissed off because he felt like he had
to pay for her company. Yeah, so he felt like
(12:10):
he was giving her money so that she would talk
to him, and a really sad turn of events. She
ended up making a statement later saying that like she
was shocked. She was shocked by this because she's the
Elliott that she said, like, I know, was not this
kind of person. He wasn't aggressive, he wasn't vindictive, and that.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Just goes to show you how much of a mask
he put up.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
In fact, his father tried to get this other friend
of his, a Hollywood producer, to help mentor his son
because he was like, something ain't ricrin. So this guy's
name is Dale Wanner, and Dale said that he met
with Elliott a few times, but he was kind of
freaked out because Elliott had an unhealthy entitlement about women.
So he said, Elliott was paralyzed by timidity, but I
(12:55):
never thought he would be violent. So kind of just
goes to show you like people didn't exist actly know.
And we're going to go into this a little bit more,
but it's almost like everybody had a little piece of
the puzzle. So switching switching rolls a little bit, switching topics,
switching rolls like where are we going, switching gears a
(13:16):
little bit. And I'm probably gonna do this a lot
because I wrote this out in kind of these like
weird sections, but I do want to just cover our
victims a little bit more. Obviously, since the shooting, the
victims families have fought tooth and nail for gun control,
which I think makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Like how did this have access?
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah, I do think there's obviously a fine line there
because if I'm in therapy, does that mean that I
should not have access to the right to bear arms
just because of a therapy? No, And if these counselors
that were with him every day did not think he
was violent, it's where do we draw that line?
Speaker 2 (13:55):
I don't know, well, even then, to do they communicate
with one another like the FDA and whoever you're going
to get your background check? Is that on your background
check when you go get a gun?
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Right, that's a good question. I don't know. From what
I found while doing this digging, it seemed like nobody,
and we hear this time and time again, Right, nobody
thought that this person was capable of those kind of things.
But then we.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Didn't expect it of him because he was so timid
and was kind of this dorky kid. So they didn't
put it like two and two together. Right, They didn't
think that he was maybe capable of doing something like
that because he was such an or just dorky young kid.
They were probably thinking, maybe he'll he's.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Just going through a phase.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Yeah, maybe he's going through a phase. Maybe he'll develop
those skills a little bit better and learn how to
talk women.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Well, it makes you wonder how much just interacting with
a group of freaking misogynists influence.
Speaker 5 (14:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Absolutely, But either way, the dusts of these people obviously
absolutely shattered the lives of their families. They were all smart, loving,
just really young kings. Like when I think about We've
talked about this so many times, like what we were
doing at that age, like we you know, you're an adult,
(15:13):
but it doesn't necessarily feel I don't.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Feel like an adult sometimes now when I'm thirty five.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Girl, I think about my age sometimes and I'm.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Like, what I thought about it? Okay, how to do
a deep dive? In my class yesterday because we talked
about like your first sport that you ever played, and
I was like soccer colored. I was like five five six,
and I was like, holy shit, that was thirty years ago.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
And then I wanted to cry, Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Yeah, they were just so young and really just starting
their lives. I feel like figuring out who they.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Are absolutely like, and they had so much potential, Like
one of the victims was an inspiring lawyer to were
like sorority sisters, three were best friends. So they all
had like just their own lives going on. And I
feel like Elliott Rodgers is dole last because of envy
(16:09):
and just a wild mindset. So Veronica Weiss, who was
only nineteen, was a freshman at UCSB, so she was
considered really sweet and friendly and a tomboy at heart,
So she grew up really loving sports. She was on
the cross country, swimming, and water polo teams. She was
(16:30):
really bright, had straight age straight a's, straight age, straight age.
People said that she was just a really kind hearted person.
And then Catherine Cooper, she was twenty two, so she
was actually a senior. She was only weeks away from graduating.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
That's fucking tragic.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Also in Delta Delta Delta. She grew up in Chino Hills, California,
and people described her just as super smart and a
lot of people said she was unforgettable. One of her
professors said that she was one of like twenty five
hundred students she's taught and she was just a standout
when it came to Wow, just smarts. She was studying
(17:09):
art history and archaeology. Bamn, no girl, no one of
your owns. Christopher Michael's Martinez, who was twenty was graduating
from UCSB as like a senior with his bachelor's degree.
But he had a really high GPA, graduated within three
years and planned to attend law school.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
So he was also a California native and he was
studying English, so he was getting his degree, his underad
degree in English, and then he was going to go
to law school. His father, Richard Martinez, said, anyone who
knew him knew that he was just a really great kid,
and his death has left our family lost and broken.
Weihan Wang was twenty when he was fatally stabbed by Elliott.
(17:55):
He told his parents that he wanted to move out
of the apartment. Yeah yeah, the next school year. So
he was best friends with the other victim, Chang Hong,
who was twenty. They both of them did not get
along with Roger. Weihan actually studied computer programming, so that
summer he planned to go home to the Bay Area
(18:16):
and visit Yellowstone National Park and celebrate his twenty first birthday.
Oh he was just a baby, of course, his parents say, like,
I was so proud of him. He was my whole life,
and now he's just gone. Changy On Hong, who was twenty,
was reported to be always just incredibly nice to his
fellow classmates and computer programmers. He was also a computer programmer.
(18:37):
A lot of the students just were like, he was
smart as hell. He would give us tips and just
talk with us. So he wasn't one of those freaking
backstab and ass. No, he was like a team player man.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Yeah, supportive and uplifting his friends and colleagues. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (18:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
He was raised in Taiwan and then graduated from high
school in San Jose, California. People said that he was
just the kindest person, super generous, giving, always ready like
to help people out. Once again, another person.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
That had so much potential. Yeah, that's trienseless.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Lastly, there was George Chen, who was nineteen. So when
he wasn't with his friends, which were Hong and Weihan,
Chen could be found giving back to the community. He
volunteered with the Buddhist based organization Suchi and sometimes helped
elderly neighbors get the mail and take out their trash.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
Not so sweet, it's.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Just sweet and helpful and very smart. Again, at a
vigil held for him, his mom spoke of how generous
he was just early early on in high school. She
recalled he would get on a school he would get
to school an hour early every day to help tutor
fellow classmates, and even volunteered at a computer camp for children.
So just all of these people were clearly just so
(19:55):
warm hearted and gentle and kind people, and he absolutely
destroyed not just their lives, but the lives of the people.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Around them, community and families.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
And took a lot away, I think from our community
and our society. When you take out people like that,
it's just horrible. So I wanted to just cover them
super super fast and kind of just to go along
with that. Their parents did not exactly take this laying down,
so they did file some lawsuits against the police for negligence.
One of the victims, Chris, who he kind of talked about,
(20:27):
he was the one who was killed outside of the deli.
His father, Richard Martinez, was fucking vocal about what happened
to his son, so he was not shy about coming
up to politicians and asking them why people would have
the right to bear arms when they were mentally unstable,
but his son couldn't have the right to live, is
(20:49):
what he would say to them, which is pretty sad.
Elliott's father, Peter, met with Chris his father Richard, ten
days after the massacre. Richard asked to meet with Peter,
and when they met up, he brought a box of
Chris's things and just wanted to show them to Peter.
He was like, this is my son. There were pictures trophies,
t shirts, things that Chris loved, and he just wanted
(21:14):
to say, like, look understand my loss, like this is
what you took from me, this is my child. He
said that Peter was really quiet throughout the meeting and
was expressing just like very deep and sincere apologies. I
feel like it's hard because it's hard to blame his
parents for what happened. It's hard for me to say, like.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
I try to get him help and see that he
was in therapy and.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Do like, yeah, they did their best, and his mom
called and wont a wellness check for her son too,
and the police just dropped the ball on that. It's
like kind of fucked up.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
It's very fucked up.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
And I'm sure you know, Peter also just lost his son. Yeah,
and yeah, his son was a fucking kind of a
pos it still has yeah, but he's probably all yeah,
also dealing with the fact that he had obviously no
idea that his son was capable of this kind of shit.
So very sad, fucking I just like give so many
props to Peter for going to that meeting, right and
(22:13):
like sitting through and hearing what Chris's dad had to
say and like looking at Chris and recognizing, like, I
see you, you know what I mean? His mother is
(22:38):
actually still trying to this day, like to make up
for this tragedy. So she actually works to share her
experience and help with like help prevention experts to clarify
like warning signs of what could be happening. She didn't
notice or at least misunderstood a lot of Elliott's warning signs,
(23:01):
and she wants to help prevent things like that in
the future. So I don't know if you know about this,
but Jeffrey Dahmer's father wrote a book called A Father's Story,
which outlined a lot of the things that he noticed
about his son growing up. Elliott's mom, Chin says that
she always felt really close to Elliott, who she believed
(23:21):
was polite and intelligent, even though he struggled with disabilities
that made him shy, awkward. She actually moved his schools
multiple times with him so that he could be in
special education programs and therapies that were tailored closely to
his needs. She knew he was bullied, but she mentions
that she didn't realize he was aggressive. I think that's
probably pretty clear. She felt like he hid a lot
(23:43):
of his real aggressive tendencies from his family.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
And probably only showcased them online through his writing.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
An adage from actually the field of understanding, like psychological
red flags, says that you have to connect the dots
to wait, that can't be right. You have to collect
the dots to connect the dots.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
So profound, very profound.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
So many people might have noticed issues with Elliet, but
because nobody discussed them across groups, nobody was able to
collect all of them and figure out that something was
absolutely going on. She believed that if she reached out
and found out more about her son from lots of
these different groups, and maybe tracked his online activity a
little bit more, she might have been able to figure
(24:31):
things out through a proper threat assessment program. So threat
assessment is this kind of like this new ideology Chin
pushes for it. So she had put her son into therapy,
social counseling, had him on medication, right like we've kind
of chatted about this, But similar to Sue Clibbold, which
is the mother of the Columbine shooters, she started to
try to go back and figure out what the fuck,
(24:52):
what did I do wrong? How did this happen? And
she began meeting with FBI experts to help provide details Elliott,
and eventually, after some time they started asking her to
provide insight at their trainings. Oh wow, okay, so now
she does do like speeches for these FBI pathological experts.
(25:15):
It's like they can start trying to figure out better
threat assessment profiles and like just profiles in general.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Right. I wonder how that works as someone's growing up
and you're seeing those signs like do you like the
number of unreported? I don't know, like, how would they
collect those dots to connect those dots in time when
he was so young?
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Right, Well, and we're going to talk a little bit
about some of what the idea of threat threat assessment is.
Let me just take it back. So there's a little
story that she talks about where a few weeks before
the attack, they had met to eat lunch and she's
she was thrilled because her son seems so happy and
(26:03):
he had suddenly had this huge appetite where he was
just like eating a lot. And to her, she was like, oh,
this is a this is a positive sign, Like he's
suddenly doing so much better. He looks happy, he's eating
in the field, it's called unexpected brightening, or another term
is pink clouding. So this is actually a huge sign
of danger. So yeah, and it's it can be either
(26:26):
to themselves or to others, so kind of important to
keep that in mind. But so what happens is these
people suddenly have a purpose and that purpose gives them
this sense of calm that sets in and it's like
a resolve that they have to do something about this
issue they've been having. So if you know somebody who's
(26:48):
struggling and suddenly they're just doing great, they're maybe they're
giving away their things.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Yeah, which is a big one.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Just maybe keep an eye on it because that can
be a sign that something is very much going on.
And I always say like, it's better to be caught
me up. Yeah, cautious and a little more safe than sorry.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Right.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Another sign that the threat assessment team says is kind
of suspicious, which I would have never in a millionaire
looked at this, but is that Elliott started paying off
like he paid off a parking ticket that he had
been avoiding dealing with forever. Right, And that's Ken's just
made a face like what.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
The fuck is saying when I pay off any before.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Yeah, well his mom was like, Wow, he's getting so
good with money. This is amazing. And it turns out
we found that later this decision was made because he
was trying to avoid interactions with authorities. Yep. So I
think it goes to show you that, like these multiple
(27:51):
things happening at once where they just look benign, put
them together and there's a potential for a threat. So
the threat assessment is gaining popularity as we see more
mass shootings here in the United States for all of
our overseas listeners, like, I'm sure you guys know it
is a huge issue we have where students are often
(28:13):
shooting up their schools. In fact, they just arrested a girl,
did you see that? So Jamie Shockley, eighteen is facing
some conspiracy charges because she planned to shoot up her
school on Valentine's Day at twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Jesus, that was last week.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
She's apparently had access to an AR fifteen rifle, had
just ordered a bulletproof vest, and was obsessed with serial
killers who shot up their schools. So Nicholas Cruz and
Sandy Hook and.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
They be considered serial killers or spring killers.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
I think they're spree killers. Yeah, but either way, she
became super obsessed with these people and had planned to
kind of move forward to with her plans. What's really
interesting is that she had actually just been in an
like a car accident, like a couple of years before,
and her school raised money to help her during that time,
(29:09):
which actually got me thinking about potential brain injuries and
how people can really change after.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Brain your whole personality can change absolutely, and your decision
making ability the frontal lobe is damaged at all.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Oh yeah, like there's a case after case of like
I would just be so curious to see if maybe
that's what was going on. Anyway, So threat assessment gaining
popularity as we're seeing more of these mass shootings boom
end of section two, So I hopefully this will be
our last big switch over. But now we're actually going
to talk about cultural changes. So I figured I'd start
(29:44):
with copycat killer. This copycat Killer. So people who fixate
on misogyny and fixate on anti feminism and things of
that nature are often drawn to Elliott and his ideology
because I guess they feel akin to it, even though
he's a.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
I can relate to the fact that I guess.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
I have. Like I tried, I tried to get into
the mindset, but it didn't work. So I don't know.
I cannot really I cannot relate. I just feel like,
how can you be.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
So blame everyone else for an issue that is clearly
your own? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Yeah, it's like you have like no self like, no
self reflection at all.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Right, well you just deflect it, deflect reflect.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
So I'm like, how can you write stuff like this
and not go Man, that's cringey Jesus lord, oh it's
so bad. But obviously we talked about this last episode,
but he had already been part of groups online back
in the mid odds. So these people, I do think,
have been around obviously for a while. Who knows how
(30:52):
long forever? Maybe I don't know. I don't know. I
really don't know. But many felt like Elliott taking action
was really a way for them to act on their
feelings and act on their fantasies. A BBC article from
April twenty eighteen had the headline how misogynistic killer became
(31:12):
in cell hero.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
I know that's so gross. I know, on puke right now.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
I know, I mean, catchy, catchy title, but still ridiculous, right,
So another in cell named Alec Manassian had launched another
attack in Toronto that same week, So April of twenty eighteen.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
It's back to back.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Yeah. Prior to doing it, he had posted on social
media and I quote this private recruit Manassian infantry zero
zero zero one zero, wishing to speak to sergeant four
Chan please. The in cell rebellion has already begun. We
will overthrow all the Chads and Stacy's all hail the
supreme Gentleman Elliott Roger.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Disgusting, Oh my god, the the dork squad.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Yeah, so the sergeant four Chan obviously, or I guess
maybe not obviously if you don't know. But it's a
reference for see the blog site four chan, which was
just rife with misogynous blogs and conversations. These French communities
worshiped Elliott Roger, suggesting that he was just like they
called him, like a saint, a saint for speaking out
(32:20):
about it's.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Like some sort of a fucking martyr because he killed
a bunch of people because he couldn't get laid, Like,
give me a fucking bird, gave me a sorry.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
The tantrums okay of a community many fans created these
like fan films of his videos, like with like clips
of all his little doors videos, sash.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Kitty, fucking fake ass sorry.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
I'm a god. Fucking stupid T shirts were made of
him with like his selfies yeah, and then it would
say like supreme gentleman underneath and stupid shit.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Like oh bro, not ironic at all. I hate it
so much.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Blog sites like ruddit and eventually fourtan started to ban
and sell discussion groups because they were actually trying to
cut down on violent content. So it's not like these
guys are just getting together and you know, like just saying, oh,
it sucks that I can't get laid. Yeah, it does suck.
Women suck. They're actually so violent that they're getting banned,
which should show you something. In twenty seventeen, a group
(33:24):
composed of around forty one thousand men four one zero
zero zero.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Y'all need to get your fucking shit together, right, Join
a different fucking blog where it teaches you how to
actually talk to people and women in general, and don't
be such a piece of shit. Women don't know you shit.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Sorry, people don't know you shits.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
People don't know your shit. Women especially don't know you shit,
Like we already put up with the nup.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Okay, right, I feel like it's not even that hard
to just be normal, normal guy, be normal.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Just be a good person and have empathy and like Jesus.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Like an actual good person.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Yeah, just don't be a piece of shit.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Remove all that hatred from your heart and see what happens, dude,
And like.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
Damn, feel like it's not that fucking hard.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
But they were no, I'm so serious, but they were
repository for misogynistic abuse, rape threats, and physical threats to chads.
So rape threats to women, physical threats to chads. They
also shut down extreme right groups at this time for
the same violent content because guess what, there's a lot
of crossover. Weird how politically relevant. The copycat twenty eighteen
(34:32):
Toronto van attack, which was that Alec Manassian guy is
where Alec rams his van into twenty six people in Toronto,
so he killed eleven of them and wounded fifteen. Critically,
it was considered the deadliest vehicle ramming in Canadian history. Alec,
unlike Elliott, was caught and charged with ten counts of
first Surrey murder, was found guilty on.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
All counts only ten.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Yeah, I'm not sure I didn't do a deep ding.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
The eleven person maybe died afterwards.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Yeah, or maybe they couldn't prove that he intended to
kill that person. I'm not sure. Okay, but he was
charged with the ten counts of first degree murder. He
was found guilty. He was in prison, So the court
system suggested that not only was his motive in cell ideology,
but also notoriety. So he saw that Elliot Rodger got famous.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
He wanted to be some sort of a insul folk hero.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Girls basically online. They called this the Manosphere.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
The man of Spear Jesus Christ.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
It's an insul community that exists in the Manisphere, where
groups are still around today. One of them is called
Men Going their Own Way mgtow It is an anti feminist,
misogynistic group that advocate for avoiding romantic relationships with women
and avoiding marriage.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
That's fine, do that, but don't fucking be violent towards them.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Arguably the best known group is the red Pill. It's
a Reddit sub forum that once had over two hundred
thousand members when I went to visit it. It is
currently quote unquote quarantined for highly offensive content, but you
can bypass it if you want enjoy the group. No thanks,
they say they're their focus is on a discussion of
sexual strategy in a culture increasingly lacking a positive identity
(36:20):
for men. That's what they say. The group is. So
of course I had to go do some digging.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
Whatever.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Strap on to your buttholes, because wait, that's not right.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Strap on to your belts, hold on to your ball,
put a strap on your butthole.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
Put a strap on in your butthole, y'all because idiot,
I just grabbed them. I grabbed some stuff. I think
I like it.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Yay. So this want to fucking puke quick after every
sentence you say it.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
This uh supreme gentleman named fractal Jester three three three
wrote a little post the other day. Great. It's a hypermasculine,
self aggrandizing reflection on the perceived power of physical dominance
over women, arguing that an imposing physique is the key
to attracting and controlling female attention. The author actually frames
(37:20):
women as biologically programmed to respond to a physical power
and dismisses intellectual tactics as unnecessary when you can just
be physically a beef tough yeah. And also he said,
like women who post online about their physical appearance, that's
all they need, Like they don't need to be intelligent
or anything like that. And I'm like, sir, what sir?
(37:43):
So he says, and I have a couple of quotes
here that I just they absolutely fucking sent me into
another universe. Okay, So I honestly just think it's blank
as fuck to be showing off your body all the
time like a thirst trap attention seeking chick. So he says,
I don't. I think it's a name that we we
don't want to be through showing off our body all
(38:04):
the time like a thirst trap, attention shaking girl. But
then he does it, because that's what the whole point
of this post is about.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
That's about how can huge irol I think.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
My cannot do this fucking post. I was like pissing myself.
So this guy, he talks about how he posted selfie
online and he had just got done working out, so
he was really small. Oh yeah, And suddenly he started
noticing that aside from all the likes from all these
women who are in like relationships liking his picture, I know,
(38:34):
watch out world, he also started seeing girls posting like
selfies in their close friends that are obviously for him.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Fucking what did they post them directly underneath your posts,
like in your post bro.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Or stories on their own? And this man was like,
it's bring me because I'm a piece of stupid dude.
And then he's he went on to talk about his
video and he's like, the video looks straight, dylanous, not
gonna lie. My work paid off. But the female response
was just textbook dog. I I don't know how to
(39:10):
tell you how goofy this shit is. It's just like
it's so hard for me to take it seriously, but
then I turn around and see people are killing people
for it.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
Yeah, I can.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Understand maybe, like you said earlier, why those psychologists were
just like taken aback because.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
You don't expect you dorky kid to fucking Yeah, I
don't know.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
I forgot to say earlier that these communities are so
virulently misogynist that an organization that tracks hate groups, Southern
Poverty Law Center, has been watching them for like ten years.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
So why haven't I got shut down before?
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Free speech?
Speaker 2 (39:50):
It is what it is.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
So they just watched them.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
They just watched them, and they're like, do something.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Act on it, act on it, and then finally so
when it's too late, then they act Okay, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
Yeah, that's why'm like throat assessment. So before we kind
(40:23):
of change, I lied. I guess I have switched over
to like laws and how laws have been changed because
of this. I kind of thought we could talk a
little bit about, like the feminist response to this.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
I wanna saying is that, yeah, in cells need to
get a fucking hobby that doesn't involve hating women, And like.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
I don't know why you're so obsessed with us, Like, get.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
A hobby, get a job. Fucking Jesus.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
Yeah, that's just so sad.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
I really don't have empathy. But at the same time,
it's like, bro, I that's all that consumes your entire being.
You really need to fucking just get a hobby and maybe, yeah,
I don't know, take a fucking gender studies class if
(41:22):
they're allowed to be taught anymore, read a fucking some
feminist fucking books, and just realize that maybe you're the problem.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
I just do some soul searching, some soul searching, literally,
I don't know, scrape the iceberg of what the fuck
is wrong with.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
You, right, I don't know. That's all I gotta say
about that. It's great, No, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
It bears repeating that misogyny like this kills, Yes, it
kills people. There's always this thing where men feel like
they're being like they're upset because women are giving them attention,
and they're like, well, I don't know why women need
to be feminists and all that shit, but women.
Speaker 6 (42:02):
Are feminists literally getting killed over ordered. Yeah, they're being
physically harmed. They're not just getting their egos hurt. So
women responded to this in the best way that they
know how, which is usually by getting together and trying
to explain to people that their bodies are not objects.
(42:25):
There were some protests. One of the big feminist pushes
was something called hashtag yes All Women Yes, which was
a reaction to the shootings that occurred.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Right, and it just builds on that idea of yes,
every single woman you know has been harassed at some point,
whether it gsp verbally, physically sexually by men.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
Right, and so yes all Women was like a Twitter
hashtag back back in the day. I don't know, maybe
call it accident.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
In twenty fourteen, after the killing that started right, Twitter.
And then there was another one that was created in
response called hashtag not all men.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Oh yes, I remember, not all men, So yes all
women was created where users would just share examples or
stories of misogyny and violence that occurred against them, their fears,
and how pretty much every single woman you know has
been afraid of a man at some point or horrified
(43:27):
or abused.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
And or discriminated against.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
Yeah, and experienced misogyny. I mean I feel like that
is why it's such an important movement. And like you said,
the response of not all men, quote unquot was these
guys being like, I do' not like that.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
What the fust I've never done that to a woman?
Speaker 1 (43:47):
Yeah, yeah, but nobody said you did.
Speaker 5 (43:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Like, if you're not the problem.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
We're not saying yes all men, we're saying yes all women.
It's not about you, Jesus.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
So if you're not the problem, then you have nothing
to worry about.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
Yes, you do, though, because it could be your friends.
It could be your family members that are the ones
doing the harassing. So just keep it in mind if
you hear one of your friends being misogynistic or sexist,
fucking nip it in the bud. Because true that, and
it starts with everyone just calling it out for what
it is too.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Just be like, we don't do that here, brother, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Not cool. Don't laugh about it, and don't join in.
Do not engage unless you're fucking shutting that shut down.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
Absolutely. Some feminists have pointed out, like they always say,
like white terrorism is based on like guns or mental
health issues, but we don't often look at poisonous ideology
as a reason for this occurring. So if we're talking
about tragic shootings in terms of mental illness, obviously that
is a main component, but there's also a cultural sickness
(44:52):
that some people believe is permeating a lot of these people.
Which makes sense because we kind of mentioned earlier where
if Elliott didn't have somebody to go in and echo
chamber with, right, would he have still done what he
did right?
Speaker 2 (45:08):
Or would he have gotten the idea too, or would
he have had on.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
Maybe not his feelings? Yeah, exactly exactly. One feminist blogger
also said, like dismissing violent misogynists as crazy, like saying, oh,
that person's.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
Just nuts, That doesn't help anything.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
Right, is the way of saying like this is an
individual problem.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
And not a cultural prober, right, right.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
Like, this person's just a fucking basket case, and this
isn't a fucking sickness.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Right, It's just a singular person, not an entire group
of people. A large group of people, he said, two
hundred thousand in some cases.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
That's crazy. That's a huge amount of people. And the
truth is that there may not actually be like there
may be a lone misogynists, but those misogynists become deeply
rooted in their ideology by sharing ideas and building a
community against women is at this point almost always foreseeable.
(46:05):
If you look at a lot of what these killers
are doing before they go out and attack, it's interacting
with others that are and feeling the same way and
promoting this fucking hatred. There's a lot of even to
this day, people going back and forth on what type
of issue this is if it's you know, a feminine issue,
(46:25):
and does the feminist issue of it detract from the
mental health issue? Does the mental health issue detract from
the gun violence issue? Clearly this is a what was
it called when all the things come together?
Speaker 2 (46:36):
This is like a intersection.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
This is an intersection of all of these issues and
they're all fucking important, and we all need to take
them seriously. There's this old thing like where I was
a vegan for a while and people would be like, well,
what about plants, what about the fields that they have
to create? A fatfu? And I always said, like, at
least you're doing something right, at least you're fighting for something.
(47:03):
And I think if you want to fight for plants,
fight for plants maybe, but plant rights, plant rights, do
what you gotta do, but just try to stay on
top of it and make the world a little bit better.
But super wild case. I want to thank you all
for sitting through the whole thing. It's been an experience.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
It's a difficult case to talk about too, just because
of all the fallout from it and the fact that
there is still violence towards women happening every single fucking day, and.
Speaker 1 (47:32):
These groups are still up and active.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
So thank you all so much for joining us again
today on this day my Cat's continued exactly. We appreciate
all your speaky squads hanging with us again. Just a reminder,
we're going to be taking a couple of weeks off
to try to get back on track with recording. Last week,
(47:58):
we're supposed to record and they close on camp.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
It's snow and they closed campus in the morning, and
then there was a little opening. I had one class
and then they closed it again.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
Yeah, it was freaking ridiculous. So we will just focus
on getting some cases recorded and then getting them out
at a more regular interval after that. Yeah, if you
have any case corrections, how many cases you want us cover,
have any bakery items you want us to look at,
or coffee shops you want us to visit, reach out
to us on Instagram.
Speaker 7 (48:25):
Scream Dot and Dot Sugar Dot podcast on Facebook, Scream
and Sugar True Cram Coffee Hour, well on TikTok, Scream
dot and Dot Sugar, or on Gmail Scream and Sugar
renail at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Otherwise, we hope to catch you all in the next
one and remember say.
Speaker 5 (48:40):
Spooky bye bye.
Speaker 3 (49:23):
I'm working on sunchi
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