May 20, 2025 • 42 mins
Welcome back ya'll! Today, we are diving deep into one of the creepiest cases we've covered. This is one of Brazil’s most disturbing and unexplained cases — the Guarapiranga Reservoir Mutilation. In 1988, the body of an unidentified man was discovered near São Paulo's Guarapiranga Reservoir. What shocked investigators wasn't just the death — it was the horrifying, surgical precision of the mutilations. No blood. No signs of struggle. No clear cause of death. Was it a sadistic human crime, an elaborate cover-up, or something far more unexplainable? Join us as we dissect the forensics, explore the theories — from criminal to paranormal — and piece together the unsettling puzzle that has baffled experts for decades.
Case Notes:
https://realhorrordiaries.blogspot.com/2023/01/obscure-occurrences-mystery-behind-body.htmlHow bodies found in water can be difficult to understand: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1756231721001249Stages of decomposition:https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10493-009-9284-9Creeptime link: https://www.reddit.com/r/creeptimethepodcast/comments/1j66rjt/ep_134_the_mutilated_body_discovered_near_brazils/#lightboxhttps://realhorrordiaries.blogspot.com/2023/01/obscure-occurrences-mystery-behind-body.html#google_vignette
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/scream-and-sugar-true-crime-coffee-hour--6015946/support.
Case Notes:
https://realhorrordiaries.blogspot.com/2023/01/obscure-occurrences-mystery-behind-body.htmlHow bodies found in water can be difficult to understand: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1756231721001249Stages of decomposition:https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10493-009-9284-9Creeptime link: https://www.reddit.com/r/creeptimethepodcast/comments/1j66rjt/ep_134_the_mutilated_body_discovered_near_brazils/#lightboxhttps://realhorrordiaries.blogspot.com/2023/01/obscure-occurrences-mystery-behind-body.html#google_vignette
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/scream-and-sugar-true-crime-coffee-hour--6015946/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome back, everybody to another episode of Scream and Sugar,
your true crime copy hour.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm your host, Sahara, I'm Candace, and.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Today we're going to be covering the South Paulo Guadapurunga
mutilation case.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Could be worse, yeah, could be great, could be that
could be the best one. So let's just nap it.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
I forgot the whole, the second part of the drug.
I'm done with it, dude, I can't do any more
too much.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
This is a podcast we talk about fucked up shit, okay,
and we eat treats on the side.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Eat treats on the sad, Sweet treats. Sweet treat, Sweet treat,
sweet treat. That's part of my problem, dude, is a
but clonking thanks today.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
I just feel it a little bit clonky.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
I'll be laying in bed at night at like eleven
thirty in a month.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
It sounds real, dude. I could go for a little
sweet tree right now, always me after I eat anything.
I'm like, I could follow that up.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
With something a little tasty.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Man.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Yeah, it's a fucking problem.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
I must slept for yogurt beach too. So anytime we
have like dinner at home, Like, well, we could go
out for ice cream, and Alex is like, we have
ice cream at home.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
But it's not the same. I got yogurt, beach.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
I can't put all my top ands on. I don't
have no cheesecake bites.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
I love the cheesecake bites.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Anything.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
It was a checake.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
It's a cheesecake, yogurt with that and then some strawberries, dude,
some peanut butter. Yeah. Now I'm gonna try to get
mencelex ever tonight.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
It's our last day of being bad, get good super.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yep, the last one. Way.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I tell William that all the time. I'm like, don't worry, babe,
it's the last day. And then like the next time
we'll actually I gotta really go for a little swait raight.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
No, that's we both do the same ship. Alex was
like doing yoga in the kitchen this morning when I
like walked in to make coffee and I was like,
good for you, smoked out.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
We're like, wow, this is so nice for you, so
cool that you could eat so much alfredo.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
And then and then just jump up and do yoga.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Oh she well, Hello, my fellow views, Hello, fellow slooths. Hello,
fellow slouths, welcome back. We are obviously in a goofy
silly mood. However, this is not a very goofy silly case.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Oh my god. No, she was just following me and
on some of the small deats, and I was like, Jesus,
but Jesus, Jesus.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
But Jesus, Yes, this case is crazy. I started out
researching a different case and then got distracted by this
one and have been.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Trapped inspired case because they do be hitten sometimes.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
They really do be hitting. No, no joke about it.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
I think there's a spu about my case.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Really, yeah, that's exciting because I've probably seen it. But
this guy, uh, this one, Yeah, blew my mind. It's
something I'm probably not going to be able to stop
thinking about. But first, allow us to plug our little
coffee shop dish moment. So this morning I hit up
(03:56):
a spot called west Side Cafe and Coffee Company.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Such a cute name it is, but they they are
like this little.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Hole in the wall looking diner thing next to the
Coals down off Seventh Street. It has like a coals
and a verizon. It's like almost like one of these
strip malls that they're called what coals.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Are you in South r now now? Oh shit, dude,
I don't know where apartment is.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Oh shit, you.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Should come by.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
I just don't have a lot of seating, so I
feel like I keep saying that, but it's like really
stressing me out.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
She was like, oh, what did Williams say we could
get a couple of recliners in there, and you just
loo You're like, I've been trying to get a fucking couch.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
That can be like I fit more people. I'm like,
we should get a sectional in here, it will make
more sense. And he's like, but then he will go
out in public and be like, oh yeah, we'll just
grab some recriining chairs and we're just down there and
I'm the perfect husband. It drives me fucking crazy. I'm like,
you make me look insane, you make me look in sane.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Oh no, I know that feeling all too well. But anyway, okay,
So it's everywhere with the Coles, West Side Coffee, Coat
Cafe and what.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
West Cafe and coffee company and coffee. Yeah, it's really affordable.
So yeah, really really affordable. I think for an asshot
it was like fifty cents.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Oh damn.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
I was like okay, prices like, I love that. But
they make their scones because as I was ordering, I
saw this little thing in the back of scones and
I was like, can I get one of those? And
she was like, yeah, it's a blueberry scone. They're made
fresh daily. I love them. They're fluffy, they're light. They're
clearly not like hard as rock scoons that you get
(05:45):
super tasty and then not too sweet. Yeah, not too sweet.
I really really enjoyed that. The coffee is interesting. The
coffee is different.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Do they roast their own coffee? I'm really not sure, okay,
because that might just be like they just have a
special blend that we're not used to you.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Yeah, it's possible. I do think they. They have like
one hundred Trani syrups in there, so it's possible that
I'm just also not used to like the Tarrani flavor.
I don't know fair, but the motion is really unique
that you usually get just your This is true. Mar
I am normally a very land girly, but today I
(06:24):
got a mocha and Kennie's got a.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Vanilla chat with an airshot that fifty cent a chat,
which is brilliant I know, I was like, what I
need that I have lighthouse by my house and it's
really very expensive but delicious. So derailed this so many times.
It's gonna.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
It's me that do you reula? So yeah, this case
is a freaking wild one, So strap on your bules
because it's gonna be It's gonna freak you out. It
freaks me out. So September twenty ninth, nineteen eighty eight,
this is the eighty We are in sal Palo, Brazil,
(07:02):
and you're not gonna believe what they found near the
Guaraparinga Gua Perga, the Guada Paranga reservoir. So this boy,
this kid was going I think it was like bird hunting.
So he had like a slingshot that he was using
to go bird hunting, and he's walking along this reservoir
(07:23):
and salo and he sees a group of vultures and
they're sitting over something and he's like cool, like maybe
I can hit one of them, and so he goes
to shoot them with his little his little sling shot
thing and he misses and they just kind of get
scared off. And when they take off, he noticed that
(07:44):
what they are crowding around is in fact not an animal,
but appears to be the nude mutilated body of a man.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Fuck. So I hate that kids that find that is
so traumatizing.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Forever they will, yeah, have that memory and this particular body.
I can only hope that he just like didn't look
too closely.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
He probably would haven't poked that ship the stick. Kids
be curious, kids do be curious. I wouldn't poke it
with but I would have been like, oh my god.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Well, and it's like you hear cases of adults all
the time being like I wasn't even sure what I
was looking at. Right to go and take a closer look, I.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Don't think your brain really wants to register.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
So unfortunately for that child, yeah, he did find this.
This is a very infamous case because of how unusual
and precise these mutilations appeared on the body. So authorities
show up, they kind of quarantine off the area, and
people in this town were kind of like, who could
it be? I wonder what person you know who got killed?
(08:48):
And it's spreading like wildfire. This information is spreading across
the town and people are kind of hoping to see
some information maybe on like the six o'clock news and
it never comes.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
They don't even report on it. Are they not allowed to?
Speaker 1 (09:04):
That's one of the theories is that this is like
a cover very hush hush that I know. Oh, I know,
it's so weird. So these injuries were so surgical in
appearance that to some they actually seemed beyond human capability
at the time mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Like average human or they're saying, like surgical precision or
not even well, we're going to get.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Into a girl because it's gonna break you the fuck out.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
The heaps.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
So yeah, I kind of mentioned that it really wasn't
reported on. It was just like there and gone.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Was the word of mouth only people.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
It kind of became like a myth almost in this area.
And then all of a sudden, like I want to say,
like the early two thousands ish, somebody leaked information like
the documents that were associated with the autopsy, not the
full autopsy, but just like documents associated with it. Okay,
And so I will have to put a caveat here.
A lot of what I'm going to tell you today
(10:01):
is based on what others have reported on because I
do not speak or read Portuguese, so I have no idea.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
How to my friend translate for us.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Hey, friend, Julia, Julia, let's go. I'll call you right
now because yeah, I want, I want to really dig
into this because I'm so freaking curious. So here's the
thing that.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Alex mind too, because he knows a little French and a.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Lot of Spanish.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
A little friends. Let's go, babe, let's go and FaceTime
you right now because the ship like, yeah, mind blowing. Okay,
and you have a picture.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Oh, I have all the pictures. In fact, let me
send them to you so that you can look at
them and follow along. There will be a link in
the show notes for the rest of you as well
if you want to follow along with this case. And
I will tell you that these photos are extremely graphic,
so keep that in your mind. You can't find them
on the internet yourself if you want. There are also
(11:03):
some renditions that are like like drawings, like the body,
so that's a little less graphic that'll be linked as well.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Were those drawings done by like investigators.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
No, it is somebody who did the drawings of the bodies,
like the photos of the bodies.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Bodies.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Oh sorry, spoiler, not spoilers. This body. The somebody did
drawings of the photos.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Of the body.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Okay, so the body, as I mentioned, was found on
the banks of this reservoir, and when the authorities got there,
they noticed, of course that the corpse was severely mutilated.
It was a little bit bloated due to decomposition occurring.
But one thing that really surprised them was that there
were no immediate signs of struggle or defensive wounds, no
(11:57):
notably like noticeable like restraint marks or anything like that.
And the scene also lacked blood, suggesting that the wounds
were probably inflicted somewhere else. Yeah, inflicted somewhere else. I
will say. There is a lot of speculation around this
case involving whether or not those wounds were inflicted post
(12:20):
mortem or anti mortem, and a lot of independent like
snooths out there have suggested that the wounds are post mortem,
and that's what ends up being reported on the death certificate,
which we will get into later. However, if you look
at these wounds, you will kind of see some interesting
(12:40):
things in regards to like coloration along where the wounds are,
which leads others, including myself to think that some of
them were inflicted anti mortems. It looks like to me, yeah,
so we'll kind of get into it, but first I
figure to chat about the state of the body. So
(13:04):
upon closer examination, these mutilations appeared to be highly specific
and metholodical. Oh my god, no, I can't say it methodical.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Is there er in there?
Speaker 1 (13:19):
I don't know. I was like, that can't be right,
Highly specific and methodical, with features including like the eyes
had been gouged out and removed, which you can say
potentially was from you know, the animals, It's pretty common
of them. The tongue and the lips were removed. The
(13:40):
ears were missing, so.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Like surgically removed.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Okay, so these were surgically removed. Not the eyes as
far as they can tell, but the rest of it
was surgically removed.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Yeah, flies like flies and maggots go straighter like eyes
and mouth, no soft tissues.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah. The wounds were very clean, very symmetrical. They didn't
have jagged edges on them, so surgically removed. But they
also didn't appear to be a lot of blood that
may have been associated with these wounds, which again can
lead to the fact that the king the joking speculating,
(14:23):
she was just speculating. Yeah, so the facial skin had
been stripped off surgically, exposing all the raw tissue that
was underneath on the lower half of the face, and
big portions of the lower jaw was missing.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
I want to see pictures.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
I know we're gonna get story. We're so close. Additionally,
there were these circular wounds that were found across the body,
so these were puncture wounds. They were about one point
five inches in diameter. They were found on the armpits,
on the forearms, the legs. One was also located right
on the navel, and these wounds, which there are photos of,
(15:01):
were symmetrically aligned on opposite sides of the body. Upon
further investigation, they found that the flesh underneath these wounds
was completely extracted, so there.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Was tissue sample.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Yeah, one of the freaking forearm muscles had been removed
and basically pulled out through this. They then started to
you know, go through the autopsy, and they found that
the liver, kidney's, stomach, and intestines and pancreas all missing,
but there were no notable signs that he had been
opened up except for that one one point five inch diameter.
(15:42):
The abdominal cavity had collapsed inward, and they started to
think that actually what had happened was that these organs
were extracted through the circular holes on the navel. Oh
my god, Muscle tissue for certain parts of the body
had been removed through the holes, and the organs had
(16:04):
been removed through the holes.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
That's impossible. How would you fit a whole loss livery
through a one point five diameter inch diameter.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Right, The rectum and the scrotum also surgically removed, and
a circular opening was left where the colon would normally be.
This I do believe was done anti mortem prior to
his death, and I'll show you why again. No blood
at the scene or around the body. Either he had
(16:33):
had his blood removed during this experimentation or whatever you
want to call it, or he had been killed elsewhere
and left.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Here, right, that's fine.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Most people tend to Most people think that he actually
had the blood in his body removed during this experiment
or during this while he was still alive. That's that's
what a lot of people think. I don't know if
it's just people sensationalizing this because they it's fucking freaky,
(17:06):
but it is just.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
What would lead them to believe that he was still alive,
because I mean, your heart pumps a lot of fucking
blood and the shit. So if you're still alive and
you're getting your blood drained, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
There's some there's some interesting theories.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
That his veins were completely empty too, and veins.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Yeah, you have no blood in his body. But they're
trying to say that it was a natural death. Was
natural causes was all the time? Yeah, of course obviously. Additionally,
the wounds appeared to be sealed or cauterized, fueling theories
that a high energy tool or advanced technology was using lasers.
Despite the mutilations, Like I said before, the victim's body
(17:47):
posture suggested no struggle, no attempt to escape. They also
did a talks screen. They found no paralytics, no inethesia.
How are they doing a tox screen with a no
tissue samples? I think you can take tissue samples. But
what's interesting is they also didn't have access to things
like the liver, so yeah, kind of freaky, kind of freaky. Additionally,
(18:13):
they found even though this man had been missing for
two days, so they do eventually figure out who he is.
You've been missing for two days. All of these wounds
appeared to have happened within twenty four hours. Yeah, because he.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Had been where are you go missing from?
Speaker 1 (18:30):
We'll kind of get in, Okay, we'll get okay. Now
that I've kind of explained to you these wounds, I'd
like you to take a peek.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
I'm gonna freak out here we go. Yeah, it looks
like there's blood pooling around where those puncture wounds are at.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Right, And do you see kind of how they have
that that black It almost looks like brew or something similar.
That is really unusual. Because I spent a lot of
time trying to figure out I.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Almost want to ask my professor tomorrow about.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
This fucking do it? Give us some updates because I.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Like, doctor still, why does he look like this? And
she's like, oh, blah blah blah blah. She'sn be like
what the fuck.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Are you shying? Like this is gonna suck for you,
but I need to know the answer.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
No, she doesn't give a fuck, Like all our slides
for that class are like, oh, sorry, supposed to give
your heads up. It's a dead body. I love her.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
I'm sorry. So yeah, I mean I looked at post
and anti mortem wounds, Like all day yesterday, I could
not find something that.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Looked like that similar to that, which.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Was so confusing because normally, if you have bruising, that
indicates that the blood is still flowing at the time
right that something occurs.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
It almost looks like necrotic around.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Yeah, it's very interesting. I did find through some deep
research that it is more likely for an open wound
to begin decaying, So that was like I was like,
maybe maybe it's just decay. But again, I really have
not seen I could not find ones that looked exactly
like that unless there was one.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Well, the rest of the soft tissue also doesn't like
look standard as far as like what standardy conflict would
look like right within twenty four hours, especially since he
doesn't have any of his organs, so like you don't
have the off gassing from that.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Right, and apparently he wasn't in rigor mortis, which he wasn't.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
In rigor mortis, that's what they say, Well, you start
to lose rigor mortis.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Well, I know, but after, isn't it after? Like it
sets in at twelve hours and it goes from twelve
to like thirty six or something.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
It did?
Speaker 1 (20:45):
It varies because it's not he was by the water,
so I tried to like keep that in mind, like,
and it's humid down there, it's very humid. I don't know, man,
it's very freaky.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
But yeah, the fact like his eyes, like around the
top of his head, it looks like it's also that
black discoloration, and then the I mean, I don't know
if it would have just been the vultures going for
the softest part of the tissue first, But as far
as like the jaw right a mandable being exposed already.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
The missing colon really breaks me out. Oh yeah, because
there's a lot of what looks like like blood associated
with that, which would indicate that maybe there was some
bleeding involved anyway, breaky stuff.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
I'm trying to read the fucking I was like, I
know a little.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Like maybe I can get through this encyclopedia. So there
are a lot of theories around what likely happened here.
I will say there is a very very famous like
video like YouTube video in this case where they talk
about how that the toxicology report obviously had no signs
(22:05):
of inesthesia or a paralyzing drug, leading people to believe
that the victim was fully conscious when his body was
undergoing these mutilations.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Which is good, My god, sorry, he was fully conscious.
He was fully conscious.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
That's what the That's what people take from. Oh, you're all.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
But he's not struggling, so it seems like was he
any doesn't there's no signs of like ligature marks or
anything like restraining him.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Yes, exactly. So I have some theories on that as well.
But I did just want to point out that some
sources say that the autopsy report suggested that the victim
had died due to cardio respiratory arrests, which had been
caused by extreme pain. And how they got to this
was that the victim's body showed signs of a cerebral edema.
(22:54):
So despite having an undamaged skull, that suggests that he
may have died because the because of the stress and
the pain that the body was coming on awful. I
don't know how true that is, Okay, I really don't.
First of all, it's really hard to say for sure
that a cerebral edema was caused by pain, because even
(23:21):
though they didn't show any damage to the skull, it's
possible like something else happened. Also, I don't know, I
don't know. It's hard for me. I can't read it,
so it's hard to say for sure. I don't know
if this is just exaggerated or yeah, no, you're good.
I was just reading this. This source says that although
(23:42):
the body was discovered while being covered by flocks of vultures,
there was no signs to suggest that they had fed
on the flesh. I don't think that's true either. Hard
to say for sure.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Why wouldn't vultures be feeding all the flesh, because that's
what they do. Els they're just checking it out, and
they're like, what the fuck, they're all damn. All the
juicy bits are inappropriate, the juice a bit. But I mean, seriously,
I just I can't imagine that's true. So they end
up finding out that the victim was a fifty three
(24:11):
year old man from the area. He suffered from epilepsy,
and he was a victim of alcoholism, so he was
often drinking and that caused sometimes fits. Additionally, he was
a huge fisher, so he was always like out at
the reservoir fishing. Okay, okay, so that would make sense
(24:33):
for his location.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Yes, Like I said, he was missing from multiple days
prior to the discovery of his body. But I will
also mention that they concluded that these wounds were less
than twenty four hours old, and so he had died
less than twenty four hours in the past, which is
kind of interesting. So where was he the first couple
of days.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
For the first twenty four hours.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Yeah, so the medical examiners had made a suggestion that
maybe he was taking a journal to treat epilepsy, and
that maybe he mixed alcohol with that medication, which could
have had a very strong and deadly reaction that basically
knocked him unconscious, and then he died from exposure to
the elements over time or had the coronary I don't
(25:20):
know about that. They ended up speculating that, get this,
the holes in the body were rats or small rodents
that had burrowed into his body eight the like tissues
that were inside and then crawled back out through the holes.
That is their speculation on the.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
More equidistant from each other. That's not how rats operate.
I agree. Also, they would go for the soft issue
in the face and the groin first, or if there
was like a hole already pre made. I agree.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
I think that is it.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Literally, they come later to like they come after maggots, small.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Heights, and I will say, like there is there are
some cases specifically around like water and like you were saying,
in high humidity, whereas the body begins to desiccate the
holes themselves, they may shrink, so it causes shrinkage, and
then that may make them appear more round, more surgical
(26:23):
than they actually are. For this case, though, it's hard
to say. It is hard to say. I mentioned to
Canvas earlier and I can't remember if I already mentioned
it to you guys, But at the time, I found
an article that talks about how from the year nineteen
eighty to about two thousand and two, a lot of
the death certificates and autopsies that were being performed in
(26:46):
South Pallo were considered like kind of poor and it
may have been due to lack of resources and training.
But because of that, it's kind of hard, I think,
to base everything on the autopsy autopsy report, because we
really just we don't know, we don't know, and this
(27:06):
is a weird, weird result that they came up with.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
One who knows who was doing the autopsy too. If
you're saying that there's a lack of medical examiners or
like anyone that has the right sort of education or
knowledge of that type of ship. Then they're just going
to put like easiest, the easiest thing, right, natural causes
because they were drunk and had epilepsy and fucking mixed alcohol. Yeah,
(27:33):
and then rats came and but the volt but where's
where are all of his organs? And right?
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Well, and despite this evidence suggesting that like something freaky
happened to this guy, the authorities just closed the case
almost immediately. And that's why they never never were good
out on the media.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah, they just like don't know what. Yeah, that sucks,
poor guy.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Oh yeah, So it was actually in nineteen eighty. It
was in nineteen ninety four that the case was actually
leaked back into the public view. That ended up making obviously.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
So five years later, six years I haven't asked, No,
it's okay, I had to do it to six years later.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
They suggest that the public was intentionally misled by the authorities.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Yeah, I mean, they don't want people sneaping around or
like having some sort of a frenzy because of a
suspicious death.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Exactly, exactly. Sorry, I'm reading those message on one thing
that so there's a lot of theories, a lot of
theories on what the fuck happened to this guy. One
of them is that epilepsy patients, though they don't technically
suffer any pain during a seizure, they it may cause
that cerebral edema. So they're saying, oh, there's a chance
(28:50):
that that's what happened.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
He could have fallen and yeah, I'm gonna move.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Out just to be like, where's the blood, Where is
the but well?
Speaker 2 (28:57):
And where's intestins? Where is the blood? Where are the eyes?
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Where the eyes? Where are the eyes? I mean hopefully
those things went into the culture. Yeah, so obviously there
(29:26):
were a lot of theories. One of the ones that
you know, people were thinking about early was organ traffickers.
So they said, well, maybe you know, his organs are missing,
maybe somebody took them to sell them on the black market. However,
there's a couple issues with that. Number One, if you're
slurping them out through a hole that's one and a
half inches wide, I don't think they're going to be
(29:46):
very usable.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
That's what I'm saying. Liver would not a fit through that.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
And number two is usually if you're an.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Organ trafficker or kidney probably not.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
No, No, definitely not, dude, And like it just doesn't
it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
That's hard. Was his heart there?
Speaker 1 (30:02):
I think the heart was there. Well, that's a problem, dude,
is because the one of the original ones said that
it was all all the organs were gone. M But
then the more I've looked into it, the less I
think that's true. That's the problem is. I think people
make it more sensationalized.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
M M.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
It doesn't need to be more sensal.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
He had no organs, he had no eyes.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
But the vultures weren't even feeding on him, Like, come on, guys.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
They're just kind of hanging out looking.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Liver, kidney's stomach and testines and pancreas were missing, while
heart was still there.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Heart should have been still there, yeah, and the lungs.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
Lungs were still there. Yeah, So it was kind of
this lower just.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
The little rabitinment area.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
Yeah, interesting, which would makes sense because of the that's
where the.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Hole ones was really around the nable.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
But pretty freaky either way. Additionally, people who are taking organs,
they're not presenting the bodies to be found right again,
and without any blood at the scene, you have to
assume that he was moved, right. I had to rule
that out pretty quickly.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
And then just like dumping it somewhere that do you
know people are going to come come find him.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
That's what makes me think it's it's less about like business,
do you know what I mean? A lot of a
lot of people mentioned and we've mentioned this already, but
they talk about how similar this is to the cattle
mutilations that are seen when it comes to like alien
abductions and UFO stories. People suggest that he was abducted,
(31:39):
held in a spaceship, experimented on, and then returned to
Earth after being subjected to all of these biological extractions
where they removed his organs, removed different parts of the
muscle using some sort of laser.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Yeah, forgot about the muscle part. Weird, it's so weird.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
So the precise nature of the wounds do resemble very
similar ones that you would see in cattle where they
have those little holes. A lot of the time, the
lower part of the face is either missing or the
skin is removed, I know, cheeks and chin. There's no
(32:19):
evidence of traditional surgical tools being used, especially like back
in the eighties. We can do some pretty cool stuff
now with like micro tools and things, but back then,
especially out maybe outdoors, maybe not. You know, it's kind
of hard to say. And again the body appeared to
be in sanguinated without any signs of blood in the area,
(32:41):
which is kind of freaky. There are there are some
arguments against us, one of them being that these injuries
can technically be forensically explained in a way if you
think about it, And that's my feelings.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
It's hard to say, like, how do you disprove aliens?
How do you prove aliens? It's hard to say, Like
an aliens man, a lot of people will die on
that hill. Yeah, that this man was kidnapp by aliens,
And I mean it is freaky. But personally for me,
I really feel like this seems most likely to be
a case where maybe somebody was doing some medical experimentation, Yeah,
(33:28):
where they were interested in seeing if their techniques might work.
That I think makes a lot of sense to me. There,
what is the thing called where it's the most simple
is usually the right one?
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Oh shit? What rule is that? The most simple explanation?
Okham's razor?
Speaker 1 (33:49):
Right, Okham's razor. To me, I just I feel like
it makes the most sense that somebody was just playing
around because when it comes to the post mortem decomposition
and animal scavenging, which is what is I guess the
most likely scenario in the minds of the investigators, I
feel like a lot of weird things had to align
(34:09):
perfectly for that to happen. He had to have been
like killed elsewhere or died elsewhere. He had to maybe
float down the river end up in a different location
without his blood, without his organs.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Yeah, I don't know. It was a reservoir, so that's
a man made like like, so I'm not thinking that
there's a river or anything. And if you didn't have
signs of water logging from being in the water, that's interesting.
But he could have been wiped down and cleaned. And
(34:42):
I mean, I don't know how you would get rid
of all the blood without like having some sort of
butchery skills and like hanging them and just draining the
blood out right.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Like, and how were they removed?
Speaker 2 (34:53):
And it's possible, and why did you want the rectum
and the screwed him.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
A lot of things you're removed, and it it does
appear to be surgical.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
So they're just do you think it was just somebody that.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Was curious, you know, who else had a lot of
curiosity about body parts? Was all Jack the.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Ripper Mm hmm, that's true.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
And his were quick, clean, very violent.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
I don't know. And then coulterization like the colonization is
very interesting too. Yeah, maybe it was a butcher, but
they just wanted to see what it would be like
to you.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Yeah, or maybe they made their own tools. Maybe they
were utilizing like some really early on LA liposcopy experiments, soldering,
like there's just so many It makes more sense to
me that this was somebody trying to see what they
could get away with.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Honestly, probably were there similar cases.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
And I have looked everywhere trying to find similar cases
to this, and I cannot find any interesting.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
They were just on vacation and then moved.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
On, maybe dude, or maybe they just thought that nobody
would end up finding this body.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
And it was naked. They didn't find his clothes, no clothes.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
So there are a couple different things that I was
able to find as far as paralytics that will not
be found.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
In an autosum.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
So one of them is called sascinocholine it's a paralytic
that is metabolized really quickly in the body, and it's
often undetectable in toxicology reports. It will paralyze the subject,
but they will not become conscious. So it is something
that you could use to prevent somebody from moving around
Jesus Christ. Another option that I was able to dig
(36:41):
up was potassium. So if you overdose somebody with potassium
called hypercalemia, high doses can paralyze muscles. They can actually
cause heart attacks yea, and eventually it will kill you.
And because potassium is found naturally in the body, it's
really hard to detect on a test, especially back in
(37:02):
the eighties. So yeah, this case, this mutilation case, has
been the subject of various theories regarding the cause of death,
including I forgot to mention this one. Some people think
that it's a ritualistic killing because of the very specific
things that were removed, like the rectum, the nuts wait,
(37:22):
I shouldn't say the testicles.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Sorry, the nuts, the butts, the.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Nuts, the butts, Jesus, I can't say it, Like, yeah,
they chopped off his uh testicles, the ears and the
eyes and like the tongue were all removed. That kind
of reeks of ritualistic killing.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
I would feel like the heart would have been taken.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
To honestly the same, but maybe not.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
I do feel like when it's ritualistic, isn't aren't usually
isn't there like some sort of message that's being sent
or like symbols.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
That maybe was he a straight man? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (38:02):
I think so. I was thinking, maybe, oh yeah, I
hate crime. Yeah I could, I could see that. But
I believe he was streaming because he had a family.
But then again, eighties, so Palo hard to say, hard
to say, but either way, it remains one of Brazil's
most bizarre cases. I think it is one of the
(38:23):
most bizarre cases we've ever covered. Yeah, there's so many
theories and honestly so little true evidence. Like we really
need an in depth copy of the autopsy report, and
we need to see who else the medical examiner reviewed
and how good they.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Were, what their qualifications were. Because Nashville causes me thinks not.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Me thinks not. But I don't know, what do you
guys think? Do you guys think he was abducted by aliens?
Do you think I don't know what do you think?
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Cannie, I have no fucking idea. I think I'm going
along the lines of the Jack the Ripper theory of
someone being just curious, naturally curious about what they could
do as far as like organ removal or yeah, yeah,
like some sort of fascination with that. But who knows.
(39:12):
Maybe it was aliens. Maybe maybe aliens.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
Maybe somehow all of these things out in nature came together.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
I actually saw somebody on the internet said, have you
guys looked at Lamprey's I don't, do you know what
lampre It's like an eel. Oh yeah, okay, but they
leave similar holes holes.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Were there?
Speaker 1 (39:37):
I looked, No, okay, they don't live down there. But
then I was like, maybe cookie cutter sharks, because cookie
cutter sharks do the same thing, but they're they feed
on skin, not on underlying tissue. So it looks like
a cookie cutter shark like mouth hole, but is there.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
It doesn't make like mammalian animal that would do the
same thing that I could, or other critters and sapallo.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
If you listen to the freaking investigators, these is rodents, dude,
crawling around in there and eating up soft tissues. Fucking crazy. No,
I just don't see that happening.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
If anything, maybe going for the maggots, which I didn't
see on his flush, which is really weird too, because
that's what I'm thinking too, Like that's the first things,
Like you get the fucking flies, maggots, there's gonna be
some sort of liquid like around any of the wounds,
but there's no blood.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
So I know it's a very weird case. Yeah, it's
very wild. So tell us what you think. Yeah, tell
us what you think. Don't forget to ask your professor,
what do you think?
Speaker 2 (40:43):
A doctor? Tomorrow, I'm running out of class to go
to work, Like, girl, what is this?
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Telp me what this is? But yeah, if you guys
have any other cases, case corrections, coffee chops, snackys, whatever
you want us to cover, hit us up on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
Scream dot and Dot Sugar, Dot podcast on Facebook, Scream
and Sugar, True Crime Coffee Hour on TikTok, stream Dot and.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Dot Sugar, or hit us up on the Gmail.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Scream and Sugar email at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Anyway we'll catch you on the next one. And remember, say,
spooky my baymail, how do we how do we want
(41:56):
to wrap this up? S
Welcome back, everybody to another episode of Scream and Sugar,
your true crime copy hour.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm your host, Sahara, I'm Candace, and.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Today we're going to be covering the South Paulo Guadapurunga
mutilation case.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Could be worse, yeah, could be great, could be that
could be the best one. So let's just nap it.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
I forgot the whole, the second part of the drug.
I'm done with it, dude, I can't do any more
too much.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
This is a podcast we talk about fucked up shit, okay,
and we eat treats on the side.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Eat treats on the sad, Sweet treats. Sweet treat, Sweet treat,
sweet treat. That's part of my problem, dude, is a
but clonking thanks today.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
I just feel it a little bit clonky.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
I'll be laying in bed at night at like eleven
thirty in a month.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
It sounds real, dude. I could go for a little
sweet tree right now, always me after I eat anything.
I'm like, I could follow that up.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
With something a little tasty.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Man.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Yeah, it's a fucking problem.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
I must slept for yogurt beach too. So anytime we
have like dinner at home, Like, well, we could go
out for ice cream, and Alex is like, we have
ice cream at home.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
But it's not the same. I got yogurt, beach.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
I can't put all my top ands on. I don't
have no cheesecake bites.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
I love the cheesecake bites.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Anything.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
It was a checake.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
It's a cheesecake, yogurt with that and then some strawberries, dude,
some peanut butter. Yeah. Now I'm gonna try to get
mencelex ever tonight.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
It's our last day of being bad, get good super.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yep, the last one. Way.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I tell William that all the time. I'm like, don't worry, babe,
it's the last day. And then like the next time
we'll actually I gotta really go for a little swait raight.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
No, that's we both do the same ship. Alex was
like doing yoga in the kitchen this morning when I
like walked in to make coffee and I was like,
good for you, smoked out.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
We're like, wow, this is so nice for you, so
cool that you could eat so much alfredo.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
And then and then just jump up and do yoga.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Oh she well, Hello, my fellow views, Hello, fellow slooths. Hello,
fellow slouths, welcome back. We are obviously in a goofy
silly mood. However, this is not a very goofy silly case.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Oh my god. No, she was just following me and
on some of the small deats, and I was like, Jesus,
but Jesus, Jesus.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
But Jesus, Yes, this case is crazy. I started out
researching a different case and then got distracted by this
one and have been.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Trapped inspired case because they do be hitten sometimes.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
They really do be hitting. No, no joke about it.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
I think there's a spu about my case.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Really, yeah, that's exciting because I've probably seen it. But
this guy, uh, this one, Yeah, blew my mind. It's
something I'm probably not going to be able to stop
thinking about. But first, allow us to plug our little
coffee shop dish moment. So this morning I hit up
(03:56):
a spot called west Side Cafe and Coffee Company.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Such a cute name it is, but they they are
like this little.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Hole in the wall looking diner thing next to the
Coals down off Seventh Street. It has like a coals
and a verizon. It's like almost like one of these
strip malls that they're called what coals.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Are you in South r now now? Oh shit, dude,
I don't know where apartment is.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Oh shit, you.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Should come by.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
I just don't have a lot of seating, so I
feel like I keep saying that, but it's like really
stressing me out.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
She was like, oh, what did Williams say we could
get a couple of recliners in there, and you just
loo You're like, I've been trying to get a fucking couch.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
That can be like I fit more people. I'm like,
we should get a sectional in here, it will make
more sense. And he's like, but then he will go
out in public and be like, oh yeah, we'll just
grab some recriining chairs and we're just down there and
I'm the perfect husband. It drives me fucking crazy. I'm like,
you make me look insane, you make me look in sane.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Oh no, I know that feeling all too well. But anyway, okay,
So it's everywhere with the Coles, West Side Coffee, Coat
Cafe and what.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
West Cafe and coffee company and coffee. Yeah, it's really affordable.
So yeah, really really affordable. I think for an asshot
it was like fifty cents.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Oh damn.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
I was like okay, prices like, I love that. But
they make their scones because as I was ordering, I
saw this little thing in the back of scones and
I was like, can I get one of those? And
she was like, yeah, it's a blueberry scone. They're made
fresh daily. I love them. They're fluffy, they're light. They're
clearly not like hard as rock scoons that you get
(05:45):
super tasty and then not too sweet. Yeah, not too sweet.
I really really enjoyed that. The coffee is interesting. The
coffee is different.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Do they roast their own coffee? I'm really not sure, okay,
because that might just be like they just have a
special blend that we're not used to you.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Yeah, it's possible. I do think they. They have like
one hundred Trani syrups in there, so it's possible that
I'm just also not used to like the Tarrani flavor.
I don't know fair, but the motion is really unique
that you usually get just your This is true. Mar
I am normally a very land girly, but today I
(06:24):
got a mocha and Kennie's got a.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Vanilla chat with an airshot that fifty cent a chat,
which is brilliant I know, I was like, what I
need that I have lighthouse by my house and it's
really very expensive but delicious. So derailed this so many times.
It's gonna.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
It's me that do you reula? So yeah, this case
is a freaking wild one, So strap on your bules
because it's gonna be It's gonna freak you out. It
freaks me out. So September twenty ninth, nineteen eighty eight,
this is the eighty We are in sal Palo, Brazil,
(07:02):
and you're not gonna believe what they found near the
Guaraparinga Gua Perga, the Guada Paranga reservoir. So this boy,
this kid was going I think it was like bird hunting.
So he had like a slingshot that he was using
to go bird hunting, and he's walking along this reservoir
(07:23):
and salo and he sees a group of vultures and
they're sitting over something and he's like cool, like maybe
I can hit one of them, and so he goes
to shoot them with his little his little sling shot
thing and he misses and they just kind of get
scared off. And when they take off, he noticed that
(07:44):
what they are crowding around is in fact not an animal,
but appears to be the nude mutilated body of a man.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Fuck. So I hate that kids that find that is
so traumatizing.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Forever they will, yeah, have that memory and this particular body.
I can only hope that he just like didn't look
too closely.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
He probably would haven't poked that ship the stick. Kids
be curious, kids do be curious. I wouldn't poke it
with but I would have been like, oh my god.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Well, and it's like you hear cases of adults all
the time being like I wasn't even sure what I
was looking at. Right to go and take a closer look, I.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Don't think your brain really wants to register.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
So unfortunately for that child, yeah, he did find this.
This is a very infamous case because of how unusual
and precise these mutilations appeared on the body. So authorities
show up, they kind of quarantine off the area, and
people in this town were kind of like, who could
it be? I wonder what person you know who got killed?
(08:48):
And it's spreading like wildfire. This information is spreading across
the town and people are kind of hoping to see
some information maybe on like the six o'clock news and
it never comes.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
They don't even report on it. Are they not allowed to?
Speaker 1 (09:04):
That's one of the theories is that this is like
a cover very hush hush that I know. Oh, I know,
it's so weird. So these injuries were so surgical in
appearance that to some they actually seemed beyond human capability
at the time mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Like average human or they're saying, like surgical precision or
not even well, we're going to get.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Into a girl because it's gonna break you the fuck out.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
The heaps.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
So yeah, I kind of mentioned that it really wasn't
reported on. It was just like there and gone.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Was the word of mouth only people.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
It kind of became like a myth almost in this area.
And then all of a sudden, like I want to say,
like the early two thousands ish, somebody leaked information like
the documents that were associated with the autopsy, not the
full autopsy, but just like documents associated with it. Okay,
And so I will have to put a caveat here.
A lot of what I'm going to tell you today
(10:01):
is based on what others have reported on because I
do not speak or read Portuguese, so I have no idea.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
How to my friend translate for us.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Hey, friend, Julia, Julia, let's go. I'll call you right
now because yeah, I want, I want to really dig
into this because I'm so freaking curious. So here's the
thing that.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Alex mind too, because he knows a little French and a.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Lot of Spanish.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
A little friends. Let's go, babe, let's go and FaceTime
you right now because the ship like, yeah, mind blowing. Okay,
and you have a picture.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Oh, I have all the pictures. In fact, let me
send them to you so that you can look at
them and follow along. There will be a link in
the show notes for the rest of you as well
if you want to follow along with this case. And
I will tell you that these photos are extremely graphic,
so keep that in your mind. You can't find them
on the internet yourself if you want. There are also
(11:03):
some renditions that are like like drawings, like the body,
so that's a little less graphic that'll be linked as well.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Were those drawings done by like investigators.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
No, it is somebody who did the drawings of the bodies,
like the photos of the bodies.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Bodies.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Oh sorry, spoiler, not spoilers. This body. The somebody did
drawings of the photos.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Of the body.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Okay, so the body, as I mentioned, was found on
the banks of this reservoir, and when the authorities got there,
they noticed, of course that the corpse was severely mutilated.
It was a little bit bloated due to decomposition occurring.
But one thing that really surprised them was that there
were no immediate signs of struggle or defensive wounds, no
(11:57):
notably like noticeable like restraint marks or anything like that.
And the scene also lacked blood, suggesting that the wounds
were probably inflicted somewhere else. Yeah, inflicted somewhere else. I
will say. There is a lot of speculation around this
case involving whether or not those wounds were inflicted post
(12:20):
mortem or anti mortem, and a lot of independent like
snooths out there have suggested that the wounds are post mortem,
and that's what ends up being reported on the death certificate,
which we will get into later. However, if you look
at these wounds, you will kind of see some interesting
(12:40):
things in regards to like coloration along where the wounds are,
which leads others, including myself to think that some of
them were inflicted anti mortems. It looks like to me, yeah,
so we'll kind of get into it, but first I
figure to chat about the state of the body. So
(13:04):
upon closer examination, these mutilations appeared to be highly specific
and metholodical. Oh my god, no, I can't say it methodical.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Is there er in there?
Speaker 1 (13:19):
I don't know. I was like, that can't be right,
Highly specific and methodical, with features including like the eyes
had been gouged out and removed, which you can say
potentially was from you know, the animals, It's pretty common
of them. The tongue and the lips were removed. The
(13:40):
ears were missing, so.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Like surgically removed.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Okay, so these were surgically removed. Not the eyes as
far as they can tell, but the rest of it
was surgically removed.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Yeah, flies like flies and maggots go straighter like eyes
and mouth, no soft tissues.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah. The wounds were very clean, very symmetrical. They didn't
have jagged edges on them, so surgically removed. But they
also didn't appear to be a lot of blood that
may have been associated with these wounds, which again can
lead to the fact that the king the joking speculating,
(14:23):
she was just speculating. Yeah, so the facial skin had
been stripped off surgically, exposing all the raw tissue that
was underneath on the lower half of the face, and
big portions of the lower jaw was missing.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
I want to see pictures.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
I know we're gonna get story. We're so close. Additionally,
there were these circular wounds that were found across the body,
so these were puncture wounds. They were about one point
five inches in diameter. They were found on the armpits,
on the forearms, the legs. One was also located right
on the navel, and these wounds, which there are photos of,
(15:01):
were symmetrically aligned on opposite sides of the body. Upon
further investigation, they found that the flesh underneath these wounds
was completely extracted, so there.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Was tissue sample.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Yeah, one of the freaking forearm muscles had been removed
and basically pulled out through this. They then started to
you know, go through the autopsy, and they found that
the liver, kidney's, stomach, and intestines and pancreas all missing,
but there were no notable signs that he had been
opened up except for that one one point five inch diameter.
(15:42):
The abdominal cavity had collapsed inward, and they started to
think that actually what had happened was that these organs
were extracted through the circular holes on the navel. Oh
my god, Muscle tissue for certain parts of the body
had been removed through the holes, and the organs had
(16:04):
been removed through the holes.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
That's impossible. How would you fit a whole loss livery
through a one point five diameter inch diameter.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Right, The rectum and the scrotum also surgically removed, and
a circular opening was left where the colon would normally be.
This I do believe was done anti mortem prior to
his death, and I'll show you why again. No blood
at the scene or around the body. Either he had
(16:33):
had his blood removed during this experimentation or whatever you
want to call it, or he had been killed elsewhere
and left.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Here, right, that's fine.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Most people tend to Most people think that he actually
had the blood in his body removed during this experiment
or during this while he was still alive. That's that's
what a lot of people think. I don't know if
it's just people sensationalizing this because they it's fucking freaky,
(17:06):
but it is just.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
What would lead them to believe that he was still alive,
because I mean, your heart pumps a lot of fucking
blood and the shit. So if you're still alive and
you're getting your blood drained, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
There's some there's some interesting theories.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
That his veins were completely empty too, and veins.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Yeah, you have no blood in his body. But they're
trying to say that it was a natural death. Was
natural causes was all the time? Yeah, of course obviously. Additionally,
the wounds appeared to be sealed or cauterized, fueling theories
that a high energy tool or advanced technology was using lasers.
Despite the mutilations, Like I said before, the victim's body
(17:47):
posture suggested no struggle, no attempt to escape. They also
did a talks screen. They found no paralytics, no inethesia.
How are they doing a tox screen with a no
tissue samples? I think you can take tissue samples. But
what's interesting is they also didn't have access to things
like the liver, so yeah, kind of freaky, kind of freaky. Additionally,
(18:13):
they found even though this man had been missing for
two days, so they do eventually figure out who he is.
You've been missing for two days. All of these wounds
appeared to have happened within twenty four hours. Yeah, because he.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Had been where are you go missing from?
Speaker 1 (18:30):
We'll kind of get in, Okay, we'll get okay. Now
that I've kind of explained to you these wounds, I'd
like you to take a peek.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
I'm gonna freak out here we go. Yeah, it looks
like there's blood pooling around where those puncture wounds are at.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Right, And do you see kind of how they have
that that black It almost looks like brew or something similar.
That is really unusual. Because I spent a lot of
time trying to figure out I.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Almost want to ask my professor tomorrow about.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
This fucking do it? Give us some updates because I.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Like, doctor still, why does he look like this? And
she's like, oh, blah blah blah blah. She'sn be like
what the fuck.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Are you shying? Like this is gonna suck for you,
but I need to know the answer.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
No, she doesn't give a fuck, Like all our slides
for that class are like, oh, sorry, supposed to give
your heads up. It's a dead body. I love her.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
I'm sorry. So yeah, I mean I looked at post
and anti mortem wounds, Like all day yesterday, I could
not find something that.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Looked like that similar to that, which.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Was so confusing because normally, if you have bruising, that
indicates that the blood is still flowing at the time
right that something occurs.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
It almost looks like necrotic around.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Yeah, it's very interesting. I did find through some deep
research that it is more likely for an open wound
to begin decaying, So that was like I was like,
maybe maybe it's just decay. But again, I really have
not seen I could not find ones that looked exactly
like that unless there was one.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Well, the rest of the soft tissue also doesn't like
look standard as far as like what standardy conflict would
look like right within twenty four hours, especially since he
doesn't have any of his organs, so like you don't
have the off gassing from that.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Right, and apparently he wasn't in rigor mortis, which he wasn't.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
In rigor mortis, that's what they say, Well, you start
to lose rigor mortis.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Well, I know, but after, isn't it after? Like it
sets in at twelve hours and it goes from twelve
to like thirty six or something.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
It did?
Speaker 1 (20:45):
It varies because it's not he was by the water,
so I tried to like keep that in mind, like,
and it's humid down there, it's very humid. I don't know, man,
it's very freaky.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
But yeah, the fact like his eyes, like around the
top of his head, it looks like it's also that
black discoloration, and then the I mean, I don't know
if it would have just been the vultures going for
the softest part of the tissue first, But as far
as like the jaw right a mandable being exposed already.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
The missing colon really breaks me out. Oh yeah, because
there's a lot of what looks like like blood associated
with that, which would indicate that maybe there was some
bleeding involved anyway, breaky stuff.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
I'm trying to read the fucking I was like, I
know a little.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Like maybe I can get through this encyclopedia. So there
are a lot of theories around what likely happened here.
I will say there is a very very famous like
video like YouTube video in this case where they talk
about how that the toxicology report obviously had no signs
(22:05):
of inesthesia or a paralyzing drug, leading people to believe
that the victim was fully conscious when his body was
undergoing these mutilations.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Which is good, My god, sorry, he was fully conscious.
He was fully conscious.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
That's what the That's what people take from. Oh, you're all.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
But he's not struggling, so it seems like was he
any doesn't there's no signs of like ligature marks or
anything like restraining him.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Yes, exactly. So I have some theories on that as well.
But I did just want to point out that some
sources say that the autopsy report suggested that the victim
had died due to cardio respiratory arrests, which had been
caused by extreme pain. And how they got to this
was that the victim's body showed signs of a cerebral edema.
(22:54):
So despite having an undamaged skull, that suggests that he
may have died because the because of the stress and
the pain that the body was coming on awful. I
don't know how true that is, Okay, I really don't.
First of all, it's really hard to say for sure
that a cerebral edema was caused by pain, because even
(23:21):
though they didn't show any damage to the skull, it's
possible like something else happened. Also, I don't know, I
don't know. It's hard for me. I can't read it,
so it's hard to say for sure. I don't know
if this is just exaggerated or yeah, no, you're good.
I was just reading this. This source says that although
(23:42):
the body was discovered while being covered by flocks of vultures,
there was no signs to suggest that they had fed
on the flesh. I don't think that's true either. Hard
to say for sure.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Why wouldn't vultures be feeding all the flesh, because that's
what they do. Els they're just checking it out, and
they're like, what the fuck, they're all damn. All the
juicy bits are inappropriate, the juice a bit. But I mean, seriously,
I just I can't imagine that's true. So they end
up finding out that the victim was a fifty three
(24:11):
year old man from the area. He suffered from epilepsy,
and he was a victim of alcoholism, so he was
often drinking and that caused sometimes fits. Additionally, he was
a huge fisher, so he was always like out at
the reservoir fishing. Okay, okay, so that would make sense
(24:33):
for his location.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Yes, Like I said, he was missing from multiple days
prior to the discovery of his body. But I will
also mention that they concluded that these wounds were less
than twenty four hours old, and so he had died
less than twenty four hours in the past, which is
kind of interesting. So where was he the first couple
of days.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
For the first twenty four hours.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Yeah, so the medical examiners had made a suggestion that
maybe he was taking a journal to treat epilepsy, and
that maybe he mixed alcohol with that medication, which could
have had a very strong and deadly reaction that basically
knocked him unconscious, and then he died from exposure to
the elements over time or had the coronary I don't
(25:20):
know about that. They ended up speculating that, get this,
the holes in the body were rats or small rodents
that had burrowed into his body eight the like tissues
that were inside and then crawled back out through the holes.
That is their speculation on the.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
More equidistant from each other. That's not how rats operate.
I agree. Also, they would go for the soft issue
in the face and the groin first, or if there
was like a hole already pre made. I agree.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
I think that is it.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Literally, they come later to like they come after maggots, small.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Heights, and I will say, like there is there are
some cases specifically around like water and like you were saying,
in high humidity, whereas the body begins to desiccate the
holes themselves, they may shrink, so it causes shrinkage, and
then that may make them appear more round, more surgical
(26:23):
than they actually are. For this case, though, it's hard
to say. It is hard to say. I mentioned to
Canvas earlier and I can't remember if I already mentioned
it to you guys, But at the time, I found
an article that talks about how from the year nineteen
eighty to about two thousand and two, a lot of
the death certificates and autopsies that were being performed in
(26:46):
South Pallo were considered like kind of poor and it
may have been due to lack of resources and training.
But because of that, it's kind of hard, I think,
to base everything on the autopsy autopsy report, because we
really just we don't know, we don't know, and this
(27:06):
is a weird, weird result that they came up with.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
One who knows who was doing the autopsy too. If
you're saying that there's a lack of medical examiners or
like anyone that has the right sort of education or
knowledge of that type of ship. Then they're just going
to put like easiest, the easiest thing, right, natural causes
because they were drunk and had epilepsy and fucking mixed alcohol. Yeah,
(27:33):
and then rats came and but the volt but where's
where are all of his organs? And right?
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Well, and despite this evidence suggesting that like something freaky
happened to this guy, the authorities just closed the case
almost immediately. And that's why they never never were good
out on the media.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah, they just like don't know what. Yeah, that sucks,
poor guy.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Oh yeah, So it was actually in nineteen eighty. It
was in nineteen ninety four that the case was actually
leaked back into the public view. That ended up making obviously.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
So five years later, six years I haven't asked, No,
it's okay, I had to do it to six years later.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
They suggest that the public was intentionally misled by the authorities.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Yeah, I mean, they don't want people sneaping around or
like having some sort of a frenzy because of a
suspicious death.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Exactly, exactly. Sorry, I'm reading those message on one thing
that so there's a lot of theories, a lot of
theories on what the fuck happened to this guy. One
of them is that epilepsy patients, though they don't technically
suffer any pain during a seizure, they it may cause
that cerebral edema. So they're saying, oh, there's a chance
(28:50):
that that's what happened.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
He could have fallen and yeah, I'm gonna move.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Out just to be like, where's the blood, Where is
the but well?
Speaker 2 (28:57):
And where's intestins? Where is the blood? Where are the eyes?
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Where the eyes? Where are the eyes? I mean hopefully
those things went into the culture. Yeah, so obviously there
(29:26):
were a lot of theories. One of the ones that
you know, people were thinking about early was organ traffickers.
So they said, well, maybe you know, his organs are missing,
maybe somebody took them to sell them on the black market. However,
there's a couple issues with that. Number One, if you're
slurping them out through a hole that's one and a
half inches wide, I don't think they're going to be
(29:46):
very usable.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
That's what I'm saying. Liver would not a fit through that.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
And number two is usually if you're an.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Organ trafficker or kidney probably not.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
No, No, definitely not, dude, And like it just doesn't
it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
That's hard. Was his heart there?
Speaker 1 (30:02):
I think the heart was there. Well, that's a problem, dude,
is because the one of the original ones said that
it was all all the organs were gone. M But
then the more I've looked into it, the less I
think that's true. That's the problem is. I think people
make it more sensationalized.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
M M.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
It doesn't need to be more sensal.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
He had no organs, he had no eyes.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
But the vultures weren't even feeding on him, Like, come on, guys.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
They're just kind of hanging out looking.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Liver, kidney's stomach and testines and pancreas were missing, while
heart was still there.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Heart should have been still there, yeah, and the lungs.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
Lungs were still there. Yeah, So it was kind of
this lower just.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
The little rabitinment area.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
Yeah, interesting, which would makes sense because of the that's
where the.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Hole ones was really around the nable.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
But pretty freaky either way. Additionally, people who are taking organs,
they're not presenting the bodies to be found right again,
and without any blood at the scene, you have to
assume that he was moved, right. I had to rule
that out pretty quickly.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
And then just like dumping it somewhere that do you
know people are going to come come find him.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
That's what makes me think it's it's less about like business,
do you know what I mean? A lot of a
lot of people mentioned and we've mentioned this already, but
they talk about how similar this is to the cattle
mutilations that are seen when it comes to like alien
abductions and UFO stories. People suggest that he was abducted,
(31:39):
held in a spaceship, experimented on, and then returned to
Earth after being subjected to all of these biological extractions
where they removed his organs, removed different parts of the
muscle using some sort of laser.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Yeah, forgot about the muscle part. Weird, it's so weird.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
So the precise nature of the wounds do resemble very
similar ones that you would see in cattle where they
have those little holes. A lot of the time, the
lower part of the face is either missing or the
skin is removed, I know, cheeks and chin. There's no
(32:19):
evidence of traditional surgical tools being used, especially like back
in the eighties. We can do some pretty cool stuff
now with like micro tools and things, but back then,
especially out maybe outdoors, maybe not. You know, it's kind
of hard to say. And again the body appeared to
be in sanguinated without any signs of blood in the area,
(32:41):
which is kind of freaky. There are there are some
arguments against us, one of them being that these injuries
can technically be forensically explained in a way if you
think about it, And that's my feelings.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
It's hard to say, like, how do you disprove aliens?
How do you prove aliens? It's hard to say, Like
an aliens man, a lot of people will die on
that hill. Yeah, that this man was kidnapp by aliens,
And I mean it is freaky. But personally for me,
I really feel like this seems most likely to be
a case where maybe somebody was doing some medical experimentation, Yeah,
(33:28):
where they were interested in seeing if their techniques might work.
That I think makes a lot of sense to me. There,
what is the thing called where it's the most simple
is usually the right one?
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Oh shit? What rule is that? The most simple explanation?
Okham's razor?
Speaker 1 (33:49):
Right, Okham's razor. To me, I just I feel like
it makes the most sense that somebody was just playing
around because when it comes to the post mortem decomposition
and animal scavenging, which is what is I guess the
most likely scenario in the minds of the investigators, I
feel like a lot of weird things had to align
(34:09):
perfectly for that to happen. He had to have been
like killed elsewhere or died elsewhere. He had to maybe
float down the river end up in a different location
without his blood, without his organs.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Yeah, I don't know. It was a reservoir, so that's
a man made like like, so I'm not thinking that
there's a river or anything. And if you didn't have
signs of water logging from being in the water, that's interesting.
But he could have been wiped down and cleaned. And
(34:42):
I mean, I don't know how you would get rid
of all the blood without like having some sort of
butchery skills and like hanging them and just draining the
blood out right.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Like, and how were they removed?
Speaker 2 (34:53):
And it's possible, and why did you want the rectum
and the screwed him.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
A lot of things you're removed, and it it does
appear to be surgical.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
So they're just do you think it was just somebody that.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Was curious, you know, who else had a lot of
curiosity about body parts? Was all Jack the.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Ripper Mm hmm, that's true.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
And his were quick, clean, very violent.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
I don't know. And then coulterization like the colonization is
very interesting too. Yeah, maybe it was a butcher, but
they just wanted to see what it would be like
to you.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Yeah, or maybe they made their own tools. Maybe they
were utilizing like some really early on LA liposcopy experiments, soldering,
like there's just so many It makes more sense to
me that this was somebody trying to see what they
could get away with.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Honestly, probably were there similar cases.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
And I have looked everywhere trying to find similar cases
to this, and I cannot find any interesting.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
They were just on vacation and then moved.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
On, maybe dude, or maybe they just thought that nobody
would end up finding this body.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
And it was naked. They didn't find his clothes, no clothes.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
So there are a couple different things that I was
able to find as far as paralytics that will not
be found.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
In an autosum.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
So one of them is called sascinocholine it's a paralytic
that is metabolized really quickly in the body, and it's
often undetectable in toxicology reports. It will paralyze the subject,
but they will not become conscious. So it is something
that you could use to prevent somebody from moving around
Jesus Christ. Another option that I was able to dig
(36:41):
up was potassium. So if you overdose somebody with potassium
called hypercalemia, high doses can paralyze muscles. They can actually
cause heart attacks yea, and eventually it will kill you.
And because potassium is found naturally in the body, it's
really hard to detect on a test, especially back in
(37:02):
the eighties. So yeah, this case, this mutilation case, has
been the subject of various theories regarding the cause of death,
including I forgot to mention this one. Some people think
that it's a ritualistic killing because of the very specific
things that were removed, like the rectum, the nuts wait,
(37:22):
I shouldn't say the testicles.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Sorry, the nuts, the butts, the.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Nuts, the butts, Jesus, I can't say it, Like, yeah,
they chopped off his uh testicles, the ears and the
eyes and like the tongue were all removed. That kind
of reeks of ritualistic killing.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
I would feel like the heart would have been taken.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
To honestly the same, but maybe not.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
I do feel like when it's ritualistic, isn't aren't usually
isn't there like some sort of message that's being sent
or like symbols.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
That maybe was he a straight man? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (38:02):
I think so. I was thinking, maybe, oh yeah, I
hate crime. Yeah I could, I could see that. But
I believe he was streaming because he had a family.
But then again, eighties, so Palo hard to say, hard
to say, but either way, it remains one of Brazil's
most bizarre cases. I think it is one of the
(38:23):
most bizarre cases we've ever covered. Yeah, there's so many
theories and honestly so little true evidence. Like we really
need an in depth copy of the autopsy report, and
we need to see who else the medical examiner reviewed
and how good they.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Were, what their qualifications were. Because Nashville causes me thinks not.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Me thinks not. But I don't know, what do you
guys think? Do you guys think he was abducted by aliens?
Do you think I don't know what do you think?
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Cannie, I have no fucking idea. I think I'm going
along the lines of the Jack the Ripper theory of
someone being just curious, naturally curious about what they could
do as far as like organ removal or yeah, yeah,
like some sort of fascination with that. But who knows.
(39:12):
Maybe it was aliens. Maybe maybe aliens.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
Maybe somehow all of these things out in nature came together.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
I actually saw somebody on the internet said, have you
guys looked at Lamprey's I don't, do you know what
lampre It's like an eel. Oh yeah, okay, but they
leave similar holes holes.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Were there?
Speaker 1 (39:37):
I looked, No, okay, they don't live down there. But
then I was like, maybe cookie cutter sharks, because cookie
cutter sharks do the same thing, but they're they feed
on skin, not on underlying tissue. So it looks like
a cookie cutter shark like mouth hole, but is there.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
It doesn't make like mammalian animal that would do the
same thing that I could, or other critters and sapallo.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
If you listen to the freaking investigators, these is rodents, dude,
crawling around in there and eating up soft tissues. Fucking crazy. No,
I just don't see that happening.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
If anything, maybe going for the maggots, which I didn't
see on his flush, which is really weird too, because
that's what I'm thinking too, Like that's the first things,
Like you get the fucking flies, maggots, there's gonna be
some sort of liquid like around any of the wounds,
but there's no blood.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
So I know it's a very weird case. Yeah, it's
very wild. So tell us what you think. Yeah, tell
us what you think. Don't forget to ask your professor,
what do you think?
Speaker 2 (40:43):
A doctor? Tomorrow, I'm running out of class to go
to work, Like, girl, what is this?
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Telp me what this is? But yeah, if you guys
have any other cases, case corrections, coffee chops, snackys, whatever
you want us to cover, hit us up on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
Scream dot and Dot Sugar, Dot podcast on Facebook, Scream
and Sugar, True Crime Coffee Hour on TikTok, stream Dot and.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Dot Sugar, or hit us up on the Gmail.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Scream and Sugar email at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Anyway we'll catch you on the next one. And remember, say,
spooky my baymail, how do we how do we want
(41:56):
to wrap this up? S
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