September 4, 2025 • 56 mins
Welcome back, Spooky Squad, to another episode of Scream and Sugar, your true crime coffee hour.
In part one of our deep dive into the Fred and Rose West case, we unravel the beginnings of one of Britain’s most disturbing true crime stories. From Fred’s early life and troubled upbringing to Rose’s entry into his world, we trace the paths that brought them together. This episode explores the dark dynamics of their relationship, the home at 25 Cromwell Street, and the early signs of their horrific crimes.
Stay tuned for the next episode, where we go through their horrific crimes and what ended it all.
Stay spooky, y'all!
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/scream-and-sugar-true-crime-coffee-hour--6015946/support.
This content is not appropriate for all viewers; viewer discretion is advised. PS. Let's just umbrella all our content with a blanket statement: allegedly, supposedly! Stay spooky, squad.
In part one of our deep dive into the Fred and Rose West case, we unravel the beginnings of one of Britain’s most disturbing true crime stories. From Fred’s early life and troubled upbringing to Rose’s entry into his world, we trace the paths that brought them together. This episode explores the dark dynamics of their relationship, the home at 25 Cromwell Street, and the early signs of their horrific crimes.
Stay tuned for the next episode, where we go through their horrific crimes and what ended it all.
Stay spooky, y'all!
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/scream-and-sugar-true-crime-coffee-hour--6015946/support.
This content is not appropriate for all viewers; viewer discretion is advised. PS. Let's just umbrella all our content with a blanket statement: allegedly, supposedly! Stay spooky, squad.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome back, everyone to another episode of Scream and Sugar,
the true crime podcast that dives into the darker side
of humanity while savoring a little sweetness on the side.
I'm Candace and I'm Sahara, and today we are going
to be talking about the UK's notorious serial killer couple
Rose and Fred West.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Today we're just going to talk a little bit about
the update for the Ryan Coberger case.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Oh yeah, let's get into it.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
So you guys may record all that in the early
hours of November thirteenth, twenty twenty two, four University of
Idaho students Madison Matti Mogan, Kaylee Gonzalveez, Xana Cernodle, and
Ethan Chapin were brutally stabbed to death in their off
campus home in Moscow, Idaho. The attacker escaped, leaving behind
shocking carnage of these youthful lives cut short as he
(01:20):
was walking out the out of the house. You guys
may recall that one of the other roommates opened her
door to see him walking past her and thought that
because this was kind of a sorority ish house, that
it was just some guy in the area and closed
the door. Luckily for her, he did not attack her.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Nearly seven weeks imagine I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Oh yeah, girl, No, I cannot imagine. Nearly seven weeks later,
on December thirtieth, authorities arrested Brian Coburger, a PhD criminology
student at Washington State University, at his home in Pennsylvania.
He was charged with four counts of first degree murder
in one count of felony burglary. You guys, if you
have a listen to that episode, please do. We deep
(02:02):
dived into this case big time, and you're gonna probably
want to listen to it because of what happens next.
Over the next two and a half years, the crime
drew intense media attention in a labyrinth legal process, delayed trials,
venue changes, suppression motions, and mounting public demand for answers.
The suppression motions were crazy. The gag order was crazy
(02:24):
because guess what what On June thirtieth, twenty twenty five, Yes,
b this June thirtieth, In a last minute turnaround just
before trial, Coberger struck a plea deal. He pled guilty
to all charges, waved his right to appeal, and spared
himself the death penalty.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
So he's saving his own. But but at the same time,
thankfully he pled guilty. So now the families don't have
to go through the trial, which can be extremely traumatic.
And oh, they've already lost their children, loved ones.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah, however I'm sure they they also are like, what
the heck right? What the heck right? On July second,
he formally entered his guilty plea, affirming he did kill
the victims unwillingly, unlawfully, deliberately, and with premeditation and malice.
Then on July twenty third, the court sentenced him to
four consecutive life sentences without pearl, plus an additional ten
(03:21):
years for the burglary, and finds totaling around two hundred
and seventy thousand dollars. Hmm, So he in jail. He
in jail for ever good, which he should be. However,
I don't. I don't feel closer. I hope his family.
I hope their families do. But he is not obligated
under any constitutional law or any judicial law to explain
(03:45):
why he did what he did, and he probably never will.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Probably not, but you know that there's going to be
investigative reporters that are going to try and to have
access to him and question why he did it, because
it was such a thoughtless and heinous crime, and so
hopefully eventually he'll speak out give us a little bit
of an understanding of the psyche and what was going
(04:09):
on during that night. Yeah, lest have been leading up
to it too, because he had obviously planned this, and
there are so many weird things that he had done before,
like the weird camera installation at that other woman's house
to where he had access and he could see her
through what was it his phone, He could watch her
(04:31):
through her security.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Camp as he set it up for her.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Yeah, it's so creepy.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yeah. Well, and he I guess he had over thirteen
formal complaints at Washington State University, where women reported offensive, misogynistic, xenophobic, ablest,
and homophobic remarks from him. Okay, non, including the stocking
so yai yikes. He also was very dismissive towards female professors,
which I feel like we all know those kind of guys.
Gross mm hmm Okay. Now incarcerated is kind of fun.
(05:01):
Coberger is reportedly facing psychological torment in prison, so despite
being alone in his cell, sounds through the events and
other forms of harassment have left him frequently complaining to
the guards, Wow, oh yeah, fucking suck it up, dang it,
freaking suck it up, dude, or.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Just uh, you know, and dur that I don't know
that's part.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Of your Yeah, well I wonder you.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Know how much of that is just his his him
being a baby, him being a baby, or do you
think it's actually happening.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
I do think it's probably happening. But I also think
he's a wiss.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Oh yeah, he's a huge wiss.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
I think he's a huge wiss and it's happening. And
so he's just like you're picking on.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
What is mere being mean to me because I'm an
awful person.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
So the motive obviously is still unanswered. It is a mystery.
Like Candace said, hopefully we will maybe get to the
end of that at some point. Since no sexual assault occurred,
no murder weapon was found, the interactions between him and
the victims weren't confirmed, we just don't know why happened.
We do think, based on you know, our last episode
(06:15):
and what we were able to uncover, that there was
a lot of overkill in the case of one of
the girls, and that potentially she had been the true
victim and that the others were unfortunately just the time
because the taco bell incident. But either way, that is
where we are with this. We just wanted to do
a quick brief update, tell you about it. Seriously, this
(06:40):
guy is the worst. I hope that he's picked on
forever and eventually somebody just gives him a little bunk
to the head. I don't die or nothing, just a
little little bank anyway, thanks for hanging.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Hey, Sahara Bear, Hi, Sahara, Hi, can't how are you? Oh?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Yeah, you're good. I'm good. I'm good.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
That's life. It's interesting, you know, it's life.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Baby.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
One day you're here, one day you're not the extra brain.
There's a big old puddle of mud, not the band.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
You know, schools starting and all that.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
So schools starting. There are so many new little student
babies on campus today. And it is yes.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
As it's been so nice not having anyone here.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
It really fine parking and not have to, you know,
stress park at the very end of the back of
the bfy over Bath Stadium. It's real nice.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
I have to eat elbow people out of your way.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
I was considering, can I tell you, I was considering
just parking out Circus Circus and walking all the way
from Circus Circus to hear because it's free parking over there.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
But it's so far, so far, especially in the heat.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Yeah, your girl is not going to do well.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
You have to get the one of them fancy scooters.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Yeah, the little electric scooters are just the bird app
But then I feel like I might as well as
pay paper. Those are expensive. Anyway, Parking here is a mess.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
It is a mess. It's really bad.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
So this is a pretty well known case, and I
would say a very famous case in England. As I
was doing my investigation, they actually brought up Dennis Nielsen
and how he was the most prolific serial killer up
until this point sort of thing. Gotcha, we did that episode,
So we did. Sarah did a deep dive into that
one and it was it was awful but great. You
(08:37):
did a great job. It was a novel case.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yes, got it.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
So I'm going to go ahead and just put a
big old trigger warning at the very tippy top of
this guy, because there is content regarding incest, kidnapping, rape,
and sexual assault as well as child sexual assault exploitation.
And yes, so if that is something that you're not
(09:03):
in the right headspace for today, go ahead and skip
this one and come back to the next one after
the next one. Yes, I'm pretty sure this is going
to be a two part at least.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Yeah, So we love you guys, but always choose your
mental health.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Okay, absolutely, absolutely, Yeah. I just figured i'd put that
at the top. That way, it's out of the way,
because it's just riddled throughout this entire entire T'm beginning
to end like it's tough. It's a tough one. I
took several breaks. And Eric can kind of attest to
this because I would be like, I'm not ready, I
have like half of it done. I would take like
(09:38):
a good I've been playing Tales with the Shire in
between researching this case to completely disassociate and get away
from our world as it is and how terrible things
can be not only imagined. So anyways, that being said,
let's get into this and we're going to start with
Fred and we'll just talk about his childhood, upbringing and
(10:03):
what some psychologists think might have caused him to turn
into the monster he was. Okay, all right, So Frederick
Walter Stephen West was born September twenty ninth, nineteen forty
one in Much Markele, which is a small village in Hertfordshire, England,
to father Walter and mother Daisy West. Fred was one
(10:26):
of eight children. Two of his siblings died shortly after childbirth,
and obviously at this time people were just popping out
kids to help with chores and other things.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
I don't know my mom how many. She only had
two of us, but she was always like, why do
you think I had kids?
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Carried the groceries Junior Troll was So they lived in
extreme poverty and his dad worked on a dairy farm
as just kind of like a farm hand. Okay, inside
the West household, there are some very unsettling stories that
have been told. There are allegations of incest as well
(11:08):
as physical abuse, and boundaries of morality were kind of
blurred from the beginning. Fred and interviews afterwards, like during
his interrogations, he's asked kind of like about his childhood,
and he says that his father, Walter encouraged incest with
Fred's sisters specifically, and there's also allegations that Fred's mom,
(11:34):
Daisy started sexually abusing him from the time he was twelve.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Wow, oh my gosh, what a terrible household, right.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Walter also allegedly encouraged bestiality with sheep on the farm,
and Fred says that that's kind of where he learned
about sexual morality or in this case, more immorality or
just I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
I don't even know if this is true.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Fred's brother says that this is not true, but I
would be denying it, do you. I don't think I
would be owning up to them rather being this monster anyway.
So that's a little little glimpse into it. By his teens,
Fred had suffered two severe head injuries. One was from
(12:24):
a motorcycle accident. I guess he had like begged and
big to get this motorcycle. His mom finally said yes.
On his way home one day, he has an accident,
falls off the bike, sustains a skull factor, a broken arm,
and a week long coma.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Oh wow.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
After coming to after this coma, friends and families say
that his personality definitely change.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
We see that time and time again. This head injury exactly.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Yeah, second head injury, which this one is kind of like,
I love this girl for doing this, but also so
I guess Fred was trying to get fresh with this
girl at Ledbury Youth Club, wouldn't leave her alone, was
groping at her, trying to put his hand up her skirt.
They were out on the fire escape and she pushed
him over the fire escape and he fell two stories,
(13:14):
hitting his head. Oh my god, it's again sustaining a
severe head injury.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
I mean, I don't condl in violence, but also you
do what you have to do to survive, ask Olivia Benson.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
So so once again, friends and family say that this
marked a change in his personality. He became even more
violent and had this preconcept like preconceived notion that women
are seen as objects for his pleasure.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Basically, gotcha, gross, What a gross little man?
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Huh, very gross, and he is hideous. He is heinous.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
If a little piggy pick t in dose, yeah, yeah, uk,
piggy picked in.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
So in June nineteen sixty one, Fred is twenty at
this time. His sister, who is thirteen at the time, Kitty,
goes to their mother Daisy and lets them know, lets
her know that Fred has been raping her for over
a year now and she has become pregnant with Fred's child.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Oh my god, oh my god, oh Jesus.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Okay, thirteen year old sister. He is arrested, and so
his mom, their mother went to the police immediately. Did
she not know about.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
All the incest in the family, I guess logically supposedly.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Okay, Like I said, some of this is Fred's account
and some of it is family account. So where that
line is blurred, it's hard to kind of tell because, yeah,
spoiler alert, he's dead, his parents are dead.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
This, Yeah, well, I do feel like when you have
sometimes like people like this, like these type of predators,
they often will exacerbate their past right to justify their
crappy behavior.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
But the blame on someone else other than themselves exactly.
So when he's arrested, the police are questioning him and
he openly admits to them that he's been molesting young
girls since his early teens, and he says, doesn't everybody
do it?
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Oh my gosh, girls. That does make me think that
maybe it is commonplace in his household. Maybe like the
fact that he didn't think he was doing anything wrong.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Right right, exactly. Very interesting. We're going to bring up Saharah.
So the trial for Kitty is held on November ninth,
nineteen sixty one, and despite being absolutely disgusted by Fred's actions,
Daisy was ready to testify in his defense at this trial.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Oh oh, mommy dearest, yikes.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Okay, right before her scheduled testimony, Kitty changes her mind
and decides to not testify and drops the case, against
which I'm assuming this came from influence from the family
not wanting to have it be like their names Street
right any more than it already had. She also, I believe,
(16:27):
ends up having an abortion.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Okay, okay, that checks. Yeah, that poor girl, dude, right,
and having your mother stand behind your brother, your abuser.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Pos brother, instead of you is absolutely horrifying. After the
trial is or the case is dropped, Fred's family, for
the most part, disowns him. Daisy kicks him out of
the house, and he goes to live with his aunt
Violet and his uncle. And then like a year later,
(17:01):
everyone kind of forgives them that he's able to come
back over to what I know, still not on great
terms with the rest of his family, but his parents
at least Walter and Daisy forgive him and let him
back into their home.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Oh my God, tell me, Katie's not there at least.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
I would assume she would, because she was at fourteen
at this point, but I know, awful, awful, awful, awful.
So a few months later, in September of nineteen sixty two,
Fred is then reacquainted with a young woman, Catherine Rena Costello,
who he had met at a dance in mart much markle.
(17:40):
She's from Glasgow and he and her dated for a
couple of months after this dance, but then she went
back to Glasgow, so okay, okay, they are reacquainted and
Fred finds out that she's pregnant with someone else's child,
but he tells Rena, you know what, I want to
(18:01):
be the father to this child, and they end up
getting married a couple months later. Okay, this timeline is
real quick. It's literally like three months after they're reacquainted,
and then she has baby Charmaine on March twenty second,
nineteen sixty three.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
So I can only assume that she didn't know that
he had impregnated his own sister. I would hope, so
you would, home, Charmaine's a girl, isn't she.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Charmaine is a girl, yes, a baby girl. Some accounts
said that the father was Asian and then there was
one account that specifically said it was a Pakistani cab driver.
I don't know if that's important, but Fred and Rena
tell people that Charmaine is adopted and that Rena had
been pregnant with Fred's child but had had a miscarriage.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
So they was it like to try to save face, Yes, Oka.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Basically got it to save face and because people are racist, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Especially especially then, I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Especially in the forties in Britain. Yeah. Sure. So anyway,
so they like said they got married November seventeenth, nineteen
sixty two. The only wedding guest and witness that shows
up is Fred's brother John Wow.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Yeah, and then night even his old Daisy busy Nomy.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
No Daisy no Walter Good. And then four months later,
on March twenty second, nineteen sixty three, Charmaine is born
and the family moves to Savoy Street in Glasgow, Okay,
So they relocate, they go back to be near Rena's family, Okay,
And they move into this apartment complex next the following year,
(19:44):
in July of nineteen sixty four, Rena and Fred have
another daughter, Anna Marie, and the nanny that they hire
at the time, Issa McNeil would later tell reporters that
Rena was a very considerate and caring mother doing her
best to raise these two girls, while Fred just kind
of was out on the lamb.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Gallivanting, gallivanting.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
He forces Rena into sex work to help make ends meet,
real stand up guy, and is also known to be
constantly cheating on her. Great. He also says that he
fathers another woman's child.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
How does he?
Speaker 1 (20:27):
I don't know. Allegedly he's charming or he's forceful or forceful. Yeah,
I could see that, gross little man, and we'll see.
He kind of plays a sympathy cardinal to you. So anyway,
Lisa tells reporters that Fred himself treats the girls in
(20:50):
arena very harshly when he doesn't get his way or
if they try to talk back to him. He often
resorts to physical violence, and also says that both Charmaine
and Anna Marie are forced to stay in this bottom
bunk that he fashioned bars around, so it's basically a
cage and they are forced to stay inside of that
(21:13):
bunk bed cage while he is home, and they're only
allowed out when he is not home.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Oh my god, what a terrible terrible man.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Already from the get go. Red flags everywhere, all up
and down.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Take your girls in front, day flag one big red flag. Yeah,
where's the red flag guy?
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Lisa McNeil goes on to introduce Fred Andrina to sixteen
year old and McFall, whose boyfriend had just tragically passed
away in a workplace accident. So she is breef she's grieving.
She ends up spending a lot of time over at
Fred and Irene Arena's sorry Fred and Rena's house, helping
(21:56):
with the with Anna, Marie and Charmaine. She gets very
close to the family and eventually starts just living with
them and conyannying with Isa. I'm assuming their nanny wall
Arena is working working right From outward appearances, they you know,
(22:16):
were kind of a mostly normal family.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
I guess, yeah, what people could see. What people could
see until they saw that freaking cage bed.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Yeah yeah, just raising two toddlers, and Fred was hadn't
been instilled. The one good thing that had been instilled
in him was the fact that he was a hard worker.
So at this time he is working as an ice
cream band driver, So he drives around to this little
vand playing the creepy music and anyway, just go throw
(22:48):
that out there. He would also do odd jobs and
this goes on for most of his working life, Like
he's just kind of, you know, can do various odds
and ends. And I don't know why he's an ice
cream I don't know how I got caught up in
that anyway, worst ice cream, worst ice cream man ever.
(23:09):
So Reena eventually finds out about Fred's and fidelity, so
she is like, okay, well, if you're going to do that,
then I'm going to start an affair with this man
John McLoughlin, who is a neighbor. John sees Fred beating
on Rena and the girls and takes it upon himself
(23:31):
to then beat up Fred, which I think is like
I like John, I like you. And what John would
later report is that he never really fought back when
he would get into a physical altercation with Fred. John
would be cowardly, like at first they got into an
(23:52):
altercation and he almost stabbed John, and then afterwards Fred
would just kind of take it lying down.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Essentially, Yeah, he only wanted to beat on people who
were he deemed weaker than himself. He couldn't fly back.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Exactly, and so on one of these abusive occasions that
John witnesses, Charmaine goes up to Fred asking if she
can have an ice cream, and she's probably like three
or four at this point, very baby baby, And John
says to a reporter and I quote, any ordinary man
(24:27):
would have given the child some ice cream, but instead
he smashed her around the head with his hand. He
was a violent and sadistic b word. He enjoyed beating
up women and kids. You wanted to say that Fred
couldn't tackle a man, but he wasn't so slow in
attacking women and kids. In other words, Fred was a
big old fat coward.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
I like John. John gets it.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
John gets it.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
John sees through his weasley, slimy little exterior.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
He is a big ol' weasel if you look at
pictures of him. No, no, big old woman beating young kid,
hitting jerk. Then, on November fourth, nineteen sixty five, while
Fred is out driving the ice cream van, a young
boy allegedly runs out after the van, trying to get
(25:16):
Fred's attention to stop so he can buy an ice cream.
Fred hits him with the van, kills him, and then
the police investigate it and say that they deem it
as they rule it as an accidental death. Really, Fred,
on the other hand, thinks that there's probably going to
(25:38):
be some sort of public backlash or outcry, and instead
of sticking around and find it out dealing with the
fallout from this quote unquote accident, he decides that they're
going to move back to Gloucester and he takes Charmaine
and Anna Marie with him that December. Wow, So that
(26:01):
following month they moved back to Gloucester. A few months later,
Rena joins them with Issa and Anne McFall, both of
whom followed along with the family, hoping that they would
find better work for themselves in Gloucester in England.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Wow. Wow, what a scumbag. So already already starting off strong.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Real strong. Back in Gloucester, Fred finds work pretty quickly
instantially as a lilivery truck driver for a local slaughterhouse. Okay,
the wording for this was so weird because it's English
or British. It's English British, it's fresh and it says
(26:47):
like some really weird words and it looked them up
and I was like, it's a slaughterhouse. He's driving a
truck for this local slaughterhouse, and he picked up, like
I said, other odd jobs to make ends meet. He
was the kind of guy that you could call him
at midnight tell him that there was a plumbing incident,
and he would show up, show up.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Okay, was he? Do you know if he was still
making Rena work at this point?
Speaker 1 (27:11):
He ends up putting her back to work.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Well, isn't he fun after.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
A few months of being back? I believe so. At
this point, which I'm sure that it was already bad,
but he his mood swings become more heightened and more violent,
and he becomes very possessive and domineering over the women
and the girls. So Rena, Issa Ann and Charmaine and
(27:35):
Anna Marine. Charmaine is specifically targeted for his physical violence,
and it said that at this point I believe she's five,
he starts sexually abusing her.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Oh God, horrible man. Why is Charmaine specifically.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Because she's not his biological daughter? But I don't think
that matters going forward.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Clearly didn't matter for him in the past either.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Well, that's his sister her. I don't know if there's
a cross allegedly, but he ends up crossing it later Charmaine.
I think he just started to resent the fact that
she wasn't his biological daughter.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
And he felt like he was taking care of her
or something, so he just took out all his anger.
A poor baby, dude, Oh my gosh, I.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Know, we're a poor baby. And then at this point
he also, like I said, tells Rena she needs to
get back to sex work to help provide for the family.
So at this point Rena and Lisa are like, we're
getting the f out of here, and they start to
devise a plan to get away from Fred with Anna, Marie,
(28:40):
and Charmaine as quickly as they can. While Fred is
out working one day, Rena decides to call John McLoughlin
and asks him if he can come and pick up
the girl. She tells him that they it's unbearable at
this point, that she doesn't want to put her children
through this physical and sexual abuse anymore, and will you
(29:02):
just please come pick us up? And John McLaughlin Agreece, Okay, John,
I know. I love John as far as I can tell.
John's a great guy, car so as I can tell.
So the day comes, they go to meet John at
a specific location that they had all planned and The
(29:24):
only person that doesn't want to go back to Glasgow
is Anne McFaul, the seventeen year old now nanny. Mm
hmm okay, soa, Rina, Anna Marie, and Charmaine, I'll go
to meet John and Lisa's boyfriend who's also named.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
John, John like, okay, a lot of John's out there,
lots of John's.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
They go to meet them to load up, and they're
loading up the car and lo and behold Fred and
Anne McFall.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
She snitched.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
She snitched, that little B word I know. So f
rips Charmaine and Anna Marie away from Rena and tells
her you're not taking my girls and if you ever
come back here, I will kill you. Oh no, I
(30:15):
ever see you again, I will kill you. So John
and Fred get into a physical altercation. Then the cops
are called and the six of them decide to leave
without Anna, Marie and Charmaine. So at this point, Rina
chooses to leave her kids with Fred.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
You'd think that the police would be able to do
something about the abuse.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
You would think, Wow, I think it was a lot
of him versus her. She's a sex worker, does she
have that credibility? She's also the wife and it's the forties.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Yeah, it's so hard.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
I guess it's not the forties and where it's the sixties.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
It's hard to like hole. It's hard for me to
blame her. I want to, I don't, but it is
hard for me, hard because I feel like she was
also a victim. She was, and she.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Tried, she tried, she tried to get away, and I
don't think this was the first time that she tried
to get away with the girls and Fred actually would
come and find them and bring them back. Despite being
(31:37):
threatened by Fred, Rina returns to Glasgow or sorry, she
returns from Glasgow, and she travels between Glasgow and Gloucester
to make sure that Anna, Marie and Charmagine are actually
being taken care of and that they're okay, which, knowing Fred,
I can only imagine leaving your kids with him and
(31:59):
trying to have some sort of self preservation, but also
knowing that your toddler daughters are.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
With their creepy with their creepy, abusive.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Abusive stepdad and dad. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
God.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
So at this point, Rena tries to maintain a friendship
with Anne McFall, but Anne has since started to have
a sexual relationship with Fred and is trying to persuade
Fred to divorce Rena and get full custody of the girls. No,
so Rena is like, maybe I don't like you that
(32:35):
much and I don't want to be that civil with
you anyway, and is constantly sending these letters back and
forth to her family and to Lisa, and she's letting
them know that Fred can provide her with a better
life and that she is actually pregnant with Fred's child.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Oh my god, how can she want that for her children?
Speaker 1 (32:57):
She, I guess, came from a very abusive family background
as well, and like I said, she had lost her
boyfriend in an accident, so I think part of it
might have been a little Stockholm syndrome. Me. Yeah, but
she did care for those girls, like she did take
care of Charmagne and Anna Marie.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Maybe she didn't know about the sexual assault.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
I don't know at this point. Like it's hard. I
feel like it would be so hard not to see
those signs. And is he just doing it while Anne's
not there?
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Right?
Speaker 1 (33:29):
And I don't think he's treating her well either, Like
I don't think like maybe on the surface, he's telling
her that, yeah, they're gonna get married and they're gonna
have kids together and just be this big, happy family.
But in July of nineteen sixty seven, at just eighteen
years old, so two years after meeting Fred and Rena
(33:50):
and the girls and eight months pregnant, Anne McFall vanishes
without a trace.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Oh my god, No, he's had no more kids.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
He said, not with you. He wanted to keep his
marriage with Na. Surprisingly, wow, and he took her out.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Do you think it was an accident? No, okay, cool,
can't wait to hear more.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
So I'm not going to get into her disappearance just yet.
We'll go into that more to depth when we get
into like our victims, sure, multiple victims. Whenever Fred would
be asked about Anne, he would just tell people, oh,
she's gone back to Glasgow to be near her family.
(34:38):
And no one ever followed up on this claim. So
I feel like her family never questioned it. They thought
that she was just in Gloucester and had kind of
just stopped contacting them. I'm assuming Fred might have written
letters back to them. I don't know, but yeah, nothing
was heard about her ever again until twenty years later.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Oh my gosh, do you think that Rena kind of suspected.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
I don't know. I assume that she just thought that
maybe her, like Anne and Fred, had just decided to
end things and maybe back. Yeah, because at this time
I remember they're not their friendship is done right, So
I don't think she really inquired into it too much.
After that, didn't give it much more thought than maybe
(35:25):
Fred was just a pos towards her and she had
had enough and went back to live with family.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
So a month later, Rena moved back to Gloucester from
Glasgow to live with Fred and the girls. So she
decides she wants to be closer.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
She leaves John.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
She leaves John, and for a while it seems like
their relationship is improving and Fred is treating her very well,
but as always, within a year, things turns hour again
Rena moves out back to Glasgow. I'm like, how do
you have the money to move back and forth?
Speaker 2 (36:05):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (36:05):
No? And there's also claims that during these periods where
Arena's gone and Fred's left without a nanny to care
for Charmaine and Anna Marie, he places them into the
care of Gloucestershire Social Services, so they're essentially in foster care,
while he doesn't have someone to take care of them.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
These poor kids, dude.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Yeah, And if only that would have just been like
a red flag. Like I know, for a lot of
social services or child services, they want the kids to
be with family if possible. But I feel like in
this instance, if they're constantly going in and.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
He's using them as freaking daycare, yeah, it's time.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Yeah, basically it's time to just you know, find those
girls a more permanent and stable situation and I'll.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Very least look into it, right, wow, right, Okay.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
And here is where we met Rose. Oh. So, in
early nineteen sixty nine, Fred who is now twenty seven,
meets fifteen year old Rosemary Rose let's for the first time.
All they're waiting at the same bus stop. So she's fifteen,
(37:19):
he's twenty seven years old, he's twenty seven years old,
married with children.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
At first, Rose thinks Fred is ugly and repulsive, which
he is, and I wish she would have just gone
with her gut feeling. But he keeps kind of pasturing
her and keeps flattering her, and eventually she's kind of like, Okay,
I like this attention, groamy, And she'd never really had
(37:52):
a boyfriend She tells Fred about this, but she also
would go on to say that she has been from
miscuous and she has slept around I believe for money. Ah,
I see as a fifteen year old. Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
So she probably didn't have the best home life either.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
No, and we will get into that. So he asks
her out a couple of times. Rose refuses him and
then lets him still walk her from the bus stop
to her house. Okay, and then he figures out where
she works, which is a little bakery, and one day
(38:33):
a woman comes in hands her a present and lets
her know a man outside gave this to me to
give to you, and lo and behold. A few minutes later,
Fred walks in and asks Rose out again, and she
finally accepts freaky. I know me of my ex husband.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
And we all remember when husband was a.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Real dark, dark spiral that I went through with that
one anyway, So so at the start of their relationship,
Rose meets the girl Charmaine and Anna Marie, and she
treats them like they're her own. She's very loving and
(39:21):
carrying and shows them a lot of affection. She also
convinces Fred to take them all out on these big
outings where they would go and pick flowers and have picnics,
and it sounds very sweet.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Quite the upgrade.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Quite the upgrade. A few weeks later, though, Fred convinces
Rose to quit her job at the bakery and just
become a full time nanny to the girls. So she's
still living with her parents at this point, but instead
of going to the bakery, Rered is having her take
care of Charmaine and Anna Marie, giving her enough money
to bring home to the family to Roses family on
(39:56):
Fridays to keep up the appearance that she's just working. Yeah,
not just over at his house. Well a few weeks later, nope.
A few months later, Rose introduces Fred to her parents,
Bill and coincidentally Daisy Let's ironic same mamma name. Rose's
(40:20):
parents are appalled at the age gap and Fred in general,
because he's gross, I think walt. Bill tracks Fred real
quick and is like he's a pathological liar, real piece
of work. I don't want you anywhere near my fifteen
year old daughter.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
You creep, you creep.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
And Bill threatens. Fred directly tells him, if you continue
seeing my daughter, I'm going to call social services, get
them involved, and have her put into a girl's home,
which happens, oh for a little while. She ends up
running away from the girl's home and goes on those
with Fred.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
It's like one of those stories where love yeah, and
it drives them even deeper into.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Exactly Oh gosh, that poor girl. I should have just
done reverse psychology and been like, Fred's a great guy,
we love him so much.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
What are you talking about it? It has been like killed
a man, Kill the man, get him out of the way.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
That's just the hos.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
I'm a very Anakin skywalker in my viewpoints.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
I guess cut down the younglings. It's fine, just get
rid of them.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Wow, that's terrible.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
I know, I know. So part of this case also,
there is alleged molestation by Bill towards Rose. So Daisy
is interviewed long after this happens, like after Fred and
(41:48):
Rose are arrested, and she vehemently denies up and down
that Bill would ever touch his daughter in this way. Okay,
she just doesn't believe it, but unfortunate guests Roses brothers
aren't too quick to denying the claim. But anyways, it's
(42:09):
said that Bill sexually abused Rose from a very early.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
Maybe that's why he looked at that guy and knew
and what he was about.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
Yeah, and I think maybe if this is the case
in Roses mind, she's already been treated like garbage right
for sex, and so it's not that out of the
ordinary for this almost thirty year old man twice her age,
probably her dad's age.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
Well, and like you said, she didn't have a boyfriend,
but she was promiscuous. Right.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
There's accounts that Rose would be working at the bakery
and she would have she would close it for a
little while and go off and sleep with like these
construction workers nearby.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
It's a pretty common theme in children who have been
sexual abuse, right, absolutely, So it does kind of.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Looking for that validation, and that's how you view love
coming from men.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
And unfortunately a lot of times mothers will just turn.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
The other way. Yeah, yeah, turn the other way, turn
the other cheek.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
Whatever it is, blind eye, close the blind eyes, that
would close the whatever it is.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
Absolutely, it's just like that deniability that your husband could
do this to your child, like absolutely, and you'll die
on that hill time and time again.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
I'll tell you what. My kid ever came to me
and said that shit.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
I would shoot him in the ding ding point blank,
point blank.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
Maybe seeing God very silly. Well, if that's your thing,
that's your thing, I guess go into judgment room judgment.
I don't know. I don't know much about it anyway,
I digress so.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Obviously, like I said, Rose defies her parents wishes she
keeps seeing him. There's also, like I said, rumors that
Rose is engaging in sex work at Fred's how it
says caravan And I'm wondering if caravan is just a
fancy word for trailer in Britain.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
I don't know what, but that sounds right. That sounds
right to me. That's a lot of British terminology.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
I'm Herrington whole lot Gloucestershire instantly. And for my sport
in Society class last semester I did a full report
on cheese rolling in Gloucestershire and it is a folk sport,
a sport that happens where they race a wheel of
cheese down this really steep incline. It's hilarious and usually
(44:52):
people sustaining like broken bones and concussions. But look that up,
because when I was reading this, I was like, oh, glass,
home of she's racing a home of raising and Fred
and Rose West not you know, rough sounds like a
beautiful place. The guys, if you're from there, just tell
us what else you have so we can get these
(45:14):
two things out of our friends. Could compile all of
these things, one really fun folk sport and two really
terrible people. Yes anyway, So yeah, So they the parents
find out that Rose is engaging in sex work at
Fred's trailer, and so they once again get social services involved.
(45:38):
She's placed into a home for trouble teenagers in August
of nineteen sixty nine, and then she returns home on
the weekends to visit her parents, but she almost always
takes that opportunity to go see Fred.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
Wow, he really just must have had control, so much
control over these girls.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
Well, I think it's one of those like love bombing.
Clearly at the beginning of the relationship, I could definitely
see this playing a role into her mindset and what
ends up happening. But so on her sixteenth birthday, about
(46:18):
a year later, Rose leaves this home for troubled teenagers
and goes back to live with her parents. Fred at
the same time, is serving a thirty day sentence for theft,
petty theft and unpaid fines. Once he gets released, Rose
moves out of her parents' house and goes to live
with Fred. At the same time Fred goes, or like
(46:42):
shortly after Fred goes and gets Charmaine and Anna Marie
from social Services to move back in with him. I'm
just like, just leave the guys, Yeah, just leave them there.
You obviously had them locked up in a cage for
their first part of their life while you were around.
So why even I think, I know, he uses us
as a bargaining tool right until I have control and pity,
(47:06):
I'm sure, and pity exactly. And this is kind of
what Rose recounts at the beginning of the relationship too,
Like he claimed that Rina had left him and abandoned
him with these two girls, and so Rose takes pity
on him.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
See yeah, He's like, look at me, I'm just a single.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
Poor old guy with these two young kids going to
just they really need a mother figure anyway, B word,
did I say it?
Speaker 2 (47:33):
No? I wanted to, I just did. I did not.
I'm good. I'm good girl.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
Sounds like such squares.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
Sorry that we're squares now.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
So they all move back into this trailer and one
more time, Bill tries to prevent his daughter from going
to see Fred. She is examined by a police surgeon
in February nineteen seventy and is confirmed to be pregnant
with Fred's child.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
Oh my gosh, and what happened last time?
Speaker 1 (48:07):
Once again, in response to this news, she's put into
the troubled teen home, but she gets out the following
month and they are under the understanding that she's going
to terminate this pregnancy and go back and live with
her family. Instead, she goes and lives with Fred and
(48:30):
at this point her dad's just like, don't ever come
back to our house.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
We're done.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Wow. Three months later, they relocate to a two story
house in Midland Road, Gloucester. On the seventeenth of October,
Rose gives birth to their first child, Heather, and there
is some speculation that Heather might have been sired by
(48:56):
Rose's father and not Fred. Oh pattle, Like, there's no
they didn't do no proof for nothing, yeah, perturning test
right anything. So once again, Fred is arrested two months
later for stealing car tires. Oh okay, and he also
(49:19):
stole like the tax number off of a car or
something like that. I think it might be like their
registration over there. Oh, okay, so he steals tags. He
is kept in prison for eight months, okay, as he's
serving his sentence. Rose is looking after these three girls.
(49:42):
She's turned seventeen at this point, and now she's a
single mom basically while Fred's in prison or jail, of
these three young girls. And so.
Speaker 2 (49:54):
Is she working?
Speaker 1 (49:57):
I don't believe so. I think she's just taking care
of the girls and somehow managing to survive, managed, probably
living off of not social security but whatever it is,
like welfare, welfare.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
There you go, English welfare.
Speaker 1 (50:12):
If you know what that is, let us know. And
according to Anna Marie, she writes and details this whole
book about her childhood and abuse in life with these monsters.
Her and Charmaine are frequently criticized, beaten, and are basically
(50:34):
tortured while Fred is in prison by Rose, Rose begins
to resent them because she's the primary caregiver. Now she's
only seventeen and dealing with three young kids. I can't
even imagine that. Being said, Charmaine was very defiant and
(50:56):
I guess would stand up and yell back at Rose
quite frequently and would tell Anna Marie, Mom's gonna come
save us, Mom's going to come back and save us
from us. And fortunately, while Fred is still in jail,
(51:18):
Rose kills Charmaine and places her body in the floorboards.
Speaker 2 (51:26):
What like on purpose?
Speaker 1 (51:29):
Yes, she writes to Fred and essentially is like, I
couldn't do it anymore. She's just a defiant child and
I'd had enough basically, and.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
Oh my god, yeah, did nobody notice that there was
a child missing from the time.
Speaker 1 (51:52):
When asked about Charmaine, Rose tells them she went back
to live with her mother Rinaway.
Speaker 2 (52:00):
Rena will believe that, No, how did she kill this baby?
Speaker 1 (52:07):
I was just curious. I will get into the details,
I think later, just because this case does kind of unravel, and.
Speaker 2 (52:14):
So at this point she's just gone.
Speaker 1 (52:16):
So what is believed to have happened is that right
before Fred is released from prison in June nineteen seventy one,
she had taken the girls to go visit Fred. And
right after this, it looks like Charmaine was murdered by Rose,
(52:37):
and she would just tell everyone that she's gone to
live with her mother and bloody good riddance. So she
had no remorse and she let Fred, like Fred knows
that Rose killed her, and they just covered it up,
Like I believe she kept her body somewhere like in
(52:57):
the cellar at this point because they're living in a flat.
But I believe when Fred gets out of prison he
ends up dismembering Charmaine's little body and burying it in
the walls of the house.
Speaker 2 (53:09):
That horrific.
Speaker 1 (53:12):
And with that, we're gonna end this first part of
Fred and Rose West and we will pick it up
next week. Thank you all for bearing with that. I
know this case is a really difficult one to kind
of take end, just because there are so many levels
(53:32):
of depravity that is just awful, absolutely awful that it
got to this point, even like why were they allowed
to have kids? How would they why would you want
to keep those girls? If you're just it's because of control,
it's because he saw them as possessions.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
The fact that they were in the system multiple times
and there was no and there was nobody noticed that
there was maybe something going on as bonkers to me.
Speaker 1 (53:58):
I agreed, criminal agreed, absolutely well.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
We actually have quite a few UK listeners.
Speaker 1 (54:04):
So oh great, So you guys probably know all about
this case.
Speaker 2 (54:09):
Feel free to like send us info if you have it,
send us like if we got any terminologies.
Speaker 1 (54:15):
Gloucester here, Gloucestershire. I know it's Gloucester, it's not Gloucester,
luster Shire, Leouster shere.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
Yeah, let us know. Let's know what we got right,
what we got wrong.
Speaker 1 (54:26):
I definitely took out a lot of the different location names,
like the street names or whatever, because they have names
for all their houses too, or like whatever. I didn't
even want to try.
Speaker 2 (54:37):
So, yeah, it's like me and my Hagleywood all.
Speaker 1 (54:42):
The best, just going to salute y'all. And English is
a weird language anyway.
Speaker 2 (54:46):
Ours is a very terrible version of it.
Speaker 1 (54:49):
So it is the dumbed down version.
Speaker 2 (54:52):
We call it fall because Lee's fall down.
Speaker 1 (54:57):
It's so true though, I know, looking forward to fall actually.
On that note, yeah, but if you guys have any
case corrections, if you know of any updates that have
happened with cases that are still ongoing that we've covered
and you want us to cover those, hit us up
on the old Instagram's.
Speaker 2 (55:16):
Scream Dot and Dot Sugar Dot podcast on the Book
of Faces, Scream and Sugar, True Crime, Coffee Hour, TikTok,
Scream Dot and Dot, Sugar, Gmail, Scream and Sugar, Reno
at gmail dot com or now you can leave us
a voicemail that's seven seven five three eight six two
one eight five Until next time, Stay spooky yall at
(55:38):
yes Bye.
Speaker 1 (56:06):
Understand nothing being to be
Welcome back, everyone to another episode of Scream and Sugar,
the true crime podcast that dives into the darker side
of humanity while savoring a little sweetness on the side.
I'm Candace and I'm Sahara, and today we are going
to be talking about the UK's notorious serial killer couple
Rose and Fred West.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Today we're just going to talk a little bit about
the update for the Ryan Coberger case.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Oh yeah, let's get into it.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
So you guys may record all that in the early
hours of November thirteenth, twenty twenty two, four University of
Idaho students Madison Matti Mogan, Kaylee Gonzalveez, Xana Cernodle, and
Ethan Chapin were brutally stabbed to death in their off
campus home in Moscow, Idaho. The attacker escaped, leaving behind
shocking carnage of these youthful lives cut short as he
(01:20):
was walking out the out of the house. You guys
may recall that one of the other roommates opened her
door to see him walking past her and thought that
because this was kind of a sorority ish house, that
it was just some guy in the area and closed
the door. Luckily for her, he did not attack her.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Nearly seven weeks imagine I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Oh yeah, girl, No, I cannot imagine. Nearly seven weeks later,
on December thirtieth, authorities arrested Brian Coburger, a PhD criminology
student at Washington State University, at his home in Pennsylvania.
He was charged with four counts of first degree murder
in one count of felony burglary. You guys, if you
have a listen to that episode, please do. We deep
(02:02):
dived into this case big time, and you're gonna probably
want to listen to it because of what happens next.
Over the next two and a half years, the crime
drew intense media attention in a labyrinth legal process, delayed trials,
venue changes, suppression motions, and mounting public demand for answers.
The suppression motions were crazy. The gag order was crazy
(02:24):
because guess what what On June thirtieth, twenty twenty five, Yes,
b this June thirtieth, In a last minute turnaround just
before trial, Coberger struck a plea deal. He pled guilty
to all charges, waved his right to appeal, and spared
himself the death penalty.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
So he's saving his own. But but at the same time,
thankfully he pled guilty. So now the families don't have
to go through the trial, which can be extremely traumatic.
And oh, they've already lost their children, loved ones.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah, however I'm sure they they also are like, what
the heck right? What the heck right? On July second,
he formally entered his guilty plea, affirming he did kill
the victims unwillingly, unlawfully, deliberately, and with premeditation and malice.
Then on July twenty third, the court sentenced him to
four consecutive life sentences without pearl, plus an additional ten
(03:21):
years for the burglary, and finds totaling around two hundred
and seventy thousand dollars. Hmm, So he in jail. He
in jail for ever good, which he should be. However,
I don't. I don't feel closer. I hope his family.
I hope their families do. But he is not obligated
under any constitutional law or any judicial law to explain
(03:45):
why he did what he did, and he probably never will.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Probably not, but you know that there's going to be
investigative reporters that are going to try and to have
access to him and question why he did it, because
it was such a thoughtless and heinous crime, and so
hopefully eventually he'll speak out give us a little bit
of an understanding of the psyche and what was going
(04:09):
on during that night. Yeah, lest have been leading up
to it too, because he had obviously planned this, and
there are so many weird things that he had done before,
like the weird camera installation at that other woman's house
to where he had access and he could see her
through what was it his phone, He could watch her
(04:31):
through her security.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Camp as he set it up for her.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Yeah, it's so creepy.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yeah. Well, and he I guess he had over thirteen
formal complaints at Washington State University, where women reported offensive, misogynistic, xenophobic, ablest,
and homophobic remarks from him. Okay, non, including the stocking
so yai yikes. He also was very dismissive towards female professors,
which I feel like we all know those kind of guys.
Gross mm hmm Okay. Now incarcerated is kind of fun.
(05:01):
Coberger is reportedly facing psychological torment in prison, so despite
being alone in his cell, sounds through the events and
other forms of harassment have left him frequently complaining to
the guards, Wow, oh yeah, fucking suck it up, dang it,
freaking suck it up, dude, or.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Just uh, you know, and dur that I don't know
that's part.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Of your Yeah, well I wonder you.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Know how much of that is just his his him
being a baby, him being a baby, or do you
think it's actually happening.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
I do think it's probably happening. But I also think
he's a wiss.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Oh yeah, he's a huge wiss.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
I think he's a huge wiss and it's happening. And
so he's just like you're picking on.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
What is mere being mean to me because I'm an
awful person.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
So the motive obviously is still unanswered. It is a mystery.
Like Candace said, hopefully we will maybe get to the
end of that at some point. Since no sexual assault occurred,
no murder weapon was found, the interactions between him and
the victims weren't confirmed, we just don't know why happened.
We do think, based on you know, our last episode
(06:15):
and what we were able to uncover, that there was
a lot of overkill in the case of one of
the girls, and that potentially she had been the true
victim and that the others were unfortunately just the time
because the taco bell incident. But either way, that is
where we are with this. We just wanted to do
a quick brief update, tell you about it. Seriously, this
(06:40):
guy is the worst. I hope that he's picked on
forever and eventually somebody just gives him a little bunk
to the head. I don't die or nothing, just a
little little bank anyway, thanks for hanging.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Hey, Sahara Bear, Hi, Sahara, Hi, can't how are you? Oh?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Yeah, you're good. I'm good. I'm good.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
That's life. It's interesting, you know, it's life.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Baby.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
One day you're here, one day you're not the extra brain.
There's a big old puddle of mud, not the band.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
You know, schools starting and all that.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
So schools starting. There are so many new little student
babies on campus today. And it is yes.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
As it's been so nice not having anyone here.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
It really fine parking and not have to, you know,
stress park at the very end of the back of
the bfy over Bath Stadium. It's real nice.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
I have to eat elbow people out of your way.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
I was considering, can I tell you, I was considering
just parking out Circus Circus and walking all the way
from Circus Circus to hear because it's free parking over there.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
But it's so far, so far, especially in the heat.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Yeah, your girl is not going to do well.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
You have to get the one of them fancy scooters.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Yeah, the little electric scooters are just the bird app
But then I feel like I might as well as
pay paper. Those are expensive. Anyway, Parking here is a mess.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
It is a mess. It's really bad.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
So this is a pretty well known case, and I
would say a very famous case in England. As I
was doing my investigation, they actually brought up Dennis Nielsen
and how he was the most prolific serial killer up
until this point sort of thing. Gotcha, we did that episode,
So we did. Sarah did a deep dive into that
one and it was it was awful but great. You
(08:37):
did a great job. It was a novel case.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yes, got it.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
So I'm going to go ahead and just put a
big old trigger warning at the very tippy top of
this guy, because there is content regarding incest, kidnapping, rape,
and sexual assault as well as child sexual assault exploitation.
And yes, so if that is something that you're not
(09:03):
in the right headspace for today, go ahead and skip
this one and come back to the next one after
the next one. Yes, I'm pretty sure this is going
to be a two part at least.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Yeah, So we love you guys, but always choose your
mental health.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Okay, absolutely, absolutely, Yeah. I just figured i'd put that
at the top. That way, it's out of the way,
because it's just riddled throughout this entire entire T'm beginning
to end like it's tough. It's a tough one. I
took several breaks. And Eric can kind of attest to
this because I would be like, I'm not ready, I
have like half of it done. I would take like
(09:38):
a good I've been playing Tales with the Shire in
between researching this case to completely disassociate and get away
from our world as it is and how terrible things
can be not only imagined. So anyways, that being said,
let's get into this and we're going to start with
Fred and we'll just talk about his childhood, upbringing and
(10:03):
what some psychologists think might have caused him to turn
into the monster he was. Okay, all right, So Frederick
Walter Stephen West was born September twenty ninth, nineteen forty
one in Much Markele, which is a small village in Hertfordshire, England,
to father Walter and mother Daisy West. Fred was one
(10:26):
of eight children. Two of his siblings died shortly after childbirth,
and obviously at this time people were just popping out
kids to help with chores and other things.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
I don't know my mom how many. She only had
two of us, but she was always like, why do
you think I had kids?
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Carried the groceries Junior Troll was So they lived in
extreme poverty and his dad worked on a dairy farm
as just kind of like a farm hand. Okay, inside
the West household, there are some very unsettling stories that
have been told. There are allegations of incest as well
(11:08):
as physical abuse, and boundaries of morality were kind of
blurred from the beginning. Fred and interviews afterwards, like during
his interrogations, he's asked kind of like about his childhood,
and he says that his father, Walter encouraged incest with
Fred's sisters specifically, and there's also allegations that Fred's mom,
(11:34):
Daisy started sexually abusing him from the time he was twelve.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Wow, oh my gosh, what a terrible household, right.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Walter also allegedly encouraged bestiality with sheep on the farm,
and Fred says that that's kind of where he learned
about sexual morality or in this case, more immorality or
just I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
I don't even know if this is true.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Fred's brother says that this is not true, but I
would be denying it, do you. I don't think I
would be owning up to them rather being this monster anyway.
So that's a little little glimpse into it. By his teens,
Fred had suffered two severe head injuries. One was from
(12:24):
a motorcycle accident. I guess he had like begged and
big to get this motorcycle. His mom finally said yes.
On his way home one day, he has an accident,
falls off the bike, sustains a skull factor, a broken arm,
and a week long coma.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Oh wow.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
After coming to after this coma, friends and families say
that his personality definitely change.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
We see that time and time again. This head injury exactly.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Yeah, second head injury, which this one is kind of like,
I love this girl for doing this, but also so
I guess Fred was trying to get fresh with this
girl at Ledbury Youth Club, wouldn't leave her alone, was
groping at her, trying to put his hand up her skirt.
They were out on the fire escape and she pushed
him over the fire escape and he fell two stories,
(13:14):
hitting his head. Oh my god, it's again sustaining a
severe head injury.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
I mean, I don't condl in violence, but also you
do what you have to do to survive, ask Olivia Benson.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
So so once again, friends and family say that this
marked a change in his personality. He became even more
violent and had this preconcept like preconceived notion that women
are seen as objects for his pleasure.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Basically, gotcha, gross, What a gross little man?
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Huh, very gross, and he is hideous. He is heinous.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
If a little piggy pick t in dose, yeah, yeah, uk,
piggy picked in.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
So in June nineteen sixty one, Fred is twenty at
this time. His sister, who is thirteen at the time, Kitty,
goes to their mother Daisy and lets them know, lets
her know that Fred has been raping her for over
a year now and she has become pregnant with Fred's child.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Oh my god, oh my god, oh Jesus.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Okay, thirteen year old sister. He is arrested, and so
his mom, their mother went to the police immediately. Did
she not know about.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
All the incest in the family, I guess logically supposedly.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Okay, Like I said, some of this is Fred's account
and some of it is family account. So where that
line is blurred, it's hard to kind of tell because, yeah,
spoiler alert, he's dead, his parents are dead.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
This, Yeah, well, I do feel like when you have
sometimes like people like this, like these type of predators,
they often will exacerbate their past right to justify their
crappy behavior.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
But the blame on someone else other than themselves exactly.
So when he's arrested, the police are questioning him and
he openly admits to them that he's been molesting young
girls since his early teens, and he says, doesn't everybody
do it?
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Oh my gosh, girls. That does make me think that
maybe it is commonplace in his household. Maybe like the
fact that he didn't think he was doing anything wrong.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Right right, exactly. Very interesting. We're going to bring up Saharah.
So the trial for Kitty is held on November ninth,
nineteen sixty one, and despite being absolutely disgusted by Fred's actions,
Daisy was ready to testify in his defense at this trial.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Oh oh, mommy dearest, yikes.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Okay, right before her scheduled testimony, Kitty changes her mind
and decides to not testify and drops the case, against
which I'm assuming this came from influence from the family
not wanting to have it be like their names Street
right any more than it already had. She also, I believe,
(16:27):
ends up having an abortion.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Okay, okay, that checks. Yeah, that poor girl, dude, right,
and having your mother stand behind your brother, your abuser.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Pos brother, instead of you is absolutely horrifying. After the
trial is or the case is dropped, Fred's family, for
the most part, disowns him. Daisy kicks him out of
the house, and he goes to live with his aunt
Violet and his uncle. And then like a year later,
(17:01):
everyone kind of forgives them that he's able to come
back over to what I know, still not on great
terms with the rest of his family, but his parents
at least Walter and Daisy forgive him and let him
back into their home.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Oh my God, tell me, Katie's not there at least.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
I would assume she would, because she was at fourteen
at this point, but I know, awful, awful, awful, awful.
So a few months later, in September of nineteen sixty two,
Fred is then reacquainted with a young woman, Catherine Rena Costello,
who he had met at a dance in mart much markle.
(17:40):
She's from Glasgow and he and her dated for a
couple of months after this dance, but then she went
back to Glasgow, so okay, okay, they are reacquainted and
Fred finds out that she's pregnant with someone else's child,
but he tells Rena, you know what, I want to
(18:01):
be the father to this child, and they end up
getting married a couple months later. Okay, this timeline is
real quick. It's literally like three months after they're reacquainted,
and then she has baby Charmaine on March twenty second,
nineteen sixty three.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
So I can only assume that she didn't know that
he had impregnated his own sister. I would hope, so
you would, home, Charmaine's a girl, isn't she.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Charmaine is a girl, yes, a baby girl. Some accounts
said that the father was Asian and then there was
one account that specifically said it was a Pakistani cab driver.
I don't know if that's important, but Fred and Rena
tell people that Charmaine is adopted and that Rena had
been pregnant with Fred's child but had had a miscarriage.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
So they was it like to try to save face, Yes, Oka.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Basically got it to save face and because people are racist, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Especially especially then, I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Especially in the forties in Britain. Yeah. Sure. So anyway,
so they like said they got married November seventeenth, nineteen
sixty two. The only wedding guest and witness that shows
up is Fred's brother John Wow.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Yeah, and then night even his old Daisy busy Nomy.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
No Daisy no Walter Good. And then four months later,
on March twenty second, nineteen sixty three, Charmaine is born
and the family moves to Savoy Street in Glasgow, Okay,
So they relocate, they go back to be near Rena's family, Okay,
And they move into this apartment complex next the following year,
(19:44):
in July of nineteen sixty four, Rena and Fred have
another daughter, Anna Marie, and the nanny that they hire
at the time, Issa McNeil would later tell reporters that
Rena was a very considerate and caring mother doing her
best to raise these two girls, while Fred just kind
of was out on the lamb.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Gallivanting, gallivanting.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
He forces Rena into sex work to help make ends meet,
real stand up guy, and is also known to be
constantly cheating on her. Great. He also says that he
fathers another woman's child.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
How does he?
Speaker 1 (20:27):
I don't know. Allegedly he's charming or he's forceful or forceful. Yeah,
I could see that, gross little man, and we'll see.
He kind of plays a sympathy cardinal to you. So anyway,
Lisa tells reporters that Fred himself treats the girls in
(20:50):
arena very harshly when he doesn't get his way or
if they try to talk back to him. He often
resorts to physical violence, and also says that both Charmaine
and Anna Marie are forced to stay in this bottom
bunk that he fashioned bars around, so it's basically a
cage and they are forced to stay inside of that
(21:13):
bunk bed cage while he is home, and they're only
allowed out when he is not home.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Oh my god, what a terrible terrible man.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Already from the get go. Red flags everywhere, all up
and down.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Take your girls in front, day flag one big red flag. Yeah,
where's the red flag guy?
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Lisa McNeil goes on to introduce Fred Andrina to sixteen
year old and McFall, whose boyfriend had just tragically passed
away in a workplace accident. So she is breef she's grieving.
She ends up spending a lot of time over at
Fred and Irene Arena's sorry Fred and Rena's house, helping
(21:56):
with the with Anna, Marie and Charmaine. She gets very
close to the family and eventually starts just living with
them and conyannying with Isa. I'm assuming their nanny wall
Arena is working working right From outward appearances, they you know,
(22:16):
were kind of a mostly normal family.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
I guess, yeah, what people could see. What people could
see until they saw that freaking cage bed.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Yeah yeah, just raising two toddlers, and Fred was hadn't
been instilled. The one good thing that had been instilled
in him was the fact that he was a hard worker.
So at this time he is working as an ice
cream band driver, So he drives around to this little
vand playing the creepy music and anyway, just go throw
(22:48):
that out there. He would also do odd jobs and
this goes on for most of his working life, Like
he's just kind of, you know, can do various odds
and ends. And I don't know why he's an ice
cream I don't know how I got caught up in
that anyway, worst ice cream, worst ice cream man ever.
(23:09):
So Reena eventually finds out about Fred's and fidelity, so
she is like, okay, well, if you're going to do that,
then I'm going to start an affair with this man
John McLoughlin, who is a neighbor. John sees Fred beating
on Rena and the girls and takes it upon himself
(23:31):
to then beat up Fred, which I think is like
I like John, I like you. And what John would
later report is that he never really fought back when
he would get into a physical altercation with Fred. John
would be cowardly, like at first they got into an
(23:52):
altercation and he almost stabbed John, and then afterwards Fred
would just kind of take it lying down.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Essentially, Yeah, he only wanted to beat on people who
were he deemed weaker than himself. He couldn't fly back.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Exactly, and so on one of these abusive occasions that
John witnesses, Charmaine goes up to Fred asking if she
can have an ice cream, and she's probably like three
or four at this point, very baby baby, And John
says to a reporter and I quote, any ordinary man
(24:27):
would have given the child some ice cream, but instead
he smashed her around the head with his hand. He
was a violent and sadistic b word. He enjoyed beating
up women and kids. You wanted to say that Fred
couldn't tackle a man, but he wasn't so slow in
attacking women and kids. In other words, Fred was a
big old fat coward.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
I like John. John gets it.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
John gets it.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
John sees through his weasley, slimy little exterior.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
He is a big ol' weasel if you look at
pictures of him. No, no, big old woman beating young kid,
hitting jerk. Then, on November fourth, nineteen sixty five, while
Fred is out driving the ice cream van, a young
boy allegedly runs out after the van, trying to get
(25:16):
Fred's attention to stop so he can buy an ice cream.
Fred hits him with the van, kills him, and then
the police investigate it and say that they deem it
as they rule it as an accidental death. Really, Fred,
on the other hand, thinks that there's probably going to
(25:38):
be some sort of public backlash or outcry, and instead
of sticking around and find it out dealing with the
fallout from this quote unquote accident, he decides that they're
going to move back to Gloucester and he takes Charmaine
and Anna Marie with him that December. Wow, So that
(26:01):
following month they moved back to Gloucester. A few months later,
Rena joins them with Issa and Anne McFall, both of
whom followed along with the family, hoping that they would
find better work for themselves in Gloucester in England.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Wow. Wow, what a scumbag. So already already starting off strong.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Real strong. Back in Gloucester, Fred finds work pretty quickly
instantially as a lilivery truck driver for a local slaughterhouse. Okay,
the wording for this was so weird because it's English
or British. It's English British, it's fresh and it says
(26:47):
like some really weird words and it looked them up
and I was like, it's a slaughterhouse. He's driving a
truck for this local slaughterhouse, and he picked up, like
I said, other odd jobs to make ends meet. He
was the kind of guy that you could call him
at midnight tell him that there was a plumbing incident,
and he would show up, show up.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Okay, was he? Do you know if he was still
making Rena work at this point?
Speaker 1 (27:11):
He ends up putting her back to work.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Well, isn't he fun after.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
A few months of being back? I believe so. At
this point, which I'm sure that it was already bad,
but he his mood swings become more heightened and more violent,
and he becomes very possessive and domineering over the women
and the girls. So Rena, Issa Ann and Charmaine and
(27:35):
Anna Marine. Charmaine is specifically targeted for his physical violence,
and it said that at this point I believe she's five,
he starts sexually abusing her.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Oh God, horrible man. Why is Charmaine specifically.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Because she's not his biological daughter? But I don't think
that matters going forward.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Clearly didn't matter for him in the past either.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Well, that's his sister her. I don't know if there's
a cross allegedly, but he ends up crossing it later Charmaine.
I think he just started to resent the fact that
she wasn't his biological daughter.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
And he felt like he was taking care of her
or something, so he just took out all his anger.
A poor baby, dude, Oh my gosh, I.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Know, we're a poor baby. And then at this point
he also, like I said, tells Rena she needs to
get back to sex work to help provide for the family.
So at this point Rena and Lisa are like, we're
getting the f out of here, and they start to
devise a plan to get away from Fred with Anna, Marie,
(28:40):
and Charmaine as quickly as they can. While Fred is
out working one day, Rena decides to call John McLoughlin
and asks him if he can come and pick up
the girl. She tells him that they it's unbearable at
this point, that she doesn't want to put her children
through this physical and sexual abuse anymore, and will you
(29:02):
just please come pick us up? And John McLaughlin Agreece, Okay, John,
I know. I love John as far as I can tell.
John's a great guy, car so as I can tell.
So the day comes, they go to meet John at
a specific location that they had all planned and The
(29:24):
only person that doesn't want to go back to Glasgow
is Anne McFaul, the seventeen year old now nanny. Mm
hmm okay, soa, Rina, Anna Marie, and Charmaine, I'll go
to meet John and Lisa's boyfriend who's also named.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
John, John like, okay, a lot of John's out there,
lots of John's.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
They go to meet them to load up, and they're
loading up the car and lo and behold Fred and
Anne McFall.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
She snitched.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
She snitched, that little B word I know. So f
rips Charmaine and Anna Marie away from Rena and tells
her you're not taking my girls and if you ever
come back here, I will kill you. Oh no, I
(30:15):
ever see you again, I will kill you. So John
and Fred get into a physical altercation. Then the cops
are called and the six of them decide to leave
without Anna, Marie and Charmaine. So at this point, Rina
chooses to leave her kids with Fred.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
You'd think that the police would be able to do
something about the abuse.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
You would think, Wow, I think it was a lot
of him versus her. She's a sex worker, does she
have that credibility? She's also the wife and it's the forties.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Yeah, it's so hard.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
I guess it's not the forties and where it's the sixties.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
It's hard to like hole. It's hard for me to
blame her. I want to, I don't, but it is
hard for me, hard because I feel like she was
also a victim. She was, and she.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Tried, she tried, she tried to get away, and I
don't think this was the first time that she tried
to get away with the girls and Fred actually would
come and find them and bring them back. Despite being
(31:37):
threatened by Fred, Rina returns to Glasgow or sorry, she
returns from Glasgow, and she travels between Glasgow and Gloucester
to make sure that Anna, Marie and Charmagine are actually
being taken care of and that they're okay, which, knowing Fred,
I can only imagine leaving your kids with him and
(31:59):
trying to have some sort of self preservation, but also
knowing that your toddler daughters are.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
With their creepy with their creepy, abusive.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Abusive stepdad and dad. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
God.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
So at this point, Rena tries to maintain a friendship
with Anne McFall, but Anne has since started to have
a sexual relationship with Fred and is trying to persuade
Fred to divorce Rena and get full custody of the girls. No,
so Rena is like, maybe I don't like you that
(32:35):
much and I don't want to be that civil with
you anyway, and is constantly sending these letters back and
forth to her family and to Lisa, and she's letting
them know that Fred can provide her with a better
life and that she is actually pregnant with Fred's child.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Oh my god, how can she want that for her children?
Speaker 1 (32:57):
She, I guess, came from a very abusive family background
as well, and like I said, she had lost her
boyfriend in an accident, so I think part of it
might have been a little Stockholm syndrome. Me. Yeah, but
she did care for those girls, like she did take
care of Charmagne and Anna Marie.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Maybe she didn't know about the sexual assault.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
I don't know at this point. Like it's hard. I
feel like it would be so hard not to see
those signs. And is he just doing it while Anne's
not there?
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Right?
Speaker 1 (33:29):
And I don't think he's treating her well either, Like
I don't think like maybe on the surface, he's telling
her that, yeah, they're gonna get married and they're gonna
have kids together and just be this big, happy family.
But in July of nineteen sixty seven, at just eighteen
years old, so two years after meeting Fred and Rena
(33:50):
and the girls and eight months pregnant, Anne McFall vanishes
without a trace.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Oh my god, No, he's had no more kids.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
He said, not with you. He wanted to keep his
marriage with Na. Surprisingly, wow, and he took her out.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Do you think it was an accident? No, okay, cool,
can't wait to hear more.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
So I'm not going to get into her disappearance just yet.
We'll go into that more to depth when we get
into like our victims, sure, multiple victims. Whenever Fred would
be asked about Anne, he would just tell people, oh,
she's gone back to Glasgow to be near her family.
(34:38):
And no one ever followed up on this claim. So
I feel like her family never questioned it. They thought
that she was just in Gloucester and had kind of
just stopped contacting them. I'm assuming Fred might have written
letters back to them. I don't know, but yeah, nothing
was heard about her ever again until twenty years later.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Oh my gosh, do you think that Rena kind of suspected.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
I don't know. I assume that she just thought that
maybe her, like Anne and Fred, had just decided to
end things and maybe back. Yeah, because at this time
I remember they're not their friendship is done right, So
I don't think she really inquired into it too much.
After that, didn't give it much more thought than maybe
(35:25):
Fred was just a pos towards her and she had
had enough and went back to live with family.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
So a month later, Rena moved back to Gloucester from
Glasgow to live with Fred and the girls. So she
decides she wants to be closer.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
She leaves John.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
She leaves John, and for a while it seems like
their relationship is improving and Fred is treating her very well,
but as always, within a year, things turns hour again
Rena moves out back to Glasgow. I'm like, how do
you have the money to move back and forth?
Speaker 2 (36:05):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (36:05):
No? And there's also claims that during these periods where
Arena's gone and Fred's left without a nanny to care
for Charmaine and Anna Marie, he places them into the
care of Gloucestershire Social Services, so they're essentially in foster care,
while he doesn't have someone to take care of them.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
These poor kids, dude.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Yeah, And if only that would have just been like
a red flag. Like I know, for a lot of
social services or child services, they want the kids to
be with family if possible. But I feel like in
this instance, if they're constantly going in and.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
He's using them as freaking daycare, yeah, it's time.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Yeah, basically it's time to just you know, find those
girls a more permanent and stable situation and I'll.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Very least look into it, right, wow, right, Okay.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
And here is where we met Rose. Oh. So, in
early nineteen sixty nine, Fred who is now twenty seven,
meets fifteen year old Rosemary Rose let's for the first time.
All they're waiting at the same bus stop. So she's fifteen,
(37:19):
he's twenty seven years old, he's twenty seven years old,
married with children.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
At first, Rose thinks Fred is ugly and repulsive, which
he is, and I wish she would have just gone
with her gut feeling. But he keeps kind of pasturing
her and keeps flattering her, and eventually she's kind of like, Okay,
I like this attention, groamy, And she'd never really had
(37:52):
a boyfriend She tells Fred about this, but she also
would go on to say that she has been from
miscuous and she has slept around I believe for money. Ah,
I see as a fifteen year old. Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
So she probably didn't have the best home life either.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
No, and we will get into that. So he asks
her out a couple of times. Rose refuses him and
then lets him still walk her from the bus stop
to her house. Okay, and then he figures out where
she works, which is a little bakery, and one day
(38:33):
a woman comes in hands her a present and lets
her know a man outside gave this to me to
give to you, and lo and behold. A few minutes later,
Fred walks in and asks Rose out again, and she
finally accepts freaky. I know me of my ex husband.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
And we all remember when husband was a.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Real dark, dark spiral that I went through with that
one anyway, So so at the start of their relationship,
Rose meets the girl Charmaine and Anna Marie, and she
treats them like they're her own. She's very loving and
(39:21):
carrying and shows them a lot of affection. She also
convinces Fred to take them all out on these big
outings where they would go and pick flowers and have picnics,
and it sounds very sweet.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Quite the upgrade.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Quite the upgrade. A few weeks later, though, Fred convinces
Rose to quit her job at the bakery and just
become a full time nanny to the girls. So she's
still living with her parents at this point, but instead
of going to the bakery, Rered is having her take
care of Charmaine and Anna Marie, giving her enough money
to bring home to the family to Roses family on
(39:56):
Fridays to keep up the appearance that she's just working. Yeah,
not just over at his house. Well a few weeks later, nope.
A few months later, Rose introduces Fred to her parents,
Bill and coincidentally Daisy Let's ironic same mamma name. Rose's
(40:20):
parents are appalled at the age gap and Fred in general,
because he's gross, I think walt. Bill tracks Fred real
quick and is like he's a pathological liar, real piece
of work. I don't want you anywhere near my fifteen
year old daughter.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
You creep, you creep.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
And Bill threatens. Fred directly tells him, if you continue
seeing my daughter, I'm going to call social services, get
them involved, and have her put into a girl's home,
which happens, oh for a little while. She ends up
running away from the girl's home and goes on those
with Fred.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
It's like one of those stories where love yeah, and
it drives them even deeper into.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Exactly Oh gosh, that poor girl. I should have just
done reverse psychology and been like, Fred's a great guy,
we love him so much.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
What are you talking about it? It has been like killed
a man, Kill the man, get him out of the way.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
That's just the hos.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
I'm a very Anakin skywalker in my viewpoints.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
I guess cut down the younglings. It's fine, just get
rid of them.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Wow, that's terrible.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
I know, I know. So part of this case also,
there is alleged molestation by Bill towards Rose. So Daisy
is interviewed long after this happens, like after Fred and
(41:48):
Rose are arrested, and she vehemently denies up and down
that Bill would ever touch his daughter in this way. Okay,
she just doesn't believe it, but unfortunate guests Roses brothers
aren't too quick to denying the claim. But anyways, it's
(42:09):
said that Bill sexually abused Rose from a very early.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
Maybe that's why he looked at that guy and knew
and what he was about.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
Yeah, and I think maybe if this is the case
in Roses mind, she's already been treated like garbage right
for sex, and so it's not that out of the
ordinary for this almost thirty year old man twice her age,
probably her dad's age.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
Well, and like you said, she didn't have a boyfriend,
but she was promiscuous. Right.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
There's accounts that Rose would be working at the bakery
and she would have she would close it for a
little while and go off and sleep with like these
construction workers nearby.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
It's a pretty common theme in children who have been
sexual abuse, right, absolutely, So it does kind of.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Looking for that validation, and that's how you view love
coming from men.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
And unfortunately a lot of times mothers will just turn.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
The other way. Yeah, yeah, turn the other way, turn
the other cheek.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
Whatever it is, blind eye, close the blind eyes, that
would close the whatever it is.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
Absolutely, it's just like that deniability that your husband could
do this to your child, like absolutely, and you'll die
on that hill time and time again.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
I'll tell you what. My kid ever came to me
and said that shit.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
I would shoot him in the ding ding point blank,
point blank.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
Maybe seeing God very silly. Well, if that's your thing,
that's your thing, I guess go into judgment room judgment.
I don't know. I don't know much about it anyway,
I digress so.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Obviously, like I said, Rose defies her parents wishes she
keeps seeing him. There's also, like I said, rumors that
Rose is engaging in sex work at Fred's how it
says caravan And I'm wondering if caravan is just a
fancy word for trailer in Britain.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
I don't know what, but that sounds right. That sounds
right to me. That's a lot of British terminology.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
I'm Herrington whole lot Gloucestershire instantly. And for my sport
in Society class last semester I did a full report
on cheese rolling in Gloucestershire and it is a folk sport,
a sport that happens where they race a wheel of
cheese down this really steep incline. It's hilarious and usually
(44:52):
people sustaining like broken bones and concussions. But look that up,
because when I was reading this, I was like, oh, glass,
home of she's racing a home of raising and Fred
and Rose West not you know, rough sounds like a
beautiful place. The guys, if you're from there, just tell
us what else you have so we can get these
(45:14):
two things out of our friends. Could compile all of
these things, one really fun folk sport and two really
terrible people. Yes anyway, So yeah, So they the parents
find out that Rose is engaging in sex work at
Fred's trailer, and so they once again get social services involved.
(45:38):
She's placed into a home for trouble teenagers in August
of nineteen sixty nine, and then she returns home on
the weekends to visit her parents, but she almost always
takes that opportunity to go see Fred.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
Wow, he really just must have had control, so much
control over these girls.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
Well, I think it's one of those like love bombing.
Clearly at the beginning of the relationship, I could definitely
see this playing a role into her mindset and what
ends up happening. But so on her sixteenth birthday, about
(46:18):
a year later, Rose leaves this home for troubled teenagers
and goes back to live with her parents. Fred at
the same time, is serving a thirty day sentence for theft,
petty theft and unpaid fines. Once he gets released, Rose
moves out of her parents' house and goes to live
with Fred. At the same time Fred goes, or like
(46:42):
shortly after Fred goes and gets Charmaine and Anna Marie
from social Services to move back in with him. I'm
just like, just leave the guys, Yeah, just leave them there.
You obviously had them locked up in a cage for
their first part of their life while you were around.
So why even I think, I know, he uses us
as a bargaining tool right until I have control and pity,
(47:06):
I'm sure, and pity exactly. And this is kind of
what Rose recounts at the beginning of the relationship too,
Like he claimed that Rina had left him and abandoned
him with these two girls, and so Rose takes pity
on him.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
See yeah, He's like, look at me, I'm just a single.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
Poor old guy with these two young kids going to
just they really need a mother figure anyway, B word,
did I say it?
Speaker 2 (47:33):
No? I wanted to, I just did. I did not.
I'm good. I'm good girl.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
Sounds like such squares.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
Sorry that we're squares now.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
So they all move back into this trailer and one
more time, Bill tries to prevent his daughter from going
to see Fred. She is examined by a police surgeon
in February nineteen seventy and is confirmed to be pregnant
with Fred's child.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
Oh my gosh, and what happened last time?
Speaker 1 (48:07):
Once again, in response to this news, she's put into
the troubled teen home, but she gets out the following
month and they are under the understanding that she's going
to terminate this pregnancy and go back and live with
her family. Instead, she goes and lives with Fred and
(48:30):
at this point her dad's just like, don't ever come
back to our house.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
We're done.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Wow. Three months later, they relocate to a two story
house in Midland Road, Gloucester. On the seventeenth of October,
Rose gives birth to their first child, Heather, and there
is some speculation that Heather might have been sired by
(48:56):
Rose's father and not Fred. Oh pattle, Like, there's no
they didn't do no proof for nothing, yeah, perturning test
right anything. So once again, Fred is arrested two months
later for stealing car tires. Oh okay, and he also
(49:19):
stole like the tax number off of a car or
something like that. I think it might be like their
registration over there. Oh, okay, so he steals tags. He
is kept in prison for eight months, okay, as he's
serving his sentence. Rose is looking after these three girls.
(49:42):
She's turned seventeen at this point, and now she's a
single mom basically while Fred's in prison or jail, of
these three young girls. And so.
Speaker 2 (49:54):
Is she working?
Speaker 1 (49:57):
I don't believe so. I think she's just taking care
of the girls and somehow managing to survive, managed, probably
living off of not social security but whatever it is,
like welfare, welfare.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
There you go, English welfare.
Speaker 1 (50:12):
If you know what that is, let us know. And
according to Anna Marie, she writes and details this whole
book about her childhood and abuse in life with these monsters.
Her and Charmaine are frequently criticized, beaten, and are basically
(50:34):
tortured while Fred is in prison by Rose, Rose begins
to resent them because she's the primary caregiver. Now she's
only seventeen and dealing with three young kids. I can't
even imagine that. Being said, Charmaine was very defiant and
(50:56):
I guess would stand up and yell back at Rose
quite frequently and would tell Anna Marie, Mom's gonna come
save us, Mom's going to come back and save us
from us. And fortunately, while Fred is still in jail,
(51:18):
Rose kills Charmaine and places her body in the floorboards.
Speaker 2 (51:26):
What like on purpose?
Speaker 1 (51:29):
Yes, she writes to Fred and essentially is like, I
couldn't do it anymore. She's just a defiant child and
I'd had enough basically, and.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
Oh my god, yeah, did nobody notice that there was
a child missing from the time.
Speaker 1 (51:52):
When asked about Charmaine, Rose tells them she went back
to live with her mother Rinaway.
Speaker 2 (52:00):
Rena will believe that, No, how did she kill this baby?
Speaker 1 (52:07):
I was just curious. I will get into the details,
I think later, just because this case does kind of unravel, and.
Speaker 2 (52:14):
So at this point she's just gone.
Speaker 1 (52:16):
So what is believed to have happened is that right
before Fred is released from prison in June nineteen seventy one,
she had taken the girls to go visit Fred. And
right after this, it looks like Charmaine was murdered by Rose,
(52:37):
and she would just tell everyone that she's gone to
live with her mother and bloody good riddance. So she
had no remorse and she let Fred, like Fred knows
that Rose killed her, and they just covered it up,
Like I believe she kept her body somewhere like in
(52:57):
the cellar at this point because they're living in a flat.
But I believe when Fred gets out of prison he
ends up dismembering Charmaine's little body and burying it in
the walls of the house.
Speaker 2 (53:09):
That horrific.
Speaker 1 (53:12):
And with that, we're gonna end this first part of
Fred and Rose West and we will pick it up
next week. Thank you all for bearing with that. I
know this case is a really difficult one to kind
of take end, just because there are so many levels
(53:32):
of depravity that is just awful, absolutely awful that it
got to this point, even like why were they allowed
to have kids? How would they why would you want
to keep those girls? If you're just it's because of control,
it's because he saw them as possessions.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
The fact that they were in the system multiple times
and there was no and there was nobody noticed that
there was maybe something going on as bonkers to me.
Speaker 1 (53:58):
I agreed, criminal agreed, absolutely well.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
We actually have quite a few UK listeners.
Speaker 1 (54:04):
So oh great, So you guys probably know all about
this case.
Speaker 2 (54:09):
Feel free to like send us info if you have it,
send us like if we got any terminologies.
Speaker 1 (54:15):
Gloucester here, Gloucestershire. I know it's Gloucester, it's not Gloucester,
luster Shire, Leouster shere.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
Yeah, let us know. Let's know what we got right,
what we got wrong.
Speaker 1 (54:26):
I definitely took out a lot of the different location names,
like the street names or whatever, because they have names
for all their houses too, or like whatever. I didn't
even want to try.
Speaker 2 (54:37):
So, yeah, it's like me and my Hagleywood all.
Speaker 1 (54:42):
The best, just going to salute y'all. And English is
a weird language anyway.
Speaker 2 (54:46):
Ours is a very terrible version of it.
Speaker 1 (54:49):
So it is the dumbed down version.
Speaker 2 (54:52):
We call it fall because Lee's fall down.
Speaker 1 (54:57):
It's so true though, I know, looking forward to fall actually.
On that note, yeah, but if you guys have any
case corrections, if you know of any updates that have
happened with cases that are still ongoing that we've covered
and you want us to cover those, hit us up
on the old Instagram's.
Speaker 2 (55:16):
Scream Dot and Dot Sugar Dot podcast on the Book
of Faces, Scream and Sugar, True Crime, Coffee Hour, TikTok,
Scream Dot and Dot, Sugar, Gmail, Scream and Sugar, Reno
at gmail dot com or now you can leave us
a voicemail that's seven seven five three eight six two
one eight five Until next time, Stay spooky yall at
(55:38):
yes Bye.
Speaker 1 (56:06):
Understand nothing being to be
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