September 11, 2025 • 67 mins
Welcome back, Spooky Squad, to another episode of Scream and Sugar, your true crime coffee hour. In part two of the Fred and Rose West case, we move deeper into the horrors behind 25 Cromwell Street. This episode examines the couple’s escalating pattern of abuse, the murders that shocked Gloucester, and the way they manipulated those around them to hide their crimes. We’ll also cover how suspicions began to grow, the investigation that unraveled their web of lies, and the chilling discoveries that finally brought their reign of terror to light.
Come hang with us...and grab your coffee, because this one's a doozy.
Stay Spooky!
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/scream-and-sugar-true-crime-coffee-hour--6015946/support.
This content is not appropriate for all viewers; viewer discretion is advised. PS. Let's just umbrella all our content with a blanket statement: allegedly, supposedly! Stay spooky, squad.
Come hang with us...and grab your coffee, because this one's a doozy.
Stay Spooky!
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/scream-and-sugar-true-crime-coffee-hour--6015946/support.
This content is not appropriate for all viewers; viewer discretion is advised. PS. Let's just umbrella all our content with a blanket statement: allegedly, supposedly! Stay spooky, squad.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back, everyone to another episode of Scream and Sugar
at the true crime podcast that dives into the darker
side of humanity while savoring a little sweetness on the side.
I'm your host, Candace and I'm Sahara and this is
going to be part two of Fred and Rose West.
(00:49):
What's up to her?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Hey, Candish, I'm good. I'm sodding your eyes.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
What is up? Just vibin, just vibe if you can't tell.
I'm a little sleepy because I got a puppy and
she is loco, so I'm up with her. Well, she
slept through the night last night, but usually around three am,
so I'm a real tired girl. Today.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Should posts a picture of her?
Speaker 1 (01:19):
I should a little opal opal may. She is a
German Shorthaired pointer mix and so cute, so cute. I'm
in love. So I have a new doctor doctor. Yeah,
she's the cutest baby. It's new with you. How was
your birthday? Your day of birth?
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Day of birth was great? Been having a great old time.
I'm also I'm also tired because I Anna Anastasia, who
was on the podcast early early on. She and I
went to Universal Studios.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Fun.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah, it was super fun and they have the horror
Halloween horror night things going on where's just really scary
haunted houses and scary vibes and all that stuff. It's
at night, and we went to that and it was
so cool, have fun, super blast. But now I have
to like make up all the time I missed at work.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Just in that lab I know, right, doing lab stuff.
Be in a labrat.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yeah, speaking of fun things. Today I brought Candice some
pie so good. Oh my god, my dad got me
a Peacan pie for my birthday from Western Village. You guys,
I ate almost the whole thing like two days, so
I've made can't just take the last part.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah, she's trying to force feed it to me right now.
But it's delicious.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
It's really good. So it's like surprisingly good.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
We can't buy.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
So that's your jam.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Thanks for sharing with me. Delicious, so sticky and sweet
and crawl chy crawln chi. Truly, I do love Western Village.
I feel like we go to Cafe Billini maybe once
every other month, but the little restaurant that they have
in there, it's pretty good. I love that steakhouse is good.
Never tried their pie, so Ela. This is the first
(03:08):
for me.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Hell yeah, brother, well.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Cool with that. I guess I will get back into
this case. When we left you last we were just
talking about how Charmain West was tragically murdered by Rose
while Fred West was in jail, and her body was
stashed in the cellar, not on the floorboards like I
(03:32):
had said last episode. So a little correction to that.
But yeah, so sad, super sad, and it just gets
worse from this point on. So once Fred does get
out of jail, he has to deal with the remains
(03:53):
of his stepdaughter Charmaine, and he dismembers her body and
up putting her in their new home twenty five Cromwell Street.
He buries her in the backyard.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Mm hm. A couple of months later, Rena shows up
and she's very worried about the girls. She's trying to
plead with Fred to give them to her so she
can take them back to Glasgow. Unfortunately, when she goes
to confront Fred, he strangles her to death.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Rena, Yes, so this is his first wife. Oh my gosh,
So she came to try to get the girls and
then he kills her exactly.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
What they believe happened is that Fred took her out
and they went and got drunk together, and then in
the back of his car, his forward popular he strangles
her to death in the back seat.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Do they think that they were hooking up or just arguing.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
I think they believe that he kind of brought her
out on the idea of that that they were just
going to talk about things, and that you know, she
was upset obviously about Charmaine and Anna Marie, and so
she goes out with him and then it just goes bad.
I feel like she probably probably got into an argument
(05:22):
or he just decided he needed to deal with her
so he could be.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
With Rose right, and probably to cover up the fact that, yeah,
she's one of the only ones who can say that
she wasn't like the girls weren't with her right right exactly.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
So when she's found, when they do find her body,
it's found with a length of metal tubing inside of
her remains, So I'm not too sure what that's all about.
But later it goes into detail about the possibility that
there was sexual assault prior to her murder. Oh, their
(05:59):
mo as we'll find out, is very very gnarly and
just freaking awful. She was also dismembered, and there were
bones missing from her body, like finger bones and toe bones,
which seems to be a trend in a lot of
(06:22):
the ruins that are founds so potentially kept as trophies. Gross.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Oh we actually when and I were in la we
visited the Museum of Death.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Oh cool out there.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
It was very, very fascinating, very cool spot.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
I've been to the one on New Orleans.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Oh you have okay?
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (06:41):
Did you?
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Also?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Did they have the necklaces with the fingers? No, there
was a couple of necklaces from like the Wild West
era where on the necklaces were fingers. They kept us trophies,
and they kept us trophies, and that's what that reminds
me of a lot. Absolutely, Did they ever find them
the fingers?
Speaker 1 (07:02):
No, that I know.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
I've now a lot of missing body parts in this world,
and I don't like it.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Where are the finger bones? Then? On January twenty ninth,
nineteen seventy two, so just a few months after, about
five months after Rena's murdered, Fred and Rose get married.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
And nothing brings you together like killing people.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Like right. The ceremony took place at the Gloucester Register Office,
and Fred's brother is the only one that attended again.
No wait, yes, sorry, no wait, because that had happened
with Rena's.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Well, I was gonna say that, so familiar.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
So Fred's brother John once again acted as the best man,
and no one else, no one else came to the wedding.
Several months later, Rose was pregnant with her second child,
so she said she had already had Heather and now
she had had her second child. And then a few
months later they move into the twenty five Crommell Street house.
So the remains, they bring Tremaine's remains to this new
(08:09):
house and bury here in the garden.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Okay, so they move again.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
They move again, so twenty five Crommell Street will be
the alleged the what they dubbed the House of Horrors
in this case, and they live here for a couple
of decades.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Okay, got it.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
So now it's a three story house. They rented it
at first, and then Fred was later able to purchase
it for about seven thousand pounds. To kind of make
the mortgage payments, they would rent out different rooms in
the house so they would have like a boarding house
essentially in the top story and then the second story
(08:47):
was where they lived, and then the main floor was
kind of like just the living area. So Fred is
able to kind of convert part of the ground floor
to where they have like a base, a wash basin,
and kitchen. That way, the lodgers upstairs stay upstairs and
then his family is separated from them on the ground
floor for their living activities. Later that year, June first
(09:13):
gives birth to their next child May June, and shortly
after this, she starts working as a sex worker in
the house.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
So he puts her to work.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
She is okay with it, apparently because allegedly she was
already doing that as she was working outside of that
bakery and engaging in sex work with construction workers nearby. Gotcha,
So she's totally open to the idea, not forced into
it at all, allegedly, And so she starts using this
(09:45):
room upstairs, and she advertises her services in a local magazine.
They sought a lot of clients through the West Indian
community in the area, and she also engaged in casual
sex with both male and female lodgers within their house.
So people that were just paying to live in one
(10:08):
of the rooms or letting one of the rooms. She
would also engage in sexual activities with them, but not
like as work, not as work. Right, she was bisexual,
so she like sought out women specifically, and a lot
of the female lodgers would recall later how kind of
creepy she was towards them, like to the point where
(10:31):
she was wearing like see through negliges around the house
to go talk to them. One girl was saying that
they were talking one time and Rose like spread her
legs and like full badge. Oh it acted like nothing
was weird, Like wasn't wearing panties and wild. It was
just like the female tenant was just like didn't say anything,
(10:52):
just didn't look. Basically was like I'm not like, I'm
not interested at all, right, she Rose. Also when having
sexual relationship with women, she would subject those sexual partners
with increasing levels of BDSM, so from like light choking
(11:15):
to slapping them to inserting large dildos into different orifices.
If the woman resisted or expressed any pain or fear,
Rose would get excited about it and say aren't you
a woman enough to take it?
Speaker 4 (11:32):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yikes, yeah, too many of these women. It became a parent.
Rose and Fred were regularly participating in threesomesh They obviously
took pleasure in getting women to go beyond their sexual limitations,
like what they had had as boundaries before. Like I said,
(11:56):
lots of bondage and dominant like dominatrix type of stuff.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Is like fine if your partner's into it and it's
all consensual. And it seems like they were pushing the
envelope quite a lot, which is not what BDSM.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
It's all no at all, not at all, It's all
about consent and boundaries. They would also take photographs and
Fred also a lot of the times when she would
have over clients for sex work, he had like a
baby monitor and hidden cameras in the rooms, So while
she was engaging in sex work, he was getting off
(12:33):
on the idea of her being pleasured by another man,
and was obviously recording all of this without these men's knowledge.
Oh yikes.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
I wonder if you tried to use it as like
blackmail later or something, or he could if he wanted.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
To, if he wanted to. I think it was they
just were.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
For them, it was just sexual fantasy, got it.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
So they dubbed it as Rosa's Room, this room where
she would engage in sex work. He also had like
a bunch of different peop holes throughout the room that
he could kind of walk up to and watch. Freaky. Yeah, yeah,
very creepy. She had a separate doorbell as well for.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Like her collars for.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Her different callers, so when the kids would hear this,
they would know to kind of be out of sight. Yikes.
Crazily enough, by nineteen seventy seven, her father and Fred
started to kind of make amends and they end up
opening a cafe together called The Green Lantern, which is also.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
A movie that's like a Marvel character.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
And then allegedly, once he found out that Rose was
a sex worker, he started coming over and paying her
for sex as well.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
I'm sorry her father, Wow, that's horror.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
During throughout like the course of all of this, so
within like ten years, she gave birth to eight different
children from different men, not necessarily just Fred, but Fred
accepted them all as his own. So all together they
had ten kids. Oh my gosh, in that one house
and that one house. Yeah, that's horrific, I know.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
And especially how they've we've known that they've been treating
these kids, I can't even imagine.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
So by the time the kids reached the age of seven,
they were all given different chores that they had to
perform within the house. They were not really allowed to
socialize outside of the house. They would go to school,
but a lot of the kids kind of had like
they were withdrawn obviously because abuse happening at the house.
(14:55):
If they said anything, Fred and Rose would threat in
them and basically tell them that you won't go back
to school or you'll be severely beaten, right she would.
Rose specifically took great joy in like doling out punishment
to the kids, but she would make sure not to
(15:16):
leave marks anywhere visible. Oh yikes, what a b word.
Two of the kids were reported to like run away
from home. One of them was Heather, Rose and Fred's
first daughter together, and another was her younger brother, Steven.
They would go stay with friends and then eventually kind
(15:39):
of end up returning home when they kind of wore
out their welcome. I had also said before when Fred
wasn't able to take care of the girls Anna, Marie
and Charmaine, he would put them in social services. They
kind of did the same thing with these kids. They
would be in and out of social services. So if
they weren't able to take care of them or if
(16:00):
like Fred would get in trouble because you would have
like bouts of trouble with the log from petty theft
to assault, they would just kind of be brought over
to social services kind of use them as like a
temporary care placement, and then they would ultimately give the
(16:21):
kids back to Fred and Rows, which I think is.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Just wild bonkers. Yeah, it's almost like they were using
them as like temporary babysitters.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Like right, it's so when they need to have a
break or whatever, they but like you're going to go
into social like you're going to go into care, which
is insane.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Those poor children.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
So this is a really rough part of it. To
sexual assault of a minor and incest, we're going to
kind of go into a little bit of detailed. I
don't want to go too far into it because it's
pretty rarely. But in September nineteen seventy two, when Anna
Marie was only eight years old, she was taken down
(17:05):
into the basement, forced to undress, and when she didn't
immediately start undressing, Rose ripped her clothes off and restrained
her before Fred, her dad, brutally raped her. Oh my god,
wild Rose is in the room encouraging him to do so.
(17:27):
Ough wow. After the rape, Rose brings Anna Marie into
the bathroom, hands her a towel, like a sanitary towel
like I mussu being a washcloth or white wipe, and
just tells her I'm sorry, but this happens to every girl.
It's it's a father's job, and don't worry, you don't
(17:48):
say anything to anybody. So she's ultimately explaining to Anna Marie,
an eight year old child, that is the job of
her father to sexually abuse her and then it's perfectly
and that she doesn't need to tell anyone about it.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
That's horrifying, and it sounds like those rumors of her
father m m. That's all the her were very very accurate.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
And they also go on to threaten her and say
they made very clear that it's going to continue happening
to her, like it's going to be a regular occurrence,
and that if she ever says anything to anyone, they
will beat her.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Oh my gosh, that poor girl.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Rose also sexually abused Anna Marie and would bind her
tow different furniture and rape her. They also force her
to do household chores while wearing like skimpy clothing, which
is just awful an eight year old. Yeah, Jesus Christ.
(18:49):
They also forced her into sex work as well, at
the age of sixteen, and they never like they told
her just to not tell the clients her age. I'm
assuming it's before from the age of thirteen. Sorry, from
the age of thirteen they told they forced Anna Marie
into sex.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Work, so they really just got her ready to go.
They groomed her for that life. Wow, let's come, do
you Was it the other kids as well or just
Anne Marie?
Speaker 1 (19:20):
So? Anna Marie has an entire book that kind of
recounts her life living with these monsters. And I had
already mentioned Charmaine from the age of three was sexually
abused by Fred, right, So I'm assuming it was all
of them, all of the girls at.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Least, yeah, because I'm like, maybe she specifically hated Anna
Marie because she wasn't hers she was Rena's daughter. Yeah,
but I think you're right. I would assume they're all
at the very least being abused by Fred, if not
both of them. She's still Fred's biological daughter. Fred doesn't
(20:01):
seem to have any he has no quest about that.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
So there's kind of this recurring theme with this couple too,
where they will hire on a nanny to help with
the kids and then try to convince them to be
in like a thrupple.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
And they were doing that before as well.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
They were doing that in the first episode. Yes, Fred
at least was doing that before with Rena, that's right,
and Anne who he ended up murdering. Wow, she was
eight months pregnant. So October nineteen seventy two, Fred and
(20:41):
Rose hire Carolyn Owens, who is a seventeen year old
and they have her start nanny for the kids. Fred
and Rose had picked her up on a secluded road
as she was hitchhiking from her boyfriend's house home. Learning
that Carolyn didn't like her stepfather and was looking for
a job, Fred and Rose offered her part time employment
(21:03):
as a nanny and also promised her a room essentially
while she was watching the kids. They also promised that
she would be driven home each Tuesday so she could
go and visit her boyfriend. So a couple days later
she moves in. She shares a room with Anna Marie,
the West's daughter, and Caroline immediately realizes that Anna Marie
(21:27):
is very much withdrawn and just kind of has no
real emotions. She's not talking to Carolyn. She's just very
don't very much like don't talk to me, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Stand off as you would be traumatized.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Oh great, here's another person that's here to abuse me. Right,
So she rose has told Carolyn that the gentleman callers
that were coming over were coming over for a massage
and that she was a messuse, uh, which Carolyn called
bs on pretty quick.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Yeah. Fred also told Carolyn for some reason, that he
was very skilled at giving abortions and that if she
ever needed the service, he would be willing to perform
here for what. He would also talk to her about
like these very vulgar scenarios, and he would tell her
all about like their sexual escapades and how they were
(22:29):
really into just BDSM and if she ever heard any noises,
that's what's going on that kind of thing, and if
she ever wanted to join in just to let them know.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Grow.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Yeah, this is like the first week she's living there,
and just like I would have'm like, okay, I gotta
go by my stepdad sucks, but this is worse, no kidding.
(23:12):
She so she starts to get these sexual advances from
both Fred and Rose, and she's like, Okay, I'm not
into this. I'm going to go home. They allegedly let
her leave the house when she goes to hitchhike back
to her the little town ship that she's from, and
(23:32):
they wanted to have sex with her. So they follow
her and pick her up, knock her over the head,
bring her back to the house, brutally rape her for
several hours, and she decides to this is a thing
like a recurring theme in people that survive these sort
(23:55):
of like assaults. They apologize for their conduct and tell
her that they're going to drive her home, and so
they are going to like a laundromat. And once they
pull up and stop, Carolyn's like being really friendly with him, like, Oh,
don't worry about it. It's fine, it's fine. I totally understand.
(24:19):
She hops out and says okay, bye, and just like
books it sorry.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
I didn't even hear it. I want so she got away.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
So she got away.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Good for her. I feel like she did what she
had to do to get out of that situation. It's like,
do you remember that case. It got really famous recently
Rodney a Pulko case where he was like on the
dating show, the TV show. Yeah, and the girl who
finally got him, like who finally survived? She used was
(24:51):
it like reverse psychology.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Where she said it's okay baby? Oh?
Speaker 2 (24:55):
She was like, Hey, would it be okay if you
didn't tell anybody that this happened? I would like, like
people might look bad on me about it. And for him,
he was like, oh, well, she's embarrassed and she's not
going to tell anybody, and it like totally worked, and
that's kind of I feel like the only way out
of these situations is to try to play Kate.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
You're right, exactly right, right. There's also like people that
I remember. There's there's one scenario what I heard of
where it was someone's aunt and she was in the
kitchen and this dude was like he broken and she
just told him to get an effing job, and she
just started berating him and he and I was like,
I love that.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Tell me that's like not some New York mom, like
New York and get.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Up in my house, get a job. It cracks me
up so hard.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
It's a guy, right, all right, I'm out here. I
don't know.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Leaves, she gets back home, she immediately reports the situation
to her mom, who takes her to the police, and
they arrest and Rose and they're charged with assault and
decent assault and actual bodily harm and rape. But during
the court case, the judge is just like essentially lets
(26:17):
the walk free and says, oh, it was just like
a a misunderstanding, misunderstanding, and that's kind of how Fred
and Rose just split this around on Carolyn, and so
all of the charges are dropped and they're able to
walk out of the courthouse that day. Oh my god,
many times does this have to happen? I mean, this
(26:39):
is in the seventies, but it's just like it still
hasn't changed. I feel like, like no one ever she said,
she said, And that's what they always say. So I
think this just further like aids and Fred and Rose
wanting to continue on with this behavior. So they're like, well,
we can get away with it. Yeah, nothing to haven't
gotten caught for Charmaine or Arena or Anne. So and
(27:01):
now Carolyn literally escaped, but now they realize they can't.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Can't let them go.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Their victims go.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah, like even if we think that they're not going
to tell clearly they're going to tell.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
I feel like the justice system had that chance, I know,
and they blew it.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Not even three months later after this assault trial, Fred
and Rose killed their first known victim together, and that
is nineteen year old Linda Goth, who was dating one
of their male like their male lodgers at the time,
so one of the tenants that they had, so she
(27:41):
would come over to the house regularly she would interact
with Fred and Rose. So on the nineteenth she moved
into the house on Cromwell Street. The next day, Fred
and Rose told the other tenants that they had kicked
her out for being rude and not following the rules.
(28:03):
Linda's mom actually goes over to the house after a
couple of weeks that go by and Linda hasn't shown up.
We're called or written, and so her mom is talking
to Rose at the front door and she's like, Hi,
have you seen my daughter? I know that she was
staying here, and Rose at first acts like she doesn't
(28:26):
even know who she's talking about. Linda's mom looks on
the clothesline and sees some of Linda's clothes are hanging
off of it. Oh my god. Also Rose is wearing
Linda's slippers in like a robe, and so she almost
(28:47):
immediately is like, my daughter's gone, Like she just had
that good feeling. Mothers usually no, and when she goes
to the police about it, it's just they're like, she's
probably just a run away. She's nineteen, she probably just
left skipped town. And this is repeated over and over
(29:07):
again for these women that most of them don't have
people come look for them. But Linda's mom definitely like
had this gut feeling like, Okay, what did you do
to my daughter?
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Right, It's weird that her she said that she was
dating one of the men that was there. It's weird
that he didn't say where is she?
Speaker 1 (29:23):
No? I agree. I think that Fred and Rose were
just masters of manipulation. So they had told this guy like, oh, yeah,
we told her to leave and so she's not coming
back here, and he was like, well, I guess I
don't know, crazy, I don't know. Later, when Linda's body
(29:44):
is found, it's also dismembered. The jaw bone, her mandible
is completely wrapped and like an adhesive surgical tape to
silence her, and there are two small plastic tubes running
into her nasal cavity to help her breathe, because they
had completely tried to shut her up, so she was bound, gagged,
(30:10):
and then given to tubes so she could breathe. Oh
my god. There was also large sections of string and
knotted fabric found with her remains, and what investigators think
happened is that she was likely suspended from wooden beams
(30:31):
in the cellar, which later Fred would admit he had
basically turned this cellar into a torture chamber. Yikes, dude,
that poor girl. She likely died of strangulation. She was
also missing five cervical vertebras, so her neck vertebrae, buttella,
(30:54):
and finger bones were missing, and she was buried in
a pit underneath the garage.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
It's like they kill these women and then they just
take a random pieces that are like small and easily served.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
That's crazy.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
So where are they putting these little do you think
they're eating? They could be eating them the bones, just
the whole, because they're small enough.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
The vertebrae would be more difficult to eat, and the
patilla is like.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
They put it in a smoothie.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
I don't know, yes, if they pulverized it and made
it into a paste or a powder that make it
into a paste and add it to soups or something.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Right, because I'm like, else would you get rid of it?
Because it's something clearly that it is important enough to
you that you would take it.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
I think he potentially had a separate spot for all
of his trophies, is what I'm thinking, since they didn't
find them ever, like maybe there was a second location.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Think he was taking them somewhere.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
And because Rina's body is buried out into a field
along with Anne, so they're both buried in a field,
Charmaine and Linda's bodies were kept on the property grounds.
So I'm wondering if maybe he had a separate spot
for all of his trophies because he did the dismemberment.
(32:23):
From what we can tell of all the victims, weird
like Rose with Aiden the killing, but it seems like
Fred did more of the dirty work, got it. Five
(32:52):
more victims were murdered and buried in the cellar at
Cromwell Street between November nineteen seventy three and April nineteen
seventy five. Fifteen year old Caroline Cooper, who was abducted
November tenth, nineteen seventy three, she was abducted. After spending
the night like at a movie with her boyfriend, she
went to catch a bus and then disappeared. In what
(33:17):
they think happened is Fred and Rose cruise By saw
her standing here alone and convinced her that they would
give her a ride.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Oh poor girl.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
She was also found later with surgical tape around her mouth,
tubes in her nose, and a braided cloth that was
used to suspend her from the ceiling. Over the next
seventeen months, there were four more victims between the ages
of fifteen and twenty one. They all were basically picked
(33:48):
up in the same way. Fred and Rose would see
them along the road, they would pick them up. They vanished.
People had no idea where they went, and the police
basically kept with that story of oh maybe the runaways,
maybe they just left town. We don't know, there's a
huge old Yeah, there's no proof otherwise, right, yeah. In
(34:13):
nineteen seventy five, eighteen year old Wannita Mott is murdered
by Fred and Rose West. He decides now that he's
going to put concrete over the entire floor of the cellar.
After he dismembers and buries her, and then he converts
that section of the house into a bedroom for his kids.
(34:34):
Oh so for the next three years the murder stop.
And we're not really sure if Fred kept murdering girls
and women without rows and outside of the house, but
from what they know, it stopped at the house.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
That's interesting.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Do they know why not? Sure? Maybe they thought that
there's some heat coming down on them a little bit,
because I'm surprised.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Rose also wasn't like Jonesen.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
I'm sure she was so. Then in May of nineteen
seventy eight, and this is one of those ones where
they're not sure if Rose participated in this murder and rape,
but they know that she knew about it. Fred murdered
eighteen year old Shirley Robinson, who was a tenant at
(35:30):
the house. So she had met Fred at the Green
Lantern Cafe, the business that he owned with Rose's father,
and she almost immediately moved into the house. She was
heavily pregnant at the time of her murder, and it
was likely that she was carrying Fred's child. Oh my god,
(35:57):
be okay.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
Okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Either he.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Has no issues killing pregnant woman.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
He doesn't, and Rose at first was bragging about it
to other people, and then she started to resent her
for it.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Oh, I see, like she was bragging about this girl
caring Fred's baby, and then she was like she was
like actually kind of jelly.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Because of Rose's resentment for surely it said that she
had Fred kill her. He convinced or she convinced Fred
to kill her.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
I wonder if he also didn't want her carrying his kid.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
I don't think he really cares. Yeah, I don't think
he has any qualms with it because Anne like his
first baby mama after Rena or during his marriage Serena. Yeah,
I think he was just I don't know. I don't know.
He had no, no qualms, no resentment. He her dismembers
(37:01):
her body. She was not found with anything restraining her,
so no restraints were found on her body, and the
fetus had been removed, and Charley also had several bones
missing again found Yeah, so put separately.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
From her, hopefully postmortem.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
I would assume so. But I think they didn't know.
There was no there was no boundaries for these two psychopaths.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
No kidding.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
So right after Shirley's murdered, Rose goes and tries to
claim maternity benefits under Shirley's name at Social Services, they
deny her.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
That should be a huge red bag, right, gosh right?
Speaker 1 (37:54):
When again, when they were like asked about where Shirley went,
Fred and Rose would just tell people that she went
back to West Germany to live with her family, with
her dad specifically. And then their final murder that definitely
was sexually motivated, happened August fifth, nineteen seventy nine. Alison Chambers,
(38:16):
who was a sixteen year old runaway from a local
children's home, went to live and work for the West
sas a nanny. She's believed to have been living within
the house for a couple of weeks. Rose promised her
that she was going to live on a peaceful farm essentially,
(38:37):
and that Fred and Rose were just waiting to move
to this idyllic country farm.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Of like when parents tell their children that's.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
The happy yeah, or kiddie went yeah, or the fish
I know, it's so sad. She was also buried in
the garden at Cromwell Street, close to the bathroom mall,
and she was more than likely dismembered, but her skeleton
was kind of already disrupted when investigators found her body. Gotcha,
(39:16):
So what kind of cracked this whole case open? Is
the disappearance of Heather West. So this is Fred and
Rose's first child. She had been showing outward signs of
abuse and distress, like psychological distress. She after like a
(39:40):
pe class. She wouldn't go into the showers afterwards like
you're supposed to, and the gym teacher was basically like
or the pee teacher was like, you need to take
a shower, and it's open, like you don't have a
private stall for your showers. But a lot of the costmates.
When she did finally disrobe, notice that she had scars
(40:02):
and bruises all over her body, and they were all
in different various stages of healings, so she would have
some purple and black ones and some yellow ones as well.
When they asked her about these bruises and scars, she
would just explain them away with I've got in fights
with my siblings. Oh, so she was lying about it,
(40:25):
trying to cover them up because like she had probably
already learned that if you told what was happening to you,
it would make it worse. It would make it worse exactly.
So Heather drops out in the summer of nineteen eighty
six and starts applying for different jobs, trying to get
away from Fred and Rose. She is hired on at
(40:48):
a holiday camp and I don't even know how to
pronounce that word parkway or quai quaw. So she starts
applying for all these jobs. She ends up getting hired
on at this holiday camp as a cleaner, and she
(41:10):
is so excited. But then by the next year, when
she's supposed to start this job, she receives a call
and they essentially told her that she's no longer needed.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Oh no, was it just a coincidence?
Speaker 1 (41:28):
I believe so. So she's just devastated by this, and
that night, like her whole family, like all the other
siblings claimed that they hurt her, like sobbing profusely all
through the night, just because she's absolutely devastated. She thought
she was finally gonna have her ticket away from these monsters,
(41:49):
and yeah, that's horrible.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
So that poor girl.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
The following morning, on June nineteenth, she is at the house.
Everyone says that she's kind of like, you know, a
little anxious. But when the rest of the siblings come
home from school that day. Heather's nowhere to be found.
And what Fred and Rose tell her brothers and sisters
(42:21):
is that she actually there was a mistake and she's
actually heading to this holiday camp for work for the summer.
But that's not what happened at all, of course not.
Heather was murdered that morning by Fred. I guess what
(42:43):
happened is that they had gotten into an argument and
Fred kind of just went into a fit of rage
and strangled her to get death in the kitchen. Oh
he then dismembers her body and buries it in the
garden with the rest of his victims. And then after
this he keeps telling the kids like years past after this,
(43:03):
and he would keep telling like her brothers and sisters,
Oh yeah, like I saw her the other day. She's
working as a sex worker now, but she looks good.
What the fuck? So they're like, yeah, have you They
like the kids would question their parents. They'd be like,
where's Heather, Like have you heard her? Heard about her?
Like what's going on with her? Like we miss her?
And yeah, there's always like a different story, like whether
(43:25):
she was at the summer camp again or now she's
sex like she's a sex worker in the nearby town,
and it was just like just consistent, just consistent. And
then then it turned and the kids kind of like
caught on, and when they would misbehave, Fred would jokingly
(43:46):
tell them, you better quit acting up or you're gonna
end up like Heather and get buried in the backyard.
These little kids, Oh my god, I've been threatened them.
A story goes from oh, she's doing well too, Nope,
she's buried in the backyard actually.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
And the worst part is, like I feel like, as
the child, you don't even know which one's the correct.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
Story, right, And so this finally finally so ridiculous to
me six years later, in May of nineteen ninety two.
So six years after, how there's murder. Louise, who is
Fred and Rose's thirteen year old daughter, is raped by Fred.
(44:35):
Her siblings hear her screaming and partially strangled. When Rose
gets home, Louise tells her mom what happened, and Rose says, well,
you asked for it. What.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
I'm surprised he waited till she was thirteen, to be honest.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
Right. Finally, in on August fourth of that year, one
of the kids had like made a friend and this
friend's mom had kind of heard about what was going
on at the house because the kids had been talking
and like what they confided in their new friend, and
(45:18):
the mom found out about it and went straight to
the police and was like, you need to investigate this family.
And August sixth, so two days later, the police obtained
a search warrant for the West House and they go
in on the pretext of looking for stolen property, which
Fred is already known to do petty theft, and they
(45:39):
find they find ninety nine different pornographic movies, homemade and
the store bought. I'm also assuming that Louise was forced
into sex work at this age as well, because that's
when Anna Marie was forced into sex work, right, I'm
assuming how they're so. Louis makes this a full statement
(46:04):
to the police, telling them all about her father and
mother's abuse and that had begun at eleven, so they
waited a little bit longer for this poor girl. Oh
my god. The next day, all of the kids are
brought into foster care, so there's like, nope, time to go.
(46:24):
They're medically examined and there's clear evidence of sexual and
physical abuse. The kids also tell the police that their
mom was the one, so Rose is the one that
inflicted most of the abuse. And Fred would frequently just
tell them like, well, you shouldn't act up or you're
(46:46):
gonna end up like Heather and be buried into the patio.
And so the police are like, Okay, where's Heather. What
happened to your daughter? They try to spend the yarn
of oh, she's she's you know, she's a she's working
in another town over and then finally Fred cracks and
he tells the investigators, actually, no, she is buried in
(47:10):
my backyard. You see why it took me so long
(47:30):
to do this case. It is just awful.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
It's he I wonder what made him crack, Like it
was just like the time.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
I think, Yeah, I think he was just like there's
so much evidence like piling up, Like I don't know
that they were able to find videos of his daughter's
rapes because I'm assuming they filmed them all. Yeah, probably, huh.
But they also found like photographs of these missing women,
(48:00):
So some of the victims of Fred and Rose West,
they were like straight up polaroids of them. Wow. Yeah,
I'm glad he just gave up. That's crazy too. So
when the police get this search warrant, they initially aren't
(48:20):
finding any remains in the backyard and Fred kind of
led them to the wrong spot. They bring him in
to kind of help out, like with pointing out where
the bodies are buried, and they think at this point
that it's just Heather, right, They think it's just Heather
at this point, So they start digging and he's like,
you're not gonna find anything over there, And I think
(48:41):
he's trying to move them away from where the other
bodies are buried because he could potentially just get away
with like a wrongful death or like a manslaughter charge
for his daughter, saying that there was an accident, but obviously,
if there's more than one body in your backyard, guess
what likely not an accident. They also brought up that
(49:07):
Rena and Charmaine had disappeared in nineteen seventy one. There
was no missing person report ever filed, so there was
never an inquiry into these two individuals. So at this
point they received the search warrant and they completely barricade
off access to the house in the back garden. Reporters
(49:32):
start showing up because they catch wind of what's going on.
And people start building scaffolding their house. Yeah, and they're
on the So neighbors start building scaffolding and then charging
reporters money to go through their house and go up
into the scaffolding to look over and watch. Like this
(49:56):
whole excavation hustlers, because first they just find the one body.
They find what they believe is Heather West remains. Then
Fred makes like a crack about, oh did you see
that over there too, one of the investigators, and they
like they totally missed it. There's a bone right there.
(50:16):
There's another bone right there sticking up out of the ground.
Like he's just amused the fact that they're not.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
They didn't even see it.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
Yeah, not even noticing that there's more than one body
buried there. And of course he was like, Okay, well,
obviously we need to excavate further in this area.
Speaker 2 (50:36):
I wonder he wanted to get caught. Maybe I just
don't get it.
Speaker 1 (50:41):
I think he just thought he was so smart and
that he had gotten away with this for twenty years,
right plaster minus some. Over and over again. When he
would be questioned about it, Fred would deny the fact
that Rose was involved anyway. He would say, no, no, no,
it's all me. Rose had nothing to do with it.
(51:04):
I killed Heather, I killed Charmaine, I killed like He
literally just pointed all of the blame on himself and
tried to make sure that Rose was kept out of it.
Speaker 2 (51:18):
What are romantic?
Speaker 1 (51:19):
I know, right, So they find a femur protruding out
of the area that Fred had told police not to
look in, like, he told him, no, you don't need
to look over there, and there's nothing over there. This
is where Heather's buried over here, don't go over there.
And they were just like, we're gonna have to tear
up this entire backyard. Yeah, clearly. So they find a
(51:42):
jumble of a bunch of different human remains and they
are taken to the police headquarters where it is a
young woman with one kneecap and several flangies missing, so
that would be Linda. Linda. They also found fingernails and
(52:05):
it looked like the fingernails had been pulled off of
the body. Wall still alive. Oh god, yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:14):
So that was part of their torture.
Speaker 1 (52:15):
That was part of their means of torture. Yeah, oh
my god. And the next set of remains that they
had found several hours later, they were able to identify
with dental records as being Heather West, so that Linda
and now they had Heather. Heather is the one that
was missing her fingernails, so she had been rudely tortured before.
Speaker 2 (52:37):
I thought he just strangled her. And during an argument,
useful of us.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
Is wow you have heard Oh yeah, yeah, he just
strangled her and fit a rage and that was it. Nope,
he probably us the same memo that he did on
all the other women.
Speaker 2 (52:53):
And girls tortured her. Wow, what a sick dude.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
That night, at are they identify Howther's remains, they tell
Fred we found another femur a third, so that's at
least two people. So then he goes he's brought back
to Cromwell Street and he shows two more locations, one
of Shirley Robinson and he tells them basically she was
(53:25):
a lesbian, but she's also pregnant with my child, which
I'm just like, you're such a what a freak. You know.
The other the other side of remains were never identified.
It's like there was like another He didn't know exactly
who this second woman was. He said it was just
(53:46):
one of Shirley's friends, is what he said. But I
think he was just referring to the fact that they
were close together as far as their grave site goes
with the site, yeah, Shirley's friend.
Speaker 2 (53:58):
So to this day still don't know where.
Speaker 1 (54:01):
They end up finding out who all of the different
victims are, but at this point he just doesn't know
who it is. He doesn't remember, Wow, I should tell
you something. So after these remains are found, they're like, Okay,
we need to search inside, outside, and.
Speaker 2 (54:25):
Maybe out of that cement in the cellar.
Speaker 1 (54:29):
Yeah. Well, and then they start like questioning him, like
where's Rena, Where's Charmaine? Where's Rena? Because you told us
that they're in Glasgow, but no one's heard from them
since nineteen seventy one and we don't know where they are.
There's been no trace of them, what happened to them?
And he he just he doesn't say anything. He just
(54:53):
keeps quiet at first, and then eventually there's a note
that he hands to his lawyer that says like, I,
Frederick West, authorize my solicitor or my lawyer, Howard Ogden,
to advise Superintendent Bennett that I wish to admit a
further approximate nine killings, expressly Charmaine, Rina, Linda, Goth and
(55:17):
others to be identified. Wow, so he admits to Charmaine's murder,
but they're like, you were in jail at the time
of Like once they figure out like the timeline, the
timeline of her death, they're like, there, you weren't. You
were in jail, you couldn't have killed her. Anyway, After
he's questioned a little bit more, he starts talking about, oh, yeah,
(55:40):
there's bodies in the house too. So there are five
bodies buried in the cellar and a six body beneath
the ground floor bathroom, and he tells investigators that most
of them had been hitchhikers or girls he had picked
up from bus stops, and he claims that all of
(56:03):
these six girls were killed because they had threatened to
tell on Rose or tell Rows of his infidelity. So
they're basically like, well, we slept together and now I'm
going to go tell your wife. So that's why he
killed him, which that's not why he killed him. No.
(56:26):
Fred also says that the dismemberment of the bodies just
made it easier to bury the remains, so he's like, yeah,
He didn't even like look it at as like a
weird thing to do. He was just very much like, yeah,
just like so I could fit him better in a hole. Yeah,
he's like, that's just a solution to a problem, completely
detached from reality, kidding. From March fifth to March eighth,
(56:49):
police find an additional six bodies. Each of them had
been extensively mutilated, so dismembered, missing bones again, so a
lot of the flangies and toebones are missing. And it
was very evident that all these women were subjected to
(57:11):
severe torture and sexual abuse. We're just gonna say rape
because I feel like sexual abuse isn't enough of a
I don't know, it just makes it sound like.
Speaker 2 (57:24):
It doesn't sound as intense as it actually was.
Speaker 1 (57:27):
Yeah, for them exactly in this cellar grave mass grave
that they find, they find the serrated knife that he
had used to dismember them. He used to like he
used a serrated knife like a bread knife to dismember
the bodies. Oh my gosh. And yeah, and most of
(57:52):
them had, like I said that, the tape around their
mouths so they couldn't speak or yell, and then tubes
and started into the noses so that they could breathe.
Speaker 2 (58:01):
Oh my gosh, absolutely horrific.
Speaker 1 (58:05):
Honestly, he completely refuses to tell them the whereabouts of
the missing bones. By the way, he never gives that
up to investigators.
Speaker 2 (58:16):
Gotta go, I cannot.
Speaker 1 (58:19):
Rose is finally arrested April twentieth, nineteen ninety four, and
she is brought in on charges of raping an eleven
year old girl and assault of an eight year old boy.
Both of these charges are from the nineteen seventies, so
why is she finally coming in for these? Now?
Speaker 2 (58:41):
What? What?
Speaker 1 (58:44):
She refuses bail and she is taken and held at
the maximum security wing. She's questioned more about the murders,
in particular Heather's and Linda's, and on the twenty fifth
of April, she's formally charged with Linda gossp murder. By
May six, Fred and Rose are both charged with five
(59:06):
counts of murder, and Rose keeps stating I'm innocent, which, no,
you're not.
Speaker 2 (59:12):
Me, couldn't be.
Speaker 1 (59:16):
She repeats this over and over again, like vehemently, that
she was innocent through the whole thing and had no
idea that Fred was doing this, just like you got
caught in the case of Caroline Owens, Like you should
that should have just stopped it there.
Speaker 2 (59:33):
No kidding.
Speaker 1 (59:34):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (59:36):
I wonder if they had like talked about it before
and they're like, hey, if you can get me off,
like I'll make sure I bust you out of prison
or something.
Speaker 1 (59:43):
Yeah, still take care of the kids.
Speaker 2 (59:44):
Or yeah whatever. The kids are better off so far
away from you freaking weirdos.
Speaker 1 (59:49):
Right, So they are charged with the murders. Friend charged
with twelve all the other and Rose is charged with
at nine. He also tells them about the location of
Anne mcfall's body. Okay, so of all the victims exum
(01:00:14):
from Cromwell Street. Fred had also confessed to murdering Rena Charmaine,
and he claimed to know where Anne mcfall's body was buried,
but denied involvement in her murder.
Speaker 2 (01:00:30):
Interesting should say, yes, I don't think so she's pregnant.
Speaker 1 (01:00:34):
I know, Like, who else could it have been?
Speaker 4 (01:00:38):
Bud?
Speaker 2 (01:00:39):
I'm sorry, but I've seen your history.
Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
So he's transferred to Birmingham's Max security prison and is
put on a strict suicide watch. His cell is supposed
to be checked every fifteen minutes.
Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
Parro like, it's not I imagine checked every fifteen minutes.
Speaker 1 (01:01:17):
No, it's not.
Speaker 2 (01:01:20):
That's so funny. I actually have another case exactly like this.
Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
So after a year after the like not even a year,
I think it had been like six months, the suicide
watch had been kind of relaxed, and on January first,
nineteen ninety five, Fred had basically strangled himself. So he
had fashioned this garrat essentially from different things he had found,
(01:01:45):
including a blanket and prison laundry tags that he had stolen,
and so he carotted it, put this around his neck
and tied it off onto the door handle and just
kind of sunk to his knees and leaned into it.
A suicide note was found in his cell, and he
(01:02:06):
really drew his own gravestone that basically said, in loving
memory Fred West Rose West rest in peace where no
shadow falls, and perfect piece. He waits for Rose, his wife.
Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
He was like really into her, which I gotta see
is surprising because to me, he kind of struck me
as very selfish and self centered and narcissistic. I'm surprised
he liked her as much as he did.
Speaker 1 (01:02:35):
I think he liked her as much as he did
because she would go along with his fantasies, and also
she had her own sadistic fantasies like herself, So she
just fed into this lifestyle and they just both egged
each other on and were super accepting each other's behavior.
(01:03:00):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (01:03:01):
Interesting. Another thing I think about Rose is remember when
you said earlier that when she would like attack women
or push them outside their boundaries, she would always be
like like, oh, you're not a woman enough to take it.
Speaker 1 (01:03:16):
You're not a woman enough to take it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:03:18):
Do you think part of her sadistic mindset came from
what she endured as a child, And like instead of
being like in order to I guess handle what happened
to her, she almost like leaned into it, like, actually,
this is exciting, and that's how I'm going to get
past the trauma of it. Is like by getting into it, kind.
Speaker 1 (01:03:43):
Of feeding into it further. Just yeah, leaning into it completely.
I don't know. That's a great question. I feel like
the amount of depravity and like just this last story,
complete lack of morals or you know, care for your
own children. It just I don't know. I don't know
how you become that evil of a person.
Speaker 2 (01:04:04):
I truly can't get dropped my mind around it, and
it sounds like it was like their parents were bad,
and then they were bad, and then the whole thing
is depraved. It is beginning to end, absolutely awful.
Speaker 1 (01:04:23):
Yeah, and Rose is still alive and serving out her
sentence I guess in Birmingham as well, so she's still kicking.
It's probably old as hell now, gotta be.
Speaker 2 (01:04:43):
She's found guilty of ten counts of murder.
Speaker 1 (01:04:46):
Oh ten, So originally it was nine.
Speaker 2 (01:04:49):
And whole life tariff she would serve a whole life
tariff ensuring she would die in prison. So she was
sent us to life imprisonment and then they basically were
like you will never get out.
Speaker 1 (01:05:03):
Yeah, absolutely not your monster, an.
Speaker 2 (01:05:05):
Absolute horrific, horrific monster.
Speaker 1 (01:05:09):
They also believe that there's more victims of Fred, but
they've never been able to link them.
Speaker 2 (01:05:17):
Like like, what's like physical evidence because he killed.
Speaker 1 (01:05:19):
Himself exactly exactly. Wow.
Speaker 2 (01:05:22):
Wow, that's that's a horrific.
Speaker 1 (01:05:24):
The absolutely aft up case of Fred and Rose West, Yeah,
very difficult. If you guys want to watch that Netflix
documentary that I was talking about, it kind of delves
into it pretty deeply. It's called the True Story Behind
Fred and Rose West a British horror story and I
(01:05:45):
highly recommend it. It's difficult to make sure, Like I said,
you're like before, make sure you're in the right headspace
for this type of stuff. It does get very very
heavy and goes into details about the sexual abuse of
the kids.
Speaker 2 (01:05:57):
So well, thank you for doing the research because that
was rough. That was a rough one.
Speaker 1 (01:06:07):
Yeah, it's not fun. I mean, none of our cases
are really except for the heists. But I have a
good heist too. But on that note, if you guys
have any case corrections, any coffee shop recommendations or sweet shops,
or if you just want to say hi, hit us
up on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (01:06:26):
At scream dot and Dot Sugar Dot podcast on Facebook
at Scream and Sugar, True Crime, Coffee Hour, TikTok, Scream
and Sugar, Oh, Scream Dot and Dot Sugar, Gmail, Scream
and Sugar Reno at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1 (01:06:39):
Or some is the voicemail at eight six two one
eight five and until next.
Speaker 4 (01:06:45):
Time, stay spooky y'all. Bye bye.
Speaker 3 (01:07:25):
Bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye
bye Pecan Pie ever hooded, Snaky, Snooky Snecky
Speaker 4 (01:07:38):
T
Welcome back, everyone to another episode of Scream and Sugar
at the true crime podcast that dives into the darker
side of humanity while savoring a little sweetness on the side.
I'm your host, Candace and I'm Sahara and this is
going to be part two of Fred and Rose West.
(00:49):
What's up to her?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Hey, Candish, I'm good. I'm sodding your eyes.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
What is up? Just vibin, just vibe if you can't tell.
I'm a little sleepy because I got a puppy and
she is loco, so I'm up with her. Well, she
slept through the night last night, but usually around three am,
so I'm a real tired girl. Today.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Should posts a picture of her?
Speaker 1 (01:19):
I should a little opal opal may. She is a
German Shorthaired pointer mix and so cute, so cute. I'm
in love. So I have a new doctor doctor. Yeah,
she's the cutest baby. It's new with you. How was
your birthday? Your day of birth?
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Day of birth was great? Been having a great old time.
I'm also I'm also tired because I Anna Anastasia, who
was on the podcast early early on. She and I
went to Universal Studios.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Fun.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah, it was super fun and they have the horror
Halloween horror night things going on where's just really scary
haunted houses and scary vibes and all that stuff. It's
at night, and we went to that and it was
so cool, have fun, super blast. But now I have
to like make up all the time I missed at work.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Just in that lab I know, right, doing lab stuff.
Be in a labrat.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yeah, speaking of fun things. Today I brought Candice some
pie so good. Oh my god, my dad got me
a Peacan pie for my birthday from Western Village. You guys,
I ate almost the whole thing like two days, so
I've made can't just take the last part.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah, she's trying to force feed it to me right now.
But it's delicious.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
It's really good. So it's like surprisingly good.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
We can't buy.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
So that's your jam.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Thanks for sharing with me. Delicious, so sticky and sweet
and crawl chy crawln chi. Truly, I do love Western Village.
I feel like we go to Cafe Billini maybe once
every other month, but the little restaurant that they have
in there, it's pretty good. I love that steakhouse is good.
Never tried their pie, so Ela. This is the first
(03:08):
for me.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Hell yeah, brother, well.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Cool with that. I guess I will get back into
this case. When we left you last we were just
talking about how Charmain West was tragically murdered by Rose
while Fred West was in jail, and her body was
stashed in the cellar, not on the floorboards like I
(03:32):
had said last episode. So a little correction to that.
But yeah, so sad, super sad, and it just gets
worse from this point on. So once Fred does get
out of jail, he has to deal with the remains
(03:53):
of his stepdaughter Charmaine, and he dismembers her body and
up putting her in their new home twenty five Cromwell Street.
He buries her in the backyard.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Mm hm. A couple of months later, Rena shows up
and she's very worried about the girls. She's trying to
plead with Fred to give them to her so she
can take them back to Glasgow. Unfortunately, when she goes
to confront Fred, he strangles her to death.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Rena, Yes, so this is his first wife. Oh my gosh,
So she came to try to get the girls and
then he kills her exactly.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
What they believe happened is that Fred took her out
and they went and got drunk together, and then in
the back of his car, his forward popular he strangles
her to death in the back seat.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Do they think that they were hooking up or just arguing.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
I think they believe that he kind of brought her
out on the idea of that that they were just
going to talk about things, and that you know, she
was upset obviously about Charmaine and Anna Marie, and so
she goes out with him and then it just goes bad.
I feel like she probably probably got into an argument
(05:22):
or he just decided he needed to deal with her
so he could be.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
With Rose right, and probably to cover up the fact that, yeah,
she's one of the only ones who can say that
she wasn't like the girls weren't with her right right exactly.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
So when she's found, when they do find her body,
it's found with a length of metal tubing inside of
her remains, So I'm not too sure what that's all about.
But later it goes into detail about the possibility that
there was sexual assault prior to her murder. Oh, their
(05:59):
mo as we'll find out, is very very gnarly and
just freaking awful. She was also dismembered, and there were
bones missing from her body, like finger bones and toe bones,
which seems to be a trend in a lot of
(06:22):
the ruins that are founds so potentially kept as trophies. Gross.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Oh we actually when and I were in la we
visited the Museum of Death.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Oh cool out there.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
It was very, very fascinating, very cool spot.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
I've been to the one on New Orleans.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Oh you have okay?
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (06:41):
Did you?
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Also?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Did they have the necklaces with the fingers? No, there
was a couple of necklaces from like the Wild West
era where on the necklaces were fingers. They kept us trophies,
and they kept us trophies, and that's what that reminds
me of a lot. Absolutely, Did they ever find them
the fingers?
Speaker 1 (07:02):
No, that I know.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
I've now a lot of missing body parts in this world,
and I don't like it.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Where are the finger bones? Then? On January twenty ninth,
nineteen seventy two, so just a few months after, about
five months after Rena's murdered, Fred and Rose get married.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
And nothing brings you together like killing people.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Like right. The ceremony took place at the Gloucester Register Office,
and Fred's brother is the only one that attended again.
No wait, yes, sorry, no wait, because that had happened
with Rena's.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Well, I was gonna say that, so familiar.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
So Fred's brother John once again acted as the best man,
and no one else, no one else came to the wedding.
Several months later, Rose was pregnant with her second child,
so she said she had already had Heather and now
she had had her second child. And then a few
months later they move into the twenty five Crommell Street house.
So the remains, they bring Tremaine's remains to this new
(08:09):
house and bury here in the garden.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Okay, so they move again.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
They move again, so twenty five Crommell Street will be
the alleged the what they dubbed the House of Horrors
in this case, and they live here for a couple
of decades.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Okay, got it.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
So now it's a three story house. They rented it
at first, and then Fred was later able to purchase
it for about seven thousand pounds. To kind of make
the mortgage payments, they would rent out different rooms in
the house so they would have like a boarding house
essentially in the top story and then the second story
(08:47):
was where they lived, and then the main floor was
kind of like just the living area. So Fred is
able to kind of convert part of the ground floor
to where they have like a base, a wash basin,
and kitchen. That way, the lodgers upstairs stay upstairs and
then his family is separated from them on the ground
floor for their living activities. Later that year, June first
(09:13):
gives birth to their next child May June, and shortly
after this, she starts working as a sex worker in
the house.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
So he puts her to work.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
She is okay with it, apparently because allegedly she was
already doing that as she was working outside of that
bakery and engaging in sex work with construction workers nearby. Gotcha,
So she's totally open to the idea, not forced into
it at all, allegedly, And so she starts using this
(09:45):
room upstairs, and she advertises her services in a local magazine.
They sought a lot of clients through the West Indian
community in the area, and she also engaged in casual
sex with both male and female lodgers within their house.
So people that were just paying to live in one
(10:08):
of the rooms or letting one of the rooms. She
would also engage in sexual activities with them, but not
like as work, not as work. Right, she was bisexual,
so she like sought out women specifically, and a lot
of the female lodgers would recall later how kind of
creepy she was towards them, like to the point where
(10:31):
she was wearing like see through negliges around the house
to go talk to them. One girl was saying that
they were talking one time and Rose like spread her
legs and like full badge. Oh it acted like nothing
was weird, Like wasn't wearing panties and wild. It was
just like the female tenant was just like didn't say anything,
(10:52):
just didn't look. Basically was like I'm not like, I'm
not interested at all, right, she Rose. Also when having
sexual relationship with women, she would subject those sexual partners
with increasing levels of BDSM, so from like light choking
(11:15):
to slapping them to inserting large dildos into different orifices.
If the woman resisted or expressed any pain or fear,
Rose would get excited about it and say aren't you
a woman enough to take it?
Speaker 4 (11:32):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yikes, yeah, too many of these women. It became a parent.
Rose and Fred were regularly participating in threesomesh They obviously
took pleasure in getting women to go beyond their sexual limitations,
like what they had had as boundaries before. Like I said,
(11:56):
lots of bondage and dominant like dominatrix type of stuff.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Is like fine if your partner's into it and it's
all consensual. And it seems like they were pushing the
envelope quite a lot, which is not what BDSM.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
It's all no at all, not at all, It's all
about consent and boundaries. They would also take photographs and
Fred also a lot of the times when she would
have over clients for sex work, he had like a
baby monitor and hidden cameras in the rooms, So while
she was engaging in sex work, he was getting off
(12:33):
on the idea of her being pleasured by another man,
and was obviously recording all of this without these men's knowledge.
Oh yikes.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
I wonder if you tried to use it as like
blackmail later or something, or he could if he wanted.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
To, if he wanted to. I think it was they
just were.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
For them, it was just sexual fantasy, got it.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
So they dubbed it as Rosa's Room, this room where
she would engage in sex work. He also had like
a bunch of different peop holes throughout the room that
he could kind of walk up to and watch. Freaky. Yeah, yeah,
very creepy. She had a separate doorbell as well for.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Like her collars for.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Her different callers, so when the kids would hear this,
they would know to kind of be out of sight. Yikes.
Crazily enough, by nineteen seventy seven, her father and Fred
started to kind of make amends and they end up
opening a cafe together called The Green Lantern, which is also.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
A movie that's like a Marvel character.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
And then allegedly, once he found out that Rose was
a sex worker, he started coming over and paying her
for sex as well.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
I'm sorry her father, Wow, that's horror.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
During throughout like the course of all of this, so
within like ten years, she gave birth to eight different
children from different men, not necessarily just Fred, but Fred
accepted them all as his own. So all together they
had ten kids. Oh my gosh, in that one house
and that one house. Yeah, that's horrific, I know.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
And especially how they've we've known that they've been treating
these kids, I can't even imagine.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
So by the time the kids reached the age of seven,
they were all given different chores that they had to
perform within the house. They were not really allowed to
socialize outside of the house. They would go to school,
but a lot of the kids kind of had like
they were withdrawn obviously because abuse happening at the house.
(14:55):
If they said anything, Fred and Rose would threat in
them and basically tell them that you won't go back
to school or you'll be severely beaten, right she would.
Rose specifically took great joy in like doling out punishment
to the kids, but she would make sure not to
(15:16):
leave marks anywhere visible. Oh yikes, what a b word.
Two of the kids were reported to like run away
from home. One of them was Heather, Rose and Fred's
first daughter together, and another was her younger brother, Steven.
They would go stay with friends and then eventually kind
(15:39):
of end up returning home when they kind of wore
out their welcome. I had also said before when Fred
wasn't able to take care of the girls Anna, Marie
and Charmaine, he would put them in social services. They
kind of did the same thing with these kids. They
would be in and out of social services. So if
they weren't able to take care of them or if
(16:00):
like Fred would get in trouble because you would have
like bouts of trouble with the log from petty theft
to assault, they would just kind of be brought over
to social services kind of use them as like a
temporary care placement, and then they would ultimately give the
(16:21):
kids back to Fred and Rows, which I think is.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Just wild bonkers. Yeah, it's almost like they were using
them as like temporary babysitters.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Like right, it's so when they need to have a
break or whatever, they but like you're going to go
into social like you're going to go into care, which
is insane.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Those poor children.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
So this is a really rough part of it. To
sexual assault of a minor and incest, we're going to
kind of go into a little bit of detailed. I
don't want to go too far into it because it's
pretty rarely. But in September nineteen seventy two, when Anna
Marie was only eight years old, she was taken down
(17:05):
into the basement, forced to undress, and when she didn't
immediately start undressing, Rose ripped her clothes off and restrained
her before Fred, her dad, brutally raped her. Oh my god,
wild Rose is in the room encouraging him to do so.
(17:27):
Ough wow. After the rape, Rose brings Anna Marie into
the bathroom, hands her a towel, like a sanitary towel
like I mussu being a washcloth or white wipe, and
just tells her I'm sorry, but this happens to every girl.
It's it's a father's job, and don't worry, you don't
(17:48):
say anything to anybody. So she's ultimately explaining to Anna Marie,
an eight year old child, that is the job of
her father to sexually abuse her and then it's perfectly
and that she doesn't need to tell anyone about it.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
That's horrifying, and it sounds like those rumors of her
father m m. That's all the her were very very accurate.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
And they also go on to threaten her and say
they made very clear that it's going to continue happening
to her, like it's going to be a regular occurrence,
and that if she ever says anything to anyone, they
will beat her.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Oh my gosh, that poor girl.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Rose also sexually abused Anna Marie and would bind her
tow different furniture and rape her. They also force her
to do household chores while wearing like skimpy clothing, which
is just awful an eight year old. Yeah, Jesus Christ.
(18:49):
They also forced her into sex work as well, at
the age of sixteen, and they never like they told
her just to not tell the clients her age. I'm
assuming it's before from the age of thirteen. Sorry, from
the age of thirteen they told they forced Anna Marie
into sex.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Work, so they really just got her ready to go.
They groomed her for that life. Wow, let's come, do
you Was it the other kids as well or just
Anne Marie?
Speaker 1 (19:20):
So? Anna Marie has an entire book that kind of
recounts her life living with these monsters. And I had
already mentioned Charmaine from the age of three was sexually
abused by Fred, right, So I'm assuming it was all
of them, all of the girls at.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Least, yeah, because I'm like, maybe she specifically hated Anna
Marie because she wasn't hers she was Rena's daughter. Yeah,
but I think you're right. I would assume they're all
at the very least being abused by Fred, if not
both of them. She's still Fred's biological daughter. Fred doesn't
(20:01):
seem to have any he has no quest about that.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
So there's kind of this recurring theme with this couple too,
where they will hire on a nanny to help with
the kids and then try to convince them to be
in like a thrupple.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
And they were doing that before as well.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
They were doing that in the first episode. Yes, Fred
at least was doing that before with Rena, that's right,
and Anne who he ended up murdering. Wow, she was
eight months pregnant. So October nineteen seventy two, Fred and
(20:41):
Rose hire Carolyn Owens, who is a seventeen year old
and they have her start nanny for the kids. Fred
and Rose had picked her up on a secluded road
as she was hitchhiking from her boyfriend's house home. Learning
that Carolyn didn't like her stepfather and was looking for
a job, Fred and Rose offered her part time employment
(21:03):
as a nanny and also promised her a room essentially
while she was watching the kids. They also promised that
she would be driven home each Tuesday so she could
go and visit her boyfriend. So a couple days later
she moves in. She shares a room with Anna Marie,
the West's daughter, and Caroline immediately realizes that Anna Marie
(21:27):
is very much withdrawn and just kind of has no
real emotions. She's not talking to Carolyn. She's just very
don't very much like don't talk to me, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Stand off as you would be traumatized.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Oh great, here's another person that's here to abuse me. Right,
So she rose has told Carolyn that the gentleman callers
that were coming over were coming over for a massage
and that she was a messuse, uh, which Carolyn called
bs on pretty quick.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Yeah. Fred also told Carolyn for some reason, that he
was very skilled at giving abortions and that if she
ever needed the service, he would be willing to perform
here for what. He would also talk to her about
like these very vulgar scenarios, and he would tell her
all about like their sexual escapades and how they were
(22:29):
really into just BDSM and if she ever heard any noises,
that's what's going on that kind of thing, and if
she ever wanted to join in just to let them know.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Grow.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Yeah, this is like the first week she's living there,
and just like I would have'm like, okay, I gotta
go by my stepdad sucks, but this is worse, no kidding.
(23:12):
She so she starts to get these sexual advances from
both Fred and Rose, and she's like, Okay, I'm not
into this. I'm going to go home. They allegedly let
her leave the house when she goes to hitchhike back
to her the little town ship that she's from, and
(23:32):
they wanted to have sex with her. So they follow
her and pick her up, knock her over the head,
bring her back to the house, brutally rape her for
several hours, and she decides to this is a thing
like a recurring theme in people that survive these sort
(23:55):
of like assaults. They apologize for their conduct and tell
her that they're going to drive her home, and so
they are going to like a laundromat. And once they
pull up and stop, Carolyn's like being really friendly with him, like, Oh,
don't worry about it. It's fine, it's fine. I totally understand.
(24:19):
She hops out and says okay, bye, and just like
books it sorry.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
I didn't even hear it. I want so she got away.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
So she got away.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Good for her. I feel like she did what she
had to do to get out of that situation. It's like,
do you remember that case. It got really famous recently
Rodney a Pulko case where he was like on the
dating show, the TV show. Yeah, and the girl who
finally got him, like who finally survived? She used was
(24:51):
it like reverse psychology.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Where she said it's okay baby? Oh?
Speaker 2 (24:55):
She was like, Hey, would it be okay if you
didn't tell anybody that this happened? I would like, like
people might look bad on me about it. And for him,
he was like, oh, well, she's embarrassed and she's not
going to tell anybody, and it like totally worked, and
that's kind of I feel like the only way out
of these situations is to try to play Kate.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
You're right, exactly right, right. There's also like people that
I remember. There's there's one scenario what I heard of
where it was someone's aunt and she was in the
kitchen and this dude was like he broken and she
just told him to get an effing job, and she
just started berating him and he and I was like,
I love that.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Tell me that's like not some New York mom, like
New York and get.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Up in my house, get a job. It cracks me
up so hard.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
It's a guy, right, all right, I'm out here. I
don't know.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Leaves, she gets back home, she immediately reports the situation
to her mom, who takes her to the police, and
they arrest and Rose and they're charged with assault and
decent assault and actual bodily harm and rape. But during
the court case, the judge is just like essentially lets
(26:17):
the walk free and says, oh, it was just like
a a misunderstanding, misunderstanding, and that's kind of how Fred
and Rose just split this around on Carolyn, and so
all of the charges are dropped and they're able to
walk out of the courthouse that day. Oh my god,
many times does this have to happen? I mean, this
(26:39):
is in the seventies, but it's just like it still
hasn't changed. I feel like, like no one ever she said,
she said, And that's what they always say. So I
think this just further like aids and Fred and Rose
wanting to continue on with this behavior. So they're like, well,
we can get away with it. Yeah, nothing to haven't
gotten caught for Charmaine or Arena or Anne. So and
(27:01):
now Carolyn literally escaped, but now they realize they can't.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Can't let them go.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Their victims go.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah, like even if we think that they're not going
to tell clearly they're going to tell.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
I feel like the justice system had that chance, I know,
and they blew it.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Not even three months later after this assault trial, Fred
and Rose killed their first known victim together, and that
is nineteen year old Linda Goth, who was dating one
of their male like their male lodgers at the time,
so one of the tenants that they had, so she
(27:41):
would come over to the house regularly she would interact
with Fred and Rose. So on the nineteenth she moved
into the house on Cromwell Street. The next day, Fred
and Rose told the other tenants that they had kicked
her out for being rude and not following the rules.
(28:03):
Linda's mom actually goes over to the house after a
couple of weeks that go by and Linda hasn't shown up.
We're called or written, and so her mom is talking
to Rose at the front door and she's like, Hi,
have you seen my daughter? I know that she was
staying here, and Rose at first acts like she doesn't
(28:26):
even know who she's talking about. Linda's mom looks on
the clothesline and sees some of Linda's clothes are hanging
off of it. Oh my god. Also Rose is wearing
Linda's slippers in like a robe, and so she almost
(28:47):
immediately is like, my daughter's gone, Like she just had
that good feeling. Mothers usually no, and when she goes
to the police about it, it's just they're like, she's
probably just a run away. She's nineteen, she probably just
left skipped town. And this is repeated over and over
(29:07):
again for these women that most of them don't have
people come look for them. But Linda's mom definitely like
had this gut feeling like, Okay, what did you do
to my daughter?
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Right, It's weird that her she said that she was
dating one of the men that was there. It's weird
that he didn't say where is she?
Speaker 1 (29:23):
No? I agree. I think that Fred and Rose were
just masters of manipulation. So they had told this guy like, oh, yeah,
we told her to leave and so she's not coming
back here, and he was like, well, I guess I
don't know, crazy, I don't know. Later, when Linda's body
(29:44):
is found, it's also dismembered. The jaw bone, her mandible
is completely wrapped and like an adhesive surgical tape to
silence her, and there are two small plastic tubes running
into her nasal cavity to help her breathe, because they
had completely tried to shut her up, so she was bound, gagged,
(30:10):
and then given to tubes so she could breathe. Oh
my god. There was also large sections of string and
knotted fabric found with her remains, and what investigators think
happened is that she was likely suspended from wooden beams
(30:31):
in the cellar, which later Fred would admit he had
basically turned this cellar into a torture chamber. Yikes, dude,
that poor girl. She likely died of strangulation. She was
also missing five cervical vertebras, so her neck vertebrae, buttella,
(30:54):
and finger bones were missing, and she was buried in
a pit underneath the garage.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
It's like they kill these women and then they just
take a random pieces that are like small and easily served.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
That's crazy.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
So where are they putting these little do you think
they're eating? They could be eating them the bones, just
the whole, because they're small enough.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
The vertebrae would be more difficult to eat, and the
patilla is like.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
They put it in a smoothie.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
I don't know, yes, if they pulverized it and made
it into a paste or a powder that make it
into a paste and add it to soups or something.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Right, because I'm like, else would you get rid of it?
Because it's something clearly that it is important enough to
you that you would take it.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
I think he potentially had a separate spot for all
of his trophies, is what I'm thinking, since they didn't
find them ever, like maybe there was a second location.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Think he was taking them somewhere.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
And because Rina's body is buried out into a field
along with Anne, so they're both buried in a field,
Charmaine and Linda's bodies were kept on the property grounds.
So I'm wondering if maybe he had a separate spot
for all of his trophies because he did the dismemberment.
(32:23):
From what we can tell of all the victims, weird
like Rose with Aiden the killing, but it seems like
Fred did more of the dirty work, got it. Five
(32:52):
more victims were murdered and buried in the cellar at
Cromwell Street between November nineteen seventy three and April nineteen
seventy five. Fifteen year old Caroline Cooper, who was abducted
November tenth, nineteen seventy three, she was abducted. After spending
the night like at a movie with her boyfriend, she
went to catch a bus and then disappeared. In what
(33:17):
they think happened is Fred and Rose cruise By saw
her standing here alone and convinced her that they would
give her a ride.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Oh poor girl.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
She was also found later with surgical tape around her mouth,
tubes in her nose, and a braided cloth that was
used to suspend her from the ceiling. Over the next
seventeen months, there were four more victims between the ages
of fifteen and twenty one. They all were basically picked
(33:48):
up in the same way. Fred and Rose would see
them along the road, they would pick them up. They vanished.
People had no idea where they went, and the police
basically kept with that story of oh maybe the runaways,
maybe they just left town. We don't know, there's a
huge old Yeah, there's no proof otherwise, right, yeah. In
(34:13):
nineteen seventy five, eighteen year old Wannita Mott is murdered
by Fred and Rose West. He decides now that he's
going to put concrete over the entire floor of the cellar.
After he dismembers and buries her, and then he converts
that section of the house into a bedroom for his kids.
(34:34):
Oh so for the next three years the murder stop.
And we're not really sure if Fred kept murdering girls
and women without rows and outside of the house, but
from what they know, it stopped at the house.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
That's interesting.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Do they know why not? Sure? Maybe they thought that
there's some heat coming down on them a little bit,
because I'm surprised.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Rose also wasn't like Jonesen.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
I'm sure she was so. Then in May of nineteen
seventy eight, and this is one of those ones where
they're not sure if Rose participated in this murder and rape,
but they know that she knew about it. Fred murdered
eighteen year old Shirley Robinson, who was a tenant at
(35:30):
the house. So she had met Fred at the Green
Lantern Cafe, the business that he owned with Rose's father,
and she almost immediately moved into the house. She was
heavily pregnant at the time of her murder, and it
was likely that she was carrying Fred's child. Oh my god,
(35:57):
be okay.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
Okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Either he.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Has no issues killing pregnant woman.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
He doesn't, and Rose at first was bragging about it
to other people, and then she started to resent her
for it.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Oh, I see, like she was bragging about this girl
caring Fred's baby, and then she was like she was
like actually kind of jelly.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Because of Rose's resentment for surely it said that she
had Fred kill her. He convinced or she convinced Fred
to kill her.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
I wonder if he also didn't want her carrying his kid.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
I don't think he really cares. Yeah, I don't think
he has any qualms with it because Anne like his
first baby mama after Rena or during his marriage Serena. Yeah,
I think he was just I don't know. I don't know.
He had no, no qualms, no resentment. He her dismembers
(37:01):
her body. She was not found with anything restraining her,
so no restraints were found on her body, and the
fetus had been removed, and Charley also had several bones
missing again found Yeah, so put separately.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
From her, hopefully postmortem.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
I would assume so. But I think they didn't know.
There was no there was no boundaries for these two psychopaths.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
No kidding.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
So right after Shirley's murdered, Rose goes and tries to
claim maternity benefits under Shirley's name at Social Services, they
deny her.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
That should be a huge red bag, right, gosh right?
Speaker 1 (37:54):
When again, when they were like asked about where Shirley went,
Fred and Rose would just tell people that she went
back to West Germany to live with her family, with
her dad specifically. And then their final murder that definitely
was sexually motivated, happened August fifth, nineteen seventy nine. Alison Chambers,
(38:16):
who was a sixteen year old runaway from a local
children's home, went to live and work for the West
sas a nanny. She's believed to have been living within
the house for a couple of weeks. Rose promised her
that she was going to live on a peaceful farm essentially,
(38:37):
and that Fred and Rose were just waiting to move
to this idyllic country farm.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Of like when parents tell their children that's.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
The happy yeah, or kiddie went yeah, or the fish
I know, it's so sad. She was also buried in
the garden at Cromwell Street, close to the bathroom mall,
and she was more than likely dismembered, but her skeleton
was kind of already disrupted when investigators found her body. Gotcha,
(39:16):
So what kind of cracked this whole case open? Is
the disappearance of Heather West. So this is Fred and
Rose's first child. She had been showing outward signs of
abuse and distress, like psychological distress. She after like a
(39:40):
pe class. She wouldn't go into the showers afterwards like
you're supposed to, and the gym teacher was basically like
or the pee teacher was like, you need to take
a shower, and it's open, like you don't have a
private stall for your showers. But a lot of the costmates.
When she did finally disrobe, notice that she had scars
(40:02):
and bruises all over her body, and they were all
in different various stages of healings, so she would have
some purple and black ones and some yellow ones as well.
When they asked her about these bruises and scars, she
would just explain them away with I've got in fights
with my siblings. Oh, so she was lying about it,
(40:25):
trying to cover them up because like she had probably
already learned that if you told what was happening to you,
it would make it worse. It would make it worse exactly.
So Heather drops out in the summer of nineteen eighty
six and starts applying for different jobs, trying to get
away from Fred and Rose. She is hired on at
(40:48):
a holiday camp and I don't even know how to
pronounce that word parkway or quai quaw. So she starts
applying for all these jobs. She ends up getting hired
on at this holiday camp as a cleaner, and she
(41:10):
is so excited. But then by the next year, when
she's supposed to start this job, she receives a call
and they essentially told her that she's no longer needed.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Oh no, was it just a coincidence?
Speaker 1 (41:28):
I believe so. So she's just devastated by this, and
that night, like her whole family, like all the other
siblings claimed that they hurt her, like sobbing profusely all
through the night, just because she's absolutely devastated. She thought
she was finally gonna have her ticket away from these monsters,
(41:49):
and yeah, that's horrible.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
So that poor girl.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
The following morning, on June nineteenth, she is at the house.
Everyone says that she's kind of like, you know, a
little anxious. But when the rest of the siblings come
home from school that day. Heather's nowhere to be found.
And what Fred and Rose tell her brothers and sisters
(42:21):
is that she actually there was a mistake and she's
actually heading to this holiday camp for work for the summer.
But that's not what happened at all, of course not.
Heather was murdered that morning by Fred. I guess what
(42:43):
happened is that they had gotten into an argument and
Fred kind of just went into a fit of rage
and strangled her to get death in the kitchen. Oh
he then dismembers her body and buries it in the
garden with the rest of his victims. And then after
this he keeps telling the kids like years past after this,
(43:03):
and he would keep telling like her brothers and sisters,
Oh yeah, like I saw her the other day. She's
working as a sex worker now, but she looks good.
What the fuck? So they're like, yeah, have you They
like the kids would question their parents. They'd be like,
where's Heather, Like have you heard her? Heard about her?
Like what's going on with her? Like we miss her?
And yeah, there's always like a different story, like whether
(43:25):
she was at the summer camp again or now she's
sex like she's a sex worker in the nearby town,
and it was just like just consistent, just consistent. And
then then it turned and the kids kind of like
caught on, and when they would misbehave, Fred would jokingly
(43:46):
tell them, you better quit acting up or you're gonna
end up like Heather and get buried in the backyard.
These little kids, Oh my god, I've been threatened them.
A story goes from oh, she's doing well too, Nope,
she's buried in the backyard actually.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
And the worst part is, like I feel like, as
the child, you don't even know which one's the correct.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
Story, right, And so this finally finally so ridiculous to
me six years later, in May of nineteen ninety two.
So six years after, how there's murder. Louise, who is
Fred and Rose's thirteen year old daughter, is raped by Fred.
(44:35):
Her siblings hear her screaming and partially strangled. When Rose
gets home, Louise tells her mom what happened, and Rose says, well,
you asked for it. What.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
I'm surprised he waited till she was thirteen, to be honest.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
Right. Finally, in on August fourth of that year, one
of the kids had like made a friend and this
friend's mom had kind of heard about what was going
on at the house because the kids had been talking
and like what they confided in their new friend, and
(45:18):
the mom found out about it and went straight to
the police and was like, you need to investigate this family.
And August sixth, so two days later, the police obtained
a search warrant for the West House and they go
in on the pretext of looking for stolen property, which
Fred is already known to do petty theft, and they
(45:39):
find they find ninety nine different pornographic movies, homemade and
the store bought. I'm also assuming that Louise was forced
into sex work at this age as well, because that's
when Anna Marie was forced into sex work, right, I'm
assuming how they're so. Louis makes this a full statement
(46:04):
to the police, telling them all about her father and
mother's abuse and that had begun at eleven, so they
waited a little bit longer for this poor girl. Oh
my god. The next day, all of the kids are
brought into foster care, so there's like, nope, time to go.
(46:24):
They're medically examined and there's clear evidence of sexual and
physical abuse. The kids also tell the police that their
mom was the one, so Rose is the one that
inflicted most of the abuse. And Fred would frequently just
tell them like, well, you shouldn't act up or you're
(46:46):
gonna end up like Heather and be buried into the patio.
And so the police are like, Okay, where's Heather. What
happened to your daughter? They try to spend the yarn
of oh, she's she's you know, she's a she's working
in another town over and then finally Fred cracks and
he tells the investigators, actually, no, she is buried in
(47:10):
my backyard. You see why it took me so long
(47:30):
to do this case. It is just awful.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
It's he I wonder what made him crack, Like it
was just like the time.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
I think, Yeah, I think he was just like there's
so much evidence like piling up, Like I don't know
that they were able to find videos of his daughter's
rapes because I'm assuming they filmed them all. Yeah, probably, huh.
But they also found like photographs of these missing women,
(48:00):
So some of the victims of Fred and Rose West,
they were like straight up polaroids of them. Wow. Yeah,
I'm glad he just gave up. That's crazy too. So
when the police get this search warrant, they initially aren't
(48:20):
finding any remains in the backyard and Fred kind of
led them to the wrong spot. They bring him in
to kind of help out, like with pointing out where
the bodies are buried, and they think at this point
that it's just Heather, right, They think it's just Heather
at this point, So they start digging and he's like,
you're not gonna find anything over there, And I think
(48:41):
he's trying to move them away from where the other
bodies are buried because he could potentially just get away
with like a wrongful death or like a manslaughter charge
for his daughter, saying that there was an accident, but obviously,
if there's more than one body in your backyard, guess
what likely not an accident. They also brought up that
(49:07):
Rena and Charmaine had disappeared in nineteen seventy one. There
was no missing person report ever filed, so there was
never an inquiry into these two individuals. So at this
point they received the search warrant and they completely barricade
off access to the house in the back garden. Reporters
(49:32):
start showing up because they catch wind of what's going on.
And people start building scaffolding their house. Yeah, and they're
on the So neighbors start building scaffolding and then charging
reporters money to go through their house and go up
into the scaffolding to look over and watch. Like this
(49:56):
whole excavation hustlers, because first they just find the one body.
They find what they believe is Heather West remains. Then
Fred makes like a crack about, oh did you see
that over there too, one of the investigators, and they
like they totally missed it. There's a bone right there.
(50:16):
There's another bone right there sticking up out of the ground.
Like he's just amused the fact that they're not.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
They didn't even see it.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
Yeah, not even noticing that there's more than one body
buried there. And of course he was like, Okay, well,
obviously we need to excavate further in this area.
Speaker 2 (50:36):
I wonder he wanted to get caught. Maybe I just
don't get it.
Speaker 1 (50:41):
I think he just thought he was so smart and
that he had gotten away with this for twenty years,
right plaster minus some. Over and over again. When he
would be questioned about it, Fred would deny the fact
that Rose was involved anyway. He would say, no, no, no,
it's all me. Rose had nothing to do with it.
(51:04):
I killed Heather, I killed Charmaine, I killed like He
literally just pointed all of the blame on himself and
tried to make sure that Rose was kept out of it.
Speaker 2 (51:18):
What are romantic?
Speaker 1 (51:19):
I know, right, So they find a femur protruding out
of the area that Fred had told police not to
look in, like, he told him, no, you don't need
to look over there, and there's nothing over there. This
is where Heather's buried over here, don't go over there.
And they were just like, we're gonna have to tear
up this entire backyard. Yeah, clearly. So they find a
(51:42):
jumble of a bunch of different human remains and they
are taken to the police headquarters where it is a
young woman with one kneecap and several flangies missing, so
that would be Linda. Linda. They also found fingernails and
(52:05):
it looked like the fingernails had been pulled off of
the body. Wall still alive. Oh god, yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:14):
So that was part of their torture.
Speaker 1 (52:15):
That was part of their means of torture. Yeah, oh
my god. And the next set of remains that they
had found several hours later, they were able to identify
with dental records as being Heather West, so that Linda
and now they had Heather. Heather is the one that
was missing her fingernails, so she had been rudely tortured before.
Speaker 2 (52:37):
I thought he just strangled her. And during an argument,
useful of us.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
Is wow you have heard Oh yeah, yeah, he just
strangled her and fit a rage and that was it. Nope,
he probably us the same memo that he did on
all the other women.
Speaker 2 (52:53):
And girls tortured her. Wow, what a sick dude.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
That night, at are they identify Howther's remains, they tell
Fred we found another femur a third, so that's at
least two people. So then he goes he's brought back
to Cromwell Street and he shows two more locations, one
of Shirley Robinson and he tells them basically she was
(53:25):
a lesbian, but she's also pregnant with my child, which
I'm just like, you're such a what a freak. You know.
The other the other side of remains were never identified.
It's like there was like another He didn't know exactly
who this second woman was. He said it was just
(53:46):
one of Shirley's friends, is what he said. But I
think he was just referring to the fact that they
were close together as far as their grave site goes
with the site, yeah, Shirley's friend.
Speaker 2 (53:58):
So to this day still don't know where.
Speaker 1 (54:01):
They end up finding out who all of the different
victims are, but at this point he just doesn't know
who it is. He doesn't remember, Wow, I should tell
you something. So after these remains are found, they're like, Okay,
we need to search inside, outside, and.
Speaker 2 (54:25):
Maybe out of that cement in the cellar.
Speaker 1 (54:29):
Yeah. Well, and then they start like questioning him, like
where's Rena, Where's Charmaine? Where's Rena? Because you told us
that they're in Glasgow, but no one's heard from them
since nineteen seventy one and we don't know where they are.
There's been no trace of them, what happened to them?
And he he just he doesn't say anything. He just
(54:53):
keeps quiet at first, and then eventually there's a note
that he hands to his lawyer that says like, I,
Frederick West, authorize my solicitor or my lawyer, Howard Ogden,
to advise Superintendent Bennett that I wish to admit a
further approximate nine killings, expressly Charmaine, Rina, Linda, Goth and
(55:17):
others to be identified. Wow, so he admits to Charmaine's murder,
but they're like, you were in jail at the time
of Like once they figure out like the timeline, the
timeline of her death, they're like, there, you weren't. You
were in jail, you couldn't have killed her. Anyway, After
he's questioned a little bit more, he starts talking about, oh, yeah,
(55:40):
there's bodies in the house too. So there are five
bodies buried in the cellar and a six body beneath
the ground floor bathroom, and he tells investigators that most
of them had been hitchhikers or girls he had picked
up from bus stops, and he claims that all of
(56:03):
these six girls were killed because they had threatened to
tell on Rose or tell Rows of his infidelity. So
they're basically like, well, we slept together and now I'm
going to go tell your wife. So that's why he
killed him, which that's not why he killed him. No.
(56:26):
Fred also says that the dismemberment of the bodies just
made it easier to bury the remains, so he's like, yeah,
He didn't even like look it at as like a
weird thing to do. He was just very much like, yeah,
just like so I could fit him better in a hole. Yeah,
he's like, that's just a solution to a problem, completely
detached from reality, kidding. From March fifth to March eighth,
(56:49):
police find an additional six bodies. Each of them had
been extensively mutilated, so dismembered, missing bones again, so a
lot of the flangies and toebones are missing. And it
was very evident that all these women were subjected to
(57:11):
severe torture and sexual abuse. We're just gonna say rape
because I feel like sexual abuse isn't enough of a
I don't know, it just makes it sound like.
Speaker 2 (57:24):
It doesn't sound as intense as it actually was.
Speaker 1 (57:27):
Yeah, for them exactly in this cellar grave mass grave
that they find, they find the serrated knife that he
had used to dismember them. He used to like he
used a serrated knife like a bread knife to dismember
the bodies. Oh my gosh. And yeah, and most of
(57:52):
them had, like I said that, the tape around their
mouths so they couldn't speak or yell, and then tubes
and started into the noses so that they could breathe.
Speaker 2 (58:01):
Oh my gosh, absolutely horrific.
Speaker 1 (58:05):
Honestly, he completely refuses to tell them the whereabouts of
the missing bones. By the way, he never gives that
up to investigators.
Speaker 2 (58:16):
Gotta go, I cannot.
Speaker 1 (58:19):
Rose is finally arrested April twentieth, nineteen ninety four, and
she is brought in on charges of raping an eleven
year old girl and assault of an eight year old boy.
Both of these charges are from the nineteen seventies, so
why is she finally coming in for these? Now?
Speaker 2 (58:41):
What? What?
Speaker 1 (58:44):
She refuses bail and she is taken and held at
the maximum security wing. She's questioned more about the murders,
in particular Heather's and Linda's, and on the twenty fifth
of April, she's formally charged with Linda gossp murder. By
May six, Fred and Rose are both charged with five
(59:06):
counts of murder, and Rose keeps stating I'm innocent, which, no,
you're not.
Speaker 2 (59:12):
Me, couldn't be.
Speaker 1 (59:16):
She repeats this over and over again, like vehemently, that
she was innocent through the whole thing and had no
idea that Fred was doing this, just like you got
caught in the case of Caroline Owens, Like you should
that should have just stopped it there.
Speaker 2 (59:33):
No kidding.
Speaker 1 (59:34):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (59:36):
I wonder if they had like talked about it before
and they're like, hey, if you can get me off,
like I'll make sure I bust you out of prison
or something.
Speaker 1 (59:43):
Yeah, still take care of the kids.
Speaker 2 (59:44):
Or yeah whatever. The kids are better off so far
away from you freaking weirdos.
Speaker 1 (59:49):
Right, So they are charged with the murders. Friend charged
with twelve all the other and Rose is charged with
at nine. He also tells them about the location of
Anne mcfall's body. Okay, so of all the victims exum
(01:00:14):
from Cromwell Street. Fred had also confessed to murdering Rena Charmaine,
and he claimed to know where Anne mcfall's body was buried,
but denied involvement in her murder.
Speaker 2 (01:00:30):
Interesting should say, yes, I don't think so she's pregnant.
Speaker 1 (01:00:34):
I know, Like, who else could it have been?
Speaker 4 (01:00:38):
Bud?
Speaker 2 (01:00:39):
I'm sorry, but I've seen your history.
Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
So he's transferred to Birmingham's Max security prison and is
put on a strict suicide watch. His cell is supposed
to be checked every fifteen minutes.
Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
Parro like, it's not I imagine checked every fifteen minutes.
Speaker 1 (01:01:17):
No, it's not.
Speaker 2 (01:01:20):
That's so funny. I actually have another case exactly like this.
Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
So after a year after the like not even a year,
I think it had been like six months, the suicide
watch had been kind of relaxed, and on January first,
nineteen ninety five, Fred had basically strangled himself. So he
had fashioned this garrat essentially from different things he had found,
(01:01:45):
including a blanket and prison laundry tags that he had stolen,
and so he carotted it, put this around his neck
and tied it off onto the door handle and just
kind of sunk to his knees and leaned into it.
A suicide note was found in his cell, and he
(01:02:06):
really drew his own gravestone that basically said, in loving
memory Fred West Rose West rest in peace where no
shadow falls, and perfect piece. He waits for Rose, his wife.
Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
He was like really into her, which I gotta see
is surprising because to me, he kind of struck me
as very selfish and self centered and narcissistic. I'm surprised
he liked her as much as he did.
Speaker 1 (01:02:35):
I think he liked her as much as he did
because she would go along with his fantasies, and also
she had her own sadistic fantasies like herself, So she
just fed into this lifestyle and they just both egged
each other on and were super accepting each other's behavior.
(01:03:00):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (01:03:01):
Interesting. Another thing I think about Rose is remember when
you said earlier that when she would like attack women
or push them outside their boundaries, she would always be
like like, oh, you're not a woman enough to take it.
Speaker 1 (01:03:16):
You're not a woman enough to take it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:03:18):
Do you think part of her sadistic mindset came from
what she endured as a child, And like instead of
being like in order to I guess handle what happened
to her, she almost like leaned into it, like, actually,
this is exciting, and that's how I'm going to get
past the trauma of it. Is like by getting into it, kind.
Speaker 1 (01:03:43):
Of feeding into it further. Just yeah, leaning into it completely.
I don't know. That's a great question. I feel like
the amount of depravity and like just this last story,
complete lack of morals or you know, care for your
own children. It just I don't know. I don't know
how you become that evil of a person.
Speaker 2 (01:04:04):
I truly can't get dropped my mind around it, and
it sounds like it was like their parents were bad,
and then they were bad, and then the whole thing
is depraved. It is beginning to end, absolutely awful.
Speaker 1 (01:04:23):
Yeah, and Rose is still alive and serving out her
sentence I guess in Birmingham as well, so she's still kicking.
It's probably old as hell now, gotta be.
Speaker 2 (01:04:43):
She's found guilty of ten counts of murder.
Speaker 1 (01:04:46):
Oh ten, So originally it was nine.
Speaker 2 (01:04:49):
And whole life tariff she would serve a whole life
tariff ensuring she would die in prison. So she was
sent us to life imprisonment and then they basically were
like you will never get out.
Speaker 1 (01:05:03):
Yeah, absolutely not your monster, an.
Speaker 2 (01:05:05):
Absolute horrific, horrific monster.
Speaker 1 (01:05:09):
They also believe that there's more victims of Fred, but
they've never been able to link them.
Speaker 2 (01:05:17):
Like like, what's like physical evidence because he killed.
Speaker 1 (01:05:19):
Himself exactly exactly. Wow.
Speaker 2 (01:05:22):
Wow, that's that's a horrific.
Speaker 1 (01:05:24):
The absolutely aft up case of Fred and Rose West, Yeah,
very difficult. If you guys want to watch that Netflix
documentary that I was talking about, it kind of delves
into it pretty deeply. It's called the True Story Behind
Fred and Rose West a British horror story and I
(01:05:45):
highly recommend it. It's difficult to make sure, Like I said,
you're like before, make sure you're in the right headspace
for this type of stuff. It does get very very
heavy and goes into details about the sexual abuse of
the kids.
Speaker 2 (01:05:57):
So well, thank you for doing the research because that
was rough. That was a rough one.
Speaker 1 (01:06:07):
Yeah, it's not fun. I mean, none of our cases
are really except for the heists. But I have a
good heist too. But on that note, if you guys
have any case corrections, any coffee shop recommendations or sweet shops,
or if you just want to say hi, hit us
up on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (01:06:26):
At scream dot and Dot Sugar Dot podcast on Facebook
at Scream and Sugar, True Crime, Coffee Hour, TikTok, Scream
and Sugar, Oh, Scream Dot and Dot Sugar, Gmail, Scream
and Sugar Reno at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1 (01:06:39):
Or some is the voicemail at eight six two one
eight five and until next.
Speaker 4 (01:06:45):
Time, stay spooky y'all. Bye bye.
Speaker 3 (01:07:25):
Bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye
bye Pecan Pie ever hooded, Snaky, Snooky Snecky
Speaker 4 (01:07:38):
T
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