February 18, 2025 • 48 mins
Beth, now in her late 50s, has endured a lifetime of hardship, including physical, emotional, and sexual abuse, as well as struggles with addiction. At 34, she was incarcerated and spent approximately five years on death row. Though her sentence was later commuted, she now serves life without parole.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
We'd like to acknowledge for our listeners just upfront that
what you will hear from individual incarcerated women throughout the
episode you may find to be emotionally charged and even disturbing,
So we just want to acknowledge that and make you
aware of that. Furthermore, something that listeners probably don't realize
(00:22):
is that all of our individual conversations with each woman
was recorded inside a maximum security prison, the State Correctional
Institution SCI Munsey in Pennsylvania here in the United States.
So the noise, there's any chatter, anything in the background.
(00:44):
For our listeners just to understand that we actually recorded
inside a prison where the day goes on. The women,
the officers, the staff, they all have their jobs. Just
because we're there, it doesn't stop or everything becomes quiet.
So if you do, as listeners here any background noise,
please understand that is part of being inside a prison.
(01:18):
Hello everyone, and thank you for tuning into our podcast
Self Identities Conversations with Convicted Women. My name is doctor
Katherine Whiteley, and I'm a feminist criminologist. Today I'm visiting
SCI Munci, a state correctional facility for women in Pennsylvania
(01:39):
in the United States and joining me today is Beth.
Welcome Beth, thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
It's good to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Yeah, it is great to see you. We haven't physically
met before, We've only had one meeting online, so this
is very new for both of us to get to
know each other.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, so I'm looking forward to mitel he Beth, would
you be able to share with our listeners about your
childhood if you could think back as far as you
possibly can, and yes, share this a little bit about
your childhood. You're growing up.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
It necessarily wasn't the best of childhood. It could have
been worse. But like, I never knew my father, so
my mom lived, we lived with my great grandparents, so
that's where my mom used to go out a lot.
So I was really attached to them. And then when
I was like in i'd say first grade, no, second grade,
(02:38):
she married again. So my stepfather was like the only
father that I knew. But at first that was okay,
but that became a very very tumultuous time with him.
There was a lot of verbal abuse, there was some
physical abuse, more for my brother than for me. But uh,
(03:04):
it just didn't it didn't make for the best of
the best of times, it was a constant, you know,
something was going on. The littlest thing could set them off,
and you know, my mom she just didn't get it.
She didn't intervene. So it was kind of like you're
(03:26):
kind of on your own where that was concerned. But
I mean, I don't want to act like that was
all that bad, because there were good times through there.
But I distinctly remember like the bad times more than
anything else because I think it shaped what I the
choices that I ended up making as I was growing up.
(03:50):
You know, like when I was twelve, a neighborhood boy
sexually assaulted me, and when I told my parents about it,
they blame me for it. So at that time, I
was thinking, you know, you know, nobody really cares what's
going on. And it kind of shaped like I found
(04:12):
myself in any relationship as I progressed through the years,
like they were all bad, they were all abusive, because
that's anything that felt normal. And I think I can
pinpoint my turning point when I just really didn't care,
Like I started smoking some marijuana like when I was twelve,
(04:32):
and cigarettes and just you know, drinking and like doing
it all. And then when I was seventeen and I
got pregnant and I was planning on going away to
have it because I didn't believe in abortion at you
know or anything like that. And my friend told me
(04:53):
call my parents in total what I was going to do.
So they showed up at school. You know, I'm coming
out of class and nurstand and I'm like, ah, you know,
and right away it was like nope, nope, nope, Like
they talked to the boy and they were all on
the same page, but me so and I didn't know
(05:14):
what else to do. So I just you know, that
was like the worst thing to me that happened was
happened to do that, And they had to like put
me to sleep to do it because I freaked out beforehand.
I was like I couldn't do it, and like I
had myself convinced. I didn't do it until I was
(05:35):
at home, and like the pain and everything that I
got behind all that so excuse me. So it was
at that point that was like it for me, because
I was like, you didn't care about me and what
happened to me, didn't care about your grandchild, and so
I just really just started acting out after that, Like
(05:57):
I had a good job I worked for when I
got out of school. I worked for the state retirement system.
You know, I was a clerk typist. I had a
good job. But my good job just kept me in
alcohol and drugs and everything else, so you know, and
it was just one bad relationship after another. It was
going out being real premissed with and I can't even
(06:19):
say the word promiscuit, excuse me. And it just became
a whole cycle for me, Like that's that's all. Was
all I was worried about was drinking and who was
I going home with that night, and who was doing
this and who was doing that? And then I thought
that changed because I got pregnant them when I was
(06:39):
twenty so and you know, I was living with my
grandmother at the time, and she's like, well, you can't
have that here, Like what would the neighbors think because
she was old school, so like you got to look
at the what the neighbors are going to think? So
I moved out. I had her, and I thought it
like things would get better with that, like because I
(07:01):
was still working. I was still going out, but not
as much because I had her, and I had slowed
down some with like my my drug habit, and then
like my roommate was moving out, so I had to
move back home, which I felt like that was going
to be a mistake, and it became one because the
(07:24):
way I did stuff they didn't necessarily agree with where
my daughter was concerned. So it was a constant I
don't know, I'm going to take her away from you
and X y Z and it just was like not good,
Like I took her and I left and they called
the police looking for me. It was just a real
(07:46):
It was a mess. It was a mess.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Could I thank you? Could I ask you a bit
going back to when how old were you when you
first started drinking and taking drugs? I know you just
commented that well twelve and other people around you where
wanting to help you? Or how did it like you
did share with this, how did it deteriorate that it
(08:11):
went from bad to worse? Like what happened if you
don't mind a little bit more.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
No, it just became a constant like there was nobody
there too, like because I hung around with older kids,
so that's what they were doing so and I wanted
to be you know, included with them, so you know,
I did what they were doing, and it was just
(08:36):
like nobody, like my parents didn't know. They didn't know
what I was doing because I was real good at
hiding it, you know, so they didn't know when I'd
come home drunk. I could walk in there and act
like I was sober as a church mouse, like I
could pull it off. So they really didn't know too
(08:58):
much what I was doing. They the only way they
found out that I was like really drinking was when
I I think I was in ninth grade and they
found out because they were away and I was next
door at the neighbors and you know, we were drinking
and got off and you know, the neighborhood boy thought
I couldn't walk, you know, across the yard, so he
(09:20):
picked me up and threw me of his shoulder, and
I ate the gray ass, you know. So I'm in
the house with a big hole in the front of
my mouth thinking to how am I explaining that to
them when they get over. But they didn't know for
a while, like till the neighbor finally, you know, told
him what actually happened, because I was like, I fell
off the porch trying to get the dog in the house.
(09:44):
But there was really nobody there that could guide me
in the right way because the people that I hung
out with all kind of did the same thing. So
it was it was.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Like a norm environment, I suppose. What about during that time, tho,
when your parents recognized was there ever like out external
or outside help you know sort for you whilst you're
going through the drinking and the drugs and stuff. No,
no help there.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
No, it was you know, you get grounded or right,
But there was never. They didn't. They didn't. I don't
think believe really too much in outside help because later
on in life, like my daughter had, you know, some
serious issues going on and they didn't want her. They
didn't take her to go see somebody, which she needed
(10:37):
because they were worried about the can of worms that
would get open. Right, So it was always my dad
used to my stepdad used to be an alcoholic, so
you would think, but no, there was never no kind
of like intervention, you know, or like hey, maybe you
need to go here and do this right. It's just
(10:57):
you know, you just get punished if you quiet and
keep it moving.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Wow, Thank you, Beth. How old are you today? And
then how old were you when you first entered a
County jail or the prison system.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
I was thirty four when I got arrested, and in January,
I'll be fifty nine.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Right, We've got a lot to talk about in between.
Haven't read.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
There's a lot of time, There's a lot, So.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Beth, if again leading up or just a little bit
more about your life. I'm going to take you back.
Education wise. You mentioned, you know, you became pregnant, then
you left school. What was your school experience, Like.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Oh, cut in class and you know, skip in school
and whatnot. Like I would go to school high I
would bring stuff and I would go to the bathroom
and duram. It was. It was a constant thing. But
I graduated high school, you know, and you know, further
down the line, I did like a semester of community
(12:10):
college up in New York, but that was really it. Then,
you know, down the line, I you know, went and
got certified as a CNA and so other things Like
school wasn't bad. Like I had fun at school, right, Like,
you know, I had the education, Like I was like
(12:30):
what would they call functioning functioning? I could function even
when I worked for the state, Like I could be
drinking or doing cocaine and I would function throughout work.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
And when you talk about functioning and so forth, how
long will you with that job, that position you said
when you're working with the.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
State, Probably until I think it was a few years
because I left the time when I took off with
my daughter from my parents' house, I stayed away. I
didn't go to work or anything. And I could have
went back to that job, and they were like, well,
you just have to face you know, a few days
(13:16):
of suspension, but she can come back. And at that time,
I was like felt myself spiraling. So I was like,
you know, no, I'm just gonna not So I just
did other jobs. But I didn't go back there because
I couldn't until I could get myself together. That wasn't
going to be you know, it wouldn't be fair to them.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
So and when you just spoken about getting yourself together,
did you seek, like later in life, any form of
treatment to help you with your behavior? No?
Speaker 2 (13:51):
I never did, like when because I pretty much just
like cold turkey everything that I when I stopped later on,
like it was down the road because I still drank
and everything. And then I was in a really bad
(14:11):
relationship and I ended up sending my daughter down to
my parents' house in Virginia, which was like that, I say,
that's the hardest decision I ever made, but it would
have been what was right for her because I felt
myself being angry all the time, you know, and she
was going to be the one that was gonna suffer
(14:32):
behind that, so I couldn't. And I always said I'd
never do to her what was done to me, so
my best pot was too. But then it just it
like spiraled really bad after she left because she was
kind of my grounding, yes, and once she was gone,
I just it got bad. It got bad because that
(14:57):
you know, I had wrote some bad checks and then
I took off because I didn't want to get in
trouble for the bad checks. And when I took off,
then I ended up. I ended up in New York
and I was prostituting. So like everything's fun. It's fun,
(15:19):
and it's weird because when I was up there doing that,
that's when I was really like smoking cracked and I
got into the drugs real heavy up there because I
had to get high to forget about what I was doing.
And it just like was a cycle that continually happened. Yes,
but then in the same sense, you know, because I
was I almost felt like I was used to that
(15:42):
type of life just because of growing up and nobody caring.
And it seemed like, you know, the only thing that
gave me any kind of power was what I could
do with a man. Yes, And that's what it became like.
It it was weird because, yeah, it kind of felt like,
(16:04):
you know, all that felt normal, like because you know,
it's like, well, they use you anyhow, so I'll just
choose them, and you know, and it was a big cycle, yes,
because I couldn't do nothing normal. Nothing felt normal unless
it was that that chaos, even with the abusive relationships,
(16:24):
Like I had a few that weren't like that. They
were really great people, and I felt like I was stuffocating.
It didn't feel normal to me, So I would leave
and then I'd end up back, Yes, end up right
back into and like back in the day, like I
don't think there were a lot of I don't remember
(16:45):
a lot of options like or where to go to
to get help, like nobody had ever told me, so
I kind of was just like flying blind through everything.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Yeah, when you spoke about in New York and the
work that you did. How old were you and for
how long.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
When I went up to New York? I was honestly
twenty twenty three, twenty three, twenty three or twenty four,
and I was doing it till I was probably thirty
thirty one somewhere a wrong there, because it hadn't been
long that I was, you know, away from all that
(17:32):
before everything else happened, right right, it was like fairly
fairly short time.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
When you reflect back on those those years, best, do
you have any thoughts or advice or words of wisdom
just generally to share with others about you know, you
mentioned the lack of self esteem, the abuse. Is there
any words that you would like to share with your
(18:00):
about that and maybe in a helpful way.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yeah, I would just be like, if you're in that
kind of relationship, even if it starts out with like
a push, it's going to escalate and there's not that
much love in the world to keep because that was
my go to. But I love them, but I love them,
but I love them, you know, And I wish somebody
could have told me, Hey, why don't you go here
(18:24):
and get some help, because you don't have to you
don't have to live in that situation. There's options out there,
and I know today there's a lot of options, there's hotlines,
there's centers, and I just don't ever think you're not
You're not worth anything.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
That I think was the biggest thing for me is
because I didn't feel like I was valued in any way,
shape or form. So it's easy to stay down a
rabbit hole when you feel like that. Is just know
that everybody has worse, everybody has value, like you're not
meant to live like that.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
And then beyond that, you left New York. It's not correct,
and what was your life following that? Before we talk
about the prison.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
When I left New York, I went back down to
my parents' house with my daughter, and uh, I married
a guy I had met up there, which I only married.
It's horrible. I only married him because he said his
uncle was going to give us a house. But that
need that was another one of those bad choice. But
(19:38):
I was down there for a while. I went I
went to school and you know, got my CNA license.
I was working as a manager at the time at
a fast food restaurant, you know, looking to be a
general manager like I felt like I was. I was
still worn out every now and then, but I was
more focused on my daughter, yes, because I was in
(20:00):
and out so much with her. And and I did
it again, and I went out one night and met
a guy and who turns out to be my co defendant,
and everything went to the wayside, like that was my problem,
Like I felt like I needed somebody else to validate me,
(20:23):
Like I didn't know how to function without a partner,
and that's what it was. And as soon as I
got one, everything else comes second, you know, horrible to say.
My daughter came second, my job came second, everything I
came second.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Thank you, Thank you for reflecting on that. So moving forward,
how old are you today?
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Fifty eight?
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Fifty eight, thank you? Okay, And again you're incarcerated at
a county jail at what age before? Okay? Could we
talk a little bit about the county jail experience from
your perspective.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Well, I was kind of nervous because I was in
another state and they brought me back up here. So
I was a little nervous too, like because you know,
you see all the jail programs and stuff. So I
was like, didn't know what I was getting into, but
I knew what charge I was facing coming up here. Yes,
And it's funny because the jail I was then they
(21:32):
always used to call Camp Cupcake because it wasn't it
wasn't horrible, Like the officers were real nice, like you
could go into office and just sit and talk with them,
and it actually wasn't a bad experience down there. It
was all right besides everything else going on, Like, yes,
(21:56):
the environment really wasn't that bad down there.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
And how long were you in a county jail before
you came to a state prison?
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Mm hmm. Let's see, I went back up and two
thousand and one, so I was there till I can't.
I was down there from two thousand at the county
jail once they brought me back up from two thousand
to the end of two thousand and one beginning of
(22:23):
two thousand and two, and in two thousand and two
I came up here.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
And what were you expecting in hindsight, you know, coming
into a state prison from a county jail.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Well, I was really trying to figure out because initially
I initially.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Was on death row, Okay, so I was really I
was thoroughly scared about what that was going to entail okay.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
So, but uh, I got up here and you know,
everything was going on. I was really nervous. But the
lieutenant at the time that worked up there, lieutenant, she
like helped put you at ease, like she would talk
to you, and she talked to me a lot beforehand,
and I'm like, I don't know how I'm supposed to
(23:13):
do this, Like this is I can't even fathom. If
somebody would have told me that that was going to
happen something in life, I'd have thought they were crazy,
you know, because you don't know what to expect. And
there was only like four other girls up there when
I came.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
And when you say just for the listeners up there,
your meaning on death row? Is that correct? Okay? Thank you.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Yeah. So there were four other women at the time
up there, and you know, you were you're locked down
twenty three hours a day, so it was kind of
you know, you had to amuse yourself pretty much. But
I was, I mean, I was scared. I just didn't
know how I was going to function in that setting.
(24:01):
And I remember just like I just got on the
floor one night and I just it was like, God, please,
could I don't know how to do this? I really don't.
And I actually kind of like it's weird to say,
but I actually kind of got a piece from it,
and I had myself where just because i'm here doesn't
(24:24):
mean that I can't do something productive. And it was
funny because I remember the first time my counselor met
with me, he said, you know, you scared me. And
I'm like what, I said, why? And he said, because
I don't think you know where you're at. I'm like, huh,
I said, I know exactly where I'm at. He said,
but you can't help because you're always small and or
(24:46):
you're always laughing. And I remember saying to him, I said,
you know, I could sit up here and be miserable.
I could be bitter, I could be angry, I said,
And it's not going to open that door and let
me out. So it's already a bad situation. Why do
I want to make myself make it any worse on myself?
(25:08):
So that's how I pretty much conducted myself, was like,
I don't have to let this place change me for
the worst.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Thank you, And with just again describing that it's so
interesting what you've shared. But the other little piece to
that is when you mentioned on death row. Just so
how long were you located in the death row.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
I was on death row from two thousand and two
until two thousand and seven.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Okay, would you mind sharing a little bit of I know,
the certain things you can't say, but just the day
to day routine and possibly a little bit more insiders
to when you would wake up one day after another,
what was going through your mind or how did you cope?
And you've already provided it's some insight, but over that
(26:02):
five year period approximately being on death row, could you
share a little bit of who you were? What did
you do to cope? You know, what were you going through?
Speaker 2 (26:12):
If you don't mind, Yeah, A lot of times I
tried to just occupy my mind, like you know, you
could watch TV. I had a lot of pen pals.
I would do a lot of writing. I learned a
crochet when I was in the county, so I did
a lot of crochet, and I did a lot of reading.
I did a lot of Bible studies and like self
(26:38):
help type stuff. When I could go down to the
one room, I would go down there. You could go
down with one other person and we'd sit down there
and there was like a treadmill so you could work
out and just sit and have a conversation. But there
were days like when I'd wake up because you wake
(26:59):
up to count the bell ringing, and it's like another
day and you just stand in and just go about
your day like I always. They always asked me, like
where did I think I was going? Because I would
always make sure my hair was done, my makeup was done.
I wasn't going nowhere. But that was like something with
(27:19):
my poor self image that I did, even on the outside.
And I remember there were days when like I woke
up and I just look at the four walls and
be like, I can't believe this is my life right now.
Like I would just have a good cry. I'd be
(27:40):
like I don't this is never going to end, you know,
And you'd have your bouts to depression. They were few
and far between.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
For me.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
I think it was worse was than not being able
you able to be there like for people, and like
being up there and having close friends or family pass
away and you know you're finding out by a phone call,
and you know that makes it hard. But as long
(28:16):
as you're doing stuff like granted it wasn't always you know,
nice up there. You know, you only could get a
shower three times a week and okay, you know, and
then you had to be cuffed up and shackled, you know,
to go to the shower and come back. And then
you know, like regular GP would be housed up their
general population, like when they got in trouble, they would
(28:37):
come up to the right juke because that's where we
were housed. And you know, sometimes you had to like
for days just listening to people's scream. Like, you know,
it was a lot of times, but like I said,
like the most, the most, I just did stuff to
keep busy. A lot of times I would try and
like sleep during the day because at night it was
(29:00):
quiet that you could think and just to that. Like
I tried not to do well too much on the
factor where I was sitting because I was one and
I've always been one that I have to be present
in the moment, like I didn't never look to the
future or look in Somebody say you don't have hope,
(29:23):
and I'd be like, it's not that I don't have hope,
but for me to get through day by day, I
have to resign myself to this is my life right now,
you know, and you've got to take the steps you
have to take to be able to get up every
day and go through another day of like you know,
up there, it was the same thing every day because
(29:43):
you got out an hour for rec then you're locked
in your room the rest of the time, so you didn't.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
And what about any access to outsiders when you're on
death rod? What does that look like or what was that.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Like for you? That is I when my friends were look,
my one friend was still alive. She would come up
and see me. But that it wasn't none contact visit.
So you were in a there was a glass separating
and then you talked either over the phone. I can't
remember the phone or if it was just a glass
with the whole. I think it was the phone. And
that's how you because you weren't allowed to have contact
visits when you were on death row.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
And how long was the visit you able to have
a visit?
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Oh, I don't even know if I remember how long
they were? I think I don't know that.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
I don't remember.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
I don't remember. I know it was at least an
hour or two, right right, at least that.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
Yeah, and going through that, no doubt traumatic and I'm
not wanting to put words into mouth, but not knowing
what the next day would hold for you, what changed
because you're no longer there, So can you take us
through maybe leading up to what happened from a criminal
(30:59):
justice realm that has changed where you are there to
hear today. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
They had filed, like I had skipped phoning an appeal
at the county level because the judge I had was
the presiding the president judge, so I knew he wasn't
gonna he wasn't going to change what he already you know, decided.
So we appealed to the Supreme Court and they granted
(31:29):
me a new trial. So and I actually found out.
It was so funny because I actually found out from
my daughter, not my lawyer, because I called home and
she's like, Mom, you're all over the internet. And I'm
like what And she said you don't know. I said no.
What she said, you want your appeal? I said what?
Like I was just like, it was like the best day.
(31:53):
I was screaming. I was like and I thought it
couldn't have been better to come from her, because I
got a letter like a couple days later from my attorney.
But yeah, it was like it was like the best
of day.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
So that's how you found out you had gone your repeal.
And the people that don't understand the appeal was for
what your appeal from death row to be sentence re sentenced?
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Well? Ours was actually, I think because we were trying
to get a new trial. So we did get a
new trial, got the sentence vacated. You know, we were
there was some issues and like we had won certain
issues and then so when I left in two thousand
(32:39):
and seven and went back to the county again, I
was down there for three years waiting. Yeah, because my
lawyers were fighting, Like they appealed to the Supreme Court
because one of our issues was prosecution as conduct. So
we were putting it before the Supreme Court because if
they were yeah, my, you know that went on, they
(33:02):
could acquit the whole thing. But the Supreme Court decided
not to bring it in for consideration at that time.
So we went to Superior Court and tried it and
they said they weren't going to bring it in right now,
but I could do it later. And I'm like, well,
I don't understand what doing later would do because I'm
getting ready to go back to trial, but we ended
(33:23):
up not going back to trial. I ended up taking
a plea deal, okay, because I knew I had nothing new, okay,
and it was just you know, like my one of
my main witnesses had passed on, so you know, you
could read testimony in, but I don't think it would
(33:45):
have the same impact as if the person was there.
So I just you know, my daughter, she was afraid
because they said they would seek the death penalty again
and they had just executed a female in Virginia where
she was living, and she was terrified of that and
(34:06):
she was like, Mom, please, it just please. And I
always said I had to do anything for her, so
I do. When they offered me, I plead a second degree.
I took it.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
And now that brings you to where you are here
as opposed to on death row, and that second degree
that is life. Yes, yes, thank you, and thank you
for sharing that. And how important relevant the impact and
your relationship with your daughter.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Yeah, I've been blessed where that's concerned, because you know,
she gets angry at times and she has every right.
She always used to feel bad when she got angry
at me, and I said, you have every rate to
be angry, you know, on so many different levels. But
she's still there. We still we talk every day, well
not every day, like once a week at least, because
(34:59):
I really don't he anything new to share and I'm like, yes,
you know does the day to day doesn't change too much.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
And how at this moment, Well, actually I'll go back.
So you mentioned you're so excited, you were thrilled, but
you know you took the plea deal. So moving forward
into the general population. Okay, when you first begun in
the general population to where we are sitting opposite each
other today, can you talk a little bit about that
(35:28):
transition or what was what happened to you or what
were you going through.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
When I first got up here, they like housed me
by myself just because they were trying for me to
transition from being where I was in the general population,
which was it was okay, but I was used to
having a roommate down in County, So I was like,
can I just get a roommate because I don't like
I did enough time by myself, Like I need people,
(35:55):
don't be to talk to. So the staff was really good.
My counselors were super helpful, like when I was ready
for a roommate, they were like, I'll let you pick
your roommate, you know somebody you're comfortable with. When I
went to get a job, the employment lady that was
here at the time, she was like, are you sure
(36:17):
you want to work right now? You don't want to
just take some time, And I'm like, no, I'm ready
to work. They work with me to get a job
that I wanted to do, So it was I had
a lot of helpful people. I had a lot of
help like they didn't just you know, it was weird
getting adjusted to all the people and like go and
(36:40):
walk in free, like walking to your meals and being
able to go out to the yard with other people
like that was a big adjustment. But I've and it's
so funny I found over the years, like I'm so
used to.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
I don't want to say.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Turning into and I am. It sounds funny, but like
I'm a survivor, Like I can adapt to whatever my
situation is. So when I came out, it was a
little different, but I quickly got myself adjusted to how
things were going to be and how they were acting,
(37:25):
so you know, it was really good. I was able
to go to church. So I was happy about that,
you know, there was I was able to work. So
and actually there's up here like for the most part
up here, like the staff, the officers, like they've all
like I haven't had any problems with any of them.
They've been helpful, they've been you know. I seen the
(37:47):
officers like years later after I came off with death Row,
that we're up there and I was down here and
I was in the dog program with the dog and
They're like, can you imagine? Did you ever imagine this
is what would will be calm? And I'm like no,
And they would say like like I'm really proud of
how you You didn't let yes things you know mold
(38:11):
who you are. So and it's like I always I
like to keep in mind that you can be productive
and I can make my daughter proud by my conduct,
So I'm not looking to get any kind of problems,
Like I can still make her proud even though I'm here.
(38:34):
There's things that I can do here that better my
life or can better somebody else's. You know, I did.
I did the House of Hope, which could you share
with us? That's a program for abuse women, adds impatient treatment.
And actually when I was there, like it really made
(38:56):
me find my my core issues as to why you
know I am now in the choices I made. And
you know, it was a lot of dig in. And
it took me twice to do it because the first
time I was kind of just like, eh, I wasn't
really serious about it. But the second time, you know,
(39:18):
I was serious. I actually you know, you dove into
your childhood and you know, they had us. I remember
they had us write a letter to our abuser. And
we didn't have to send it, let's write it and
then we'd read it.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
And how did you feel about doing that?
Speaker 2 (39:35):
I was I actually I was a little nervous because
I really didn't address a lot of issues. I just
I'm one that I would just like stuff it, sweep
it away, and just go on about my business. But
then that kept me stuck in all my choices I
was making, and you know, and I knew that the
(39:56):
only way to do that was to really look at
look at the hurt, look at the anchor. You know.
So it was it was a whole big process that really,
like after I read the letter, like I felt so
much better reading that letter because It got me to
get out things that I needed to say that I
(40:18):
couldn't say. So it was like it was a really
good release. But it's a super program. I got confidence.
My confidence came back. Like I even seen people when
I came out and they were like, you seem different.
I'm like, yeah, Like I got over the body imaging
like always happened to be done off and like I
(40:40):
was just you know, the weight issues because I had
bad weight issues, so I would, you know, do what
you do to lose the weight. But I got past
all that because I was able to be okay with
just me and I didn't need anybody else or anything
to make me happy. It's all within yourself. So you
(41:03):
know that that really made a difference. When I didn't
have that worry anymore and I could just be it
was it changed everything then and.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
The Puppy Program, because I guess also today is frazzle
Is that correct? Yes, frazzle is down beside your feet.
So yeah, so could you talk a little bit about
the Puppy Program.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
I actually joined the Puppy Program in twenty fourteen. I seen,
you know, someone I worked with, they were in the program,
and I just seen what they were doing, and I
was just like so amazed at what these dogs do
from the time they're little and when they first learned
their name, when they first learned to sit. It's so cute.
(41:51):
Because we used to get dogs when they were little puppies.
We don't know so much anymore.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
But uh.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
I the dog actually give me a sense of purpose,
Like they have a purpose because you're responsible for them.
You're responsible for their training and their everyday care and upkeep.
But in the same sense, it's what they go on
to do for somebody else. Just like makes it all
(42:20):
the better because we would get letters from the people
that have received one of the dogs we trained and
just to hear the difference that they make. It's and plus,
you know, having a dog, it kind of gives you
a little bit of that normal you know, like as
if you were at home and you had your dog.
Even though they're not a pet, they're not supposed to
(42:42):
be out there, no, no, no, but they're they're a
lot of fun. They're a lot of fun, and it
just I get so much out of it that, like
I had to step away because of time constraint. You know,
you're caning to be for so long I'm going to
how to step away, and I missed the dog so
(43:02):
much and I couldn't. They asked me to come back,
and I was like, yeah, I couldn't wait to get back.
I mean, it's a lot of work. Your day never
gets done until they go to bed.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
But babies having met Fressel, absolutely adorable. Okay, I do.
Before we finish up today, we've got a few more
minutes to chat aging in the prison system and then thinking,
if you do think about dying or deaths and dying
(43:39):
in the prison, can you just provide some insight or
your thoughts on that aging.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
I guess aging like it's all about I think too,
like with your mind, Like I can feel myself getting
older where I feel like I can't do like stuff
I used to be able to do. But I try
not to think about like dying in here because you
see so many people that have been here and you
(44:08):
see them pass on, and it's I would rather know
not here, so but I I don't. I don't dwell
on that too much. I like, you know, I filed
for commutation and stuff, so I'm hoping something pans out there,
but if not, it don't you know, you just keep trying.
(44:31):
But uh, I will say though the women that have
passed here like they they made them like for the
most part, they made them comfortable, like the services they
would have for them over at the chapel. You know,
they tried, you try to like they brought some joy
(44:54):
to it, even though it was a sad time. But
I have some ends here, so I don't think it
would be you know, I would worry about being alone
like I would not want.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
That, Yes, I would, you know, but I hear that
from many women. It's the sadness of possibly dying alone
and they don't wish that. Thank you. But before we go,
I always ask the ladies, we've learned a lot about
who you were, and again your journey sitting opposite me today,
(45:27):
But in summary, how do you do how do you
describe the bath that's sitting right here opposite me today?
Speaker 2 (45:36):
I think it's a healed bath. I think it's a
better bath than what I was. Because I was able
to deal with issues. I was able to, you know,
learn how to be that person that I should have
been all that time. My God, I was able to
get that help I need. I was able to do
(45:59):
numerous programs here, Like, there's so much offered to you
here where you can continually better yourself and work on yourself.
So that's pretty much what I've tried to do is
just well, there's always room for improvement. So yeah, but
the experience here, I know a lot of you know,
(46:20):
a lot of people think, oh, it's horrible you're in jail.
But you know, if I wouldn't have came to jail,
I probably would have been probably wouldn't be here at all. Really,
to be honest, and like, it's been a blessing, and
it's weird to say, but really, I didn't I don't
have I didn't don't consider this a bad experience because
(46:42):
I've been able to do so much with myself to
get myself where I needed to be. So it actually
has a it's horrible that you can't be home with
your family, but it's not. I'm sure there's a lot
of worse places as you can be, you know, just
all about your mindset. And that's what I've tried to do,
(47:03):
is just get my mind right.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
Wow, And we could talk for a lot more of.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
Or maybe you could.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
Talk a lot more, be it has been a pleasure.
It's been wonderful to get to know you and wish
you all the very best. Thank you from the butt
of my heart for giving us your time and your
story today.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
You're welcome. I enjoyed it. It was It was very uplifting,
and it's nice that somebody knows that the women aren't forgotten,
you know.
Speaker 4 (47:40):
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for joining
us on another episode of Self Identities Conversations with Convicted Women,
a Fly Impossums production in association with Matter Productions. We
(48:04):
deeply appreciate the support of our listeners and the contributions
from everyone who has made this podcast possible. Your engagement
and encouragement drive us to continue these important conversations until
next time. Take care,
We'd like to acknowledge for our listeners just upfront that
what you will hear from individual incarcerated women throughout the
episode you may find to be emotionally charged and even disturbing,
So we just want to acknowledge that and make you
aware of that. Furthermore, something that listeners probably don't realize
(00:22):
is that all of our individual conversations with each woman
was recorded inside a maximum security prison, the State Correctional
Institution SCI Munsey in Pennsylvania here in the United States.
So the noise, there's any chatter, anything in the background.
(00:44):
For our listeners just to understand that we actually recorded
inside a prison where the day goes on. The women,
the officers, the staff, they all have their jobs. Just
because we're there, it doesn't stop or everything becomes quiet.
So if you do, as listeners here any background noise,
please understand that is part of being inside a prison.
(01:18):
Hello everyone, and thank you for tuning into our podcast
Self Identities Conversations with Convicted Women. My name is doctor
Katherine Whiteley, and I'm a feminist criminologist. Today I'm visiting
SCI Munci, a state correctional facility for women in Pennsylvania
(01:39):
in the United States and joining me today is Beth.
Welcome Beth, thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
It's good to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Yeah, it is great to see you. We haven't physically
met before, We've only had one meeting online, so this
is very new for both of us to get to
know each other.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, so I'm looking forward to mitel he Beth, would
you be able to share with our listeners about your
childhood if you could think back as far as you
possibly can, and yes, share this a little bit about
your childhood. You're growing up.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
It necessarily wasn't the best of childhood. It could have
been worse. But like, I never knew my father, so
my mom lived, we lived with my great grandparents, so
that's where my mom used to go out a lot.
So I was really attached to them. And then when
I was like in i'd say first grade, no, second grade,
(02:38):
she married again. So my stepfather was like the only
father that I knew. But at first that was okay,
but that became a very very tumultuous time with him.
There was a lot of verbal abuse, there was some
physical abuse, more for my brother than for me. But uh,
(03:04):
it just didn't it didn't make for the best of
the best of times, it was a constant, you know,
something was going on. The littlest thing could set them off,
and you know, my mom she just didn't get it.
She didn't intervene. So it was kind of like you're
(03:26):
kind of on your own where that was concerned. But
I mean, I don't want to act like that was
all that bad, because there were good times through there.
But I distinctly remember like the bad times more than
anything else because I think it shaped what I the
choices that I ended up making as I was growing up.
(03:50):
You know, like when I was twelve, a neighborhood boy
sexually assaulted me, and when I told my parents about it,
they blame me for it. So at that time, I
was thinking, you know, you know, nobody really cares what's
going on. And it kind of shaped like I found
(04:12):
myself in any relationship as I progressed through the years,
like they were all bad, they were all abusive, because
that's anything that felt normal. And I think I can
pinpoint my turning point when I just really didn't care,
Like I started smoking some marijuana like when I was twelve,
(04:32):
and cigarettes and just you know, drinking and like doing
it all. And then when I was seventeen and I
got pregnant and I was planning on going away to
have it because I didn't believe in abortion at you
know or anything like that. And my friend told me
(04:53):
call my parents in total what I was going to do.
So they showed up at school. You know, I'm coming
out of class and nurstand and I'm like, ah, you know,
and right away it was like nope, nope, nope, Like
they talked to the boy and they were all on
the same page, but me so and I didn't know
(05:14):
what else to do. So I just you know, that
was like the worst thing to me that happened was
happened to do that, And they had to like put
me to sleep to do it because I freaked out beforehand.
I was like I couldn't do it, and like I
had myself convinced. I didn't do it until I was
(05:35):
at home, and like the pain and everything that I
got behind all that so excuse me. So it was
at that point that was like it for me, because
I was like, you didn't care about me and what
happened to me, didn't care about your grandchild, and so
I just really just started acting out after that, Like
(05:57):
I had a good job I worked for when I
got out of school. I worked for the state retirement system.
You know, I was a clerk typist. I had a
good job. But my good job just kept me in
alcohol and drugs and everything else, so you know, and
it was just one bad relationship after another. It was
going out being real premissed with and I can't even
(06:19):
say the word promiscuit, excuse me. And it just became
a whole cycle for me, Like that's that's all. Was
all I was worried about was drinking and who was
I going home with that night, and who was doing
this and who was doing that? And then I thought
that changed because I got pregnant them when I was
(06:39):
twenty so and you know, I was living with my
grandmother at the time, and she's like, well, you can't
have that here, Like what would the neighbors think because
she was old school, so like you got to look
at the what the neighbors are going to think? So
I moved out. I had her, and I thought it
like things would get better with that, like because I
(07:01):
was still working. I was still going out, but not
as much because I had her, and I had slowed
down some with like my my drug habit, and then
like my roommate was moving out, so I had to
move back home, which I felt like that was going
to be a mistake, and it became one because the
(07:24):
way I did stuff they didn't necessarily agree with where
my daughter was concerned. So it was a constant I
don't know, I'm going to take her away from you
and X y Z and it just was like not good,
Like I took her and I left and they called
the police looking for me. It was just a real
(07:46):
It was a mess. It was a mess.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Could I thank you? Could I ask you a bit
going back to when how old were you when you
first started drinking and taking drugs? I know you just
commented that well twelve and other people around you where
wanting to help you? Or how did it like you
did share with this, how did it deteriorate that it
(08:11):
went from bad to worse? Like what happened if you
don't mind a little bit more.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
No, it just became a constant like there was nobody
there too, like because I hung around with older kids,
so that's what they were doing so and I wanted
to be you know, included with them, so you know,
I did what they were doing, and it was just
(08:36):
like nobody, like my parents didn't know. They didn't know
what I was doing because I was real good at
hiding it, you know, so they didn't know when I'd
come home drunk. I could walk in there and act
like I was sober as a church mouse, like I
could pull it off. So they really didn't know too
(08:58):
much what I was doing. They the only way they
found out that I was like really drinking was when
I I think I was in ninth grade and they
found out because they were away and I was next
door at the neighbors and you know, we were drinking
and got off and you know, the neighborhood boy thought
I couldn't walk, you know, across the yard, so he
(09:20):
picked me up and threw me of his shoulder, and
I ate the gray ass, you know. So I'm in
the house with a big hole in the front of
my mouth thinking to how am I explaining that to
them when they get over. But they didn't know for
a while, like till the neighbor finally, you know, told
him what actually happened, because I was like, I fell
off the porch trying to get the dog in the house.
(09:44):
But there was really nobody there that could guide me
in the right way because the people that I hung
out with all kind of did the same thing. So
it was it was.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Like a norm environment, I suppose. What about during that time, tho,
when your parents recognized was there ever like out external
or outside help you know sort for you whilst you're
going through the drinking and the drugs and stuff. No,
no help there.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
No, it was you know, you get grounded or right,
But there was never. They didn't. They didn't. I don't
think believe really too much in outside help because later
on in life, like my daughter had, you know, some
serious issues going on and they didn't want her. They
didn't take her to go see somebody, which she needed
(10:37):
because they were worried about the can of worms that
would get open. Right, So it was always my dad
used to my stepdad used to be an alcoholic, so
you would think, but no, there was never no kind
of like intervention, you know, or like hey, maybe you
need to go here and do this right. It's just
(10:57):
you know, you just get punished if you quiet and
keep it moving.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Wow, Thank you, Beth. How old are you today? And
then how old were you when you first entered a
County jail or the prison system.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
I was thirty four when I got arrested, and in January,
I'll be fifty nine.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Right, We've got a lot to talk about in between.
Haven't read.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
There's a lot of time, There's a lot, So.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Beth, if again leading up or just a little bit
more about your life. I'm going to take you back.
Education wise. You mentioned, you know, you became pregnant, then
you left school. What was your school experience, Like.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Oh, cut in class and you know, skip in school
and whatnot. Like I would go to school high I
would bring stuff and I would go to the bathroom
and duram. It was. It was a constant thing. But
I graduated high school, you know, and you know, further
down the line, I did like a semester of community
(12:10):
college up in New York, but that was really it. Then,
you know, down the line, I you know, went and
got certified as a CNA and so other things Like
school wasn't bad. Like I had fun at school, right, Like,
you know, I had the education, Like I was like
(12:30):
what would they call functioning functioning? I could function even
when I worked for the state, Like I could be
drinking or doing cocaine and I would function throughout work.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
And when you talk about functioning and so forth, how
long will you with that job, that position you said
when you're working with the.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
State, Probably until I think it was a few years
because I left the time when I took off with
my daughter from my parents' house, I stayed away. I
didn't go to work or anything. And I could have
went back to that job, and they were like, well,
you just have to face you know, a few days
(13:16):
of suspension, but she can come back. And at that time,
I was like felt myself spiraling. So I was like,
you know, no, I'm just gonna not So I just
did other jobs. But I didn't go back there because
I couldn't until I could get myself together. That wasn't
going to be you know, it wouldn't be fair to them.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
So and when you just spoken about getting yourself together,
did you seek, like later in life, any form of
treatment to help you with your behavior? No?
Speaker 2 (13:51):
I never did, like when because I pretty much just
like cold turkey everything that I when I stopped later on,
like it was down the road because I still drank
and everything. And then I was in a really bad
(14:11):
relationship and I ended up sending my daughter down to
my parents' house in Virginia, which was like that, I say,
that's the hardest decision I ever made, but it would
have been what was right for her because I felt
myself being angry all the time, you know, and she
was going to be the one that was gonna suffer
(14:32):
behind that, so I couldn't. And I always said I'd
never do to her what was done to me, so
my best pot was too. But then it just it
like spiraled really bad after she left because she was
kind of my grounding, yes, and once she was gone,
I just it got bad. It got bad because that
(14:57):
you know, I had wrote some bad checks and then
I took off because I didn't want to get in
trouble for the bad checks. And when I took off,
then I ended up. I ended up in New York
and I was prostituting. So like everything's fun. It's fun,
(15:19):
and it's weird because when I was up there doing that,
that's when I was really like smoking cracked and I
got into the drugs real heavy up there because I
had to get high to forget about what I was doing.
And it just like was a cycle that continually happened. Yes,
but then in the same sense, you know, because I
was I almost felt like I was used to that
(15:42):
type of life just because of growing up and nobody caring.
And it seemed like, you know, the only thing that
gave me any kind of power was what I could
do with a man. Yes, And that's what it became like.
It it was weird because, yeah, it kind of felt like,
(16:04):
you know, all that felt normal, like because you know,
it's like, well, they use you anyhow, so I'll just
choose them, and you know, and it was a big cycle, yes,
because I couldn't do nothing normal. Nothing felt normal unless
it was that that chaos, even with the abusive relationships,
(16:24):
Like I had a few that weren't like that. They
were really great people, and I felt like I was stuffocating.
It didn't feel normal to me, So I would leave
and then I'd end up back, Yes, end up right
back into and like back in the day, like I
don't think there were a lot of I don't remember
(16:45):
a lot of options like or where to go to
to get help, like nobody had ever told me, so
I kind of was just like flying blind through everything.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Yeah, when you spoke about in New York and the
work that you did. How old were you and for
how long.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
When I went up to New York? I was honestly
twenty twenty three, twenty three, twenty three or twenty four,
and I was doing it till I was probably thirty
thirty one somewhere a wrong there, because it hadn't been
long that I was, you know, away from all that
(17:32):
before everything else happened, right right, it was like fairly
fairly short time.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
When you reflect back on those those years, best, do
you have any thoughts or advice or words of wisdom
just generally to share with others about you know, you
mentioned the lack of self esteem, the abuse. Is there
any words that you would like to share with your
(18:00):
about that and maybe in a helpful way.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yeah, I would just be like, if you're in that
kind of relationship, even if it starts out with like
a push, it's going to escalate and there's not that
much love in the world to keep because that was
my go to. But I love them, but I love them,
but I love them, you know, And I wish somebody
could have told me, Hey, why don't you go here
(18:24):
and get some help, because you don't have to you
don't have to live in that situation. There's options out there,
and I know today there's a lot of options, there's hotlines,
there's centers, and I just don't ever think you're not
You're not worth anything.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
That I think was the biggest thing for me is
because I didn't feel like I was valued in any way,
shape or form. So it's easy to stay down a
rabbit hole when you feel like that. Is just know
that everybody has worse, everybody has value, like you're not
meant to live like that.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
And then beyond that, you left New York. It's not correct,
and what was your life following that? Before we talk
about the prison.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
When I left New York, I went back down to
my parents' house with my daughter, and uh, I married
a guy I had met up there, which I only married.
It's horrible. I only married him because he said his
uncle was going to give us a house. But that
need that was another one of those bad choice. But
(19:38):
I was down there for a while. I went I
went to school and you know, got my CNA license.
I was working as a manager at the time at
a fast food restaurant, you know, looking to be a
general manager like I felt like I was. I was
still worn out every now and then, but I was
more focused on my daughter, yes, because I was in
(20:00):
and out so much with her. And and I did
it again, and I went out one night and met
a guy and who turns out to be my co defendant,
and everything went to the wayside, like that was my problem,
Like I felt like I needed somebody else to validate me,
(20:23):
Like I didn't know how to function without a partner,
and that's what it was. And as soon as I
got one, everything else comes second, you know, horrible to say.
My daughter came second, my job came second, everything I
came second.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Thank you, Thank you for reflecting on that. So moving forward,
how old are you today?
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Fifty eight?
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Fifty eight, thank you? Okay, And again you're incarcerated at
a county jail at what age before? Okay? Could we
talk a little bit about the county jail experience from
your perspective.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Well, I was kind of nervous because I was in
another state and they brought me back up here. So
I was a little nervous too, like because you know,
you see all the jail programs and stuff. So I
was like, didn't know what I was getting into, but
I knew what charge I was facing coming up here. Yes,
And it's funny because the jail I was then they
(21:32):
always used to call Camp Cupcake because it wasn't it
wasn't horrible, Like the officers were real nice, like you
could go into office and just sit and talk with them,
and it actually wasn't a bad experience down there. It
was all right besides everything else going on, Like, yes,
(21:56):
the environment really wasn't that bad down there.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
And how long were you in a county jail before
you came to a state prison?
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Mm hmm. Let's see, I went back up and two
thousand and one, so I was there till I can't.
I was down there from two thousand at the county
jail once they brought me back up from two thousand
to the end of two thousand and one beginning of
(22:23):
two thousand and two, and in two thousand and two
I came up here.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
And what were you expecting in hindsight, you know, coming
into a state prison from a county jail.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Well, I was really trying to figure out because initially
I initially.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Was on death row, Okay, so I was really I
was thoroughly scared about what that was going to entail okay.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
So, but uh, I got up here and you know,
everything was going on. I was really nervous. But the
lieutenant at the time that worked up there, lieutenant, she
like helped put you at ease, like she would talk
to you, and she talked to me a lot beforehand,
and I'm like, I don't know how I'm supposed to
(23:13):
do this, Like this is I can't even fathom. If
somebody would have told me that that was going to
happen something in life, I'd have thought they were crazy,
you know, because you don't know what to expect. And
there was only like four other girls up there when
I came.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
And when you say just for the listeners up there,
your meaning on death row? Is that correct? Okay? Thank you.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Yeah. So there were four other women at the time
up there, and you know, you were you're locked down
twenty three hours a day, so it was kind of
you know, you had to amuse yourself pretty much. But
I was, I mean, I was scared. I just didn't
know how I was going to function in that setting.
(24:01):
And I remember just like I just got on the
floor one night and I just it was like, God, please,
could I don't know how to do this? I really don't.
And I actually kind of like it's weird to say,
but I actually kind of got a piece from it,
and I had myself where just because i'm here doesn't
(24:24):
mean that I can't do something productive. And it was
funny because I remember the first time my counselor met
with me, he said, you know, you scared me. And
I'm like what, I said, why? And he said, because
I don't think you know where you're at. I'm like, huh,
I said, I know exactly where I'm at. He said,
but you can't help because you're always small and or
(24:46):
you're always laughing. And I remember saying to him, I said,
you know, I could sit up here and be miserable.
I could be bitter, I could be angry, I said,
And it's not going to open that door and let
me out. So it's already a bad situation. Why do
I want to make myself make it any worse on myself?
(25:08):
So that's how I pretty much conducted myself, was like,
I don't have to let this place change me for
the worst.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Thank you, And with just again describing that it's so
interesting what you've shared. But the other little piece to
that is when you mentioned on death row. Just so
how long were you located in the death row.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
I was on death row from two thousand and two
until two thousand and seven.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Okay, would you mind sharing a little bit of I know,
the certain things you can't say, but just the day
to day routine and possibly a little bit more insiders
to when you would wake up one day after another,
what was going through your mind or how did you cope?
And you've already provided it's some insight, but over that
(26:02):
five year period approximately being on death row, could you
share a little bit of who you were? What did
you do to cope? You know, what were you going through?
Speaker 2 (26:12):
If you don't mind, Yeah, A lot of times I
tried to just occupy my mind, like you know, you
could watch TV. I had a lot of pen pals.
I would do a lot of writing. I learned a
crochet when I was in the county, so I did
a lot of crochet, and I did a lot of reading.
I did a lot of Bible studies and like self
(26:38):
help type stuff. When I could go down to the
one room, I would go down there. You could go
down with one other person and we'd sit down there
and there was like a treadmill so you could work
out and just sit and have a conversation. But there
were days like when I'd wake up because you wake
(26:59):
up to count the bell ringing, and it's like another
day and you just stand in and just go about
your day like I always. They always asked me, like
where did I think I was going? Because I would
always make sure my hair was done, my makeup was done.
I wasn't going nowhere. But that was like something with
(27:19):
my poor self image that I did, even on the outside.
And I remember there were days when like I woke
up and I just look at the four walls and
be like, I can't believe this is my life right now.
Like I would just have a good cry. I'd be
(27:40):
like I don't this is never going to end, you know,
And you'd have your bouts to depression. They were few
and far between.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
For me.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
I think it was worse was than not being able
you able to be there like for people, and like
being up there and having close friends or family pass
away and you know you're finding out by a phone call,
and you know that makes it hard. But as long
(28:16):
as you're doing stuff like granted it wasn't always you know,
nice up there. You know, you only could get a
shower three times a week and okay, you know, and
then you had to be cuffed up and shackled, you know,
to go to the shower and come back. And then
you know, like regular GP would be housed up their
general population, like when they got in trouble, they would
(28:37):
come up to the right juke because that's where we
were housed. And you know, sometimes you had to like
for days just listening to people's scream. Like, you know,
it was a lot of times, but like I said,
like the most, the most, I just did stuff to
keep busy. A lot of times I would try and
like sleep during the day because at night it was
(29:00):
quiet that you could think and just to that. Like
I tried not to do well too much on the
factor where I was sitting because I was one and
I've always been one that I have to be present
in the moment, like I didn't never look to the
future or look in Somebody say you don't have hope,
(29:23):
and I'd be like, it's not that I don't have hope,
but for me to get through day by day, I
have to resign myself to this is my life right now,
you know, and you've got to take the steps you
have to take to be able to get up every
day and go through another day of like you know,
up there, it was the same thing every day because
(29:43):
you got out an hour for rec then you're locked
in your room the rest of the time, so you didn't.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
And what about any access to outsiders when you're on
death rod? What does that look like or what was that.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Like for you? That is I when my friends were look,
my one friend was still alive. She would come up
and see me. But that it wasn't none contact visit.
So you were in a there was a glass separating
and then you talked either over the phone. I can't
remember the phone or if it was just a glass
with the whole. I think it was the phone. And
that's how you because you weren't allowed to have contact
visits when you were on death row.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
And how long was the visit you able to have
a visit?
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Oh, I don't even know if I remember how long
they were? I think I don't know that.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
I don't remember.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
I don't remember. I know it was at least an
hour or two, right right, at least that.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
Yeah, and going through that, no doubt traumatic and I'm
not wanting to put words into mouth, but not knowing
what the next day would hold for you, what changed
because you're no longer there, So can you take us
through maybe leading up to what happened from a criminal
(30:59):
justice realm that has changed where you are there to
hear today. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
They had filed, like I had skipped phoning an appeal
at the county level because the judge I had was
the presiding the president judge, so I knew he wasn't
gonna he wasn't going to change what he already you know, decided.
So we appealed to the Supreme Court and they granted
(31:29):
me a new trial. So and I actually found out.
It was so funny because I actually found out from
my daughter, not my lawyer, because I called home and
she's like, Mom, you're all over the internet. And I'm
like what And she said you don't know. I said no.
What she said, you want your appeal? I said what?
Like I was just like, it was like the best day.
(31:53):
I was screaming. I was like and I thought it
couldn't have been better to come from her, because I
got a letter like a couple days later from my attorney.
But yeah, it was like it was like the best
of day.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
So that's how you found out you had gone your repeal.
And the people that don't understand the appeal was for
what your appeal from death row to be sentence re sentenced?
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Well? Ours was actually, I think because we were trying
to get a new trial. So we did get a
new trial, got the sentence vacated. You know, we were
there was some issues and like we had won certain
issues and then so when I left in two thousand
(32:39):
and seven and went back to the county again, I
was down there for three years waiting. Yeah, because my
lawyers were fighting, Like they appealed to the Supreme Court
because one of our issues was prosecution as conduct. So
we were putting it before the Supreme Court because if
they were yeah, my, you know that went on, they
(33:02):
could acquit the whole thing. But the Supreme Court decided
not to bring it in for consideration at that time.
So we went to Superior Court and tried it and
they said they weren't going to bring it in right now,
but I could do it later. And I'm like, well,
I don't understand what doing later would do because I'm
getting ready to go back to trial, but we ended
(33:23):
up not going back to trial. I ended up taking
a plea deal, okay, because I knew I had nothing new, okay,
and it was just you know, like my one of
my main witnesses had passed on, so you know, you
could read testimony in, but I don't think it would
(33:45):
have the same impact as if the person was there.
So I just you know, my daughter, she was afraid
because they said they would seek the death penalty again
and they had just executed a female in Virginia where
she was living, and she was terrified of that and
(34:06):
she was like, Mom, please, it just please. And I
always said I had to do anything for her, so
I do. When they offered me, I plead a second degree.
I took it.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
And now that brings you to where you are here
as opposed to on death row, and that second degree
that is life. Yes, yes, thank you, and thank you
for sharing that. And how important relevant the impact and
your relationship with your daughter.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Yeah, I've been blessed where that's concerned, because you know,
she gets angry at times and she has every right.
She always used to feel bad when she got angry
at me, and I said, you have every rate to
be angry, you know, on so many different levels. But
she's still there. We still we talk every day, well
not every day, like once a week at least, because
(34:59):
I really don't he anything new to share and I'm like, yes,
you know does the day to day doesn't change too much.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
And how at this moment, Well, actually I'll go back.
So you mentioned you're so excited, you were thrilled, but
you know you took the plea deal. So moving forward
into the general population. Okay, when you first begun in
the general population to where we are sitting opposite each
other today, can you talk a little bit about that
(35:28):
transition or what was what happened to you or what
were you going through.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
When I first got up here, they like housed me
by myself just because they were trying for me to
transition from being where I was in the general population,
which was it was okay, but I was used to
having a roommate down in County, So I was like,
can I just get a roommate because I don't like
I did enough time by myself, Like I need people,
(35:55):
don't be to talk to. So the staff was really good.
My counselors were super helpful, like when I was ready
for a roommate, they were like, I'll let you pick
your roommate, you know somebody you're comfortable with. When I
went to get a job, the employment lady that was
here at the time, she was like, are you sure
(36:17):
you want to work right now? You don't want to
just take some time, And I'm like, no, I'm ready
to work. They work with me to get a job
that I wanted to do, So it was I had
a lot of helpful people. I had a lot of
help like they didn't just you know, it was weird
getting adjusted to all the people and like go and
(36:40):
walk in free, like walking to your meals and being
able to go out to the yard with other people
like that was a big adjustment. But I've and it's
so funny I found over the years, like I'm so
used to.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
I don't want to say.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Turning into and I am. It sounds funny, but like
I'm a survivor, Like I can adapt to whatever my
situation is. So when I came out, it was a
little different, but I quickly got myself adjusted to how
things were going to be and how they were acting,
(37:25):
so you know, it was really good. I was able
to go to church. So I was happy about that,
you know, there was I was able to work. So
and actually there's up here like for the most part
up here, like the staff, the officers, like they've all
like I haven't had any problems with any of them.
They've been helpful, they've been you know. I seen the
(37:47):
officers like years later after I came off with death Row,
that we're up there and I was down here and
I was in the dog program with the dog and
They're like, can you imagine? Did you ever imagine this
is what would will be calm? And I'm like no,
And they would say like like I'm really proud of
how you You didn't let yes things you know mold
(38:11):
who you are. So and it's like I always I
like to keep in mind that you can be productive
and I can make my daughter proud by my conduct,
So I'm not looking to get any kind of problems,
Like I can still make her proud even though I'm here.
(38:34):
There's things that I can do here that better my
life or can better somebody else's. You know, I did.
I did the House of Hope, which could you share
with us? That's a program for abuse women, adds impatient treatment.
And actually when I was there, like it really made
(38:56):
me find my my core issues as to why you
know I am now in the choices I made. And
you know, it was a lot of dig in. And
it took me twice to do it because the first
time I was kind of just like, eh, I wasn't
really serious about it. But the second time, you know,
(39:18):
I was serious. I actually you know, you dove into
your childhood and you know, they had us. I remember
they had us write a letter to our abuser. And
we didn't have to send it, let's write it and
then we'd read it.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
And how did you feel about doing that?
Speaker 2 (39:35):
I was I actually I was a little nervous because
I really didn't address a lot of issues. I just
I'm one that I would just like stuff it, sweep
it away, and just go on about my business. But
then that kept me stuck in all my choices I
was making, and you know, and I knew that the
(39:56):
only way to do that was to really look at
look at the hurt, look at the anchor. You know.
So it was it was a whole big process that really,
like after I read the letter, like I felt so
much better reading that letter because It got me to
get out things that I needed to say that I
(40:18):
couldn't say. So it was like it was a really
good release. But it's a super program. I got confidence.
My confidence came back. Like I even seen people when
I came out and they were like, you seem different.
I'm like, yeah, Like I got over the body imaging
like always happened to be done off and like I
(40:40):
was just you know, the weight issues because I had
bad weight issues, so I would, you know, do what
you do to lose the weight. But I got past
all that because I was able to be okay with
just me and I didn't need anybody else or anything
to make me happy. It's all within yourself. So you
(41:03):
know that that really made a difference. When I didn't
have that worry anymore and I could just be it
was it changed everything then and.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
The Puppy Program, because I guess also today is frazzle
Is that correct? Yes, frazzle is down beside your feet.
So yeah, so could you talk a little bit about
the Puppy Program.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
I actually joined the Puppy Program in twenty fourteen. I seen,
you know, someone I worked with, they were in the program,
and I just seen what they were doing, and I
was just like so amazed at what these dogs do
from the time they're little and when they first learned
their name, when they first learned to sit. It's so cute.
(41:51):
Because we used to get dogs when they were little puppies.
We don't know so much anymore.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
But uh.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
I the dog actually give me a sense of purpose,
Like they have a purpose because you're responsible for them.
You're responsible for their training and their everyday care and upkeep.
But in the same sense, it's what they go on
to do for somebody else. Just like makes it all
(42:20):
the better because we would get letters from the people
that have received one of the dogs we trained and
just to hear the difference that they make. It's and plus,
you know, having a dog, it kind of gives you
a little bit of that normal you know, like as
if you were at home and you had your dog.
Even though they're not a pet, they're not supposed to
(42:42):
be out there, no, no, no, but they're they're a
lot of fun. They're a lot of fun, and it
just I get so much out of it that, like
I had to step away because of time constraint. You know,
you're caning to be for so long I'm going to
how to step away, and I missed the dog so
(43:02):
much and I couldn't. They asked me to come back,
and I was like, yeah, I couldn't wait to get back.
I mean, it's a lot of work. Your day never
gets done until they go to bed.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
But babies having met Fressel, absolutely adorable. Okay, I do.
Before we finish up today, we've got a few more
minutes to chat aging in the prison system and then thinking,
if you do think about dying or deaths and dying
(43:39):
in the prison, can you just provide some insight or
your thoughts on that aging.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
I guess aging like it's all about I think too,
like with your mind, Like I can feel myself getting
older where I feel like I can't do like stuff
I used to be able to do. But I try
not to think about like dying in here because you
see so many people that have been here and you
(44:08):
see them pass on, and it's I would rather know
not here, so but I I don't. I don't dwell
on that too much. I like, you know, I filed
for commutation and stuff, so I'm hoping something pans out there,
but if not, it don't you know, you just keep trying.
(44:31):
But uh, I will say though the women that have
passed here like they they made them like for the
most part, they made them comfortable, like the services they
would have for them over at the chapel. You know,
they tried, you try to like they brought some joy
(44:54):
to it, even though it was a sad time. But
I have some ends here, so I don't think it
would be you know, I would worry about being alone
like I would not want.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
That, Yes, I would, you know, but I hear that
from many women. It's the sadness of possibly dying alone
and they don't wish that. Thank you. But before we go,
I always ask the ladies, we've learned a lot about
who you were, and again your journey sitting opposite me today,
(45:27):
But in summary, how do you do how do you
describe the bath that's sitting right here opposite me today?
Speaker 2 (45:36):
I think it's a healed bath. I think it's a
better bath than what I was. Because I was able
to deal with issues. I was able to, you know,
learn how to be that person that I should have
been all that time. My God, I was able to
get that help I need. I was able to do
(45:59):
numerous programs here, Like, there's so much offered to you
here where you can continually better yourself and work on yourself.
So that's pretty much what I've tried to do is
just well, there's always room for improvement. So yeah, but
the experience here, I know a lot of you know,
(46:20):
a lot of people think, oh, it's horrible you're in jail.
But you know, if I wouldn't have came to jail,
I probably would have been probably wouldn't be here at all. Really,
to be honest, and like, it's been a blessing, and
it's weird to say, but really, I didn't I don't
have I didn't don't consider this a bad experience because
(46:42):
I've been able to do so much with myself to
get myself where I needed to be. So it actually
has a it's horrible that you can't be home with
your family, but it's not. I'm sure there's a lot
of worse places as you can be, you know, just
all about your mindset. And that's what I've tried to do,
(47:03):
is just get my mind right.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
Wow, And we could talk for a lot more of.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
Or maybe you could.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
Talk a lot more, be it has been a pleasure.
It's been wonderful to get to know you and wish
you all the very best. Thank you from the butt
of my heart for giving us your time and your
story today.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
You're welcome. I enjoyed it. It was It was very uplifting,
and it's nice that somebody knows that the women aren't forgotten,
you know.
Speaker 4 (47:40):
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for joining
us on another episode of Self Identities Conversations with Convicted Women,
a Fly Impossums production in association with Matter Productions. We
(48:04):
deeply appreciate the support of our listeners and the contributions
from everyone who has made this podcast possible. Your engagement
and encouragement drive us to continue these important conversations until
next time. Take care,
Popular Podcasts
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.