March 4, 2025 • 36 mins
Brenda, now 64, was just 25 when she was first incarcerated. She cherished her childhood on the family farm, surrounded by her siblings, but her life took a dark turn as addiction took hold. Now serving a life sentence, her story is one of nostalgia, struggle, and resilience.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Like to acknowledge for our listeners just upfront that what
you will hear from individual incarcerated women throughout the episode
you may find to be emotionally charged and even disturbing,
So we just want to acknowledge that and make you
aware of that. Furthermore, something that listeners probably don't realize
(00:21):
is that all of our individual conversations with each woman
was recorded inside a maximum security prison, the State Correctional
Institution SCI Munsey in Pennsylvania here in the United States.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
So the noise, there's.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Any chatter, anything in the background. For our listeners just
to understand that we actually recorded inside a prison where
the day goes on. The women, the officers, the staff,
they all have their jobs. Just because we're there, it
doesn't stop or everything becomes quiet. So if you do,
as listeners, hear any background noise, please understand that is
(01:02):
part of being inside a prison. Hello everyone, and thank
you for tuning into our podcast Self Identities Conversations with
(01:22):
Convicted Women. My name is doctor Catherine Whiteley and I'm
a feminist criminologist. Today I'm visiting SCI Muncy, a state
correctional facility for women in Pennsylvania in the United States.
And joining me today is Brenda. Welcome Brenda. Great to
(01:42):
see you. Thank you well, Brenda. We're going to have
a great chat, and I think we'll start with understanding
a little bit about your childhood. So if we could
start going all the way back, if you can remember,
what was your childhood like?
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Okay, as far as far back as I can remember. Well,
I was born and raised on a farm in Hoffman,
North Carolina, along with my five other siblings, and my
childhood was it was fun at home. You know. I
remember playing a lot with my well, I remember my
brother's chasing me around with chicken because we ate everything
(02:22):
out of the backyard, so when they would ring the
chicken's neck, you know, I was always afraid of of dinner.
So but I was spending a lot of time with
my siblings and playing around on the farm. That's my
earliest childhood memory.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
And we there's certain siblings that you go along better
with and love to do certain things.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Probably my brother because I was more of a tomboy.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
And when you think about growing up your parents, can
you talk a little bit about what life was like
on the farm with you parents, and how would you
describe your parents?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
My mom.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
She was the strongest woman I know she was. She
was such a sweetheart. And I say that because at
at an early age my mom and dad were divorced.
I want to say, maybe at the age of six.
And but Mom was she was very attentive, and I
(03:30):
remember she always liked to have what is that the
bread pudding. She will always have bread pudding waiting for
us when we come in from school. And so I
would look forward to getting out of school just so
I can go home and eat the bread pudding. And
she always spent a lot of time with you know,
all of us. We always did family things together. We
(03:52):
were go down to Broad Acres Lake to swim, and
we did a lot of like cooking out in the yards.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
So yeah, and your father, how would you describe him?
Speaker 3 (04:13):
I don't remember him that well. But you know what
I remember of him, It was just loud. He was,
you know, just loud, and he was in and out,
like in and out of our of our lives.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
So I don't remember much about my father.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
What about education, schooling, what was it like and what year?
Speaker 4 (04:37):
What grade did you finish school? Can you tell us?
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Okay, school was fun or grade school?
Speaker 3 (04:47):
But high school was pretty difficult, you know, difficult for me.
So let me back up because when when we moved
from north to Philadelphia, I was twelve years old. So
at twelve, I was in what seventh grade, seventh or
(05:08):
sixth grade, and you know, being a country girl coming
from a you know, one horse town. When I moved
to the city, and everything was just so exciting, and
I remember how light it was, so light, and all
these people.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
So but I didn't realize that I.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Didn't know we were poor, and you know, so the
shoes that I had on my feet, or the clothes
that I had, like we shared my siblings and that
we shared, you know, each other's clothes. So I remember
this one day going to school and I was real
I was excited about these blue sneakers that mom had
just perkished, and they were like three ninety nine at
(05:51):
that time, you know, and I was like, I was happy.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
I put my sneakers on.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
And when I go to school, these kids started singing,
you know, Boba, they make your feet feel fine, and
I thought, oh, you know, oh look at me, like
you know, you know, I was so proud of these sneaks,
not knowing that they were making fun of me because
they were cheap sneakers. So my best friend at that time,
(06:16):
and I'm smelling, I was like, you know, I said
something like I don't know, maybe something silly like oh
I didn't know I was so popular or whatever.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Maybe I didn't say that.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
But along those lines, and she was like, no, Brenda,
she said, they're talking about your shoes, like you know.
And at that moment, I felt like I just wanted
to just crawl up on the rock because I was embarrassed.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
You know, so would I be you know, when kids,
you know made me aware.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Of, like, you know, how raggedy my clothes were or
how cheap my shoes were. Then school wasn't fun anymore.
You know. I started cutting classes, and you know, she
just trying to avoid, you know, being around the popular
kids in school.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
The bullying, yes, the bullying. And how old were you
at that stage?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
See twelve, eleven or twelve?
Speaker 4 (07:10):
And how much longer than did you attend school?
Speaker 3 (07:14):
So I went to high school and I dropped out
in the tenth grade, right, Yeah, I dropped out in
the tenth grade. And because I just never liked school anymore,
I just never I never even really gave you know,
I never gave it a chance. And so Mom was
pretty good with letting us make choices, you know, just
(07:35):
trying to support whatever choices that we made, you know.
And so I decided I wanted to go into job corps.
Speaker 4 (07:42):
And can you explain what that is?
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Job corps? I've to me it was like a I
called it like the baby baby Army. So the definition
of a job corps was you go to it's like
a like college, but you go to this school to
take a trade, yeah, to master a trade.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
And I went at that time for oh what did
I go for? This engineer?
Speaker 3 (08:14):
It was a nursing I think it was nursing nursing
something that I can't right.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
And for how long did you stay there?
Speaker 3 (08:22):
For?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Two months? Really?
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Yes, what happened that two months? For you to walk
away from that? What was going on?
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Well?
Speaker 3 (08:29):
I was in Charleston, West Virginia, and I remember feeling
really homesick. But once again, I didn't give it a chance.
That it was a school setting and there was just
something about the school settings that just I just.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Didn't do well.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Then it was almost like the stigma, the bullying and
everything that you went through.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
It tarnished the education met and growing up.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Just when you go back to that, you mentioned about
your shoes and things like that. Was it this discussion
or what can we say? How obvious was there and
if there was segregation growing up? Would you be able
to talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Yes, which was one of the reasons that we moved to.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Up What is up North? Uh? Up North? I remember.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Mom would take us to this lake, it was called
Broad Acres Lake and get into the lake. We had
to go across from train tracks and through this neighborhood,
which was a white neighborhood. So as we're walking through
the going down the road going to towards the lake,
the white people would you know, throw bricks and rocks
(09:57):
and bottles at us, and it's like, you know, we
don't want your kind down here, so they would try
to chase us, you know, chase us away from going
swimming and going into town. I remember going into town
and I didn't notice find out until later that Mom
always made us set in the car when we went
(10:17):
into town because if we were to encounter a white
person into town, we would have to move off the
sidewalking and they always have the right of way, you know,
or we you know, had to you know, walk with
our head down, so she didn't subject us to that.
So we always had to sit in the car when
(10:39):
we went into town.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
Yeah, how did that make you feel?
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Or maybe now in hindsight when you look back, how
did that make you feel or make you feel today?
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Well, in hindsight, I was clear, it was clear while
we always had to stay in the car. But even
though you know, we endure that kind of treatment from
you know, from certain people, not all people.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Were that way. Yes, And.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
We was never taught at home hate, you know, we
was never taught to hate, you know. We was always
always taught to people, you know, treat people kind and
just you know, some people are just the way that
they are, and you know, you just try not to
deal with those people.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
And now moving forward years later, later on in your life,
before entering the prison system, what was shall we say
Brenda like, how would you describe Brenda before entering the
prison system?
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Brenda grew up to be?
Speaker 3 (11:49):
I said, that's just I'm sorry, Brenda grew up to be.
I just started making really bad choices, you know, before
you know, before I came.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
To jail, and.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Because I always wanted to try to fit in or
to do different things. And I you know, but I
always felt so when I took my first drink, you know,
that drink made me feel like, you know, it gave
me a heart or courage so to the point where
(12:32):
that drink led to you know, stronger drugs. So although
it gave me that courage to do these things, I
never did them because I was, you know, too far
to the left, like I was, you know, just too
too far into drugs to.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
To even you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
I'm trying to say, pursue my dreams or you know,
the dream that I had which I wanted to be.
I wanted to be a nurse at an early age,
and then from being a nurse because I wanted to
travel the world and do different things. So I wanted
to be a long distance truck driver, you know. And
(13:18):
so I just never got to doing those things because
I started making bad choices.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
And how old were you when you entered say you
went to county jail first before coming to the state prison.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Yes, ma'am.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
And how long were you or firstly, how old were
you when you entered county jail? And how long were
you in county jail.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
For I was twenty four when I entered county jail.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
Twenty four. I'm sorry, I was twenty five when I
entered county jail. And I was in the county in
jail for a total of eighteen months before I came
to state prison.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
And if you're able to Brenda, can you share a
little bit about what you personally were going through in
the county jail before coming to the state prison. What
was happening within you or what was I won't say
what was Brenda like, but what was happening to you
that enduring that experience in a county jail because you'd
(14:26):
never been incarcerated before.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
I wasn't sure, and I was maybe in denial or
just hopeful that the trouble that I had gotten myself
into that I was going to get out of it,
because I was still doing the going to court and
you know, going through the court process. So so I
(14:50):
never really I never really like took like a personal
inventory on myself. I didn't any of that until, you know,
coming to state prison, because I guess at that point
I was I was still in denial in the county jail.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Right, Yeah, And then arriving here in sci Muncie all
those years ago. What was Brenda like then and what
was happening going on within Brenda? Say, the first twelve
months of arriving, trying to settle in to this prison.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
It wasn't good, you know, it wasn't good because I
didn't adjust well, you know, I was in and out
of you know it's in there, RHU restrict the housing
unit because I wasn't.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
I didn't follow rules.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Well, I didn't know how I was going to because
I was sentenced to, you know, a life sentence, so
and I just I didn't know how I was going
to do it.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Yes, So.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
I wasn't following the rules. I wasn't you know, listening
to I was just trying to find my way and
I didn't know what I was doing.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Right, How old were you then when you entered Seo
Muncie twenty six.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
And so?
Speaker 1 (16:22):
How long would you say it took you to you know,
go through the challenges to accept or maybe not accept,
but how long did it take you to generally accept
that you are in, you know, inside this prison for
a longer lengthy sentence. Because they talk about women, it
(16:42):
can take up to seven years for women to shall
we say, I work through various issues before they even feel,
you know, at peace to some degree. Round about that
seven year mark, what about.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
You, yes, ma'am. I want to say it was like
a five year old for me. And I remember a
friend of mine, she's no longer here, and I don't
know how the conversation we were talking about. We were
talking about time, and it was like, well, I've been
(17:17):
here for five years already, you know, And when I
said it, it just it, you know, it took me.
It just took me back. I couldn't believe it. I
was like, Wow, it's been five years that I've been here,
and this is you know, I can't, I can't explain it.
(17:41):
But what I'm trying to say, but I wanted to
be better. I wanted to be a better person. I
will just say that.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
And when you think about that, that five years, you know,
as you said, that was a time that was like
this moment.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
Moving forward?
Speaker 1 (18:00):
What changes did you do to make or to become
a better person?
Speaker 3 (18:05):
Well, I started, uh getting involved in a lot of
you know, everything they had to offer here. I did groups.
I joined the choir, I joined the church, I got baptized,
I started volunteering to uh the inmate organization that we
have here. UH. I started uh talking more to my
(18:27):
peers and getting involved with you know, with my peers.
And I still I still was still was having you know, hiccups.
But and I I liked, you know, the change that
was happening. So I think, you know, m by like
uh final you know, the big catalysts for change for
(18:49):
me was I I was in I went into the
House Ofhope, uh program. And a house of Hope is
for a place for abuse women. And I went to
the House of Hope. And I went for the wrong reasons.
I just knew that it was a comfortable place to live,
and you know, I wasn't gonna be bothered down there,
(19:11):
and I just you know, I went there for all
for the wrong reasons.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Well, we were.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Giving this exercise to do and it was writing this
letter to your young self, and so I wrote this letter,
you know, to my young self, and you know, you know,
gave her name, and that letter did it for me.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
That was like my ha ha moment, you know.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
And yeah, I told my younger self, you know, apologize
for the choices that I made in her life, and
I wish things could have been better. And so that
letter just opened up a whole different door from me.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
You know, that was the moment, a moment yeah, when
you if you could, when you you mentioned about that
younger girl, so you think about the younger girl and
forgiveness at that moment when you're writing that letter, How
would you have defined who you were at that moment?
(20:24):
And that's probably a little bit very hard to think about,
but who was writing that letter to that younger girl?
How would you have described her?
Speaker 3 (20:33):
I would describe her today as I wanted to be
that this younger girl's protector, and at that moment, I
felt like that's who I needed to be and that's
who I was going to be for this young.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Yeah self, yes, thank you, thank you for sharing. You're welcome, Brenda.
As the years of progressed. Because you're you're.
Speaker 4 (21:02):
A busy woman.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
By the sounds of things, You're in a lot of
different things. Could you just take us through a couple
of different programs that you mentioned earlier on that you're
involved in, because a lot of people that are listening,
you know it sounds, they may know what it means,
but they really don't like the different couple of different
programs that you've done or you're doing today in.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
More maybe in depth a little bit. Yeah, and you're
about your role.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
Yeah, yes, ma'am. Thinking for a change, which was one
of my favorite groups. Uh, thinking for a change, and
I learned how to think before acting. So and there
was just all these different, you know, different analogies that
(21:51):
that our instructor would use and and it just makes
a lot of sense to me. So instead of just
saying so if if you you you were to give
me a write up for jaywalking, and instead of saying,
you know, I was wrong for jaywalking, then I was like, oh,
(22:14):
you wrote this ticket. You wrote me up for jay
walking because you don't like me, because you you know,
making excuses for instead of just learning how to accept responsibility.
Another one of the groups that I'm currently in, in
fact is ah TC, the therapeutic Therapeutic.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Community.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
What is that entiled? Yes's interesting. Uh.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
The therapeutic community is a drug program, drug and alcohol program,
and it teaches you different total of staying so but
doesn't just mean uh, staying off drugs, that's the main thing.
But it gives you a different thinking tools and uh,
communicating tools and and of course you know, staying clean
(23:08):
and how to be positive and productive.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
And yeah, on that note, if you don't mind, could
we go back. Are you able to share you mentioned
briefly and that you were involved with, you know, was
it drugs and or alcohol? Are you able to tell
us a little bit about what you went through or
(23:35):
the addiction for people that are you know, going through
that stage?
Speaker 3 (23:39):
What?
Speaker 4 (23:39):
What? What was life like for you?
Speaker 1 (23:41):
What did you do when you went through that stage
of shall we say a substance abuse?
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Like I first started off stealing in stores, from stelling
in stores to stealing from you know, it's sad. It
hurts me to this day to say I remember stealing
(24:09):
from my mother, you know, just and turning tricks.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
And then you're here and as you said just before
that you're now in the program that is that sheds
a lot of shall we say light, that helps you
work through and helps you understand that past journey.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
How do you think other women around.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
You are also you know, accepting of this particular program.
What is the field or the environment like that you're
you know in this program?
Speaker 4 (24:49):
What is it with other women?
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Well, it's great because we really it feels like a
community of women uplifting one another.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
And that's what we do. We uplift one another.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
We share stories, you know, we give each other feedback
and support and it's it's great.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
I you're smiling, so it must be good.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
It really is.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
It really is because you know, even just coming here
and I shared with the community, I was like, I'm
going to go and talk to doctor Wheatley about, you know,
in the spot. And they were like, oh, miss Brendan,
that's great, you know that it's great, you know, And
they asked what was it about?
Speaker 2 (25:38):
And I was like this.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
They wanted to know what life was like in you know,
in prison, and what I did to get here, what
I've done while I'm here, and where I am today.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
And it was like, oh, this is great. So really supportive,
really really supportive. Yes.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
And on that note about supportive, what about friendships? Relationships
you know, in a prison such as this, is it hard?
Is it challenging? Is it easy? Over the years? How
would you describe building relationships, building friendships and.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Or so in the Lifeless community?
Speaker 2 (26:21):
And I think I don't know.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
I think it's it's just automatic because we are naturally
just like drawn to one another and like we're like
this or family, you know, so and that's what happens.
(26:44):
So like you know in the jail health family, you
know life or family. We you know, we try to
help each other through difficult times, like if we lose
you know, one of our loved ones. Yes, you know,
because we're never able to say goodbye. So you know,
(27:06):
we're like elephants, you know, and we just get together
just like hold one another and be there for one
another and just you know, to do what we can to,
you know. And you know, in moments like that, we
have you know, just like a family like you would
(27:30):
a family at home. We have our you know, you know,
our misunderstandings, our arguments, and you know what we come
right for our disagreements. But you know we come you
know back together as a family because we really are
a family because a lot of us have been with
one another longer than we've been with our actual family.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
And when you talk about family, do you have a
relationship with any family on the outside or do you
have much communication with people on the outside.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
I do. I do.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
I still have a sister and a brother left that
I am very close to. So I'm getting choked up
about the things. I just lost my sister Phillers. It's
two years ago and she was my that was my girl.
You know, we were very close. We're all very close.
So I still have a brother, sister, nieces and nephews
that I'm in touch with on a DEALI basis.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
I do give visits.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
The I'll get in person visits every now and then,
and I get the video visits.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
So yeah, I still have family.
Speaker 4 (28:42):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Do you ever think about this and dying inside this prison?
Speaker 2 (28:52):
I do, you know?
Speaker 3 (28:55):
More so, I'm getting closer to dying that I am
living because you know, I'm getting up in age.
Speaker 4 (29:01):
Now how old are you again?
Speaker 2 (29:02):
And I'm sixty four.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
Thank you, yes, ma'am.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
And I it's just, you know, it's a normal thing
to think about. And so I've come to uh to
uh terms and you know it's that you know, I may,
you know, die here, you know, so.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
I don't know, you know, I don't you know.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
Just accept the fact that if it, you know, if
I die here, that's what because I am I am
a Christian and I believe, you know, in God, and
I do believe that when it says to be absence
from the body is to be present with God. So
I don't worry about my physical body, you know, when
(29:53):
I die here, I just believe that I'm going to be,
you know, in the presence of God and my soul
will be taking care.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Thank you, because I was going to ask about your
faith or you know, spirituality, Christianity, your belief system here
and you've almost Yeah, is there anything else you'd like
to add about your belief system whilst you're here about Christianity,
christ Is anything you'd like to share about your belief system?
Speaker 3 (30:19):
Yes, I just you know, know that, and that's well,
you know where I get my strength, and I know
that you know, without God that I you know, I
wouldn't be able to.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
God is my strength. God is my strength.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
And I thank God that I am forgiven for you know,
for for being here and the people that I've hurt,
you know, in my life.
Speaker 4 (30:47):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Yeah, because you did mention a bit about your faith
and the strength of that, because I just wanted to
hear a little bit more about that. Thank you, Thank you, Brenda.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
Brenda.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Before we've got to a few minutes left, but before
we go, where do you see in the next few years.
Where do you see, Brenda. I suppose I'm not going
to say heading because you are here in the prison system.
But what lies ahead for Brenda? What will make you
happy moving forward?
Speaker 3 (31:19):
Well, what would make me happy is really if I'm
able to spend time with my family before I leave
this earth, and it would make me very happy. But
if I can't physically be there and spend time with
my family, you know, before I leave this earth, I'm
happy with doing. You know, God's working here. And that's
(31:43):
just like I don't like to say mentoring, mentoring my
younger sisters and the young people to come through. But
today I'm just in a good space with I feel
like I have a purpose and I feel like that
I am helping you know, people just by talking and listening,
(32:05):
and I can't you know, I've learned that you know,
once you truly understand how you've called someone someone else's pain,
that you begin to consider more fully how your actions
affect other people. And once you become aware of how
(32:27):
your actions affect other people, you can't move in a
selfish way anymore.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
It changes you.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
It changes you from being inconsiderate too considerate, and and
that to me is life altering.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
I just want to just.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Be a positive, a positive.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
You know, roll model for you know, for everybody that
I can.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
I'm sure you are. I'm sure you are. But I
also wanted to share the listeners. You're a bit of
a singer, aren't you. No, Oh, thank you very much everyone.
I've heard you sing a little bit, haven't you. Okay, everyone,
she's making a lot of raby now you can you're
(33:28):
singing in a choir with.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
I don't think I have a great voice, though, I
was saying, but I just don't think I'm a great singer.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Well I saw what you've done, or I've seen what
you've done. I think you do have a lovely voice, Brenda,
So thank you. But thank you for calling me out
to miss Brenda about your voice, because I think you
do have a wonderful voice. So we are going to
finish up, Brenda, And you've mentioned so much in such
a short period of time, and we're so grateful for that.
(33:57):
Is there some message for the outside world to hear
from you or to know about you? As we come
to the conclusion of our discussion, is there anything else
you would like them to hear or know about you?
Speaker 3 (34:13):
I truly believe that it's never too it's never too
late to do the right thing. And you put me
on this spot, I told you, and yeah, that's just
(34:35):
it's never too late to do the rat thing.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Well, Brenda, thank you so much. It has been wonderful
talking to you and listening about your journey, even today
whilst you're in Sei Munsey in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Thank you, thank you so much.
Speaker 5 (34:51):
Thank you, thank you for joining us on another episode
of Self Identities Conversations with Convicted Women, a Flying Possums
production in association with Nutter Productions. We deeply appreciate the
(35:14):
support of our listeners and the contributions from everyone who
has made this podcast possible. Your engagement and encouragement drive
us to continue these important conversations until next time.
Speaker 6 (35:28):
Take care.
Speaker 5 (36:00):
He
Like to acknowledge for our listeners just upfront that what
you will hear from individual incarcerated women throughout the episode
you may find to be emotionally charged and even disturbing,
So we just want to acknowledge that and make you
aware of that. Furthermore, something that listeners probably don't realize
(00:21):
is that all of our individual conversations with each woman
was recorded inside a maximum security prison, the State Correctional
Institution SCI Munsey in Pennsylvania here in the United States.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
So the noise, there's.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Any chatter, anything in the background. For our listeners just
to understand that we actually recorded inside a prison where
the day goes on. The women, the officers, the staff,
they all have their jobs. Just because we're there, it
doesn't stop or everything becomes quiet. So if you do,
as listeners, hear any background noise, please understand that is
(01:02):
part of being inside a prison. Hello everyone, and thank
you for tuning into our podcast Self Identities Conversations with
(01:22):
Convicted Women. My name is doctor Catherine Whiteley and I'm
a feminist criminologist. Today I'm visiting SCI Muncy, a state
correctional facility for women in Pennsylvania in the United States.
And joining me today is Brenda. Welcome Brenda. Great to
(01:42):
see you. Thank you well, Brenda. We're going to have
a great chat, and I think we'll start with understanding
a little bit about your childhood. So if we could
start going all the way back, if you can remember,
what was your childhood like?
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Okay, as far as far back as I can remember. Well,
I was born and raised on a farm in Hoffman,
North Carolina, along with my five other siblings, and my
childhood was it was fun at home. You know. I
remember playing a lot with my well, I remember my
brother's chasing me around with chicken because we ate everything
(02:22):
out of the backyard, so when they would ring the
chicken's neck, you know, I was always afraid of of dinner.
So but I was spending a lot of time with
my siblings and playing around on the farm. That's my
earliest childhood memory.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
And we there's certain siblings that you go along better
with and love to do certain things.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Probably my brother because I was more of a tomboy.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
And when you think about growing up your parents, can
you talk a little bit about what life was like
on the farm with you parents, and how would you
describe your parents?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
My mom.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
She was the strongest woman I know she was. She
was such a sweetheart. And I say that because at
at an early age my mom and dad were divorced.
I want to say, maybe at the age of six.
And but Mom was she was very attentive, and I
(03:30):
remember she always liked to have what is that the
bread pudding. She will always have bread pudding waiting for
us when we come in from school. And so I
would look forward to getting out of school just so
I can go home and eat the bread pudding. And
she always spent a lot of time with you know,
all of us. We always did family things together. We
(03:52):
were go down to Broad Acres Lake to swim, and
we did a lot of like cooking out in the yards.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
So yeah, and your father, how would you describe him?
Speaker 3 (04:13):
I don't remember him that well. But you know what
I remember of him, It was just loud. He was,
you know, just loud, and he was in and out,
like in and out of our of our lives.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
So I don't remember much about my father.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
What about education, schooling, what was it like and what year?
Speaker 4 (04:37):
What grade did you finish school? Can you tell us?
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Okay, school was fun or grade school?
Speaker 3 (04:47):
But high school was pretty difficult, you know, difficult for me.
So let me back up because when when we moved
from north to Philadelphia, I was twelve years old. So
at twelve, I was in what seventh grade, seventh or
(05:08):
sixth grade, and you know, being a country girl coming
from a you know, one horse town. When I moved
to the city, and everything was just so exciting, and
I remember how light it was, so light, and all
these people.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
So but I didn't realize that I.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Didn't know we were poor, and you know, so the
shoes that I had on my feet, or the clothes
that I had, like we shared my siblings and that
we shared, you know, each other's clothes. So I remember
this one day going to school and I was real
I was excited about these blue sneakers that mom had
just perkished, and they were like three ninety nine at
(05:51):
that time, you know, and I was like, I was happy.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
I put my sneakers on.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
And when I go to school, these kids started singing,
you know, Boba, they make your feet feel fine, and
I thought, oh, you know, oh look at me, like
you know, you know, I was so proud of these sneaks,
not knowing that they were making fun of me because
they were cheap sneakers. So my best friend at that time,
(06:16):
and I'm smelling, I was like, you know, I said
something like I don't know, maybe something silly like oh
I didn't know I was so popular or whatever.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Maybe I didn't say that.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
But along those lines, and she was like, no, Brenda,
she said, they're talking about your shoes, like you know.
And at that moment, I felt like I just wanted
to just crawl up on the rock because I was embarrassed.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
You know, so would I be you know, when kids,
you know made me aware.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Of, like, you know, how raggedy my clothes were or
how cheap my shoes were. Then school wasn't fun anymore.
You know. I started cutting classes, and you know, she
just trying to avoid, you know, being around the popular
kids in school.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
The bullying, yes, the bullying. And how old were you
at that stage?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
See twelve, eleven or twelve?
Speaker 4 (07:10):
And how much longer than did you attend school?
Speaker 3 (07:14):
So I went to high school and I dropped out
in the tenth grade, right, Yeah, I dropped out in
the tenth grade. And because I just never liked school anymore,
I just never I never even really gave you know,
I never gave it a chance. And so Mom was
pretty good with letting us make choices, you know, just
(07:35):
trying to support whatever choices that we made, you know.
And so I decided I wanted to go into job corps.
Speaker 4 (07:42):
And can you explain what that is?
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Job corps? I've to me it was like a I
called it like the baby baby Army. So the definition
of a job corps was you go to it's like
a like college, but you go to this school to
take a trade, yeah, to master a trade.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
And I went at that time for oh what did
I go for? This engineer?
Speaker 3 (08:14):
It was a nursing I think it was nursing nursing
something that I can't right.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
And for how long did you stay there?
Speaker 3 (08:22):
For?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Two months? Really?
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Yes, what happened that two months? For you to walk
away from that? What was going on?
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Well?
Speaker 3 (08:29):
I was in Charleston, West Virginia, and I remember feeling
really homesick. But once again, I didn't give it a chance.
That it was a school setting and there was just
something about the school settings that just I just.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Didn't do well.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Then it was almost like the stigma, the bullying and
everything that you went through.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
It tarnished the education met and growing up.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Just when you go back to that, you mentioned about
your shoes and things like that. Was it this discussion
or what can we say? How obvious was there and
if there was segregation growing up? Would you be able
to talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Yes, which was one of the reasons that we moved to.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Up What is up North? Uh? Up North? I remember.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Mom would take us to this lake, it was called
Broad Acres Lake and get into the lake. We had
to go across from train tracks and through this neighborhood,
which was a white neighborhood. So as we're walking through
the going down the road going to towards the lake,
the white people would you know, throw bricks and rocks
(09:57):
and bottles at us, and it's like, you know, we
don't want your kind down here, so they would try
to chase us, you know, chase us away from going
swimming and going into town. I remember going into town
and I didn't notice find out until later that Mom
always made us set in the car when we went
(10:17):
into town because if we were to encounter a white
person into town, we would have to move off the
sidewalking and they always have the right of way, you know,
or we you know, had to you know, walk with
our head down, so she didn't subject us to that.
So we always had to sit in the car when
(10:39):
we went into town.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
Yeah, how did that make you feel?
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Or maybe now in hindsight when you look back, how
did that make you feel or make you feel today?
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Well, in hindsight, I was clear, it was clear while
we always had to stay in the car. But even
though you know, we endure that kind of treatment from
you know, from certain people, not all people.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Were that way. Yes, And.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
We was never taught at home hate, you know, we
was never taught to hate, you know. We was always
always taught to people, you know, treat people kind and
just you know, some people are just the way that
they are, and you know, you just try not to
deal with those people.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
And now moving forward years later, later on in your life,
before entering the prison system, what was shall we say
Brenda like, how would you describe Brenda before entering the
prison system?
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Brenda grew up to be?
Speaker 3 (11:49):
I said, that's just I'm sorry, Brenda grew up to be.
I just started making really bad choices, you know, before
you know, before I came.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
To jail, and.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Because I always wanted to try to fit in or
to do different things. And I you know, but I
always felt so when I took my first drink, you know,
that drink made me feel like, you know, it gave
me a heart or courage so to the point where
(12:32):
that drink led to you know, stronger drugs. So although
it gave me that courage to do these things, I
never did them because I was, you know, too far
to the left, like I was, you know, just too
too far into drugs to.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
To even you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
I'm trying to say, pursue my dreams or you know,
the dream that I had which I wanted to be.
I wanted to be a nurse at an early age,
and then from being a nurse because I wanted to
travel the world and do different things. So I wanted
to be a long distance truck driver, you know. And
(13:18):
so I just never got to doing those things because
I started making bad choices.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
And how old were you when you entered say you
went to county jail first before coming to the state prison.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Yes, ma'am.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
And how long were you or firstly, how old were
you when you entered county jail? And how long were
you in county jail.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
For I was twenty four when I entered county jail.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
Twenty four. I'm sorry, I was twenty five when I
entered county jail. And I was in the county in
jail for a total of eighteen months before I came
to state prison.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
And if you're able to Brenda, can you share a
little bit about what you personally were going through in
the county jail before coming to the state prison. What
was happening within you or what was I won't say
what was Brenda like, but what was happening to you
that enduring that experience in a county jail because you'd
(14:26):
never been incarcerated before.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
I wasn't sure, and I was maybe in denial or
just hopeful that the trouble that I had gotten myself
into that I was going to get out of it,
because I was still doing the going to court and
you know, going through the court process. So so I
(14:50):
never really I never really like took like a personal
inventory on myself. I didn't any of that until, you know,
coming to state prison, because I guess at that point
I was I was still in denial in the county jail.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Right, Yeah, And then arriving here in sci Muncie all
those years ago. What was Brenda like then and what
was happening going on within Brenda? Say, the first twelve
months of arriving, trying to settle in to this prison.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
It wasn't good, you know, it wasn't good because I
didn't adjust well, you know, I was in and out
of you know it's in there, RHU restrict the housing
unit because I wasn't.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
I didn't follow rules.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Well, I didn't know how I was going to because
I was sentenced to, you know, a life sentence, so
and I just I didn't know how I was going
to do it.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Yes, So.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
I wasn't following the rules. I wasn't you know, listening
to I was just trying to find my way and
I didn't know what I was doing.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Right, How old were you then when you entered Seo
Muncie twenty six.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
And so?
Speaker 1 (16:22):
How long would you say it took you to you know,
go through the challenges to accept or maybe not accept,
but how long did it take you to generally accept
that you are in, you know, inside this prison for
a longer lengthy sentence. Because they talk about women, it
(16:42):
can take up to seven years for women to shall
we say, I work through various issues before they even feel,
you know, at peace to some degree. Round about that
seven year mark, what about.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
You, yes, ma'am. I want to say it was like
a five year old for me. And I remember a
friend of mine, she's no longer here, and I don't
know how the conversation we were talking about. We were
talking about time, and it was like, well, I've been
(17:17):
here for five years already, you know, And when I
said it, it just it, you know, it took me.
It just took me back. I couldn't believe it. I
was like, Wow, it's been five years that I've been here,
and this is you know, I can't, I can't explain it.
(17:41):
But what I'm trying to say, but I wanted to
be better. I wanted to be a better person. I
will just say that.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
And when you think about that, that five years, you know,
as you said, that was a time that was like
this moment.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
Moving forward?
Speaker 1 (18:00):
What changes did you do to make or to become
a better person?
Speaker 3 (18:05):
Well, I started, uh getting involved in a lot of
you know, everything they had to offer here. I did groups.
I joined the choir, I joined the church, I got baptized,
I started volunteering to uh the inmate organization that we
have here. UH. I started uh talking more to my
(18:27):
peers and getting involved with you know, with my peers.
And I still I still was still was having you know, hiccups.
But and I I liked, you know, the change that
was happening. So I think, you know, m by like
uh final you know, the big catalysts for change for
(18:49):
me was I I was in I went into the
House Ofhope, uh program. And a house of Hope is
for a place for abuse women. And I went to
the House of Hope. And I went for the wrong reasons.
I just knew that it was a comfortable place to live,
and you know, I wasn't gonna be bothered down there,
(19:11):
and I just you know, I went there for all
for the wrong reasons.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Well, we were.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Giving this exercise to do and it was writing this
letter to your young self, and so I wrote this letter,
you know, to my young self, and you know, you know,
gave her name, and that letter did it for me.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
That was like my ha ha moment, you know.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
And yeah, I told my younger self, you know, apologize
for the choices that I made in her life, and
I wish things could have been better. And so that
letter just opened up a whole different door from me.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
You know, that was the moment, a moment yeah, when
you if you could, when you you mentioned about that
younger girl, so you think about the younger girl and
forgiveness at that moment when you're writing that letter, How
would you have defined who you were at that moment?
(20:24):
And that's probably a little bit very hard to think about,
but who was writing that letter to that younger girl?
How would you have described her?
Speaker 3 (20:33):
I would describe her today as I wanted to be
that this younger girl's protector, and at that moment, I
felt like that's who I needed to be and that's
who I was going to be for this young.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Yeah self, yes, thank you, thank you for sharing. You're welcome, Brenda.
As the years of progressed. Because you're you're.
Speaker 4 (21:02):
A busy woman.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
By the sounds of things, You're in a lot of
different things. Could you just take us through a couple
of different programs that you mentioned earlier on that you're
involved in, because a lot of people that are listening,
you know it sounds, they may know what it means,
but they really don't like the different couple of different
programs that you've done or you're doing today in.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
More maybe in depth a little bit. Yeah, and you're
about your role.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
Yeah, yes, ma'am. Thinking for a change, which was one
of my favorite groups. Uh, thinking for a change, and
I learned how to think before acting. So and there
was just all these different, you know, different analogies that
(21:51):
that our instructor would use and and it just makes
a lot of sense to me. So instead of just
saying so if if you you you were to give
me a write up for jaywalking, and instead of saying,
you know, I was wrong for jaywalking, then I was like, oh,
(22:14):
you wrote this ticket. You wrote me up for jay
walking because you don't like me, because you you know,
making excuses for instead of just learning how to accept responsibility.
Another one of the groups that I'm currently in, in
fact is ah TC, the therapeutic Therapeutic.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Community.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
What is that entiled? Yes's interesting. Uh.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
The therapeutic community is a drug program, drug and alcohol program,
and it teaches you different total of staying so but
doesn't just mean uh, staying off drugs, that's the main thing.
But it gives you a different thinking tools and uh,
communicating tools and and of course you know, staying clean
(23:08):
and how to be positive and productive.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
And yeah, on that note, if you don't mind, could
we go back. Are you able to share you mentioned
briefly and that you were involved with, you know, was
it drugs and or alcohol? Are you able to tell
us a little bit about what you went through or
(23:35):
the addiction for people that are you know, going through
that stage?
Speaker 3 (23:39):
What?
Speaker 4 (23:39):
What? What was life like for you?
Speaker 1 (23:41):
What did you do when you went through that stage
of shall we say a substance abuse?
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Like I first started off stealing in stores, from stelling
in stores to stealing from you know, it's sad. It
hurts me to this day to say I remember stealing
(24:09):
from my mother, you know, just and turning tricks.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
And then you're here and as you said just before
that you're now in the program that is that sheds
a lot of shall we say light, that helps you
work through and helps you understand that past journey.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
How do you think other women around.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
You are also you know, accepting of this particular program.
What is the field or the environment like that you're
you know in this program?
Speaker 4 (24:49):
What is it with other women?
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Well, it's great because we really it feels like a
community of women uplifting one another.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
And that's what we do. We uplift one another.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
We share stories, you know, we give each other feedback
and support and it's it's great.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
I you're smiling, so it must be good.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
It really is.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
It really is because you know, even just coming here
and I shared with the community, I was like, I'm
going to go and talk to doctor Wheatley about, you know,
in the spot. And they were like, oh, miss Brendan,
that's great, you know that it's great, you know, And
they asked what was it about?
Speaker 2 (25:38):
And I was like this.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
They wanted to know what life was like in you know,
in prison, and what I did to get here, what
I've done while I'm here, and where I am today.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
And it was like, oh, this is great. So really supportive,
really really supportive. Yes.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
And on that note about supportive, what about friendships? Relationships
you know, in a prison such as this, is it hard?
Is it challenging? Is it easy? Over the years? How
would you describe building relationships, building friendships and.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Or so in the Lifeless community?
Speaker 2 (26:21):
And I think I don't know.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
I think it's it's just automatic because we are naturally
just like drawn to one another and like we're like
this or family, you know, so and that's what happens.
(26:44):
So like you know in the jail health family, you
know life or family. We you know, we try to
help each other through difficult times, like if we lose
you know, one of our loved ones. Yes, you know,
because we're never able to say goodbye. So you know,
(27:06):
we're like elephants, you know, and we just get together
just like hold one another and be there for one
another and just you know, to do what we can to,
you know. And you know, in moments like that, we
have you know, just like a family like you would
(27:30):
a family at home. We have our you know, you know,
our misunderstandings, our arguments, and you know what we come
right for our disagreements. But you know we come you
know back together as a family because we really are
a family because a lot of us have been with
one another longer than we've been with our actual family.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
And when you talk about family, do you have a
relationship with any family on the outside or do you
have much communication with people on the outside.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
I do. I do.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
I still have a sister and a brother left that
I am very close to. So I'm getting choked up
about the things. I just lost my sister Phillers. It's
two years ago and she was my that was my girl.
You know, we were very close. We're all very close.
So I still have a brother, sister, nieces and nephews
that I'm in touch with on a DEALI basis.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
I do give visits.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
The I'll get in person visits every now and then,
and I get the video visits.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
So yeah, I still have family.
Speaker 4 (28:42):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Do you ever think about this and dying inside this prison?
Speaker 2 (28:52):
I do, you know?
Speaker 3 (28:55):
More so, I'm getting closer to dying that I am
living because you know, I'm getting up in age.
Speaker 4 (29:01):
Now how old are you again?
Speaker 2 (29:02):
And I'm sixty four.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
Thank you, yes, ma'am.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
And I it's just, you know, it's a normal thing
to think about. And so I've come to uh to
uh terms and you know it's that you know, I may,
you know, die here, you know, so.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
I don't know, you know, I don't you know.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
Just accept the fact that if it, you know, if
I die here, that's what because I am I am
a Christian and I believe, you know, in God, and
I do believe that when it says to be absence
from the body is to be present with God. So
I don't worry about my physical body, you know, when
(29:53):
I die here, I just believe that I'm going to be,
you know, in the presence of God and my soul
will be taking care.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Thank you, because I was going to ask about your
faith or you know, spirituality, Christianity, your belief system here
and you've almost Yeah, is there anything else you'd like
to add about your belief system whilst you're here about Christianity,
christ Is anything you'd like to share about your belief system?
Speaker 3 (30:19):
Yes, I just you know, know that, and that's well,
you know where I get my strength, and I know
that you know, without God that I you know, I
wouldn't be able to.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
God is my strength. God is my strength.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
And I thank God that I am forgiven for you know,
for for being here and the people that I've hurt,
you know, in my life.
Speaker 4 (30:47):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Yeah, because you did mention a bit about your faith
and the strength of that, because I just wanted to
hear a little bit more about that. Thank you, Thank you, Brenda.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
Brenda.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Before we've got to a few minutes left, but before
we go, where do you see in the next few years.
Where do you see, Brenda. I suppose I'm not going
to say heading because you are here in the prison system.
But what lies ahead for Brenda? What will make you
happy moving forward?
Speaker 3 (31:19):
Well, what would make me happy is really if I'm
able to spend time with my family before I leave
this earth, and it would make me very happy. But
if I can't physically be there and spend time with
my family, you know, before I leave this earth, I'm
happy with doing. You know, God's working here. And that's
(31:43):
just like I don't like to say mentoring, mentoring my
younger sisters and the young people to come through. But
today I'm just in a good space with I feel
like I have a purpose and I feel like that
I am helping you know, people just by talking and listening,
(32:05):
and I can't you know, I've learned that you know,
once you truly understand how you've called someone someone else's pain,
that you begin to consider more fully how your actions
affect other people. And once you become aware of how
(32:27):
your actions affect other people, you can't move in a
selfish way anymore.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
It changes you.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
It changes you from being inconsiderate too considerate, and and
that to me is life altering.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
I just want to just.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Be a positive, a positive.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
You know, roll model for you know, for everybody that
I can.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
I'm sure you are. I'm sure you are. But I
also wanted to share the listeners. You're a bit of
a singer, aren't you. No, Oh, thank you very much everyone.
I've heard you sing a little bit, haven't you. Okay, everyone,
she's making a lot of raby now you can you're
(33:28):
singing in a choir with.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
I don't think I have a great voice, though, I
was saying, but I just don't think I'm a great singer.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Well I saw what you've done, or I've seen what
you've done. I think you do have a lovely voice, Brenda,
So thank you. But thank you for calling me out
to miss Brenda about your voice, because I think you
do have a wonderful voice. So we are going to
finish up, Brenda, And you've mentioned so much in such
a short period of time, and we're so grateful for that.
(33:57):
Is there some message for the outside world to hear
from you or to know about you? As we come
to the conclusion of our discussion, is there anything else
you would like them to hear or know about you?
Speaker 3 (34:13):
I truly believe that it's never too it's never too
late to do the right thing. And you put me
on this spot, I told you, and yeah, that's just
(34:35):
it's never too late to do the rat thing.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Well, Brenda, thank you so much. It has been wonderful
talking to you and listening about your journey, even today
whilst you're in Sei Munsey in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Thank you, thank you so much.
Speaker 5 (34:51):
Thank you, thank you for joining us on another episode
of Self Identities Conversations with Convicted Women, a Flying Possums
production in association with Nutter Productions. We deeply appreciate the
(35:14):
support of our listeners and the contributions from everyone who
has made this podcast possible. Your engagement and encouragement drive
us to continue these important conversations until next time.
Speaker 6 (35:28):
Take care.
Speaker 5 (36:00):
He
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