February 11, 2025 • 45 mins
Celeste, a vibrant only child who once cherished life’s joys, has spent the last 30 years behind bars. Now 73, she was incarcerated at the age of 43, facing a life sentence without parole. Her story is one of resilience, reflection, and the complexities of a life forever changed.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
We'd like to acknowledge for our listeners just upfront that
what you will hear from individual incarcerated women throughout the
episode you may find to be emotionally charged and even disturbing,
So we just want to acknowledge that and make you
aware of that. Furthermore, something that listeners probably don't realize
(00:23):
is that all of our individual conversations with each woman
was recorded inside a maximum security prison, the State Correctional
Institution SCI Munsey in Pennsylvania here in the United States.
So the noise, there's any chatter, anything in the background.
(00:44):
For our listeners, just to understand that we actually recorded
inside a prison where the day goes on. The women,
the officers, the staff, they all have their jobs. Just
because we're there, it doesn't stop or everything becomes quiet.
So if you do listeners hear any background noise, please
understand that is part of being inside a prison. Hello everyone,
(01:18):
and thank you for tuning into our podcast Self Identities
Conversations with Convicted Women. My name is doctor Catherine Whiteley
and I'm a feminist criminologist. Today I am visiting SCI Muncy,
a state correctional facility for women in Pennsylvania in the
(01:39):
United States and joining me today is Celeste. Welcome Celeste.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
It is our pleasure lovely to see you. And today
we have a conversation about your past and your present life. Okay, yes, okay,
so let's get started. So what I'd like to ask
is that how old were you when you entered the
prison system and how old are you today? Before we
(02:09):
go and talk about your childhood.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
I was forty three years old when I came and
next month I'll be seventy three.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Well, happy birthday for next month.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Okay, So what we're going to do, Celeste, is what
I'm going to do is ask you could we go
back to where were you born your childhood? Just a
little bit of conversation about growing up.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Well, I was born in Brooklyn, New York, Bethel Hospital, Brownsville,
and I'm an old child and my mother, she was
like my backbone of almost everything. My dad was a
pretty hard worker, so Harley was never around, always in
other countries building houses. Yes, and him and my uncle
(02:57):
would build a house from the foundation up. But I
was always a very happy and jolly little child, and
my mother always had me share everything with everybody because
I was by myself and I liked being here by myself.
It was fun. I had control over the whole house.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
You sound you're a bit spoilt there, miss. Yes.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
My mother told me that I was a spoiled brad.
Yes you did.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Did your mother have a nickname for you?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
She always called me mommy, which meant love right, Yes,
so that's all she was sis mommy? Did mommy dad?
If I was in trouble, I would get called the
whole name.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
I'm not going to go down that path. So, Celeste,
when you were growing up, as you say, and you're
an only child, what about schooling and education?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Well, majority of my teachers always put on my report
card very talkative, very active, not shy. I wasn't shy. Well,
they was like she likes to all the time, do everything,
Like I would clean the boards, clean down the black boards,
(04:13):
and then shake off the races. I was just a
busy little something and I always liked drawing, and so
I used to draw everything. And I would sit when
I was supposed to be listening to the teacher, and
I draw, like the sky, the trucks, the trains, the
buses is going by, cars going by people going by laughing,
and I would make faces. And I was not really
(04:36):
how you say, attentive. I liked moving around. I couldn't
keep still. It was like I was hyperactive with something.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
And so those creative skills. Are you still drawing? Painting?
Which for today? Can you tell us a little bit
about that before we go back to your childhood today?
Speaker 2 (04:56):
I crochet. I can crochet everything, including helicopter. The only
thing I can't crochet is the motor. And yes, I
draw and I paint over. I used to paint a
lot over in the activities department, Okay, And I still draw.
And I make cards, greeting cards, all kinds, birthday anniversaries,
(05:19):
fun cards, just for the children. I put Donald Duck,
Mickey Mouse. They don't even know them because they don't
show them on TV anymore, and they're like, well, who's
this bugs bunny?
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Yeah, so you still you've carried through.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
I am still doing it right, and I'm a clown.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
I think you're more of a fun person because I like.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
To joke more like all the time being sad.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Right, we're going to touch on some of those experiences,
but let's go back to your childhood. A game so
your teen years, what level of education did you complete?
Speaker 2 (05:55):
I did? I have associate's degree in trail early childhood education,
do you yes? And then I went to school for
medical assistant. And that was the last job that I kept,
was staying with the medical assistant. But I always liked
to going to school because I just liked the education.
So then I did a dental lab technician. So I'm
(06:16):
also a dental lab technician. I specialized in parcelain and
gold partials for your dentures. I did that. Oh, and
I started out first as a nurse's aid and I
would work like in the home health aid classrooms like
(06:37):
and go to homes and health the elderly or sick people.
I did a good tracheotomy cleaning and stuff like that.
So I was always doing something. I just never would
just sit still. That was not good for me. My
mother kept me busy.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Well, i'll tell you what I can see that now.
Sitting still help with with you. It's very hard, Okay,
So let's keep thinking moving forward a little bit. In
your twenties, so you're like teens in your twenties, could
you talk to us a bit about that?
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Okay? So when I was thirteen years old, Star Trek
came out. That kept me still. I enjoyed watching Star Trek.
So my mom went and bought me a portable color
TV so I could see Star Trek in color. Because
she kept telling everybody, s, let's love some space movies,
(07:30):
and so I was like a trekkie. I wasn't allowed
to go out, no boyfriends, no of that. But that
was not no. That was not even my mother's looking
or my father. They were you ain't going nowhere. So
I really got involved in television. So I watched TV
a lot. By the time I was getting ready to
(07:52):
graduate high school, though, I didn't have nobody take me
to the prom. And that's when mother I said, well,
I don't have no no boyfriends or no men in
my life. I am supposed to go to prom by myself.
She said, no, your father's taking you. So my father
took me to my prom.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
How did you feel? How did you feel?
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Like a growing up? Everybody loved him. So he was
so sharp. He was a fine, good looking man, you know,
so there was I was that was like, okay, they
was kind of jealous because I had a grown man.
Let me see what else about me? That I liked.
In my teenagehood, well, I did a lot of babysitting.
(08:37):
I was supposed to graduate high school earlier because I
had done a lot of curriculums that were extra credit.
And so what happened was my mother didn't want you
want to come to graduation in February because she wanted
to get dressed up. So I went to the counselor
asked her, is this something I could do besides graduating
(08:58):
in the fall out in the win the time? I
wanted to graduate in the summer so my mother could
get dressed up. And I was talking to the chunselor,
so we found there was this program called the co
ed program. Can I tell you that I went to
Georgia w Wingate High School?
Speaker 1 (09:14):
You can, You haven't, but you can suit me.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Okay, So I did. It was the same high school
that Dandy k graduated from. So I was kind of
proud about that because he was a movie star and
I liked him. He was he was silly and goofy.
I liked that. So then Mayor John B. Lindsey was
the first job I had as a teenager. Yes, I
(09:39):
got on the co op program where you go to
work one week and go to school one week in
order to stay in school so I could graduate in June.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Wow, congratulations, thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
And so while working with Mayor Lindsay's crew, I should
say who was it h because ker Krusky Conte all
of them were there. They were good guys, and the
secretary she kept showing me how to do extra stuff
on the job, so I was able to take the
(10:14):
play out. It was a machine that signed John B.
Lindsay's signature.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
And I learned how to use that machine to sign
this skit chut. And I was doing all the fair male,
and you know you have to type out and answer
the fair male and set envelopes and stuff. I felt
very grown.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Well, yeah, it sounded like you did a lot of
different things going up, didn't you through those teen to
lateteen years.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
I did because my mother knew to keep me busy.
I was very hyper, very hyper. But we didn't take
medicine and stuff like that. Children wasn't given medicine. I
was born in nineteen fifty one, and we were taught
to listen, be still, you know what I'm saying. Children
to be seen and not heard. So I kept myself
(11:02):
busy also, and so going to work for me and
Lizy was like, oh oh, I was very proud.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
It's an achievement.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
It was very much an achievement. Two, I was invited
to Gracie Manchin.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Well, that's an experience in itself. Some other time we'll
have to talk more about that. But let's keep going
because I think, you know, all of this shares your
experience and as you say, the energy and the interest
you have in learning more than beyond. But I want
to just ask you about your mom and your dad,
(11:41):
you know, and how would you describe their personalities, you know,
and your relationship individually.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
My mother is sweet, was well, I'll keep written to
saying it. It's like she's here because I hear her
in mean. But my mother was very sweet, very helpful,
always did everything for the neighborhood. She was a missionary
and she would just work the church, go to school.
(12:09):
She went to school her own self while I was
still going to school, and she went to a Thomas
Jefferson High School and I was there when she graduated.
But her and my dad both were children of the
depression time. They were born in nineteen twenty nine and
they swore off certain things that they would never let
(12:32):
happen to them as adults. So they grew up like
brother and sister more than a husband and wife. Teen
they were best friends truly anyway. My dad he was
a little more stern, but he reminds you of Felix's unger,
(12:53):
always cleaning and always tiring things. He didn't like anything
out of place. Everything had a place, and every place
had a face. And my mother she will always go
see so you could do that yourself. And so with
the two of them around and me, I was like,
like when they get into a midst of the standing
(13:15):
with each other or disagreement, I would sit in the
middle and just wait for the next work to say
something to that. It was not nice. And my mother
would say, go in your room. I was like, oh boy,
I mean he's just gonna get hot. So I hap right.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
But isn't it funny? How you know? Not funny, but
it's it's lovely to hear that you really did have
a lovely life.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
They made me into a good child. I was a
good child, I was a good teenager, and I was
a good adult. Yes, I truly, I truly am a
good adult. Yes, because my mother and father always gave
me a chance to speak up and say what was
on my mind. If they didn't like what I was saying,
they would say, this is how you should say it,
(14:01):
or this is what you should have done. Celeste, you
don't do it that way, And that showed me how
to do it the right way. Yes, or speak my mother.
I had one incident when I was in junior high school.
I had a teacher that made me upset because my
mother taught me how to do division. He didn't want
(14:22):
me to do division the way my mother taught me.
He wanted me to do the division the way he
showed me. But the way he showed me was like
taking forever to get the answer the way my mother
showed me. I got to the point right. Yeah, So
it was just certain things.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
So what about moving forward then, Celeste? In your twenties
and thirties, what was life? What was your life like then?
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Okay, so I got pregnant when I finished my first
year of college. I got pregnant at eighteen, and they
had my son, and my mother and my father both
of them stepped right in. It took care of them,
and then my aunt. I have an aunt. She was
close to my mother. They were close sisters. And so then,
(15:13):
like I said, I went back to school. So I
went back to school and I started doing the early
child education. So that's what I did after I had
my son, and I worked for New York City House
and Authority. That was my part time job. When I
finished with the early child Education course, I went on
(15:37):
to become a full time worker for the New York
City House and Authority. Yeah, Mayor Lindsay had gotten voted out,
so no longer was I able to work there because
his whole crew was scattered all over New York City
with other jobs, any city job that was available, that's
where they put us, right. I went into the New
(16:02):
York Army Guards because I liked it, the the insurance
that they had offered at the time, and with me
have being an unwead mother, I said that this would help,
not with just because my mother and father was doing
everything and so I didn't want them to have to
keep holding me and my son down. So I went
(16:23):
to the New York Army Guards.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
And what was that experience? Like, what did you do?
It was?
Speaker 2 (16:28):
It was a how you say, I would call it
like a shocking experience because you're really the only woman
at that time. Come on, it was nineteen seventy four.
You're the only woman really at that time that was
stationed with a bunch of men, and so a lot
(16:49):
of times you had to take their jokes. So they
kid you, you know, and whatever, you have to blow
it off, let it roll what they used to Well
the stuff they said it wasn't very nice. Well you
let it roll off your back like a duct and
all this. But you know, yes, I became patoon leader.
(17:11):
So we did a lot of ceremonial events and I
carried the flag. I was the flag woman. And as
a matter of fact, the last ceremony we had was
for leider Horn and that was exciting, maybe very nervous,
but it was exciting. And that's what that's what I did.
(17:32):
I mostly was like in communications, right, I talk a
lot still on the report card, it's very talking to you.
So that's that's what I did in the New York
Army Guards.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
And family growing up, Like when you said you had
a son, you were able to talk about relationships, families,
you know, mm hmm. Yeah. It's always when you're sitting
here and reflecting on your journey. No, doubt is challenging,
you know what I mean, and brings up raw emotions,
(18:11):
doesn't it, Yes, it does, it does. Yeah. So moving along,
and we're not going to talk about the crime or criminality.
But if people are wanting to know who was celested
prior to the crime being committed, let's say that, how
would you describe her? Then? What was happening to her
her life that took her to that next step?
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Oh boy? Oh. I was trying to be a good partner.
I was trying to be a good partner and a
good friend. I was trying to be very understanding to
this person's life. Stills, they didn't really have a good
(18:57):
family background. A few people that we had met together
kept time with me. So let's this is jealousy, this
is not this is not a love relationship. You should
get out of it now. But I felt like I
needed to help them. So I really I'm here because
(19:18):
I tried to help.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Them, right, Thank you?
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Yeah, thank you God. I kept dragging them, rather they
was dragging me down, but I kept trying to pull
them up. My family kept saying, you can't beat the
dead horse, and you can't lead the horse. To the well,
well he could drink He's God, can't make him drink
the water. They were saying all kinds of stuff my pastor.
(19:46):
My pastor was very upset with me. The neighbors didn't
care for him at all. He kept he just kept
doing stuff. But I expect ain't to them that he
didn't come from a really good background. I was really
trying to help him, but it didn't turn out right.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
So let's you know, when you talk about trying to help,
do you find that that's who you were from a
little girl all the way through, trying to help people,
always always being there. Yeah, yeah, trying to help and yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Well I watched my mother help so many people, okay,
and I seen how well those people turned out. So
I was like, oh, I could do that. That's something
I know I'm able to do. But it doesn't always
work that way. If they don't want the help, they're
not taking it. I don't care what you give them. Unfortunately,
(20:43):
this person said they was never going to be happy,
and I was like, what, I'm a happy person. And
that's when I made in my mind that I needed
to get away. Yeah, And it took a long time
for me to get that that I need to go.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
So, Celeste, thank you, thank you. If we talk a
little bit moving forward now years when you were first incarcerated,
now I will assume that you went to a county
jail first, is that correct? And then you came to
sci Muncie, the state correctional facility here today, can you
(21:24):
share with our listeners what was your experience going through
the sentencing and then the county jail, you know, you know,
what was it like for you? And then we'll talk
about where you are today.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
County is horrible. I don't know what it was about me.
I don't know what it was, but I think it's
my prosersonality that made my The officers and the warden
(22:05):
at my county, they it was like they felt like
I just wanted to nitpick at me. The slang is
got you under the scope, putting their finger at you,
saying all kinds of stuff. What they didn't realize was
(22:26):
I'm the kind of I've built myself to the point
where I could take a joke, I can take criticism
pretty well. I can take being calling me names. I
could take that, like I said when I was younger,
but well, for real, my cousin was my Bible stay
(22:47):
teaching when I was six and seven, and she's to
always say to me, the names that they calling me
is probably what they are. So I kept that. So
when I got into County, the stuff that it was
saying about me, I said, I said to myself, I said, oh,
that's what they are, That's how they are. But they
weren't good. They weren't good at me. They would allow
(23:09):
me to use the bathroom. They called me the big black,
crazy lady and burly woman and all kinds of crazy words.
And I was like, I'm one of those things.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
How long will you? Thank you? How long were you
celesting the county jail before coming to the state.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Prisons eleven and a half months.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Right, and then moving forward, you come here, tesce I, Nancie,
What was the first year or two like for you?
If you can reflect upon that.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
When I first got here, I was just scared. I
didn't know how to be in jail. I'd never been
to jail, never been arrested. I didn't know what to do.
So I stayed in the cell and the officers, the
officers kept coming to the door asking me, why are
you sitting here? I said, because I don't know what
to do. And so one officer was kind. She said, well,
(24:04):
would you like to have a detail. And I was like, well,
what's the detail? She said, a job. I said, yes,
that's what I need. I need a job because I'm
used to getting up going to work. I said, this
is horrible, just sitting in the cell thinking about everything.
And she said, well one NIGHTE click the door, I
want you to come out. I said, okay, okay. So
(24:26):
that made me come around a little bit because I
was really scared and you know what to do here
When she clicked the door and I came out, and
she took me upstairs in the back in the closet,
opened it up and it was wreck and she said,
do you think you can handle this? I said, well,
what do you want me to do? She said, I
(24:48):
want you to put these in order of sizes. These
are uniforms. I want the shirts head, the pants head
this here and this here, the towers, the gowns, the robes.
I was like, I got this.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
I bet you would.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
And I was like, I rue, and I don't wait in
the closet and I did everything. Yes. About two hours
later she came back and She stood in the doorway
and I was like, down on the bottom shelf putting
these raggedy things that weren't you know you could wear them?
So I put him in the blast and bag and
I was putting one of them and she came to
(25:26):
the doing She said, what are you doing down there?
I said, these are the clothes that I think need
to go and condemn him, and she looked at me.
She said, we don't condemn him. I said, oh, well,
do you want me to sew them up? Because I
can sew good and she said no, we don't want
you to do that either. And then she said you
did a wonderful job here. What else would you like
(25:47):
to do? I said I like to cook and she
was like, oh okay. So back then they used to
bring the hotch tables over and we would bring the
food and do the food there because we were in classification.
So I was I was constantly visiting and I started
moving around. Then the lieutenant came and came to the
(26:08):
door one evening. He said, you need to come out
of there, because I understand you now I played volleyball,
and I was like, yes, I do. Now he said, well,
you need to come on out. We need we need
a captain. I was like, okay, so that's that here.
That made me feel useful. That's the word.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
I could use you for this, and I could use
you for that. And I got to go back to volleyballs. Yes,
you really like to play it?
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Really?
Speaker 1 (26:38):
I was good, isn't that? And again, how long did
you play volleyball?
Speaker 2 (26:48):
I played volleyball up until we got the We started
doing floor hockey down in our gym, right that was
that must have been about fifty two years old. Yeah,
when I started, well, I wasn't really playing volleyball. We
was playing. I was doing more floor hockey was inside,
(27:10):
it was beautiful. And then before that we was playing whiffleball.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Really you got no idea what that is. But it's
the plastic bat with the plastic balls. You you're not
supposed to steal bases and stuff, but I did. Yeah,
I'm a team player. Yeah that's it sounds like it.
(27:36):
Never put me on a team with useless we're gonna win. Well,
but actually that's true. That's a scary part trateating.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
We can win.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
But so let's let's keep going to this. And I
wanted to, you know, because that's an interesting piece about
the sport. You know, you enjoyment there, but share with
us a little bit about us. The years progressed and
how long have you been here?
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Now this is thirty years for me here.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Okay, So in that moving forward into that, you know,
halfway through this sentence, you know, how have you changed
or how have you you know, managed your life, you know,
moving forward, you know, fifteen years later to where you
are today.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
I only learned a lesson twelve years ago because I
still had that helping people imming. I got myself from
trouble because a young lady had she had taken yarn
from an activities department. I didn't know it. She needed
somebody to finish or crochet her blanket. I don't mean
(28:42):
to brag a boast on ean the lord. I crochet excellently,
a professional. So I took the blanket from her and
I told my officer of my unit that I was
going to finish this blanket for this person. So anyway,
I was crocheting, and the search team came and they
(29:03):
confiscated the blanket. But this young lady has said that
she had to permit and she had to receipt for
the yarn, but I didn't, so I got to write
up for having the yarn in my you know, my possession.
That's when I learned my lesson.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
And crush shame. I have to go back to that.
My mother and grandmother loved to do that. Yes, indeed,
it's a skill.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
And I make the best doilies with the cotton tan
thread because that's what my grandaunt taught us when we
were little children, how to make the doorllies, because she
would take them and we would make them all white,
and she would take them out and they would be
the ones that the church would take right, And we
made the doillies to go on the back of the
heads for the ushers and the nurses in our church. Okay,
(29:56):
so you know I was, I did it check aboard
blanket for this woman? Yeah. Yeah, that's when I learned
my lesson to stop helping everybody. Stop doing that. You
have to be secrete about who you help, etcetera, etcetera.
Because me, I'm like a lot of times only even
(30:19):
volunteer myself. It just happens they need help or help them.
Why aren't you helping them?
Speaker 1 (30:26):
You know? And yeah, I'm still into that crocheting piece
I think that's not a lot of people say, well,
what is the doorley today?
Speaker 2 (30:36):
So they keep the st off your table. You don't
really need a coaster, and you put your lamp on
a nice pretty doyly put your lamp there. Your vase
is on the middle of the table, and you have
a runner down the side down middle, and you set
out for Christmas, you set out for Thanksgiving and Easter,
and the tables all fuzzy wuddards.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Hey, we're on the same page as that together. That's funny,
thank you. So let's keep moving along now and again.
You know, when you have been incarcerated for that period
of time, what are your thoughts? What do you feel
about aging in a prison system. Let's start with the
aging first before we move on from that.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Actually, everybody's treated the same. There's no age difference here. Interesting,
everybody is treated to saying, I don't care if you're
sixteen or ninety six, you're treated exactly the same. Only
(31:46):
thought ever comes to me of dying is that I
won't be able to have a visit with my son
before I go. I would love to hug my son
before I go, And I don't know if that's in
God's plans. Every now and then I'll get a vision
(32:07):
of seeing him, but I don't get a clear vision
of putting my arms around him. So every now and
then I will get am I going to see my
son in person? Ever? Again?
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Thank you, thank you, thank you. So we talked about,
as you mentioned then, the aging. I just want to
go back a little bit like and I think was
really important how you said there is there is no
age on anyone here. You know you're treated the same literally.
What about when you over the years have looked at
yourself or internally externally, what changes or were there changes
(32:51):
that you know you're sitting opposite me today from when
you first came in as a younger woman. What do
you feel about that.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
I'm not gonna blame I'm not gonna blame any work
that I've done in the institution on my arthritis in
my back, on my hips, because during the service we
jumped out of windows, climbed buildings, swung and as a child,
I jumped out the swings, standing up in the swing,
jumping out the swing, climbing up the trees, climbing over fences.
(33:29):
Arthritis will get in you. I had surgery in my
back cause I had some herniated distance in my back,
and they went in my back and did whatever they
had to do, and I was walking on bend over
to my left. I couldn't stand up straight. But this
good doctor, he he did this surgery, and he said,
(33:54):
what do you wanna do most And I looked at
him and I said, I just wanna walk. And so
then after my surgery, I started walking and I was
walking straight up. How long ago, Celestia's your surge twenty fourteen? Really? Yes?
But since then the off riders started getting in there.
(34:16):
And so now I have off riders and both hips
and then my lower back. So I have a walker
and a lot of good days I can stand straight up.
And some days I make myself lead a walker and
just go short distance and then come back. If I
come along distance, I definitely take the walker. I might
(34:39):
get tired and can't go nowhere. Aging here is not easy.
The sleeping quarters is not good. The the bad frame
is metal. The medical mattress has got like some kind
of bumps or something in it. So I have to
(35:01):
be like a hand and make me a little mess
so I can get in that spot. The time I
get back into bed get in that saying spot, I
gotta find that spot.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
Yeah, I'm trying not to visualize that. Thank you, celest
I'm just sorry about no. No, this is this is
our conversation. I just try not to put that in
my mind. But no, no, but you know it is.
It is very important piece because as I said, the
years go by, and you know, and reflecting upon who
(35:33):
you were when you first came in and where you
are today physically, emotionally, you know, psychologically, it's really relevant
for us to understand as part of who you are.
What about faith or religion here in the prison system
for yourself? Do you follow a faith, religion, spirituality since
(35:54):
you've been in stay?
Speaker 2 (35:56):
I stay in it. I stay with the Lord. Don't
let him go because I know through everything that I've
gone through in my past and the things that are
coming in my future, he's got me. I used to
do sacred dance in the chapel.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
You again, I'm not trying not to imagine that.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
But every now and then I might do a couple
of steps. You know, keep that moving, because if you
don't move it, you lose it. My body of motion
stays in motion. Yeah, I got that from the commercial.
So I've been moving around a lot. Yeah, yes, I know. Spiritually,
(36:41):
I've always been in the always been in the church,
and my mother and father made sure that's where I went.
I went to church, and then I was on the choir,
and then I was a junior usher. I've always been
in church all the time. To stay there, that's where
you You got to keep your faith in God, because
no matter what comes at you, he's going to hold you.
(37:03):
He's going to bring you to it. He went through
a whole lot before they killed him, you see what
I'm saying, And he didn't They didn't really kill him.
He gave it up. He gave up his ghosts. So
I just keep on going and I'm gonna give it
up when it's time. Thank you, and thank you for
asking me about my faith, because I still do the chapel.
(37:24):
That's all I do. Yes, and my Bible studies. You
got to read the words, You got to read the
Bible scriptures, and you have to pray because the two
don't go hand in hand. There what keeps us going
in this life. Thank you, man. We're going to.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Talk a little bit, even just moving on a little
bit about your life. Still here. What about friendships, relationships,
I mean, respect towards others? Does that happen? I mean,
does that happen here?
Speaker 2 (37:56):
For you?
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Shall we say?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (37:58):
What's that been?
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Like? I'll be I'll be frank. I have a lot
of friends here. I have people so close to me
that their their family. I call them sisters, brothers, I
call them my daughters. Yes, we have a little congregation.
All even said, come on, son, that's that's his transgender.
(38:22):
That's what he wants to be called him. Okay, fine,
that's on you, that's not on me. Come here, son,
you know you shouldn't be doing this some why you
do that? It's daughter? That ain't how you act. Come on, sister,
and not just go on and on. So my life
as far as a personality, I'm good. I'm good. Good.
(38:44):
My mom and dad they loved everybody that they didn't
have that they didn't have no discrimination against anybody. If
this person didn't have to get a shopping bag out
the closet for some food, and they take that too,
so and so out, Yes and so that's that's what
I'm used to. Yeah, you can get in trouble. Do
(39:04):
it here though, Don't do that so that's don't do that.
I have to remind myself, don't you do that?
Speaker 1 (39:14):
But that's probably part of your giving nature.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Yeah, and it gets me in trouble. That gets me
in trouble, and I have to constantly remind myself where
I am at. That's that's a rule. No pass, no passing,
no London, no borrowing, that's a pass. That's a rule here.
And so one time I got caught giving. And so
(39:39):
they say, you know you're supposed to. I said, but
they don't owe me nothing. I gave. I gave it
to them, you know what I mean. So that gets
me in trouble because I'm always willing to help another person.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
That's your kindness.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
I still got it in there, and I even did.
That's my testimony, you know, Like when I'm in chapel
and they say, do you have a testimony, My testimony
is I'm going to give. I'm going to give because
my God says, if you love them, you'll give it.
If somebody don't love you, if they say they love you,
(40:15):
they don't give you nothing, they don't love you. You
got to be able to give in a love situation
if they ain't giving you nothing, they ain't loving you.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
Thank you, thank you. I need all the help I
can get, Thank you all of it.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
And I be praying. I pray for everybody. My officers.
I know some of them. They think that they're really goofy,
but I like it because I am my chaplain. He
thinks I'm a nerd, and I am so you know,
I am good.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
And I do want to ask living quotas, what do
you share with anyone or what is your living facility?
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Like I'm a CPS worker, which he certified support specialist.
The man that put me in this spot was the
one who told me to do this job anyway. He said,
(41:19):
this is what you do anyway, go do this job.
And he already had signed me up to get the
training for the CPS AS job. And when he seen me,
he called to me. He said, I already put you in.
You need to go get this job. This is what
you do. I said, but I don't know if I
could do. He said, this is what you do anyway.
So this is what happened. So in my unit that
(41:41):
I live in, I chose to move to that unit.
They claim it was supposed to be such a bad unit,
but it's not and I love the unit one. I
like they shower until only two people can call them
the shower. There's no other bathrooms, there's no sinks, so
(42:04):
only two people in a shower. So if you're coming
in here and there's two in here, what are you
doing in here? You know? And then the second thing
was it was the warmest unit on this campus. It
was nice and warm. Now we have air conditioners and
all the buildings that I'm freezing. There.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
You go, that happens, doesn't it?
Speaker 2 (42:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (42:27):
But what else do you do? Though? When you say,
you know, before we finish up, what else? What else
would you?
Speaker 2 (42:34):
Well? It's better.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
It's a bit like what would you like the listener
to hear before we finish up about you?
Speaker 2 (42:43):
I'm gonna say the unit that I'm in, the women
that are there, we have a lot of young women
in there, and I would like for them to understand
that if they would just follow the rules that really
(43:04):
the guidelines that pertain to us, we would live a
lot better here. But with them wanting to be unruly
and nobody can tell me anything, it gets everybody in trouble,
not just them, because then it focuses on all of
us and if one do it, then you'll all do it.
(43:24):
And that's not true. And so that's what I would Actually,
what I would take from my whole situation of being
in the unit that I'm in, is that for people
just to follow the rules. Stop giving the officers a
hardware to go they're coming to work.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
How do you summarize your life? How do you summarize that?
Sitting here today.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
If I died to day tomorrow, I lived a good life.
I've done good for the majority of my life. That's all.
Like I said, love your mother, love your father, love people,
most of all, love yourself. You gotta love yourself, and
(44:15):
it's so much easier to love others.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Celeste, thank you so much. Thank you, thank you, thank
you coming from your heart. We appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
It's been a pleasure talking to.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Youst Thank you for having me, and thank you.
Speaker 4 (44:39):
Thank you for joining us on another episode of Self
Identities Conversations with Convicted Women, a Flying Possums production in
association with Nutter Productions. We deeply appreciate the support of
our listeners and the contributions from everyone who has made
this podcast possible. Your engagement and encouragement drive us to
(45:03):
continue these important conversations until next time. Take care,
We'd like to acknowledge for our listeners just upfront that
what you will hear from individual incarcerated women throughout the
episode you may find to be emotionally charged and even disturbing,
So we just want to acknowledge that and make you
aware of that. Furthermore, something that listeners probably don't realize
(00:23):
is that all of our individual conversations with each woman
was recorded inside a maximum security prison, the State Correctional
Institution SCI Munsey in Pennsylvania here in the United States.
So the noise, there's any chatter, anything in the background.
(00:44):
For our listeners, just to understand that we actually recorded
inside a prison where the day goes on. The women,
the officers, the staff, they all have their jobs. Just
because we're there, it doesn't stop or everything becomes quiet.
So if you do listeners hear any background noise, please
understand that is part of being inside a prison. Hello everyone,
(01:18):
and thank you for tuning into our podcast Self Identities
Conversations with Convicted Women. My name is doctor Catherine Whiteley
and I'm a feminist criminologist. Today I am visiting SCI Muncy,
a state correctional facility for women in Pennsylvania in the
(01:39):
United States and joining me today is Celeste. Welcome Celeste.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
It is our pleasure lovely to see you. And today
we have a conversation about your past and your present life. Okay, yes, okay,
so let's get started. So what I'd like to ask
is that how old were you when you entered the
prison system and how old are you today? Before we
(02:09):
go and talk about your childhood.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
I was forty three years old when I came and
next month I'll be seventy three.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Well, happy birthday for next month.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Okay, So what we're going to do, Celeste, is what
I'm going to do is ask you could we go
back to where were you born your childhood? Just a
little bit of conversation about growing up.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Well, I was born in Brooklyn, New York, Bethel Hospital, Brownsville,
and I'm an old child and my mother, she was
like my backbone of almost everything. My dad was a
pretty hard worker, so Harley was never around, always in
other countries building houses. Yes, and him and my uncle
(02:57):
would build a house from the foundation up. But I
was always a very happy and jolly little child, and
my mother always had me share everything with everybody because
I was by myself and I liked being here by myself.
It was fun. I had control over the whole house.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
You sound you're a bit spoilt there, miss. Yes.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
My mother told me that I was a spoiled brad.
Yes you did.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Did your mother have a nickname for you?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
She always called me mommy, which meant love right, Yes,
so that's all she was sis mommy? Did mommy dad?
If I was in trouble, I would get called the
whole name.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
I'm not going to go down that path. So, Celeste,
when you were growing up, as you say, and you're
an only child, what about schooling and education?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Well, majority of my teachers always put on my report
card very talkative, very active, not shy. I wasn't shy. Well,
they was like she likes to all the time, do everything,
Like I would clean the boards, clean down the black boards,
(04:13):
and then shake off the races. I was just a
busy little something and I always liked drawing, and so
I used to draw everything. And I would sit when
I was supposed to be listening to the teacher, and
I draw, like the sky, the trucks, the trains, the
buses is going by, cars going by people going by laughing,
and I would make faces. And I was not really
(04:36):
how you say, attentive. I liked moving around. I couldn't
keep still. It was like I was hyperactive with something.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
And so those creative skills. Are you still drawing? Painting?
Which for today? Can you tell us a little bit
about that before we go back to your childhood today?
Speaker 2 (04:56):
I crochet. I can crochet everything, including helicopter. The only
thing I can't crochet is the motor. And yes, I
draw and I paint over. I used to paint a
lot over in the activities department, Okay, And I still draw.
And I make cards, greeting cards, all kinds, birthday anniversaries,
(05:19):
fun cards, just for the children. I put Donald Duck,
Mickey Mouse. They don't even know them because they don't
show them on TV anymore, and they're like, well, who's
this bugs bunny?
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Yeah, so you still you've carried through.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
I am still doing it right, and I'm a clown.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
I think you're more of a fun person because I like.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
To joke more like all the time being sad.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Right, we're going to touch on some of those experiences,
but let's go back to your childhood. A game so
your teen years, what level of education did you complete?
Speaker 2 (05:55):
I did? I have associate's degree in trail early childhood education,
do you yes? And then I went to school for
medical assistant. And that was the last job that I kept,
was staying with the medical assistant. But I always liked
to going to school because I just liked the education.
So then I did a dental lab technician. So I'm
(06:16):
also a dental lab technician. I specialized in parcelain and
gold partials for your dentures. I did that. Oh, and
I started out first as a nurse's aid and I
would work like in the home health aid classrooms like
(06:37):
and go to homes and health the elderly or sick people.
I did a good tracheotomy cleaning and stuff like that.
So I was always doing something. I just never would
just sit still. That was not good for me. My
mother kept me busy.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Well, i'll tell you what I can see that now.
Sitting still help with with you. It's very hard, Okay,
So let's keep thinking moving forward a little bit. In
your twenties, so you're like teens in your twenties, could
you talk to us a bit about that?
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Okay? So when I was thirteen years old, Star Trek
came out. That kept me still. I enjoyed watching Star Trek.
So my mom went and bought me a portable color
TV so I could see Star Trek in color. Because
she kept telling everybody, s, let's love some space movies,
(07:30):
and so I was like a trekkie. I wasn't allowed
to go out, no boyfriends, no of that. But that
was not no. That was not even my mother's looking
or my father. They were you ain't going nowhere. So
I really got involved in television. So I watched TV
a lot. By the time I was getting ready to
(07:52):
graduate high school, though, I didn't have nobody take me
to the prom. And that's when mother I said, well,
I don't have no no boyfriends or no men in
my life. I am supposed to go to prom by myself.
She said, no, your father's taking you. So my father
took me to my prom.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
How did you feel? How did you feel?
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Like a growing up? Everybody loved him. So he was
so sharp. He was a fine, good looking man, you know,
so there was I was that was like, okay, they
was kind of jealous because I had a grown man.
Let me see what else about me? That I liked.
In my teenagehood, well, I did a lot of babysitting.
(08:37):
I was supposed to graduate high school earlier because I
had done a lot of curriculums that were extra credit.
And so what happened was my mother didn't want you
want to come to graduation in February because she wanted
to get dressed up. So I went to the counselor
asked her, is this something I could do besides graduating
(08:58):
in the fall out in the win the time? I
wanted to graduate in the summer so my mother could
get dressed up. And I was talking to the chunselor,
so we found there was this program called the co
ed program. Can I tell you that I went to
Georgia w Wingate High School?
Speaker 1 (09:14):
You can, You haven't, but you can suit me.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Okay, So I did. It was the same high school
that Dandy k graduated from. So I was kind of
proud about that because he was a movie star and
I liked him. He was he was silly and goofy.
I liked that. So then Mayor John B. Lindsey was
the first job I had as a teenager. Yes, I
(09:39):
got on the co op program where you go to
work one week and go to school one week in
order to stay in school so I could graduate in June.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Wow, congratulations, thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
And so while working with Mayor Lindsay's crew, I should
say who was it h because ker Krusky Conte all
of them were there. They were good guys, and the
secretary she kept showing me how to do extra stuff
on the job, so I was able to take the
(10:14):
play out. It was a machine that signed John B.
Lindsay's signature.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
And I learned how to use that machine to sign
this skit chut. And I was doing all the fair male,
and you know you have to type out and answer
the fair male and set envelopes and stuff. I felt
very grown.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Well, yeah, it sounded like you did a lot of
different things going up, didn't you through those teen to
lateteen years.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
I did because my mother knew to keep me busy.
I was very hyper, very hyper. But we didn't take
medicine and stuff like that. Children wasn't given medicine. I
was born in nineteen fifty one, and we were taught
to listen, be still, you know what I'm saying. Children
to be seen and not heard. So I kept myself
(11:02):
busy also, and so going to work for me and
Lizy was like, oh oh, I was very proud.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
It's an achievement.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
It was very much an achievement. Two, I was invited
to Gracie Manchin.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Well, that's an experience in itself. Some other time we'll
have to talk more about that. But let's keep going
because I think, you know, all of this shares your
experience and as you say, the energy and the interest
you have in learning more than beyond. But I want
to just ask you about your mom and your dad,
(11:41):
you know, and how would you describe their personalities, you know,
and your relationship individually.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
My mother is sweet, was well, I'll keep written to
saying it. It's like she's here because I hear her
in mean. But my mother was very sweet, very helpful,
always did everything for the neighborhood. She was a missionary
and she would just work the church, go to school.
(12:09):
She went to school her own self while I was
still going to school, and she went to a Thomas
Jefferson High School and I was there when she graduated.
But her and my dad both were children of the
depression time. They were born in nineteen twenty nine and
they swore off certain things that they would never let
(12:32):
happen to them as adults. So they grew up like
brother and sister more than a husband and wife. Teen
they were best friends truly anyway. My dad he was
a little more stern, but he reminds you of Felix's unger,
(12:53):
always cleaning and always tiring things. He didn't like anything
out of place. Everything had a place, and every place
had a face. And my mother she will always go
see so you could do that yourself. And so with
the two of them around and me, I was like,
like when they get into a midst of the standing
(13:15):
with each other or disagreement, I would sit in the
middle and just wait for the next work to say
something to that. It was not nice. And my mother
would say, go in your room. I was like, oh boy,
I mean he's just gonna get hot. So I hap right.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
But isn't it funny? How you know? Not funny, but
it's it's lovely to hear that you really did have
a lovely life.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
They made me into a good child. I was a
good child, I was a good teenager, and I was
a good adult. Yes, I truly, I truly am a
good adult. Yes, because my mother and father always gave
me a chance to speak up and say what was
on my mind. If they didn't like what I was saying,
they would say, this is how you should say it,
(14:01):
or this is what you should have done. Celeste, you
don't do it that way, And that showed me how
to do it the right way. Yes, or speak my mother.
I had one incident when I was in junior high school.
I had a teacher that made me upset because my
mother taught me how to do division. He didn't want
(14:22):
me to do division the way my mother taught me.
He wanted me to do the division the way he
showed me. But the way he showed me was like
taking forever to get the answer the way my mother
showed me. I got to the point right. Yeah, So
it was just certain things.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
So what about moving forward then, Celeste? In your twenties
and thirties, what was life? What was your life like then?
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Okay, so I got pregnant when I finished my first
year of college. I got pregnant at eighteen, and they
had my son, and my mother and my father both
of them stepped right in. It took care of them,
and then my aunt. I have an aunt. She was
close to my mother. They were close sisters. And so then,
(15:13):
like I said, I went back to school. So I
went back to school and I started doing the early
child education. So that's what I did after I had
my son, and I worked for New York City House
and Authority. That was my part time job. When I
finished with the early child Education course, I went on
(15:37):
to become a full time worker for the New York
City House and Authority. Yeah, Mayor Lindsay had gotten voted out,
so no longer was I able to work there because
his whole crew was scattered all over New York City
with other jobs, any city job that was available, that's
where they put us, right. I went into the New
(16:02):
York Army Guards because I liked it, the the insurance
that they had offered at the time, and with me
have being an unwead mother, I said that this would help,
not with just because my mother and father was doing
everything and so I didn't want them to have to
keep holding me and my son down. So I went
(16:23):
to the New York Army Guards.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
And what was that experience? Like, what did you do?
It was?
Speaker 2 (16:28):
It was a how you say, I would call it
like a shocking experience because you're really the only woman
at that time. Come on, it was nineteen seventy four.
You're the only woman really at that time that was
stationed with a bunch of men, and so a lot
(16:49):
of times you had to take their jokes. So they
kid you, you know, and whatever, you have to blow
it off, let it roll what they used to Well
the stuff they said it wasn't very nice. Well you
let it roll off your back like a duct and
all this. But you know, yes, I became patoon leader.
(17:11):
So we did a lot of ceremonial events and I
carried the flag. I was the flag woman. And as
a matter of fact, the last ceremony we had was
for leider Horn and that was exciting, maybe very nervous,
but it was exciting. And that's what that's what I did.
(17:32):
I mostly was like in communications, right, I talk a
lot still on the report card, it's very talking to you.
So that's that's what I did in the New York
Army Guards.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
And family growing up, Like when you said you had
a son, you were able to talk about relationships, families,
you know, mm hmm. Yeah. It's always when you're sitting
here and reflecting on your journey. No, doubt is challenging,
you know what I mean, and brings up raw emotions,
(18:11):
doesn't it, Yes, it does, it does. Yeah. So moving along,
and we're not going to talk about the crime or criminality.
But if people are wanting to know who was celested
prior to the crime being committed, let's say that, how
would you describe her? Then? What was happening to her
her life that took her to that next step?
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Oh boy? Oh. I was trying to be a good partner.
I was trying to be a good partner and a
good friend. I was trying to be very understanding to
this person's life. Stills, they didn't really have a good
(18:57):
family background. A few people that we had met together
kept time with me. So let's this is jealousy, this
is not this is not a love relationship. You should
get out of it now. But I felt like I
needed to help them. So I really I'm here because
(19:18):
I tried to help.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Them, right, Thank you?
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Yeah, thank you God. I kept dragging them, rather they
was dragging me down, but I kept trying to pull
them up. My family kept saying, you can't beat the
dead horse, and you can't lead the horse. To the well,
well he could drink He's God, can't make him drink
the water. They were saying all kinds of stuff my pastor.
(19:46):
My pastor was very upset with me. The neighbors didn't
care for him at all. He kept he just kept
doing stuff. But I expect ain't to them that he
didn't come from a really good background. I was really
trying to help him, but it didn't turn out right.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
So let's you know, when you talk about trying to help,
do you find that that's who you were from a
little girl all the way through, trying to help people,
always always being there. Yeah, yeah, trying to help and yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Well I watched my mother help so many people, okay,
and I seen how well those people turned out. So
I was like, oh, I could do that. That's something
I know I'm able to do. But it doesn't always
work that way. If they don't want the help, they're
not taking it. I don't care what you give them. Unfortunately,
(20:43):
this person said they was never going to be happy,
and I was like, what, I'm a happy person. And
that's when I made in my mind that I needed
to get away. Yeah, And it took a long time
for me to get that that I need to go.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
So, Celeste, thank you, thank you. If we talk a
little bit moving forward now years when you were first incarcerated,
now I will assume that you went to a county
jail first, is that correct? And then you came to
sci Muncie, the state correctional facility here today, can you
(21:24):
share with our listeners what was your experience going through
the sentencing and then the county jail, you know, you know,
what was it like for you? And then we'll talk
about where you are today.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
County is horrible. I don't know what it was about me.
I don't know what it was, but I think it's
my prosersonality that made my The officers and the warden
(22:05):
at my county, they it was like they felt like
I just wanted to nitpick at me. The slang is
got you under the scope, putting their finger at you,
saying all kinds of stuff. What they didn't realize was
(22:26):
I'm the kind of I've built myself to the point
where I could take a joke, I can take criticism
pretty well. I can take being calling me names. I
could take that, like I said when I was younger,
but well, for real, my cousin was my Bible stay
(22:47):
teaching when I was six and seven, and she's to
always say to me, the names that they calling me
is probably what they are. So I kept that. So
when I got into County, the stuff that it was
saying about me, I said, I said to myself, I said, oh,
that's what they are, That's how they are. But they
weren't good. They weren't good at me. They would allow
(23:09):
me to use the bathroom. They called me the big black,
crazy lady and burly woman and all kinds of crazy words.
And I was like, I'm one of those things.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
How long will you? Thank you? How long were you
celesting the county jail before coming to the state.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Prisons eleven and a half months.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Right, and then moving forward, you come here, tesce I, Nancie,
What was the first year or two like for you?
If you can reflect upon that.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
When I first got here, I was just scared. I
didn't know how to be in jail. I'd never been
to jail, never been arrested. I didn't know what to do.
So I stayed in the cell and the officers, the
officers kept coming to the door asking me, why are
you sitting here? I said, because I don't know what
to do. And so one officer was kind. She said, well,
(24:04):
would you like to have a detail. And I was like, well,
what's the detail? She said, a job. I said, yes,
that's what I need. I need a job because I'm
used to getting up going to work. I said, this
is horrible, just sitting in the cell thinking about everything.
And she said, well one NIGHTE click the door, I
want you to come out. I said, okay, okay. So
(24:26):
that made me come around a little bit because I
was really scared and you know what to do here
When she clicked the door and I came out, and
she took me upstairs in the back in the closet,
opened it up and it was wreck and she said,
do you think you can handle this? I said, well,
what do you want me to do? She said, I
(24:48):
want you to put these in order of sizes. These
are uniforms. I want the shirts head, the pants head
this here and this here, the towers, the gowns, the robes.
I was like, I got this.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
I bet you would.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
And I was like, I rue, and I don't wait in
the closet and I did everything. Yes. About two hours
later she came back and She stood in the doorway
and I was like, down on the bottom shelf putting
these raggedy things that weren't you know you could wear them?
So I put him in the blast and bag and
I was putting one of them and she came to
(25:26):
the doing She said, what are you doing down there?
I said, these are the clothes that I think need
to go and condemn him, and she looked at me.
She said, we don't condemn him. I said, oh, well,
do you want me to sew them up? Because I
can sew good and she said no, we don't want
you to do that either. And then she said you
did a wonderful job here. What else would you like
(25:47):
to do? I said I like to cook and she
was like, oh okay. So back then they used to
bring the hotch tables over and we would bring the
food and do the food there because we were in classification.
So I was I was constantly visiting and I started
moving around. Then the lieutenant came and came to the
(26:08):
door one evening. He said, you need to come out
of there, because I understand you now I played volleyball,
and I was like, yes, I do. Now he said, well,
you need to come on out. We need we need
a captain. I was like, okay, so that's that here.
That made me feel useful. That's the word.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
I could use you for this, and I could use
you for that. And I got to go back to volleyballs. Yes,
you really like to play it?
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Really?
Speaker 1 (26:38):
I was good, isn't that? And again, how long did
you play volleyball?
Speaker 2 (26:48):
I played volleyball up until we got the We started
doing floor hockey down in our gym, right that was
that must have been about fifty two years old. Yeah,
when I started, well, I wasn't really playing volleyball. We
was playing. I was doing more floor hockey was inside,
(27:10):
it was beautiful. And then before that we was playing whiffleball.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Really you got no idea what that is. But it's
the plastic bat with the plastic balls. You you're not
supposed to steal bases and stuff, but I did. Yeah,
I'm a team player. Yeah that's it sounds like it.
(27:36):
Never put me on a team with useless we're gonna win. Well,
but actually that's true. That's a scary part trateating.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
We can win.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
But so let's let's keep going to this. And I
wanted to, you know, because that's an interesting piece about
the sport. You know, you enjoyment there, but share with
us a little bit about us. The years progressed and
how long have you been here?
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Now this is thirty years for me here.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Okay, So in that moving forward into that, you know,
halfway through this sentence, you know, how have you changed
or how have you you know, managed your life, you know,
moving forward, you know, fifteen years later to where you
are today.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
I only learned a lesson twelve years ago because I
still had that helping people imming. I got myself from
trouble because a young lady had she had taken yarn
from an activities department. I didn't know it. She needed
somebody to finish or crochet her blanket. I don't mean
(28:42):
to brag a boast on ean the lord. I crochet excellently,
a professional. So I took the blanket from her and
I told my officer of my unit that I was
going to finish this blanket for this person. So anyway,
I was crocheting, and the search team came and they
(29:03):
confiscated the blanket. But this young lady has said that
she had to permit and she had to receipt for
the yarn, but I didn't, so I got to write
up for having the yarn in my you know, my possession.
That's when I learned my lesson.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
And crush shame. I have to go back to that.
My mother and grandmother loved to do that. Yes, indeed,
it's a skill.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
And I make the best doilies with the cotton tan
thread because that's what my grandaunt taught us when we
were little children, how to make the doorllies, because she
would take them and we would make them all white,
and she would take them out and they would be
the ones that the church would take right, And we
made the doillies to go on the back of the
heads for the ushers and the nurses in our church. Okay,
(29:56):
so you know I was, I did it check aboard
blanket for this woman? Yeah. Yeah, that's when I learned
my lesson to stop helping everybody. Stop doing that. You
have to be secrete about who you help, etcetera, etcetera.
Because me, I'm like a lot of times only even
(30:19):
volunteer myself. It just happens they need help or help them.
Why aren't you helping them?
Speaker 1 (30:26):
You know? And yeah, I'm still into that crocheting piece
I think that's not a lot of people say, well,
what is the doorley today?
Speaker 2 (30:36):
So they keep the st off your table. You don't
really need a coaster, and you put your lamp on
a nice pretty doyly put your lamp there. Your vase
is on the middle of the table, and you have
a runner down the side down middle, and you set
out for Christmas, you set out for Thanksgiving and Easter,
and the tables all fuzzy wuddards.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Hey, we're on the same page as that together. That's funny,
thank you. So let's keep moving along now and again.
You know, when you have been incarcerated for that period
of time, what are your thoughts? What do you feel
about aging in a prison system. Let's start with the
aging first before we move on from that.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Actually, everybody's treated the same. There's no age difference here. Interesting,
everybody is treated to saying, I don't care if you're
sixteen or ninety six, you're treated exactly the same. Only
(31:46):
thought ever comes to me of dying is that I
won't be able to have a visit with my son
before I go. I would love to hug my son
before I go, And I don't know if that's in
God's plans. Every now and then I'll get a vision
(32:07):
of seeing him, but I don't get a clear vision
of putting my arms around him. So every now and
then I will get am I going to see my
son in person? Ever? Again?
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Thank you, thank you, thank you. So we talked about,
as you mentioned then, the aging. I just want to
go back a little bit like and I think was
really important how you said there is there is no
age on anyone here. You know you're treated the same literally.
What about when you over the years have looked at
yourself or internally externally, what changes or were there changes
(32:51):
that you know you're sitting opposite me today from when
you first came in as a younger woman. What do
you feel about that.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
I'm not gonna blame I'm not gonna blame any work
that I've done in the institution on my arthritis in
my back, on my hips, because during the service we
jumped out of windows, climbed buildings, swung and as a child,
I jumped out the swings, standing up in the swing,
jumping out the swing, climbing up the trees, climbing over fences.
(33:29):
Arthritis will get in you. I had surgery in my
back cause I had some herniated distance in my back,
and they went in my back and did whatever they
had to do, and I was walking on bend over
to my left. I couldn't stand up straight. But this
good doctor, he he did this surgery, and he said,
(33:54):
what do you wanna do most And I looked at
him and I said, I just wanna walk. And so
then after my surgery, I started walking and I was
walking straight up. How long ago, Celestia's your surge twenty fourteen? Really? Yes?
But since then the off riders started getting in there.
(34:16):
And so now I have off riders and both hips
and then my lower back. So I have a walker
and a lot of good days I can stand straight up.
And some days I make myself lead a walker and
just go short distance and then come back. If I
come along distance, I definitely take the walker. I might
(34:39):
get tired and can't go nowhere. Aging here is not easy.
The sleeping quarters is not good. The the bad frame
is metal. The medical mattress has got like some kind
of bumps or something in it. So I have to
(35:01):
be like a hand and make me a little mess
so I can get in that spot. The time I
get back into bed get in that saying spot, I
gotta find that spot.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
Yeah, I'm trying not to visualize that. Thank you, celest
I'm just sorry about no. No, this is this is
our conversation. I just try not to put that in
my mind. But no, no, but you know it is.
It is very important piece because as I said, the
years go by, and you know, and reflecting upon who
(35:33):
you were when you first came in and where you
are today physically, emotionally, you know, psychologically, it's really relevant
for us to understand as part of who you are.
What about faith or religion here in the prison system
for yourself? Do you follow a faith, religion, spirituality since
(35:54):
you've been in stay?
Speaker 2 (35:56):
I stay in it. I stay with the Lord. Don't
let him go because I know through everything that I've
gone through in my past and the things that are
coming in my future, he's got me. I used to
do sacred dance in the chapel.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
You again, I'm not trying not to imagine that.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
But every now and then I might do a couple
of steps. You know, keep that moving, because if you
don't move it, you lose it. My body of motion
stays in motion. Yeah, I got that from the commercial.
So I've been moving around a lot. Yeah, yes, I know. Spiritually,
(36:41):
I've always been in the always been in the church,
and my mother and father made sure that's where I went.
I went to church, and then I was on the choir,
and then I was a junior usher. I've always been
in church all the time. To stay there, that's where
you You got to keep your faith in God, because
no matter what comes at you, he's going to hold you.
(37:03):
He's going to bring you to it. He went through
a whole lot before they killed him, you see what
I'm saying, And he didn't They didn't really kill him.
He gave it up. He gave up his ghosts. So
I just keep on going and I'm gonna give it
up when it's time. Thank you, and thank you for
asking me about my faith, because I still do the chapel.
(37:24):
That's all I do. Yes, and my Bible studies. You
got to read the words, You got to read the
Bible scriptures, and you have to pray because the two
don't go hand in hand. There what keeps us going
in this life. Thank you, man. We're going to.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Talk a little bit, even just moving on a little
bit about your life. Still here. What about friendships, relationships,
I mean, respect towards others? Does that happen? I mean,
does that happen here?
Speaker 2 (37:56):
For you?
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Shall we say?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (37:58):
What's that been?
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Like? I'll be I'll be frank. I have a lot
of friends here. I have people so close to me
that their their family. I call them sisters, brothers, I
call them my daughters. Yes, we have a little congregation.
All even said, come on, son, that's that's his transgender.
(38:22):
That's what he wants to be called him. Okay, fine,
that's on you, that's not on me. Come here, son,
you know you shouldn't be doing this some why you
do that? It's daughter? That ain't how you act. Come on, sister,
and not just go on and on. So my life
as far as a personality, I'm good. I'm good. Good.
(38:44):
My mom and dad they loved everybody that they didn't
have that they didn't have no discrimination against anybody. If
this person didn't have to get a shopping bag out
the closet for some food, and they take that too,
so and so out, Yes and so that's that's what
I'm used to. Yeah, you can get in trouble. Do
(39:04):
it here though, Don't do that so that's don't do that.
I have to remind myself, don't you do that?
Speaker 1 (39:14):
But that's probably part of your giving nature.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Yeah, and it gets me in trouble. That gets me
in trouble, and I have to constantly remind myself where
I am at. That's that's a rule. No pass, no passing,
no London, no borrowing, that's a pass. That's a rule here.
And so one time I got caught giving. And so
(39:39):
they say, you know you're supposed to. I said, but
they don't owe me nothing. I gave. I gave it
to them, you know what I mean. So that gets
me in trouble because I'm always willing to help another person.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
That's your kindness.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
I still got it in there, and I even did.
That's my testimony, you know, Like when I'm in chapel
and they say, do you have a testimony, My testimony
is I'm going to give. I'm going to give because
my God says, if you love them, you'll give it.
If somebody don't love you, if they say they love you,
(40:15):
they don't give you nothing, they don't love you. You
got to be able to give in a love situation
if they ain't giving you nothing, they ain't loving you.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
Thank you, thank you. I need all the help I
can get, Thank you all of it.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
And I be praying. I pray for everybody. My officers.
I know some of them. They think that they're really goofy,
but I like it because I am my chaplain. He
thinks I'm a nerd, and I am so you know,
I am good.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
And I do want to ask living quotas, what do
you share with anyone or what is your living facility?
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Like I'm a CPS worker, which he certified support specialist.
The man that put me in this spot was the
one who told me to do this job anyway. He said,
(41:19):
this is what you do anyway, go do this job.
And he already had signed me up to get the
training for the CPS AS job. And when he seen me,
he called to me. He said, I already put you in.
You need to go get this job. This is what
you do. I said, but I don't know if I
could do. He said, this is what you do anyway.
So this is what happened. So in my unit that
(41:41):
I live in, I chose to move to that unit.
They claim it was supposed to be such a bad unit,
but it's not and I love the unit one. I
like they shower until only two people can call them
the shower. There's no other bathrooms, there's no sinks, so
(42:04):
only two people in a shower. So if you're coming
in here and there's two in here, what are you
doing in here? You know? And then the second thing
was it was the warmest unit on this campus. It
was nice and warm. Now we have air conditioners and
all the buildings that I'm freezing. There.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
You go, that happens, doesn't it?
Speaker 2 (42:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (42:27):
But what else do you do? Though? When you say,
you know, before we finish up, what else? What else
would you?
Speaker 2 (42:34):
Well? It's better.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
It's a bit like what would you like the listener
to hear before we finish up about you?
Speaker 2 (42:43):
I'm gonna say the unit that I'm in, the women
that are there, we have a lot of young women
in there, and I would like for them to understand
that if they would just follow the rules that really
(43:04):
the guidelines that pertain to us, we would live a
lot better here. But with them wanting to be unruly
and nobody can tell me anything, it gets everybody in trouble,
not just them, because then it focuses on all of
us and if one do it, then you'll all do it.
(43:24):
And that's not true. And so that's what I would Actually,
what I would take from my whole situation of being
in the unit that I'm in, is that for people
just to follow the rules. Stop giving the officers a
hardware to go they're coming to work.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
How do you summarize your life? How do you summarize that?
Sitting here today.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
If I died to day tomorrow, I lived a good life.
I've done good for the majority of my life. That's all.
Like I said, love your mother, love your father, love people,
most of all, love yourself. You gotta love yourself, and
(44:15):
it's so much easier to love others.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Celeste, thank you so much. Thank you, thank you, thank
you coming from your heart. We appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
It's been a pleasure talking to.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Youst Thank you for having me, and thank you.
Speaker 4 (44:39):
Thank you for joining us on another episode of Self
Identities Conversations with Convicted Women, a Flying Possums production in
association with Nutter Productions. We deeply appreciate the support of
our listeners and the contributions from everyone who has made
this podcast possible. Your engagement and encouragement drive us to
(45:03):
continue these important conversations until next time. Take care,
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