February 25, 2025 • 40 mins
Dorothy, now 75, is a former nurse and Vietnam War veteran. For the past 43 years, she has been incarcerated, serving a life sentence without parole.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
We'd like to acknowledge for our listeners just upfront that
what you will hear from individual incarcerated women throughout the
episode you may find to be emotionally charged and even disturbing,
So we just want to acknowledge that and make you
aware of that. Furthermore, something that listeners probably don't realize
(00:26):
is that all of our individual conversations with each woman
was recorded inside a maximum security prison, the State Correctional
Institution SCI Munsey in Pennsylvania here in the United States.
So the noise, there's any chatter, anything in the background.
(00:47):
For our listeners just to understand that we actually recorded
inside a prison where the day goes on. The women,
the officers, the staff, they all have their jobs. Just
because we're there, it does stop. Well, everything becomes quiet.
So if you do, as listeners here any background noise,
please understand that is part of being inside a prison.
(01:20):
Hello everyone, and thank you for tuning in to our podcast,
Self Identities Conversations with Convicted Women. My name is doctor
Catherine Whiteley, and I'm a feminist criminologist. Today I'm visiting
SCI Muncy, a state correctional facility for women in Pennsylvania
(01:42):
in the United States and joining me today is Dorothy. Welcome,
Thank you very much. It is great to finally meet
you in person. So, of course, just to share with
the listeners, we've never met in person before, only once
we've spoken via a zoom, so this is all very
(02:03):
new to you. It is yes, yes, and to expect
in our discussion we thought about don't come prepared with notes.
Let's just have a conversation and you're happy with that,
so here we are. Okay, thank you, Dorothy. Let's go back,
if you don't mind, and share with us how old
(02:24):
were you when you first entered sci Muncy and how
long have you been here? And if you don't mind
me asking, and what is your age today? Please?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Well, originally I came to Mounsey in nineteen ninety two
and I've been here thirty two years. And how old
are you today?
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Oh, shouldn't I ask?
Speaker 2 (02:54):
I just recently turned seventy five.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Well, many happy returns, thank you.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
It took me two days toity over that. Yeah, So let's.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Go back, if you don't mind, Dorothy, because people, or
our listeners, I should say, they want to learn who
is Dorothy? Who was Dorothy? Even before the incarceration experience.
So could we go back to your childhood and talk
or if you could share, where were you born, what
was your childhood like, and let's move forward to where
(03:24):
we are today. That's good, okay, Well let's start.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Well, I was born in Johnstown, Pennsylvania, and I had
a really I had a good childhood mom, dad, a
little brother, and there wasn't anything odd, strange, anything like that.
And it was a good childhood, good family life for
the most part. And then I went to school to college.
(03:55):
I have a master's in nursing and that was always
very rewarding for me. And then in ninety one the
crime took place. And then in ninety two is when
I came to Monci.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Right, thank you.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
I'm going to take you back again to your childhood.
When you mentioned you had a normal, loving child. Yeah,
was this something that you loved to do or you know,
what did you do growing up? What was something that
interested you?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Well? I loved dogs and I love to swim, So
those are really my two favorite things. I was a
drum adread I love to do that, so I was
I was an integral part of the band plus my dogs,
and it was good.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
And you mentioned school now you went and completed school
and then you went on to do a higher education.
But let's go back to the school years. Did you know,
what did you do then or who did you hang
out with?
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Well? I was in the band for years and my
best friend was also in the band, so we were
inseparable for many years. She would spend half the summer
at my house and I'd spend half the summer in
her house. So it was very nice. But I graduated
on commercial course. You know, back then we were girls
(05:16):
were supposed to get married and have children. That just
wasn't for me. I had to keep going. I wanted
to do something else, and so that's when I first started.
I applied and then I got my registered nursing diploma,
and then I wanted to get my bachelor's and then
my master's. So I really filled up.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
I loved it, loved it. And the nursing piecs what again,
just taking us through that the thought process why nursing,
you know, and going back in those years, why nursing?
Speaker 2 (05:48):
I'll tell you why. My dad was a steel worker,
healthy as a horse, never missed a day's work, and
one day he got really sick and he spent two
weeks in bed with pneumonia. You know, at bethleem Steel
you have to get a chest X ray every month.
When he came back, when he went back to work,
(06:10):
there was a huge range size spot on his lung.
It took a year when he died. When I remember
those days, I remember all the questions I had and
why he was a young man. He was forty Wait,
let's see, he was fifty one, so young, and I
(06:32):
wanted to know, And so I think that's what drove
me initially until I really got a taste of it,
and then I really liked it.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
And what was the part about nursing that you really liked.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
I like, I like new things. I'd like exciting things,
and nursing was always you have to really pick apart
something to find out what's wrong. And you know, I
was really one of the first back in I graduated
(07:05):
seventy and so nurses training, and nurses didn't get involved
in a lot of scientific things. Well I didn't like that,
and so I always I was with the doctors. I
was here, I was there, so I had to find
out and science was big for me. I just kept
(07:26):
on going. I wanted to know the answers.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Thank you, And I'm going to take you back again
to your childhood. How would you describe yourself as a
young girl? How would you sitting here now and reflecting
back there, Dorothy? Who was Dorothy as a little girl?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
I was always double edged sword. I was always just
like kind of now I've spoken, I'm direct, not in
an offensive way, but I'm big on just say it,
just tell me the truth or be honest. I just
(08:06):
think that's that's a huge quality to have in a person.
And I'm not saying it always gets me places because
that is a double edged sword, but it's always benefited me.
People trust me because of it, and I get things
done because of it.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
So yeah, and today, sitting opposite me, when you talk
about that, who is Dorothy today?
Speaker 2 (08:32):
I'm not the same person I used to be. I'm
a lot quieter, still outspoken, but I'm a lot quieter.
I think about things more, and that's that's helped. It's
helped along the way, especially after thirty two years.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Here, right, thirty two years? Yeah, yeah, well let's talk
about that. So Dorothy before or just prior to entering
the institution here, Sei Muncie, what was Dorothy like then,
what was happening.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
To Dorothy right before I came, just before.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
You came, before the crime was committed, because we're not
talking about the crime or criminality, but people wondering what
happened was what was Dorothy like then? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I got married at twenty one, and I had a
good husband. But I got married in the wake of
my dad's death, Okay, and I'm not sure that was
a good thing. And at twenty one I was young.
People shouldn't get married at twenty one, they just shouldn't.
(09:47):
But I had to. I just I had to go.
I had to I had to turn around and make
a different life. The life I chose wasn't healthy or
safe for me many many times, and knowing that brought
me here after I was married twenty twenty three and
(10:11):
a half years, and so it was some days it
was easy, some days it was rewarding. It was different
because I had a good husband. Some people are meant
for different lives, and that's where I think it went crooked.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Thank you, And I know it's not easy to go
back and reflect on these things, but thank you, Dorothy.
So moving forward a little bit, so here you've just
ended all those years ago, if you can help me
out ended sci Munseille. What were you like then and
what was happening to you? What was going through your
mind then at a young age.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
I was so young and stupid, and I'm not. I
wasn't real street wise, no job, no alcohol. It was
never in my house. I just and then I come
here and what an education. It was such an education.
And you know, people watch to way too much TV,
(11:15):
including me. There's rape and violence and all these things.
So when I came here, that's what I envisioned. That
wasn't the case at Moncei. But I was so afraid.
In fact, well, when I came here, the doctor put
me on huge amount of valume. I was a mess
and I had a seizure in the infirmary because they
(11:39):
cut it off because there's some drugs they don't give here.
Well after that, I wouldn't go out at night. I
wouldn't go out at night for anything. I was afraid.
There were bushes all around, and I was afraid to
come from here to our infirmary. So one day one
of the sergeants came and he said, far By, what
(12:00):
are you doing go to medline? And he said why
and I told him because I'm afraid, and he laughed,
he thought that was so funny. Well, a major was
working here and he came down and he said, come on,
let's go. I'll walk you to Medline. Do you know
(12:20):
that man walk me to medline for two whole weeks
at night, lovely so and he showed me things and
look at this, and look at that. So by the
end of the second week he said to me, so,
what do you think you think? You're okay? Are you?
How do you feel? And I was so grateful to him,
(12:42):
and I said, I'm good, and I'm just I'll never
forget him. Never he's no longer here, I'll never forget him.
What a kind gentleman.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Isn't that wonderful to hear? Because you don't often hear
the goodness, you know you here in any institution.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Well, we have some, you know, that are judgmental and
those kind of things, but that is.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
A norm across any any institution in any country, you know.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
But there are some people that extend themselves and it's
you become so grateful when you see that.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Yes, wonder thank you.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
I'll never forget that. And I grew up in those
two weeks.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Yeah, isn't that interesting? Yeah? So what do you do?
What is a day like for you? Dorothy? What what
is your life like?
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Wells, I love to cross ditch so any any Yes,
I love to and I the colors make me feel
good because you know, we're in brown, but the colors
make me feel so wonderful. And then I cross ditch
all sorts of things. So in my spare time, I
do that and I read. But I also work in maintenance.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
So what is that now? People wanting to know that
are listening? What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Well, I'm seventy five and I don't get around greatly,
but I get around and I have a wonderful boss. See,
I've worked for maintenance for probably twenty years off and
on here Cambridge, and so I needed a job when
I came back from Cambridge and my boss now said,
(14:17):
we'll see what we can do. So they hired me
again and I work a couple of days. I work Monday,
Wednesday and Friday. I clean, I do his office. I
do things like that and it's wonderful and he pays
me for that. I'm so great, I'd say to him
all the time, Yes, you pay me to do little
(14:38):
things around the shop because you know, I know how
to do drills and saws and I learned all that
years ago. But I'm not it's not a good fit
for me now right. He doesn't care. He says, do this,
do that. If somebody wants a chair, I'll clean it
up for them, things like that, And it's just it's
healthy for me. It's helped me. It's healthy for me
(15:00):
to get up, to get ready to go to work,
to do things, to walk back. It just is. And
then when I come back, I'll either shower or maybe
I'll look at a project that I'm doing. And I
live in a unit. I live in a veterans unit.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Now we're going to talk a little bit about that.
Thank you for well that's a whole another thing. But
we will have time out and I'll have some questions
on that. So if you don't mind me interrupting you, now,
let's focus a little bit on that. So could you
share a little bit about what is a veterans unit
and what do you do.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Well a veterans unit. And by the way, we are
the only female veterans unit in the state, no, no,
in the country. We're it. So that's impressive.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Significant.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
It is significant, and it's impressive, and we do a
lot of things. Initially, we have are you familiar with
a a garden? Back in the nineteen forties and fifties,
we had now I lost my care a victory garden, right, yes, yes,
(16:11):
and so that's where the women excelled. So we have
one of those, and it is gorgeous.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
And tell me, though a little bit more, what is
the victory gardens?
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Victory gardens? Way back when when we went to war,
people needed food. Their husbands were gone, women were at home,
and they we needed not only to donate and to
give back, but we needed the women had to provide
for their families because now they were at home by themselves.
And that's what the gardens grew up all. The first
(16:42):
garden was Roosevelt, missus Roosevelt, and she had one. She
asked her husband to make a plot in the front
yard of the White House, and that's where her garden started.
And it caught on all over the country.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
And so here in s have this victory guidence. Yes,
and tell us a little bit about you know what
else happens at this particular Veterans unit. Well, what is
that place.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
It's really you know, nobody's ever No, we certainly never
had a garden. We have full time gardeners. They go out,
they weed, they plow, they do all sorts of things.
And luckily the administration helps us do this, you know,
they order things that we need. You know, we started
(17:31):
out instead of shovels, we were using dust pans.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
It happens, doesn't it. You use whatever is.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
About it exactly to get the job done. Yes, But
the main thing about this garden is donation. We have.
We donate to Wounded Warriors, Robin's House where female veterans go.
We donate to so many agencies that are veteran related
(18:00):
and it's it's really great. Now we just are our product.
Now we just pulled and weighed eight hundred pounds.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Plus, really and this is all going to be distributed.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
All donated. Now we have we grow a few herbs
and things like that. We have a culinary program here, yes,
and it's it's a great program. They don't have a
big budget, so what we do is we take a
lot of the herbs and things and we donate to
that program. So it kind of it kind of benefits
several people it's really a great thing. Tomatoes, onions, broccoli, pumpkins, watermelon, cucumbers,
(18:43):
you name it, we have it.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Isn't that wonderful? So how long is this? How long
has this been going for?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Three years?
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Three years?
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Well three years plus but full force three years? Right, Yeah,
it wonderful and it's beautiful. It's right out right down there.
You can even see from.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Here, well there you go there, anyone, it's listening. There's
a window behind me, and if I look out, I
will possibly see the gardens. Thank you, And I can
see like your face just as lit up when you're
talking about that and the giving back, and that's and
the giving back and helping others, no doubt, even no
doubt before you came to prison, but particularly now it
(19:20):
seems relevant as part of your coping mechanism.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Here because we don't get a lot of opportunity to
give right, you know, it's we buy commissary and we
do our things, and but really to give back, yes,
we don't have that, and especially as a lifer, yes,
you's it's significant. It's wonderful to.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Do and giving back. I'm going to skip on a
head here about your cross ditch.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
You mentioned It.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Reminds me of my mother, my grandmother all those years ago.
They very much did that. So when you make something,
what happens to that because people are wondering what do
you do this work?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Well, there's some It depends on what you want to do.
I mean, we have an institution of women and to
keep their families together. They have all these kids that
you have no connection to. So many times they'll say, oh,
(20:21):
my Johnny's birthday is such and such, and he loves
motorbikes and I'll cross to your motorbike. There's that, And
then we just had the organization Let's Get Free, and
it helps support different functions and opportunities for lifers. And
there's an art show every year. It's coming up at September,
(20:42):
by the way, And I made five projects for them
to be donated so they can raise money. It's an
auction and I made this huge thing that was the
twenty third song, and that came at seventy five dollars.
They got seventy five dollars for another one came to fit.
So everything you donate is auctioned off and then they
(21:04):
use the money to help with the things they need
to help with.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Well, again your face lights. Yeah, the giving, the purpose
of giving. Since you've been here.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
There's no other way, doctor k. There's just no other
way to help out. And I know people, we don't
just drain on society. I would like to think that
if we can, we can do something like when somebody
I'm big on re entry, huge andre I've taught re
entry for years. When some of the women are stuck
(21:37):
maybe for their parole hearings or the things they have
to write out, it's really rewarding when I know what
to do and I help them do what they can
do so they can get out of here. Somebody's going home,
you know, So that's really a wonderful thing.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Yeah, I'm going to ask you about aging from your perspective,
aging when you, you know, when you first came into
where you are today, what is that experience for you
personally has been?
Speaker 2 (22:08):
You know, I was always extremely active and I still
am at seventy five. But I see things there's very
limited opportunities for the aging, especially women. I don't know
how the men are. We were supposed to get half
of Laurel. It's a place where you go where they're
(22:29):
aging and the men because of numbers. They have so
many men and we don't. So many times we're overlooked.
That's why this is so wonderful because it gives us exposure.
It shows people, you know, this is who we are,
this is what we need. Can you help? Can you
do something? I know a very old lifer that she's
(22:50):
eighty four, and sometimes they'll send some of us up.
She gets lost up at the other end of the grounds.
There's nowhere for her. So I have to wonder why
why the men have it? Why why can't we have
a place. There's got to be funding out there. There
(23:12):
has to be. And so what they do as many
times is they put them in the infirmary. You're not
allowed any visits in the infirmary. They sometimes lock them in,
so there you are sitting there to wait to die.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
That's not good.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
I mean, if you're not crazy before you go.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
But what about you that thank you for that? What
about yourself though? When you reflect upon the shall we say,
the physical, the psychological? When you look at yourself and
over the years, how does that impact you?
Speaker 2 (23:47):
I get very I get very exasperated with myself. I
get really mad at myself because you know, I'm used
to going here and there and running around people. Anybody
that knows me here, they know. I used to always
be buzzing or and doing, trying to do so much
and had fun doing it. Now I'm in an age
(24:07):
where I got to slow it down, and I don't
like it, but that's it. That's what I have. But
I got a cane, which is I almost died about
a year ago, and they gave me a cane. They're
always asking me, don't you want a wheelchair? No, I don't.
(24:28):
I do not want a wheelchair, because you know once.
I believe once you get one of those, you become
very dependent, and that's not good. So I get frustrated
with myself a lot because I'm not as active as
i'd like to be. I can't go many places like
I used to do. It takes me longer to do everything,
and that's really annoying.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Just in general, Dorothy, I'm more curious still about your
veteran shall we say background. Can you share that with
us please.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
It didn't start out that I want to join the army.
It didn't start out that way. It didn't start out
that some people join the army just to draw the service,
just to get away. That wasn't my goal. My dad
was a World War Two veteran and he was the
stories and you know, that's what you hear. And it was.
(25:25):
And my brother is five years younger than me, and
he decided to we're now in the Vietnam era. He said,
you have to enlist. I was going to lose my
brother and I said no. So I told him go
to Canada. Go to I would pay for him to
(25:46):
go to Canada. I guess I can't do that. I said, well,
then we have to find something. Well, I was already
a nurse, and I knew I would go in as
an officer. I wouldn't be in the front lines like
he would. And so I told my dad, is this
good enough for you? I'll serve and let him go.
(26:07):
He was already accepted to Clarion. He had a life,
you know. And so that's why I joined. That's the
only reason why I joined. I wanted to keep my
brother and I didn't know how else to do that.
So I joined, and I joined a mass unit. And
it was you remember the show on TV. Well, it
(26:30):
was definitely it had definitely ted bits of that, but
it was grueling. I served in Vietnam for thirteen months,
and they wanted me to re enlist, to re up.
They promised me a captain spot. And you know, I
(26:52):
had some close calls over there. I had to jump
in water and go underwater because I I was going
to get shot. There was some close calls. I decided,
let's not press my luck. So I came back stateside
and they assigned me to Fort sam Houston, the Academy
of Science, and I taught nurses, medics, things like that.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Well, yeah, thank you for your service.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Thank you, you're welcome.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Can you share a little bit more about when you
said you taught when you came back, what was that experience? Like, oh,
how long?
Speaker 2 (27:29):
How long did you I taught for two years down there.
It was a very nice assignment. But you know, have
you ever she have you ever taught a bunch of nurses?
They're so irreverent, and you know, aside from how to
wear the uniform, there were things in combat that you
(27:51):
have to know. And you can't just get on that
carrier and fly over there and just dig in because
it's not like any hospital here. So I had to
show them. I had to teach them that. I had
to you know, it was a whole different kind of
education that I had to learn myself. And I drew
(28:12):
on my experiences over there when we would be in
ther for fourteen eighteen hours, you know, and it was
definitely different. You have to be you can't be selfish.
You can't be selfish and do things like that. It's impossible.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
And what about personal trauma? Do you look back and think, well,
there were experiences that were traumatic, no doubt for you
whilst serving. Is there anything any recollection of something that
you felt at that time you know, or has impacted
you still to this day. Regarding that experience.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
There was a helicopter that we're taking three nurses. I
was one of them, and we were picking up people
and we had an accident. I ended up. Never in
my life did I think I'd ever see a fox call.
Well I did, and I was in the middle the
(29:14):
one my friend got her armor shot off and the
one on this side was killed. And aside from everything else,
I go to sleep with that, I wake up with that,
and if I'm successful, I will forget about it for
(29:35):
a day.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Thank you, Thank you. It's not easy, Dorothy, and I'm
very grateful, thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
I have to say one thing. When we came home,
they weren't nice. There were no parades, there were no
accolades because it was it was a very unpopular war. Yes,
(30:10):
so that hurts to this day and I cry about
it because I think you don't realize.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Thank you, Thank you, Dorothy. Could we talk a little
bit about I don't know if this is following up.
I'm glad you're smiling because I'm onto the next question.
And it is a little bit to do, not a
little bit. It is about we talked about aging in
(30:41):
the prison system, but it's also about death and dying
in the prison system, and again reflecting what you've endured
in the military realm. But do you ever think about
that or is that something you cast aside and just
get on with your daily activity any life here.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
When I was sentenced, yes, and you know that was
clear back in ninety two, so a lot of women
weren't going to prison and they, you know, especially with
life sentences. And the judge was not nice and he
said well and he said you're going to die in prison. Well,
(31:26):
so when I think about that, I'm actually grateful that
I live here at Muncie. There are other prisons that
I know about that are far less giving. I'm not
saying they do everything right, because I'll be the first one, okay,
but they they're sensitive, they can be sensitive to needs.
(31:50):
I mean, I'm not getting raped, I'm not getting beat
up every day. If there was an officer that was
unusually discussed sting or rude, there's avenues for me to
check that. So I can't say I'm suffering. My suffering
comes without my family. That's where it comes from. And
(32:13):
so when people talk about, oh, you're in prison, you
should be punished. No, prison is my punishment. Just I
don't care if they give me all sorts of privileges
or all kinds of good food or pizza every night.
I don't care about that. They give me ice. I
(32:35):
don't care about ice. I mean it's nice, but but
my punishment isn't prison. It's being away from my family.
That's what it is.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
So when I think about I mean, you already told
me I was going to die in prison. So anything
commutation is offered by state law. If I ever get
the opportunity to be successful in a commutation process, that
(33:09):
would be such a blessing. If I don't. Then I
have to reflect on the decision that I made when
I first got here, and that was I can do
this time two different ways. I can end up in
fighting and doing all kinds of things, ending up in
(33:29):
restricted housing, or I can stand in my comfortable little
room and do the right thing and be productive. And
a few years into this, I saw a lot of
things that I decided that I needed to Not that
I'm perfect, that break rolls too, but it's a better
(33:50):
way of living. I like my stuff, you know, I
like my stuff around me, so it's better that way
and trying to be productive help out do things than
anything else. So no, I don't really give it a
lot of thought. Sometimes younger girls will say to me,
(34:10):
you know, I don't know how to ask you this,
But I only have a year to do. How did
you survive? How did you do thirty some years? And
you have to your choice comes. You have to decide
what you want to do with it. But there's no
other way. You just have to. It is what it is.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Thank you, Thank you so much. Before we finish up today,
I just want to ask friendships, relationships here inside and
on the outside. Family, as you say, that's like you've
given that up completely. What tell me a bit about that.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Well, I only have a brother left, okay, and he's
always right there behind me, always ah, And I'm grateful
for that.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Can I say something, Dorothy, Yeah, brothers are like that.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
I have two of them.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Said, they are like that.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
I know, and I just I think to myself, he's
always on the end the other end of the phone.
I call and I say, you know, I need such
a sense. He look at me and he'll say, really,
you really need that. But he's always there. And I'm
grateful for that because there's a lot of women who
don't have that. Yes, they don't have families, they don't
have anything, and they live off stay pay, which is abominable.
(35:29):
So you just you're grateful for that. Friends, I have
always been. Have you ever done the group colors? No?
Well they have different colors and it's your personality and
it doesn't change over the years. And my personality is
(35:52):
I stand back and I don't make friends friends friends
like easily. I have to know you for twenty years
and so those are the kind of things that do
I have friends, sure, but not close dependable. And I'm
(36:16):
not sure you get that in prison. I think you
have to be around a long time now. I know
some women do, but it's just not in me. That's all.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Yeah, my goodness, we could talk a lot, couldn't we. Well,
we're nearly run out of time. But Dorothy, before we
go summarizing, what would you like the people to know
now about you? Before we finish, let's end on that note.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
I once lived in a great life. I did things
that were important, that were mean with people, with my community,
and of course I can't do that here. There is
a community, but it's very limited. I'm not the same
(37:10):
person that I was many years ago, but I'm still
that person that wants to do I want to be
a good neighbor. I want to be helpful. I want
to do something, and my life is on pause right now.
(37:31):
There's nothing that I can do that's you know, like
I feel like I'm frozen in time. Except for my
seventy five years, I feel like I'm frozen in time,
and I want to get out of that. I want
to do again. I want to have some kind of
(37:51):
effect the election. Oh I'm a terrible political buff. I
would want to get so involved. I want to talk
to people I want to do things and I can't,
and if the opportunity ever arises, I mean, my time
is running out, doctor Kate. I'm seventy five now. They
(38:14):
laugh at me and they say, oh, the doctor says,
your healthy as a horse, and that can be. But
you never know when that's going to turn around, That's right.
But I hope that I have many good years left
and maybe I will leave here. I don't know. It's
not a hope, it's a reality. The reality is still
(38:35):
that I'm here and I'm going to be here unless
something else happens, and that's how I have to live.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
Thank you, Dorothy.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
Wow, thank you very much. Thank you very much for
doing this.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
Oh, thank you, Dorothy. It has been amazing talking to you.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Thank you, thank you very much. This is such wonderful
because you know, women are on the fringe because we
don't have the numbers, so this is wonderful. Thank you
so much.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
Thank you, Dorothy.
Speaker 4 (39:19):
Thank you for joining us on another episode of Self
Identities Conversations with Convicted Women, a Flying Possums production in
association with Nutter Productions. We deeply appreciate the support of
our listeners and the contributions from everyone who has made
this podcast possible. Your engagement and encouragement drive us to
(39:43):
continue these important conversations until next time. Take care.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
He then
Speaker 4 (40:09):
Move us
We'd like to acknowledge for our listeners just upfront that
what you will hear from individual incarcerated women throughout the
episode you may find to be emotionally charged and even disturbing,
So we just want to acknowledge that and make you
aware of that. Furthermore, something that listeners probably don't realize
(00:26):
is that all of our individual conversations with each woman
was recorded inside a maximum security prison, the State Correctional
Institution SCI Munsey in Pennsylvania here in the United States.
So the noise, there's any chatter, anything in the background.
(00:47):
For our listeners just to understand that we actually recorded
inside a prison where the day goes on. The women,
the officers, the staff, they all have their jobs. Just
because we're there, it does stop. Well, everything becomes quiet.
So if you do, as listeners here any background noise,
please understand that is part of being inside a prison.
(01:20):
Hello everyone, and thank you for tuning in to our podcast,
Self Identities Conversations with Convicted Women. My name is doctor
Catherine Whiteley, and I'm a feminist criminologist. Today I'm visiting
SCI Muncy, a state correctional facility for women in Pennsylvania
(01:42):
in the United States and joining me today is Dorothy. Welcome,
Thank you very much. It is great to finally meet
you in person. So, of course, just to share with
the listeners, we've never met in person before, only once
we've spoken via a zoom, so this is all very
(02:03):
new to you. It is yes, yes, and to expect
in our discussion we thought about don't come prepared with notes.
Let's just have a conversation and you're happy with that,
so here we are. Okay, thank you, Dorothy. Let's go back,
if you don't mind, and share with us how old
(02:24):
were you when you first entered sci Muncy and how
long have you been here? And if you don't mind
me asking, and what is your age today? Please?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Well, originally I came to Mounsey in nineteen ninety two
and I've been here thirty two years. And how old
are you today?
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Oh, shouldn't I ask?
Speaker 2 (02:54):
I just recently turned seventy five.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Well, many happy returns, thank you.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
It took me two days toity over that. Yeah, So let's.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Go back, if you don't mind, Dorothy, because people, or
our listeners, I should say, they want to learn who
is Dorothy? Who was Dorothy? Even before the incarceration experience.
So could we go back to your childhood and talk
or if you could share, where were you born, what
was your childhood like, and let's move forward to where
(03:24):
we are today. That's good, okay, Well let's start.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Well, I was born in Johnstown, Pennsylvania, and I had
a really I had a good childhood mom, dad, a
little brother, and there wasn't anything odd, strange, anything like that.
And it was a good childhood, good family life for
the most part. And then I went to school to college.
(03:55):
I have a master's in nursing and that was always
very rewarding for me. And then in ninety one the
crime took place. And then in ninety two is when
I came to Monci.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Right, thank you.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
I'm going to take you back again to your childhood.
When you mentioned you had a normal, loving child. Yeah,
was this something that you loved to do or you know,
what did you do growing up? What was something that
interested you?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Well? I loved dogs and I love to swim, So
those are really my two favorite things. I was a
drum adread I love to do that, so I was
I was an integral part of the band plus my dogs,
and it was good.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
And you mentioned school now you went and completed school
and then you went on to do a higher education.
But let's go back to the school years. Did you know,
what did you do then or who did you hang
out with?
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Well? I was in the band for years and my
best friend was also in the band, so we were
inseparable for many years. She would spend half the summer
at my house and I'd spend half the summer in
her house. So it was very nice. But I graduated
on commercial course. You know, back then we were girls
(05:16):
were supposed to get married and have children. That just
wasn't for me. I had to keep going. I wanted
to do something else, and so that's when I first started.
I applied and then I got my registered nursing diploma,
and then I wanted to get my bachelor's and then
my master's. So I really filled up.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
I loved it, loved it. And the nursing piecs what again,
just taking us through that the thought process why nursing,
you know, and going back in those years, why nursing?
Speaker 2 (05:48):
I'll tell you why. My dad was a steel worker,
healthy as a horse, never missed a day's work, and
one day he got really sick and he spent two
weeks in bed with pneumonia. You know, at bethleem Steel
you have to get a chest X ray every month.
When he came back, when he went back to work,
(06:10):
there was a huge range size spot on his lung.
It took a year when he died. When I remember
those days, I remember all the questions I had and
why he was a young man. He was forty Wait,
let's see, he was fifty one, so young, and I
(06:32):
wanted to know, And so I think that's what drove
me initially until I really got a taste of it,
and then I really liked it.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
And what was the part about nursing that you really liked.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
I like, I like new things. I'd like exciting things,
and nursing was always you have to really pick apart
something to find out what's wrong. And you know, I
was really one of the first back in I graduated
(07:05):
seventy and so nurses training, and nurses didn't get involved
in a lot of scientific things. Well I didn't like that,
and so I always I was with the doctors. I
was here, I was there, so I had to find
out and science was big for me. I just kept
(07:26):
on going. I wanted to know the answers.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Thank you, And I'm going to take you back again
to your childhood. How would you describe yourself as a
young girl? How would you sitting here now and reflecting
back there, Dorothy? Who was Dorothy as a little girl?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
I was always double edged sword. I was always just
like kind of now I've spoken, I'm direct, not in
an offensive way, but I'm big on just say it,
just tell me the truth or be honest. I just
(08:06):
think that's that's a huge quality to have in a person.
And I'm not saying it always gets me places because
that is a double edged sword, but it's always benefited me.
People trust me because of it, and I get things
done because of it.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
So yeah, and today, sitting opposite me, when you talk
about that, who is Dorothy today?
Speaker 2 (08:32):
I'm not the same person I used to be. I'm
a lot quieter, still outspoken, but I'm a lot quieter.
I think about things more, and that's that's helped. It's
helped along the way, especially after thirty two years.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Here, right, thirty two years? Yeah, yeah, well let's talk
about that. So Dorothy before or just prior to entering
the institution here, Sei Muncie, what was Dorothy like then,
what was happening.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
To Dorothy right before I came, just before.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
You came, before the crime was committed, because we're not
talking about the crime or criminality, but people wondering what
happened was what was Dorothy like then? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I got married at twenty one, and I had a
good husband. But I got married in the wake of
my dad's death, Okay, and I'm not sure that was
a good thing. And at twenty one I was young.
People shouldn't get married at twenty one, they just shouldn't.
(09:47):
But I had to. I just I had to go.
I had to I had to turn around and make
a different life. The life I chose wasn't healthy or
safe for me many many times, and knowing that brought
me here after I was married twenty twenty three and
(10:11):
a half years, and so it was some days it
was easy, some days it was rewarding. It was different
because I had a good husband. Some people are meant
for different lives, and that's where I think it went crooked.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Thank you, And I know it's not easy to go
back and reflect on these things, but thank you, Dorothy.
So moving forward a little bit, so here you've just
ended all those years ago, if you can help me
out ended sci Munseille. What were you like then and
what was happening to you? What was going through your
mind then at a young age.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
I was so young and stupid, and I'm not. I
wasn't real street wise, no job, no alcohol. It was
never in my house. I just and then I come
here and what an education. It was such an education.
And you know, people watch to way too much TV,
(11:15):
including me. There's rape and violence and all these things.
So when I came here, that's what I envisioned. That
wasn't the case at Moncei. But I was so afraid.
In fact, well, when I came here, the doctor put
me on huge amount of valume. I was a mess
and I had a seizure in the infirmary because they
(11:39):
cut it off because there's some drugs they don't give here.
Well after that, I wouldn't go out at night. I
wouldn't go out at night for anything. I was afraid.
There were bushes all around, and I was afraid to
come from here to our infirmary. So one day one
of the sergeants came and he said, far By, what
(12:00):
are you doing go to medline? And he said why
and I told him because I'm afraid, and he laughed,
he thought that was so funny. Well, a major was
working here and he came down and he said, come on,
let's go. I'll walk you to Medline. Do you know
(12:20):
that man walk me to medline for two whole weeks
at night, lovely so and he showed me things and
look at this, and look at that. So by the
end of the second week he said to me, so,
what do you think you think? You're okay? Are you?
How do you feel? And I was so grateful to him,
(12:42):
and I said, I'm good, and I'm just I'll never
forget him. Never he's no longer here, I'll never forget him.
What a kind gentleman.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Isn't that wonderful to hear? Because you don't often hear
the goodness, you know you here in any institution.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Well, we have some, you know, that are judgmental and
those kind of things, but that is.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
A norm across any any institution in any country, you know.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
But there are some people that extend themselves and it's
you become so grateful when you see that.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Yes, wonder thank you.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
I'll never forget that. And I grew up in those
two weeks.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Yeah, isn't that interesting? Yeah? So what do you do?
What is a day like for you? Dorothy? What what
is your life like?
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Wells, I love to cross ditch so any any Yes,
I love to and I the colors make me feel
good because you know, we're in brown, but the colors
make me feel so wonderful. And then I cross ditch
all sorts of things. So in my spare time, I
do that and I read. But I also work in maintenance.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
So what is that now? People wanting to know that
are listening? What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Well, I'm seventy five and I don't get around greatly,
but I get around and I have a wonderful boss. See,
I've worked for maintenance for probably twenty years off and
on here Cambridge, and so I needed a job when
I came back from Cambridge and my boss now said,
(14:17):
we'll see what we can do. So they hired me
again and I work a couple of days. I work Monday,
Wednesday and Friday. I clean, I do his office. I
do things like that and it's wonderful and he pays
me for that. I'm so great, I'd say to him
all the time, Yes, you pay me to do little
(14:38):
things around the shop because you know, I know how
to do drills and saws and I learned all that
years ago. But I'm not it's not a good fit
for me now right. He doesn't care. He says, do this,
do that. If somebody wants a chair, I'll clean it
up for them, things like that, And it's just it's
healthy for me. It's helped me. It's healthy for me
(15:00):
to get up, to get ready to go to work,
to do things, to walk back. It just is. And
then when I come back, I'll either shower or maybe
I'll look at a project that I'm doing. And I
live in a unit. I live in a veterans unit.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Now we're going to talk a little bit about that.
Thank you for well that's a whole another thing. But
we will have time out and I'll have some questions
on that. So if you don't mind me interrupting you, now,
let's focus a little bit on that. So could you
share a little bit about what is a veterans unit
and what do you do.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Well a veterans unit. And by the way, we are
the only female veterans unit in the state, no, no,
in the country. We're it. So that's impressive.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Significant.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
It is significant, and it's impressive, and we do a
lot of things. Initially, we have are you familiar with
a a garden? Back in the nineteen forties and fifties,
we had now I lost my care a victory garden, right, yes, yes,
(16:11):
and so that's where the women excelled. So we have
one of those, and it is gorgeous.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
And tell me, though a little bit more, what is
the victory gardens?
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Victory gardens? Way back when when we went to war,
people needed food. Their husbands were gone, women were at home,
and they we needed not only to donate and to
give back, but we needed the women had to provide
for their families because now they were at home by themselves.
And that's what the gardens grew up all. The first
(16:42):
garden was Roosevelt, missus Roosevelt, and she had one. She
asked her husband to make a plot in the front
yard of the White House, and that's where her garden started.
And it caught on all over the country.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
And so here in s have this victory guidence. Yes,
and tell us a little bit about you know what
else happens at this particular Veterans unit. Well, what is
that place.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
It's really you know, nobody's ever No, we certainly never
had a garden. We have full time gardeners. They go out,
they weed, they plow, they do all sorts of things.
And luckily the administration helps us do this, you know,
they order things that we need. You know, we started
(17:31):
out instead of shovels, we were using dust pans.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
It happens, doesn't it. You use whatever is.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
About it exactly to get the job done. Yes, But
the main thing about this garden is donation. We have.
We donate to Wounded Warriors, Robin's House where female veterans go.
We donate to so many agencies that are veteran related
(18:00):
and it's it's really great. Now we just are our product.
Now we just pulled and weighed eight hundred pounds.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Plus, really and this is all going to be distributed.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
All donated. Now we have we grow a few herbs
and things like that. We have a culinary program here, yes,
and it's it's a great program. They don't have a
big budget, so what we do is we take a
lot of the herbs and things and we donate to
that program. So it kind of it kind of benefits
several people it's really a great thing. Tomatoes, onions, broccoli, pumpkins, watermelon, cucumbers,
(18:43):
you name it, we have it.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Isn't that wonderful? So how long is this? How long
has this been going for?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Three years?
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Three years?
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Well three years plus but full force three years? Right, Yeah,
it wonderful and it's beautiful. It's right out right down there.
You can even see from.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Here, well there you go there, anyone, it's listening. There's
a window behind me, and if I look out, I
will possibly see the gardens. Thank you, And I can
see like your face just as lit up when you're
talking about that and the giving back, and that's and
the giving back and helping others, no doubt, even no
doubt before you came to prison, but particularly now it
(19:20):
seems relevant as part of your coping mechanism.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Here because we don't get a lot of opportunity to
give right, you know, it's we buy commissary and we
do our things, and but really to give back, yes,
we don't have that, and especially as a lifer, yes,
you's it's significant. It's wonderful to.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Do and giving back. I'm going to skip on a
head here about your cross ditch.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
You mentioned It.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Reminds me of my mother, my grandmother all those years ago.
They very much did that. So when you make something,
what happens to that because people are wondering what do
you do this work?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Well, there's some It depends on what you want to do.
I mean, we have an institution of women and to
keep their families together. They have all these kids that
you have no connection to. So many times they'll say, oh,
(20:21):
my Johnny's birthday is such and such, and he loves
motorbikes and I'll cross to your motorbike. There's that, And
then we just had the organization Let's Get Free, and
it helps support different functions and opportunities for lifers. And
there's an art show every year. It's coming up at September,
(20:42):
by the way, And I made five projects for them
to be donated so they can raise money. It's an
auction and I made this huge thing that was the
twenty third song, and that came at seventy five dollars.
They got seventy five dollars for another one came to fit.
So everything you donate is auctioned off and then they
(21:04):
use the money to help with the things they need
to help with.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Well, again your face lights. Yeah, the giving, the purpose
of giving. Since you've been here.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
There's no other way, doctor k. There's just no other
way to help out. And I know people, we don't
just drain on society. I would like to think that
if we can, we can do something like when somebody
I'm big on re entry, huge andre I've taught re
entry for years. When some of the women are stuck
(21:37):
maybe for their parole hearings or the things they have
to write out, it's really rewarding when I know what
to do and I help them do what they can
do so they can get out of here. Somebody's going home,
you know, So that's really a wonderful thing.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Yeah, I'm going to ask you about aging from your perspective,
aging when you, you know, when you first came into
where you are today, what is that experience for you
personally has been?
Speaker 2 (22:08):
You know, I was always extremely active and I still
am at seventy five. But I see things there's very
limited opportunities for the aging, especially women. I don't know
how the men are. We were supposed to get half
of Laurel. It's a place where you go where they're
(22:29):
aging and the men because of numbers. They have so
many men and we don't. So many times we're overlooked.
That's why this is so wonderful because it gives us exposure.
It shows people, you know, this is who we are,
this is what we need. Can you help? Can you
do something? I know a very old lifer that she's
(22:50):
eighty four, and sometimes they'll send some of us up.
She gets lost up at the other end of the grounds.
There's nowhere for her. So I have to wonder why
why the men have it? Why why can't we have
a place. There's got to be funding out there. There
(23:12):
has to be. And so what they do as many
times is they put them in the infirmary. You're not
allowed any visits in the infirmary. They sometimes lock them in,
so there you are sitting there to wait to die.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
That's not good.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
I mean, if you're not crazy before you go.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
But what about you that thank you for that? What
about yourself though? When you reflect upon the shall we say,
the physical, the psychological? When you look at yourself and
over the years, how does that impact you?
Speaker 2 (23:47):
I get very I get very exasperated with myself. I
get really mad at myself because you know, I'm used
to going here and there and running around people. Anybody
that knows me here, they know. I used to always
be buzzing or and doing, trying to do so much
and had fun doing it. Now I'm in an age
(24:07):
where I got to slow it down, and I don't
like it, but that's it. That's what I have. But
I got a cane, which is I almost died about
a year ago, and they gave me a cane. They're
always asking me, don't you want a wheelchair? No, I don't.
(24:28):
I do not want a wheelchair, because you know once.
I believe once you get one of those, you become
very dependent, and that's not good. So I get frustrated
with myself a lot because I'm not as active as
i'd like to be. I can't go many places like
I used to do. It takes me longer to do everything,
and that's really annoying.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Just in general, Dorothy, I'm more curious still about your
veteran shall we say background. Can you share that with
us please.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
It didn't start out that I want to join the army.
It didn't start out that way. It didn't start out
that some people join the army just to draw the service,
just to get away. That wasn't my goal. My dad
was a World War Two veteran and he was the
stories and you know, that's what you hear. And it was.
(25:25):
And my brother is five years younger than me, and
he decided to we're now in the Vietnam era. He said,
you have to enlist. I was going to lose my
brother and I said no. So I told him go
to Canada. Go to I would pay for him to
(25:46):
go to Canada. I guess I can't do that. I said, well,
then we have to find something. Well, I was already
a nurse, and I knew I would go in as
an officer. I wouldn't be in the front lines like
he would. And so I told my dad, is this
good enough for you? I'll serve and let him go.
(26:07):
He was already accepted to Clarion. He had a life,
you know. And so that's why I joined. That's the
only reason why I joined. I wanted to keep my
brother and I didn't know how else to do that.
So I joined, and I joined a mass unit. And
it was you remember the show on TV. Well, it
(26:30):
was definitely it had definitely ted bits of that, but
it was grueling. I served in Vietnam for thirteen months,
and they wanted me to re enlist, to re up.
They promised me a captain spot. And you know, I
(26:52):
had some close calls over there. I had to jump
in water and go underwater because I I was going
to get shot. There was some close calls. I decided,
let's not press my luck. So I came back stateside
and they assigned me to Fort sam Houston, the Academy
of Science, and I taught nurses, medics, things like that.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Well, yeah, thank you for your service.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Thank you, you're welcome.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Can you share a little bit more about when you
said you taught when you came back, what was that experience? Like, oh,
how long?
Speaker 2 (27:29):
How long did you I taught for two years down there.
It was a very nice assignment. But you know, have
you ever she have you ever taught a bunch of nurses?
They're so irreverent, and you know, aside from how to
wear the uniform, there were things in combat that you
(27:51):
have to know. And you can't just get on that
carrier and fly over there and just dig in because
it's not like any hospital here. So I had to
show them. I had to teach them that. I had
to you know, it was a whole different kind of
education that I had to learn myself. And I drew
(28:12):
on my experiences over there when we would be in
ther for fourteen eighteen hours, you know, and it was
definitely different. You have to be you can't be selfish.
You can't be selfish and do things like that. It's impossible.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
And what about personal trauma? Do you look back and think, well,
there were experiences that were traumatic, no doubt for you
whilst serving. Is there anything any recollection of something that
you felt at that time you know, or has impacted
you still to this day. Regarding that experience.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
There was a helicopter that we're taking three nurses. I
was one of them, and we were picking up people
and we had an accident. I ended up. Never in
my life did I think I'd ever see a fox call.
Well I did, and I was in the middle the
(29:14):
one my friend got her armor shot off and the
one on this side was killed. And aside from everything else,
I go to sleep with that, I wake up with that,
and if I'm successful, I will forget about it for
(29:35):
a day.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Thank you, Thank you. It's not easy, Dorothy, and I'm
very grateful, thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
I have to say one thing. When we came home,
they weren't nice. There were no parades, there were no
accolades because it was it was a very unpopular war. Yes,
(30:10):
so that hurts to this day and I cry about
it because I think you don't realize.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Thank you, Thank you, Dorothy. Could we talk a little
bit about I don't know if this is following up.
I'm glad you're smiling because I'm onto the next question.
And it is a little bit to do, not a
little bit. It is about we talked about aging in
(30:41):
the prison system, but it's also about death and dying
in the prison system, and again reflecting what you've endured
in the military realm. But do you ever think about
that or is that something you cast aside and just
get on with your daily activity any life here.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
When I was sentenced, yes, and you know that was
clear back in ninety two, so a lot of women
weren't going to prison and they, you know, especially with
life sentences. And the judge was not nice and he
said well and he said you're going to die in prison. Well,
(31:26):
so when I think about that, I'm actually grateful that
I live here at Muncie. There are other prisons that
I know about that are far less giving. I'm not
saying they do everything right, because I'll be the first one, okay,
but they they're sensitive, they can be sensitive to needs.
(31:50):
I mean, I'm not getting raped, I'm not getting beat
up every day. If there was an officer that was
unusually discussed sting or rude, there's avenues for me to
check that. So I can't say I'm suffering. My suffering
comes without my family. That's where it comes from. And
(32:13):
so when people talk about, oh, you're in prison, you
should be punished. No, prison is my punishment. Just I
don't care if they give me all sorts of privileges
or all kinds of good food or pizza every night.
I don't care about that. They give me ice. I
(32:35):
don't care about ice. I mean it's nice, but but
my punishment isn't prison. It's being away from my family.
That's what it is.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
So when I think about I mean, you already told
me I was going to die in prison. So anything
commutation is offered by state law. If I ever get
the opportunity to be successful in a commutation process, that
(33:09):
would be such a blessing. If I don't. Then I
have to reflect on the decision that I made when
I first got here, and that was I can do
this time two different ways. I can end up in
fighting and doing all kinds of things, ending up in
(33:29):
restricted housing, or I can stand in my comfortable little
room and do the right thing and be productive. And
a few years into this, I saw a lot of
things that I decided that I needed to Not that
I'm perfect, that break rolls too, but it's a better
(33:50):
way of living. I like my stuff, you know, I
like my stuff around me, so it's better that way
and trying to be productive help out do things than
anything else. So no, I don't really give it a
lot of thought. Sometimes younger girls will say to me,
(34:10):
you know, I don't know how to ask you this,
But I only have a year to do. How did
you survive? How did you do thirty some years? And
you have to your choice comes. You have to decide
what you want to do with it. But there's no
other way. You just have to. It is what it is.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Thank you, Thank you so much. Before we finish up today,
I just want to ask friendships, relationships here inside and
on the outside. Family, as you say, that's like you've
given that up completely. What tell me a bit about that.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Well, I only have a brother left, okay, and he's
always right there behind me, always ah, And I'm grateful
for that.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Can I say something, Dorothy, Yeah, brothers are like that.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
I have two of them.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Said, they are like that.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
I know, and I just I think to myself, he's
always on the end the other end of the phone.
I call and I say, you know, I need such
a sense. He look at me and he'll say, really,
you really need that. But he's always there. And I'm
grateful for that because there's a lot of women who
don't have that. Yes, they don't have families, they don't
have anything, and they live off stay pay, which is abominable.
(35:29):
So you just you're grateful for that. Friends, I have
always been. Have you ever done the group colors? No?
Well they have different colors and it's your personality and
it doesn't change over the years. And my personality is
(35:52):
I stand back and I don't make friends friends friends
like easily. I have to know you for twenty years
and so those are the kind of things that do
I have friends, sure, but not close dependable. And I'm
(36:16):
not sure you get that in prison. I think you
have to be around a long time now. I know
some women do, but it's just not in me. That's all.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Yeah, my goodness, we could talk a lot, couldn't we. Well,
we're nearly run out of time. But Dorothy, before we
go summarizing, what would you like the people to know
now about you? Before we finish, let's end on that note.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
I once lived in a great life. I did things
that were important, that were mean with people, with my community,
and of course I can't do that here. There is
a community, but it's very limited. I'm not the same
(37:10):
person that I was many years ago, but I'm still
that person that wants to do I want to be
a good neighbor. I want to be helpful. I want
to do something, and my life is on pause right now.
(37:31):
There's nothing that I can do that's you know, like
I feel like I'm frozen in time. Except for my
seventy five years, I feel like I'm frozen in time,
and I want to get out of that. I want
to do again. I want to have some kind of
(37:51):
effect the election. Oh I'm a terrible political buff. I
would want to get so involved. I want to talk
to people I want to do things and I can't,
and if the opportunity ever arises, I mean, my time
is running out, doctor Kate. I'm seventy five now. They
(38:14):
laugh at me and they say, oh, the doctor says,
your healthy as a horse, and that can be. But
you never know when that's going to turn around, That's right.
But I hope that I have many good years left
and maybe I will leave here. I don't know. It's
not a hope, it's a reality. The reality is still
(38:35):
that I'm here and I'm going to be here unless
something else happens, and that's how I have to live.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
Thank you, Dorothy.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
Wow, thank you very much. Thank you very much for
doing this.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
Oh, thank you, Dorothy. It has been amazing talking to you.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Thank you, thank you very much. This is such wonderful
because you know, women are on the fringe because we
don't have the numbers, so this is wonderful. Thank you
so much.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
Thank you, Dorothy.
Speaker 4 (39:19):
Thank you for joining us on another episode of Self
Identities Conversations with Convicted Women, a Flying Possums production in
association with Nutter Productions. We deeply appreciate the support of
our listeners and the contributions from everyone who has made
this podcast possible. Your engagement and encouragement drive us to
(39:43):
continue these important conversations until next time. Take care.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
He then
Speaker 4 (40:09):
Move us
Popular Podcasts
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.