April 1, 2025 • 42 mins
At just 14 years old, Jamie was charged as an adult and sent to county jail—a decision that would shape the rest of her life. Shortly after, she was incarcerated at SCI-Muncy, where she has remained ever since. Now 23, Jamie reflects on her journey, the loving family she left behind, and the reality of serving a minimum 35-year sentence.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
We'd like to acknowledge for our listeners just upfront that
what you will hear from individual incarcerated women throughout the
episode you may find to be emotionally charged and even disturbing,
So we just want to acknowledge that and make you
aware of that. Furthermore, something that listeners probably don't realize
(00:22):
is that all of our individual conversations with each woman
was recorded inside a maximum security prison, the State Correctional
Institution SCI Munsey in Pennsylvania here in the United States.
So the noise, there's any chatter, anything in the background.
(00:44):
For our listeners just to understand that we actually recorded
inside a prison where the day goes on. The women,
the officers, the staff, they all have their jobs. Just
because we're there, it doesn't stop or everything becomes quiet.
So if you do, as listeners here any background noise,
please understand that is part of being inside a prison.
(01:18):
Hello everyone, and thank you for tuning into our podcast
Self Identities Conversations with Convicted Women. My name is doctor
Catherine Whiteley, and I'm a feminist criminologist. Today I'm visiting
SCI Muncy, a state correctional facility for women in Pennsylvania
(01:39):
here in the United States and today joining me are
too important, I'll say people, Oh.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Maybe he's a person.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Okay, So what I'm going to do is welcome Jamie
and Gigi, who is our guest pop this morning. How
are you, Jamie good?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
How are you?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
I'm great, and it's one wonderful to see you. Take
it is, and we'll let the listeners know that you
have known each other for many years. We have, and
we've had some fun We've had some fun stories to
share with the listeners a little bit later on. But
as I said, we welcome you and Gigi the pups.
So for our listeners that are tuning in, if you
hear some sound effects, just know it's just Gg chewing
(02:21):
his bone in the background. But that's all part of
the course. So Jamie, I'd like to take you back
to your childhood. Would you be able to go as
far as you can think back? What was your childhood
like your upbringing?
Speaker 3 (02:36):
I was definitely blessed to have a pretty wonderful childhood.
I had an older brother and two parents that loved me.
We were very close knit family and I never questioned
I was loved. I was thief and you know, I
(02:58):
was very blessed in that way.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
And when you talk about growing up in the younger years,
what did you love to do or maybe what didn't
you like to do?
Speaker 2 (03:10):
I mean, as a little girl, like I love to explore.
I've always been a.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Crazy animal person, so I mean some of my earliest
memories were like running around in the backyard, like searching
for insects and birds and trying to capture them. And yeah,
my family and I were pretty outdoorsy. We loved a
camp and fish and yes, those were and those were
some of my favorite things to do as a little girl.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
And where were you born?
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Right outside of Allentown in the Lehigh Valley here in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
And school, let's even just go forward a little bit.
School what was that like for you and what did
you like to study or maybe what didn't you like
to study?
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Always say that originally, for the for the most part
in my childhood, I loved school. I've always loved to learn,
and you know, at first, school was like an environment
that I thrived in. You know, I've always been a student,
and you know it just came naturally to me as
a kid.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
So could you share a little bit about that when
you you know later, you know, in early shall we
say you're early teens. What was your life like then?
Speaker 3 (04:24):
You know, I would say, like the first ten years
of my life were pretty idyllic. You know, I felt love, normal, happy,
you know, as a very happy kid. But around the
time that I started entering puberty, things are to change
for me. And I'm sure as you know, you know,
puberty is a very difficult time for adolest and girls.
You know, you have all these surging hormones, and that's
(04:45):
also the time when we start to compare ourselves to
other people and become cognizant of our bodies and everything.
And you know, I was born with a facial disfigurement,
and you know, originally, growing up it I never really
thought about it and it really.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Wasn't something that impacted my life.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
But you know, as I entered puberty, it was something
that started to really bother me.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
I started to be.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Bullied by some of my peers, and my self esteem
just kind of plummeted.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
How did you work through that?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
I didn't really work through it. I kind of.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Eventually I kind of learned to overcompensate, you know. I
kind of figured, like, well, if I can't be pretty.
I can be smart, and I can be nice, and
I can be all of these other things. But you know,
it's especially in our culture, you know, we place so
much on beauty and like the stereotypical you know, ideal
(05:48):
of like what beauty is, you know, especially for young women.
And it was really difficult for me, you know, being
on social media and seeing what I thought I should
look like, what I thought I should be, and I
you know, I carried a deep sense of hurt and
worthlessness and I didn't I didn't really know how to
(06:09):
process it. And it wasn't something that we really talked
about in my family.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
You know.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
They my parents loved me, and you know, you know,
as a little girl, like they tried to, you know,
take me to doctors to have surgeries to correct it,
and you know, all of that was done out of
love and out of a desire to protect me, you know,
from bullying, from discrimination. But we never really had a
conversation about, you know, what it meant for me. I know,
(06:36):
I think they just they didn't want me to feel
defined by it. But enter in puberty, you know, feeling
all of these emotions and seeing all these things I
did feel defined by it, and I struggled with it.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
And when you shared what you just shared, you struggled
with that. Did you seek or did your family help
you to seek some form of therapy? And I don't
want a pinpoint. Therapy is be an end all here.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
But so, I mean, I can remember I was eleven
and I started struggling with depression. And prior, you know,
I was always, you know, a great student. I was
very involved in sports and you know, extracurricular activities. But suddenly,
like I just started to withdraw and I didn't want to.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
I kind of quit everything.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
I can remember, like I would fake having like migrain
headaches so I didn't have.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
To go to school.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
And at school I would go to the nurse's office
and say, oh, I have a headache and lay there
and wait.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Until someone could come pick me up.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
And and my parents, like they noticed the change in me,
so they started taking me to see a therapist. But
you know, they did all the right things, but at
the time, I didn't really have an ability to like
process my emotions or really understand what it was that
was causing me so much pain, and I didn't take
(07:59):
advantage of it. It really I didn't open up the
way I needed to. I didn't have the ability to
kind of understand or process what I was going through.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Thank you, Thank you for sharing Jamie. From that experience,
is anything that you could discuss or share with our
listeners if they are young or younger and going through
something similar, what would you advice or what would you
share with them, you know, just to help them.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
You know I can remember, I mean, I care a
lot about young people in the justice system, you know, obviously,
because I came to prison at such a young age,
and you know, I can remember what it was like
being so young and everything felt like a crisis. You know,
I can remember, you know how much I hated myself
(08:52):
and how much I felt like I wasn't good enough,
And I remember how desperate I was for attention, for validation,
and how I sought it out in all the wrong ways.
And I know how devastating that can be personally. And
it's hard to tell someone because I know I didn't
(09:14):
believe it. But you know, young women are fine as
they are. You know, I wish I would have understood
that and known I don't have to seek out anyone
else to make me a whole person. But I think
that finding ways to build young women's self esteem is
really important because having those self esteem is kind I know,
(09:35):
is what put me on the trajectory that I was
on and why I've heard so many people as a result,
And I hope that you know nothing similar happens. But
you know, young women continue to come to prison. I
see it every day here, and I think that that's
a significant piece of it.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Thank you, Jamie. How old will you when you first incarcerated?
And then how old are you today?
Speaker 3 (10:05):
I was first in corresorated a few weeks after my
fourteenth birthday and today I'm twenty three, twenty three.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
And going back to that time at the age of fourteen, Now,
did you go to a county jail first, or could
you explain a little bit about if you don't mind,
I know a little bit about that experience and feeling
or at the end of the day, understanding that then
you're going to be sent to a state prison, if
(10:32):
you wouldn't mind sharing that from a young age.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
So in Pennsylvania, certain crimes, you know, are categorized as
adult crimes and the child is automatically charged an adult
court and ultimately the burden is placed on the defendant
to prove that they should be desertified and said back
to juvenour court.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
And you know, it's a very difficult burden to prove,
you know.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
So obviously my crime was categorized as an adult crime
and I was sent to a county jail and it.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Was really traumatic. I don't there's a lot about it.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
I can't remember, you know, because there are certain moments
that I remember. But that year I was in county
jail is kind of just like a blur.
Speaker 4 (11:17):
You know.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
I spent most of my time, you know, in a cell,
and you know, I really kind of disintegrate.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
It, right, And then moving forward comes the time that
you incarcerated in a state prison here in Pennsylvania. When
you first arrived here, if you can reflect back, who
was Jamie then or what was going through Jamie's mind?
If you can, I was a mess.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
You know.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
I had all of this guilt and self hatred and
regret and anger that I never was able to process,
you know, losing my mom, coming to prison and knowing
I was responsible for so much harm. I didn't have
a way to process it or understand it. And I
(12:10):
wasn't in a good place. You know, I was very
self destructive, and you know, it was just I was
really lost.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Thank you, And looking back at that time, is a
state prison what you perceived it to be? Because I
often hear women say, well, you know, media sensationalizes what
a prison looks like for women. How have you emerged,
how have you grown? What have you seen or done
(12:42):
since arriving here? What has it been like for you?
Speaker 3 (12:45):
If you don't, I mean I was terrified, you know,
coming to Steep prison because you know, watching oranges and
new Blacks, you know, all these you know.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Things in the media.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
I had this idea of what prison was, but it's
definitely not what you would think. And you know, over
the you know, over the years, it's hard for me
to even talk about because there's just been so much
like I've just been so blessed. You know, this the
(13:14):
person that I'm becoming, I'm starting to actually like. And
that's because of all of the people on the outside
who've loved me, who've stood by me, and all the
opportunities that I've been given here. You know, I remember
the day I came in, you know, I just turned fifteen,
and you know, I was in missions, and I was
so scared and I was so emotional.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
And there was this.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Little black lab puppy that some of the other handlers
had and they let him see me, and you know,
he licked my face, and you know, that was the
first moment that I was like, oh, you know, because
for the for the year prior, I was so isolated
and so alone, and like seeing that.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
It was like the first ray of hope I felt.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
And you know, that was the initial moment that made
me be like, this is something I can do.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Yes. And when you speak about admissions and I know
this and things we can't share to the public, But
what was what did that process involve? So you're fifteen,
you're entering the prison system, a state prison. What was
the admissions process and what was it like for you?
Speaker 3 (14:20):
It was honestly a lot better than that in county jail.
You know, you're kind of sitting in a self like
all day waiting to be processed into the system. But here,
you know, it's kind of like a trailer that's not
terrifying looking. It's kind of it's decorated inside, and it's
you know, it's actually not terrifying, and you know, you know,
(14:43):
they take your picture, they take information about you and
enter it into the system. And it wasn't as long,
you know, but I mean I didn't know what to expect,
so I was obviously really scared and worried, right.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
And then even moving a little bit forward from there,
could you discuss now the Jamie that's sitting opposite me,
what is it that you do daily? What is who
is Jamie? And what is her life like today?
Speaker 2 (15:12):
I mean, right now, my life is like run by,
you know, for a legged creature. But that's I love it. It's
totally fine.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
So I'm a part of a program where we help
raise and train service dogs and you know, it's a
wonderful thing. And you know, selfishly, I love having and
I love having a puppy. Like I said, I've always
been an insane animal person. But it's also amazing to
see what these dogs go on to do and how
(15:40):
they actually change people's lives. And to be a part
of that means so much to me.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
And what do you actually do for people that don't
understand the training or working with the dogs inside?
Speaker 3 (15:51):
So we have like a manual that's extremely thick that
kind of details all of the things that these dogs
have to learn in order to become service dogs, and
how we can how to train them. You know, there's
I would have never thought it was so complicated until
I joined the program, and I'm like reading all of
these steps and teach one thing and I'm like, oh
my gosh. But it's amazing, you know, seeing how these
(16:14):
animals learn and how intelligent they are, how sensitive and
how in tune they are with us, and it's just
such a good feeling, you know, working with them and
working hard, and when they finally get something, it's it's amazing.
So they're with us all the time, you know, we
take them everywhere, as you can see, you know, so
they learn how to be calm and public and how
(16:36):
to act appropriately.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
I was about to say, Jamie, for people to come see.
We can hear Gigi.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
And now I think he's kind.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Yeah, yeah, he's settled down now. So also education, Now
you completed your education here at the person, and I
believe you're studying. Would you like to share a little
bit about that.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Yeah. I actually found out a few days ago that
I only have five courses left finish my associate So
I'm super I thought it was I didn't think I
was that far because it does take a long time.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
But congratulations. And the associate for what degree.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
It's going to be social science emphasis, and then for
my bachelor's I'm planning on focusing on criminal justice and sociology.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
So congratulations, that's wonderful, thank you. And how long have
you been taking the course?
Speaker 2 (17:25):
I would say like probably like four years I think,
and five years.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
And the study, no doubt, is part of your regular
How does that look for someone that's on the outside
thinking how did they get an education?
Speaker 4 (17:37):
You know?
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Is it part time? How do you do? How are
you educated from within the prison walls?
Speaker 3 (17:45):
So it's through correspondence. So after you register and a
course I normally take four a time, the school will
send all of the materials I need, so like books,
the syllabus, assignments, everything, and that's from there. You know,
I work on each assignment. You know, when I complete,
I send it in, they reread it, send it back.
(18:08):
You know, my midterms and finals are proctered at the
school building, and you know it's very time consuming. You know,
it's and because of the mail, it does take quite
a while. But you know, it's something that I believe
is very important.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
So preoccupies it helps you in many ways and it
passes the time as well. Absolutely, and working with Gigi
and other pups as well. What else can you share
about yourself and the work or what you do here inside?
Speaker 3 (18:40):
I love to write. I'm a poet and you know,
I actually found out a few months ago that my
first book of poetry is going to be published, so I'm.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Really excited about that.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Wonderful.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
So you know, it's something like when I first started writing.
You know, I was, you know, a kid here and
it was just kind of I didn't have many healthy
coping mechanisms, but that was something that I discovered was
helpful for me processing my.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Emotions and channeling that.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
And you know, when I first started writing, and I
never thought it could be become anything.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
It was just something for me. Yes, And you.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Know, I met a lot of women here who encouraged me,
and you know, my support system outside encouraged me and
was like, you could do something with this. And you know,
I actually have a dear friend who's a poet, and
you know, she's been like my editor, my mentor, you know,
my literary agent. She's been like everything helping me.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
And you know, it.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
It's I'm really excited about it, and you know, because
I never thought it was something that I could actually do.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Well and you and you can and you've done it.
So I'm expecting an autograph to copy. Thank you, I
know l early twenty twenty three will congrats song.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Now, there are a couple of things you mentioned about women,
and again we'll focus on inside here in the prison.
How have you adapted or have you embraced other women
or women helping you to cope here that have been
here possibly longer than you, And can you share a
little bit about that dynamic that it's.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Been like a huge part of my life. You know
the first few years I was in prison, you know,
I was a mess. You know, I was so angry
and lost and desperate, and you know, I.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Had so much guilt.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
I didn't know what to do with and I still
have that. But you know, I'm certainly not like put together,
you know, or anything. But you know, it's been other women,
you know that I've seen, Like I can remember, you know,
in the when I was in the YO which is
where they house you know, young women who are at
the age of eighteen. I would see certain women you
(20:47):
know many of them, you know, you're interviewing or you
have interviewed for your podcast, you know, doing really positive things.
And I kind of saw them and I'm like, they're
so positive and they're so strong and they're aspiring and
I saw that, and I'm like, how do I get there?
How do I become that person? And getting to know
(21:07):
them over the years, and you know, the wisdom they
share with me and the way that they've you know,
empowered me and uplifted me. You know, it's it's been
so important to me.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
So the relationship friendships you have formed and there are
people that have mentored you along the way. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, you.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Know, I'm very grateful for them.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
I mean here, I mean, I think people have like
this idea about like prisons, you know, being filled with
like horrible people, and there are people, you know, we've
all done something horrible, you know, but and I used
to have like a simplistic view of people like and
you know prisons like, oh, like prisons are for bad people,
like those other people who do bad things, you know,
(21:51):
But actually coming to prison and getting to know so
many people, it's like you kind of evolve and you
see that you know, good and bad.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
It's just such a.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
It's not an accurate thing to say that there's good
people and bad people.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
You know, I've met so.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Many people here who have done bad things, but who
are good. And you know, we show up for each other.
You know, the friends that I have here, I mean,
we're like a dysfunctional family, you know, especially you know
the women.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
I work with training service dogs. We have our drama,
we have our issues, but.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Like like any group of women, we do, but we
really show up for each other. And these women have
helped me through really difficult times. And we're community, and
you know I'm I love.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Them, yes, thank you. And speaking of friendships relationships, what
about from the outside or family members or contact, how
does that look from your How is that from your perspective?
Speaker 3 (22:56):
It's been you know, the people in my life. You
know that I have saved mine. You know, I for
so many years, like I hated myself and I carried
so much. And you know my family, you know, I
(23:17):
took so much from them and they still chose to
love me and to forgive me. And there's been so
many friends and people from my community that have stood
by me and for a long time, I didn't understand it,
and I didn't think that I was worthy of it,
and you know, I still don't, but I'm understanding that
(23:37):
the gift of forgiveness and love, it's not about if
you deserve it. It's just kind of the most radical act
that we can do is humans. Yes, and you know,
to be seen and to be told like, you know,
I love you and you know I see you, and
you're good. You're more than this, you know, That's what
(23:59):
keeps me going. That's what gives me hope. You know,
I feel like one day I can be worthy of that.
And you know, I dse where I'm like, why am
I doing this? Why am I trying? I remind myself
that there's people who love me and believe in me,
and I want to prove them that they're right to
do that. You know that they've taken this chance, you know,
(24:22):
and I want to show them that they were right.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
And your dad, if you don't mind me saying, and
I have met him, wonderful gentleman.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
He's amazing.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Yeah, yeah, great support, Yeah, thank you for listeners. Again,
that's Gigi. I think under the table making those noises.
Moving on from that, now you have been through so
much trauma as you've explained prior to coming into the
prison system, and of course adjusting and it's never ending,
(24:54):
no doubt, from the time you're commenced being in here
through to whenever. Do you have any medical hope or
do you do you jam if you don't mind answering,
do you see a therapist here or a counselor or
if you don't mind me asking that, I'll still here.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
For the first few years I was in prison, I
did have a therapist. You know, he like, he's like
one of the most compassionate, you know, amazing people I've
ever met in my life. You know, he worked here
for over twenty years, and you know, he really dedicated
his life to helping us. And you know, I he
(25:36):
helped me tremendously. I mean he's retired, but you know
he was just such a good person and he really
cared about us and showed up for us, and he
helped me tremendously. And you know, now I don't really
have I don't have like a therapist now. I'm just
because like the way things work is like, you know,
(25:57):
we have a lot of psychology staff, but there's so
many people here that they have to meet with and
see that, you know, it's just not feasible for them to,
you know.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Offer therapy regularly.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
But you know, I have a lot of people that
I can go to and that I do go to
all the time.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Like I'm pass like, oh my gosh, you.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Don't and when you get up with the morning, what
goes through your mind, Jamie.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
I'm not a morning person. So we'll take that one back.
I'm not a morning person.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
So, like, you know, my first thought is like, oh,
you know, I need coffee, and I need to take
him to the bathroom, and I need to make sure that,
you know, GG is fed and has everything that he needs.
But you know, after I do all those things, I
kind of just sit for a while and you know,
drink my coffee and I kind of just like think about,
you know, what I have to do for the rest
(26:51):
of the day, and I kind of just take some
time to just I don't meditate, but just I wish
I could, but just kind of sit and think.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Is there a faith, Christianity, spirituality? Is there anything that
you you know, read or do within that realm or
believe in that realm?
Speaker 3 (27:11):
So for most of my life, you know, I was
an atheist, and you know, then it kind of like
became agnostic. But you know, over the last few years,
I've kind of changed and I don't want to label
myself into like one religion. I mean most of like
every week, a group of women and I like we
(27:32):
have a Bible study. And you know, at first, like
when I was invited, I was like, oh, you know,
they were like, oh, we know you love to debate.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
I'm like, all right, you know, like.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
It was like I was like, I'm going to come,
but it's gonna you know, like mainly just to like
challenge them. And but you know, as I over the months,
as I participated, you know, I've learned more about the religion.
I've actually studied it, and you know, I I've come
to embrace it. And for me, it's it's not about
I've always kind of been resistant to religion because I
(28:04):
don't think sometimes it can be judgmental and it can
be a tool to you know, oppress people and guilt people.
But at the same time, it can be a force
for good. And for me, you know, I'm becoming more spiritual.
You know, I believe in the universe and I believe
(28:25):
in goodness. You know, I think that all beings have goodness,
especially humans, and you know, I think we're all a
part of I mean, we're all a part of this
universe and we all have a right to be here.
And you know, for me, that's what that's what my
faith is, you know, believing in the universe, believing in
(28:45):
humanity in life.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Thank you, Jamie. Something I'd like to ask about is
a young person like yourself going through the criminal justice system,
but from a legal perspective, in a court of flaw
or I'm not going to ask how was that experience,
but really what what happened to you throughout that process
(29:13):
at such a young age.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
I feel like, you know, going through like I'm I
entered the system because of something tragic and horrible that
was deeply personal. You know, it wasn't just some random person,
and you know, going through the legal system, it was
(29:40):
never I was kind of told if I wasn't really
able to understand my role in it, what I did,
what I was responding for. You know, I was just
kind of like told, this is what happened. You know,
this is a consequence, you know, and you know you're
kind of divorced from the harm you actually if that
(30:01):
makes sense, yes, like you know, anything, it's kind of
hard to explain.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
But you know, there's.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
When everything is so formalized and it's like, you know,
there's no chance to really sit down and understand what
you did. You know, these things are so horrific and tragic,
and you know, and like in the court system, things
(30:31):
are kind of made. You know, it's hard to explain,
but there's they're viewed. Is like, you know, when you
come in a crime, it's like you've kind of harmed
the state. You know, they don't really explain the ways
that you've harmed people, you know, the things you've taken
from people you know, and you know, and then the
media it tends to be sensationalized. So for years, you know,
(30:56):
I kind of just believe the narrative that I was
this horrible person, you know, and you know, when you're
kind of told that, when you're told, you know you
did something horrible, you know you're horrible, you know, even
though it's not told you explicitly, that's the narrative that
you come to accept. And I believed it for a
long time, and I mean I still have moments where
I do, but you know processing it. You know, it's
(31:21):
been other people that have helped me be like, Okay,
you know, this is what I did, this is what happened.
But today I can be something else. I can be
more than that. Yes, but that piece.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Is often lost, right, thank you. I think it's interesting
you mentioned about the media, because again, the sensationalism is
always key, just you know, that storytelling. How did you
hear had you heard how you would portrayed in the media,
what was the pipeline? How did you hear about the
(31:52):
portrayal of you? And if you don't mind, how were
you deemed or headlined? If you don't if you don't mind,
and we don't want to talk about the crime, but
just didn't really speaking, I mean.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
I today I understand it because you know, when someone's
so young is responsible for such something so horrific, it's
very difficult for people to understand how something like that
could happen. And it's even hard for me to understand,
you know, looking back, you know, because you know, it's
difficult for me to reconcile what I did with the
(32:24):
person that I know myself to be. But you know
that's why, you know, we need to have like a
nuanced view of human nature and the things that cause
these things to happen, you know, all of the factors
that culminate in these things happening. But the media, instead
of you know, being like, okay, well, let's look at
all these other things, these underlying things that were going
(32:44):
on in this person's life, it's easier to just kind
of label people and be like, well, they're bad, they're incorrigible,
that's why this happened, you know, because it's it's it
challenges us. It's not easy to take a look at
ourselves and say, okay, you know, but for the grace
of God. You know, I know what I'm capable of
(33:05):
because I know what I've done, what I've lived, you know,
But I also know that that's not all that I am.
You know, I know that I have good and bad
in me. But it's been my experiences in my life
that has forced me to look at that. But it's
easier for people to just be like, oh, I would
never do that, you know, something like that would never
happen to me.
Speaker 4 (33:26):
You know.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
I was portrayed as you know, kind of like this
like young, you know, super smart, manipulative, like genius, that
I was like super controlling and you know, like this
mastermind when you know, really I was. That wasn't accurate
at all, you know, but I could understand that. I
(33:48):
can understand that perspective because I am kind of smart,
you know, so it's assumed that, like, okay, if you're
very intelligent, you automatically know what you're doing, you know
the cost squintance of your actions. And at the time,
I was pretty smart, but I had no emotional intelligence.
I was completely out of control and I couldn't appreciate
(34:11):
the consequences of my decisions. I was just so stuck
in the moment and stuck in desperation and anger and fear.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Yes, yeah, thank you. So the Jamie growing up as
a little girl, the Jamie prior and you have mentioned
this prior to coming to the prison system, and the
Jamie that's sitting with a beautiful smile opposite me today
because we've had some wonderful discussions and I touched on
(34:42):
that shortly. How would you over those three particular realms,
how would you describe Jamie, I know.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
You know, as a little girl, like I was so
happy and curious and like filled with joy and wonder
and you know then, you know, as I got older.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
I was so cynical and lost and hopeless and angry,
and you know.
Speaker 3 (35:14):
It's I kind of I wish I could say like, oh,
that wasn't me. You know, I'm not that person.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
But I am.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
You know, I'm all of the bad things I've done,
and I'm all of the good things that I've done.
And you know, as ashamed that I am of who
I was, I have to acknowledge that was me. And
but I was also that little girl who saw goodness
and everything. And today, you know, I'm kind of a
(35:45):
combination of both. You know, I have days where I'm
still hurt and angry and you know, fills with regret.
But you know, for me, it's about making the decision
about which one I want to be. You know, I
it's easy to kind of look at my life and
look at the state of the world and look at
(36:07):
the things that I've done and feel hopelessness and powerlessness.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
But that's the easy thing to do.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
You know, It's easy to just lay in bed and
feel sorry for yourself and to look back and be like, oh,
you know I did this. I'm horrible. I mean, look
at all the things. It's very easy to do that.
It's more difficult to be like, Okay, what am I
going to do moving forward? The more difficult thing to
do is to lean in to feelings of wonder, you know,
(36:33):
to see goodness, to choose to see goodness in such
a place, you know, as prison. You know, it's a
miracle that I'm in a prison and I can look
around and say that there's people who care about me,
you know, who love me. You know, these are people
that have been cast aside because of things that they've done. Yes,
(36:55):
but they're just as human as anyone else. You know,
we show up each other and there's beautiful things in
such an ugly place. And you know that's the harder
thing to do, is to kind of look at your
life and say, all right, where's the goodness in it?
You know, how can I create more goodness?
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Thank you, Jamie. When the time comes for you to
be released, have you thought about that?
Speaker 2 (37:20):
I do think about that a lot.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
What does that look like for you?
Speaker 3 (37:25):
I believe that I have In fact, I know that
I have a lifelong obligation in my family because I've
harmed them in so many ways. You know, I've taken
so much from them, yet they've chosen to love me
and to support me and to believe in me.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
And it's very difficult for me to.
Speaker 3 (37:47):
Be here and away from them, only because there's so
many things I can't do for them from in here,
and they deserve so.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
Much and I owe them so much. No, I owe
them debts that can never be repaid.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
And you know, I look forward to the day that
I'll be able to give that back to that when
I'll be able to be there and show them how
they've saved my life, you know, you know how their
love has given me something to live for. And you know,
(38:26):
because of my experiences, like I care deeply about the
legal system and the people in it and the people
who are harmed. And you know, when I get out,
you know, my dream is to work with other people
in prison to advocate for them, you know, especially young
women in the prison system. Yes, that's that's my dream.
You know, whatever capacity I can be in that. I
(38:51):
don't know what my career would look like, but I'm
determined to make it happen.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Yes, thank you. And before we finish up, I have
to share the tale about getting a phone call. I'm
on the other side of the world for our listeners.
I'll just take a step back. So Jamie and I
have known each other for many, many years and it's
been a lovely, lovely friendship and rapport. And there are
times that Jamie will ring me or will ring me,
(39:17):
and I'm waiting for another call sometime, will ring me
or would ring me, and it just and we write
to each other and things like this, keeping contact. And
I remember I recall my husband and I being Brisbane, Australia,
catching up with family on a holiday and I'm sitting
there having a beautiful cup of coffee, lovely cup of
(39:37):
coffee in a restaurant in downtown Brisbane City in Queensland, Australia,
and my phone, of course rings and it's you know,
the Department of Corrections. Will you take this call? And
I'm like, what the dickens is going on here? So Jamie,
would you like to tell them what happened?
Speaker 4 (39:54):
Then?
Speaker 3 (39:54):
Yes, it was, like I can remember, it was like
a stumphener. It was like eight forty five at night.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
And I'm like, let me call key, let me see
how she's doing, Like you know, of course, I mean,
I'm not even thinking like Okay, she's across the world.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
There's a time difference, there's all these things going on
in all I was like hi, you know, and You're like,
oh yeah, and I'm like, oh my god.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
You know, it was so funny.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
It was funny, but it was just wonderful. I'll never
forget that. I keep telling so many people it was
a beautiful moment. And we've had some wonderful calls as well,
you know, And it won't stop. And today is not
the end of it. As you know, we will always
be in each other's lives no matter what. Jamie. Before
we finish anything else you would like to share with our.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Listeners, I'm very grateful for you and for the work
that you're doing.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
I am.
Speaker 3 (40:43):
You know, there's there's so many people whose stories deserve
to be told and to give a fuller picture of
who they are.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
And I believe that.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
Every person, every person deserves a second chance. Every person
deserves to be seen not for the worst more one
of their lives, or for the best, but a fall
three dimensional picture of who they are as.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
A human being.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
And in you doing this, you're giving people a chance
to share their stories, you know, to be who they
are and it really means a lot. And I know
I speak for a lot of other women when I say.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
That, Thank you, Jamie. I'm humbled. I really am. I'm humbled,
and I'm grateful and wearing each other's life for a
long time, yet you're stuck with me vice versa. Well,
thank you, Jamie, and thank you Gigi for the sound
effects in the background. And we're going to finish up,
but again, thank you, Jamie. It's been a pleasure catching
(41:38):
up with you as always.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 5 (41:54):
Thank you for joining us on another episode of Self
Identities Converse with Convicted Women, a Flying Possums production in
association with Nutter Productions. We deeply appreciate the support of
our listeners and the contributions from everyone who has made
this podcast possible. Your engagement and encouragement drive us to
(42:18):
continue these important conversations until next time. Take care,
We'd like to acknowledge for our listeners just upfront that
what you will hear from individual incarcerated women throughout the
episode you may find to be emotionally charged and even disturbing,
So we just want to acknowledge that and make you
aware of that. Furthermore, something that listeners probably don't realize
(00:22):
is that all of our individual conversations with each woman
was recorded inside a maximum security prison, the State Correctional
Institution SCI Munsey in Pennsylvania here in the United States.
So the noise, there's any chatter, anything in the background.
(00:44):
For our listeners just to understand that we actually recorded
inside a prison where the day goes on. The women,
the officers, the staff, they all have their jobs. Just
because we're there, it doesn't stop or everything becomes quiet.
So if you do, as listeners here any background noise,
please understand that is part of being inside a prison.
(01:18):
Hello everyone, and thank you for tuning into our podcast
Self Identities Conversations with Convicted Women. My name is doctor
Catherine Whiteley, and I'm a feminist criminologist. Today I'm visiting
SCI Muncy, a state correctional facility for women in Pennsylvania
(01:39):
here in the United States and today joining me are
too important, I'll say people, Oh.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Maybe he's a person.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Okay, So what I'm going to do is welcome Jamie
and Gigi, who is our guest pop this morning. How
are you, Jamie good?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
How are you?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
I'm great, and it's one wonderful to see you. Take
it is, and we'll let the listeners know that you
have known each other for many years. We have, and
we've had some fun We've had some fun stories to
share with the listeners a little bit later on. But
as I said, we welcome you and Gigi the pups.
So for our listeners that are tuning in, if you
hear some sound effects, just know it's just Gg chewing
(02:21):
his bone in the background. But that's all part of
the course. So Jamie, I'd like to take you back
to your childhood. Would you be able to go as
far as you can think back? What was your childhood
like your upbringing?
Speaker 3 (02:36):
I was definitely blessed to have a pretty wonderful childhood.
I had an older brother and two parents that loved me.
We were very close knit family and I never questioned
I was loved. I was thief and you know, I
(02:58):
was very blessed in that way.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
And when you talk about growing up in the younger years,
what did you love to do or maybe what didn't
you like to do?
Speaker 2 (03:10):
I mean, as a little girl, like I love to explore.
I've always been a.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Crazy animal person, so I mean some of my earliest
memories were like running around in the backyard, like searching
for insects and birds and trying to capture them. And yeah,
my family and I were pretty outdoorsy. We loved a
camp and fish and yes, those were and those were
some of my favorite things to do as a little girl.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
And where were you born?
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Right outside of Allentown in the Lehigh Valley here in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
And school, let's even just go forward a little bit.
School what was that like for you and what did
you like to study or maybe what didn't you like
to study?
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Always say that originally, for the for the most part
in my childhood, I loved school. I've always loved to learn,
and you know, at first, school was like an environment
that I thrived in. You know, I've always been a student,
and you know it just came naturally to me as
a kid.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
So could you share a little bit about that when
you you know later, you know, in early shall we
say you're early teens. What was your life like then?
Speaker 3 (04:24):
You know, I would say, like the first ten years
of my life were pretty idyllic. You know, I felt love, normal, happy,
you know, as a very happy kid. But around the
time that I started entering puberty, things are to change
for me. And I'm sure as you know, you know,
puberty is a very difficult time for adolest and girls.
You know, you have all these surging hormones, and that's
(04:45):
also the time when we start to compare ourselves to
other people and become cognizant of our bodies and everything.
And you know, I was born with a facial disfigurement,
and you know, originally, growing up it I never really
thought about it and it really.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Wasn't something that impacted my life.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
But you know, as I entered puberty, it was something
that started to really bother me.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
I started to be.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Bullied by some of my peers, and my self esteem
just kind of plummeted.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
How did you work through that?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
I didn't really work through it. I kind of.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Eventually I kind of learned to overcompensate, you know. I
kind of figured, like, well, if I can't be pretty.
I can be smart, and I can be nice, and
I can be all of these other things. But you know,
it's especially in our culture, you know, we place so
much on beauty and like the stereotypical you know, ideal
(05:48):
of like what beauty is, you know, especially for young women.
And it was really difficult for me, you know, being
on social media and seeing what I thought I should
look like, what I thought I should be, and I
you know, I carried a deep sense of hurt and
worthlessness and I didn't I didn't really know how to
(06:09):
process it. And it wasn't something that we really talked
about in my family.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
You know.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
They my parents loved me, and you know, you know,
as a little girl, like they tried to, you know,
take me to doctors to have surgeries to correct it,
and you know, all of that was done out of
love and out of a desire to protect me, you know,
from bullying, from discrimination. But we never really had a
conversation about, you know, what it meant for me. I know,
(06:36):
I think they just they didn't want me to feel
defined by it. But enter in puberty, you know, feeling
all of these emotions and seeing all these things I
did feel defined by it, and I struggled with it.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
And when you shared what you just shared, you struggled
with that. Did you seek or did your family help
you to seek some form of therapy? And I don't
want a pinpoint. Therapy is be an end all here.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
But so, I mean, I can remember I was eleven
and I started struggling with depression. And prior, you know,
I was always, you know, a great student. I was
very involved in sports and you know, extracurricular activities. But suddenly,
like I just started to withdraw and I didn't want to.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
I kind of quit everything.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
I can remember, like I would fake having like migrain
headaches so I didn't have.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
To go to school.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
And at school I would go to the nurse's office
and say, oh, I have a headache and lay there
and wait.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Until someone could come pick me up.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
And and my parents, like they noticed the change in me,
so they started taking me to see a therapist. But
you know, they did all the right things, but at
the time, I didn't really have an ability to like
process my emotions or really understand what it was that
was causing me so much pain, and I didn't take
(07:59):
advantage of it. It really I didn't open up the
way I needed to. I didn't have the ability to
kind of understand or process what I was going through.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Thank you, Thank you for sharing Jamie. From that experience,
is anything that you could discuss or share with our
listeners if they are young or younger and going through
something similar, what would you advice or what would you
share with them, you know, just to help them.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
You know I can remember, I mean, I care a
lot about young people in the justice system, you know, obviously,
because I came to prison at such a young age,
and you know, I can remember what it was like
being so young and everything felt like a crisis. You know,
I can remember, you know how much I hated myself
(08:52):
and how much I felt like I wasn't good enough,
And I remember how desperate I was for attention, for validation,
and how I sought it out in all the wrong ways.
And I know how devastating that can be personally. And
it's hard to tell someone because I know I didn't
(09:14):
believe it. But you know, young women are fine as
they are. You know, I wish I would have understood
that and known I don't have to seek out anyone
else to make me a whole person. But I think
that finding ways to build young women's self esteem is
really important because having those self esteem is kind I know,
(09:35):
is what put me on the trajectory that I was
on and why I've heard so many people as a result,
And I hope that you know nothing similar happens. But
you know, young women continue to come to prison. I
see it every day here, and I think that that's
a significant piece of it.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Thank you, Jamie. How old will you when you first incarcerated?
And then how old are you today?
Speaker 3 (10:05):
I was first in corresorated a few weeks after my
fourteenth birthday and today I'm twenty three, twenty three.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
And going back to that time at the age of fourteen, Now,
did you go to a county jail first, or could
you explain a little bit about if you don't mind,
I know a little bit about that experience and feeling
or at the end of the day, understanding that then
you're going to be sent to a state prison, if
(10:32):
you wouldn't mind sharing that from a young age.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
So in Pennsylvania, certain crimes, you know, are categorized as
adult crimes and the child is automatically charged an adult
court and ultimately the burden is placed on the defendant
to prove that they should be desertified and said back
to juvenour court.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
And you know, it's a very difficult burden to prove,
you know.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
So obviously my crime was categorized as an adult crime
and I was sent to a county jail and it.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Was really traumatic. I don't there's a lot about it.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
I can't remember, you know, because there are certain moments
that I remember. But that year I was in county
jail is kind of just like a blur.
Speaker 4 (11:17):
You know.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
I spent most of my time, you know, in a cell,
and you know, I really kind of disintegrate.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
It, right, And then moving forward comes the time that
you incarcerated in a state prison here in Pennsylvania. When
you first arrived here, if you can reflect back, who
was Jamie then or what was going through Jamie's mind?
If you can, I was a mess.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
You know.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
I had all of this guilt and self hatred and
regret and anger that I never was able to process,
you know, losing my mom, coming to prison and knowing
I was responsible for so much harm. I didn't have
a way to process it or understand it. And I
(12:10):
wasn't in a good place. You know, I was very
self destructive, and you know, it was just I was
really lost.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Thank you, And looking back at that time, is a
state prison what you perceived it to be? Because I
often hear women say, well, you know, media sensationalizes what
a prison looks like for women. How have you emerged,
how have you grown? What have you seen or done
(12:42):
since arriving here? What has it been like for you?
Speaker 3 (12:45):
If you don't, I mean I was terrified, you know,
coming to Steep prison because you know, watching oranges and
new Blacks, you know, all these you know.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Things in the media.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
I had this idea of what prison was, but it's
definitely not what you would think. And you know, over
the you know, over the years, it's hard for me
to even talk about because there's just been so much
like I've just been so blessed. You know, this the
(13:14):
person that I'm becoming, I'm starting to actually like. And
that's because of all of the people on the outside
who've loved me, who've stood by me, and all the
opportunities that I've been given here. You know, I remember
the day I came in, you know, I just turned fifteen,
and you know, I was in missions, and I was
so scared and I was so emotional.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
And there was this.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Little black lab puppy that some of the other handlers
had and they let him see me, and you know,
he licked my face, and you know, that was the
first moment that I was like, oh, you know, because
for the for the year prior, I was so isolated
and so alone, and like seeing that.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
It was like the first ray of hope I felt.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
And you know, that was the initial moment that made
me be like, this is something I can do.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Yes. And when you speak about admissions and I know
this and things we can't share to the public, But
what was what did that process involve? So you're fifteen,
you're entering the prison system, a state prison. What was
the admissions process and what was it like for you?
Speaker 3 (14:20):
It was honestly a lot better than that in county jail.
You know, you're kind of sitting in a self like
all day waiting to be processed into the system. But here,
you know, it's kind of like a trailer that's not
terrifying looking. It's kind of it's decorated inside, and it's
you know, it's actually not terrifying, and you know, you know,
(14:43):
they take your picture, they take information about you and
enter it into the system. And it wasn't as long,
you know, but I mean I didn't know what to expect,
so I was obviously really scared and worried, right.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
And then even moving a little bit forward from there,
could you discuss now the Jamie that's sitting opposite me,
what is it that you do daily? What is who
is Jamie? And what is her life like today?
Speaker 2 (15:12):
I mean, right now, my life is like run by,
you know, for a legged creature. But that's I love it. It's
totally fine.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
So I'm a part of a program where we help
raise and train service dogs and you know, it's a
wonderful thing. And you know, selfishly, I love having and
I love having a puppy. Like I said, I've always
been an insane animal person. But it's also amazing to
see what these dogs go on to do and how
(15:40):
they actually change people's lives. And to be a part
of that means so much to me.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
And what do you actually do for people that don't
understand the training or working with the dogs inside?
Speaker 3 (15:51):
So we have like a manual that's extremely thick that
kind of details all of the things that these dogs
have to learn in order to become service dogs, and
how we can how to train them. You know, there's
I would have never thought it was so complicated until
I joined the program, and I'm like reading all of
these steps and teach one thing and I'm like, oh
my gosh. But it's amazing, you know, seeing how these
(16:14):
animals learn and how intelligent they are, how sensitive and
how in tune they are with us, and it's just
such a good feeling, you know, working with them and
working hard, and when they finally get something, it's it's amazing.
So they're with us all the time, you know, we
take them everywhere, as you can see, you know, so
they learn how to be calm and public and how
(16:36):
to act appropriately.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
I was about to say, Jamie, for people to come see.
We can hear Gigi.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
And now I think he's kind.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Yeah, yeah, he's settled down now. So also education, Now
you completed your education here at the person, and I
believe you're studying. Would you like to share a little
bit about that.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Yeah. I actually found out a few days ago that
I only have five courses left finish my associate So
I'm super I thought it was I didn't think I
was that far because it does take a long time.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
But congratulations. And the associate for what degree.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
It's going to be social science emphasis, and then for
my bachelor's I'm planning on focusing on criminal justice and sociology.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
So congratulations, that's wonderful, thank you. And how long have
you been taking the course?
Speaker 2 (17:25):
I would say like probably like four years I think,
and five years.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
And the study, no doubt, is part of your regular
How does that look for someone that's on the outside
thinking how did they get an education?
Speaker 4 (17:37):
You know?
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Is it part time? How do you do? How are
you educated from within the prison walls?
Speaker 3 (17:45):
So it's through correspondence. So after you register and a
course I normally take four a time, the school will
send all of the materials I need, so like books,
the syllabus, assignments, everything, and that's from there. You know,
I work on each assignment. You know, when I complete,
I send it in, they reread it, send it back.
(18:08):
You know, my midterms and finals are proctered at the
school building, and you know it's very time consuming. You know,
it's and because of the mail, it does take quite
a while. But you know, it's something that I believe
is very important.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
So preoccupies it helps you in many ways and it
passes the time as well. Absolutely, and working with Gigi
and other pups as well. What else can you share
about yourself and the work or what you do here inside?
Speaker 3 (18:40):
I love to write. I'm a poet and you know,
I actually found out a few months ago that my
first book of poetry is going to be published, so I'm.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Really excited about that.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Wonderful.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
So you know, it's something like when I first started writing.
You know, I was, you know, a kid here and
it was just kind of I didn't have many healthy
coping mechanisms, but that was something that I discovered was
helpful for me processing my.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Emotions and channeling that.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
And you know, when I first started writing, and I
never thought it could be become anything.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
It was just something for me. Yes, And you.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Know, I met a lot of women here who encouraged me,
and you know, my support system outside encouraged me and
was like, you could do something with this. And you know,
I actually have a dear friend who's a poet, and
you know, she's been like my editor, my mentor, you know,
my literary agent. She's been like everything helping me.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
And you know, it.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
It's I'm really excited about it, and you know, because
I never thought it was something that I could actually do.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Well and you and you can and you've done it.
So I'm expecting an autograph to copy. Thank you, I
know l early twenty twenty three will congrats song.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Now, there are a couple of things you mentioned about women,
and again we'll focus on inside here in the prison.
How have you adapted or have you embraced other women
or women helping you to cope here that have been
here possibly longer than you, And can you share a
little bit about that dynamic that it's.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Been like a huge part of my life. You know
the first few years I was in prison, you know,
I was a mess. You know, I was so angry
and lost and desperate, and you know, I.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Had so much guilt.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
I didn't know what to do with and I still
have that. But you know, I'm certainly not like put together,
you know, or anything. But you know, it's been other women,
you know that I've seen, Like I can remember, you know,
in the when I was in the YO which is
where they house you know, young women who are at
the age of eighteen. I would see certain women you
(20:47):
know many of them, you know, you're interviewing or you
have interviewed for your podcast, you know, doing really positive things.
And I kind of saw them and I'm like, they're
so positive and they're so strong and they're aspiring and
I saw that, and I'm like, how do I get there?
How do I become that person? And getting to know
(21:07):
them over the years, and you know, the wisdom they
share with me and the way that they've you know,
empowered me and uplifted me. You know, it's it's been
so important to me.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
So the relationship friendships you have formed and there are
people that have mentored you along the way. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, you.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Know, I'm very grateful for them.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
I mean here, I mean, I think people have like
this idea about like prisons, you know, being filled with
like horrible people, and there are people, you know, we've
all done something horrible, you know, but and I used
to have like a simplistic view of people like and
you know prisons like, oh, like prisons are for bad people,
like those other people who do bad things, you know,
(21:51):
But actually coming to prison and getting to know so
many people, it's like you kind of evolve and you
see that you know, good and bad.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
It's just such a.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
It's not an accurate thing to say that there's good
people and bad people.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
You know, I've met so.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Many people here who have done bad things, but who
are good. And you know, we show up for each other.
You know, the friends that I have here, I mean,
we're like a dysfunctional family, you know, especially you know
the women.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
I work with training service dogs. We have our drama,
we have our issues, but.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Like like any group of women, we do, but we
really show up for each other. And these women have
helped me through really difficult times. And we're community, and
you know I'm I love.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Them, yes, thank you. And speaking of friendships relationships, what
about from the outside or family members or contact, how
does that look from your How is that from your perspective?
Speaker 3 (22:56):
It's been you know, the people in my life. You
know that I have saved mine. You know, I for
so many years, like I hated myself and I carried
so much. And you know my family, you know, I
(23:17):
took so much from them and they still chose to
love me and to forgive me. And there's been so
many friends and people from my community that have stood
by me and for a long time, I didn't understand it,
and I didn't think that I was worthy of it,
and you know, I still don't, but I'm understanding that
(23:37):
the gift of forgiveness and love, it's not about if
you deserve it. It's just kind of the most radical act
that we can do is humans. Yes, and you know,
to be seen and to be told like, you know,
I love you and you know I see you, and
you're good. You're more than this, you know, That's what
(23:59):
keeps me going. That's what gives me hope. You know,
I feel like one day I can be worthy of that.
And you know, I dse where I'm like, why am
I doing this? Why am I trying? I remind myself
that there's people who love me and believe in me,
and I want to prove them that they're right to
do that. You know that they've taken this chance, you know,
(24:22):
and I want to show them that they were right.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
And your dad, if you don't mind me saying, and
I have met him, wonderful gentleman.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
He's amazing.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Yeah, yeah, great support, Yeah, thank you for listeners. Again,
that's Gigi. I think under the table making those noises.
Moving on from that, now you have been through so
much trauma as you've explained prior to coming into the
prison system, and of course adjusting and it's never ending,
(24:54):
no doubt, from the time you're commenced being in here
through to whenever. Do you have any medical hope or
do you do you jam if you don't mind answering,
do you see a therapist here or a counselor or
if you don't mind me asking that, I'll still here.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
For the first few years I was in prison, I
did have a therapist. You know, he like, he's like
one of the most compassionate, you know, amazing people I've
ever met in my life. You know, he worked here
for over twenty years, and you know, he really dedicated
his life to helping us. And you know, I he
(25:36):
helped me tremendously. I mean he's retired, but you know
he was just such a good person and he really
cared about us and showed up for us, and he
helped me tremendously. And you know, now I don't really
have I don't have like a therapist now. I'm just
because like the way things work is like, you know,
(25:57):
we have a lot of psychology staff, but there's so
many people here that they have to meet with and
see that, you know, it's just not feasible for them to,
you know.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Offer therapy regularly.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
But you know, I have a lot of people that
I can go to and that I do go to
all the time.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Like I'm pass like, oh my gosh, you.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Don't and when you get up with the morning, what
goes through your mind, Jamie.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
I'm not a morning person. So we'll take that one back.
I'm not a morning person.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
So, like, you know, my first thought is like, oh,
you know, I need coffee, and I need to take
him to the bathroom, and I need to make sure that,
you know, GG is fed and has everything that he needs.
But you know, after I do all those things, I
kind of just sit for a while and you know,
drink my coffee and I kind of just like think about,
you know, what I have to do for the rest
(26:51):
of the day, and I kind of just take some
time to just I don't meditate, but just I wish
I could, but just kind of sit and think.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Is there a faith, Christianity, spirituality? Is there anything that
you you know, read or do within that realm or
believe in that realm?
Speaker 3 (27:11):
So for most of my life, you know, I was
an atheist, and you know, then it kind of like
became agnostic. But you know, over the last few years,
I've kind of changed and I don't want to label
myself into like one religion. I mean most of like
every week, a group of women and I like we
(27:32):
have a Bible study. And you know, at first, like
when I was invited, I was like, oh, you know,
they were like, oh, we know you love to debate.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
I'm like, all right, you know, like.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
It was like I was like, I'm going to come,
but it's gonna you know, like mainly just to like
challenge them. And but you know, as I over the months,
as I participated, you know, I've learned more about the religion.
I've actually studied it, and you know, I I've come
to embrace it. And for me, it's it's not about
I've always kind of been resistant to religion because I
(28:04):
don't think sometimes it can be judgmental and it can
be a tool to you know, oppress people and guilt people.
But at the same time, it can be a force
for good. And for me, you know, I'm becoming more spiritual.
You know, I believe in the universe and I believe
(28:25):
in goodness. You know, I think that all beings have goodness,
especially humans, and you know, I think we're all a
part of I mean, we're all a part of this
universe and we all have a right to be here.
And you know, for me, that's what that's what my
faith is, you know, believing in the universe, believing in
(28:45):
humanity in life.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Thank you, Jamie. Something I'd like to ask about is
a young person like yourself going through the criminal justice system,
but from a legal perspective, in a court of flaw
or I'm not going to ask how was that experience,
but really what what happened to you throughout that process
(29:13):
at such a young age.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
I feel like, you know, going through like I'm I
entered the system because of something tragic and horrible that
was deeply personal. You know, it wasn't just some random person,
and you know, going through the legal system, it was
(29:40):
never I was kind of told if I wasn't really
able to understand my role in it, what I did,
what I was responding for. You know, I was just
kind of like told, this is what happened. You know,
this is a consequence, you know, and you know you're
kind of divorced from the harm you actually if that
(30:01):
makes sense, yes, like you know, anything, it's kind of
hard to explain.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
But you know, there's.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
When everything is so formalized and it's like, you know,
there's no chance to really sit down and understand what
you did. You know, these things are so horrific and tragic,
and you know, and like in the court system, things
(30:31):
are kind of made. You know, it's hard to explain,
but there's they're viewed. Is like, you know, when you
come in a crime, it's like you've kind of harmed
the state. You know, they don't really explain the ways
that you've harmed people, you know, the things you've taken
from people you know, and you know, and then the
media it tends to be sensationalized. So for years, you know,
(30:56):
I kind of just believe the narrative that I was
this horrible person, you know, and you know, when you're
kind of told that, when you're told, you know you
did something horrible, you know you're horrible, you know, even
though it's not told you explicitly, that's the narrative that
you come to accept. And I believed it for a
long time, and I mean I still have moments where
I do, but you know processing it. You know, it's
(31:21):
been other people that have helped me be like, Okay,
you know, this is what I did, this is what happened.
But today I can be something else. I can be
more than that. Yes, but that piece.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Is often lost, right, thank you. I think it's interesting
you mentioned about the media, because again, the sensationalism is
always key, just you know, that storytelling. How did you
hear had you heard how you would portrayed in the media,
what was the pipeline? How did you hear about the
(31:52):
portrayal of you? And if you don't mind, how were
you deemed or headlined? If you don't if you don't mind,
and we don't want to talk about the crime, but
just didn't really speaking, I mean.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
I today I understand it because you know, when someone's
so young is responsible for such something so horrific, it's
very difficult for people to understand how something like that
could happen. And it's even hard for me to understand,
you know, looking back, you know, because you know, it's
difficult for me to reconcile what I did with the
(32:24):
person that I know myself to be. But you know
that's why, you know, we need to have like a
nuanced view of human nature and the things that cause
these things to happen, you know, all of the factors
that culminate in these things happening. But the media, instead
of you know, being like, okay, well, let's look at
all these other things, these underlying things that were going
(32:44):
on in this person's life, it's easier to just kind
of label people and be like, well, they're bad, they're incorrigible,
that's why this happened, you know, because it's it's it
challenges us. It's not easy to take a look at
ourselves and say, okay, you know, but for the grace
of God. You know, I know what I'm capable of
(33:05):
because I know what I've done, what I've lived, you know,
But I also know that that's not all that I am.
You know, I know that I have good and bad
in me. But it's been my experiences in my life
that has forced me to look at that. But it's
easier for people to just be like, oh, I would
never do that, you know, something like that would never
happen to me.
Speaker 4 (33:26):
You know.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
I was portrayed as you know, kind of like this
like young, you know, super smart, manipulative, like genius, that
I was like super controlling and you know, like this
mastermind when you know, really I was. That wasn't accurate
at all, you know, but I could understand that. I
(33:48):
can understand that perspective because I am kind of smart,
you know, so it's assumed that, like, okay, if you're
very intelligent, you automatically know what you're doing, you know
the cost squintance of your actions. And at the time,
I was pretty smart, but I had no emotional intelligence.
I was completely out of control and I couldn't appreciate
(34:11):
the consequences of my decisions. I was just so stuck
in the moment and stuck in desperation and anger and fear.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Yes, yeah, thank you. So the Jamie growing up as
a little girl, the Jamie prior and you have mentioned
this prior to coming to the prison system, and the
Jamie that's sitting with a beautiful smile opposite me today
because we've had some wonderful discussions and I touched on
(34:42):
that shortly. How would you over those three particular realms,
how would you describe Jamie, I know.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
You know, as a little girl, like I was so
happy and curious and like filled with joy and wonder
and you know then, you know, as I got older.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
I was so cynical and lost and hopeless and angry,
and you know.
Speaker 3 (35:14):
It's I kind of I wish I could say like, oh,
that wasn't me. You know, I'm not that person.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
But I am.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
You know, I'm all of the bad things I've done,
and I'm all of the good things that I've done.
And you know, as ashamed that I am of who
I was, I have to acknowledge that was me. And
but I was also that little girl who saw goodness
and everything. And today, you know, I'm kind of a
(35:45):
combination of both. You know, I have days where I'm
still hurt and angry and you know, fills with regret.
But you know, for me, it's about making the decision
about which one I want to be. You know, I
it's easy to kind of look at my life and
look at the state of the world and look at
(36:07):
the things that I've done and feel hopelessness and powerlessness.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
But that's the easy thing to do.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
You know, It's easy to just lay in bed and
feel sorry for yourself and to look back and be like, oh,
you know I did this. I'm horrible. I mean, look
at all the things. It's very easy to do that.
It's more difficult to be like, Okay, what am I
going to do moving forward? The more difficult thing to
do is to lean in to feelings of wonder, you know,
(36:33):
to see goodness, to choose to see goodness in such
a place, you know, as prison. You know, it's a
miracle that I'm in a prison and I can look
around and say that there's people who care about me,
you know, who love me. You know, these are people
that have been cast aside because of things that they've done. Yes,
(36:55):
but they're just as human as anyone else. You know,
we show up each other and there's beautiful things in
such an ugly place. And you know that's the harder
thing to do, is to kind of look at your
life and say, all right, where's the goodness in it?
You know, how can I create more goodness?
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Thank you, Jamie. When the time comes for you to
be released, have you thought about that?
Speaker 2 (37:20):
I do think about that a lot.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
What does that look like for you?
Speaker 3 (37:25):
I believe that I have In fact, I know that
I have a lifelong obligation in my family because I've
harmed them in so many ways. You know, I've taken
so much from them, yet they've chosen to love me
and to support me and to believe in me.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
And it's very difficult for me to.
Speaker 3 (37:47):
Be here and away from them, only because there's so
many things I can't do for them from in here,
and they deserve so.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
Much and I owe them so much. No, I owe
them debts that can never be repaid.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
And you know, I look forward to the day that
I'll be able to give that back to that when
I'll be able to be there and show them how
they've saved my life, you know, you know how their
love has given me something to live for. And you know,
(38:26):
because of my experiences, like I care deeply about the
legal system and the people in it and the people
who are harmed. And you know, when I get out,
you know, my dream is to work with other people
in prison to advocate for them, you know, especially young
women in the prison system. Yes, that's that's my dream.
You know, whatever capacity I can be in that. I
(38:51):
don't know what my career would look like, but I'm
determined to make it happen.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Yes, thank you. And before we finish up, I have
to share the tale about getting a phone call. I'm
on the other side of the world for our listeners.
I'll just take a step back. So Jamie and I
have known each other for many, many years and it's
been a lovely, lovely friendship and rapport. And there are
times that Jamie will ring me or will ring me,
(39:17):
and I'm waiting for another call sometime, will ring me
or would ring me, and it just and we write
to each other and things like this, keeping contact. And
I remember I recall my husband and I being Brisbane, Australia,
catching up with family on a holiday and I'm sitting
there having a beautiful cup of coffee, lovely cup of
(39:37):
coffee in a restaurant in downtown Brisbane City in Queensland, Australia,
and my phone, of course rings and it's you know,
the Department of Corrections. Will you take this call? And
I'm like, what the dickens is going on here? So Jamie,
would you like to tell them what happened?
Speaker 4 (39:54):
Then?
Speaker 3 (39:54):
Yes, it was, like I can remember, it was like
a stumphener. It was like eight forty five at night.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
And I'm like, let me call key, let me see
how she's doing, Like you know, of course, I mean,
I'm not even thinking like Okay, she's across the world.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
There's a time difference, there's all these things going on
in all I was like hi, you know, and You're like,
oh yeah, and I'm like, oh my god.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
You know, it was so funny.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
It was funny, but it was just wonderful. I'll never
forget that. I keep telling so many people it was
a beautiful moment. And we've had some wonderful calls as well,
you know, And it won't stop. And today is not
the end of it. As you know, we will always
be in each other's lives no matter what. Jamie. Before
we finish anything else you would like to share with our.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Listeners, I'm very grateful for you and for the work
that you're doing.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
I am.
Speaker 3 (40:43):
You know, there's there's so many people whose stories deserve
to be told and to give a fuller picture of
who they are.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
And I believe that.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
Every person, every person deserves a second chance. Every person
deserves to be seen not for the worst more one
of their lives, or for the best, but a fall
three dimensional picture of who they are as.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
A human being.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
And in you doing this, you're giving people a chance
to share their stories, you know, to be who they
are and it really means a lot. And I know
I speak for a lot of other women when I say.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
That, Thank you, Jamie. I'm humbled. I really am. I'm humbled,
and I'm grateful and wearing each other's life for a
long time, yet you're stuck with me vice versa. Well,
thank you, Jamie, and thank you Gigi for the sound
effects in the background. And we're going to finish up,
but again, thank you, Jamie. It's been a pleasure catching
(41:38):
up with you as always.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 5 (41:54):
Thank you for joining us on another episode of Self
Identities Converse with Convicted Women, a Flying Possums production in
association with Nutter Productions. We deeply appreciate the support of
our listeners and the contributions from everyone who has made
this podcast possible. Your engagement and encouragement drive us to
(42:18):
continue these important conversations until next time. Take care,
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