Jessica

Jessica was incarcerated at age 16 and has served approximately 25 years of incarceration. She was originally to serve a life without parole sentence, however, was resentenced as a juvenile and is now serving a 35 year to life at SCI Muncy.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
We'd like to acknowledge for our listenersjust upfront that what you will hear from
individual incarcerated women throughout the episode youmay find to be emotionally charged and even
disturbing. So we just want toacknowledge that and make you aware of that.
Furthermore, something that listeners probably don'trealize is that all of our individual

(00:25):
conversations with each woman was recorded insidea maximum security prison, the State Correctional
Institution SCI Munsey in Pennsylvania here inthe United States. So the noise,
there's any chatter, anything in thebackground. For our listeners just to understand
that we actually recorded inside a prisonwhere the day goes on. The women,

(00:51):
the officers, the staff, theyall have their jobs. Just because
we're there, it doesn't stop.Well, everything becomes quiet. So if
you do, as listeners here inbackground noise, please understand that is part
of being inside a prison. Thankyou for listening to our podcast, Self

(01:19):
Identities Conversations with Convicted Women. Myname is doctor Catherine Whiteley. I'm a
feminist criminologist and I'm visiting today theState Correctional Institution SCI Muncy. It's a
state prison in Pennsylvania for women joiningme today is Jessica. Hi Jessica,

(01:40):
Hello, great to see you.Good to see you too. It is
it is now. I'm going tosay we've known each other for quite a
few years, haven't we. Yes, yes, yeah, we've had a
little journey to a decade. Ithink a decade absolutely since we first met.
I can't believe it. Time flies, it does, it does.
So, Jessica, would you liketo share with the listener the length of
time you've been here? How oldwere you when you first came? So?

(02:04):
I was sixteen years old when Iwas incarcerated, just shortly after my
sixteenth birthday. I'm in year twentyfive of my incarceration. I was initially
serving a life without parole sentence.I was resentenced because of being a juvenile,
and I'm now serving a thirty fiveyear to life sentence. Thirty five
years to life, thank you.So we're going to go back a little

(02:29):
bit because people are always curious andthey say to me, well, when
you meet these women and I saythis, they'll say, what does she
like? Or what is that womanlike? Or and so could you just
share a little bit about your upbringingand where you were born? And sure,
sure, I was born in asmall town in central Pennsylvania where nothing
ever happens. It's you know,everybody knows everybody. I was raised by

(02:53):
my grandparents. My mother was inand out of my life, you know,
more out than in. I wentto a private Catholic school for K
through AIDS, and then I wentto public high school until the time of
my wrist. My home life wastypical. I thought I thought it was

(03:20):
typical because I didn't know anything different. But I did realize quite young that
my family was a little different thanother families, you know, because going
to you know, a private Catholicschool where it's mainly prominent, you know,
people who have money. I didn'tcome from money. I grew up
on a farm, you know.Of course, my grandparents were my parents

(03:46):
as far as I knew for awhile, and so it was just I
thought it was good, you know, my upbringing was good until I started
realizing all these things that weren't typicalor you know, normal, Right,
Jessica, Just on that note,and again you can refuse saying, no,

(04:09):
what wasn't typical? What are youable to share just briefly, something
about that you realized wasn't okay?So all of my classmates came from a
two parent home. It was theirmother and their father. There weren't any
really single parents or other children beingraised by their grandparents. So that was

(04:30):
one thing that made me stand out. Also, as I said, they
had money, we did not.You know, I grew up on a
farm where we raised our own meat, We grew our own crops, you
know. The food we ate wasthe food we grew. So yeah,
that's kind of what initially was wasthe just difference just where you se situated.

(05:00):
I wanted to ask what about goingto school and that did you enjoy
school? No? I hated school? Did you? I hated it?
Well, I was bored. Iwas very bored. So that boredom led
to being a bit of a classclown, right uh huh, and you
know, being a little bit disruptive, you know, but it I thought

(05:23):
it was all in good fun,you know, but it was because I
was really bored with the with theclass work. And when you reflect back,
how would you describe that young thatyoung girl prior to coming to the
prison system. I would say,in my early childhood very you know,
care free. Have you go luckylike I didn't? You know, there

(05:48):
was everything was good, you know, and then came the day that you
arrived at MNS. Would you liketo take us through and being someone so
young, could you just touch onwhat was going through your mind when you
actually had to go through the legalsystem at such a young age. We

(06:10):
don't talk about names and places assuch, but just to share with listeners,
what did you experience at such ayoung age going through the criminal justice
system here in the United States?Right? So, for me, the
only thing I had known up tothe point of my arrest was what I
saw on TV. I had nobodyin my family who had ever been incarcerated,

(06:32):
so I was very naive to thewhole system. So it was quite
a shock. It was definitely ashock. And yeah, what was it
like? May I ask when youagain we won't talk places and things like
this, but when you were apprehendedor what did you think? As you

(06:55):
say, well, what did youthink was going to be in front of
you once you were in car,you know that, knowing that you were
going to be sent Well, youwere sentenced, and then you know,
can you reflect upon possibly all thoseyears ago, what was going through your
mind knowing, Oh my gosh,I'm not going to be, you know,
incarcerated in an adult you know,female prison. Sure, so I

(07:16):
think initially it doesn't hit you.You know, it's not you know,
it's they say, okay, you'reyou're going to serve the rest of your
life in prison. But that's notwhat you think. You know, that
doesn't hit you for a good I'dsay at least five maybe ten years into
your incarceration. Yes, it's it'sreal. Really. So when I first

(07:41):
got incarcerated, I was not Iwas very young, of course, and
I was still you know, inthat teenage mindset. So I got into
a lot of trouble when I firstgot incarcerated because, you know, I
just I'm going to do what Iwant to do. I already know everything,
you know, and nobody can tellme anything. I'm just going to

(08:03):
do what I want to do andthat's going to be that. And it
took quite a while to then acceptthat, you know, this this is
my life, you know, thisis where I will be, and I
need to make that something. Ihave to turn that into some semblance of
a life, even if it isin prison. Right and now, moving

(08:26):
forward, what did you do?Because here we sit today, talking about
Yeah, what did you do?So I initially, you know, I
got my GED because when I gothere, that was the only option for
me. There was no secondary educationdiploma or none of that. It was
get your GED or you know,just stay going to school until you're twenty

(08:48):
one, I think it was atthat time. It's much different now.
So I did that. I gotmy GED. They made me a tutor
in the school, so I washelping other people get their GED. Then
I tried to take advantage of asmany educational opportunities as I could, even
though those were limited for me becauseof my sentence. I tried to,

(09:09):
you know, do what I couldto make my way into those. So
every vocational program that they offer hereI have done, and I ended up
being a teacher's assistant in most ofthose wonderful I also took some college classes,
which for me at the time,because of my life sentence, I
could. I didn't qualify for thewhat other inmates would qualify. So if

(09:37):
you did not have a life sentence, you would pay say fifty dollars per
semester to attend your college courses,where I had to pay the full amount.
So I did get a Certificate inBusiness Management. Through that program,
I completed my paralegal certification course.I'm also a CPS now. I've been

(09:58):
a CPS now for eleven years.Could you explain what is a c sure.
A CPS is a certified Peer supportspecialist and what it is is we
try to help our peers through ourown lived experience and helping them to realize
that they probably have the answers insidethey just make need a little help getting
it out right, right? Andcould you give an example, like when

(10:20):
you say a CPS, when youmentioned about helping out this, what's something
that What's something that you notice witheveryone that you are mentor mentoring and so
forth? What is something you noticethat you're helping or making a difference.
Possibly that's a hard one. Imean, I don't know. I just

(10:41):
it's really just the satisfaction of knowingthat they really have all the answers that
they need. It's just help themget there, you know. Because all
the people that you deal with asa CPS do have mental health issues.
That's like the prerequisite, Like youhave to have some sort of mental health

(11:03):
issue that you have overcome yourself,right, right? And what about working
with younger, the younger women orthe younger females that come through. Have
you had much interaction over the yearsbecause you were so young when you were
incarcerated. I have, and letme tell you, it's like it's a
whole different type of person. It'slike the generation that I come from and

(11:30):
the generation that's coming in now,it's like wow, And what does that
wow mean? I think I've gotan idea, but what does that wow?
If you could tell the listeners,the wow is like the ideas and
thoughts and the things that are importantto them, It's like, wow,

(11:50):
I never like that didn't even existwhen I was out there. You know,
social media wasn't a thing. I'venever held a cell phone, right,
So these things that are important tothem, just to me seems so
unimportant or irrelevant. And again justrepeating for the listeners, you've been incarcerated

(12:11):
for how many years? I'm inmy twenty fifth year. Twenty fifth year?
Yeah, my goodness. And wouldyou like to share so what you
know? People always want to know, Well, what do you do during
the day and what makes you happyin prison? What do you do?
So my job is really fulfilling.Yes, and right now I'm working in
an area of the channel that Iwould say is the most difficult. I'm

(12:33):
in the RHL, which to mostpeople would be referred to as the whole.
Could you explain a little bit whatis RHU stand for? Yes,
it is the restricted housing unit.So for anyone who gets in trouble and
receives disciplinary infraction and they get daysaway from general population, that's where they
would be housed. Right, Andthis is what you're working. Yes,

(12:56):
these are the people that I'm currentlyworking with. Now I'm going to go
back a little bit too. Familyand friends. So you've been in cassright
for many years? Now, whathas happened when it comes to family on
the outside or friends on the outside, when it comes to visitation or you
know, is it continued or whathappens because you've been inside for so long?

(13:20):
Yeah, I think for everybody it'sdifferent, and they're you know,
depending on maybe the support system thatthey may have had or may not have
had when they got incarcerated. So, me being so young, I had
no friends that you know, stayedwith me through any part of my incarceration.
I was a teenager. You know, teenagers aren't thinking about prison and

(13:41):
you know, things like that.My family, really, the relationship with
the majority of my family was alreadytenuous. I feel like most of my
aunts and uncles they resented me becauseof my grandparents raising me, so there
was no relationship there my grandparents.I just lost my grandmother in April.

(14:11):
That was the first, you know, loss of my incarceration, so that
was definitely difficult. It's still difficult, you know. I don't know if
I would ever be not difficult.My grandfather is still alive, He's eighty
eight years old. He's in theearly stages of Alzheimer's right now. My

(14:35):
mother, she was just diagnosed withcancer last week. So yeah, it's
a lot. It's you know,in the beginning, you have this strong
support system and then it just,you know it, the connections get smaller
and smaller as you go through yourincarceration. I am very fortunate though that

(14:56):
I still have visits, I haveyou know, contact, phone calls all
that with the family that I amclose to. I do have a sister,
a half sister, who has threechildren, and her three children are
like my children, so yes,I'm very close with them. I have
a visit. I have a visitat least every week with the kids and

(15:18):
my mom and I talked to mygrandfather on the phone. Wonderful, even
after all these years. It's special. And I'm going to touch on a
subject. It's it's you have youknow, you can share and you you
don't have to say anything at all. But coming being incarcerated so young,

(15:39):
and as you mentioned your you knowyou have nieces and nephews. Just three
nieces, three nieces or girls threenieces, So you have three nieces and
as you said, they're your children. Do or have you ever reflected upon
what it would have been like foryou? Should you share that if you
feel comfortable doing yes. So,I think for some people, the need

(16:03):
to have a child is innate.It's something they just know that they want.
For me, that was always thecase. I always knew that I
wanted to have kids, you know, and I know that that is not
a possibility anymore, even I mean, if I were to get out on

(16:25):
my minimum, I would be fiftyone years old. Really yes, So,
I mean even if I was ableto have children, which I'm not
because I've had some health issues thatwill no longer allow that. It's hard
you grieve a loss of something thatit never was but could have been,

(16:48):
right, you know, and Ithink for most of us here, that's
a lot of things. You know, you have to grieve those losses in
life while you can make a lifehere and you can, you know,
this is your community. You cando what you can, you can help,
you can be the best person youcan be. You still have those
things that you'll never have, andyou have to come to terms with that,

(17:14):
you know, And it's not aneasy thing to do because you know,
it's just you want those things andyou know you can never have them.
How did you or how have youcoped? What is like being here
in the prison? How have youcoped worked through those particular situations. So

(17:37):
as far as not being able tohave the children, I think making my
nieces like my own children has definitelyhelped me. And I am so thankful
that my sister has allowed me tobe such a huge part of their lives.
Yes, you know, I'm veryfortunate that, you know, despite
where I am and my circumstances,that didn't she was never like, oh
no, you know, the minutethey were born, they were in my

(18:00):
arms basically, you know what Imean. So, yeah, they were
here and I was very lucky tohave that opportunity because not everyone does so
for me, that is my copingskill, right. And when you think
forward, you know, you lookahead, what does it look like for

(18:22):
you? What is life? AndI know, stating the obvious, you
are here and you're incarcerated and you'reserving a life sentence, But what is
it do you think about moving forward? Do you think about looking towards the
future, and what does that looklike for you? I do so,
as I said, if I amreleased on my minimum sentence, I'll be
fifty one years old. So thatis a very scary idea. I don't

(18:48):
know what it's like to adult.It isn't that interesting. Yes, yes,
I don't know how to pay taxes. I don't know how to drive
a car. I've never used acell phone. Technology as fast as it
moves, you know, where's itgoing to be in ten years? You
know? And I worry, like, who's going to hire me? I'll

(19:11):
be fifty one years old with nojob history. When I was growing up,
I never remember hearing people talking aboutcredit scores and how that's like a
huge thing, Like I'm starting atnothing, how will that work? Yes?
You know, so it's it's verydaunting, but it's also exciting.
It's exciting because there's so many thingsthat, you know, I've never seen

(19:33):
the ocean. I was just watchinga show last night on TV with my
roommate and she was like, itwas about escalators eating people or something.
Right, great, So I waslike, I've never been on an escalator,
you know, just like simple thingsyes, that people every day take
for granted, and I've never donethem. Yes, and and and all

(19:53):
that note too when we say takefor granted, what about the aging process
in here? As she said,you came in so young, you know,
can you walk us through the differentshall we say times or throughout your
sentence that you know, it couldbe physical, it could be emotional,
it could be you know, psychologically, Can you talk a little bit about

(20:15):
the aging process. Yes, soof course, you know, like you
said, I was so young whenI got here, but I still thought
I was an adult. I thoughtI was grown up. I thought that,
you know, the way that Ithought then was the way that I
would always think. And that's definitelynot I'm that person. I don't even
know who she is. She is, so I'm so like the anti antithesis

(20:40):
of her that I'm like, wow, So yeah, I think that a
lot of people think that when youwhen you come to jail, like time
stops, like or you were yourgrowth stops or you know, something along
those lines. But I think thatyou there are things here that you can

(21:07):
utilize to to grow and to changeand to evolve. And I think if
you don't, then you I couldbe a forty one year old sixteen year
old right now, you know.Mentally and emotionally, yes, I could
be stunted at that that point ofincarceration. So for me, it was
very important to grow up, toto change and evolve and find out who

(21:34):
I was because I didn't know then. Physically, it's definitely been different,
yes, because you know, youthink you're always going to be young,
and you know you're never gonna you'renever gonna need to go to medical,
You're never gonna you know. Butyeah, it's it's been challenging because you

(21:56):
know, I came here and Iwas this person physically and now I'm this
person physically. Yeah. And alsojust talking about like you've you know,
you've attended all these classes and beenvery very busy. You spoke a bit
about mentoring and so forth. ButI want to go back to, you

(22:18):
know, the observation of younger womenor girls coming through. Want to just
go back to that little bit andif you could just clarify if I were
can you see yourself? My questionis, can you see yourself in some
of the younger girls or younger womencoming through and what else that look like?
Yes, yes, and no.When I look at them or when

(22:47):
they're talking to me about something thatthey're going through and it might be a
similar situation to what I've been throughor what I've overcome, it's like,
Wow, I just wish that Iwould have had someone, you know,
to navigate that with me or tohelp me navigate that when I was that
age. But you know, CPSand mentoring it those were programs that didn't

(23:11):
exist at the time that I wasincarcerated, so I was, you know,
all by myself trying to figure itout. And yeah, I can
definitely see myself. A lot ofthem remind me a lot of myself.
Yes, And moving forward, Soif I said tomorrow you're going to be

(23:32):
released, what would that look like, What would you feel, what would
you think? What would you youknow, embrace my gosh, I would
be petrified. I would be excited. Yes, I think there would probably
be so many emotions that I wouldn'teven know. I wouldn't probably wouldn't be

(23:53):
able to sleep until then, youknow, I wouldn't. I wouldn't believe
it until it actually happened. Yeah. What do you miss most? I
miss the ability for a physical interaction, just to give a hug to somebody.

(24:15):
And it might be a crime rightnow for people to know who you
are today. And you've spoken alittle bit about that pastor present. How
would you describe you? How doyou think you are sitting opposite me today?
And again, I've known you fora few years and you've actually talked
about that in that. You know, you've talked to me about this in

(24:37):
the book which is coming out soon, and you have your own chapter in
that. But could you just sharewith the listeners, Yeah, you know,
in hindsight, sitting opposite me today, to give the listeners a perspective
of who are you. I thinkthat I am ambitious, driven, I'm
kind, I'm caring, and I'mpassionate, and I care a lot about

(25:02):
other people. I think that whenyou've been involved in something where somebody loses
their life, you have an immenseresponsibility to make sure that your life is
about helping other people. And didyou ever think you'd be saying those words?
No? Not then no? No? And what would you like to

(25:27):
see maybe change for the better hereat the prisons, you know, in
this prison for women such as yourself, I really like I would really like
it to be more opportunities, more. You know, if you're stagnant and

(25:48):
you're doing nothing, you have nopurpose, there's nothing for you. I
think it was Victor Frankel that said, he who has a why can endure
anyhow, or something to that effect. It was, if you have a
reason, you can get through anything. So I think that the women here
need a reason, you know,they need a purpose, something that they

(26:14):
can get up for every day.And sometimes that's not easy to find,
you know, especially in this typeof environment. Sometimes it's not easy for
people on the outside to find that. So, I mean here, you
can imagine it's just a little harder, sure, And so when you could
you just take us through what doesa day look like for you? So

(26:37):
I would get up, brush myteeth, wash my face, go jump
in the shower, and then Iwould go to my job, which would
be the R two. The waythat it is set up, it's separated
into pods, so I would goon to each pod. I would walk
around door to door because it's likesolitary confinement kind of that, like every

(27:00):
one's locked in and they're in theirown room, and I would stop at
each door and check in, youknow, with each individual and ask them,
you know, how's your mental healthtoday? Are you okay? Is
there anything I can help you with? Do you want to talk about anything?
And I'll just spend some time withthem if they, you know,
wanted to talk. Sometimes they don'twant to talk. It just depends,

(27:22):
and I'll just do that on everypod, just walk around talking to the
ladies and you know, helping themout wherever I can. And do you
do that five days a week,four days a weekend. Right now it's
two. I'm only going two daysa week. But it changes, so
our job assignments as a CPS,they change every ninety days, so every

(27:45):
three months you're rotating somewhere else.So you know, this ninety days I'm
there on the weekends. Next ninetydays I could be in the MHU five
days a week, or I couldbe on a housing unit just wherever.
So you look for to the work, yes, to keeping yourself busy.
Yes, pre covid, I hadspent four years working in re entry,

(28:06):
so that was yes, that wasdefinitely. I enjoyed that very much.
And what when you say re entryfor the listeners, what does that look
like or what was that lie?So re entry is where the ladies would
come who are preparing to leave.So say that they've seen parole and they've
received a positive board action and theyknow that they'll be leaving soon. They
would come up there and see usand we would hook them up with resources

(28:29):
that they could use, help themget identification, their ideas, driver's license,
birth certificates, social Security cards,all that stuff, and just like
set them up with places in theirarea that will be able to help them
once they leave. And that's interestingbecause you're serving a long sentence, So
how did you feel? How didthat feel when you think about that,

(28:52):
I'm still going to remain inside andhere I am helping other women to be
released. What it going on throughyour mind? And it made me feel
good? You know. I liketo see people leave, you know,
and I want to see people leaveand not come back. You know,
I want them to be successful,you know, because that's what I also
want for myself. So some people, a lot of people have asked me

(29:19):
that, like, is that difficultfor you to see those people leaving?
No? Absolutely not, you know, because I feel like I always knew
because I was working there even beforeI was resentenced. So I'm still like,
you know, life is life,and that's it. But it doesn't
mean that you lose that hope.You have to hold on to that hope
because if you don't have it,then what do you have. Absolutely now,

(29:42):
before we finish today, Jessica,is there anything that you'd like to
share with our listeners that we haven'tspoken about, but you'd like them to
know about who you are? BecauseI don't know. The most exciting thing
that's been going on in my liferight now is I've actually been going on

(30:03):
a genealogical journey. Right so,I never knew my father. I've never
met him. My mother refused totell me who he was, so through
the use of reverse genealogy, Inow have narrowed down who my father is
to three brothers. But I'm havingdifficulty from that point. I mean,

(30:27):
I don't have the luxury of theInternet or Google or Facebook or any of
those social media platforms, so I'mreliant on somebody else to do those things
for me. But yeah, Ithink for me, not knowing my father
was always an issue, especially afteryou know, going to school and realizing,

(30:48):
you know, these other children havea mother and a father and I
just have my grandparents. So itwas something that I was always interested in
and curious about. And yeah,so now that is the journey that I'm
on, and it's been a lotof ups and downs on that journey.
It's just like just when you thinkyou found somebody, oh no, you

(31:10):
didn't, or you might have foundsomebody, and you know their receptive at
first until they realize my circumstances andthen it's like, yeah, no,
I don't think we want to.This is a little tough question. But
if you met your father, say, you know, today, tomorrow,

(31:32):
whenever, what would you say.That's a tough question. That is a
tough question. What do you thinkyou would say? And honestly, I've
never even thought about what would Isay. All the questions that I have,
sure, but not what I wouldsay. What could I ask?

(31:52):
Though? And you do not haveto answer this, but what would be
some of the questions if you don'tmind sharing that you would ask. You
know, I would like to knowmy family history, you know, on
my father's side, Like who aremy grandparents? I mean I know who
they are through the reverse genealogy,but who were they as people? You
know, who are you? Youknow? Where has life taken you?

(32:16):
Do I have any siblings? Youknow? I think I would just really
like to know the path that hislife has taken, and from some of
the things that I'm gathering, itmight not have been an easy or good
path. So yeah, that willbe a powerful moment. Yeah, I

(32:37):
wish you all the best that Iread. Yes, it's exciting and it's
also scary. You know. Therejection from other members is kind of but
I can understand too. I mean, if I put myself in their place
and somebody contacts me, then Igoogle them and it's like, oh,

(32:59):
all you know, you don't knowme. You only know what you read
in the newspaper, So I canI can understand. If you think back
now when you were that young,young young girl prior to be incarcerated,
one could only wonder what a differenceit would have made if you'd known your

(33:19):
father. Is that correct? Idon't wish to assume, but absolutely absolutely.
And I found out a lot ofthings that I didn't know when I
was going through my re sentencing process. So like I did not know that
when I was about two years old, my grandmother told me that a man
came and knocked on the door andwas looking for a child that was his.
But she thought, you know,she was doing the right thing by

(33:42):
telling him, Oh, no,that's not here, you have the wrong
place. You know, she thoughtshe was doing the right thing, you
know. And it was just inher last days when she you know,
just kept apologizing for that, youknow. And I don't blame her at
all. She thought she was doingthe right thing. You know. People
are just doing the best that theycan with the tools that they have.

(34:07):
So you know, to put blameor to place any type of you know,
my mom, she just thought shewas doing the right thing. Yes,
you know, she still thinks she'sdoing the right thing. That's okay.
You know, as I said,I wish you all the best.
Then you know, maybe this podcastmaybe someone's listening, and yeah, maybe
they can help you out. Aswell hopefully. I hope so too.

(34:27):
That would be great. Well,Jessica, we're going to finish up.
As it said, our journey's beenlike a decade long, and we will
continue. And I thank you forall your letters as well. It's always
great to write and hear how you'regoing. But yeah, so we're going
to finish up. And again,thank you so much. It's great to
connect and we thank you for yourtime, Jessica. Thank you for having

(34:49):
me. I appreciate it so much. Thank you, Jessica,