Marilyn

Marilyn was arrested in 1972, when she was 19. She has been incarcerated for approximately 52 years and serving two consecutive life sentence in SCI Muncy.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
We'd like to acknowledge for our listenersjust upfront that what you will hear from
individual incarcerated women throughout the episode youmay find to be emotionally charged and even
disturbing, So we just want toacknowledge that and make you aware of that.
Furthermore, something that listeners probably don'trealize is that all of our individual

(00:25):
conversations with each woman was recorded insidea maximum security prison, the State Correctional
Institution SCI Munsey in Pennsylvania here inthe United States. So the noise,
there's any chatter, anything in thebackground. For our listeners just to understand
that we actually recorded inside a prisonwhere the day goes on. The women,

(00:50):
the officers, the staff, theyall have their jobs. Just because
we're there, it doesn't stop.Well, everything becomes quiet. So if
you do, as listeners here anybackground noise, please understand that is part
of being inside a prison. Thankyou for listening to our podcast Self Identities

(01:19):
Conversations with Convicted Women. My nameis doctor Catherine Whiteley. I'm a feminist
criminologist and I'm visiting today the StateCorrectional Institution SCI Munsey, a state prison
in Pennsylvania for women and joining metoday is Marilyn, Marilyn the artist I

(01:42):
believe. How are you, Marilyn, Oh, I'm pretty good. Not
pain today. No, we've interruptedyour time today to have you here,
but thank you for joining us inthis podcast series. Marilyn, would you
like to share with our listeners howlong ago you're in Carson Rted? How
old were you and how old areyou today? Share a little bit about

(02:05):
your background if you don't mind.Well, I actually got arrested in January
seventy two and I had just turnednineteen. And I've been here. If
I've done my math right, fiftyI'm on my fifty second year, I
believe, and I'll be seventy onethis year. Seventy one. Yeah,

(02:29):
And with some of the research I'vedone, I'm pretty sure I've been incarcerated
longer than any woman in Pennsylvania atthe current time. Really wow. And
when we think back then, Marylyn, all those years ago, if you
don't mind going back that far,can you describe the young woman that entered

(02:52):
the prison system. Oh, itwas a whole different person. Matter of
fact, I just shake my headsome time when I think about how I
went from that point to this pointbecause my childhood was very abusive, wasn't

(03:14):
I don't even want to say lowself esteem. I basically had no self
esteem, and I just got accustomedto caring about people because I wanted to
be loved who didn't really care aboutme. When you're abused and your parents
are the ones doing that, youknow, and you love your parents and

(03:36):
stuff, it's like you get usedto that until you find out that's not
the way it's supposed to be.So it literally took me coming to prison
and sitting down and being able tolook back at my life and when my
years are growing up, and Iwas like, how the hell did I
get here? And I was literallyable to sort that out and become the

(04:00):
person I was supposed to be,not the person somebody was trying to make
me into. And where were youborn? Maryland? Actually up in Erie
County, but I was not livingin this state when I got arrested.
Could I ask, and again,you don't have to respond to this,
but the victimization that you endured priorto coming here to the prison, when

(04:25):
you if you're able to do so. I was maybe five years old when
my dad's older cousin actually sexually molestedme. It started with that, and
then my mother just got to thepoint where she was beating me with whatever
she could get her hands on,screaming at me all the time, to

(04:46):
the point where my grandmother used tocome out on the porch from her house
across the road and holler at herstop screaming at me. My dad didn't
know a lot of what was goingon with her. All he knew was
we weren't getting along. But Iwas at the point where when you're threatened
about don't be telling this and don'tbe telling that, and you don't tell

(05:10):
somebody, you have no way ofstopping it. Back in those days,
I don't even know if there wassuch a thing as child and youth services.
How long did you did you sufferabuse? Right up until I got
pregnant when I was fifteen. Myparents gave me a choice to either go

(05:39):
into a home for unwed mothers andgive up the baby without ever seeing it
or knowing even what it was,or get an illegal abortion because abortions weren't
legal back then, or I wouldhave to marry the man that got me
pregnant. I really wanted to keepthe child. The rest of it.

(06:01):
It was like, no, Ididn't even really want to get married,
but because he was an idiot,I have another name for it. But
since we're on, yeah, so, and he ended up being another abuser,

(06:25):
and he was, you know,not with matter of fact. The
first three days we were married,he got mad about something, didn't even
speak to me, and we wereliving with his parents, and then he
got to the point where he wasstalking me. You know, he wasn't
living in the house with me,matter of fact. I was just telling

(06:45):
somebody the other day, I said, I remember a time when I actually
had a job at a hair clinicand he was so mad about me working
and I had been on break inthe back room when he come in there
checking up on me and went backto the house and tore all my dress
clothes up, and so I endedup losing that job. I couldn't keep

(07:12):
a job because he was always interferingand creating problems. And you know,
places you work at they don't playthat. How old were you, Marilyn
at that time, ah, seventeeneighteen. I had had a few jobs
that I either was got fired orwas forced to leave because of my husband.

(07:39):
And the sad part is he didn'twork because he drank all the time.
When I did work as a waitress, he used to take my tips
and go to the bar. AndI'm like, we have a small child.
I literally am shoplifting baby food soshe can eat. And at that
time, what about support around youhelping you through that? Did people recignize

(08:01):
what you were going through? Notreally, No, I mean my parents
did. My dad would try tohelp me out some, but usually my
mom was like barking in his earabout you know, she made her own
bed, she needs to lay init. No, thank you, thank
you, because it's always hard tohave to go back to the past and

(08:22):
yeah, we live that, sothank you for sharing that with us.
I'm going to add a little adendem onto that because the man I was
with when this crime happened, hewas introduced to me by a friend to
protect me from my husband. Ohmy gosh, talk about jumping from the
frying pan into the fire. Wow. I had no idea he would turn

(08:46):
out to be the type of personhe was. You know, I didn't
really know his background, And inmatter of fact, the guy that the
friend had introduced me even called mydad and told him. He said,
I'm sorry I ever even introduced himto her. My goodness, yeah,
can we And moving forward to thatand thank you because it's not easy,

(09:07):
no doubt, to speak about that. What was going through your mind?
You know, you'd been apprehended,possibly going to be sentenced, or when
you were sentenced. What was thatexperience like for you so young and you
mentioned you had a beauty little child. Was what was going through Maryland at
that time? At the time whenthis happened, she was not with me,

(09:30):
She was staying with people were watchingher at the place that we were
actually staying at here in Pennsylvania.But when does it happened? And we
were on the run. He hadtold me, he said, if they
catch you, tell me you didit, because they go easier on women.
But what he didn't tell me washe had no intentions of them taking

(09:50):
him in a wife. You know, these days they called suicide by cop
they I don't think they had thatterminology back then. But but how were
you feeling? And we'll leave thatcrime part to the side because we want
to talk more about you, rightSo when you you know, when you
were arrested and again convicted for thecrime, you know, was there fear

(10:13):
of what was going through your mindknowing that, oh my gosh, now
I'm going to be sentenced for life? What was Could you recall any of
those you know thoughts? Yeah?I can, because my lawyers had actually
talked me into entering a guilty plearight, okay, so that I wouldn't
get the death penalty. And Igot it anyway, right right. And

(10:37):
when you say you got that thedeath penalty, now, could you just
explain what does that mean to forthe listeners? What does that mean to
you? I just felt like Ihave been let down, you know,
every turn I want to I waslet down because I got to a point
where I didn't know who I couldtrust, you know, BS and me

(11:05):
basically and and thank you because Iknow this is this must not be at
all easy for you when you whenyou arrived here at such a young age,
Can you recall just what was youknow, going through Marylyn's mind then?
What could have been going through yourmind then, you know, having
to settle here. I'm not evensure exactly, because I was so traumatized

(11:31):
by this whole thing and I andI was already on medication for depression before
this all happened. So this pushedit a little bit deeper. And were
you able to well, how longdid it shall we say, did it

(11:52):
take you once you were sentenced andarrived here in the prison system, how
long did you or could you sharefor the listeners to settle as best as
you could, or to recognize thatthis is going to be my home or
my you know, where my accommodationis for the next se many years.
When did you get have you gotto that place that understanding that this is

(12:13):
this is going to be my home? Probably about I'm going to say,
between five and eight years here.Yes, you know, this place was
way different back then, right,we had different privileges because of the nature

(12:35):
of my case. There was alot of political involvement, which made it
even harder for me. But Itried to like settle into routine because back
in those days women lifers were doingsix, eight, ten years and they
were getting commutations. So there washope. And my hope was, you

(12:58):
know, once I I was ableto figure out, Okay, I don't
have to abide by everything everybody tellsme. I know, I'm old enough
to make up my own mind betweenwhat I should be doing and what I
shouldn't. But then politics had changedover the years to the point where it
was lock them up and throw awayto key. So when I got to

(13:22):
the point where there was no hopeof ever getting out, I said,
well, I'm going to make thebest of what I can, you know,
just take advantage of the opportunities thatare here, yes, and do
some of the things I was meantto do to begin with that I was
discouraged from doing when I was athome. And what and what are some

(13:46):
of those things painting? I didsay that you took the words right out
of my mouth of saying that.Because I've been able to see some of
you work around the prison here,it's absolutely amazing. Can you tell us
the story though? Where did thisart or this painting begin and what have
you done? Well, I'm justgoing to say to listeners, it's amazing.

(14:07):
Your work is amazing. Thank you. I actually started like trying to
draw horses before I was even oldenough to know how to write my own
name. Really, yes, becausehorses are my first lobe. So anyway,
all throughout the years, and whenI was even in high school,
I had art classes and this issomething you know that I was seriously interested

(14:31):
in. I couldn't see myself,you know, being a secretary or whatever.
But my mom had actually discouraged mefrom doing that. She said,
you're not going to make any moneydoing art. I don't even want to
tell you what she had me doing. But anyway, it wasn't until I

(14:54):
got here and I was like,I really need to draw. I need
to draw something. I need topaint something. And prior to be well,
when I started painting here, Ihad oil paints, and then it
got so we weren't allowed to haveoil paints. So then I tried watercolors.
I couldn't get it to do whatI wanted it to do to make

(15:16):
the picture look And then I wentto acrylics, and I said, all
right, if I spend one hundreddollars getting supplies for acrylic paints, and
it don't work because the difference isthe drying time. Oils takes like a
week or two before they're drying upto paint over acrylics drives in like ten

(15:39):
minutes. Yes, yes, soit made a difference. And once I
started painting with it, and Ifinally figured out how to manipulate the paint
in which brushes I needed to use, and it was like do or die,
you know, and it finally startedto come together. And when it
came together, everything else was awrap. How did you will? People

(16:00):
be asking, well, how didyou get hold of the paint supplies?
You're in the prison, how doyou have access to that? How did
that happen? And recognition that peoplenoticed in order to have all your wonderful
works about around the prison. Well, when I first started painting, we
were able to put orders into likesome of the major art companies like Dick

(16:23):
Blick or Nasco or you know,some of the ones that actually deal with
schools and stuff. So I would, you know, order what I needed,
and there wasn't a limit on howmuch you spent at that point.
So major matter of fact, Ihave a floor as I'm the only person
in this institution it has a woodenfloor easel in their cell. Well that's

(16:48):
how long I've been doing it,my goodness. So anyway, once I
got it and figured out how tomake all this work, then I just
kept on painting. And we usedto have craft sales here like maybe twice
year. I want to say thisin the spring or in the summer and
in the winter, and we usedto be able or sell artwork. Then
not only artwork, but they alsohad crafts like cross stitching, you know,

(17:14):
knitting, little knitting products, appgans, crocheted afghans, different stuff like
that. So anyway, I wasn'tlimited to just selling during the craft shows
because I literally have people staff comingto me and saying, you know,
can you do a painting of myhorse, or can you do a painting
of my dog or something like that. I didn't do portraits. I said,

(17:37):
I'm not good with people. Isaid, the only portrait I'm gonna
paint is somebody dead because they can'tcomplain about I don't have their eyes right.
So yeah, but I could sellit and I basically just put the
cost this thing is just the cost, you know, just to cover my
expenses for the supplies. Do youable to keep myself on art supplies?

(18:00):
And you know, I wanted tobuy a case of sodas periodically I would
be able to afford to do that. But one of the men, but
one of the prisons, took themto court over not being able to sign
his artwork. And that was theend of selling to stay things like this
happened, don't they? I said, if I had a nickel for every

(18:22):
time some staff members said, Iwish we could still buy your paintings,
I'd be independently wealthy. Well,they are really really good, excellent,
They're excellent. So again, goingback just a little bit on that painting,
is there someone who can say,yeah, this person continued to encourage
me with my work here? Becausewe always wonder what is it that the

(18:45):
women do and what do they like? When no doubt the artist is like,
you know, it's more than justwhat you like to do. You're
passionate about it. But was thissomeone within the prison system that encouraged you
here, you know, just generallyspeaking, to continue with this particular path.
I'm trying to think that there reallywas somebody in here. I think

(19:10):
just the fact that people would lookat what I was doing and they're like,
I really like that, you knowwhat I mean? And I would
buy that. That was motive enoughfor me, right right? And where
do your paintings? If you couldexplain to the listener just an idea about
where are your paintings hung here inthe prison, I'd probably be better,

(19:32):
I'm telling you. Yes, theinmate dining room, staff dining room,
the New Infirmary edition, the OldInfirmary. I'm going around the circle here
trying to think about where I havestuff. But you also when you when

(19:52):
you paint, it's also not justto be hung in, shall we say
around the prison? Is what aboutfor other for other women like with you
know, are they able to have? Shall we other works of art in
areas that the women can can hangout in as opposed to let me tell
you about my unit. My unitlooks like an art gallery. Wow,

(20:15):
we'll have to have a look atthat. Yes. Yes, upstairs,
every available piece of wall space hasa painting hung in it. Matter of
fact, I'm encouraging the one kidthat's on meural arts with us now because
I've had people staff come over andsay, I'm taking this painting over for
the meditation room or you know thisor that wonderful. So you've encouraged her,

(20:40):
why don't you do Bourbon Street orthe French Quarter and we can hang
it upstairs where there's an empty spaceon the wall. Wow. Wow.
So so it's a gift for everyone. What you do not just it's not
just part of who you are orthe healing for you, but it's a
gift for everyone from the women hereas well as to anyone that works within

(21:00):
the And I painted things that Iknow people would like to look at.
Matter of fact, upstairs, Igot a lot of landmarks from all over
the world, really really, soI said, it's something nice to look
at rather than looking at the prisonwalls, you know, because being here

(21:23):
this long, this is like neverleaving your backyard for me, and I
was always an adventurer. So ratherthan me have to keep looking at the
same scenery here, I paint whatI want to see wonderful, and I
figure if I want to see it, other people might want to see it
too. Absolutely well, thank you. As I said, I've seen some

(21:45):
of your work. It's just amazing. Marilyn. Could you talk a little
bit about friendship or you know,is there when I say friendship or friendships
inside here or on the outside,and or do you receive visitors since you've
been here for this long? Ido. The man I'm actually married to

(22:07):
right now, I got married tosince I've been here. I've known him
for over thirty years. He usedto live down in Delaware County. He
actually moved up here after I don'tknow, twenty years or so, he
comes to visit on a regular basis. COVID changed a lot of the procedures
and stuff because he's older than Iam. Not Internet savvy, right,

(22:33):
so I have to depend on andhe has to depend on, like his
daughter in law to set up visitsfor us. My daughter's been here I
think once. She's been able toget here since twenty eighteen. But she
lives outside of Cincinnati. So youstill communicate. Oh yeah, and I

(23:02):
got a couple of people I actuallydo have virtual visits with, yes,
yes, And what about here inthe prison for all these years later?
Do you call it friendships acquaintances?Do you have you know, many people
that you feel you could trust oryou work closely with? My roommate right
now is actually like having my youngersister with me because she's also on mural

(23:26):
arts. Our birthdays are literally likeeight days apart, right, But she's
I think seven years younger than Iam. Wow, So I'm going to
just shift a little bit here intheir conversation. Do you think about aging,

(23:47):
well, not think about your experience, but aging death, dying in
this prison? What does that?Do you think about that Oh, absolutely.
Can you share a little bit fromyour perspective? What does that mean?
Aging? And here has been hardbecause I have been seriously active almost
my entire light up until about fiveyears ago. I noticed when I turned

(24:11):
sixty everything started going to hell ina hambasket, so to speak. But
I even kept busy. I wasin the dog program right up until I
want to say, twenty eighteen,twenty eighteen, so I had stayed active.
But since I've been out from doingthat, I'm starting to feel my

(24:37):
age now, yes, which isand I've had problems, you know,
with my hips anyway, which iswhy I'm in a wheelchair because I can't
walk distances anymore. Right, right, I'm just going to touch on the
dog program. What does that entailthe people, for the listeners that don't
understand, the dog program here atMuncie is actually affiliated with Canine Partners for

(24:59):
a lot. These dogs belong tothem and they are being raised as puppies
and being trained to be possibly servicedogs. Wow. That's wonderful, isn't
it. Yes, it is,and your participation or your role in that.
I was in it when the programstarted, and actually this year is
the twentieth year that this program's beenhere, and I was thrilled to see

(25:23):
it come. And I do whatI can to make sure that it stays
here because I'm afraid once if somethinghappened that we lost this program, we
wouldn't get it back. So Istarted off just as being a handler,
and then I was to the pointwhere I was doing all the grunt work

(25:45):
for the program, you know,making sure we had schedules, making sure
we had orders in, making surewe had dog food when we need it,
you know. So there was somestaff that I was just pestering.
I bet you did. When youget to know Marilyn, I bet you
did. And you enjoyed that bythe sounds of it, your face slides
up. Yeah, yeah, soyeah. And I'm still I'm in the

(26:10):
unit that still has the puppies.Matter of fact, I little right by
the front door. So they're inand out constantly, you know, wonderful.
So at nighttime, you know more, after they make their last little
run about eight thirty or four tonine, a couple of ladies will stop
by with the pups and send themen to go see their grandmothers. Wow,
well do you do you know whaton the connection we had even before

(26:32):
we spoke on the phone, becausewe've never met face to face before for
the listeners, just to let themknow that. But was when we were
talking on the phone recently, andI'm looking at a picture of myself a
few years ago when we came todo the documentary until we have Faces,
and there's a picture of me,a photo taken and there's like four beautiful
black dogs beside me, and behindit was this beautiful picture, this painting,

(26:56):
and I was wondering. I wonderedup until we spoke who actually did
this beautiful painting, like a beachpainting and so forth. And then when
we spoke, you said that itwas one of yours, and I thought,
well, my goodness, how howincredible that is, isn't it?
And then we get finally to meet. But yeah, it was a backdrop
and here's a picture of myself withthe dogs. It was just and so
we were meant to connect somewhere.I'm sure, Marylyn, absolutely, I

(27:19):
love doing that backdrop for the Puppyprogram. And hopefully it's still down there
and they're not sure, but it'sstill around or not. But when we're
doing pictures for the Ladies here oncampus. You know, they have their
photo sessions and sometimes they get tohave photo sessions with the dogs. And
so we had one of that backdropbecause we had the dogs hooked up with

(27:42):
these little plastic sunglasses, little sandbockets, you know, little plastic shovels and
stuff. And I had a canvaslaying on the ground inside that dog pen
that it looked like sand. Ohwow, wow. So you're very good.
I just can't say it enough,but you are very good, very
good. But yeah, there wasthat little connection and as I said,

(28:03):
how possibly it was meant to bethat we finally get to sit together and
talk. So I did mention justbefore Marylyn and we talked a little bit
about this. But the thought ofwhat goes through your mind about the sort
of dying in the prison, Idon't even I've thought about it. Yes,

(28:27):
And there's some days and I'm like, I don't even want to get
out of bed this morning. Whydid I even wake up? Yes,
you know, and there's other daysI got things to do and it's like,
Okay, let me get up andget this done. Sometimes, especially
here in the last couple of yearsor so, I want to say COVID
maybe has something to do with it. But the morale and this institution I've

(28:51):
noticed is so low, and wegot so much of a negative atmosphere going
on that I get to or pointsome days I don't even want to leave
my room because I don't want tohear it, you know. And I
got people coming up to me,yam or and you know, wow,
wow, wow, they're talking alot. Oh yeah, And I tell

(29:12):
them, look, you're preaching tothe choir. Yes, do you know,
Marilyn, And what you said whenwe talk about environments, it really
COVID did. And I'm just goingto say that COVID did impact a lot
of people in different ways. Andno doubt what you refer to. Definitely
with the women here too. Atleast they come up to you, and
even though you don't want to listento them, they come up to you
anyway. So that's something, isn'tit. Yeah? But no so,

(29:33):
But I just wanted to know becausepeople always think about you know, aging
and death and dying in an institution, you know, what goes through the
thoughts of women that believe that theymay never be released. And that's why
I asked you that question. Ithink it's just an inevitable fact of life
here because I have seen more womendie in this place than what I've actually

(30:00):
left here. I'm talking women doinglife sentences, right, because at one
point in time, only first degreemurder got like then it got to where
the law changed. Now second degreemurder also has like I have lost count
of the number of women that Iwas friends with that have died here.

(30:21):
And the sad thing is a lotof them had been complaining about different health
problems and they're basically being told,well, you know, take some town
on this and that, and bythe time they get down and they say,
well, maybe we need to sendyou out to see a specialist,
they're in stage four cancer. Youknow, Marilyn, you're thank you for

(30:45):
sharing that these things happen and wedon't understand why. But as you say,
what I think what you're alluding tothere is the trauma that it impacts
a lot of people. Yes,it does when you've been here so long,
and that it is so when there'sa friendship here and that person passes
and there's not much you can doabout that, right, And maybe that's

(31:06):
leaping in hindsight what you're referring tothere. It's like, you know,
we're all vulnerable, but you can'tdo anything about and when that, Yeah,
but I just wondered about yourself,you know, the thoughts of moving
forward. But actually that's a goodquestion, the thoughts of moving forward other
than thinking about the possibility of dyingin a prison system. What do you

(31:26):
look forward to? You're here,so what do you look forward to?
That's a good question. Sometimes it'sjust something nice to eat, you know,
and there's fall in the winter Ilook forward to because I don't go
out to the reckyard. So oncea month they, uh, the inmate

(31:48):
organization comes around with their little icecream cart and we can buy ice cream.
I love ice cream, you do, do, oh absolutely, So
you know that's something to look forwardto. Sometimes when we have some more
incentive meals here because people used tosay years like twenty thirty years ago,

(32:12):
oh the food's so bad here ifthey could see or we're eating now,
that was gourmet compared to this.So sometimes just getting a decent meal,
you know, or have something decenton a tray to eat, because actually
that meant I worked in the kitchenas a clerk, so I know what

(32:36):
the standard nutitional standards are. Butyou know what, we're in a prison.
Yeah, what I mean when youthink about it, we're in a
prison and this is what it is, you know. So yeah, trying
to survive off a commissary you knowwhen we can and that's a that's the
thing. Well, you know Ihave had women talk about commissary, so
thank you for sharing it. Butlike what they can buy or you know

(32:59):
which not to buy. But yeah, it is a prison system. And
as you say, depending on themenu and what we all prefer not to
eat makes a difference to how we'refeeling sometimes. Is that it absolutely is?
Yeah, So I want to moveon beyond the food piece because you
know, I'd love to hear moreabout you. You know, you talk
about what you do with the art. Now is that a paid job?

(33:22):
Is that what you get paid todo? Now? It is? Now?
It is? Well there you go, So now what you're smiling?
You love what you do? Youlove the Paige absolutely said if you if
you love, would you do it'snot work? There you go? And
what about when you think about art? And you mentioned going back when you're
a little girl, you love youcould literally paint before you could do anything

(33:45):
else or draw Education wise, didyou go what level of education did you
you know? Where did you goto school? May I ask. I
got kicked out of high school whenthey found out I was pregnant. I
see, because back in those days, you couldn't be pregnant and still go
to school. So I got kickedout. I I completed my tenth year,

(34:10):
my sophomore year. I was inactually in my junior year at the
time. But anyway, I gotmy GED while I was down in Alleghany
County, which is not the countyI got arrested in, but that,
like I said, politics got involvedin my thing, and I got shipped

(34:31):
around a few places anyway, justto have something to do down there.
I took the GED test right andpassed it. That's wonderful. That's wonderful.
What about here? And here?They had a college program going on.
First it was just correspondence, andI think I was doing correspondence with

(34:53):
how University. And then because Iwas actually in isolation back then, Oh,
I'm going to have to stop youthere for a second. What is
isolation? Not to tell us whatyou're in there for, but what is
isolation for people that don't know.Thank you. Isolation is I was actually
in what they call the old restrictivehousing unit, right because this place didn't

(35:20):
have a fence around it, anda couple of politicians were worried about me
being out on grounds. Fair enough, fair enough, but that was the
old region. That was what thebuilding was like many how many years ago
was that Maryland? Like? Thatwas back in between seventy four and seventy

(35:43):
seven, I want to say,because I had ended up taking them to
court to get back from Allegheny County, and then I had to take them
to court when I got up herebecause I hadn't done anything to be locked
up in solitary confinement. Wow.See, And that's an interesting thing.
We talked about that today. Imean a lot of people don't understand what
solitary confinement stands for, especially today, but it's interesting you shared that experience

(36:07):
from the past to what we nowfor men of us outside understand what it
is today. So thank you forthat, Marilyn. I want to hear
more about you though personally, LikeI said, what gets you up in
the morning, what gets you going, and you know it encourages you to
just keep going. What is thatabout you. Sometimes it's just the projects
I'm working on. Because if I'mrun out of projects to do, I

(36:29):
create projects. I thought you aboutyou say about to say you create problems.
I'd get that too, Marylyn,I get that too. I try
not do, but you know sometimesI do, because you know I you
like to keep busy. Yeah,you do, I do, you do?
Yeah, I'm used to being busy. You know. I was born

(36:49):
into a family or workaholics. Right. My brother's still working, my sister's
still working. Yes, yes,you know, yes, yeah, And
you said I think at the verybeginning this good communication there is that,
correct. I do stay in touchwith them, yes, yes, but
none of them live in their state, right, so sometimes it's like hard
to I can call them, butboth of them, even though they how

(37:15):
computers, they haven't figured out howto do the zoom cloud. I'm like,
wow, I have been living undera rock for fifteen years, and
even I know about the arena ithappens. Oh yeah, but well,
hey, I'm a dinosaur when itcomes to the Internet. Anyway. For
the listeners, I just want tosay that, but I want to just
ask on that note too. You'vebeen here for so long and many of

(37:38):
the other women talk about generally thelonger they're hear they become more abandoned,
you know, people move on orpast loved ones past. Could you just
share for the listener a little bitabout what you've observed or even maybe from
your own experience, you know,the the impact of the longer you're here

(37:58):
as women, and the then itbecomes a priority in other people's lives because
it's said for many reasons. Right. Actually, since I've been here,
I've lost both my parents, havelost my grandmother, I've lost almost all
of my aunts and uncles. ButI look at and haven't been able to
like, you know, you can'tattend to pray, oral service, stuff

(38:22):
like that. But I look atit. It's just it's the natural balance
of life, you know. Itdoesn't matter if I was here or if
I was on the outside. Ifit's their time, it's their time.
When it's my time, it'll bemy time, you know. And some

(38:45):
people have a hard time dealing withthat, especially since oh I should have
been there, and I'm here totell you it doesn't matter if you are
there, it's not going to changethe outcome. It would be nice to
be there, but there's nothing youcould have done to prevent it, you
know, so some things I trynot to go back into my past with

(39:10):
because I didn't have any help withtherapy here. To move on, I
had to basically teach myself how tomove on, which is how I've got
to the point that I am tobe able to do. All Right,
I'm painting, you know, orno, I'm going to sit here and
watch TV. You know, it'sjust very much on TV to watch these

(39:36):
days. But and you know,thank you for sharing that, because it's
not easy having to talk or reflectupon that, right, Thank you,
Thank you, Marilyn. But I'vegot lots of questions here, But as
I said, we always there's somuch to ask and for you to share.
But could you just explain something aboutyou know, we have many young

(39:59):
women coming through and you were ayoung women that came through the system and
the young women that you see todaycoming through the system. Is there any
advice for any of our listeners outthere is too maybe help will what you
see and how we can help willmaybe prevent some of the young women coming
through into the system. Any wordsof wisdom there from your experience inside?

(40:23):
I used to actually before they hadmentoring programs in here, mentor a lot
of some of the people that wereyounger than me, you know, to
try to help them. You know, this is what you need to do
in order to avoid coming back hereand making the same mistake twice. What
I've had people tell me is abouttheir boyfriends, you know, or their

(40:47):
home situation or whatever. And I'mlike, you need to start putting on
your big girl panties and going outand get yourself a job and get yourself
situated. Don't go back into thatsame environment, because that's how a lot
of people end up back here orworse. I've seen that happen too many

(41:09):
times. So I would say forpeople, younger people, they need to
figure out who they are. Youknow, what is it you like to
do, what motivates you to sayget up and get out of bed in
the morning. What is it youwould like to do? You know?

(41:31):
And if someone would start pursuing that, you know, still working, because
you know, you got to work. And that's one of the things I'm
seeing and here is some of thisyounger generation, they're getting so entitled that
they think, oh, you know, I don't need to have a job
because somebody will take care of me. Somebody's gonna put food on the table.

(41:52):
And I think the thing that hurtsme the most is to see people
enabling that behavior. So you know, I'm trying to explain to them.
And when people were interested in artwork, I'm like, oh, yeah,
come here, wonderful. See that'simportant, isn't it. See what you're
doing to help you? Yeah.Absolutely, because you know you've you've walked

(42:15):
the walk. So I'm still sittinghere today talking about that. So we've
just got a few minutes left here. And is there anything else you'd like
to share with the listeners about,particularly about who you were who you are
today and again something that you knowthat we haven't touched on, Is anything
else you'd like to share? I'mtrying to think about maybe what. But

(42:38):
I still love animals, yes,yes, and that's never going to change
and I wouldn't want to change it. A lot of the activities that I
like doing, they don't have ithere. I'm not into basketball, I'm
not in the softball. My thingwas waterskiing, horseback riding, you know,

(43:04):
hiking, you know. Yeah,And I was always interested in like
anthropology, archaeology, I actually havea college degree since I've been here.
Say, Marilyn, what's this aboutthe degree? It took you? How
long to get washed? Yeah,it took me eight years to get a
two year liberal arts degree. Congratulations, thank you. So I was actually

(43:25):
doing all my studying because I wasworking in maintenance at the time, So
I'm literally doing heavy physical labor foreight hours during the day and then coming
in in the evening sitting down todo my class work because we had classes
like two nights a week that ranfrom I want to say, five o'clock

(43:47):
in the afternoon to eight o'clock midnight, or maybe it was six to nine.
I don't remember, but yeah,so there was times I was up
till one two o'clock in the morning, you know, reading and doing my
studies and making notes and stuff likethat. Put how long ago was that

(44:08):
I got the diploma in nineteen ninetyone, And I'm not even going to
ask how old you were then,but you know, i'd have to do
the mayth well just a few yearsago. But anyhow, congratulations, but
you got that. So, asI said, overall, you'd like to
keep busy. You like to helpothers, and you do a lot of

(44:29):
that through you, you know,through your art work and the mentoring,
especially for your art as well.Yeah, because what I find too is
if you keep busy doing stuff,it makes the time go faster, yes,
which, in the grand scheme ofthings, can be a good things.
Yes. Yes, so well,I think you know, Marilyn,

(44:52):
it has been a pleasure talking toyou. And this is, as I
said, face to face, thisis you know, it takes a lot
of courage sitting here and saying hellofor the first time, you know,
sharing sharing your you know, yourlife, you know, through from the
younger ages right through to now wewere sitting. So I just want to
say thank you, Marilyn, andkeep thank you for having you keep up

(45:12):
the great book with that art.It's it's amazing, and our journey is
just beginning right, Yes, itis, it is. It's lovely.
Thank you so much, Marilyn.You're very awcome. Thank you m m