February 4, 2025 • 27 mins
Michelle, now 55, has lived a life shaped by unimaginable challenges. Convicted at 31 and sentenced to death, she spent 14 years on death row before her sentence was commuted to life without parole. Her story begins in a troubled home, marked by substance abuse and physical and emotional trauma. Join us as we delve into Michelle's past, her time on death row, and the resilience it takes to navigate life behind bars.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
We'd like to acknowledge for our listeners just upfront that
what you will hear from individual incarcerated women throughout the
episode you may find to be emotionally charged and even disturbing,
So we just want to acknowledge that and make you
aware of that. Furthermore, something that listeners probably don't realize
(00:22):
is that all of our individual conversations with each woman
was recorded inside a maximum security prison, the State Correctional
Institution SCI Munsey in Pennsylvania here in the United States.
So the noise, there's any chatter, anything in the background.
(00:44):
For our listeners just to understand that we actually recorded
inside a prison where the day goes on. The women,
the officers, the staff, they all have their jobs. Just
because we're there, it doesn't stop or everything becomes quiet.
So if you do, as listeners here any background noise,
please understand that is part of being inside a prison.
(01:18):
Hello everyone, and thank you for tuning into our podcast
Self Identities Conversations with Convicted Women. My name is doctor
Catherine Whiteley. I'm a feminist criminologist. Today I am visiting
SCI Muncy, a state correctional facility for women in Pennsylvania
(01:39):
in the United States. And joining me today is Michelle. Hi, Michelle,
how are you good?
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Great?
Speaker 1 (01:47):
It's you know, it's a first time we've met, so
it's pretty exciting for me to meet you.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Fading for me too.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Yeah, we're going to have a great discussion and great
conversation to learn more about you.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Okay, Michelle. What I ask many of the women.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Is if they could reflect back on parts pieces of
their childhood, would you be able to share some? You know,
it could be good, bad, indifferent about your childhood, about
growing up if you don't mind.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Yeah, I was born in Kannonsburg to a very dysfunctional family.
My parents. Both of my parents were drug head alcoholics.
My grandparents mainly raised me throughout my childhood and that
I was back and forth with my father. My mother
(02:40):
abandoned me when I was a little over two years
old for the drugs, the men.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
What about those teenage years if you don't mind, Michelle,
something in.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
When I was with my grandparents in the like when
I was like nine eight nine years old, my grandparents
got full custody of me. Those were the best years
was with them. You know, I felt the love that
I always wanted for my parents but never got yeah,
and it was good, you know, to feel that, Like
(03:18):
I looked at them as my mother and father, not
as grandparents, because that's who they really were to me.
But throughout the process, my dad, my father would get
us back in that it was very abusive. Not with
my father, with the women he was with. They were
very abusive towards me and my brother because of the
fact of being from other you know, women. So then
(03:42):
my grandparents, like police everything had to get involved and
removed us from my father's custody and put us with
my grandparents. So until I graduated school, I was with
them and it was really good. But I think because
of all the abuse that I endured from being a
child into teenage to adult that I continued that abuse
(04:05):
pattern and I put myself in abusive relationships with men
until I came here. Okay, so it was really dysfunctional
all the way around.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yes, with your grandparents, what did you love to do
when you said that was special?
Speaker 3 (04:21):
We just did a lot of things, like I went
bowling with my grandfather. My grandmother would take me to
bingo and stuff. We did a lot of just home stuff.
You know. It was big on holidays and that, like
because My grandmother had twelve kids, so we had a
lot of aunts, uncles, cousins and that, and it was
big functionals on the weekends, football games, stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Yeah, it sounds very family orange, doesn't it. I got
to say my mother used to drag me along to
bingo too. I never used to wait and bet all
but I.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Did like it, did you? Yeah, but when I got older,
I used to go with her all the time. So, well,
I hope you want.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
I hope you won because I never did.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
So, if we're talking a little bit about.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
What you experienced when you say, Michelle, some of the trauma,
and I again only only talk about what you wish,
but what type of trauma? And I don't mean to
single that out the word type, But what trauma did you?
Shall we say go through? What did you experience? If
(05:23):
you don't mind without mentioning anyone in particularly just for yourself.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Well, when I was a child, I was removed from
my mother's care because of the abuse with her. She
would abuse me and my little brother and it got
to the point where the police were involved and they
removed us and then put us in my father's custody.
(05:52):
It was a lot of physical, a lot of mental
and emotional from the women that he was with, but
there was physical involved too. And then, like I said,
when I got older to where I was dating and stuff,
it was a lot of physical sexual.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Really.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
And at that time growing up, were there other than
your grandparents? But was there any other outside help that
acknowledged what you were going through? You and your sibling?
Speaker 3 (06:23):
No?
Speaker 1 (06:24):
No, And why do you think that, Michelle? Was it?
Was it that generation or was it your family upbringing?
Why do you think that?
Speaker 3 (06:36):
I really don't know. I don't know. Yes, I mean,
like the police and stuff child welfare and that they
got involved when they removed me my brother from my mother,
you know what I mean. But when it came down
to being with my father and his wife, they stepped
into because of me going to school and the bruises
(06:59):
and stuff that I had on me, and that that's
what got me removed then, or I would have probably
stayed in the custody. Yes, But the only time I
was safe was with my grandparents, right. I never went
through that with them.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Is that how you dealt with some of the trauma
by having the security of your grandparents?
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Are you able to talk a little bit about what
the support they would offer if you.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Don't know, it was unconditional love with them, yes, yeah, No,
they accepted me and they just loved me.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Grandparents are very special on things. Yes, yes, So moving
on in your lateeen early twenties, are you able to share,
you know, who was Michelle then?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
What was going on in your life?
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Not a whole lot at school. I got pregnant at seventeen,
and I had my first child at eighteen, I graduated
high school, and then two years later I had my
second child, and two years after that my other one.
So it was mainly just stay at home. I did
stay at home. I was with my kids and stuff
(08:09):
like that, with my grandparents' help like they were with
me the whole way through.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Yes, yeah, very special. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
So moving forward, could we talk a little bit about
prior to you entering the incarceration process, what was happening
with Michelle at that time? And again we don't talk,
as you know, about the crime criminality, We want to
know about yourself. What was happening to you prior to
(08:41):
stay having to sit here today, What was happening in
your life at that time?
Speaker 2 (08:46):
If you were able to recall some of that.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Just a lot of abuse, to be honest, Yes, yes,
a lot of abuse.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Michelle. What would you share with women today that have
being or going through.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Possibly similar to what you've experienced. What in hindsight, what
could you share with them all.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
To not stay quiet tonight? In my in my mind.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
M hm, being quiet is we'll go against, we'll go against.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Yeah. Yeah, when I always wanted my dad's love, m.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Well, you know, yeah, there are certain family members that
we wish for that to happen.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
He never abused me, He never did. He never abused
any of my siblings. But he wasn't a hands on dad.
His women and drugs came before or any of that.
So me, I think I put myself in the situations
(10:07):
I did with the man I was with because looking
for that love, the fatherly. Yes, and in my sick,
demented way, I feel that by them beating on me
and treating me the way that they did, that was
their way of showing me love. And I know now
(10:30):
that it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Yes, yeah, thank you, thank you, Michelle.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
We're going to move on a little bit and are
you able to share with us when you were you
incarcerated in a county jail. Yeah, thank you. You know,
I've asked a lot of women about the county jail
experience prior to coming here. Are you able to reflect
(11:02):
upon what was going on in your life at that
time in a county jail? What was yeah, what was
happening with you at that time if you don't mind
reflecting when I went to county to yes, when you
went to County, thank you.
Speaker 4 (11:18):
Well.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
When I got arrested, and that was my first time
ever being in trouble, I've never been in trouble with
a law or anything. So when I went to County,
it was really scary, Like it was a men's jail,
but they had one floor for the females and that
so we were all on one floor together. There was
probably like between fifty maybe fifty five of us. We
(11:40):
were selled separately, like we had our own cell. We
had like a common room where you could watch TV
and stuff. We had a washrom dryer where we could
wash our clothes. Off to the side of the unit
where we lived up there was like a little outdoor
wreck area where there was a basketball court. You could
play basketball or just like sit in the sun there
(12:03):
was a big TV. Who watched TV. They had church services,
stuff like that, Narconics, anonymous, you could go to AA
meetings stuff like that. Mainly we just like sat around
and talked, played cards, watched TV and that. It was
a hard adjustment. I was there a couple of years
before I went to trial and that, so it was
(12:23):
it was a lot. But I had my family, my grandparents, yes,
and my dad at the time. You know that I
was there, so it helped a lot. But yes, it
was something I would never wish on anybody. I wouldn't no, no.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
And then and then Michelle moving forward after being sentenced,
so you arrived, could you share the way you went
next and the experience which is sort of slowly looking
at you know who you've become over the years and
so forth.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
I was sentenced to death, Okay. I came to Munsey
in December of two thousand with a death sentence. I
stayed on death row for fourteen years before I came down. Wow,
it was very hard when I was sentenced because all
(13:20):
of my rights were terminated. They were terminated completely. My
grandparents both passed away shortly after I was sentenced to death.
Then my dad died a couple of years after that,
so like I had no family, know nothing. It was
a hard struggle and as much as it hurt, at
the same time, I was safe, like I didn't have
(13:43):
to worry about getting beat up on or you know
what I mean. Like I was in my own little
because on the when you went to death Row, you
were housed by yourself, like it was just death Row
on one floor and you were in a cell by yourself.
We got to come out and do details stuff like that,
take a shower, go to rack, but mainly you just
(14:05):
had a lot of time to reflect and think about everything. Yes,
which I grew a lot up there, like I stayed
out of trouble. I did what I had to do,
and then I came down here, and I think I'm
doing very well for being down here. As long as
I've been down almost nine years down here, I have
(14:27):
two jobs, I've done the groups that I can deal
with being on sentenced. There's only so much I can.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Do right, but right I will take you back a
little bit there. Thank you so much, because for outsiders
wanting to understand about what you experienced on death Row
will start there. You mentioned it was five.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Years or seven years you're on the road on death row,
like fourteen I'm sorry, fourteen years. My apologies there.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
So in that period of time, Michelle, as you said,
it was a time of reflection. You mentioned detail. So
for many people that are listening, they're not sure what
did detail? When you're on death row? What did detail?
Speaker 3 (15:11):
What is that they would let us come out and
clean the unit that we lived on. We would like
come out and sweep them up, the floors, clean the showers,
do laundry, just kept the place up to par for
like us and the other inmates that were housed there
with us.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Right and when you and again reflection only. But Michelle,
when you think back to those days and again, I
suppose it's just presenting to our listeners, what is death
wrote the experience that you went through.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
What does that look like visually?
Speaker 1 (15:42):
You know you mentioned in the cell, but what access
did you have or was any access to family members?
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Or we could have visits, we could have two visits
a week. They were non contact through plexiglass for an
hour long. If they came from along, you know, like
far away, they would extend in that for us, we
were in our cell a lot but we got to
come out, like I said, and do the detail. We
had a common room where it had a big TV
(16:11):
and like we'd have tables, puzzles, stuff like that, because
there was at the time when I was there, there
was anywhere from between four to six of us there,
so we could be together in the common room together,
like we could go down and play games stuff like that.
But when we were in our cell, we were by ourselves,
like we weren't allowed to live together anything, and we
were not allowed to associate with the other inmates because
(16:35):
we were a level five even though they were level five.
We were death row right right, So it was mainly
us to where like we've we got very close with
each other and depended on it. Like we went through
a lot of hard times up there. It was a struggle.
I'm not going to I can speak for myself, but
I mean just being around them, it was a struggle
for all of us. It was a it was a lot, yes,
(17:00):
but I think with each other we grew, we got stronger.
I was the last one to come off of the row,
and I was up there for over two years by
myself without anybody. Really.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Yes, when you as you've discussed there being by yourself.
It's sometimes very hard for people to comprehend day after day.
Did you have ever any recollection that your sense would change?
I mean, or was it like I'm expecting to knock
at the door and something's going to happen. Could you
(17:31):
could rather than stereotyping people's perception, if you don't mind.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
No, I didn't think I was going to come off
of that throw my warrant was actually signed or they
gave me an execution date to yeah, I got to stay.
I have really good lawyers that have fought and stood
by me, you know, to get me to work in GP. Now, Okay,
(17:56):
as where it stands now, I don't know what I'm looking.
I could go back to death row. They could resentence
me back to death, or I could get life, or
they could plead me. I don't know what's going to happen.
I pray for the best, prepare for the worst.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
But thank you, and just for our listeners, you're in
that transition now, you're just not sure. As you said
you were on death row, you know, and when you
mentioned GP for our listeners, it's general population, thank you,
and so you're in you're with general population with the
other women, but as you've mentioned, you don't know there's
(18:32):
a recensing in.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Which that could be. That's correct, Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
So Now in general population, Michelle, what is your experience
like and well, what has it been like.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
When I first came down, it was scary just being
secluded for so long away from everybody in that but
I'm just safe. I can honestly, Like a lot of
people say it's scary, which it is scary, it's not
so much now. I don't label this as home, but
it is my home because I don't know what the
(19:08):
future is going to bring. I'm not going to say
that I'm content being here, but I make the best
of every day. You know, I have two jobs, which
I love very much. I like to do what I do.
I've done some groups. I mainly say to myself, I
stay in my room, watch my TV, play on my tablet.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Yes, Michelle, when you talk about your jobs, would you
be able to tell us what are your jobs?
Speaker 3 (19:41):
I'm a unit detail on our unit. I do the
unit detail where I do the laundry and clean the unit,
the showers, the floors and everything. And then I work
at admissions that's where their intakes are they bring their
intakes in from outside and I do all the cleaning
and stuff over there. Anything they need me to do,
I do over their stock everything and clean.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
And is that like Monday to Friday? I'm staring.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
My detail is Monday through Friday on the unit and
then I work Monday, Wednesday and Friday at admissions. But
I'm on call all five days or if they need
me Tuesdays or Thursdays, I work there too, right.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Reflecting on the trauma over the years that you had enjured,
particularly as a child, since you've been here in Sei
Munsey in general population, do you have a counselor or
a psychologist or people that are around you to help
you work constantly through your past trauma.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Could you share a little bit about that.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
I've been on medication since I've came here. When I
was a county, when I was arrested, I was put
on medication for different things that I have going on.
Within like the last two and a half years, I've
gotten off the medicine to where, like me, working keeps
my off out of my head and keeps me busy
to where I don't think about things that are out
(21:04):
of my control. But I do have a great support system.
I have staff on the unit that are there if
I need to talk to them, and then if I
need to see a psychologist psychiatrist, I have them as
well that I can see in that I see them
every thirty days and I see and I see somebody
on my unit weekly.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Right, thank you.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
The other things that you do other than the detailing,
what programs have you participated in over there?
Speaker 3 (21:37):
I've done several groups.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Would you like to share some with us?
Speaker 3 (21:40):
What have you done? I've done thinking Positive for a change.
I've done that. I've done adapt and overcome. That's when
I came off the row. I came down and did that,
from transitioning from death row to general population. I've done
Living Safely for Women science prevention.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Could you choose one or two of those and explain
for end listeners what it entails.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
The Living Safely for Women I just completed, and that
was mainly to live better and make better choices with yourself,
not only for yourself, but your surroundings and the people
that you're around, and like to think in a different
light than what you like what I did before, to
(22:29):
see things differently, and I learned a lot from it.
I got a lot from it and the adapt and
overcome that I did. The group that I did was
a lot of letting go of things that are not
longer in my control. I held on to a lot
for a long time and I learned to be able
(22:50):
to let go of it.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, Michelle, death, dying, aging. I know
that sounds awful to say, but do you ever think
about not just aging in the prison system, but the
death and dying considering your journey?
Speaker 3 (23:09):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Yeah, Are you able to share a little bit about
any thoughts on that.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
There's a lot that I would like to say to
a lot of people, and you, M h before that
day would come. But I've made peace m Yes. And
(23:50):
at the end of the day, Yeah, I know what
I did and didn't Yes, And God knows, I've always
been the time to where I wanted everybody's approval and
wanted people to like me.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
In that.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
I know I'm not the person that people would make
me up to me. I've made mistakes, big.
Speaker 5 (24:24):
Ones, and if I could take it back, I would,
But I know if I would die today or tomorrow,
I've made peace with them myself. Yes, Yeah, I can't
say really about it.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Thank you, Michelle. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Yeah, we have a few minutes left, Michelle. And it's
a journey that you've traveled looking back to where you
are today. Is there a message or you've just summarized
exactly you know way you.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Feel at this stage.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Is there anything that you would like to share with
our listeners about the Michelle that they don't know about
but you want them to know about.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
That I'm not a bad person, but I have good qualities,
and that I was young and I made mistakes and
I regret those mistakes. I would just like to say
that people should get to know people for them and
not what they hear what they read. To really get
(25:41):
to know them, you might be surprised at what you
see or what you you know you find out about
them because you can't always judge a book by its cover.
You can't.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Michelle. I would like to say thank you so much much.
It's been a very intense conversation and I can't thank
you enough for having the courage and strength to talk
us through your journey.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
And I wish you all the best.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
And this is not the last time you'll see of me, Michelle,
So I'm warning you now. Thank you so much, thank you,
Michelle be much having me our pleasure.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
Thank you, thank you, thank you for joining us on
another episode of Self Identities Conversations with Convicted Women, a
Flying Possums production in association with Nutter Productions. We deeply
(26:50):
appreciate the support of our listeners and the contributions from
everyone who has made this podcast possible. Your engagement and
encouragement drive us to continue these important conversations until next time.
Take care,
We'd like to acknowledge for our listeners just upfront that
what you will hear from individual incarcerated women throughout the
episode you may find to be emotionally charged and even disturbing,
So we just want to acknowledge that and make you
aware of that. Furthermore, something that listeners probably don't realize
(00:22):
is that all of our individual conversations with each woman
was recorded inside a maximum security prison, the State Correctional
Institution SCI Munsey in Pennsylvania here in the United States.
So the noise, there's any chatter, anything in the background.
(00:44):
For our listeners just to understand that we actually recorded
inside a prison where the day goes on. The women,
the officers, the staff, they all have their jobs. Just
because we're there, it doesn't stop or everything becomes quiet.
So if you do, as listeners here any background noise,
please understand that is part of being inside a prison.
(01:18):
Hello everyone, and thank you for tuning into our podcast
Self Identities Conversations with Convicted Women. My name is doctor
Catherine Whiteley. I'm a feminist criminologist. Today I am visiting
SCI Muncy, a state correctional facility for women in Pennsylvania
(01:39):
in the United States. And joining me today is Michelle. Hi, Michelle,
how are you good?
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Great?
Speaker 1 (01:47):
It's you know, it's a first time we've met, so
it's pretty exciting for me to meet you.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Fading for me too.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Yeah, we're going to have a great discussion and great
conversation to learn more about you.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Okay, Michelle. What I ask many of the women.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Is if they could reflect back on parts pieces of
their childhood, would you be able to share some? You know,
it could be good, bad, indifferent about your childhood, about
growing up if you don't mind.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Yeah, I was born in Kannonsburg to a very dysfunctional family.
My parents. Both of my parents were drug head alcoholics.
My grandparents mainly raised me throughout my childhood and that
I was back and forth with my father. My mother
(02:40):
abandoned me when I was a little over two years
old for the drugs, the men.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
What about those teenage years if you don't mind, Michelle,
something in.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
When I was with my grandparents in the like when
I was like nine eight nine years old, my grandparents
got full custody of me. Those were the best years
was with them. You know, I felt the love that
I always wanted for my parents but never got yeah,
and it was good, you know, to feel that, Like
(03:18):
I looked at them as my mother and father, not
as grandparents, because that's who they really were to me.
But throughout the process, my dad, my father would get
us back in that it was very abusive. Not with
my father, with the women he was with. They were
very abusive towards me and my brother because of the
fact of being from other you know, women. So then
(03:42):
my grandparents, like police everything had to get involved and
removed us from my father's custody and put us with
my grandparents. So until I graduated school, I was with
them and it was really good. But I think because
of all the abuse that I endured from being a
child into teenage to adult that I continued that abuse
(04:05):
pattern and I put myself in abusive relationships with men
until I came here. Okay, so it was really dysfunctional
all the way around.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yes, with your grandparents, what did you love to do
when you said that was special?
Speaker 3 (04:21):
We just did a lot of things, like I went
bowling with my grandfather. My grandmother would take me to
bingo and stuff. We did a lot of just home stuff.
You know. It was big on holidays and that, like
because My grandmother had twelve kids, so we had a
lot of aunts, uncles, cousins and that, and it was
big functionals on the weekends, football games, stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Yeah, it sounds very family orange, doesn't it. I got
to say my mother used to drag me along to
bingo too. I never used to wait and bet all
but I.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Did like it, did you? Yeah, but when I got older,
I used to go with her all the time. So, well,
I hope you want.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
I hope you won because I never did.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
So, if we're talking a little bit about.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
What you experienced when you say, Michelle, some of the trauma,
and I again only only talk about what you wish,
but what type of trauma? And I don't mean to
single that out the word type, But what trauma did you?
Shall we say go through? What did you experience? If
(05:23):
you don't mind without mentioning anyone in particularly just for yourself.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Well, when I was a child, I was removed from
my mother's care because of the abuse with her. She
would abuse me and my little brother and it got
to the point where the police were involved and they
removed us and then put us in my father's custody.
(05:52):
It was a lot of physical, a lot of mental
and emotional from the women that he was with, but
there was physical involved too. And then, like I said,
when I got older to where I was dating and stuff,
it was a lot of physical sexual.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Really.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
And at that time growing up, were there other than
your grandparents? But was there any other outside help that
acknowledged what you were going through? You and your sibling?
Speaker 3 (06:23):
No?
Speaker 1 (06:24):
No, And why do you think that, Michelle? Was it?
Was it that generation or was it your family upbringing?
Why do you think that?
Speaker 3 (06:36):
I really don't know. I don't know. Yes, I mean,
like the police and stuff child welfare and that they
got involved when they removed me my brother from my mother,
you know what I mean. But when it came down
to being with my father and his wife, they stepped
into because of me going to school and the bruises
(06:59):
and stuff that I had on me, and that that's
what got me removed then, or I would have probably
stayed in the custody. Yes, But the only time I
was safe was with my grandparents, right. I never went
through that with them.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Is that how you dealt with some of the trauma
by having the security of your grandparents?
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Are you able to talk a little bit about what
the support they would offer if you.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Don't know, it was unconditional love with them, yes, yeah, No,
they accepted me and they just loved me.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Grandparents are very special on things. Yes, yes, So moving
on in your lateeen early twenties, are you able to share,
you know, who was Michelle then?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
What was going on in your life?
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Not a whole lot at school. I got pregnant at seventeen,
and I had my first child at eighteen, I graduated
high school, and then two years later I had my
second child, and two years after that my other one.
So it was mainly just stay at home. I did
stay at home. I was with my kids and stuff
(08:09):
like that, with my grandparents' help like they were with
me the whole way through.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Yes, yeah, very special. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
So moving forward, could we talk a little bit about
prior to you entering the incarceration process, what was happening
with Michelle at that time? And again we don't talk,
as you know, about the crime criminality, We want to
know about yourself. What was happening to you prior to
(08:41):
stay having to sit here today, What was happening in
your life at that time?
Speaker 2 (08:46):
If you were able to recall some of that.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Just a lot of abuse, to be honest, Yes, yes,
a lot of abuse.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Michelle. What would you share with women today that have
being or going through.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Possibly similar to what you've experienced. What in hindsight, what
could you share with them all.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
To not stay quiet tonight? In my in my mind.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
M hm, being quiet is we'll go against, we'll go against.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Yeah. Yeah, when I always wanted my dad's love, m.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Well, you know, yeah, there are certain family members that
we wish for that to happen.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
He never abused me, He never did. He never abused
any of my siblings. But he wasn't a hands on dad.
His women and drugs came before or any of that.
So me, I think I put myself in the situations
(10:07):
I did with the man I was with because looking
for that love, the fatherly. Yes, and in my sick,
demented way, I feel that by them beating on me
and treating me the way that they did, that was
their way of showing me love. And I know now
(10:30):
that it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Yes, yeah, thank you, thank you, Michelle.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
We're going to move on a little bit and are
you able to share with us when you were you
incarcerated in a county jail. Yeah, thank you. You know,
I've asked a lot of women about the county jail
experience prior to coming here. Are you able to reflect
(11:02):
upon what was going on in your life at that
time in a county jail? What was yeah, what was
happening with you at that time if you don't mind
reflecting when I went to county to yes, when you
went to County, thank you.
Speaker 4 (11:18):
Well.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
When I got arrested, and that was my first time
ever being in trouble, I've never been in trouble with
a law or anything. So when I went to County,
it was really scary, Like it was a men's jail,
but they had one floor for the females and that
so we were all on one floor together. There was
probably like between fifty maybe fifty five of us. We
(11:40):
were selled separately, like we had our own cell. We
had like a common room where you could watch TV
and stuff. We had a washrom dryer where we could
wash our clothes. Off to the side of the unit
where we lived up there was like a little outdoor
wreck area where there was a basketball court. You could
play basketball or just like sit in the sun there
(12:03):
was a big TV. Who watched TV. They had church services,
stuff like that, Narconics, anonymous, you could go to AA
meetings stuff like that. Mainly we just like sat around
and talked, played cards, watched TV and that. It was
a hard adjustment. I was there a couple of years
before I went to trial and that, so it was
(12:23):
it was a lot. But I had my family, my grandparents, yes,
and my dad at the time. You know that I
was there, so it helped a lot. But yes, it
was something I would never wish on anybody. I wouldn't no, no.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
And then and then Michelle moving forward after being sentenced,
so you arrived, could you share the way you went
next and the experience which is sort of slowly looking
at you know who you've become over the years and
so forth.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
I was sentenced to death, Okay. I came to Munsey
in December of two thousand with a death sentence. I
stayed on death row for fourteen years before I came down. Wow,
it was very hard when I was sentenced because all
(13:20):
of my rights were terminated. They were terminated completely. My
grandparents both passed away shortly after I was sentenced to death.
Then my dad died a couple of years after that,
so like I had no family, know nothing. It was
a hard struggle and as much as it hurt, at
the same time, I was safe, like I didn't have
(13:43):
to worry about getting beat up on or you know
what I mean. Like I was in my own little
because on the when you went to death Row, you
were housed by yourself, like it was just death Row
on one floor and you were in a cell by yourself.
We got to come out and do details stuff like that,
take a shower, go to rack, but mainly you just
(14:05):
had a lot of time to reflect and think about everything. Yes,
which I grew a lot up there, like I stayed
out of trouble. I did what I had to do,
and then I came down here, and I think I'm
doing very well for being down here. As long as
I've been down almost nine years down here, I have
(14:27):
two jobs, I've done the groups that I can deal
with being on sentenced. There's only so much I can.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Do right, but right I will take you back a
little bit there. Thank you so much, because for outsiders
wanting to understand about what you experienced on death Row
will start there. You mentioned it was five.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Years or seven years you're on the road on death row,
like fourteen I'm sorry, fourteen years. My apologies there.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
So in that period of time, Michelle, as you said,
it was a time of reflection. You mentioned detail. So
for many people that are listening, they're not sure what
did detail? When you're on death row? What did detail?
Speaker 3 (15:11):
What is that they would let us come out and
clean the unit that we lived on. We would like
come out and sweep them up, the floors, clean the showers,
do laundry, just kept the place up to par for
like us and the other inmates that were housed there
with us.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Right and when you and again reflection only. But Michelle,
when you think back to those days and again, I
suppose it's just presenting to our listeners, what is death
wrote the experience that you went through.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
What does that look like visually?
Speaker 1 (15:42):
You know you mentioned in the cell, but what access
did you have or was any access to family members?
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Or we could have visits, we could have two visits
a week. They were non contact through plexiglass for an
hour long. If they came from along, you know, like
far away, they would extend in that for us, we
were in our cell a lot but we got to
come out, like I said, and do the detail. We
had a common room where it had a big TV
(16:11):
and like we'd have tables, puzzles, stuff like that, because
there was at the time when I was there, there
was anywhere from between four to six of us there,
so we could be together in the common room together,
like we could go down and play games stuff like that.
But when we were in our cell, we were by ourselves,
like we weren't allowed to live together anything, and we
were not allowed to associate with the other inmates because
(16:35):
we were a level five even though they were level five.
We were death row right right, So it was mainly
us to where like we've we got very close with
each other and depended on it. Like we went through
a lot of hard times up there. It was a struggle.
I'm not going to I can speak for myself, but
I mean just being around them, it was a struggle
for all of us. It was a it was a lot, yes,
(17:00):
but I think with each other we grew, we got stronger.
I was the last one to come off of the row,
and I was up there for over two years by
myself without anybody. Really.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Yes, when you as you've discussed there being by yourself.
It's sometimes very hard for people to comprehend day after day.
Did you have ever any recollection that your sense would change?
I mean, or was it like I'm expecting to knock
at the door and something's going to happen. Could you
(17:31):
could rather than stereotyping people's perception, if you don't mind.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
No, I didn't think I was going to come off
of that throw my warrant was actually signed or they
gave me an execution date to yeah, I got to stay.
I have really good lawyers that have fought and stood
by me, you know, to get me to work in GP. Now, Okay,
(17:56):
as where it stands now, I don't know what I'm looking.
I could go back to death row. They could resentence
me back to death, or I could get life, or
they could plead me. I don't know what's going to happen.
I pray for the best, prepare for the worst.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
But thank you, and just for our listeners, you're in
that transition now, you're just not sure. As you said
you were on death row, you know, and when you
mentioned GP for our listeners, it's general population, thank you,
and so you're in you're with general population with the
other women, but as you've mentioned, you don't know there's
(18:32):
a recensing in.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Which that could be. That's correct, Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
So Now in general population, Michelle, what is your experience
like and well, what has it been like.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
When I first came down, it was scary just being
secluded for so long away from everybody in that but
I'm just safe. I can honestly, Like a lot of
people say it's scary, which it is scary, it's not
so much now. I don't label this as home, but
it is my home because I don't know what the
(19:08):
future is going to bring. I'm not going to say
that I'm content being here, but I make the best
of every day. You know, I have two jobs, which
I love very much. I like to do what I do.
I've done some groups. I mainly say to myself, I
stay in my room, watch my TV, play on my tablet.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Yes, Michelle, when you talk about your jobs, would you
be able to tell us what are your jobs?
Speaker 3 (19:41):
I'm a unit detail on our unit. I do the
unit detail where I do the laundry and clean the unit,
the showers, the floors and everything. And then I work
at admissions that's where their intakes are they bring their
intakes in from outside and I do all the cleaning
and stuff over there. Anything they need me to do,
I do over their stock everything and clean.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
And is that like Monday to Friday? I'm staring.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
My detail is Monday through Friday on the unit and
then I work Monday, Wednesday and Friday at admissions. But
I'm on call all five days or if they need
me Tuesdays or Thursdays, I work there too, right.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Reflecting on the trauma over the years that you had enjured,
particularly as a child, since you've been here in Sei
Munsey in general population, do you have a counselor or
a psychologist or people that are around you to help
you work constantly through your past trauma.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Could you share a little bit about that.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
I've been on medication since I've came here. When I
was a county, when I was arrested, I was put
on medication for different things that I have going on.
Within like the last two and a half years, I've
gotten off the medicine to where, like me, working keeps
my off out of my head and keeps me busy
to where I don't think about things that are out
(21:04):
of my control. But I do have a great support system.
I have staff on the unit that are there if
I need to talk to them, and then if I
need to see a psychologist psychiatrist, I have them as
well that I can see in that I see them
every thirty days and I see and I see somebody
on my unit weekly.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Right, thank you.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
The other things that you do other than the detailing,
what programs have you participated in over there?
Speaker 3 (21:37):
I've done several groups.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Would you like to share some with us?
Speaker 3 (21:40):
What have you done? I've done thinking Positive for a change.
I've done that. I've done adapt and overcome. That's when
I came off the row. I came down and did that,
from transitioning from death row to general population. I've done
Living Safely for Women science prevention.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Could you choose one or two of those and explain
for end listeners what it entails.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
The Living Safely for Women I just completed, and that
was mainly to live better and make better choices with yourself,
not only for yourself, but your surroundings and the people
that you're around, and like to think in a different
light than what you like what I did before, to
(22:29):
see things differently, and I learned a lot from it.
I got a lot from it and the adapt and
overcome that I did. The group that I did was
a lot of letting go of things that are not
longer in my control. I held on to a lot
for a long time and I learned to be able
(22:50):
to let go of it.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, Michelle, death, dying, aging. I know
that sounds awful to say, but do you ever think
about not just aging in the prison system, but the
death and dying considering your journey?
Speaker 3 (23:09):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Yeah, Are you able to share a little bit about
any thoughts on that.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
There's a lot that I would like to say to
a lot of people, and you, M h before that
day would come. But I've made peace m Yes. And
(23:50):
at the end of the day, Yeah, I know what
I did and didn't Yes, And God knows, I've always
been the time to where I wanted everybody's approval and
wanted people to like me.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
In that.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
I know I'm not the person that people would make
me up to me. I've made mistakes, big.
Speaker 5 (24:24):
Ones, and if I could take it back, I would,
But I know if I would die today or tomorrow,
I've made peace with them myself. Yes, Yeah, I can't
say really about it.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Thank you, Michelle. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Yeah, we have a few minutes left, Michelle. And it's
a journey that you've traveled looking back to where you
are today. Is there a message or you've just summarized
exactly you know way you.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Feel at this stage.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Is there anything that you would like to share with
our listeners about the Michelle that they don't know about
but you want them to know about.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
That I'm not a bad person, but I have good qualities,
and that I was young and I made mistakes and
I regret those mistakes. I would just like to say
that people should get to know people for them and
not what they hear what they read. To really get
(25:41):
to know them, you might be surprised at what you
see or what you you know you find out about
them because you can't always judge a book by its cover.
You can't.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Michelle. I would like to say thank you so much much.
It's been a very intense conversation and I can't thank
you enough for having the courage and strength to talk
us through your journey.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
And I wish you all the best.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
And this is not the last time you'll see of me, Michelle,
So I'm warning you now. Thank you so much, thank you,
Michelle be much having me our pleasure.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
Thank you, thank you, thank you for joining us on
another episode of Self Identities Conversations with Convicted Women, a
Flying Possums production in association with Nutter Productions. We deeply
(26:50):
appreciate the support of our listeners and the contributions from
everyone who has made this podcast possible. Your engagement and
encouragement drive us to continue these important conversations until next time.
Take care,
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