January 21, 2025 • 38 mins
Join Dr. Kathryn Whiteley and AJ Nutter in an eye-opening exploration of the lives of women serving life sentences for murder. Drawing from nearly 20 years of criminological research in maximum-security prisons across Ireland, Australia, Pennsylvania, and Texas, Dr. Whiteley shares insights into the complex realities behind the crimes. Moving beyond the surface of motive and crime, this season delves into the lived experiences of these women—examining their childhoods, adult lives, and incarceration stories. Together, Kathryn and AJ challenge societal perceptions, revealing that these women are far more than their convictions.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
We'd like to acknowledge for our listeners just upfront that
what you will hear from individual incarcerated women throughout the
episode you may find to be emotionally charged and even disturbing.
So we just want to acknowledge that and make you
aware of that. Furthermore, something that listeners probably don't realize
(00:22):
is that all of our individual conversations with each woman
was recorded inside a maximum security prison, the State Correctional
Institution SCI Munsey in Pennsylvania here in the United States.
So the noise, there's any chatter, anything in the background.
(00:44):
For our listeners, just to understand that we actually recorded
inside a prison where the day goes on. The women,
the officers, the staff, they all have their jobs. Just
because we're there, it doesn't stop or everything becomes quiet.
So if you do, as listens here on your background noise,
please understand that is part of being inside a prison.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Welcome to Season two of Self Identities, the podcast where
we explore stories, experiences, and perspective shaping women facing life sentences.
My name is A. J. Nutter and I'm the director
and co producer of the podcast, and I'm thrilled to
kick off this season with a truly impactful conversation. Today,
(01:38):
we are coming to you from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania to discuss
the lives of incarcerated women and the challenges they face
within the criminal justice system. Joining me is my co
producer and host of the podcast, Doctor Catherine Whiteley. She
is a leading expert in the field of criminology whose
transformative work with the women at SCI Munsey provides a
(01:59):
unique lens into their identities, struggles, and resilience. This episode
is kicking off point for the new season and we'll
be talking about personal transformation and the importance of understanding
stories that too often go untold. So, Doctor, how are
you doing to that?
Speaker 1 (02:17):
I'm doing great, Thank you, aj and welcome to season two.
Isn't this wonderful?
Speaker 2 (02:22):
This is very exciting. When we first started this journey,
I never thought we would be continuing it, honestly, and
like the way that things have kind of unfolded. Sure,
would you mind talking a little bit about how you
feel about season two of the podcasts and how'd that
go for us? We went this past summer up to
SCI monthcy it was exciting.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
It was exciting. So if we take a step back,
so over twelve months ago. As you say, we produced
the first podcast series of ten women and many of
those women I had never met and you had certainly
not met. And then kindly enough, we were given permission,
and I must say, we're very, very grateful, and it's
a privilege that we were trusted and permitted to enter
(03:03):
again sci Muncie, the women's maxim security prison here in
Pennsylvania in the United States, and individually engage with another
ten women serving life and life without paroles. So we've
had two years of going through this journey. But as
I said, we're both no doubt very grateful. It is
a privilege to be permitted to enter a maximum security
(03:24):
prison and produced from inside ag And I think that
is part of the uniqueness of what we're doing, because
some people have said to me about, well, you sit,
you know, at home or somewhere and then the women
ring in or vice versa. But we're not. We're actually
you know, our environment, the people around us, the day
goes on. We're in a maximum security prison for women,
(03:46):
so nothing stops us. I've mentioned previously, but you know,
we have this opportunity. It's wonderful, it really is.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Yeah, truly, it was. It was fantastic to be able
to be welcome back to the prison, you know, helping
us really along with the project and being such a
great hand.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Absolutely, and I think we should again acknowledge the Pennsylvania
Department of Corrections SCI MUNCI superintendent and senior administrators, as
well as everyone else that works there that made us
feel so welcome and not forgetting the ten women that
volunteered to participate in this conversation. And I think that's
something else to share with our listeners is that each
(04:23):
woman volunteers, there's no pressure for them to participate. There's
no money or money's exchange, no gifts, no guarantees. So
each of these women past and present, they really put
a lot of faith or trust in us to be
that platform for them to share their message through their voices. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Absolutely. And the interesting thing too, going back a second
year now, one of the interesting viewpoints of this is
that the ten women we interviewed this summer really didn't
know you as well as from like season one. So
what was that perspective for you going in to some
of those conversations that feel different? Was it more challenging?
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Thanks? AJ? And that's an interesting point because again, not knowing.
Except for one woman this cohort, it wasn't a feeling
of anxiousness, but it's something like I wasn't quite sure
what to expect. Would it would our conversation roll or
move smoothly? You know, because when you think about it,
(05:29):
these nine out of ten women in this you know,
the second series, you know, all they had heard a
little bit about me through other women, no doubt in
carcerated Jesse I Muncie. But it was a big risk
for them to take. So for me, I think I
had to just step back a little bit and I
won't say be gentle, but just be who I am,
(05:50):
acknowledged that they're vulnerable, they had not met me before,
and just go with the flow. And I know that
sounds very basic, but I think something's just come natural,
and you know, so that's what happened with the women.
And as everyone will hear each of these women, there
are moments that there's pauses, there stops because it does
(06:13):
become emotional or they realize, my gosh, I'm giving all
this personal information out to a complete stranger or someone
i'd heard about, you know, from women around me. But
it was amazing. So again I wasn't quite sure what
to expect, but I'm always very positive, like you, you
(06:34):
know what I mean, whatever will be will be, and
you just go with the flow. And that's what we
did and again and I was very grateful it worked
out well, and we do have some feedback from some
of the ladies at the end, we can talk about it.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Yeah, And I think it's part of the interesting perspective
of this is it is very raw that like a
lot of the stuff is just a conversation back and
forth and nothing is like pre planned with questions for
that specific individual. A lot of it is just free
flowing in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
I think that's really important again to reiterate that, you know,
none of these women had questions in front of them,
or I didn't meet with them beforehand and sit down
one on one, or it's a group session to say
this is what I'm going to ask you. You know,
there was an general overview when they consented that we're
going to be talking about your childhood through to your youth,
young adult, adulthood, past and present, now incarceration as well,
(07:24):
So none of them had pre planned questions. And again,
it was a it was an amazing humbling experience sitting
there not knowing where a conversation was going to go.
And I like, aj how you mentioned it was a conversation.
This was an interrogation or an interview with the women.
That's why you know, we have called our podcast self
(07:46):
Identities Conversations with Convicted Women.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Yeah, and this was really a great opportunity to come
back with new eyes and kind of some fresh topics
for this year, which I think is always a really
interesting part of this is like what whether the conversation
is gonna where we're going to talk about We talked
about We covered some really broad topics like, for instance,
we talked to Jamie who is a younger woman in
(08:09):
the prison, and we talked a little bit about growing
up with technology and media, what you know, different aspects
that we didn't really cover before. You might speak in
a little bit about.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
That, Oh, I'd love to so. In our earlier series,
we had a young woman, Jessica, who was sixteen and
charged as an adult and sentenced and is serving thirty
five years plus in the prison today now. Jessica at
the time took us through about the loss more about
losses of things that or understanding that one day when
(08:42):
she is out, She'll have to learn to drive a car,
She'll have to learn how to use a credit card,
different things like that. Jessica focused on when she was
entering the prison system at sixteen and she lost all
that youth. So that was her focus about now, you know,
in years to come, being released one day and having
to go back and start understanding the norms what we
(09:05):
do day to day in our household or out on
the street. So that was Jessica's focus at sixteen. However,
this series, we have a conversation with Jamie. Now, Jamie
was just over fourteen nearly fifteen when she entered the
Pennsylvania prison system. Jamie also was charged as an adult,
(09:26):
so her sensing overall, other than a very short period
in County jail, was in a women's maximum security prison
here at Seo, Muncie. So Jamie, it's very interesting her
discussion because she was fourteen fifteen, her discussion really focuses
on her early teens up until the time she was incarcerated.
(09:47):
About the bullying. Well, first, and I'll take a step back,
the social media and the impact of a young girl
her identity.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
It's like day and age, which is a really interesting
perspective when you think about the social media implcations.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
It is, and that's what she focused on a little
bit about. And she talks about the you know, the
self image and how important it is on social media.
You know you're ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen year old young
girl or you know, and you know, if you don't
fit a certain style or look a certain way, you know.
She talked a bit about that and how she believed
she didn't you know, fit in or look the way
(10:23):
that many others on social media suggest you should. The
other piece to that is that also she said, there
was so much on social media bullying because of as
I said, you know, your identity has to be out
hypothetically one way as opposed to another when you're going
you know, when you were such a young girl going
through those teenage years. So I found it was very
(10:43):
interesting from hearing from Jessica in our first series talk
about you know, having to adapt when she is released,
about things she lost, not just family, but about as
I said, the day to day routines where Jamie going
in so young. It was very very interesting and a
great conversation from her about how she went through her
(11:06):
life with the bullying and the impact of social media,
and I think it's a great lesson. She talks about
her experience, but also offering younger people when they do
listen to her in the podcast. You know, she talks
about what she went through and she hopes that others don't,
you know, young girls don't. So that was an interest
(11:27):
that was a contrast between the two. And there are
other things we talked about to AJ that we didn't
mention or have women talk about in the first series.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Sure. Yeah. One of the big things that we learned
last year when we were at the prison, or at
least I did, because I was new to visiting the prison,
was that there was actually a veterans unit and a
veterans house, which turns out is very unique and from
what I understand, the only one in the country for
women that has housed here in Pennsylvania. So we actually
(11:54):
had the opportunity to talk with Dorothy, who was a
nurse during the Vietnam War who stays in the Veteran house,
and that was such an interesting perspective and interesting person
to hear from that you typically weren't you know, hear
from normally. Would you mind speaking a little about it.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
I'd love to and and Dorothy loves to talk, and
she'd loved me to say that too. She was amazing
talking to Dorothy. Dorothy she not just talked about her
childhood and that, but she also talked about when the
time came to think about a career, you know, better education.
She became a nurse, and then she she was deployed
(12:31):
to Vietnam, and she does talk which you know, from
one extreme to the other. She does talk about the
loss of life and colleagues nurses around her, one losing
her life, another losing a limb, and then and she
was the one person that remained shall we say, physically
whole when she came back. She talks a little bit
about the PTSD and the suffering there, and I think
(12:55):
we forget about that. And as you said, veterans programs
are so important around the country. So you know, we
have one here in Sei Muncie in Pennsylvania, which is wonderful.
And she does talk from her experience of being a woman,
a nurse in the Vietnam War and then now being
(13:15):
incarcerated all those years later, and so she talks about
that journey too, and it does impact you sitting there listening.
You know, it's hard not to get emotional. Absolutely, it's
hard for all these women, but you know, for what
she endured at that time of her life and then
now incarcerated something. Also, you know, you always have the
(13:37):
question about a woman that saw so much horrific or
so many horrific events or experienced that whilst in Vietnam
and then comes back and then you ask what happened?
Because how could that be a person that endured so
much in a war then comes back and is a perpetrator.
(13:58):
So there's always those questions, you know, so how does
it happen? So she talks a bit about that too,
so amazing conversation and again something she's a woman that
speaks about her past and present experience. And as you mentioned,
aj is housed in the Veterans Facility at SA months,
(14:18):
which is wonderful.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Wow, it was really it was nice to hear a
little insight to what the Veteran Facility is and like
how it operates and the stuff that they do the
help the community is. It was very uplifting here.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Another conversation we had was with Brenda, who had some
really interesting perspective of how she grew up in the
South with like racism. Oh yes, yeah, that was a
really unique conversation too.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Yes, and you know, Aj, we have had a couple
of women in the past touch a little bit about that,
but no one is specific I suppose as Brenda, because
she talks about, you know, her childhood, and that was
really part of our conversation, isn't it with this podcast
going back to for the women to go back as
far as they can remember about the childhood. And she
delves into a little bit about the racism that she
(15:05):
and her siblings experienced when living whilst living in the South,
and something that comes to mind. She talks a bit
about it, how certain they were very poor, Well they
were poor, I'll say. And she talks about how her
clothing and going to school and sometimes you know how kids,
children would comment about something she wore, and she specifically
(15:25):
talks a bit about her shoes and she thought at
the time, as a little girl, the chatter around it
and the saying certain things to her was more of
a compliment, but it was really it was really quite
racist and she didn't know, you know, I mean, as
a child, And she talks and touches on the bullying there.
But also she mentions too, and it's really interesting. She
(15:48):
said her and siblings when they would go shopping with
their mother, mother asked them to stay in the car
so they wouldn't be hur harm, defended, et cetera. So
it's very interesting. But you know, she is the person
that shares the amazing story there, and unfortunately it impacted
(16:09):
her as she got older, you know, going to school
she was young, and she said there were certain slurs
and things said to her and she thought again it
was a compliment and realized it wasn't. But it also
later on she said she started withdrawal from school and
didn't like that, and originally she loved it, you know,
so I think getting a perspective from it, you know,
when she was a child growing up.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
It's fascinating, difficult time and place.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Absolutely, and yet you know, when you hear her talk,
she's such a positive woman. And she does share in
her conversation that not everyone was like this living in
the South, so again, you know, but a very up
positive person.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
One of the really amazing things this season that we
were able to cover was we were able to speak
with three women who were on death row, which was
pretty amazing because I think originally we only thought we
were going to have one person that was going to
have that experience, and we actually were able to get three,
which was just like a really unique lens into that
(17:07):
world where probably a lot of people don't know what
that looks like.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
You know, that's true, that's true. So what we did,
we had, as you mentioned, conversations with three women. First woman,
if i'll share, her name is Beth, and she spent
five years on death row. There was Shonda, she spent
approximately eleven years on death row, and Michelle spent fourteen
years on death row. Yeah, but what's really interesting again,
(17:33):
that was part of our conversation. I took the women
back and as you'll hear in their podcast, they speak
about their childhood. Some were victimized, some weren't. And we
must always acknowledge that that not all these women had
a life or a childhood of victimization or trauma. They're few,
but many, you know, but there are some women that didn't.
So when we think about Beth and she, as I said,
(17:54):
she talks about her childhood. But it's very interesting because
as we know, here in the United States county jail,
we have a state prison, and what was happening with
all these women. Of course, they first entered a county jail,
then they went to the state prison, which housed the
death row. And that's what we have here in Pennsylvania.
(18:14):
We still have the house, we still have death row,
even though at this moment the executions have been placed
on hold. So interesting conversation, and I think what's really
key is that how the women talk about their day
to day routine on death row and losses as well,
what they could and couldn't do. But then they compare
it to GP, which is general population. So what was
(18:38):
the experience like being on death row for like five, eleven,
fourteen years and now you're in general population and you're
serving a life without parole. So it's very interesting to
hear what was experienced with one and you know, now
in general population and.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
The variations of that. Because one of the heavier conversations
we have ever had was with Michelle. She spoke about
being the last woman on death row in Pennsylvania and
being in isolation for two years within that that's right,
and then coming back to a police being in general population,
like obviously that affects you, It does being withdrawn so
long from other people is just really interesting to hear
(19:18):
her perspective on.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
That it is, and for all the women having to
navigate not just being sentenced and then as I said,
entering county slash state prison, but death row within state prison,
and then being able to then having to I should say,
navigate general population. You know what I mean. It's well
put this way. I can't talk too much about it
(19:41):
because they say it the best. Each woman has her
own interpretation of that. But fascinating to have three women
that were sentenced on death row.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
And we covered some other similar issues like we did
in the prior season, but the loss of being a
parent is always one that comes up, or the possibility
of I could have been a parent.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
That's right. We talked to Trisha in this episode, and
there are other women as well, and she talks about how,
you know, she's in her mid twenties and left behind
her eighteen month old son, and she specifically shares more
about the relationship with her old with her son now
who is older, and the challenges, the ongoing challenges about
(20:24):
her being sentenced to life, and then of course, you know,
the challenges include the relationship or the complexities of their
relationship and also others around her, you know, because someone
had to raise her eighteen month old child, you know,
so very in depth and a loss for all. You know,
there's that ripple effect because it's not just a woman
(20:45):
that's inside. There are people on the outside that suffer too.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
That's right. And then of course we came back around
to personal victimization and trauma, which was we ran to
quite a bit with season one, a little bit less
of this season, but it's still a big part of
the incarceration experience.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Absolutely, and some of the women, not all, but some
of the women in this series do talk about childhood victimization, rape,
you know, from someone usually that they know or have known,
and that trauma, that victimization. You know, there's bullying, there's
you know, domestic violence, there's emotional there's all these different
(21:26):
types of violence that the women talk about that they experienced,
but sadly, that violence, well, that trauma is carried through
to their incarceration. But there are we're happy to say,
in most prisons there are or state prisons, there are
programs that are there for the women, and some of
(21:46):
the women speak about that too. That certain programs have
helped them work through their trauma. Doesn't mean that it's
left them or it's going to go away, but it's
eased or eased some of their pain or helped them
manage sentence.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
It's nice to see hear the insight into that and
just like all the different variations of that for each
woman and what programs they took and what worked for
them and what helped them and what did.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
I think that's so true, AJ, because sometimes we seem
to think that they get nothing, but some of the
women will will share with us that no, we do
have certain programs you know that helps.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Us, and some of them have the fight to get
into them.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
They do mention that as well and as well, and again, AG,
I think it's always important for our listeners around the world,
because we know this goes around the world. Is that
here in the United States, life you know, does mean
life with an appeal, but that doesn't mean you'll be
released and life without parole. We have a large number
of women throughout the United States that will never ever
(22:46):
be released. So you know, it's significant to remind people
about the differences in sentencing within other Westernized countries of women.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
One thing that came up this season that we didn't
really touch on last season, that I wanted to talk
to your perspective about how legacy media views these women
without speaking to them and writing for them. That was
a really great typic that came up a couple of times.
Do you mind talking a little bit about that?
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Sure? You know, And in our conversation i'd ask them
about ask each well, many of the women I should
say their thoughts on media, you know, and not putting
words into their mouth saying did it sensationalize you? But
how for them to comment about their belief of how
they were portrayed. And now some of these women have
(23:33):
already been in the system twenty thirty forty years, so
media certainly has changed since then. But overall it was
their response was more negative, was very negative as opposed
to positive, because as many of the women have shared
the media and I'm just generalizing, I'm not wanting to
(23:53):
put anything out there and say that, you know, it's
a blanket statement, but the women had shared that literally,
come talk to us, see us, speak to us before
you start writing your stories, you know, like what we're doing.
Get to know us a little bit. Don't send a survey,
don't send a questionnaire in, don't bring me up and
say hey, I'm going to write a story about you
(24:14):
on the phone, and you know, we never hear from
you again. So there's that separation of when it comes
to the women and who they really are and often
what the media or the sensationalizing of the women within
the media, and the women talk a bit about that,
but not all experiences were the same because again, we
(24:35):
have women that have been in there for a short
period of time. We've got women that have been in
the system that we've interviewed or had conversations with after
fifty two years. So media has changed, but it wasn't
positive within their eyes or the experience that they had had.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Yeah, and kind of bringing the conversation back around as
this was, you know, our second year doing this. What
has changed for you since doing the first season? Like
what was different for you for this perspective going back
up and heading back in the month, see was it
similar to the last season or have things progressed differently
in your research recently?
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Right, Thanks for asking that, and I think even possibly
with yourself the first time going into the prison system,
and again it was first for both of us doing
a podcast or producing podcast. Again, you're just not sure
how things will go, like will a woman, will a
woman want to turn up because again they had the
right not to. Would you know, would that be one
(25:32):
woman less that we're going to have a conversation with.
Would a woman at that stage want to talk about
certain things? Or would would it be a very quiet
conversation and not much happening interaction? I think, do not think.
I do believe the second time, going to sc on Muncy,
we were more prepared in the sense of understanding what
(25:53):
to expect, possibly what not, but conversations with each of
the women we like. As you understand, we really did
stick to what we set out to do by you
across the board, from the first ten women through to
what we completed in the second session, we stuck to
the same questions, the basics. And again I think this
(26:17):
time around, you know, I've learned to pull back a
little bit because I love to have a great conversation
with them. But again, you know, I think it's just learning,
keep pulling back a little bit and letting the women
have agency, empowering each woman, learning to empower each woman
by giving them more of the mic, you know what.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
I mean, platform to share what they want to share.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Absolutely, So I think there was always in the back
of my mind. I don't know if it worked or not,
because as has said, I'm a chatterbox, and once I
get going with the women, I love love of chatters,
you know, AJ. But again, I think it's just a
learning curve about every time I went in, it's like
pulling back a little bit and letting them feel more
empowered to have the platform to speak. I also again,
(27:00):
you know, going in the second time, you know, every
woman has a unique story. We say there are similarities, absolutely,
and we get asked, don't we AJ, Well, what do
you find is similar Well, it happens though some of
the women have been victimized, some have some don't like
the meals they're being served or whichever or something. You know,
they talk about losses and dying and death. But overall,
(27:23):
each woman has a unique piece of their story that
I think we're able to draw out no matter what
it is. But no, I think second time, going through,
I think I was very excited, AJ. I think I
was enthusiastic, like yourself, not knowing what to anticipate. But
that makes it special as well.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Yeah, it's a very unique experience, and like it's really
hard to describe when you're in the room in the
prison and you're recording with them, Like it's very emotional,
it's very intimate, and there's a certain I don't know,
there's just like a certain energy to it, and a
lot of these women have never been in front of
a microphone ever in their lives, and it's just such
like a a foreign experience also in that sense, you know.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
I think that's something again for anyone that's listening, think
about sitting at a table in a very sparse room,
you know, like in a small room, and you know,
you're there, I'm there in particularly meeting women for the
first time, and you know, put the head set on
or put you you know, whichever and sitting there and
they're not sure what to anticipate. So you're right, it's
(28:26):
it's a very interesting environment and I think you just
have to be very gentle whatever that means, but just
be very gentle in the moment with the women because again,
for many of them, they will share that they were
really nervous. They weren't sure what was going to be
asked or how they would sound. But I do have
some feedback afterwards we can have a chat about because
(28:49):
we have a couple of letters we could read out
and they gave us some feedback, which we've asked to
do that it was just a feeling, so we may
be able to read those out shortly. But yeah, I
just think each woman it was a surreal experience, particularly
for them. And when you think about it, AJ, we
have the control of what's going to be broadcast or
(29:12):
you know out on this podcast. The women don't have
the chance to review it, listen to it whatever, in
order to make changes. Yeah, we do allow and I
know you were wonderful in making this happen that we
negotiated and worked out with the prison sci muncy that
(29:33):
each woman could hear. So would you like to share
what do you think of.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
That's it's great so as you could imagine, one of
the challenges of being an inmate in a correctional facility
is you don't have access to things on the outside,
such as the internet or podcasting. So we wanted to
make sure that every woman could hear back their episode
as we had a rough at it, just so they
(29:57):
could hear themselves hear what they say, said, give us
any feedback and also let's know if there were comfortable
with certain things, if we should remove it or just
to give them that peace of mind. And it's really
interesting because we do this and we can we get
to see the reaction as they are listening to it,
and that's also really powerful in itself.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
I think that was I think that's the biggest thing.
As I said, these women one, you know, would come
into a room when we were letting them or not
letting them, when they were being permitted to hear their voices.
You know, one woman would sit at this table and
they'd see us on the screen and they'd hear the
conversation and just observing them. As you said, Aj, there
(30:41):
were moments I had to hold back tears. There were
moments it was emotional because the woman in front of
us from the distance, you know, in the prison and
here we are sitting in my home and we're you know,
we're sharing with them. They're recording watching individual women try
not to show that they're getting emotional or reaching for
(31:01):
something to wipe their eyes or you know, wriggling and
putting their head down when they were hearing their own words.
It was so powerful, and I think that was something
If anyone said to me what was something powerful and special,
I would say it would have been the moments that
each woman heard themselves speak.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Yeah, and that most of them have never had that
experience of hearing themselves on a recording. You know it.
It is very powerful, I think.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
AJ. We've got a couple of letters here, I really do. Yes,
if you want to read out, this is great. So
we've got some letters here. There's a couple there. Well,
I've got all start anyway. So what we did is
ask for women and they all did, which was wonderful,
and we just selected a few here, just some feedback
(31:48):
how they felt after you know, a week or two
after producing the podcast, after them having a conversation, how
do they actually feel, you know, when they heard their
own voice. So I can certainly start with one age
a life. Yeah. So you know, all these letters always
(32:08):
start by dear doctor Whiteley or doctor Kate and AJ.
So we won't get into that, but every letter says that,
and they're very very kind and they share many things.
But I've just pulled a few sentences, a few lines
from that. So this is Brenda and she said, you know,
hello and greetings, and then she said these are her words. Now,
(32:29):
I thought the podcast interview went very well. She shares
that these are her words. You are a pro at
what you do. I felt very comfortable during the interview.
While listening to myself, I felt like I was listening
to someone else's story. I can't believe how emotional I became.
(32:51):
I would do it again in a heartbeat. It was great.
So that was Brendan she talks for. But I just
looked a couple of little pieces there. So this is
from Beth. Now in Beth's podcast too, she had Frazzle
the dog, so we always mentioned that there's any noises,
It was Frazzle. So this is from ute. Oh so cute.
(33:15):
This is from Beth and Frazzle because she said he
said to say hi, So it has Dear Dr Whitelein Aj. First,
I want to thank you for allowing me to take
part in your podcast. I must admit in the beginning
I was very nervous, but once hearing the segment, I
was very pleased. You made me feel at ease and
(33:38):
I feel like I conveyed my story very well. I
am hopeful that it touches someone or even helps someone
who's experienced some of the things that I have. The
experience was very freeing and healing for me. The work
(33:58):
you do on our behalf is a ma You help
to let us know we are not forgotten and that
we matter. I'm very grateful, and that's from Beth and Frassele.
So this is so important because again, it's not about
us and what we did, it's about hearing that how
it impacted these women. So here is a letter from Evon.
(34:22):
She said it was nice seeing us, which many of
the women have said was lovely. I want you to
know that I really really enjoyed listening to myself on
the podcast now, and I'm going to say this to everyone.
Eyvon is a hohot. She really is a funny because
her next sentence is I did an excellent job and
(34:43):
I know others will appreciate it too. I was completely
satisfied with all that I shared. I experienced different feelings
throughout those thirty minutes. The sadness of losing many family
members throughout the year, not being able to raise my son,
(35:05):
and the crime I committed which affected so many people.
I was also proud of myself because for many years
I refused to share anything. Today, I'm willing to open up,
extend myself and share my experience with others. Maybe, just
(35:29):
maybe it will change their lives. I believe it will
benefit so many as they try to adjust to the
new environment. It will motivate and inspire them, giving them
the strength they need throughout their sentence. Some of what
I shared before my incarceration will allow others to see
(35:52):
they are not alone. If they were through or currently
going through trauma or traumatic experiences, it's possible to overcome them. Overall,
I'm happy and pleased with the outcome of my podcast.
I'm also looking forward to hearing everyone who shared. And
(36:12):
then she thanks us Evon. I mean that is some
let That is some of the letters we receive from
the women. But again, just acknowledging for some was therapeutic.
Like her, she hadn't spoken about things, and she said
I was able to do that. That's amazing, And think
about she did that with strangers.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Yeah, that's the most amazing thing about this too, is
just like that. Willingness to open up is a real
difficult thing to do.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
It is, and I think over time, trust and respect
go a long way.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
So thank you. For joining us for this insightful episode
of Self Identities. A huge thank you to doctor Catherine
Whiteley for sharing her expertise and shedding light on the
stories and experiences the women at Sci Munci. As we
continue to explore the complexities of identity and the human experience,
we hope this conversation inspires you to think deeply and
(37:12):
challenge perspectives. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe,
leave a review, and share with others who might benefit
from these powerful discussions. Follow us on social media for updates,
and feel free to reach out with your thoughts. We'd
love to hear from you. Until next time, I'm Adan
Nutter reminding you to embrace the stories that shape all
(37:32):
of us, Stay curious, stay compassionate, and we'll see you
back here soon for more self identities. Thank you, Thank
(37:54):
you for joining us on another episode of Self Identities
Conversations with Convicted Women, a Flying Possums production in association
with Nutter Productions. We deeply appreciate the support of our
listeners and the contributions from everyone who has made this
podcast possible. Your engagement and encouragement drive us to continue
(38:18):
these important conversations. Until next time, take care
We'd like to acknowledge for our listeners just upfront that
what you will hear from individual incarcerated women throughout the
episode you may find to be emotionally charged and even disturbing.
So we just want to acknowledge that and make you
aware of that. Furthermore, something that listeners probably don't realize
(00:22):
is that all of our individual conversations with each woman
was recorded inside a maximum security prison, the State Correctional
Institution SCI Munsey in Pennsylvania here in the United States.
So the noise, there's any chatter, anything in the background.
(00:44):
For our listeners, just to understand that we actually recorded
inside a prison where the day goes on. The women,
the officers, the staff, they all have their jobs. Just
because we're there, it doesn't stop or everything becomes quiet.
So if you do, as listens here on your background noise,
please understand that is part of being inside a prison.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Welcome to Season two of Self Identities, the podcast where
we explore stories, experiences, and perspective shaping women facing life sentences.
My name is A. J. Nutter and I'm the director
and co producer of the podcast, and I'm thrilled to
kick off this season with a truly impactful conversation. Today,
(01:38):
we are coming to you from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania to discuss
the lives of incarcerated women and the challenges they face
within the criminal justice system. Joining me is my co
producer and host of the podcast, Doctor Catherine Whiteley. She
is a leading expert in the field of criminology whose
transformative work with the women at SCI Munsey provides a
(01:59):
unique lens into their identities, struggles, and resilience. This episode
is kicking off point for the new season and we'll
be talking about personal transformation and the importance of understanding
stories that too often go untold. So, Doctor, how are
you doing to that?
Speaker 1 (02:17):
I'm doing great, Thank you, aj and welcome to season two.
Isn't this wonderful?
Speaker 2 (02:22):
This is very exciting. When we first started this journey,
I never thought we would be continuing it, honestly, and
like the way that things have kind of unfolded. Sure,
would you mind talking a little bit about how you
feel about season two of the podcasts and how'd that
go for us? We went this past summer up to
SCI monthcy it was exciting.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
It was exciting. So if we take a step back,
so over twelve months ago. As you say, we produced
the first podcast series of ten women and many of
those women I had never met and you had certainly
not met. And then kindly enough, we were given permission,
and I must say, we're very, very grateful, and it's
a privilege that we were trusted and permitted to enter
(03:03):
again sci Muncie, the women's maxim security prison here in
Pennsylvania in the United States, and individually engage with another
ten women serving life and life without paroles. So we've
had two years of going through this journey. But as
I said, we're both no doubt very grateful. It is
a privilege to be permitted to enter a maximum security
(03:24):
prison and produced from inside ag And I think that
is part of the uniqueness of what we're doing, because
some people have said to me about, well, you sit,
you know, at home or somewhere and then the women
ring in or vice versa. But we're not. We're actually
you know, our environment, the people around us, the day
goes on. We're in a maximum security prison for women,
(03:46):
so nothing stops us. I've mentioned previously, but you know,
we have this opportunity. It's wonderful, it really is.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Yeah, truly, it was. It was fantastic to be able
to be welcome back to the prison, you know, helping
us really along with the project and being such a
great hand.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Absolutely, and I think we should again acknowledge the Pennsylvania
Department of Corrections SCI MUNCI superintendent and senior administrators, as
well as everyone else that works there that made us
feel so welcome and not forgetting the ten women that
volunteered to participate in this conversation. And I think that's
something else to share with our listeners is that each
(04:23):
woman volunteers, there's no pressure for them to participate. There's
no money or money's exchange, no gifts, no guarantees. So
each of these women past and present, they really put
a lot of faith or trust in us to be
that platform for them to share their message through their voices. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Absolutely. And the interesting thing too, going back a second
year now, one of the interesting viewpoints of this is
that the ten women we interviewed this summer really didn't
know you as well as from like season one. So
what was that perspective for you going in to some
of those conversations that feel different? Was it more challenging?
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Thanks? AJ? And that's an interesting point because again, not knowing.
Except for one woman this cohort, it wasn't a feeling
of anxiousness, but it's something like I wasn't quite sure
what to expect. Would it would our conversation roll or
move smoothly? You know, because when you think about it,
(05:29):
these nine out of ten women in this you know,
the second series, you know, all they had heard a
little bit about me through other women, no doubt in
carcerated Jesse I Muncie. But it was a big risk
for them to take. So for me, I think I
had to just step back a little bit and I
won't say be gentle, but just be who I am,
(05:50):
acknowledged that they're vulnerable, they had not met me before,
and just go with the flow. And I know that
sounds very basic, but I think something's just come natural,
and you know, so that's what happened with the women.
And as everyone will hear each of these women, there
are moments that there's pauses, there stops because it does
(06:13):
become emotional or they realize, my gosh, I'm giving all
this personal information out to a complete stranger or someone
i'd heard about, you know, from women around me. But
it was amazing. So again I wasn't quite sure what
to expect, but I'm always very positive, like you, you
(06:34):
know what I mean, whatever will be will be, and
you just go with the flow. And that's what we
did and again and I was very grateful it worked
out well, and we do have some feedback from some
of the ladies at the end, we can talk about it.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Yeah, And I think it's part of the interesting perspective
of this is it is very raw that like a
lot of the stuff is just a conversation back and
forth and nothing is like pre planned with questions for
that specific individual. A lot of it is just free
flowing in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
I think that's really important again to reiterate that, you know,
none of these women had questions in front of them,
or I didn't meet with them beforehand and sit down
one on one, or it's a group session to say
this is what I'm going to ask you. You know,
there was an general overview when they consented that we're
going to be talking about your childhood through to your youth,
young adult, adulthood, past and present, now incarceration as well,
(07:24):
So none of them had pre planned questions. And again,
it was a it was an amazing humbling experience sitting
there not knowing where a conversation was going to go.
And I like, aj how you mentioned it was a conversation.
This was an interrogation or an interview with the women.
That's why you know, we have called our podcast self
(07:46):
Identities Conversations with Convicted Women.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Yeah, and this was really a great opportunity to come
back with new eyes and kind of some fresh topics
for this year, which I think is always a really
interesting part of this is like what whether the conversation
is gonna where we're going to talk about We talked
about We covered some really broad topics like, for instance,
we talked to Jamie who is a younger woman in
(08:09):
the prison, and we talked a little bit about growing
up with technology and media, what you know, different aspects
that we didn't really cover before. You might speak in
a little bit about.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
That, Oh, I'd love to so. In our earlier series,
we had a young woman, Jessica, who was sixteen and
charged as an adult and sentenced and is serving thirty
five years plus in the prison today now. Jessica at
the time took us through about the loss more about
losses of things that or understanding that one day when
(08:42):
she is out, She'll have to learn to drive a car,
She'll have to learn how to use a credit card,
different things like that. Jessica focused on when she was
entering the prison system at sixteen and she lost all
that youth. So that was her focus about now, you know,
in years to come, being released one day and having
to go back and start understanding the norms what we
(09:05):
do day to day in our household or out on
the street. So that was Jessica's focus at sixteen. However,
this series, we have a conversation with Jamie. Now, Jamie
was just over fourteen nearly fifteen when she entered the
Pennsylvania prison system. Jamie also was charged as an adult,
(09:26):
so her sensing overall, other than a very short period
in County jail, was in a women's maximum security prison
here at Seo, Muncie. So Jamie, it's very interesting her
discussion because she was fourteen fifteen, her discussion really focuses
on her early teens up until the time she was incarcerated.
(09:47):
About the bullying. Well, first, and I'll take a step back,
the social media and the impact of a young girl
her identity.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
It's like day and age, which is a really interesting
perspective when you think about the social media implcations.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
It is, and that's what she focused on a little
bit about. And she talks about the you know, the
self image and how important it is on social media.
You know you're ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen year old young
girl or you know, and you know, if you don't
fit a certain style or look a certain way, you know.
She talked a bit about that and how she believed
she didn't you know, fit in or look the way
(10:23):
that many others on social media suggest you should. The
other piece to that is that also she said, there
was so much on social media bullying because of as
I said, you know, your identity has to be out
hypothetically one way as opposed to another when you're going
you know, when you were such a young girl going
through those teenage years. So I found it was very
(10:43):
interesting from hearing from Jessica in our first series talk
about you know, having to adapt when she is released,
about things she lost, not just family, but about as
I said, the day to day routines where Jamie going
in so young. It was very very interesting and a
great conversation from her about how she went through her
(11:06):
life with the bullying and the impact of social media,
and I think it's a great lesson. She talks about
her experience, but also offering younger people when they do
listen to her in the podcast. You know, she talks
about what she went through and she hopes that others don't,
you know, young girls don't. So that was an interest
(11:27):
that was a contrast between the two. And there are
other things we talked about to AJ that we didn't
mention or have women talk about in the first series.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Sure. Yeah. One of the big things that we learned
last year when we were at the prison, or at
least I did, because I was new to visiting the prison,
was that there was actually a veterans unit and a
veterans house, which turns out is very unique and from
what I understand, the only one in the country for
women that has housed here in Pennsylvania. So we actually
(11:54):
had the opportunity to talk with Dorothy, who was a
nurse during the Vietnam War who stays in the Veteran house,
and that was such an interesting perspective and interesting person
to hear from that you typically weren't you know, hear
from normally. Would you mind speaking a little about it.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
I'd love to and and Dorothy loves to talk, and
she'd loved me to say that too. She was amazing
talking to Dorothy. Dorothy she not just talked about her
childhood and that, but she also talked about when the
time came to think about a career, you know, better education.
She became a nurse, and then she she was deployed
(12:31):
to Vietnam, and she does talk which you know, from
one extreme to the other. She does talk about the
loss of life and colleagues nurses around her, one losing
her life, another losing a limb, and then and she
was the one person that remained shall we say, physically
whole when she came back. She talks a little bit
about the PTSD and the suffering there, and I think
(12:55):
we forget about that. And as you said, veterans programs
are so important around the country. So you know, we
have one here in Sei Muncie in Pennsylvania, which is wonderful.
And she does talk from her experience of being a woman,
a nurse in the Vietnam War and then now being
(13:15):
incarcerated all those years later, and so she talks about
that journey too, and it does impact you sitting there listening.
You know, it's hard not to get emotional. Absolutely, it's
hard for all these women, but you know, for what
she endured at that time of her life and then
now incarcerated something. Also, you know, you always have the
(13:37):
question about a woman that saw so much horrific or
so many horrific events or experienced that whilst in Vietnam
and then comes back and then you ask what happened?
Because how could that be a person that endured so
much in a war then comes back and is a perpetrator.
(13:58):
So there's always those questions, you know, so how does
it happen? So she talks a bit about that too,
so amazing conversation and again something she's a woman that
speaks about her past and present experience. And as you mentioned,
aj is housed in the Veterans Facility at SA months,
(14:18):
which is wonderful.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Wow, it was really it was nice to hear a
little insight to what the Veteran Facility is and like
how it operates and the stuff that they do the
help the community is. It was very uplifting here.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Another conversation we had was with Brenda, who had some
really interesting perspective of how she grew up in the
South with like racism. Oh yes, yeah, that was a
really unique conversation too.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Yes, and you know, Aj, we have had a couple
of women in the past touch a little bit about that,
but no one is specific I suppose as Brenda, because
she talks about, you know, her childhood, and that was
really part of our conversation, isn't it with this podcast
going back to for the women to go back as
far as they can remember about the childhood. And she
delves into a little bit about the racism that she
(15:05):
and her siblings experienced when living whilst living in the South,
and something that comes to mind. She talks a bit
about it, how certain they were very poor, Well they
were poor, I'll say. And she talks about how her
clothing and going to school and sometimes you know how kids,
children would comment about something she wore, and she specifically
(15:25):
talks a bit about her shoes and she thought at
the time, as a little girl, the chatter around it
and the saying certain things to her was more of
a compliment, but it was really it was really quite
racist and she didn't know, you know, I mean, as
a child, And she talks and touches on the bullying there.
But also she mentions too, and it's really interesting. She
(15:48):
said her and siblings when they would go shopping with
their mother, mother asked them to stay in the car
so they wouldn't be hur harm, defended, et cetera. So
it's very interesting. But you know, she is the person
that shares the amazing story there, and unfortunately it impacted
(16:09):
her as she got older, you know, going to school
she was young, and she said there were certain slurs
and things said to her and she thought again it
was a compliment and realized it wasn't. But it also
later on she said she started withdrawal from school and
didn't like that, and originally she loved it, you know,
so I think getting a perspective from it, you know,
when she was a child growing up.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
It's fascinating, difficult time and place.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Absolutely, and yet you know, when you hear her talk,
she's such a positive woman. And she does share in
her conversation that not everyone was like this living in
the South, so again, you know, but a very up
positive person.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
One of the really amazing things this season that we
were able to cover was we were able to speak
with three women who were on death row, which was
pretty amazing because I think originally we only thought we
were going to have one person that was going to
have that experience, and we actually were able to get three,
which was just like a really unique lens into that
(17:07):
world where probably a lot of people don't know what
that looks like.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
You know, that's true, that's true. So what we did,
we had, as you mentioned, conversations with three women. First woman,
if i'll share, her name is Beth, and she spent
five years on death row. There was Shonda, she spent
approximately eleven years on death row, and Michelle spent fourteen
years on death row. Yeah, but what's really interesting again,
(17:33):
that was part of our conversation. I took the women
back and as you'll hear in their podcast, they speak
about their childhood. Some were victimized, some weren't. And we
must always acknowledge that that not all these women had
a life or a childhood of victimization or trauma. They're few,
but many, you know, but there are some women that didn't.
So when we think about Beth and she, as I said,
(17:54):
she talks about her childhood. But it's very interesting because
as we know, here in the United States county jail,
we have a state prison, and what was happening with
all these women. Of course, they first entered a county jail,
then they went to the state prison, which housed the
death row. And that's what we have here in Pennsylvania.
(18:14):
We still have the house, we still have death row,
even though at this moment the executions have been placed
on hold. So interesting conversation, and I think what's really
key is that how the women talk about their day
to day routine on death row and losses as well,
what they could and couldn't do. But then they compare
it to GP, which is general population. So what was
(18:38):
the experience like being on death row for like five, eleven,
fourteen years and now you're in general population and you're
serving a life without parole. So it's very interesting to
hear what was experienced with one and you know, now
in general population and.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
The variations of that. Because one of the heavier conversations
we have ever had was with Michelle. She spoke about
being the last woman on death row in Pennsylvania and
being in isolation for two years within that that's right,
and then coming back to a police being in general population,
like obviously that affects you, It does being withdrawn so
long from other people is just really interesting to hear
(19:18):
her perspective on.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
That it is, and for all the women having to
navigate not just being sentenced and then as I said,
entering county slash state prison, but death row within state prison,
and then being able to then having to I should say,
navigate general population. You know what I mean. It's well
put this way. I can't talk too much about it
(19:41):
because they say it the best. Each woman has her
own interpretation of that. But fascinating to have three women
that were sentenced on death row.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
And we covered some other similar issues like we did
in the prior season, but the loss of being a
parent is always one that comes up, or the possibility
of I could have been a parent.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
That's right. We talked to Trisha in this episode, and
there are other women as well, and she talks about how,
you know, she's in her mid twenties and left behind
her eighteen month old son, and she specifically shares more
about the relationship with her old with her son now
who is older, and the challenges, the ongoing challenges about
(20:24):
her being sentenced to life, and then of course, you know,
the challenges include the relationship or the complexities of their
relationship and also others around her, you know, because someone
had to raise her eighteen month old child, you know,
so very in depth and a loss for all. You know,
there's that ripple effect because it's not just a woman
(20:45):
that's inside. There are people on the outside that suffer too.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
That's right. And then of course we came back around
to personal victimization and trauma, which was we ran to
quite a bit with season one, a little bit less
of this season, but it's still a big part of
the incarceration experience.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Absolutely, and some of the women, not all, but some
of the women in this series do talk about childhood victimization, rape,
you know, from someone usually that they know or have known,
and that trauma, that victimization. You know, there's bullying, there's
you know, domestic violence, there's emotional there's all these different
(21:26):
types of violence that the women talk about that they experienced,
but sadly, that violence, well, that trauma is carried through
to their incarceration. But there are we're happy to say,
in most prisons there are or state prisons, there are
programs that are there for the women, and some of
(21:46):
the women speak about that too. That certain programs have
helped them work through their trauma. Doesn't mean that it's
left them or it's going to go away, but it's
eased or eased some of their pain or helped them
manage sentence.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
It's nice to see hear the insight into that and
just like all the different variations of that for each
woman and what programs they took and what worked for
them and what helped them and what did.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
I think that's so true, AJ, because sometimes we seem
to think that they get nothing, but some of the
women will will share with us that no, we do
have certain programs you know that helps.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Us, and some of them have the fight to get
into them.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
They do mention that as well and as well, and again, AG,
I think it's always important for our listeners around the world,
because we know this goes around the world. Is that
here in the United States, life you know, does mean
life with an appeal, but that doesn't mean you'll be
released and life without parole. We have a large number
of women throughout the United States that will never ever
(22:46):
be released. So you know, it's significant to remind people
about the differences in sentencing within other Westernized countries of women.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
One thing that came up this season that we didn't
really touch on last season, that I wanted to talk
to your perspective about how legacy media views these women
without speaking to them and writing for them. That was
a really great typic that came up a couple of times.
Do you mind talking a little bit about that?
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Sure? You know, And in our conversation i'd ask them
about ask each well, many of the women I should
say their thoughts on media, you know, and not putting
words into their mouth saying did it sensationalize you? But
how for them to comment about their belief of how
they were portrayed. And now some of these women have
(23:33):
already been in the system twenty thirty forty years, so
media certainly has changed since then. But overall it was
their response was more negative, was very negative as opposed
to positive, because as many of the women have shared
the media and I'm just generalizing, I'm not wanting to
(23:53):
put anything out there and say that, you know, it's
a blanket statement, but the women had shared that literally,
come talk to us, see us, speak to us before
you start writing your stories, you know, like what we're doing.
Get to know us a little bit. Don't send a survey,
don't send a questionnaire in, don't bring me up and
say hey, I'm going to write a story about you
(24:14):
on the phone, and you know, we never hear from
you again. So there's that separation of when it comes
to the women and who they really are and often
what the media or the sensationalizing of the women within
the media, and the women talk a bit about that,
but not all experiences were the same because again, we
(24:35):
have women that have been in there for a short
period of time. We've got women that have been in
the system that we've interviewed or had conversations with after
fifty two years. So media has changed, but it wasn't
positive within their eyes or the experience that they had had.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Yeah, and kind of bringing the conversation back around as
this was, you know, our second year doing this. What
has changed for you since doing the first season? Like
what was different for you for this perspective going back
up and heading back in the month, see was it
similar to the last season or have things progressed differently
in your research recently?
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Right, Thanks for asking that, and I think even possibly
with yourself the first time going into the prison system,
and again it was first for both of us doing
a podcast or producing podcast. Again, you're just not sure
how things will go, like will a woman, will a
woman want to turn up because again they had the
right not to. Would you know, would that be one
(25:32):
woman less that we're going to have a conversation with.
Would a woman at that stage want to talk about
certain things? Or would would it be a very quiet
conversation and not much happening interaction? I think, do not think.
I do believe the second time, going to sc on Muncy,
we were more prepared in the sense of understanding what
(25:53):
to expect, possibly what not, but conversations with each of
the women we like. As you understand, we really did
stick to what we set out to do by you
across the board, from the first ten women through to
what we completed in the second session, we stuck to
the same questions, the basics. And again I think this
(26:17):
time around, you know, I've learned to pull back a
little bit because I love to have a great conversation
with them. But again, you know, I think it's just learning,
keep pulling back a little bit and letting the women
have agency, empowering each woman, learning to empower each woman
by giving them more of the mic, you know what.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
I mean, platform to share what they want to share.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Absolutely, So I think there was always in the back
of my mind. I don't know if it worked or not,
because as has said, I'm a chatterbox, and once I
get going with the women, I love love of chatters,
you know, AJ. But again, I think it's just a
learning curve about every time I went in, it's like
pulling back a little bit and letting them feel more
empowered to have the platform to speak. I also again,
(27:00):
you know, going in the second time, you know, every
woman has a unique story. We say there are similarities, absolutely,
and we get asked, don't we AJ, Well, what do
you find is similar Well, it happens though some of
the women have been victimized, some have some don't like
the meals they're being served or whichever or something. You know,
they talk about losses and dying and death. But overall,
(27:23):
each woman has a unique piece of their story that
I think we're able to draw out no matter what
it is. But no, I think second time, going through,
I think I was very excited, AJ. I think I
was enthusiastic, like yourself, not knowing what to anticipate. But
that makes it special as well.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Yeah, it's a very unique experience, and like it's really
hard to describe when you're in the room in the
prison and you're recording with them, Like it's very emotional,
it's very intimate, and there's a certain I don't know,
there's just like a certain energy to it, and a
lot of these women have never been in front of
a microphone ever in their lives, and it's just such
like a a foreign experience also in that sense, you know.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
I think that's something again for anyone that's listening, think
about sitting at a table in a very sparse room,
you know, like in a small room, and you know,
you're there, I'm there in particularly meeting women for the
first time, and you know, put the head set on
or put you you know, whichever and sitting there and
they're not sure what to anticipate. So you're right, it's
(28:26):
it's a very interesting environment and I think you just
have to be very gentle whatever that means, but just
be very gentle in the moment with the women because again,
for many of them, they will share that they were
really nervous. They weren't sure what was going to be
asked or how they would sound. But I do have
some feedback afterwards we can have a chat about because
(28:49):
we have a couple of letters we could read out
and they gave us some feedback, which we've asked to
do that it was just a feeling, so we may
be able to read those out shortly. But yeah, I
just think each woman it was a surreal experience, particularly
for them. And when you think about it, AJ, we
have the control of what's going to be broadcast or
(29:12):
you know out on this podcast. The women don't have
the chance to review it, listen to it whatever, in
order to make changes. Yeah, we do allow and I
know you were wonderful in making this happen that we
negotiated and worked out with the prison sci muncy that
(29:33):
each woman could hear. So would you like to share
what do you think of.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
That's it's great so as you could imagine, one of
the challenges of being an inmate in a correctional facility
is you don't have access to things on the outside,
such as the internet or podcasting. So we wanted to
make sure that every woman could hear back their episode
as we had a rough at it, just so they
(29:57):
could hear themselves hear what they say, said, give us
any feedback and also let's know if there were comfortable
with certain things, if we should remove it or just
to give them that peace of mind. And it's really
interesting because we do this and we can we get
to see the reaction as they are listening to it,
and that's also really powerful in itself.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
I think that was I think that's the biggest thing.
As I said, these women one, you know, would come
into a room when we were letting them or not
letting them, when they were being permitted to hear their voices.
You know, one woman would sit at this table and
they'd see us on the screen and they'd hear the
conversation and just observing them. As you said, Aj, there
(30:41):
were moments I had to hold back tears. There were
moments it was emotional because the woman in front of
us from the distance, you know, in the prison and
here we are sitting in my home and we're you know,
we're sharing with them. They're recording watching individual women try
not to show that they're getting emotional or reaching for
(31:01):
something to wipe their eyes or you know, wriggling and
putting their head down when they were hearing their own words.
It was so powerful, and I think that was something
If anyone said to me what was something powerful and special,
I would say it would have been the moments that
each woman heard themselves speak.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Yeah, and that most of them have never had that
experience of hearing themselves on a recording. You know it.
It is very powerful, I think.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
AJ. We've got a couple of letters here, I really do. Yes,
if you want to read out, this is great. So
we've got some letters here. There's a couple there. Well,
I've got all start anyway. So what we did is
ask for women and they all did, which was wonderful,
and we just selected a few here, just some feedback
(31:48):
how they felt after you know, a week or two
after producing the podcast, after them having a conversation, how
do they actually feel, you know, when they heard their
own voice. So I can certainly start with one age
a life. Yeah. So you know, all these letters always
(32:08):
start by dear doctor Whiteley or doctor Kate and AJ.
So we won't get into that, but every letter says that,
and they're very very kind and they share many things.
But I've just pulled a few sentences, a few lines
from that. So this is Brenda and she said, you know,
hello and greetings, and then she said these are her words. Now,
(32:29):
I thought the podcast interview went very well. She shares
that these are her words. You are a pro at
what you do. I felt very comfortable during the interview.
While listening to myself, I felt like I was listening
to someone else's story. I can't believe how emotional I became.
(32:51):
I would do it again in a heartbeat. It was great.
So that was Brendan she talks for. But I just
looked a couple of little pieces there. So this is
from Beth. Now in Beth's podcast too, she had Frazzle
the dog, so we always mentioned that there's any noises,
It was Frazzle. So this is from ute. Oh so cute.
(33:15):
This is from Beth and Frazzle because she said he
said to say hi, So it has Dear Dr Whitelein Aj. First,
I want to thank you for allowing me to take
part in your podcast. I must admit in the beginning
I was very nervous, but once hearing the segment, I
was very pleased. You made me feel at ease and
(33:38):
I feel like I conveyed my story very well. I
am hopeful that it touches someone or even helps someone
who's experienced some of the things that I have. The
experience was very freeing and healing for me. The work
(33:58):
you do on our behalf is a ma You help
to let us know we are not forgotten and that
we matter. I'm very grateful, and that's from Beth and Frassele.
So this is so important because again, it's not about
us and what we did, it's about hearing that how
it impacted these women. So here is a letter from Evon.
(34:22):
She said it was nice seeing us, which many of
the women have said was lovely. I want you to
know that I really really enjoyed listening to myself on
the podcast now, and I'm going to say this to everyone.
Eyvon is a hohot. She really is a funny because
her next sentence is I did an excellent job and
(34:43):
I know others will appreciate it too. I was completely
satisfied with all that I shared. I experienced different feelings
throughout those thirty minutes. The sadness of losing many family
members throughout the year, not being able to raise my son,
(35:05):
and the crime I committed which affected so many people.
I was also proud of myself because for many years
I refused to share anything. Today, I'm willing to open up,
extend myself and share my experience with others. Maybe, just
(35:29):
maybe it will change their lives. I believe it will
benefit so many as they try to adjust to the
new environment. It will motivate and inspire them, giving them
the strength they need throughout their sentence. Some of what
I shared before my incarceration will allow others to see
(35:52):
they are not alone. If they were through or currently
going through trauma or traumatic experiences, it's possible to overcome them. Overall,
I'm happy and pleased with the outcome of my podcast.
I'm also looking forward to hearing everyone who shared. And
(36:12):
then she thanks us Evon. I mean that is some
let That is some of the letters we receive from
the women. But again, just acknowledging for some was therapeutic.
Like her, she hadn't spoken about things, and she said
I was able to do that. That's amazing, And think
about she did that with strangers.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Yeah, that's the most amazing thing about this too, is
just like that. Willingness to open up is a real
difficult thing to do.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
It is, and I think over time, trust and respect
go a long way.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
So thank you. For joining us for this insightful episode
of Self Identities. A huge thank you to doctor Catherine
Whiteley for sharing her expertise and shedding light on the
stories and experiences the women at Sci Munci. As we
continue to explore the complexities of identity and the human experience,
we hope this conversation inspires you to think deeply and
(37:12):
challenge perspectives. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe,
leave a review, and share with others who might benefit
from these powerful discussions. Follow us on social media for updates,
and feel free to reach out with your thoughts. We'd
love to hear from you. Until next time, I'm Adan
Nutter reminding you to embrace the stories that shape all
(37:32):
of us, Stay curious, stay compassionate, and we'll see you
back here soon for more self identities. Thank you, Thank
(37:54):
you for joining us on another episode of Self Identities
Conversations with Convicted Women, a Flying Possums production in association
with Nutter Productions. We deeply appreciate the support of our
listeners and the contributions from everyone who has made this
podcast possible. Your engagement and encouragement drive us to continue
(38:18):
these important conversations. Until next time, take care
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