January 25, 2024 • 33 mins
Tanya was incarcerated in 1989 at the age of 19. She has served approximately 35 years of her life sentence. She is currently incarcerated at SCI. Muncy.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
We'd like to acknowledge for our listenersjust upfront that what you will hear from
individual incarcerated women throughout the episode youmay find to be emotionally charged and even
disturbing. So we just want toacknowledge that and make you aware of that.
Furthermore, something that listeners probably don'trealize is that all of our individual
(00:25):
conversations with each woman was recorded insidea maximum security prison, the State Correctional
Institution SCI Munsey in Pennsylvania here inthe United States. So the noise,
there's any chatter, anything in thebackground. For our listeners just to understand
that we actually recorded inside a prisonwhere the day goes on. The women,
(00:51):
the officers, the staff, theyall have their jobs. Just because
we're there, it doesn't stop.Well, everything becomes quiet. So if
you do as listeners here background noise, please understand that is part of being
inside a prison. Thank you forlistening to our podcast Self Identities Conversations with
(01:21):
Convicted Women. My name is doctorCatherine Whiteley. I'm a feminist criminologist,
and I am visiting today the StateCorrectional Institution SCI Muncy, a state prison
in Pennsylvania for women. Joining metoday is Tanya, Tanya, welcome,
great to see you, love,thank you, and you know what,
(01:44):
we have not met before except we'vespoken on the phone. Yes, so
this is great first time for bothof us, right, okay, the
beginning of a journey, right,great, So, Tanya, would you
be able to share with our listenersgoing all the way back a little bit
about Well, we're actually going totalk a little bit about your childhood,
(02:06):
your upbringing, but maybe if youcould share with the listeners at this moment,
when were you incarcerated, how oldwere you and where you are today?
Okay, well, I was incarceratedin nineteen eighty nine, so this
is my thirty fifth yearlier, thirtyfive years, Yes, I was nineteen
nineteen and your sentences, I haveall life sens a life sentence. Yes,
(02:29):
okay, thanks for that. Nowwe're going to go back to the
childhood because I'm really wanting to learntoo, because I don't know this a
little bit about you, and I'msure the listeners want to know too.
So could you take us back towhere were you born and raised and what
was your childhood like? I wasborn in Carbonelle, Pennsylvania, and I
grew up right around well, Igrew up in German until I was nine,
(02:53):
and then my parents moved us toPackfelle because our family was growing.
You know. I have a brotherand a sister. I'm the oldest,
and I adore them, you know. I just lost my dad two years
ago, and I think that wasthe hardest thing, you know, being
(03:14):
in here for thirty five years.Of course we lose our family. Yes,
my mom's still living, thank god, you know, and she's such
a blessing to my life, youknow. But I took them through a
lot, you know, as achild, very very close knit family really,
so we were close to our cousinsand everything else. So that's where
(03:38):
we lived, you know, Soeverything was always to get to get together,
you know. Cousins were always over, grandparents were always there, you
know. So it was a wonderfulupbringing, right, you know, and
going No, I'd love to heara little bit more about When you say
the upbringing, what about education andschooling. Well, my dad and my
(04:02):
mom were very strict on our education. They wanted us to get passing grades
because they didn't go to college,and they wanted us to go to college.
And I was the first in myfamily to go to college. Really,
yes, would you like to sharea little bit about that experience before
we move forward. Well, itdidn't last long because I got pregnant.
(04:26):
Yeah, and it went downhill fromthere. So it was a short period
of time that you went to collegeand then you okay, so let's again
when you're going back, just beforewe move on to where you are today
growing up. So your relationship withyour siblings and your cousins, you know,
can you just talk us what werethe most enjoyable moments? What did
(04:47):
you actually do rather than say itwas great, but what did you get
up to? Well? I wasa big softball player in real school.
Yeah, so that's why I wentto college for you know, softball.
I wanted to be a nurse,but that didn't go over too all because
my grades weren't that great, youknow. So, but my family was
(05:13):
close, but they weren't that close. I went to college away, so
they always came up, like everyweekend to take me close to like a
shopping center or to how to eator pick up food for the week for
the dorm. You know. Soit was always they were always there.
You know. My dad was mycoach for softball, and he was my
(05:39):
sister and my brother's coach as well. Wow. You know, and now
that my brother and my sister areolder, they both have their own families,
and I'm watching my brother teach hissons and daughter how to play baseball
and softball. So you know,it's really nice, very much. Yes.
(06:00):
Yeah, So we're going to moveforward a little bit. As you
say, you touched on a littlebit about your childhood and the wonderful upbringing.
Could you share a little bit aboutbecause we're not going to talk about
the crime or the criminality, butwould you be able to share with the
listeners a little bit about once youwere sentenced? Can you recall going back
(06:20):
all those years ago, how didyou feel and knowing or understanding that you're
going to be incarcerated at a youngage in a you know, a maximum
security prison in Pennsylvania. Can yourecall and share with the listeners what it
was like for you. I wasin a very dark place. I wanted
(06:41):
to I was unsuicidal. Watch whenI came here. I wanted to kill
myself and I did try. Imade some serious mistakes when I first came
here. You know, I gotinto relationships and everything else and that wasn't
good for me because I was tryingto avoid my past. I was trying
(07:08):
to avoid my mistakes, the liesthat I told, you know, the
hurt that I caused a lot ofpeople, you know, So I had
to deal with that. I hadto deal with the abuse of my ex
husband. So it took me avery long time to face all those problems,
(07:33):
and I was in a very badposition. I got myself into a
lot of trouble, trouble, Igot misconducts. But after sitting in the
RHU Restricted Housing Union for a while, I began to face the problems,
(07:56):
and the RHU really did me justicebecause I need I needed that put down.
I needed a hit rock bottom tostart building myself up. And it
wasn't the best time. It wasn'tmy greatest moments, you know. But
who I am today. I hadto go through all those problems to face
(08:24):
who I am, you know.I had to accept who I was,
and today I'm a totally different personwhen I was. You know. I've
grown a great deal and I'm proudof where I have gotten myself too,
and I'm not happy with what I'vehow I got there, but I had
(08:48):
to do it. You know,I guess it was my life that I
had to live to get to thatplace and working through the process. You
here, what was What does thatentail when someone said, you know,
you've worked through the process to getwhere you are today, but be a
picture. What does that look likefor the listeners? Okay? For me?
(09:11):
When I first came in here,I couldn't look at myself in the
mirror. That's how much I hatedmyself. But now when I deal dealt
with the abuse that I dealt with, my crime, that I dealt with,
the life sentence, my faith wasthe one that brought me through wonderful.
Could you share a little bit aboutthat, your faith, if you
(09:33):
don't mind. I'm a Christian Christian, and I've been a Christian for almost
a good twenty five years now.I knew Christ before I came to prison
because I grew up in a RussianOrthodox family, did you Yeah, So
it's very tight knit, you know, very doctrinated, you know, so
I always go back to that.But I learned so much because I'm working
(10:00):
my bachelor's degree right now in christcounseling. So yes, and it feels
wonderful. You know that I'm ableto help others, you know, but
I had to help myself first beforeI could even mentor anybody or lead anybody
in the church or anything else.And that's where I started. You know,
(10:22):
Impact of Crime was probably the bestgroup that I took here. Could
you explain what is well? Impactof Crime is? They allow victims to
come in and speak their story tous. And it's different projecting how we
(10:43):
think our victims feel. But whenyou hear somebody victimize tell you their story
and how it affected them, youjust realize, you know, maybe I
wasn't quite completely on how that personfelt, you know. And with my
(11:05):
crime, my victims are also myfamily. So it took a long time
of sitting down in the visiting roomtalking to them and asking their forgiveness.
And you know, it makes astronger person out of us when we ask
(11:26):
that forgiveness and they in turn forgiveus. Wow. And how is the
relationship with your family or family memberstoday? Talk a little bit about that.
It's great. You know. Ispeak to my mom and I wish
my father, my sisters and mybrother, you know, I talk to
them every week. You know,my aunts and my uncles are still around.
(11:48):
They just live far away, andit's difficult because my mom is getting
older, so she can't travel likeshe used to do, so I don't
see them quite often. Virtual visitis a godsend, you know, yes,
yeah, And what would you liketo share, like with your experience
here all those years ago to whereyou are today? What are some of
(12:11):
the things that you know you've mentionedabout your faith, especially you know,
following the path of Christ, Butwhat are other things that you've felt that
have impacted you to bring you towhere you are today to be able to
be so civil and talk and youknow, have this conversation with me.
One major thing that I've been doingfor almost twenty years now is I'm part
(12:33):
of the hospice program. Really,would you explain me to share that with
us? The hospice program started backin nineteen ninety one, but it wasn't
called that. It was called theBuddy program because we didn't have anybody on
hospice at that time. So wehad a lot of the ladies that down
in the infirmary in wheelchairs that reallycouldn't get out, So they called the
(12:56):
Buddy program. So we went downthere and took them to meal in different
places and we just sat there withthem and you know, talked, played
cards or played games or wrote lettersfor them, you know, and it
advanced into the hospice program where thewomen here that are dying, we would
sit with them and just be therewhenever they needed, hold their hands,
(13:24):
you know, when they were havingpain, or you know, get the
nurses and everything else. So thattruly impacted my life because it's not just
watching somebody die, it's just beingthere when they are needed, that they're
not alone, that you know,they don't have to die by themselves.
(13:48):
And it really just impacted me totally. It's interesting. Thank you for that.
It's interesting you talk about, youknow, not having to die alone.
You want today, you know,talking to me about the death or
the possibility of death of other womenaround you. But if you ever,
you know, do you ever thinkabout what it could be like for you,
(14:11):
you know, being incarcerated and dyinginside a prison. Yes, I
give that a lot of thought.And as a Christian it helps better because
God places each and every one ofus where we need to be. So
right now that I'm in cross incarcerated, I'm needed here right so I just
(14:37):
have to figure out what what hewants me to do, you know.
And a long time ago I gavea prayer like, Lord, if this
is where you need me, thenuse me here, you know. And
if this is where I have tostay, allow me to understand and allow
me to cope and give me thestrength that I need us to get through
(15:00):
where you need me. And asa Christian, I think that makes it
a lot easier because the focus isn'tjust being incarcerated. It's doing God's will
and doing Guy's work for our lives. And it took me a long time
to get there. Listen, wenever stopped learning. I'm telling you,
(15:24):
I'd like to hear a little bitabout if you are able to talk.
You know, many women have beenvictims or traumatized some part of their life.
Is this something that you could sharewith us with the listeners regarding some
trauma like you. And again it'snot about mentioning names or people, but
(15:46):
you know there is you know,domestic violence, interpersonal violence, et cetera.
Would you like to touch on I'massuming and forgive me if I'm wrong
that you experienced something like that.Are you able to talk a little bit
about that? Sure? My exhusband very abusive. You know, I
(16:07):
thought my love can change him.Yet the more I tried to love him,
the more beatings I got. I'vebeen raped by him, set on
fire by him. He tried todrown me, and I thought it was
(16:29):
my fault. And this is theinteresting piece of all is that if you
could talk to listeners about you know, thinking it is your fault, because
there's so many people that are beingvictimized, and women victimized. Can you
just touch him a little bit aboutthat, you know, the feeling of
it's my fault. Well, youthink you can do better, or you
think that he might have been havinga bad day and just coming into the
(16:55):
house. You know, you couldhave made it a little better for him
or a little for him. Ihad everything in the house, and I
was basically a prisoner of my ownhome. He isolated me for my family,
so I lost contact with my familyfor three and a half years.
(17:18):
Really, how old were you then? I was just coming out of college.
Really, so I was eighteen whenhe moved me away, and then
I came to prison, right,thank you, Because it's not always easy.
It's not so easy. Would youhave woods of advice or just general
conversation regarding if anyone is listening andthey're going through that, but is there
(17:44):
any woods that you'd like to sharewith them? You can't change the person.
If you can get out, getout, you know, you can't
change who that other person is.Pray for them. But you have to
protect yourself. You have to protectyour children. Thank you for sharing that.
(18:06):
Yeah, welcome. Okay, sowe're going to hear a little bit
more now about you've mentioned a littlebit about well, you mentioned quite a
bit about what you do here onday to day, but other than that,
what about relationships and friendships here?You know, you have, as
you've mentioned by the sounds of things, a very strong social support or network
outside, but what about inside here? I do have a strong support system
(18:30):
in here. You do? Yeah, in the church is my goal to
I'm very much a loner here.However, I do get into my little
friends, you know, I don'tget into the clicks or anything like that,
but that church is number one forme and my job. I work
(18:53):
in food services. Tell us aboutthat because we're having lunch soon. I
believe we're having lunch soon, andmaybe you have prepared our meal. Well,
if you get the salad bar andthe staff. I usually cut all
the produce and make all the salasfor staff. Right, So gad here
(19:15):
we come, there you go enjoy. There's always a thing about prison food,
so as a comment about that,So how often do you do that?
Tell us a little bit and whatare you so enjoyable? For you?
Well, my dream has always beento do a garden, community garden
(19:36):
as well as a little type ofrestaurant, but a very low pain because
we always need There's so many peopleout there that are in desperate need of
food and that's what I would loveto provide, you know. So I
took the culinaries class here, I'vebeen. I did the greenhouse here,
(20:00):
so I've learned and I taught.You know, I was a pure assistant
for the greenhouse and I just loveproduce. I love growing the food and
I love serving the food. SoI work from Monday through Friday from five
am to one and I just lovewhat I do. Isn't that interesting?
(20:25):
And could you just explain to thelistener a little bit about you. You've
touched on the roll, but justto go back for those two positions,
what do they really entail? Likeyou mentioned the greenhouse. And you mentioned
the culinary. Well, someone's thinking, okay, culinary cooking, kitchen,
etc. But what is it likefor women inside to work in that culinary
(20:47):
It was our privilege to work,well, it was a privilege to take
the culinary class, So describe that. What's that like? They have their
own separate kitchen on their own separateclassroom. The teacher was great. He
taught us everything that we couldn't evereven think about. You know, when
(21:08):
I took it, it was thefirst time I made couscous. I love
it. I always wanted to makeit and you know, yeah, but
he gave us the knowledge that weneeded and I got my surf safe.
Congratulations, Thank you. But Iwanted to go into the food service after
(21:30):
I was finished with it because Iwanted to take that experience and just make
it reality for me. Because ifthis is the place that I will die
in, I want to have ajob that I enjoy, and that is
something that I enjoy. I doall the produce every morning, and I
(21:52):
adore what I do, isn't it. Wow, You're actually touching. We
gotta keep moving this so much muchto learn about you and share with our
listeners. But we talked, asI said, about death, and you
mentioned about your faith and Christianity.What about the aging process because you were
incarcerated at rather the young age.Could you share a little bit about the
(22:18):
aging for you, what and howthat's impacted you after all these years?
Oh, the eggs and the pain. Yeah, it's it's very different because
you don't know what to expect asyou age. You know, you can
talk to family, you can talkto your mom or your grandparents, and
(22:40):
you don't know how to expect whatis going to happen to you. I
have I have a thyroid problem.So that has been an issue for the
last twenty years. And I havea thyroid that rides like a roller coaster
up and down, up and down. So they're always changing my medication and
(23:02):
you know, so there are daysthat I wake up that I don't feel
great right, you know, andit's like, oh God, who is
this person? You know, becauseyou don't if you don't feel total,
if you don't feel like yourself,everything is just not right, you know.
(23:23):
But you work through it. Youtry to figure out how can I
best go through the day without allowingthis to affect other people? Yes,
and that is the key. Yes, you know, and sometimes it's hard,
and sometimes, you know, yousay things that you shouldn't, you
know, and then you go backand apologize, you know, yes,
(23:47):
and those are the days that Ihave to go and apologize. We will
make mistakes. Oh yeah, thereapologies. Just thinking a little bit about
moving forward. Could you share alittle bit about again, only if you
wish, the process when you weresentenced, just generalizing maybe what was going
(24:07):
you know, the process for youas a young woman, What was going
through your mind? What did youanticipate or not anticipate if you wouldn't mind
if to share a little bit aboutthat, And we're not looking for names
information as such, but just yourpersonal experience at such a you know you're
nineteen, correct, Yes, yes, Are you able to reflect a little
(24:29):
bit about that that sentencing process foryou? I was very lonely, and
like I told you earlier, Iwanted to die. I played guilty to
all my charges, so there wasnothing. I just wanted to go into
a corner and just hide it.Yes, because I didn't like who I
(24:53):
was, and I'm sure nobody elseliked to who I was either. You
know, I impacted that a lotof people and a lot of hurt,
you know, and there's sometimes thatyou can't go back and you can't apologize
for what you've done. And Ithink that's the hardest thing. You know,
you can apologize to family for youknow, putting them through all this,
(25:18):
because our families go through this sentencewith us, and that's hardest of
all. You know, we didsomething to get in here, but our
families didn't, you know. Andit's really tough sometimes to allow, you
know, to say like this iswhat I'm going through, but they really
(25:41):
don't understand, you know, andit's such it's such a void. Yes,
yes, you know, to tryto explain things that are happening,
to try to explain how you feel, and they sometimes they just don't understand,
you know. And it's really toughbeing alone. But if you don't
(26:06):
have support from outside, you're reallyalone. Yes, yes, you know.
And it's just like I'm blessed thatI have my family. I'm blessed
that i have my sister, mybrother and my cousins. I'm blessed that
I have the friends that I've madeand the pen pals that i have because
I've grown a lot of friends.You know outside of here that have written
(26:33):
me for the last twenty five years. Really, yes, and these are
pen pals. These are pen palsreally yeah? What may I ask?
What do they ask? How doyou develop a relationship, well friendship,
I should say, with pen pals, Well, they ask questions, you
know, or you just give anintroduction of yourself and you just tell them
(26:53):
exactly you know, exactly who youare and what you are and they accept
who where they do. Yes,yes, it's just like an everyday life,
right, you know the conversation thatwe're having. You just put it
a picker with you. Yeah,that's interesting after all these years, you
still have so many pen pals.Oh yeah. The other piece I wanted
(27:17):
to ask was about at the ageof nineteen, like being here eight years
later and seeing like nineteen eighteen yearold twenty year olds coming through the system
and serving long sentences for some ofthem. What advice or what could you
share to our listeners about not justwhat it looks like, but you know,
(27:37):
your involvement or your words to youknow, anyone that is that age
and it's a different generation, andhow is that how is it like from
your perspective of being incarcerated. Well, just from the women that are here,
it's the disrespect and it's just it'sa they have a total different life,
(28:03):
the way they view things, theway they see things, the way
they percept you know, their perceptionof things. Not everybody, but you
know, some are rude, someare you know, but that's that's some
of us too, sure, youknow. It just depends on who their
families are, you know, howthey were grown up, you know,
(28:26):
if they were by themselves or ifthey were raised differently. It just depends.
So you have to make that gestureof your hand and say, look,
if you need any help, wecan mentor you, we can help
you through this. Because people arenot alone here, you know, and
a lot of us that are mentoringand CPS workers which are not which is
(28:52):
a certified pure assistant. So theygo around and they help, they talk
to the women, They tried togive them guidance and help them, you
know, get involved here. Youknow a lot of these women now don't
have as much as they we usedto have here. A lot of the
(29:15):
programs have been depleted, you know, because of people retiring and changes literally
chuffy that happens. So if wewere we've got a few minutes left.
But if again, just on reflection, you know, nineteen and you know
where you are today? Is whatdo you see? How really do you
(29:38):
describe this woman in front of me? I mean, I know you mentioned
it, but like you know,you talk so much, You've done so
many things in the course of theseyears, you know, and you have
a smile on your face. Canyou just share with everyone this was me,
this is where I am, andthis is where I wish to be.
(30:00):
Well, back then, I didnot like who I was right through
the growing with all the counseling andeverything else. It took me a while.
But today I'm very happy with myChristianity. I'm very happy with the
person that I am, and I'mvery enthused about the future. You know,
(30:21):
whether it's in here, whether it'sout there, really it's going to
be okay. Yes, wow,I want to just actually mentioned something there
about the pathway, like your lifehere inside, if there was something that
you could change by the choices you'vemade, what would that look like or
what could that be here here?Yes, not getting into relationships there you
(30:45):
go, I believe that's yes,Yes, that was my downs. Yeah,
friendships relationships. Yes, definitely,definitely, so you have a positive
outlook on life. You've shared thatyou have a really strong, dedicated social
support network, particularly your family andyour friends, and not forgetting your pent
(31:07):
pals. Is there something else youwould like our audience to know about who
you are or anything that has happenedto you that you'd like to share.
I think with everything that has gonethrough that I've gone through for the last
thirty three years, it's a wealthof knowledge, and I think we all
(31:32):
do it, whether we're inside orwhether we're outside. We all have problems
and you have to grow from thoseproblems. And it's just how you're going
to feed it. Are you goingto feed that bad person or are you
going to feed that good person?I chose to feed the good person,
(31:52):
you know, and that's who Iam today. Right. I have another
question that always just goes on andon, but I can't help that is
as we summ as we finished today, if you were released tomorrow, what
would that look like? A betterstill? How would that feel? I
know, tough question, isn't it. I'll give you time to think.
(32:14):
Yeah, how would how would youfeel? What would that look like?
I don't know. I really don'tknow. I would have to do a
year in a center, but Iwould already have a job in line because
of our friends out there. Family. Family is the most important, and
(32:35):
a good church home, yes,yeah, and a job and a job
wonderful from there. God only knowswhere he's going to take me exactly for
all of us say yeah, definitely. Yeah, Well, Tanya, it
has been wonderful to come face toface and see and and and share and
learn even myself learn more about youand I thank you so much for your
(33:00):
time today, and you know,let's keep the journey going. Definitely,
absolutely, thank you, Tania.It's been a pleasure. Thank you. M
We'd like to acknowledge for our listenersjust upfront that what you will hear from
individual incarcerated women throughout the episode youmay find to be emotionally charged and even
disturbing. So we just want toacknowledge that and make you aware of that.
Furthermore, something that listeners probably don'trealize is that all of our individual
(00:25):
conversations with each woman was recorded insidea maximum security prison, the State Correctional
Institution SCI Munsey in Pennsylvania here inthe United States. So the noise,
there's any chatter, anything in thebackground. For our listeners just to understand
that we actually recorded inside a prisonwhere the day goes on. The women,
(00:51):
the officers, the staff, theyall have their jobs. Just because
we're there, it doesn't stop.Well, everything becomes quiet. So if
you do as listeners here background noise, please understand that is part of being
inside a prison. Thank you forlistening to our podcast Self Identities Conversations with
(01:21):
Convicted Women. My name is doctorCatherine Whiteley. I'm a feminist criminologist,
and I am visiting today the StateCorrectional Institution SCI Muncy, a state prison
in Pennsylvania for women. Joining metoday is Tanya, Tanya, welcome,
great to see you, love,thank you, and you know what,
(01:44):
we have not met before except we'vespoken on the phone. Yes, so
this is great first time for bothof us, right, okay, the
beginning of a journey, right,great, So, Tanya, would you
be able to share with our listenersgoing all the way back a little bit
about Well, we're actually going totalk a little bit about your childhood,
(02:06):
your upbringing, but maybe if youcould share with the listeners at this moment,
when were you incarcerated, how oldwere you and where you are today?
Okay, well, I was incarceratedin nineteen eighty nine, so this
is my thirty fifth yearlier, thirtyfive years, Yes, I was nineteen
nineteen and your sentences, I haveall life sens a life sentence. Yes,
(02:29):
okay, thanks for that. Nowwe're going to go back to the
childhood because I'm really wanting to learntoo, because I don't know this a
little bit about you, and I'msure the listeners want to know too.
So could you take us back towhere were you born and raised and what
was your childhood like? I wasborn in Carbonelle, Pennsylvania, and I
grew up right around well, Igrew up in German until I was nine,
(02:53):
and then my parents moved us toPackfelle because our family was growing.
You know. I have a brotherand a sister. I'm the oldest,
and I adore them, you know. I just lost my dad two years
ago, and I think that wasthe hardest thing, you know, being
(03:14):
in here for thirty five years.Of course we lose our family. Yes,
my mom's still living, thank god, you know, and she's such
a blessing to my life, youknow. But I took them through a
lot, you know, as achild, very very close knit family really,
so we were close to our cousinsand everything else. So that's where
(03:38):
we lived, you know, Soeverything was always to get to get together,
you know. Cousins were always over, grandparents were always there, you
know. So it was a wonderfulupbringing, right, you know, and
going No, I'd love to heara little bit more about When you say
the upbringing, what about education andschooling. Well, my dad and my
(04:02):
mom were very strict on our education. They wanted us to get passing grades
because they didn't go to college,and they wanted us to go to college.
And I was the first in myfamily to go to college. Really,
yes, would you like to sharea little bit about that experience before
we move forward. Well, itdidn't last long because I got pregnant.
(04:26):
Yeah, and it went downhill fromthere. So it was a short period
of time that you went to collegeand then you okay, so let's again
when you're going back, just beforewe move on to where you are today
growing up. So your relationship withyour siblings and your cousins, you know,
can you just talk us what werethe most enjoyable moments? What did
(04:47):
you actually do rather than say itwas great, but what did you get
up to? Well? I wasa big softball player in real school.
Yeah, so that's why I wentto college for you know, softball.
I wanted to be a nurse,but that didn't go over too all because
my grades weren't that great, youknow. So, but my family was
(05:13):
close, but they weren't that close. I went to college away, so
they always came up, like everyweekend to take me close to like a
shopping center or to how to eator pick up food for the week for
the dorm. You know. Soit was always they were always there.
You know. My dad was mycoach for softball, and he was my
(05:39):
sister and my brother's coach as well. Wow. You know, and now
that my brother and my sister areolder, they both have their own families,
and I'm watching my brother teach hissons and daughter how to play baseball
and softball. So you know,it's really nice, very much. Yes.
(06:00):
Yeah, So we're going to moveforward a little bit. As you
say, you touched on a littlebit about your childhood and the wonderful upbringing.
Could you share a little bit aboutbecause we're not going to talk about
the crime or the criminality, butwould you be able to share with the
listeners a little bit about once youwere sentenced? Can you recall going back
(06:20):
all those years ago, how didyou feel and knowing or understanding that you're
going to be incarcerated at a youngage in a you know, a maximum
security prison in Pennsylvania. Can yourecall and share with the listeners what it
was like for you. I wasin a very dark place. I wanted
(06:41):
to I was unsuicidal. Watch whenI came here. I wanted to kill
myself and I did try. Imade some serious mistakes when I first came
here. You know, I gotinto relationships and everything else and that wasn't
good for me because I was tryingto avoid my past. I was trying
(07:08):
to avoid my mistakes, the liesthat I told, you know, the
hurt that I caused a lot ofpeople, you know, So I had
to deal with that. I hadto deal with the abuse of my ex
husband. So it took me avery long time to face all those problems,
(07:33):
and I was in a very badposition. I got myself into a
lot of trouble, trouble, Igot misconducts. But after sitting in the
RHU Restricted Housing Union for a while, I began to face the problems,
(07:56):
and the RHU really did me justicebecause I need I needed that put down.
I needed a hit rock bottom tostart building myself up. And it
wasn't the best time. It wasn'tmy greatest moments, you know. But
who I am today. I hadto go through all those problems to face
(08:24):
who I am, you know.I had to accept who I was,
and today I'm a totally different personwhen I was. You know. I've
grown a great deal and I'm proudof where I have gotten myself too,
and I'm not happy with what I'vehow I got there, but I had
(08:48):
to do it. You know,I guess it was my life that I
had to live to get to thatplace and working through the process. You
here, what was What does thatentail when someone said, you know,
you've worked through the process to getwhere you are today, but be a
picture. What does that look likefor the listeners? Okay? For me?
(09:11):
When I first came in here,I couldn't look at myself in the
mirror. That's how much I hatedmyself. But now when I deal dealt
with the abuse that I dealt with, my crime, that I dealt with,
the life sentence, my faith wasthe one that brought me through wonderful.
Could you share a little bit aboutthat, your faith, if you
(09:33):
don't mind. I'm a Christian Christian, and I've been a Christian for almost
a good twenty five years now.I knew Christ before I came to prison
because I grew up in a RussianOrthodox family, did you Yeah, So
it's very tight knit, you know, very doctrinated, you know, so
I always go back to that.But I learned so much because I'm working
(10:00):
my bachelor's degree right now in christcounseling. So yes, and it feels
wonderful. You know that I'm ableto help others, you know, but
I had to help myself first beforeI could even mentor anybody or lead anybody
in the church or anything else.And that's where I started. You know,
(10:22):
Impact of Crime was probably the bestgroup that I took here. Could
you explain what is well? Impactof Crime is? They allow victims to
come in and speak their story tous. And it's different projecting how we
(10:43):
think our victims feel. But whenyou hear somebody victimize tell you their story
and how it affected them, youjust realize, you know, maybe I
wasn't quite completely on how that personfelt, you know. And with my
(11:05):
crime, my victims are also myfamily. So it took a long time
of sitting down in the visiting roomtalking to them and asking their forgiveness.
And you know, it makes astronger person out of us when we ask
(11:26):
that forgiveness and they in turn forgiveus. Wow. And how is the
relationship with your family or family memberstoday? Talk a little bit about that.
It's great. You know. Ispeak to my mom and I wish
my father, my sisters and mybrother, you know, I talk to
them every week. You know,my aunts and my uncles are still around.
(11:48):
They just live far away, andit's difficult because my mom is getting
older, so she can't travel likeshe used to do, so I don't
see them quite often. Virtual visitis a godsend, you know, yes,
yeah, And what would you liketo share, like with your experience
here all those years ago to whereyou are today? What are some of
(12:11):
the things that you know you've mentionedabout your faith, especially you know,
following the path of Christ, Butwhat are other things that you've felt that
have impacted you to bring you towhere you are today to be able to
be so civil and talk and youknow, have this conversation with me.
One major thing that I've been doingfor almost twenty years now is I'm part
(12:33):
of the hospice program. Really,would you explain me to share that with
us? The hospice program started backin nineteen ninety one, but it wasn't
called that. It was called theBuddy program because we didn't have anybody on
hospice at that time. So wehad a lot of the ladies that down
in the infirmary in wheelchairs that reallycouldn't get out, So they called the
(12:56):
Buddy program. So we went downthere and took them to meal in different
places and we just sat there withthem and you know, talked, played
cards or played games or wrote lettersfor them, you know, and it
advanced into the hospice program where thewomen here that are dying, we would
sit with them and just be therewhenever they needed, hold their hands,
(13:24):
you know, when they were havingpain, or you know, get the
nurses and everything else. So thattruly impacted my life because it's not just
watching somebody die, it's just beingthere when they are needed, that they're
not alone, that you know,they don't have to die by themselves.
(13:48):
And it really just impacted me totally. It's interesting. Thank you for that.
It's interesting you talk about, youknow, not having to die alone.
You want today, you know,talking to me about the death or
the possibility of death of other womenaround you. But if you ever,
you know, do you ever thinkabout what it could be like for you,
(14:11):
you know, being incarcerated and dyinginside a prison. Yes, I
give that a lot of thought.And as a Christian it helps better because
God places each and every one ofus where we need to be. So
right now that I'm in cross incarcerated, I'm needed here right so I just
(14:37):
have to figure out what what hewants me to do, you know.
And a long time ago I gavea prayer like, Lord, if this
is where you need me, thenuse me here, you know. And
if this is where I have tostay, allow me to understand and allow
me to cope and give me thestrength that I need us to get through
(15:00):
where you need me. And asa Christian, I think that makes it
a lot easier because the focus isn'tjust being incarcerated. It's doing God's will
and doing Guy's work for our lives. And it took me a long time
to get there. Listen, wenever stopped learning. I'm telling you,
(15:24):
I'd like to hear a little bitabout if you are able to talk.
You know, many women have beenvictims or traumatized some part of their life.
Is this something that you could sharewith us with the listeners regarding some
trauma like you. And again it'snot about mentioning names or people, but
(15:46):
you know there is you know,domestic violence, interpersonal violence, et cetera.
Would you like to touch on I'massuming and forgive me if I'm wrong
that you experienced something like that.Are you able to talk a little bit
about that? Sure? My exhusband very abusive. You know, I
(16:07):
thought my love can change him.Yet the more I tried to love him,
the more beatings I got. I'vebeen raped by him, set on
fire by him. He tried todrown me, and I thought it was
(16:29):
my fault. And this is theinteresting piece of all is that if you
could talk to listeners about you know, thinking it is your fault, because
there's so many people that are beingvictimized, and women victimized. Can you
just touch him a little bit aboutthat, you know, the feeling of
it's my fault. Well, youthink you can do better, or you
think that he might have been havinga bad day and just coming into the
(16:55):
house. You know, you couldhave made it a little better for him
or a little for him. Ihad everything in the house, and I
was basically a prisoner of my ownhome. He isolated me for my family,
so I lost contact with my familyfor three and a half years.
(17:18):
Really, how old were you then? I was just coming out of college.
Really, so I was eighteen whenhe moved me away, and then
I came to prison, right,thank you, Because it's not always easy.
It's not so easy. Would youhave woods of advice or just general
conversation regarding if anyone is listening andthey're going through that, but is there
(17:44):
any woods that you'd like to sharewith them? You can't change the person.
If you can get out, getout, you know, you can't
change who that other person is.Pray for them. But you have to
protect yourself. You have to protectyour children. Thank you for sharing that.
(18:06):
Yeah, welcome. Okay, sowe're going to hear a little bit
more now about you've mentioned a littlebit about well, you mentioned quite a
bit about what you do here onday to day, but other than that,
what about relationships and friendships here?You know, you have, as
you've mentioned by the sounds of things, a very strong social support or network
outside, but what about inside here? I do have a strong support system
(18:30):
in here. You do? Yeah, in the church is my goal to
I'm very much a loner here.However, I do get into my little
friends, you know, I don'tget into the clicks or anything like that,
but that church is number one forme and my job. I work
(18:53):
in food services. Tell us aboutthat because we're having lunch soon. I
believe we're having lunch soon, andmaybe you have prepared our meal. Well,
if you get the salad bar andthe staff. I usually cut all
the produce and make all the salasfor staff. Right, So gad here
(19:15):
we come, there you go enjoy. There's always a thing about prison food,
so as a comment about that,So how often do you do that?
Tell us a little bit and whatare you so enjoyable? For you?
Well, my dream has always beento do a garden, community garden
(19:36):
as well as a little type ofrestaurant, but a very low pain because
we always need There's so many peopleout there that are in desperate need of
food and that's what I would loveto provide, you know. So I
took the culinaries class here, I'vebeen. I did the greenhouse here,
(20:00):
so I've learned and I taught.You know, I was a pure assistant
for the greenhouse and I just loveproduce. I love growing the food and
I love serving the food. SoI work from Monday through Friday from five
am to one and I just lovewhat I do. Isn't that interesting?
(20:25):
And could you just explain to thelistener a little bit about you. You've
touched on the roll, but justto go back for those two positions,
what do they really entail? Likeyou mentioned the greenhouse. And you mentioned
the culinary. Well, someone's thinking, okay, culinary cooking, kitchen,
etc. But what is it likefor women inside to work in that culinary
(20:47):
It was our privilege to work,well, it was a privilege to take
the culinary class, So describe that. What's that like? They have their
own separate kitchen on their own separateclassroom. The teacher was great. He
taught us everything that we couldn't evereven think about. You know, when
(21:08):
I took it, it was thefirst time I made couscous. I love
it. I always wanted to makeit and you know, yeah, but
he gave us the knowledge that weneeded and I got my surf safe.
Congratulations, Thank you. But Iwanted to go into the food service after
(21:30):
I was finished with it because Iwanted to take that experience and just make
it reality for me. Because ifthis is the place that I will die
in, I want to have ajob that I enjoy, and that is
something that I enjoy. I doall the produce every morning, and I
(21:52):
adore what I do, isn't it. Wow, You're actually touching. We
gotta keep moving this so much muchto learn about you and share with our
listeners. But we talked, asI said, about death, and you
mentioned about your faith and Christianity.What about the aging process because you were
incarcerated at rather the young age.Could you share a little bit about the
(22:18):
aging for you, what and howthat's impacted you after all these years?
Oh, the eggs and the pain. Yeah, it's it's very different because
you don't know what to expect asyou age. You know, you can
talk to family, you can talkto your mom or your grandparents, and
(22:40):
you don't know how to expect whatis going to happen to you. I
have I have a thyroid problem.So that has been an issue for the
last twenty years. And I havea thyroid that rides like a roller coaster
up and down, up and down. So they're always changing my medication and
(23:02):
you know, so there are daysthat I wake up that I don't feel
great right, you know, andit's like, oh God, who is
this person? You know, becauseyou don't if you don't feel total,
if you don't feel like yourself,everything is just not right, you know.
(23:23):
But you work through it. Youtry to figure out how can I
best go through the day without allowingthis to affect other people? Yes,
and that is the key. Yes, you know, and sometimes it's hard,
and sometimes, you know, yousay things that you shouldn't, you
know, and then you go backand apologize, you know, yes,
(23:47):
and those are the days that Ihave to go and apologize. We will
make mistakes. Oh yeah, thereapologies. Just thinking a little bit about
moving forward. Could you share alittle bit about again, only if you
wish, the process when you weresentenced, just generalizing maybe what was going
(24:07):
you know, the process for youas a young woman, What was going
through your mind? What did youanticipate or not anticipate if you wouldn't mind
if to share a little bit aboutthat, And we're not looking for names
information as such, but just yourpersonal experience at such a you know you're
nineteen, correct, Yes, yes, Are you able to reflect a little
(24:29):
bit about that that sentencing process foryou? I was very lonely, and
like I told you earlier, Iwanted to die. I played guilty to
all my charges, so there wasnothing. I just wanted to go into
a corner and just hide it.Yes, because I didn't like who I
(24:53):
was, and I'm sure nobody elseliked to who I was either. You
know, I impacted that a lotof people and a lot of hurt,
you know, and there's sometimes thatyou can't go back and you can't apologize
for what you've done. And Ithink that's the hardest thing. You know,
you can apologize to family for youknow, putting them through all this,
(25:18):
because our families go through this sentencewith us, and that's hardest of
all. You know, we didsomething to get in here, but our
families didn't, you know. Andit's really tough sometimes to allow, you
know, to say like this iswhat I'm going through, but they really
(25:41):
don't understand, you know, andit's such it's such a void. Yes,
yes, you know, to tryto explain things that are happening,
to try to explain how you feel, and they sometimes they just don't understand,
you know. And it's really toughbeing alone. But if you don't
(26:06):
have support from outside, you're reallyalone. Yes, yes, you know.
And it's just like I'm blessed thatI have my family. I'm blessed
that i have my sister, mybrother and my cousins. I'm blessed that
I have the friends that I've madeand the pen pals that i have because
I've grown a lot of friends.You know outside of here that have written
(26:33):
me for the last twenty five years. Really, yes, and these are
pen pals. These are pen palsreally yeah? What may I ask?
What do they ask? How doyou develop a relationship, well friendship,
I should say, with pen pals, Well, they ask questions, you
know, or you just give anintroduction of yourself and you just tell them
(26:53):
exactly you know, exactly who youare and what you are and they accept
who where they do. Yes,yes, it's just like an everyday life,
right, you know the conversation thatwe're having. You just put it
a picker with you. Yeah,that's interesting after all these years, you
still have so many pen pals.Oh yeah. The other piece I wanted
(27:17):
to ask was about at the ageof nineteen, like being here eight years
later and seeing like nineteen eighteen yearold twenty year olds coming through the system
and serving long sentences for some ofthem. What advice or what could you
share to our listeners about not justwhat it looks like, but you know,
(27:37):
your involvement or your words to youknow, anyone that is that age
and it's a different generation, andhow is that how is it like from
your perspective of being incarcerated. Well, just from the women that are here,
it's the disrespect and it's just it'sa they have a total different life,
(28:03):
the way they view things, theway they see things, the way
they percept you know, their perceptionof things. Not everybody, but you
know, some are rude, someare you know, but that's that's some
of us too, sure, youknow. It just depends on who their
families are, you know, howthey were grown up, you know,
(28:26):
if they were by themselves or ifthey were raised differently. It just depends.
So you have to make that gestureof your hand and say, look,
if you need any help, wecan mentor you, we can help
you through this. Because people arenot alone here, you know, and
a lot of us that are mentoringand CPS workers which are not which is
(28:52):
a certified pure assistant. So theygo around and they help, they talk
to the women, They tried togive them guidance and help them, you
know, get involved here. Youknow a lot of these women now don't
have as much as they we usedto have here. A lot of the
(29:15):
programs have been depleted, you know, because of people retiring and changes literally
chuffy that happens. So if wewere we've got a few minutes left.
But if again, just on reflection, you know, nineteen and you know
where you are today? Is whatdo you see? How really do you
(29:38):
describe this woman in front of me? I mean, I know you mentioned
it, but like you know,you talk so much, You've done so
many things in the course of theseyears, you know, and you have
a smile on your face. Canyou just share with everyone this was me,
this is where I am, andthis is where I wish to be.
(30:00):
Well, back then, I didnot like who I was right through
the growing with all the counseling andeverything else. It took me a while.
But today I'm very happy with myChristianity. I'm very happy with the
person that I am, and I'mvery enthused about the future. You know,
(30:21):
whether it's in here, whether it'sout there, really it's going to
be okay. Yes, wow,I want to just actually mentioned something there
about the pathway, like your lifehere inside, if there was something that
you could change by the choices you'vemade, what would that look like or
what could that be here here?Yes, not getting into relationships there you
(30:45):
go, I believe that's yes,Yes, that was my downs. Yeah,
friendships relationships. Yes, definitely,definitely, so you have a positive
outlook on life. You've shared thatyou have a really strong, dedicated social
support network, particularly your family andyour friends, and not forgetting your pent
(31:07):
pals. Is there something else youwould like our audience to know about who
you are or anything that has happenedto you that you'd like to share.
I think with everything that has gonethrough that I've gone through for the last
thirty three years, it's a wealthof knowledge, and I think we all
(31:32):
do it, whether we're inside orwhether we're outside. We all have problems
and you have to grow from thoseproblems. And it's just how you're going
to feed it. Are you goingto feed that bad person or are you
going to feed that good person?I chose to feed the good person,
(31:52):
you know, and that's who Iam today. Right. I have another
question that always just goes on andon, but I can't help that is
as we summ as we finished today, if you were released tomorrow, what
would that look like? A betterstill? How would that feel? I
know, tough question, isn't it. I'll give you time to think.
(32:14):
Yeah, how would how would youfeel? What would that look like?
I don't know. I really don'tknow. I would have to do a
year in a center, but Iwould already have a job in line because
of our friends out there. Family. Family is the most important, and
(32:35):
a good church home, yes,yeah, and a job and a job
wonderful from there. God only knowswhere he's going to take me exactly for
all of us say yeah, definitely. Yeah, Well, Tanya, it
has been wonderful to come face toface and see and and and share and
learn even myself learn more about youand I thank you so much for your
(33:00):
time today, and you know,let's keep the journey going. Definitely,
absolutely, thank you, Tania.It's been a pleasure. Thank you. M
Popular Podcasts
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.