David Parker Ray (Scorched edition)

You ever wonder what's happening in the house down the street? The neighbor that you wave at daily but have never talked to? Tune in for this twisted, scorched edition of Singed Eye Sockets.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:10):
What's happening, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Sinjed
I Sockets right here on JJ's Lounge. A couple of
big announcements before we get into the show. We are
now officially a credited network. We have partnered with Black
Mair Productions, so we are uploading everything on IMDb, So
anybody who has been on in the past or is

(00:31):
going to be on in the future will now have creditation,
which is huge. A lot of podcasts don't do that,
so that's something that we offer. JJ's Lounge is also
going to start venturing into more films similar to Burn
After Playing, which we'll start we actually are working on
right now. But yeah, I'm really stoked about it. We're

(00:52):
getting a lot of actors and film directors that are
starting to want to be guests on the show. One
thing that I have noticed is that we're getting a
lot more push and promotion from these guys because they
want to be seen. So it's pretty nice to expand
our horizons. With that being said, Evolution, man, how you
doing today.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
I'm doing great, man. That's actually wonderful news. We've talked
about it a couple of times, and I'm excited about it.
It's a great moving the right direction for us.

Speaker 3 (01:24):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
So we're all busy as usual, but looks like we're
going to be a lot more busy in the future.
So I'm ready to go right right.

Speaker 3 (01:36):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (01:36):
Evolution will be part of this next burn after playing
is just somebody's where sean Man? Hell the hell are you?

Speaker 4 (01:42):
I will not be part of the next burn after playing.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
I've only done like seven of them, so you know, yes,
I think you can miss one.

Speaker 4 (01:51):
You know. I look at it like I was part
of the best seven and anything that follows just pales
in comparison. As they say, I'm doing all right, man,
I've been having a really good year for just work

(02:13):
and comedy. Everything's picked up. Been doing a lot of
we were just talking, and been able to do some
international travel within the last twelve months doing stand up.
Had some pretty good clubs under my belt. This weekend,
I'm going to be at the One Night Stands Comedy
Club in Waterford, Michigan, which is it's a great club.

(02:39):
But what makes a great club even more than just
the fact that it is a fantastic location, everything is
the guy that books is a guy named Mike Green
who's probably if you've not heard of him. He's easily
one of the ten best comics that has ever graced
the stage in this country in the history of all
stand up And I'm not even exaggerated, guys, brilliant and

(03:01):
so if you get on his stage, like.

Speaker 3 (03:03):
That's.

Speaker 4 (03:04):
Huge, you know, yeah, yeah, it's it's a big deal.
So I'm excited about it. But I'll tell you what, boys,
I'm looking forward to the to the December break coming
up where I can tell my students to go kick rocks, right.
I love I love them, most of them. Man, I

(03:28):
need I need I need a break. I need a break.
I need a break so we can do more podcast together. Guys,
that's not there, we go.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
I do want to know, like, as a stand up
comedian though, booking internationally, what's the process on that, because
you know, we get a lot of comedians and on
this network and I'm just curious.

Speaker 4 (03:49):
It is a huge pain in the ass because the
thing is like, if you go over to work anywhere
that is outside of the United States, you think, you know,
you would think it, you know, simplistically, it's like, oh,
I'm just going to do stand up. You know, I'm
going to do this happy thing. It's like, no, it
doesn't matter if you're going to do stand up. It

(04:10):
doesn't matter if you're going to do like engineering or something.
You're going into their country.

Speaker 5 (04:15):
To get paid.

Speaker 4 (04:15):
So there has to be paperwork that needs to be
filled out if you're going to sell items. Because most
comics that you know are at at the level that
I'm at. You have merchandise, right, so you have to like, now,
there's there's a workaround where you know, as an example,

(04:36):
when I went to the Bahamas, if you bring something
with you, you say, oh, this is promotional material, and
they'll say, five hundred T shirts. Yeah, I'm just going
to give all this away, uh, because yeah, right, makes
sale in their country. Then they're taxes and all this

(05:01):
other stuff that I mean, and it's.

Speaker 1 (05:04):
Just in order for you to make any for off it,
and you'd have to like ramp up the price.

Speaker 4 (05:10):
Oh yeah, it's great. Well, I mean when we're at
the resorts, I mean typically I sell like I have
two T shirts. I have my getting fingered shirt with
my jeep shirt, and then I have a new piece
of merchandise that's coming out this weekend for the first time,
which I have this joke about broccoli. I don't want
to go into details because it's just a long story.

(05:32):
But the shirt is like green shirt and this cartoon
broccoli that's twerking and like shoulder, and you know, I
typically would sell those for twenty bucks apiece and at
a comedy club, right, but out of country. I mean,

(05:54):
you know, when I was down in the Bahamas, I
was selling them for fifty bucks apiece. And the crazy
thing is, man, people would just walk up and peel
that money off like it's just nothing first, and I'm
just like Jesus, guys.

Speaker 1 (06:07):
But what kind of I mean, yeah, what kind of
turnaround are you getting? Like, are you getting high percent
back on that? Or not really even at that rate?

Speaker 4 (06:17):
You know, it's it's a higher percentage than it. Well, no,
it's not a higher percentage because like your Walmarts and
things are getting things, you know, pennies on the dollar,
you know, right, And I'm paying for somebody to uh,
they have to buy the shirts, so I have to
pay for their shipping and everything else, and then they

(06:39):
I have to pay for them, like putting the crap
on the shirts that I come up with, and they're shipping,
so you know I'm getting a good amount back, but
it's it's not it's I'm a small business man, you know.
It's it's not like I'm a big box store, so
you know I'm charged. But the thing is, though, like

(07:01):
they're not just paying for the shirt. They're paying for
the joke that comes with it, the ideas that went
into it, the creativity, the creation of it. And you know,
when you're doing something like that, like when you get
do when you go if you paid for a kiss
shirt at Walmart, let's keep that example, You're going to
pay ten bucks, right, But if you're going to the

(07:22):
concert and you're buying a concert shirt at the event,
at the moment, that thing's gonna be what fifty sixty bucks?

Speaker 1 (07:29):
Right right?

Speaker 4 (07:30):
It always pay more when you're at an event hall.
So that's why. Yeah, So that's why it's a little
bit raised.

Speaker 1 (07:37):
Well, and with a lot of the well yeah exactly,
and a lot of the musicians and comedians that I've
had on, I mean, all the traveling expenses there that's
out of their own pockets. So like in order for
them to make any kind of profits, usually the merch.

Speaker 2 (07:49):
Yeah yeah, and in another country, their giveaways or a certain.

Speaker 3 (08:01):
You want. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (08:07):
Well, and that's the thing that anybody that's getting into this,
it's not like it used to be. Like when I
started stand up almost thirty years ago. Now, we used
to it the weeks were Tuesday through Sunday, like they had.
The clubs were open that long all across the country,
and Monday was your travel day. Well now most clubs

(08:28):
are Friday and Saturday. So just like you said, like
I have to sell that merch to pay for my
gas if they don't want to pay for my lodging.
You know, all this stuff man like tolls everything else,
like you know merches. How you know I will tell
you right now the windsor trip uh you know, because
I just went up to Canada perform. I broke even

(08:49):
on that whole thing.

Speaker 2 (08:51):
Wow, you know you need a stronger agent. I mean
I can tell them, Hey, you know what, he doesn't
come out of the house for this amount here, So
you need to step up your game and me to
at least meet us.

Speaker 4 (09:10):
Halfway because that's ridiculous. Hey, if you want to, if
you want to be my agent, that's great. But I
can just see these people go and I've seen his tapes.
Tell them to go back in the house.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
No, no, you will roll out the red card tribute
it is. It is a five star hotel, nothing less.
And those tapes. So you have to see the new tapes.

Speaker 1 (09:36):
They have some really nice three stars out there. Okay,
I think it gets dude.

Speaker 4 (09:41):
You know what, you know, my biggest, biggest thing with
hotels is you know, if you guys want to start
this you know crime podcast talking about hotels, fine, but
my requirement for hotels, and this should be anybody's requirement
for hotels. And I understand different people have different budgets,
but like the the biggest hit next to one of

(10:03):
my videos that I put up of my stand up
was I was in a hotel in Ohio and I
can't remember the little podunk fucking town that I was
next to, but it had outward facing do you know
I'm talking about like the old seventies hotels where the
doors were exposed to the outside. Like if you open

(10:23):
up your window, you can see people walking by outside
and they can just sit there and look in your room.

Speaker 3 (10:29):
You know.

Speaker 4 (10:30):
Like, so I went, I was at this hotel and
it wasn't one that I paid for, right, so I
just show up and I go to my room and
my feet every step I took it was like they
were sticking every single step, right, And I mean there

(10:51):
was like mold in there. I found a band aid
in the shower, like all this stuff, right, And so
I'm videotaping it in a videotape and got how old
am I? I'm recording with my phone and I put
it on on TikTok, and all of a sudden, my
views are almost like a thousand almost immediately, and I was, Wow, Okay, hotels,

(11:13):
apparently that's going to be my thing.

Speaker 3 (11:15):
Right.

Speaker 4 (11:15):
I go down to the front desk and be like, bro,
this this is unacceptable. You know what his response to
me was. He goes, well, you you were in a
smoking I don't smoke, first of all, but that was
his response, You're in a smoking room.

Speaker 1 (11:28):
And I'm like, was that to do the sticky floors?

Speaker 3 (11:31):
Right?

Speaker 2 (11:34):
Thank you?

Speaker 4 (11:35):
And you know what he said about the band aid
with all the audacity in the world, he says to me, well,
how do I know they didn't come off for you?

Speaker 3 (11:46):
Dude?

Speaker 4 (11:46):
Hand to god. So what I told him was in
the other comic that I had, two of the comics
that were with me there at that hotel. Uh, Terry
McNeely and Mike, Mike Mirke was standing there with me,
and Mike is like this New Jersey Like, I'm not
saying he's a mob guy, but he grew up around
mob people, so he's got kind of that wise guy

(12:08):
thing where you just don't mess with him kind of thing.
And he was coming to like help me negotiate. But
before he could say a thing, I leaned in. I go,
look here, here's what's gonna happen. You're gonna give me
another room, or you're going to give my money back
to my friend who booked this hotel, and I will
drive home tonight. Those are the two things that you

(12:29):
have a choice from. You don't have any other choices.
So what's it gonna be? Dude? The dude switshed my room,
and I looked over at Murk and he looks at me, like,
who the are you? Like I walked right out of
good Fellas.

Speaker 2 (12:47):
That's funny, that's good.

Speaker 1 (12:50):
That actually does kind of help lead us into you
talked about a poda in town. We've all done a
lot of traveling. I've traveled all over the States and
driven by a lot of small rundown towns, and sometimes
I've always kind of questioned, I wonder what happens in
this town, Like does anything interesting happen? Have you guys
ever had that? Like you're driven by a house in
the middle of nowhere, You're like, I wonder who lives there?

(13:12):
What's going on?

Speaker 3 (13:14):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (13:14):
Yeah, this is gonna be one of those This is
gonna be one of those episodes. And before we get
too into it, I do want to let everybody know
that this is a very h gross, disturbing episode as
being a scorched edition. We go after serial killers, murderers,

(13:34):
stuff like that rather than cold case files, and we
just kind of break them down. And today we are
doing David Parker Ray, also known as the Toy box Killer.
Let's see here, I'm gonna share a picture of this
guy here.

Speaker 3 (13:51):
Here he is.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
What a good looking guy?

Speaker 2 (13:53):
Wow? Yeah, trust guy.

Speaker 1 (13:58):
Yeah, he looks like he could be a defense attorney
for the crime Crime Mob.

Speaker 2 (14:05):
Yeah. Well, one of those doctors did have all those
torture devices.

Speaker 1 (14:11):
Right, Well, it's funny that you mentioned that, because we're
gonna circle to that here shortly. So. David Parker Ray
was born in the November sixth of nineteen thirty nine,
to father Cecil Ray and mother Nettie Parker. Ray and
his sister Peggy moved in with the mom's parents, Russell
and Dolly Parker, who lived in a small ranch and

(14:32):
mountain near New Mexico. Due to financial struggles. Their dad
would randomly show up every few months and would give
Ray magazines featuring a sado masochistic porn for those of
you who don't know what that means, bondage pain infliction
kind of pornography. By his preteen years, David started having

(14:55):
sexual fantasies of raping women with broken beer bottles. WHOA, yes,
so already. I mean the timeline here is going to
go sort of fast because I think I want it.
Kind of gives all the information you need as I've
burned through it and high school, Ray was bullied for

(15:18):
being shy around other women, so of course he's obviously
going to start having issues with just hating people. I
feel like there's a a theme with serial killers that
have to do with an upbringing most of the time,
whether it's religious or just you know, abusive, alcoholic, you know,

(15:39):
drug addicted parents, I feel like it's it's always something
related to that, you know, So he started drinking and
doing drugs in high school. His sister said she started
seeing drawings of bondage and pain inflicted pictures that Ray

(16:00):
would draw. By the time he was fourteen and nineteen
ninety three, Ray claimed he had been raping bitches since
he was old enough to jerk off.

Speaker 2 (16:10):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (16:11):
Yeah, so right off the bat, what's your guys thoughts
on this guy?

Speaker 2 (16:14):
Yeah, well, he's shaping up to be an interesting piece. Geez,
holy mother.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
Yeah, yeah, the not the best guy. He doesn't look
if you just saw him on the streets, you probably
wouldn't think it. But yeah, that's definitely not starting out
very well.

Speaker 4 (16:34):
Wow, he looks like he sweeps up high schools.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
First of all, you guys are both like hitting the
nail on the heads here.

Speaker 4 (16:43):
Like the janitor that everybody just kind of knew mister Brown.
He didn't smile a lot, but you know, kids never
bother him much, and he always saw him, you know,
sweeping up after dances and shit like that, and folding
up the tables in the cafeteria. That it's got that
look about him. But here's Mike, all right, First of all,
he doesn't look like somebody like look at that face.

(17:06):
That face doesn't look like he would be like, yeah,
I've been raping bitches like that.

Speaker 2 (17:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (17:13):
The second question is, I mean, you know you talk
about the nature versus nurture argument and the dad. You
know you said the common thread throughout the serial killer profile.
Here's my question, was his dad involved in a serial killing?
Because maybe that will come up later, But if he's

(17:36):
gone every once in a while, like he's gone and
then comes back every couple of months, and he's dropping off,
you know, like S and M ship to his kid,
like hell dude.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
Right, I don't only know much about the dad, but
I would not be opposed. I honestly, I would not
be surprised. I believe he as a truck driver, so
that would make sense. You know.

Speaker 4 (18:08):
As much as I've traveled, they've been in plenty of
truck stops, and I've seen like skulls that have been bedazzled,
you know, or like teens with like the hawkshead and
things that you bring home to your kids. I don't
see an S and M section, you know.

Speaker 1 (18:24):
Well usually hey and all those the porn magazines as
far as I remember, because when I was eighteen nineteen,
I did purchase some porn bags. Uh, they were in
like the black sleeves, so you couldn't see what was
in them. Anyways, I'm trying to you know. I remember,
like I remember like playboys and stuff were like would

(18:45):
sometimes be exposed, but like a lot of them were covered,
so you couldn't see what was in them, right, or
you know.

Speaker 4 (18:51):
What, crazy enough if it wasn't Barnes and Noble, there's
Walden Books. I remember they had the porn magazines like
House and stuff, but they weren't in the black sleeve.
They were just way up high, right, so the assumption, yeah,
you have to be an adult, but like you could
look up and see the lusty lipped you know, just like.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
Yeah, kids these days they'll not know what that is
because by the age of thirteen or fourteen, they gather
cell phones and searching on the internet so much.

Speaker 2 (19:25):
Yeah, full blown access to everything, right, which at your fingertips.

Speaker 1 (19:33):
Right, it's very scary. I actually had a thrill of
going in and sneaking my dad's porn.

Speaker 4 (19:38):
You know, normal porn, normal normal, not this serial serial
killer breeding right.

Speaker 1 (19:51):
And look, look, I get people have fetishes, I do
I understand that. I think if you're starting to have
thoughts of raping women with broken beer bottles, you should
probably see a therapist and see if that's an okay
fetish to be getting into.

Speaker 4 (20:10):
I don't know, evolution if you're if you're a therapist and
you're guys like, let me ask for a friend.

Speaker 2 (20:20):
Hey, you know what, hold on to that. I'm gonna
be right back, come back with a straight jacket. Officers
of the law.

Speaker 1 (20:31):
Is this is this is my colleague. He's going to
be taking you into custody. Yeah, but no, like seriously,
I mean people, I mean, people are into some crazy
stuff and that's fine. I'm not one to judge, but
there's a point where you should probably be.

Speaker 4 (20:47):
Wanting to suck a milky titty or you know, slap
somebody with a double dog versus like there there's that's
a that's a major jump. I mean, and it's just
and this is going to sound crazy, so for our
two viewers right now that I can see the numbers on, yeah,
me for saying this, but there is a massive difference

(21:10):
between you wanted you to take a beer bottle and
put it inside of a person, all right, I've people
shove stuff inside of each other all the time, all
different types of things, food, you know, broomhant whatever, for
mutual enjoyment. But it's when it gets to the broken
part there is something. There is such a massive psychological

(21:35):
jump that happens from you know, like what you would
call normal fetishes, you know, like we're talking about to
the beer bottle. It's I mean, it's a bit much
and then all of a sudden, broken beer. Because then
that's a whole other level of something. And I get
you know that you said the dad brought these magazines

(21:56):
home and stuff. But did this and maybe we'll find out,
you know, further on in the podcast here, But did
he have psychological issues? Because looking at an S and
M magazine and going to broken beer bottle, that's do
you see what I'm saying, It's like, that's.

Speaker 2 (22:15):
A great leap. It's a great leap off the deep end, buddy.

Speaker 3 (22:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:19):
Yeah, Well I think that a lot of you know,
on top of the being bullied at school and the
shyness and the S and M porn, they're out in
the middle of nowhere desert, he probably didn't have a
whole lot else to do besides come up with these
ideas in his head, and I'm guessing there's some sort

(22:39):
of psychological issues if by the age of you know,
eleven and twelve, he's having these dreams of doing this
to women.

Speaker 2 (22:46):
Well, you also mentioned that he was drinking in on drugs,
you know, depending on what the drug was. I could really, Oh,
what what in the uh the thought process for creativity,
especially as a team, you know.

Speaker 1 (23:00):
Right, So, right out of high school, Ray received an
honorable discharge from the military. He was a general mechanic.
Shortly after that, Ray bought a trailer in Elephant Butte,
New Mexico. In to twenty twenty, the population was fourteen
and forty one people, so po dunk town from the
middle of the desert. One thing I do know about

(23:22):
a lot of these rundown towns. You get a lot
of these like people that are running from the law
for various reasons that go and hide out in these towns,
So I'm familiar with that. He got a job as
a maintenance man, not at a school as not at
a school, but at a New Mexico State park in

(23:44):
a resort town called Truth and Consequences, which is five
miles away from Elephant Butte.

Speaker 4 (23:52):
And Consequences actually.

Speaker 1 (23:54):
Truth and Consequences. Their population is around six thousand and
they're Actually it's interesting. They actually changed the name of
their town in nineteen fifty because a very popular radio
show called Truth and Consequences did an advertisement that they
would air their next show in the first town to
name themselves after the show. So that's how Truth and

(24:17):
Consequences became Truth and Consequences. It's a resort town. There's
a lake there, which is where the Ray started working.
David Ray started working, and that's where he worked until
he was arrested in nineteen ninety six. So by the
age of twenty sixth Raid been married and three times.
His first wife reported that Ray told her he committed

(24:39):
his first homicide sometime in nineteen fifty seven, kidnapping a woman,
tying her to a tree, torturing and killing her. So
that's that nineteen fifty seven. He's either seventeen or eighteen
at the time.

Speaker 2 (24:50):
Hold up, back up, he told his.

Speaker 1 (24:52):
Wife that, yeah, his first wife.

Speaker 2 (24:56):
Wow, can you imagine a spouse getting some information like
that and she's a woman.

Speaker 1 (25:04):
Yeah, that's rough. He's like, look, we're getting married, so
I gotta be honest. All right, here's a little bit
about my pat here's my horns.

Speaker 2 (25:17):
Dash.

Speaker 1 (25:18):
Are you okay with this? And on top of that,
are how do you feel about being molested with a
broken beer bottle?

Speaker 4 (25:26):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (25:29):
I doubt duels.

Speaker 1 (25:36):
That's well, is it the broken part or the other end?
It's not funny, guys. Sorry. Ray had two children. He
had a son, which is undocumented. I didn't find it
in any of the resources. I'm guessing probably because he
didn't have cussium. And Glenda Jesse Ray, who for some

(25:58):
time was an accomplice of is she actually helped him
wow with some of these things?

Speaker 3 (26:03):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (26:03):
No, She also had a son. His name is not
disclosed in anything. And as far as the father goes,
officials are pretty sure that Ray is the father of
the child, which means he probably did a lot of
these things to his daughter as well.

Speaker 3 (26:21):
Wow.

Speaker 5 (26:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:23):
In nineteen eighty six, Jesse, his daughter, reported the FBI
that her father was abducting and torturing women and selling
them to buyers in Mexico. However, the allegations were too
vague to make an arrest.

Speaker 4 (26:35):
Come on, what's vague about any of that? Like, I'm
very clear on what the fuck is it. Yes, I'm
still stuck on the second wife. Like how you guys
were like, how did he bring this up in the
marriage that he murdered somebody?

Speaker 2 (26:53):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (26:53):
How he broke the subject like with your woman? You know,
it's like, what are you at Applebe's and you're like, hey,
you want to molest and kill women with me? That
sounds mozzarella sticks.

Speaker 1 (27:04):
I mean, oh my goodness, I wonder if it's got
horse radish with a steak.

Speaker 2 (27:15):
Uh. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (27:17):
I don't know the whole time out in the car
in their trunk, but.

Speaker 2 (27:23):
I mean, like, how how did you come up? Maybe
maybe maybe the wife was on drugs and alcohol too.

Speaker 1 (27:32):
Well, And it's not like these people were, you know,
on a group chat on Facebook that you know, dived
into S and M and they met and started chatting
and realized they had similar No, back then, there wasn't
this stuff.

Speaker 5 (27:45):
So exactly, it's weird.

Speaker 1 (27:50):
So at uh Ray ended up meeting thirty seven year
old Cindy Hindy what an interesting name. He got a
job at this jee. She got a job at the
same state park, and she was running from grand theft
and drug chargers back in Washington State. Oh yeah, they
hit it off romantically with shared interest and violent sexual fantasies.

Speaker 2 (28:14):
There it is.

Speaker 1 (28:17):
Yes, So that's the timeline we got here. Now we're
gonna get We're gonna jump forward to the rest that
they made. Oh it's ninety nine, not ninety six. I
apologize everybody. We're gonna go to the rest. Then we're
gonna kind of discuss. I actually have some audio of
his there's a recording that he would play for his victims,

(28:38):
so I actually have it. It's a seven and a
half minute thing. I broke it up in a minute clips,
So we'll get into that here in a minute. On
March twenty second, nineteen ninety nine, after three days of captivity,
Cynthia Vigil escaped from Ray's trailer. She waited until Ray
had gone to work and then unlocked her chains with
keys that Hindy had left on a nearby table. Hendy

(28:59):
noticed vigils attempt to escape. In a fight ensued. During
the struggle, Hindy broke a lamp on the captive's head,
but Vigil unlauncher change and stabbed Hindy in the neck
with an ice pick. Vigil Lad, while wearing only an
iron slave collar and padlock chains. She ran down the
road seeking help. When she got from a nearby homeowner

(29:19):
who took her in, comforted her, and called the police.
Her escape led officials to the trailer and instigated the
capture of rain Hindi.

Speaker 2 (29:27):
She only had.

Speaker 1 (29:29):
She was naked. All she had was chaining a collar on.
Yeah wow, mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (29:37):
What a way to treat guests at your home.

Speaker 5 (29:39):
Right, that's good, Right, that's good.

Speaker 4 (29:52):
Can you imagine though, I mean legit, you know, if
for a moment, if you will, just imagine you were
at home, right, and I know we're all at home,
but like you're at home and you're relaxing. It is
time where you're just like watching TV, just finish folding laundry,
and you're like everything's right with the world. You've cracked
open your favorite you know, soda, like you're drinking your

(30:14):
diet pepsi. All right, so you're in that moment, all
of a sudden, you here screaming outside. How surreal would
it be to walk outside, you know, and see this
woman with because she got clocked.

Speaker 2 (30:28):
In the head running down.

Speaker 4 (30:32):
She's naked, you know, except for shackles and like an
iron spike collar or something. How far fucking I mean,
wouldn't you feel like, I mean, this is a movie.
I'm in a movie. This this isn't real, right.

Speaker 2 (30:46):
That would be so bizarre. But the first thing you
do is dial nine one one, look.

Speaker 6 (30:56):
At her body and go nice and then well the
scary part of the scariest part about this though, like
in today's generation like world, I don't know that i'd
learn the house.

Speaker 1 (31:09):
I mean, i'd call the police.

Speaker 2 (31:11):
Because you don't know what's what's coming after that, you
know what I mean. I hate for Jason or one
of those freaky horror torture movie creatures, you know, to
come up with a chainsaw right after that, you know
what I mean. I mean, there's a towel, cover yourself

(31:33):
and hang on for just a minute.

Speaker 1 (31:37):
Thirsty, I get you a drink.

Speaker 4 (31:42):
Yeah, with all these breakings that have been happening lately,
with the craziness where somebody will come up and like, hey,
I've got delivery, and you open the door and then
three guys rush out of nowhere. Man, I don't open
my door for anybody nowadays. I had a door dash
uh couples about three weeks ago outside of my house,

(32:06):
and they were lost right, and I can understand it,
like I live in a kind of a complicated neighborhood
as far as infrastructure is, and they were they had
the bag of food with them, but as soon as
I got out of the car, I was just like no,
and they're like we're looking. I go no, get And
I had my hand on my side arm because it's

(32:28):
the way things are nowadays, like it's it is too scary, right, I'm.

Speaker 2 (32:33):
Just right off right right, So this is not the
house to stop at, right, keep it moving sense.

Speaker 1 (32:44):
So most of the victims, including Cynthia, were captured in
Truth or Consequences near some of the local bars, mostly
because they were sex workers on the street, so they
were easy. Yeah, they're easy in that Cynthia and or
Cindy and Ray both mentioned it a few times about

(33:07):
what's up.

Speaker 4 (33:12):
The comedy club that I'm the general manager of is
in a town of eleven thousand people and we don't.
I mean, I know there's sex workers in the town,
like just there has to be because it's eleven thousand people.
But they're not just all out there willy and nilly
sex working it up on the street. This was a
town of six thousand, and they were able to get

(33:32):
a number of sex workers.

Speaker 1 (33:33):
Well, it's a resort, it's a resort town, so the
population might be sixty four hundred or six thousand people traveling.

Speaker 2 (33:43):
Okay, all right, so but somebody who's from from somewhere.

Speaker 1 (33:48):
Else either were either sex workers or you know, just
drunk or you know, just easy, easy to capt it,
you know, to capture. Even he even mentioned a few
of them were from the part that they worked at.

Speaker 2 (34:01):
Yeah, wow, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:05):
Let's get into this recording that he plays for each
of his victims, and then we're going to talk about
where he had them held. These are broke down to
one minute increments. I think I'll probably play two at
a time and we'll just talk about it, because this
is a seven and a half minute recording. So first up, are.

Speaker 3 (34:25):
You comfortable right now? I doubt it. Wrists and ankles, chained, gagged,
probably blindfolded. You are disoriented and scared too, I would imagine,
perfectly normal under the circumstances. Listen to this tape. It
is very relevant to your situation. I'm going to tell

(34:48):
you in detail why you have been kidnapped, what's going
to happen to you? And how long you'll be here.
I don't know the details of your capture because this
tape is being created July twenty third, nineteen ninety three
as a general advisory tape for all future captives. The

(35:09):
information I'm going to give you is based on my
experience dealing with captives over a period of several years.
If at a future date there are any major changes
in our procedures, the tape will be upgraded. Now. Now
you are obviously totally helpless. You don't know where you're at,
don't know what's going to happen to you. I'm sure

(35:31):
that you've already tried to get your wrists and ankles loose,
and no you can't. Now you're just waiting to see
what's going to happen next. You probably think you're going
and you're sure right about that. A primary interest is
what you've got between your legs, thoroughly and repeatedly in
every hole you've got, because basically you've been snatched and

(35:55):
brought here for us to train and use. You sound
kind of far out, well, I suppose it is to
be uninitiated, but we knew it all the time. It's
gonna take a lot of adjustment on your part, and
you're not gonna like it one day. It's not like
you're gonna have any choice in the matter. You've been
taken by force, and you're going to be kept and

(36:17):
used by force. What all this amounts to is that
you're going to be kept chained up like an animal
to be hush. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:31):
I think the first disturbing part of that is he's
talking as if like he's the doctor doctor or like
I don't even know. His demeanor in the recording is
very scary and itself.

Speaker 2 (36:47):
Yeah. Wow. First of all, I'm trying to look at
this through the view of a person who's kidnapped.

Speaker 3 (37:00):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (37:01):
First of all, they're terrified. You know, they got just
taken from wherever they were, and they're locked up and
changed and whatnot, probably don't have anything on, and they're
listening to this calm, creepy, terrifying voice. You know what

(37:22):
I'm saying. They're probably thinking, oh my god, I'm gonna die,
you know what I mean. That's some horrific type of
stuff going on right there. And it's very disturbing that
the person talking is making these type of statements to
someone that they're about to torture and who knows what

(37:46):
kind of ways. That's that's pretty pretty mess up, right.

Speaker 1 (37:53):
What you got Sean.

Speaker 4 (37:56):
Well evolution mentioned the person perspective of the person that is,
you know, kidnapped in My first thought is after seven
and a half minutes of this tape, I would just
be like, come on, you know, do something, do something.

(38:17):
But a couple of things occurred to me is like,
there's there is a severe psychopathy here with this individual
because his manner of speaking, like, you know, the way
you talk about how you know he's like a doctor
is just very matter of fact. But if you listen

(38:39):
to the language that he is using, it's all very
control based. You can't do this, you're chained taken by force.
Like there is a reoccurring theme that you can see
is what you know is one of his primary drivers
throughout you know. And this is just in the first
two minutes and it was repeated multiple times, right, So

(39:02):
that that's what But my next question is is that's
what that motherfucker sounded like? Did you slow that down?

Speaker 1 (39:09):
This is just the recording that I I mean, this
is only a recording I can find on it. That's
not his actual voice. Because if he would in interviews,
he has a much higher pitch, like cracky voice.

Speaker 5 (39:19):
It is, okay because.

Speaker 1 (39:22):
This could be the this could be what he he
could have done that. I don't know if it was
just the the doc whatever this came from they did it.
But okay, yeah, that's the only audio I could find.
It's not his actual.

Speaker 4 (39:35):
Voice, okay, because that's that's like some sloth sounding ship,
you know what I mean? Like that was that was
like if this is what this guy sounds like this,
that's even like more frightening.

Speaker 1 (39:46):
Right, So this like this is literally like a Saw film.
The only difference is there's no chance of escape.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
Mmm.

Speaker 5 (39:54):
Yeah, like that's that's.

Speaker 1 (39:56):
How crazy this is. Let's get into the next one here.

Speaker 3 (39:58):
Well, we'll do two more we want to in any
way that we want to, and you may as well
start getting used to it, because you're going to be
kept here and used until such a time as we
get tired of you, and we will eventually in a
month or two, maybe three. It's no big deal. My
lady friend and I have been keeping leaves for years.

(40:20):
We both have hang ups involving dungeon games, et cetera.
We found that it is extremely convenient to keep one
or two females available constantly to satisfy our particular needs.
We are very selective when we snatch a girl to

(40:42):
use for these purposes. It goes without saying that you
have a body and you're probably young, because for our
purposes we prefer to snatch girls in the mid teens, scared,
easy to handle, and easy to train. And anytime we
go on a hunting trip, if we can find a teenager,
we usually start hitting the gay bars. Look for a

(41:04):
well built lesbian. There is not much as a danger
of them carrying at a disease. If I can't find
a lesbian, we snatch anything that's young, clean and well built.
We very seldom come back empty handed because there's plenties
out there to choose from, and with a little practice
and deception, most of them are very easy to get

(41:26):
with very little risk. At this point, that makes a
little difference what category you fall into. You're here and
we're going to make the most of it. You're going
to be kept in a hidden room. It is relatively
sound proof, escape proof, and is completely stocked with devices
and equipment to satisfy. There may or may not be
another girl in this room occasionally for variety, we like

(41:49):
to keep twos at the same time. In either case,
as the new girl, you'll definitely be getting the most
attention for a while now. As I said earlier, you're
going to be.

Speaker 1 (41:59):
Kept h.

Speaker 3 (42:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (42:07):
So the sanctimony with which this person is speaking, it's
very neck beardy. Okay. I don't know if you guys
know what neck beard is, but if you have ever
heard a neck beard in their natural environment speaking about

(42:30):
women and the overblown amount of hubris, you know that
is attached to their their intelligence. Sounds very much like
this guy. Okay, So now a lot of the pieces
are starting to fall into place with his background and
everything else. He also used the very and my dad

(42:52):
always said, listen to the words people use. Listen to
what they say, because they'll say more than what's actually
coming out of their face. Right, And he defined the
women as waifs. I heard that word waif waif waf
just for those listening, is defined as a homeless, neglected,

(43:12):
or abandoned person, especially a childtra Dictionary. So not only
do we have kind of a lock now and this
guy is I think opinion of himself, but now we
understand it's not just a control thing, but he looks
at these people that they are pulling into this as

(43:36):
just these less than I don't even think he sees
them as human.

Speaker 1 (43:41):
No, no, he even says animal. He basically says you're
an animal. Another thing is that this he said this
was recorded in ninety three and eighty six. His daughter
went to the FBI saying that he was torturing these
women and selling them to Mexico. That's he's been doing

(44:02):
this a while, a while before he recorded this tape.

Speaker 2 (44:06):
Yeah, and that that's kind of what I was getting
ready to jump into juke Bucks and Sean is his statement.
We do this all the time, and they like to
do at least two at a time. So my question is, dude,
how many you know through this, through this ridiculous timeframe

(44:29):
and and then his sick run of episodes, how many
people did he actually harm? You know, during this time?
That's crazy.

Speaker 4 (44:42):
Here's here's another question. And you know, maybe it's easier
when you're in the criminal underworld to figure this shit out,
but like I get fucked up if the grocery store,
you know, how like you go into a grocery store
for years and the aisles are just a certain way,
and then all of a sudden, one you go back
and they switched everything up, and they're like, well, our

(45:03):
produce is over here now, and you're you're fucked up
because you're trying to find the cilantro because it's Taco
Tuesday and you can't find the fucking cilantro now because
they decided to change things up.

Speaker 1 (45:13):
Right, You're familiar with this.

Speaker 4 (45:16):
Right, you guys would be. So how fuck does this
guy find people in Mexico to sell these people to?
How does this happen? Like if I can't go into
a store and I'm searching for half an hour to
find my favorite creamer for my coffee, how does it
by your mind? How the fuck? Like I could see

(45:39):
the kidnapping thing, like logistically, I could see how just
a person that all of a sudden decides to want
to do that could figure that out. But the trafficking
of a human to a place that is, yeah.

Speaker 1 (45:54):
Well, we never like looked into it. I'm sure over
him it was probably not very difficult. I mean, like
we talk about these podunk towns, A lot of people
escape in the law, probably a lot of drug addicts
and alcoholics. Uh, and probably people that are into similar
things that this guy's into. To be honest, I mean.

Speaker 4 (46:12):
Yea like ask ask a buddy, like so hey, if
I wanted to you.

Speaker 1 (46:16):
Know, I know, I know a guy who knows a
guy yeah, that chain league. And on top of that,
these these magazines he got. I mean, think about the
ads in these magazines. I'm sure there were connections that
he made through these magazine ads.

Speaker 4 (46:33):
You mean, it wasn't like the old comic books with
the X ray specs and the cap going.

Speaker 1 (46:41):
For those of you that aren't familiar with porn magazines,
especially back in the nineties and even earlier, there was
a lot of advertisements in them as well, and little
little clip ads and and there's some pretty off the
wall ads in there.

Speaker 2 (46:55):
So I wasn't go ahead, now your normal ads.

Speaker 1 (47:01):
Uh, that's making these BDSM toys and I hey, uh,
you want to happen to know somebody you know and
then just kind of make your connection like he had
ways of making his connections, and that's the only way
I can think of him getting to this point, you know.

Speaker 2 (47:19):
Yeah. I also want to highlight how in his recording
he's he's speaking of training these people right on how
to be or whatever. That's just way too bizarre, you know.

Speaker 1 (47:37):
Right it is. Let's play another two minutes of this.

Speaker 3 (47:45):
It's a animal. I guess I've been doing this for
too long, since I was old enough time girls hands
behind their back. As far as I'm concerned, you're a
pretty piece of meat to be used and exploited. You
may be married, have a can or two, boyfriend, girlfriend,
the job, car payment, and I don't want to hear

(48:06):
about it. It's something you're gonna have to deal with
after you are turned loose. I'm going to point to
never like a sleeve, and I'm sure you don't have
any respect for you here. Your status is no more
than that of one of the dogs or one of
the animals out in the barn. Your only value to
us is the fact that you have in a body that's

(48:27):
like the rest of our animals. You will be fed
and watered, kept in good physical condition, kept reasonably clean,
and allowed to use the toilet when necessary. In return,
you're going to be used, especially during the first few
days when you're new, and you're gonna be kept chained

(48:48):
in a variety of different positions. You're going to get
a real workout because I'm into animals. And it goes
without saying that there's gonna be a lot of on
numerous occasions. You may not like it, but you're sure
going to do it, and that's the easy part. Our
hang ups include stringent dungeon game, nothing serious, but uncomfortable

(49:11):
and sometimes painful. Just a few little hang ups that
we like to use. Now, I've already told you that
you're gonna be here a month or two or maybe three.
If it's up to my lady, we'd keep you indefinitely,
she says. It's just as much fun and less risky.
But personally, I like variety fresh to play with. We

(49:34):
take four or five year depending on our urges and
sometimes accidental encounters. Basically, I guess we are like predators.
We're always looking.

Speaker 1 (49:44):
Occasionally there's a bit of an auto change, but I
think that I don't know if it's the person who
created the recording or not or him, So as far
as that goes, it's one thing. But yeah, he even
said you're a piece of meat to me. I don't
give a you know anything about your personal life very uh.

(50:07):
He is actually known in the town area as a
Satanist which is sounds about right.

Speaker 4 (50:17):
Well, the whole the whole rule of law for satanism
A is do as thou wilt. I mean, that's that's
their major you know, right, first rule of satan club.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
You know, I'm just gonna go back to his what
people referred to him as the toy box killer. Uh
what would I mean? I know, he's a lot of
things are gonna get We're.

Speaker 1 (50:42):
Going to get into it after the recordings, because that's
the nail on the head for this whole thing, is
helping messed up this This toy box of his is yeah.

Speaker 4 (50:55):
Yeah, it opens it up like a chest in a
video game and just the artifacts inside, you know.

Speaker 1 (51:02):
Yeah, and the very end thing that I have to say,
you guys are gonna be like holy shit. But yeah,
he mentions accomplices and that's the thing he had, like,
you know, a group of cult followers. I don't know
whether he paid they paid him off or what, but

(51:22):
you know, he would have people come over to do
things with these women as well on top of Cindy
and him. So I mean it's not like like this
guy had something going like this was his side.

Speaker 2 (51:32):
It's a full scale operation.

Speaker 1 (51:35):
Right, it's just nuts. We got about a minute and
a half less of the left of this. We'll talk
about it, and then we'll get into the toy box, okay.

Speaker 3 (51:42):
Looking Occasionally, some sweet little thing will be broke down
on the side of the road, walking, bicycling, jogging. Anytime
an opportunity like that presents itself and it's not too risky,
we'll grab her, even if we've already got a captive
in the playroom. Variety is definitely the spice of life. Now,

(52:05):
I'm sure that you're a great then you're going to
be a lot of fun to play with. But I
will get tired of you eventually. If I killed every
week idnapped, there'd be bodies strung all over the country.
And besides, I don't like killing a girl unless it's
absolutely necessary. So I've devised a safe alternative method of disposal.

(52:27):
I had plenty of it to practice on over the years,
so I've pretty well got it down pad, and I
enjoy doing it for mind games. After we get completely
through with you, you're going to be drug up real
heavy with a combination of sodium pentathal and phenobarbital. They
are both hypnotic that'll make you extremely susceptible to hypnosis,

(52:51):
auto hypnosis and hypnotic suggestion. You're going to be kept
a couple days while I play with your mind. By
the time I get through brainwashing you, you're not going
to remember a thing about this little adventure. You won't
remember this place or what has happened to you. You'll be.

Speaker 1 (53:11):
That's that's the end of the recording that I can find, So.

Speaker 2 (53:17):
Jeez, Like.

Speaker 1 (53:22):
The hypnosis state at the end is disturbing on top.
I mean, it all is. And even with that, it's like, Okay,
this is seven and a half minutes. Why didn't you
just say don't try to fight? He ain't going anywhere
to settle.

Speaker 3 (53:37):
In, you know.

Speaker 2 (53:39):
I actually, honestly, I think that's part of his process
to get in their head and start you know. I mean,
I think that's the reason for the recording, to prep
them to start to think in a manner that he
wants him to think. And then once he provides them
with the drugs, you know, and he tells them something different,

(54:06):
especially because they're younger, like you said, he brainwashes them
and they wake up in another country like who am I?

Speaker 3 (54:15):
You know?

Speaker 2 (54:16):
What am I? Doing here? What you know, how did
I get you? So that's that's that's that's that's way
worse than gangster. That's that's the next level of stuff.

Speaker 3 (54:27):
Man. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (54:28):
But he's also here's the thing though, Man, he's also
if if you're talking about the sado masochistic culture, you know,
you have your subs and your doms and everything else.
And not only is he presenting as a dominant uh
character in this this play so to speak, he's also

(54:48):
and again I go back to the neck beard thing. Man,
he's very much in love with his intellect. You know,
there's there's a smugness, like if you listen to it,
there's this this sanctimony that is behind everything says like
there's nothing you can do. I mean it's almost like
you seem in like a you know, the pirate blouse,
you know, with a vest and a cane. There's nothing

(55:09):
you can do. You're completely in my control and you
may want to die, but really in the end it
is fruitless. Yeah, I mean, there's really that whole just
it's very gross. So, I mean, you've got a person
who's in love with their intellect. You have somebody who
loves power and control of course he's gonna bloviate for

(55:29):
seven and a half fucking minutes and evolution one hundredercent.

Speaker 3 (55:34):
Dude.

Speaker 4 (55:34):
I think it is part of the processes. I think
it is the primer that gets gets the whole thing
rolling inside of the people's heads. And you talk about
a real mind fuck because he's like, well, if it
was up to her, you'd be dead. But there's a chance.
So yeah, so what does that do to the person, Like,

(55:57):
how do they behave after that? You know, they go, oh,
oh yeah, shove the broken bottle in me. That's hot, right,
you know, because they want to live.

Speaker 1 (56:05):
Right right right? Yeah, I don't know, man, It's it's
nuts that recording, Like being stuck in a room like
that and listening to that would be terrifying. Yeah, I
can imagine it, all right. So this says Race actually
tortured and presumably killed his victims using whips, chains, pulleye straps, clamps,

(56:26):
lake spreader bars, surgical blades, electrical shock machines, and saws
in his torture room. His torture room is what he
called the toy box. So his torture room was a
repurposed soundproofed cargo trailer located immediately outside his Elephant Butte,
New Mexico property. Race stocked the trailer, which he called
his toy box, with numerous sex toys, torture implementced syringes,

(56:49):
and detailed diagrams showing ways of inflicting pain, as well
as a homemade electrical generator to deliver electrical shocks to
his victims. In total, Ray is believed to have spent
over one hundred grand the trailer, fitting it with sex
toys and torture devices. Yeah It also says that Rey
constructed elaborate contraptions to confine his victims, such as a

(57:12):
fur lined coffin and a makeshift pillory. In addition, there
were also elaborate locks and pulleys to prevent his captives
from escaping. A mirror was mounted on the ceiling above
the obstetric table to which has strapped his victims, so
that they would be able to see themselves be raped
and tortured. He has been said to have wanted his

(57:32):
victims to see everything he was doing to them. Ray
also put his victims in wooden contraptions that bent them
over and immobilized them while he had his dogs and
sometimes other friends raped them. There was a part that
I read during his interrogation where he talked about putting musk,

(57:59):
like dog musk on the victims in order to help
their dog. Yeah, do the thing, you know, one of.

Speaker 4 (58:16):
You know, growing up blue collar and working and shipping
and receiving. Even up in you know, central kind of
North Indiana in the summers, it was brutally hot in
those trailers. Now, imagine you're in a trailer in New

(58:40):
Mexico that is lined so it does soundproof and being
trapped out there all day. I sincerely doubt he wired
it for or like did some h VAC and it's
got air conditioning, right, I'm guessing that's a no.

Speaker 1 (58:58):
I don't know. This is This is the inside of it.
It almost looks like a hospital room or like a
like an you know, if you were to go visit
the doctor in a way, if you take away all
the contraptions, uh, and it looks like a doctor's room.

Speaker 4 (59:16):
Yeah. Well, it goes back to what you guys said earlier.
You know, sounds like a doctor explaining some stuff to
a patient. He's got a sexture obstetrics table there, you know.

Speaker 1 (59:34):
Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, I mean he's even got a
hospital gown in the back there. This is a ceiling,
you know, there's there's lots of different tools and equipment that. Yeah,
that's a ridiculous amount of stuff that he's got here.

Speaker 2 (59:53):
Just I mean, he really put a lot of effort
into this sickness.

Speaker 3 (59:57):
Man.

Speaker 1 (59:58):
Yeah, this is uh he talked about, or they talked
about the diagrams and ways of inflicting pain. This is
the wall where he had all that information. Yeah, it's crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
How many years you say he was in business doing
his cup.

Speaker 1 (01:00:16):
The recording was ninety three. His daughter went to the
FBI in eighty six. However, he told his first wife
that the first person that he tortured was in fifty seven.

Speaker 4 (01:00:27):
When he was eighteen.

Speaker 1 (01:00:28):
When he was eighteen grief. So yeah, the last bit
of information that I have yet to hear on anything.
I've listened to her read one of the FBI agents
that was investigating the trailer after the arrest, about five
days in, she comes out of the trailer, pulls out

(01:00:50):
her service revolver, and blows her.

Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
Head off the door.

Speaker 1 (01:00:55):
No, the FBI agent that's investigating the trailer.

Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
Okay, but I state it again.

Speaker 1 (01:01:02):
So during the investigation. After the arrest, they're going through
the trailer, uh, and one of the FBI agents took
their own life. They just walked outside the trailer, pulled
out the revolver, and shopped themselves in the head.

Speaker 2 (01:01:16):
Couldn't believe what they say. Yeah, that is crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
I mean I've never and i've I mean I've listened
to a lot of serial killers and true crime stuff
and read a lot of it. I've never heard of
anything like that Like that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:30):
Is I mean, think about that, though. Man, you know,
FBI agency some pretty gory stuff right over the years.
For them to react in that manner, that had to
be some serious stuff that they didn't want to remember,
you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:01:48):
That's just like no way coming back from what you've
seen kind of thing.

Speaker 4 (01:01:52):
Yeah, now you're looking to the face of face of
the I mean, like when you I mean that that
and the thing is you know, yeah, there's the torture room,
but pictures, videos, all of that stuff, like right, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:02:15):
The breakdown of how to do with you know, the things.
I mean, that's just.

Speaker 3 (01:02:23):
I just I.

Speaker 4 (01:02:26):
Don't understand such evil. I just don't, man, I don't,
I you know, I feel bad if I yell at
my dog too much and they and they whine and
cower and them like, Okay, I went a little bit
too far with the boys. I'm sorry, you know too.

Speaker 3 (01:02:48):
Well.

Speaker 1 (01:02:48):
And that's the thing is, like if you were fishing
at the lake and this guy just walked up on you,
you wouldn't, I mean, my first impression want to be
just oh freaking out. Like, man, if you're just some
family visiting and he's picking up trash on the side
of the road and he just waves at you, like,

(01:03:08):
you wouldn't have even I mean, you wouldn't suspect that
he was doing these things.

Speaker 4 (01:03:13):
No, you just you didn't even.

Speaker 2 (01:03:16):
But yeah, you never suspect that anybody's doing this type
of trip out stuff. But I think in most cases
it's human beings. We have like this mechanism inside of
us that it sends off some type of alert message
like caution, you know, maybe I should keep my distance

(01:03:39):
from this particular individual.

Speaker 1 (01:03:41):
Right, sober sober minded?

Speaker 2 (01:03:44):
Yes, yeah, So I think in most cases, when a
person like that shows up automatically apparent, it's like, hey, son, daughter,
come on over here. We're gonna, you know, keep keep
it tight, you know, uh, handled on you while this

(01:04:06):
person's around us. You know, we don't really know what's
going on with them, but we're going to keep you
right here, you know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (01:04:14):
Well, sometimes those warning signals don't always work. I do
have an ex wife, you know. There's there's this really
interesting book and I would highly recommend it to anybody
who likes reading, ah, anything that has like this topian

(01:04:38):
future type stuff. It's called Swan Song, and it's it's
a very deceptive book because the damn thing is like
this thick, but I read it in three days because
it's so engrossing. But basically the premise behind it is
people start getting these keloids all over their face after

(01:05:03):
you know, the apocalyptic event happened and everybody's just trying
to survive, and they look like rocks, you know, like
Ben Grimm from The Fantastic Four, right, their head's getting
cased in these rocks and they've just got a slip
for their eyes and nose and mouth and that's it.
And in the end, you know, and this doesn't ruin

(01:05:24):
the book because it's so amazing, they basically crack open
like an eggshell and you either are angelic and beautiful
or you look like a freaking demon, right, And the
whole idea is that the world has grown to a
point that the insides are reflected by the outside. So basically,
it's like you can look at him and go, oh,

(01:05:46):
you're an evil piece of crap, you know, like this guy,
you know what I mean. And it just made me
think of it because you said, you see this guy
on the side of the road picking up trash, and
he's like, hey, folks, and you'd be like, oh, hey,
how's it going, you know, and just going about your day,
not never knowing, right, yeah, And it would be so
nice if life was like that, where you could see

(01:06:10):
somebody like that and go, no, you are factually an
evil person. You stay over there. I'll stay over here
right right. And I know that sounds terrible because it's like, oh,
you don't judge a book by its cover. They could no,
like this literally is a manifestation of their evil inherent
you know, so I can avoid that thing. Like we said,

(01:06:33):
this guy just looks like anybody. He looks like anybody.

Speaker 1 (01:06:38):
And the craziest thing is, even though he's called the
toy box Killer, he was never charged with the killing
because they could never prove any of them, like, they
couldn't prove it, They could never prove any of them.

Speaker 2 (01:06:48):
Okay, So the daughter announces in eighty six, yeah, the
things that he's doing, okay. So I'm I immediately thought
about this when you said that the first time. So
there's a football player and a person says that they

(01:07:09):
molested them. Yeah, they're they're immediately you know, taken into custody,
right right, So that's what's happening like today, It's been
happening for years. So back then, in eighty six, his
own daughter made these statements, and it was it was

(01:07:31):
kind of dismissed, like it was, you know, right right then.

Speaker 1 (01:07:36):
And she had to have gone out of her way
because I don't really just know an FBI cut place
to go to I can just right, and she had
to go out of her way to find an FBI
agent to tell them this information, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:07:48):
So so I'm thinking at one point she got pissed
off because she eventually started working with him, right right,
So I think at one point she got pissed off
or frustrated or felt like she was being treated really badly,
and that's when she voiced her opinion in eighty six.
But since nothing was done, you know, he was able

(01:08:10):
to brainwash her into continuing this ridiculous lifestyle, right dude.
Thirty six years man, Yeah, that's a long time and
a lot of people.

Speaker 1 (01:08:26):
To torture and kidnapped. Yeah, yeah, Well, and he talks
about having all this time to like make this concoction.
So like, how many people did he actually not? You know,
he died because of it under his watch or whatever.
I mean, there's not because there's nothing. They can't tie

(01:08:51):
him to specific kidnappings, Like, they can't tie him to
an individual individual that went missing. They just can't.

Speaker 4 (01:08:58):
So getting this guy.

Speaker 1 (01:09:01):
Because the lady who got away, that lady.

Speaker 4 (01:09:03):
That got yeah, okay, so that was the only one
they were able to him on.

Speaker 1 (01:09:09):
Geez. So the kidnapping charges all that, I mean, he
ended up getting like two hundred and fifty years, but
they were because of kidnapping charges and other things. It
wasn't because of death. Even in the recording he talks
about that he had killed some people. But there's no
way to Again, if they can't tie him too a
specific person, they can't charge him.

Speaker 2 (01:09:30):
Well, I mean unless he was completely one of those
clean fanatics. When they did their investigations of all those
devices and tools and toys, they could have at least
came up with some type of estimated amount of people
right through through their investigation and the usage of these

(01:09:52):
you know, props. So I'm thinking that they could have
came up with least a number of possible abilities right.

Speaker 4 (01:10:01):
Right, like like they do in the hotel room investigations
where they turn in the black night and went, holy,
there's so much DNA.

Speaker 2 (01:10:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:10:14):
I think the last bit for me is so the
people that got away, I'm sure that they were some
of them remember things, but you member, you mentioned the
word wave, So you think about these people that are
known for being that way, getting kidnapped, disappearing for an
amount of time, coming back and saying these allegations like
is there prostitutes or anything? Could they not have twisted

(01:10:36):
and said, well, no, they wanted it. We had them,
but they wanted it. You know, I can It's they'd
have to be able to prove that it wasn't consensual.
And I mean again, it's not like you know, you
got to prostitute that disappears on the streets for a
few days or whatever, like that's not abnormal.

Speaker 2 (01:10:56):
So okay, so I'm gonna go back to the agent
that blew their head off, because I think that's very,
very relevant. If they just witnessed this for a few
moments and saw these things and decided to instantly take
their life after that, can you imagine the mentality of
these people that actually went through this process from this

(01:11:18):
person after they've been transported to Mexico, if they did
live or survive, would they even want to speak of it,
you know what I'm saying. Or would they just want
to continue to drug themselves to try to take the
take it all out of their thought process.