The story of Roland Doe w/ special guest Richard-Lael Lillard

Dec. 26th 1973 was a big day in theaters across America. The release of "The Exorcist" had people and movie critics going crazy!
In this episode of Singed Eye Sockets we sit down with special guest Richard Lillard to discuss the story that inspired author Thomas Allen to write the book "Possessed," this is the book that Hollywood used to create the movie.

You can find Richard-Lael Lillard at
Www.thegentlemanpsychic.com

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:12):
How are we doing?

Speaker 2 (00:12):
Everybody?

Speaker 1 (00:13):
Welcome back to JG's Lounge. We're here with another episode
of Singed Eye Sockets, and we even have a special
guest today. Before we get into that, let's introduce our
co host, Evolution.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
How are you today, Hey, I'm doing great. It's been
a wonderful day. Mostly just looking forward to it. You know,
I love these episodes, and I like the conversation and
how the mind wonders when we're gonna get into this stuff.
So looking forward to it.

Speaker 1 (00:42):
All right, Yeah, me too. I did a lot of
research for this episode, and I'm actually proud of myself.
I don't typically do as much reading as I did
for this one. Sean shank Man, how are you.

Speaker 3 (00:56):
I'm good, and I'm good. I've had a good calm weekends,
most of it graden papers, and you know, sitting here
in the quad, it looks like the worst Brady Bunch
episode ever, but you know, definitely pretty Bunch episode.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
That's right, that's correct. Nice, nice diversity here. We got
a good group, and I'm out. Like you said, like
we all know, this is a perception podcast, so I'm
curious where things go with the conversation throughout this our
special guest tonight, Richard Lale, How are you today?

Speaker 4 (01:28):
I'm well, thank you, thank you for having me. I'm
excited about today's topic.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
Yeah, you know. And it's funny because I literally reached
out to you like three days ago and I'm like hey,
and I felt like it was really late and maybe
you'd be too busy. So I'm glad you're joining us tonight.

Speaker 4 (01:43):
I'm honored.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
So do you want to kind of give everybody a
quick brief rundown of who you are what you do.

Speaker 4 (01:50):
Sure? So my first name is Richard Lale. It's one name,
not too If I were Richard, i'd beat eight with that,
So Richard Lalley are the full name, and I am
known as the Gentleman Psychic. I'm a psychic in a medium.
I used to be a psychic in a small but
I gained some weight. I used to do stand up
and then I found to make more money on my back.

(02:11):
But that's neither here nor there. Unlike other psychic mediums
that are all doom and gloomer, love and light, I
am a happy medium. I am here in New Orleans.
I am a world traveler. I am most known for
my my appearances on Ghost Adventures and a few other

(02:32):
television shows.

Speaker 1 (02:34):
Right, yeah, and I actually yeah, and Sean's gonna be
very intrigued by a lot of this too. But I
actually found you on TikTok from one of the Jubilee skits,
and that's kind of how I reached out to you,
because I liked kind of your views and your stances,
and I wanted to get to know who you are.
And I'd like to say that I made a good
acquaintance out of it, and you know, we keep in
touch occasionally here and there, so I'm really glad that

(02:55):
you joined in. And if anybody gets a chance to
check out his profile. You have an immaculate house. Yeah,
a lot of vintage kind of I mean, I don't
even know how to explain it. What would you say?

Speaker 2 (03:07):
It is?

Speaker 4 (03:08):
Well, it's it's mostly sort of my version of the
late nineteenth century, so it is. It's not everyone's aesthetic,
but it is fairly accurate to the late nineteenth century.
It has some different flourishes. Of course, the home that

(03:30):
I actually reside would never have been as grand as
what it appears now, but that's perfectly fine. It's the
century in my mind.

Speaker 1 (03:41):
I wish it was the nineteenth century.

Speaker 4 (03:43):
Still, you know, I'm glad. It's actually I'm really glad.

Speaker 3 (03:49):
Yeah, I'm sorry. I have a question for Richard Leyle.
So you obviously have kind of this aesthetic going on,
you know, the So when you buy things for your house,
first of all, do you one of horror repros for
one and for two when you make selections for your decor?
And this is kind of an offshoot, like away from

(04:11):
what the subject matter is tonight, but I'm fascinated by
what you got going on there. Do you only purchase
things that give you a vibe more than they give
you an aesthetic feel for your home?

Speaker 4 (04:23):
No, I don't think so. I As far as reproductions,
I'm not a big fan of them. There are plenty
of actual antiques that are breathtaking. That said, if there is,
if there is a reproduction and it's good quality, then

(04:47):
I don't have a problem with it. I do have
a problem with things that are not of quality. So,
and here's the deal too, I have there are a
lot of inexpensive nineteenth century items that are they were
junk in the nineteenth century, and they're junk in the
twenty first century, So I do. I'm very specific and

(05:09):
particular in may esthetic.

Speaker 3 (05:11):
Okay, Well, my parents dealt in antiques for years, and
I just I know that when you find certain objects
they have a certain vibe to them.

Speaker 4 (05:26):
Well, there are some energies I do have. I do
have some rather shall we say, spirited items I have have.
I have some rather spirited little marionettes from the thirties
I have. I have one that is he's in my
guest room, and he's probably four feet tall and wears

(05:48):
a top hat and is very pale. And so people
who have stayed the night, if they actually stay the nie,
they oftentimes say, you know, I don't like the way
that he was looking at me. I was hearing a tapping,
there was this green light, and I say, just ignore him.

(06:10):
It's fine, it's not a big deal. Now that said,
I do have some vintage nineteenth century mourning jewelry, mourning
wreaths so that it's wound with human hair. I do
have things that were used in funerals. I have things
that were used in churches and synagogues. So there are

(06:34):
there are some a certain amount of spiritual things that
happen here.

Speaker 1 (06:41):
How do you search for them. I don't think I
asked for the first.

Speaker 4 (06:44):
How do I search for them? Well, you know what
I'm I'm I'm a little bit of a recluse, I
have to admit, and I don't particularly like going to
I like a flea market, they're fun, but thrift stores
are pretty much junk these days. So I know that
once in a while I might go to the flea market.

(07:06):
But lately I find things on Facebook, Facebook Marketplace, and
I find them on I find friends of mine have
certain macabre, dark companies and they specialize in Victoriana, so
I do that. And then of course there are all

(07:27):
all of the classics, eBay, tidbits, some of the other
ones that are a little.

Speaker 1 (07:34):
Bit more and evolution. I'd like to give you a
second if you have any questions for him, but I
did have. Is there one art, one thing that you
possess that you like have most meaning to most meaning
for you?

Speaker 4 (07:48):
Well, goodness, there are so many things that I truly love.
I think the one thing that is it's not this chair.
It's actually there's a throne chair in my front room
which is black Forest eighteenth century, and it is it's tall.
It actually came to me in a roundabout way, but

(08:08):
it was in Los Angeles, and then I bought it
from Orange County. And the story goes that back in
the nineteen twenties, German antiques were not expensive. There was
World War One. Castles were raided and destroyed, and antiques

(08:29):
were shipped in mass to the United States, and they
were not expensive. They were doing anything to survive. So
this one ended up in one of the crazy movie
star homes of the nineteen twenties Spanish Revival. And so
this star that lived there she died, and then about
ten years later, after her death, in nineteen sixty three,

(08:51):
this family moved into the home. Everything was removed, with
the exception of this chair that was in the cellar.
And this young boy who grew up to be an adult,
this young boy loved this chair. It went with him
through two marriages, it went with him everywhere he went.
And then as an older gentleman, he moved in with

(09:12):
his daughter in Orange County, and she hated the chair.
She hated it, She hated it, she hated it, and
so I bought it. I drove down from Pasadena down
down to Orange County and I put it in my
convertible and I drove back. The man was so upset,
You're gonna make a lot of money. My daughter hates
this chair. I said, I'm not going to sell the chair.
I love the chair. But that sort of is That's

(09:35):
how it came about. But there is slight more reason
as to why it's special, particularly to me. So the
family moved in in nineteen sixty four. Nineteen sixty four,
of course, being the year that The Adams Family came
on television sitcom. They came on a show. It's my favorite,
It's my favorite thing in the world. Beyond that, I

(09:58):
was doing theater in the Midwest. I was in a
little little town called Carthage, Missouri, at a little theater
called Stone's Throw Theater. And I recall I was going
on stage. I think we were doing Lost in Yonkers.
It was the play Lost in Yonkers. And instead of
thinking about my next line, or thinking about the next

(10:21):
scene or whatever it was, my little fifteen year old
mind was just a buzz and this image of me
in the future, wearing a suit with a mustache, sitting
in that chair popped in my head. And because I
was living in the Midwest, and because not to date

(10:41):
me too too much. But it was the nineties, and
I remember I was like, oh, no, I can't do that.
That's people will think I'm gay, So I don't want that.
So maybe, oh, you know what, it's the nineties, so
men wear grunge and they wear beanies and they wear flannels. Yes,
that that that, And then I heard the voice of

(11:03):
my friend she played in the show with me. She
is my longest friendship i've had, Brandy. And I heard
her very distinct cadence in my head and she says
to me, well, I liked the first one better, but
I just want you to be happy. But I really
like the first one. And I turn around and she

(11:25):
is looking at me and she's smiling this knowing, sweet smile,
and I went, oh, she hears me, Oh crap, she
hears me. Oh la la l l la la la
l l la. Brick wall, brick wall, brick wall, brick wall,
brick wall. Fast forward all these years. I get the chair.
It sits in my seance room. I call my friend
Brandy and I said, Brandy, I wanted to show you

(11:47):
my chair. She says, well, I told you I liked
the first one better. And I on that topic. By
the way, she's a witch. I said on that topic, Brandy,
remember when we did lost in Yonkers, and I know
I heard you in my head. She said, well, I
love you and I wanted you to be happy, but

(12:08):
also you think really loudly. So that chair is probably
my favorite thing, but there's a lot of favorite things.

Speaker 1 (12:18):
That's a hell of a story. You're behind that chair evolution.
Do you have any questions before we get into this.

Speaker 2 (12:26):
Oh, I mean, I noticed that you're really liking the
nineteen hundreds and the look of the nineteen hundreds. Is
there a reason that the nineteen hundreds draws you?

Speaker 4 (12:40):
No, not really. Like I stated at the beginning, I'm
so glad that we're not in the eighteen hundreds. We're
not in the we're not in the eighteenth centur we're
not in the nineteenth century, where we're not in the thirties,
we're not in the sixties. I am so grateful that
for all of the worst parts of the past, I'm

(13:01):
so glad they're gone. Race relations are better, we have
We couldn't be having this conversation right now. Even fifty
years ago. I called my mother every single day for
twenty years via FaceTime. I could not have done that.
I would have had to write letters back and forth.
And no, medicines are better, people are living longer, the

(13:23):
standard of life is better now than it would have
been all those years ago. But as far as the
aesthetic goes, I like the good parts. I like the
fact that people actually took the time to and care
in their homes and in their everything was art. Everything
was aesthetic. Their clothing was aesthetic, the rooms were aesthetic,

(13:46):
for better or worse. I love the artistry of it. Also,
I love the Adams Family. And there is a reason why,
but that was because my parents were older. Long story short,
my parents or older. They went to the older doctors,
and I ended up by I ended up by reading

(14:06):
the New Yorker magazines. What is there for a seven
year old to read in a doctor's office? New Yorker magazine?
And it was all of the Charles Adams cartoons, and
I was so intrigued. And then when I was in
high school in nineteen ninety one, they were gearing up
for the film The Adams Family that was premiered that year,

(14:26):
and they started showing on Niket Night or was it
TV Land, I don't remember. But they were showing all
of the old episodes, and I fell in love with them.
What I loved was that these this fictional family sort
of got me. They understood my darker esthetic. They understood
that it was okay to be different. They understood that

(14:50):
it was okay to welcome people into your home as
long as they're kind and good to you. It doesn't
matter who you are. You know, they oftentimes talk about
their alt caternative practices that they talk about their friend
in Haiti who's the witch doctor, and they talk about you.
They talk about the neighbors. Well, welcome them in, sir,

(15:12):
have them for tea, welcome in the mailman. You're come
into my home. It's fine. It wasn't that they were dumb.
They were accepting. If you accepted them, they were fine
with you. And that was what I always wanted.

Speaker 2 (15:28):
Nice you.

Speaker 1 (15:29):
You told me about that in the first episode, and
it really got to me because this is like you
don't as a kid, whenever I saw that in his family, like,
I'd never like. I thought it was kooky and funny,
but I never looked at it from that aspect. And
then if you go back and rewatch it even like
the newer ones that they did. It's still the same
vibe from the family.

Speaker 4 (15:50):
It's just love and acceptance and not being not being
bothered by what people outside of the gates think of you.
You'll welcome them.

Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah, okay, let's get into the night show. You guys
ready for this?

Speaker 2 (16:11):
Ready?

Speaker 4 (16:12):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (16:13):
I have one more question, Sean, let's go. Well, it's
a two part question. One you you're located down on Knowlins.

Speaker 4 (16:23):
Right, New Orleans.

Speaker 3 (16:25):
Yes, Next question, do you or do you not like garlic?

Speaker 4 (16:33):
Well, I do not like garlic, and I know what
you're trying to Garlic actually bothers my stomach. I don't
like it, but I'm not a vampire, regardless of what
people may think. The funny thing about garlic is that
originally the vampires were akin to what you would think
of as zombies. They were reanimated corpses, and so when

(16:56):
the Goths the Gothic cathedrals, they would they would put
gargoyles on the edges of these buildings because it took
something ugly to drive away something more vile, something more evil.
And it was the same thing with garlic, is that
the garlic was actually meant Oh garlic stinks so if
garlic stinks, then the vampires don't want bad breath because

(17:18):
they already stink, and so it takes something vile to
drive something even more vile away. That's some vampires. But
I do know actually like garlic, because.

Speaker 1 (17:29):
At one point gingers were actually recognized as vampires.

Speaker 4 (17:35):
Because they don't have souls.

Speaker 1 (17:37):
Right well, I mean the pale scan we burn real easy.
I mean, it's just I don't remember where I read it,
and I'm sure you might know. I mean, it's it's
some time in history, but there is an area in
which at one point they thought Gingers were vampires.

Speaker 4 (17:53):
I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised. Me neither, I am.
I am never surprised by, if I may, human stupidity
and prejudice, I wilcome.

Speaker 3 (18:06):
I Oh, go ahead, ginger.

Speaker 1 (18:09):
No, you're good trying.

Speaker 5 (18:09):
Go ahead.

Speaker 4 (18:10):
Hello.

Speaker 3 (18:12):
I just said, you know, you said take something vile
to drive something more vile away, And I was just
thinking my ex wife would be the ultimate vampire repellent.

Speaker 1 (18:26):
All right, let's get the intrough out of the way here, right.

Speaker 5 (18:36):
Hello, Reagan, I'm a friend of your mother's. I'd like
to help you.

Speaker 3 (18:44):
You polution is drifts.

Speaker 6 (18:47):
I'm afraid you might hurt yourself, Reagan. I see, well,
then let's introduce ourselves.

Speaker 7 (19:04):
Now, kindly undo these stretch.

Speaker 6 (19:07):
If you're the devil, want to make the stretch.

Speaker 7 (19:09):
Disappear, that's much too well. Good display a bark. Where's
Reagan in here with us?

Speaker 1 (19:23):
The Exorcist? We've all I think a lot of people
have seen it. People who aren't even really into horror
know of the exercis. I feel like, has everybody in
here seen the film? Yes, you have not seen the film?

Speaker 2 (19:38):
Really.

Speaker 4 (19:39):
I know about it, but I actually have. I have
the book that came out just before the film over there,
but no, I've never seen that. I know about it,
but I've never seen it.

Speaker 3 (19:49):
I've heard the book is vastly harder to deal with
than the actual movie is.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
I didn't read that either, But yes, it is. Actually
it's and it's not so the Hollywood made a girl.
In reality, it was actually a boy. So there's a
lot of things about the film that are kind of backwards,
and it's actually kind of the mount there's quite a

(20:15):
bit of a difference and stuff that they left out
of the film that did happen to him. So there
is that it is based off of this book possessed
by Thomas B. Allen, which is probably the one that
you're talking about, Richard Leyle.

Speaker 4 (20:28):
Is it It could be, I don't know.

Speaker 8 (20:31):
It would be.

Speaker 4 (20:33):
The one that I have as an old copy from
like nineteen, I don't know, nineteen sixty nine, nineteen seventy,
I don't know. I just looked at it and I
was like, Oh, that's interesting, and then I just put
it on the bookshelf.

Speaker 1 (20:45):
So Tomas Allen became fascinated about the story that we're
about to get into because recently before that a diary
from one of the pre the father bishops, who was
taking notes from every day that they were doing exorcists,
and it was meant to be discreete and kept away

(21:06):
from the public, but it was found in an old
room in an old hospital where they conducted some of
the exorcisms years later and became known to the public,
which is how the film and everything became to light.
Anybody got in question so far or comments or anything.

Speaker 2 (21:25):
The little girl that played in that movie did an
exceptional job. I mean that was that was like some
serious acting. I think that movie had such an impact
on everybody that saw it because of how how the

(21:47):
visuals were the I mean that that was a great
work as far as putting it into a movie and
the results, you know, around that little girl and how
she handle those scenes was just incredible.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
I actually agree with that. And another thing is like
the Satanic panic was actually towards the end around that
time when they released this film. It was December twenty sixth,
nineteen seventy three when the film was released. The budget
for the film was twelve million dollars. They made four
hundred and forty one million off of that film. I mean,
people wanted to see it. People are intrigued by this

(22:26):
kind of stuff, whether they want to admit it or not.
I feel like a lot of people, I think, at
some point believe in it, even if they say they don't.
Like if you can walk into a dark room and
kind of have that back of your mind kind of
fear like could there be something in here with me?
Then at some point, at some point you do at

(22:49):
least acknowledge that there's the possibility for this kind of stuff.
Would you guys agree with that?

Speaker 4 (22:56):
I think it does.

Speaker 3 (22:57):
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to drop no, no, go ahead.

Speaker 4 (23:00):
I think that it still affects people today. You know,
I use the wija board. I do seances, and in
the nineteenth century it was it was people used it
to come together for date night. It was not anything
evil or dark. It was you know, let's see if
anyone's around. It was it was really kind of silly.

(23:23):
By the nineteen thirties, it was losing favor. By the
nineteen forties it had a little uptick, and then by
the nineteen fifties it was it was silly, and it
was it was a toy, and it was only for
crack pots. But by the time you get through the
Vietnam War and then you have this film specifically that

(23:45):
comes out and Reagan contacts Pazuzu via the wija board,
Suddenly now wiji boards are evil and scary, and you know,
I tell people know, any form of spirit coation is
just is it interacting with the neurons and the electrons
in the air maybe, is it your motor neurons maybe,

(24:09):
But it's not about that. If there's a spirit, they
can use any of your energies to speak if they
wanted to. So if your intentions are evil, then you
are going to get evil results. But if not, any
form of communication is communication, right. But I say that
because even when I do seances now I bring out

(24:30):
my Wiji board. I always start with that at first,
and I say light is a feather, and I help
them move the plants shut around to make certain that
they know how it feels, and then I move my
hands back. Sometimes people are into it and they allow
the transfer of energy to spell out words, and more

(24:51):
than on one occasion, I've had people go light light,
you have to be light. Okay, clearly it's not going
to work. You think it's evil. Let's just put that away.
It really is traced back to this nineteen seventy three film.

Speaker 1 (25:10):
You know, it's funny because I was going to mention
the Luigi because it's actually part of this. In eighteen eighties,
after the Civil War, it was extremely popular in the
US for people trying to reach out to their loved
ones that have passed during the war, and it was
common it was commonly used. There's no evil behind it
at the time.

Speaker 4 (25:30):
Not at all.

Speaker 3 (25:31):
The occult was massive back mostly in the day we
use that term, you know, in mediums and seances, I
mean they, you know, the highest levels of society, we're
doing those things, and that's where you started to unfortunately,
because and you know, my stance on this guy is

(25:53):
like that all of this ship's absolutely real, like without question,
I just with the ghost hunts and stuff that I've done,
the shit that I've seen, like it's real, okay. But unfortunately,
the legit folks that were doing these things were overshadowed
by the hucksters who would you know, use the cheese

(26:17):
cloth as like you know, the the ectoplasm and they
would have the tables that had all the gears and
trips and all that shit that you know, they would oh,
your sisters telling you to send me more money. Yeah,
it's it's the today version of you know, my uncle
died when he's leaving you five hundred million dollars like

(26:38):
that kind of shit. And it's just very unfortunate that,
you know, things got twisted and then yeah, this movie
hits and you know, the satanic panic and that carried
over into the eighties too, because if you guys remember
with dungeons and dragons and rock and roll, I mean
Jesus crime and itly you had d Snyder of all people,
in front of Congress testify that you know, the rock

(27:03):
and roll music is not say that's not where the
evil lives. Okay, you know, it's it's in here. It's
it's in us. It's you know, it's as Richard Lele says,
it's it's the intention of the soul and the heart
that puts the evil into it.

Speaker 1 (27:18):
And if you have like any like sort of sort
of Christian Christian background or knowledge of the Christian background.
In the Bible, it says on several occasions not to
contact spirits or you should be stoned to death.

Speaker 4 (27:31):
It's also funny. I don't mean to interrupt you, but
it's also kind of funny because when Jesus was in
the garden of Gassemine, he was seen speaking with Moses
and Abraham, who would have been dead at that point
over a thousand years, right.

Speaker 3 (27:50):
Not to much the fact that Jesus when he drove
this and I thought this was very interesting with you know,
when Reagan said we're all in he here, because that
brings to mind legion, right, and when he put the
spirits into the herd of swine and then they toppled
into the to the sea, which I heard a really

(28:11):
cool take on that. The other day, and I think
it's through some movie that came out was talking about
where the evil in the world is coming from in
the end times, and it's like, you know, we've only
explored five percent of the ocean. Where did Jesus drive
into the ocean? Right? So the spirits and that's why
all this evil shit is in the ocean for me

(28:31):
to triangle all these things. And it's like, Okay, that's
aggregating a bunch of different stories, but at the same time,
it's kind of a cool theory. I thought, I like it.

Speaker 4 (28:41):
I can deal with it. Though I would argue that
Jesus might be the evil one, but well we we could.
We don't need to talk.

Speaker 1 (28:50):
Yeah, that might.

Speaker 3 (28:51):
Actually I'm very interesting in context.

Speaker 1 (28:54):
That would be a good episode, and I actually would
like to do that, like from an open dance on everybody,
you know, just kind of discussing and breaking it down. Actually,
that's a great idea to do something like that in
the future. But with that being said, evolution, you're being
kind of quiet, got anything before I move on?

Speaker 2 (29:12):
No, I'm just I'm just bringing it all in. I'm
paying attention and focusing.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
He writes down notes and he like brings it up
randomly throughout notes.

Speaker 2 (29:21):
Yeah yeah, yeah, so yeah, I'm just keeping track of
everything and processing processing.

Speaker 1 (29:27):
So this is Roland Dough. This is his real name
is Ronald Edwin Huntler was born in nineteen or thirty
five to a German luther And family and Maryland Cottage City, Maryland.
It's he's thirteen when stuff starts happening to him. I
just wanted to show a picture real quick for you guys.

(29:50):
So when Roland's thirteen, him and his grandma are hanging
out in their house January fifteenth, nineteen forty nine, and
they start hearing dripping noises coming from the attic. The
parents and them, they're all looking searching for the drips.
They can't hear it. Around seven o'clock, the drips start
turning into scratching noise, and they follow the scratching noise

(30:15):
into the grandmother's room, specifically underneath her bed, and the
dad's like, okay, maybe we've got, like you, some sort
of infestation. I'll call the exterminator tomorrow. And the noise
continues till about midnight and then just stops. The next day,
they have an exterminator come out. He finds no sign

(30:35):
of anything. He even rips up the floor underneath the
grandmother's bed and puts down poison and leaves. Over the
next eleven days, this continues from seven pm till about midnight,
the scratching noises underneath the floorboards, and then on the
twenty sixth, the scratching noises start appearing in Roland's room.

(30:58):
Now rolling go ahead.

Speaker 3 (31:01):
Seven pm to midnight.

Speaker 1 (31:03):
Yes, every time, Yes, this is several several. So when
I research, I'll let you continue. When I research, I listen.
I'll like listen to podcasts. I'll all research articles online
and I usually won't listen to ones that are kind
of one sided or anything. I'll kind of just throw
that out. So I picked from different sources, but they
all say the same thing.

Speaker 3 (31:26):
Well, okay, so the reason I bring this up, and
maybe with Richard Doyle's experience from your side of of
the thing, I maybe could speak on this with your knowledge.
But you know, time is a construct, right, I mean,
supposedly it's just man made and doesn't is YadA YadA.
I don't agree with that, but it's strange to me

(31:48):
the specificity of time when you when you say specifically
seven to midnight because that gives me a pause because
I know, like from my own world of experiences, there
was a time when my sister was a teenager and
I think I just turned thirteen. There was a period

(32:09):
of a week that and we had some bad juju
and we lived out in the country, back in the
woods behind our house. Everybody that ever stayed at our
house and knew like there was just something and there
was and I for some reason. She had these double
doors you know, that would slide, you know, one way
or the other for her closet. And one night at

(32:31):
midnight on the dot they started banging like this right
and it would continue and it would do that for
like three hours. First night it happened, freaked her out.
Second night, she knew I was heavily into like studying
the colt and all those things, so she asked me
to sleep on her floor. And you know, I knew that,

(32:54):
like any type of experiment, when it comes to stuff
like this, you had to take all the you know,
external factors. So I plugged up all the drafts, you know,
cover the window, put a towel under the so there
were no drafts in the room whatsoever. Because I told
her I said, these are light doors that could be
what's going on, right, and I brought our great day
and Alpha in with us, and guys, I shit, you

(33:16):
not right at midnight on the spot the doors boom,
but like I mean, getting the goose goosey bumps right
talking about it, just bang bang bang over and over.
And the thing was Alpha. When it started, she started
growling and then after a few seconds she just you
know how they do the thing with her help and

(33:37):
they turn it like that. Yeah, And it happened for
a week. It was week, and it never happened again
the entire time we were in the house. So I
have no explanation for that. But the thing that sticks
out to me is just the timing aspect, because it
was right on the damn dot. So you know. So
I don't know if Richard leyle from your experience of

(34:00):
whold things and whatnot, I'm not really I know three
am is like the witching hour, but then when it
comes to time specifics or whatever, I'm not really versatile.

Speaker 4 (34:10):
There is there's a lot of folklore about time and timing.
One of my favorite things is what is in a
lot of mystical folklore A Jewish folklore, it's called the
thirteenth hour, and where the clock will strike twelve. Once

(34:31):
in a blue moon, it strikes that thirteenth hour. It's
this sort of liminal space that doesn't really exist in
this time and space. As far as midnight goes, yes,
a lot of churches were open until midnight. You'd have
midnight Mass and that would be the end of it,
So that that does play into a little bit of it.

(34:53):
There you have at seven o'clock. Of course seven is
supposed to be the holy sacred number. You also have
at seven o'clock. You get it's that twilight, so that
the sun is just just at the horizon typically around
that time of year, depending upon where you are in

(35:14):
the hemisphere. So there's a lot of sort of metaphorical
reasons why it may happen. That's that's what I would
just say on that.

Speaker 1 (35:27):
Anything else said to that, Sean.

Speaker 3 (35:29):
No, I don't. I just it's a curiosity to curiosity
to me because with it being so specific, you know
how I am on these things. It's like those tipcoms
jump out at me, and you know, I know there
are these grander details and things that happen, but it's
like the little stuff like that that make me go, wait,
hold on a second, because but I know what I've

(35:50):
lived through, so that even changes that aspect for me
and I I do.

Speaker 4 (35:56):
I didn't mean in terrupt, but yes, I completely agree
with that. When I lived in Hollywood, I had a
little tiny studio apartment. It was right across from Hollywood forever,
and every morning at one fifty seven, it was not
two o'clock. At one fifty seven, the tumblers on my

(36:18):
doorknob would turn on my on the closet door, and
then thirty seconds later it would creak open. Every single night,
and then my neighbor happened to have been murdered. He
long story short, he was shot in the face by
by a jilted girlfriend on the fourth of July, and

(36:40):
before knowing that he was dead, I saw him standing
by my closet and I went, that's so weird like that,
what is this portal? And then one evening I was
I was lying in bed. I heard the tumblers fall
and I went, Okay, here we go, and I heard footsteps.

(37:03):
It walked right over to the corner of my bed,
and then it gave me a good shake, and I
said Okay, here's the deal. I have been nice, I've
been kind. Now, whatever you are, you have to go away.
When you start affecting my personal space more than just
opening the closet doors, I don't want to deal with this.

(37:25):
The funny thing was the next day, a friend of
mine who was incredibly sensitive to spirits and things, they
come in and they say, wow, it feels so different
in here. It feels nice. I mean, it looks the same.
I don't know what you did differently, but it feels different.
And then oh, well, I told I told my closet

(37:46):
goes to walk away.

Speaker 2 (37:51):
That's simple, space. I gotta go.

Speaker 4 (38:00):
Just about five seconds. I just have to grab a
glass of water. Thirty seconds. I'll be right ahead.

Speaker 1 (38:05):
Yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting that we talk about time though, because, yeah,
with three am being the witching hour, like in in
biblical you in the books and stuff, Jesus was was
actually pronounced dead on the cross at three pm, which
is why three am kind of became the more of

(38:26):
the witching hour, right practice Yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:31):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 1 (38:32):
And that that's when they stabbed him in the side
and realized there was no more blood and he was
he was gone. That's when they pronounced him dead on
the cross? Was that three pm?

Speaker 6 (38:40):
Right?

Speaker 3 (38:42):
You know the Have you guys seen the movie Constantine?

Speaker 2 (38:46):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (38:47):
I love that movie.

Speaker 3 (38:48):
Yeah, it's fantastic, right. I thought the fact that you know,
and I know Hitler, and the way they tied in
like Hitler and his whole trying to track down the
occult stuff, which is another episode all right right into
because good lord, that is so much stepth there. But
the fact that they use the Spear of Destiny, as

(39:09):
you know, the focal point for that, because not a
lot of people that is outside of of their like
scope of vision, because so many other things are attached
to the crucifixion that that's almost a smaller part of it.
So the fact that they ate leaned into that so
heavily I thought was pretty cool as far as the
plot goes.

Speaker 1 (39:29):
Well, while you stepped away, Richard Leila, I was talking
about the Witching Hour and how like and the history
and the Christian belief is that the Jesuits will pronounced
dead on the cross at three PM, which is kind
of how that lore of the three am kind of
became who exists? Is that correct?

Speaker 4 (39:46):
It is partially correct, but also churches oftentimes close. They
have Mass at midnight and then the doors shut her
at three o'clock in the morning. So if you commit
a sin, I'm not Catholic, but if you commit send
at three oh one a m. Then you are out
of luck because now you can't go to confession, you

(40:07):
can't go and light a candle, you can't you can't
have someone pray for you because now you have to
wait until six or seven am.

Speaker 1 (40:17):
Right, and it's not even funnier. In the Catholic church,
you know, being baptized is actually considered a form of
exorcism because you're expelling the demons. Then you're you know,
you're renouncing them. That's the theory. I mean, I didn't
grow up Catholic, but that's you know what I what
I know of it. But let's continue. So on January

(40:38):
twenty sixth, this is eleven days after the scratches start,
they move into Roland's bedroom. Well, Roland screams for his
mother because the scratching now turns to what sounds like
squeaking shoes pacing up and down his bed. So his
mom and his grandma come in and they sit on
his bed and his mom wants to communicate with whatever

(41:00):
it is now. Recently, his aunt Harriet, who he was
closest to past in the late in late nineteen forty eight,
she had passed, and not far long before that she
had visited from Saint Louis and her and Roland were
playing with a Wuiji board. His aunt is a spiritualist.

(41:21):
Spiritualists don't believe that there are negative ghosts. It's just
kind of ghosts kind of help you or spirits help
you communicate and kind of determine your futures. Stuff along that.
I mean, can you maybe touch a little bit more
on that, Richard lyle Well, I.

Speaker 4 (41:37):
Mean, that is true spiritual The spiritualist movement was about
connecting with gods and with daddies and with spirits and
with energies. But they believed that it was not innately evil.
Nothing was innately evil. It was basically your intention. As
far as the squeaking shoes walking around the bed, I

(41:58):
have heard that same thing in this very house.

Speaker 1 (42:02):
Really, all right, see, and that's creepy to me. Like
if I was to hear that next to my bed,
that would actually scare me.

Speaker 4 (42:09):
I'm gonna tell you, I normally don't get frightened. But
there was a time I almost called the cops on
a ghost because I kept hearing running down the hallway
and I'd sit up and it would stop. It was
right after I moved in. I'd lie down, Okay, fine,
it's fine, it's fine. It would stop, and then it

(42:31):
would run again. I'd sit up nothing. And I did
this like three or four times. So I walked over
and I mustard all the nerves that I could, and
I flung the door open and looked out in the darkness,
and I took my phone and I looked under everything,
and I turned on lights as I went all the
way through to the front door, and I looked out
the mail slot. There was nobody. And I turned on

(42:53):
the porch light. There was nobody, and then I and
then I looked out and all the houses around were asleep.
And I was like, okay, fine, okay, but I've heard that.
I've heard it on several occasions, and a few times
I've had to sleep with the night light. Normally I don't,
but I was like, okay, tonight, I think I'm going
to give you a little ghost like.

Speaker 1 (43:13):
You right, Yeah, I would probably do the same thing.
I don't think I would scream and run or anything,
but I would definitely be a little bit more aware
of my surroundings.

Speaker 4 (43:25):
A friend of mine stayed here. My friend of mine
stayed here for a few days while I was away
in I was I was doing another gig in California,
and he came down for one year ago almost he
came down for the Vampire Ball and I said, well,
you could just stay at my house. It's fine. And
I said, you know, I'm so sorry about the neighbors.

(43:46):
I know they can be really loud. I'm sorry. But
he says, no, no, no, the neighbors were fine. It
was the people upstairs that really drove me crazy. And
I went, it's a one story, right, there's nobody up there.

(44:07):
Also the ax Men of New Orleans. His last killing
was just down the street, by the bye.

Speaker 1 (44:15):
From where you were staying at All right, okay, ah see,
there's just so many ways we can go with this
show already. I feel like we got several episodes that
we could do before.

Speaker 8 (44:26):
I'd love to have you one.

Speaker 1 (44:29):
Uh So, after the squeaking noises, so his mom and
grandmother come in. They sit on the bed and his
mom decides Hey, maybe we should try to reach out
and see if this is Harriet. Harriet. And so she asked,
is this you know, whoever is here, is this Harriet?

Speaker 3 (44:48):
Uh?

Speaker 1 (44:48):
Knock three times?

Speaker 4 (44:50):
Uh?

Speaker 1 (44:50):
Now all three of them do report this is hearsay.
Based on the three of them, that's because you're the
only ones in the room. They felt a rush of
wind come down and then a bold three knocks on
the floor. Just to kind of confirm it, she asked
once more time, if this is Harriet knocked four times
and there is a bold four knox on the floor.
After this, the scratching stops, but then it continues, but

(45:13):
not from the floorboard, but inside of the mattress. They
all report feeling claws inside the mattress, scratching, almost like
it's trying to get out.

Speaker 2 (45:23):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (45:24):
Yes, okay.

Speaker 1 (45:27):
So at this point they decide they want to take
Roland to see a psychiatrist and the podiatrists and you know,
meet with the Lutheran minister. The psychiatrist and the podiatrist
say that, yeah, he's a bit high strung, but he's
you know, other than that, he seems like a normal

(45:47):
thirteen year old kid. Go ahead, shown.

Speaker 3 (45:50):
Did you say pediatrist.

Speaker 1 (45:52):
Whatever, a kid's put pediatrician. That's what I said.

Speaker 4 (45:55):
Okay, all right, well obviously it was a pediatrist because
scratching in the bed, right.

Speaker 1 (46:02):
Obviously I'm actually seeing py diatrist because I got my
bunion removed. So there is that. Okay, that's why I got.

Speaker 3 (46:09):
The like, just see this foot doctor going yep, that's.

Speaker 8 (46:19):
Got some pornold going on here.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
But he'd be okay, thank you for hell, thank you
for correcting me. Okay, it was not a correction. I
just like, well, it is because I want to see
a podiatrist.

Speaker 3 (46:35):
Just anyways, flex for parents back in the sixties.

Speaker 1 (46:38):
But yeah, basically both and actually the psychiatrist in in
the forties it was still kind of a new concept anyways.
But they did say, you know, he's a bit high strung.
But besides that, you know, we've got nothing. So they
go to their Lutheran minister, Luther Schultz. I have a
picture of him right here. Yeah, he's a loser named

(47:02):
Luther Schultz. Interesting name, I don't know, a friendly sort,
I don't know. The eyes are a bit a bit creepy.
So Luther Schultz decides he wants to meet you know,
they kind of tell him what's going on, and he says,

(47:23):
you know, I'm gonna come to your house. So he
comes to the house, he does a blessing on everything,
and they put Rolling to bed about eleven o'clock that evening,
and the scratching starts. Luther witnesses the bed at this
point starting to shake. There's a very light shake, but
it's a noticeable shaking. So he's just kind of being

(47:45):
a skeptic. He's like, how about we get him out
of this atmosphere. You guys come stay the night at
my house and we'll see what happens. So his mom
and him go and stay the night at Schultz house
and they stay in his room. He's got two twin beds,
and the mom stays in the guest bedroom. That night,
around midnight, the twin bed that Rolling's sitting on it

(48:06):
starts shaking violently, So Luther Schultz decides, Hey, why don't
you go to sit on that chair in the corner
of the room. So Rolland goes over there, brings his
knees up to his to his chest, and Luthor describes
him as almost going in a trance like state when
the chair starts shaking and then tips over. Now again,

(48:28):
he goes, okay, well, let's try one more thing. How
about you lay on the ground, and he gives him
a couple blankets and a pillow. He has him lay
on the ground and within a few minutes the blank
is slowly starts sliding with rolland on it underneath the
twin bed. And what Luther says is that in his
trance like state, rolland is not moving. He starts to
bounce up and down into the springs below the bed.

(48:50):
He pulls rolling out and he says, Okay, you know,
we need to take you to a Catholic priest. We
need to go somewhere because this is more than something
that I can handle. At this point, I would like
to talk to Richard Lile and get your views on this,
because you know, with the church and everything, and I
know your views on all of this is a bit different,

(49:11):
so I'm curious what you have to say.

Speaker 4 (49:12):
So far, I think I have two schools of thought.
Number One, in the forties and fifties, the psychology was
not what it needed to be, and there was a
lot of blame it on the devil, Blame it on

(49:35):
the devil, blame it on the devil. Blame it on
the communists, Blame it on the devil. There was also
the other thought. The other thought is, if there is
an ancient spirit that predates Christianity and you start screaming
at it to come out in the name of Jesus,

(50:00):
it's probably not going to listen. Number two, number three.
When I was a celebrity impersonator, I would I would
walk up behind someone and I would get inches from
their face, just inches outside of their periphery, and when

(50:23):
they would see me, they would scream. The ones that
would say, oh, hi, Willy Wonka, I would not torment
or tease the ones that would go ah. I would
do it time and time and time and time and
time again. And in principle, if I were spending time

(50:46):
hanging out in the closet and then someone starts asking
me to knock on the door, I'm going to mess
with them. If you start showing reaction to it, I'm
going to mess with you more. And I think that
if there is any kind of spiritual entity that was

(51:07):
attached to this young man, it was being teased and
tormented by someone who a didn't really believe what he
was talking about. Number one, because whether you're a Lutheran
or Baptist or Catholic, it doesn't matter as long as
your intentions and your power and your thought and your
focus is if you have the truth, then there needs

(51:29):
to be no one else. I don't need to send
you over to a voodoo priest or a Catholic priest or.
I don't. I don't need to do that because I already.

Speaker 1 (51:38):
Know and it does. It does actually say while I
was reading into this about in the Vatican, every every
priest actually has a book that does a Catholic priest
do have a book that does talk about in several
chapters about how to handle exorcisms. And it even says

(51:58):
that it has to be a mature a mature father
that is more about not about it's more about how
he carries himself, not about what his knowledge is, which
I think it kind of relates to what you're saying
in the sense that you know what you know, speak

(52:19):
on that, don't you know, try to mess with something
that you don't understand.

Speaker 2 (52:22):
Hey, hey, Jubos, I really want to comment on Richard
Lee just said because it made me remember a conversation
that we had on a previous episode with Sean Shank
and we were talking about the things that we experienced personally,
and I think Sean was talking about something cloudy. Do

(52:44):
you remember that episode.

Speaker 1 (52:46):
Something that happened to you?

Speaker 3 (52:49):
Lots happened to me.

Speaker 2 (52:51):
No, No, when when I think you you've seen something cloudy?
And then later on you're like, well when you've seen
You're like, ah, it's too much for me. I'm gonna
go go back to.

Speaker 3 (53:00):
The yeah mountains of yeah, that one. Do you want
me to tell a story or no?

Speaker 2 (53:06):
No, no, no, I'll just want to And then later you
said your your wife mentioned did she see the same thing?
But it was later did you you didn't talk about
it or nothing? But uh, and I mentioned that I
had an experience while I've seen like a dark image,
and I was like, you know what, I'm not gonna
I'm not even gonna entertain that. I'm just gonna leave

(53:27):
it alone. And nothing happened. But I'm saying that because
Richard Leyle just mentioned about the spirits and if you
know you, uh, I guess if you interfere with them
in some type of way, or you react in some
type of way, then that's when you get a response.

Speaker 4 (53:50):
It's a similar thing to the animal kingdom. Now a
large times what happens when dogs do attack is because
the person has it starts flailing or screaming, and it
triggers that animalistic nature of Okay, I don't know what
this is, and I'm gonna it scares me and to

(54:10):
bite it, as opposed to if you can stand firm,
you still may get bitten, but chances are it's not
going to be as bad as it would have been
if if you're screaming and flailing about.

Speaker 3 (54:25):
Right, I can one concur with that because I can
tell you of in all the ghost hunts and things
that I have been a part of and things that
I've seen with teams of people people freaking out, you know,
I go the opposite way. I'll walk towards this stuff,

(54:47):
and you know, I'm I'm the oh the fuck you did?
You know kind of attitude with that stuff. It's it's
not arrogance. It's just you know, it's like, well, you're
on our plane, and you know, I mean, you know,
let's do this thing. But it is it's very I mean,

(55:09):
it's I think that's very accurate. It's it's just very
much like the animal kingdom, you know, and they go
after where the energy's at.

Speaker 1 (55:17):
So at this point, Schultz sends him home after you know,
doing some prayers on him. The mom does and him
do both report that he was thrashing during the prayers,
not very happy about him. And over the next several
days things get a little bit worse for Roland, even
even at school. He's still going to school, and even

(55:39):
some of his classmates and teachers report him being sitting
at his desk and the desks start shaking violently, papers
in the classroom flying off random desks, and even scratches
start appearing on him and in forms of almost what
looked like letters. So they get in touch with this

(56:02):
gentleman right here. He is a local Catholic preacher. He
is twenty nine years old. This is father Edward Hughes,
and Schultz kind of goes over what he witnessed, and
Schultz or Hughes says, okay, you know, bring him here,
let let us meet him. And Hughes's first impression of

(56:23):
Roland when he enters his office is that the room
gets very cold and that there's just kind of a
very negative energy coming off of Roland. He also discusses
that this is according to his wording, is that when
Roland approaches him, he says, O, Priest of Christ, you

(56:45):
know I'm the devil? Why do you keep bothering me?
And he says it in Latin.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (56:51):
Yes. So that's the very first encounter he has with Roland.
And at this point he, based on the information that
Schultz gave it, Hughes decides to reach out to the
local diocese and says, I think that we are in
the verge of of an exorcism, you know, of the
need of an exorcism, because in that exorcism there's actually

(57:13):
four different stages. Are you familiar with this, Richard leyle.

Speaker 4 (57:18):
I'm not Catholic, so probably not. I was.

Speaker 1 (57:21):
Yeah, I didn't know. Maybe you just kind of knew
the knew the Yeah, we've talked about that a little bit.

Speaker 2 (57:25):
I do.

Speaker 4 (57:26):
I do know a little bit, but I will tell
you it was a good thing that he did pay
the priest, because otherwise he would have been repossessed.

Speaker 8 (57:41):
All right, good, No, heck of a show guy.

Speaker 3 (57:48):
Well here I have a couple of questions before and
here this is coming from me as I am a
staunch believer. Okay, but I am. I'm also skeptical about
things because first of all, like the Latin thing. You know,
it's like, oh, he said in Latin, so of course
it must be true. But this is back in the
nineteen forties, right right, Okay, so they were still teaching

(58:10):
Latin in the school curriculum if I'm not mistaken. So
that's not too far out of the realm of possibility
that the kid me, you know, Latin for one. For two,
the fact that he's straight up coming out saying I
am the devil, like the devil not Asrael or you know,

(58:34):
I don't.

Speaker 4 (58:34):
Know whatever yells above has another devil set aside for it. Yeah,
do you know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (58:41):
It's just like it's like I'm swinging for the now.
He could be Okay, I'm not saying that it's not,
but doesn't it seem a bit suspect that it's you know, yeah,
top tier.

Speaker 4 (58:54):
It's the novel title. Devil is not a devil is
a title. It's not the you know, haciton means the satan.
Devils are devils different.

Speaker 1 (59:11):
Yeah, it doesn't want it doesn't specific entity. It's just yeah,
just a basic term.

Speaker 3 (59:18):
I mean, like you start stacking that stuff up, and it's.

Speaker 1 (59:20):
Like hm hm hmmm. I agree, And that's why, you know,
that's why I like, I wanted to bring on here
because I think that from from the perception of it,
you know, can it be scientifically you know, disproven or whatever.
So So there are four stages of extorsiesmen, I did.
I did find the information on The first the infestation.
This is the haunted house type stuff, footsteps, poltergeist, voices, apparitions, uh,

(59:45):
you know.

Speaker 7 (59:45):
Not.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
More bugging the family, you know, not necessarily attached to
anything in particular. The second is oppression activity steps up
with physical attack sleep. Go ahead, go ahead.

Speaker 4 (01:00:02):
Oh no, I'm just counting. I'm to see what I'm
trying to see what where I am in the stage
of possession.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
Okay, So oppression is activity steps up with physical attack, sleep,
disturbances including regular nightmares, frequent severe illnesses, and major depression
and anxiety, severe financial or employment of problems. Basically you
almost kind of start to feel sick or drained or
you know, just not your normal self. Third is obsessions.

(01:00:32):
As the name implies, at this stage, the affliction or
the afflicted person has a hard time functioning being constantly
preoccupied with thoughts of the demonic activity commanding is his
or her life, and frequently with thoughts of suicide as well.
Sleep becomes nearly impossible.

Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
Now.

Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
The fourth one is possession. Contrary to popular belief, possession
is not demons entering a person's body and taking over
his or her soul. A person's free will is never removed,
only severely compromised, and the possession a person is so physically, emotionally, mentally,
and it's spiritually broken down by going through the other
three stages that demonic spirits are able to seize occasional

(01:01:09):
control over that person's actions. I want I wanted to
bring those in here because I thought that that was
very interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
You know what I thought was very interesting about that?
Go back to number two real quick. Yeah, I'm looking
at this and I'm hearing what we're talking about and
all that. Uh did it tell you something about finances?

Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
Yeah? Severe financial or employment problems and relationship problems?

Speaker 2 (01:01:40):
Holy crap? Are you serious? Interesting that that? I mean,
of all the things that we've been talking about, and
what the what.

Speaker 4 (01:01:52):
The money?

Speaker 7 (01:01:53):
Right?

Speaker 6 (01:01:53):
I mean?

Speaker 2 (01:01:54):
Is it is it interesting to everybody else that that's
in there? As well.

Speaker 3 (01:01:59):
They caught.

Speaker 4 (01:02:01):
It doesn't surprise me, right, Yeah. Also, when you think
about even sort of the televangelist, they're seen as wealthy
and rich and if God loves you, you are going
to be financially blessed.

Speaker 3 (01:02:15):
Prosperity preachers.

Speaker 1 (01:02:17):
Well and see, and I grew up Pentecostal, and I
remember my parents devoutedly sending ten percent of their paychecks
to the church, sometimes more, and we're struggling, you know,
and even on more than that, we're jumping around churches.
So it's like, where's this Why you're investing in something
that you're not even sticking with. And usually we're jumping
around churches because the pastors say something that we don't

(01:02:41):
agree with. Like, for example, one of my cousins turned
eighteen decided they were gay. Well that's not okay, so
we should probably switch up churches. After they spent two
weeks trying to convince her she wasn't gay, and she
was still gay, So they decided to switch up churches
to find one that was okay with that. And I
mean it's just I mean, if you're gonna have faith
in something, I mean you better commit to I mean

(01:03:03):
commit to it at least commit to. I have a
lot more respect for somebody who could come to me
and have a strong conversation about their religious beliefs uh
than somebody who goes well. I didn't like his views
on that because it affected me, so I went somewhere else.
I think he says a lot. I mean, you know,
and there's a lot of hypocrisy in in a lot

(01:03:23):
of religions in my opinion, especially what I came from.
And I'm sure Richard Leyle, being Pentcostle, you could probably
relate to a lot of that too.

Speaker 3 (01:03:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:03:36):
If you're not speaking in tongues and then you're not
doing it right, you know you need more help.

Speaker 3 (01:03:42):
I have for for Okay. So when I was trying
to be indoctrinated into the Southern Baptist world when I
was living in Tulsa, my ex wife took me to
her sister Tory's church and they were heavy, like speaking

(01:04:03):
in tongues and the raising the hands in the air.
And I told my Ax, I'm like, I am not
into this because I said, it's it is BS. I said,
it's all a competition with them, and she goes, what
do you mean? I said, Watch when the preacher starts
getting going right, and so we started getting going to

(01:04:23):
one lady's hand went up and I said, no, watch,
I said, somebody's going to put two hands.

Speaker 4 (01:04:27):
Up because walking up is enough.

Speaker 3 (01:04:31):
And I shit you not. As soon as I said that,
a lady on the other side of the aisle both
hands all right, And I said, now watch, somebody's going
to start waving around, you know, like they're a hip
hop concert. And I said, and it's going to escalate,
and somebody's going to be in tongues and you know,
and so and and it just and it happened that way,

(01:04:51):
and I was like, this is this is human psychology.
This isn't religion, right, It's a competition.

Speaker 4 (01:04:58):
And sometime sometimes spirits can whether they're negative, whether they're
whether they're demons, whether they're angels. Sometimes that human motion,
that is a lot of yes, sometimes that psychology. Sometimes
it does break through. Sometimes sometimes that is the stronghold,

(01:05:21):
that energy is neat. Sometimes it's the person and not
actually the level.

Speaker 5 (01:05:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:29):
Right, So uh, the archdiocese gives Hughes permission and again
this is a younger priest, and he decides to admit
him to a local Catholic Church Hospital so that he
has some like nuns and some other support when he's
doing the exorcism. During the exorcism, while he is he

(01:05:55):
puts a pendant on the pillow and he starts doing
the Holy water and reciting the scriptures. Roland gets out
of his restraints. He removes one of his hands from
the restraint, grabs a spring from underneath the bed, rips
it out and jabs it into Hugh's shoulder, going all

(01:06:15):
the way down to his wrists, to which he has
to stop the exorcism running out of the room. He
ends up having to get one hundred and forty stitches
and his arm is never fully recovered. Now, if you
remember what I said earlier about exorcisms, it should only
be conducted by somebody who is mature and it is
more in the right mind. And clearly maybe that could

(01:06:37):
have been a part of it. Now, that's assuming that
you're under the understanding that that's how it's supposed to go.
But then the you know, things get worse. Over the
next few weeks, this scratching becomes more violent. He starts
levitating scratching and words start forming on him, almost words

(01:06:57):
not quite to the point where they can make out
what they're saying. Uh, and and it continues for let's
see here. Sorry, I'm kind of talking faster than I'm
reading here. Okay, yes, one night, if you would. A
few days later, Roland's chest gets scratches that spell out

(01:07:19):
the word Lewis. Now, recently, his parents were discussing moving
to Saint Louis, where his family they have family and relatives,
and this just kind of confirms, Hey, maybe we should
pack up and move to Saint Louis. Maybe there's some
sort of connection here. So they move in with his
dad's brother and Bellemore, Missouri, which is a suburb of

(01:07:41):
Saint Louis.

Speaker 3 (01:07:42):
What you got, Sean, Why the fuck would you go
to the place where the devil just gps you two?
You just put in it and you're like, yeah, we'll
we'll go to that place.

Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
I was thinking of. But you said, it's.

Speaker 4 (01:08:00):
Also a funny thing too, that the devil would want
you to go to Saint Louis, which is named after
the Catholic French king who became a Saint Louis, by the.

Speaker 3 (01:08:13):
Way, couldn't even write the word saint.

Speaker 4 (01:08:16):
Yeah, you would think that the devil would have wanted
to go to some place like Saint Anne or something.
If you're going to a Saint anyway, you might as
well go to Saint Anne.

Speaker 3 (01:08:27):
Somewhat trump.

Speaker 1 (01:08:31):
So they move. In March of nineteen forty nine, the
family moves to Saint Louis and stays with his uncle
and his cousins live there as well, and his cousin
is going to a Catholic school there in Saint Louis.
And after witnessing some of the things that have been happening,
she approaches one of her teachers, a professor, Father Raymond Bishop,

(01:08:55):
which I have a picture of him as well. Let's
see here. I thought throwing pictures in there would bring
a little bit more no no interest to it. So
that's him. It seems seems like a pretty pretty straightforward
Guy's so Bishop, let's see here, Uh visits his home,
visits the home that night. Actually he agrees to come

(01:09:17):
and meet with him. Uh, go ahead.

Speaker 4 (01:09:22):
So so this this priest was told there is a
young boy of thirteen on the precess.

Speaker 1 (01:09:32):
Let's go.

Speaker 4 (01:09:43):
The catechism.

Speaker 1 (01:09:51):
Let's good.

Speaker 2 (01:09:52):
That was great.

Speaker 1 (01:09:56):
Oh, so Father Raymond Bishop decides to go to the
house and he also brings one of his colleagues, father
William Bowdren to Bowder and Bowden. I'm not really sure
how it's pronounced. We're just gonna say boded. It's probably bowdern.
We're just gonna, you know, go with it. Uh. So
they go to the.

Speaker 4 (01:10:17):
House bowdering boy.

Speaker 1 (01:10:24):
So when Roland goes to bed, they stand and watch
him for about an hour and nothing happens. Now, as
soon as soon as they leave the room, uh, Roland
starts to scream. They're stumping and banging. So they re
enter the room and witness him sitting in the middle
of the bed. The bed is shaking violently. They start
sprinkling holy water. It stops, so then they leave the

(01:10:48):
room again, and immediately after this starts shaking violently again,
and they enter the room and at this point Roland
is screaming so loud. He rips open his pajamas and
starts seeing fresh claw marks from the inside out, scratching
and creating blood claw marks on his chest. Mm hmm,

(01:11:11):
that's year. So then they both William Bowden and Father
Raymond Bishop both decide this kid is not quite in
a possession state, but he's definitely got the signs of
you know what needs to be exercised. What you got,

(01:11:32):
you got anything so far?

Speaker 4 (01:11:35):
I mean you've got clawed claw marks from the inside out. Yes,
you've got shaking beds, you've got levitations. I think he
might be at the early stages of possession.

Speaker 1 (01:11:51):
Oh, it's exactly what I was about to say. Oh
my god.

Speaker 3 (01:11:55):
Yeah, and I don't know what other proof that they need,
and like the aliens coming from the side out with
the clause that would Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:12:03):
And according to the to Boden and Bishop that the
possession would have to be that the demon has fully
taken control and in points where he is you know,
creating violent words and stuff like that. But earlier on,

(01:12:24):
like like he did talk to one of the the
former pastors in Latin. So yeah, I mean you would
think he's already at the full point of possession. Well,
so they reach out to the archdiocese.

Speaker 7 (01:12:37):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (01:12:38):
And at this point they go to Washington, d C.
To a it's called the Alexion Brothers Hospital. It's it's
a more confidential hospital that is also like a Catholic school,
and they decide to start performing an exorcism on.

Speaker 2 (01:12:56):
Him there.

Speaker 4 (01:13:00):
Exercise the demons why, because they don't want fat, sloppy
demons when they're doing their hauntings. You have to jazzer
size those things so they fit a nicer in those
little bodies.

Speaker 1 (01:13:16):
So on March sixteenth, he is admitted to this hospital,
and Bodron had already expressed to the Arsidiocese that he
did not want to do it, but the options that
they had, he was the only one that could based
on what we've already discussed. So he does prepare for it.

(01:13:36):
He fasts and does his prayers and whatever before conducting
this first exorcism on March sixteenth. Now, when Roland goes
to bed, For about the first two hours, Boden is
praying and Roland's tossing and screaming, the bed shaking. Every
time Boden would say the word Lord or God, new
scratches would appear on him. Bodron then addresses the demon,

(01:13:57):
demanding it to tell him his name, and the letters
H E L L appear across his chest. Huh uh,
Voteren asks again when the demon plans to leave, and
the letters g O appear on his stomach, along with
the letter X on one of his legs. Now, the
Roman numeral X is ten, so voter assumes that it's

(01:14:23):
ten days, which which is correct. As this continues over
the next nine days until Roman's going to bed, or
Roland goes to bed, they are there doing exorcisms every
night for the next nine days. On the tenth day,
when they're doing the exorcism, there is thrashing and the

(01:14:43):
bed does shake, but Roland seems to be in a
trance state and not doing anything, not really reacting, and
they decide at the end of it, you know, maybe
maybe he's gone, but you know, we don't know. It's
been the it's the tenth day, so they do send
him home as an experiment to see if everything's fine.
And for the next four days nothing happens. Roland seems

(01:15:08):
to be just a normal boy. And then on that
following Thursday, which is four days after, Roland starts to
feel sick and he tells his mom and his dad, Hey,
you know, I don't feel good. We'll go lay down,
and he says, and he demands that they all follow
him upstairs. The witnesses his family said that as soon

(01:15:28):
as he sat on the bed, his eyes slam shut
and he started riding on his bed with his finger,
And then a voice that was not Roland's said, where
is it? I got it in here? I'm talking faster
than I'm going. It says, I will stay ten days
but return in four. If you stay and become Catholic,

(01:15:49):
it will stay away. You may not believe me, and
Roland will suffer forever. And this is a voice that
comes from Roland while he's in this trance like state.
What have we got so far?

Speaker 4 (01:16:02):
How can we be be a Catholic? The archdiocese let
this thirteen year old boy around these old frees.

Speaker 1 (01:16:14):
Well, it's kind of like where you can kind of
coake somebody into into the belief of things happening. So like,
I mean, just being in the surrounding of what's going
on in these exorcists. You know, the boys absorbing this
information too. It's not you know, he can he could
if he is under the let's say he has a
mental psychosis. This could be kind of entire I don't

(01:16:40):
know what were fueling the flames.

Speaker 4 (01:16:41):
Well it would be you would be you're basically telling
the child what to say. You're telling him, oh, you know,
this is the only church, this is the only way out.
This is the only way out and after ten days
of what amounts to absolute torture. Regardless of whether it

(01:17:02):
was a demon in there or not, it's ten days
of torture in a boy's body. And when people are
under any amount of duress, they they do all manner
of strange things.

Speaker 1 (01:17:16):
Right, What do you guys got.

Speaker 2 (01:17:19):
You go to?

Speaker 3 (01:17:22):
Sounds to me like they need to get a good
conjure woman from down south to take care of it.

Speaker 1 (01:17:31):
Is that what you want?

Speaker 2 (01:17:33):
Well, well, i mean I'm just from start, from start
of this story to now, I mean, this of course
gradually gets worse, but it's traveling around the country with
this this boy. So I mean, what what way would

(01:17:53):
you be able to visually have some some scratching from
the inside, you know, and words showing a point.

Speaker 3 (01:18:02):
Yeah, that's the one that I'm hanging up on too,
because everything else, I mean.

Speaker 4 (01:18:09):
I'm actually I'm a little bit on the opposite end
of that. I do believe in those things, but at
the same time think that sometimes when there is a
certain amount of pressure that is applied to the body
in certain times you can scratch yourself and then get
really angry, and that that extra blood pressure is going

(01:18:30):
to cause that wealth that was initially there to be increased.
That's my thought on it too. I just think it's.

Speaker 3 (01:18:40):
Well, if I can quote the dust till Dawn, I
don't care how crazy a motherfucker is, they don't explode
when sun hits them.

Speaker 1 (01:19:01):
So and for me, like I basically what I said,
just kind of back up what I said. I think
that to this point, there's a lot of things that
could fuel the fire to make it. Whereas especially if
he uh could maybe he has ADHD or some sort
of some maybe he's not very well known in school
or liked. He's the only child is and and the

(01:19:24):
only people he relied on was his family. He was
really close to his aunt she passed away. So now
he's just almost sort of in this depressed state, tries
to get and so like it's almost like they're piecing
together their own assumptions of what's going on. You know, Oh,
he messed with the Ouigi board, so maybe that's what

(01:19:45):
it was. Now now you know he allowed this thing,
And now I do think that in a sense messing
with a wige aboard and Richard Laila, I'd like for
you to kind of talk about this, if you don't
mind if if you're in the wrong mindset, can you
invite a negative Is it possible to do that?

Speaker 3 (01:20:06):
I think so.

Speaker 4 (01:20:07):
But it's again, it's not just about the Ouiji aboard.
It's not anything can be abused. Medicines can heal, Medicines
can make you an addict and take everything that you've
you've worked for, can even take your life if they're abused.

(01:20:28):
Can anything be an open letter to the devil? Yes,
I think so. But I would anyone who would be
wanting to play with the spirits in any form, I
would say, first of all, there are rules to go by.
You don't just open your house and say hey, everybody,
come into my house. You over there with the crack pipe,

(01:20:50):
come on in. You don't do that because you're you're
you're inviting these things that are negative. So you have
if you have a party house, you have a guest list.
These are my friends, these are their friends. I trust
these kind of people. These are the ones who are
welcome in this world. And and it's the same thing
with the spirit board is that sometimes people think it's

(01:21:11):
a game and they're messing about and they are opening doors.
Maybe they shouldn't open there are there are innate psychics
and they don't even know that they're psychic.

Speaker 1 (01:21:25):
Yes, yeah, I can agree. I definitely agree with that
because I feel like there's and even Sean you've mentioned,
you know, even seeing things like I feel like at
a point, if you accept that it exists, then you're
probably going to be more innate to to kind of
see it. And depending on how how much and how

(01:21:46):
intrigued you are, maybe the more you're gonna witness it.
But I mean, you hear people, you know, mediums and
stuff you say that they never really asked for it.
It just kind of exit, you know, became.

Speaker 3 (01:21:59):
So yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:22:02):
Okay, So after you know, the four days and it
comes back. For the next two weeks, they're doing the exorcisms.
Roland is now having bloody lesions every night. The shaking
has become more violent. He is now starting to become
distort when he's when he's thrashing in the bed, bending

(01:22:22):
in unhuman like positions, and he starts to look different.
His stomach becomes distended and he almost looks, you know,
ill he doesn't. He doesn't look like he starts not
looking like himself. After eighteen days, on the eighteenth day
of this continuous from it coming back, Bowdern decides that

(01:22:46):
he's going to do the exorcism in English instead of Latin.
When Lucid. During the exorcism, there were bouts where Roland
would be Lucid and he would pray and hold a
crucifix to himself. And when he was not Lucid, and
when he was in the trance like state, he would
start spitting, he would masturbate, he'd piss on himself, start

(01:23:09):
throwing out the curse words directed towards the pastors. And
when voter decides to direct address the demon directly, h
Roland arches to a point where his shoulders practically touches ankles.

(01:23:34):
Around ten forty five pm, the room goes silent, and
Roland starts to speak in a new voice, uh and says, Satan, Satan,
I am Saint Michael, and I command you, Satan, to
leave the body in the name of Dominus, which Dominus
means God. And I believe Greek.

Speaker 8 (01:23:52):
Is that correct?

Speaker 1 (01:23:53):
I don't know. I'm pretty sure it's it's Greek. I'll
look into it later, but it does. I don't mean
God in a certain language immediately now now, now, Roland's
body starts twisting wildly for several minutes, then stops, and
Roland comes out of his trance and says he's gone.
And from that day forward he never had any more

(01:24:14):
issues and just randomly stopped. After that. He did grow up,
get married, have kids, became a rocket scientist actually, and
passed away in the eighties. So what you guys got,
What's what's your guys views on this whole thing.

Speaker 2 (01:24:37):
It's a lot to consider, to say the least. So
the time frame from the very beginning to the very end,
how long was that?

Speaker 1 (01:24:50):
That was the end of March, so two months. It
looks like it was about two months long.

Speaker 2 (01:24:54):
Two months long, with a lot of stuff going on
in between, moving from one place to another, one place
to another.

Speaker 4 (01:25:02):
At the end of World War two, by the way,
nineteen forty five, it was just a few years before.

Speaker 2 (01:25:10):
So I'm just thinking, you know, it's a lot to
consider when when definitely nothing like this happens every day.

Speaker 4 (01:25:22):
I mean, it does for me, but that's well.

Speaker 2 (01:25:26):
Well, okay, I give you that, But to this extreme,
I'm thinking this is a rare occurrence. Would you agree
with that?

Speaker 1 (01:25:39):
I actually I would not. And the reason I say
that because even in the Catholic Church, I mean, if
we want to keep going back to your religion and Christianity,
Catholicism falsesm being so dominant as they like to think
they are. They even have plenty of people who are
like ordained to exorcisms. They happened around the world, and

(01:26:02):
then a lot of them even today talk about how
they've done thousands and thousands of them.

Speaker 4 (01:26:08):
I think I think it still is a little bit bullshit.

Speaker 1 (01:26:12):
Pardon my language, no bringing on. Did you hear Sean
this whole episode?

Speaker 4 (01:26:17):
I think that I think that as long as people think,
as long as they give credit to this analgemist devil,
then they're going to get what they're asking for. I

(01:26:38):
am not Pedecostal anymore, but I liked in the fact
that there was the Pentecostalisms that they would roll on
the floor and they would have their exorcism as they
would do these things and then they it was sort
of even though it was pageantry, the pageantry seemed to
heal these people of their afflictions. It was pageantry, was
it real? Who knows? There are emotions were real?

Speaker 6 (01:27:01):
Right?

Speaker 4 (01:27:04):
I don't see very many people who don't believe in
the devil getting possessed of a devil. And I also
don't see people of different ways who don't believe in
you know, I don't necessarily see Hindus getting possessed of
the devil right now. I do see them on occasion.

(01:27:25):
You'll see where they will roll around in the temple
or there may be these things. Is it the devil?
Maybe not? I don't. I don't. I think the devil
gets too much credit.

Speaker 1 (01:27:35):
M yeah, it's fair.

Speaker 6 (01:27:38):
Now.

Speaker 1 (01:27:38):
Now, as far as as evil entities, I mean, do
you believe that they exist? I believe.

Speaker 4 (01:27:46):
It's It's complicated. I will say that humans. I wish
I could say that humans are kind, but humans are
not kind. We do unspeakable things to animals in farms
for our food. We do unspeakable things to animals, to

(01:28:11):
cruel things to test makeup and shampoo. Humans are not kind,
not by nature. Is there evil? Yes, because humans exist.
I think, however, that by focusing on it and the

(01:28:33):
dichotomy of this is good and this is evil and
the twain shall never meet, I think it's unbalanced, and
I think it causes more mental illness.

Speaker 1 (01:28:45):
I can agree with that what's yes, Sean?

Speaker 3 (01:28:51):
Well, I mean, you know, to summarize so much of
this into one the same statement would be, you can't
do it. I mean, is there good and evil? I
do believe there's good and evil, you know. I think
it exists in all people, you know, and we make

(01:29:16):
choices every day to do good and to do evil,
and sometimes you know, one wins over the other, and
God willing or whatever entity you subscribe to, we pick
the good more than we do the evil, you know.
That's what would make the world a better place around

(01:29:36):
us for all entities concerned. Do I think we understand everything?

Speaker 6 (01:29:44):
You know?

Speaker 3 (01:29:44):
Absolutely not. You know, there are quantum realms and all
kinds of things that we can't even possibly begin to
understand with the limited amount of knowledge that we have.
You know, I've heard people talk about cryptids and Bigfoot
not even being actually an evolutionary missing Lincoln is actually
a you know, dimensional being, and that's why we can't

(01:30:07):
see do you see what I mean? It's like And
in that possibility, it's like, well, we just we don't know, right.
I know the things I have seen over the years,
I know the things that I physically felt. I know,

(01:30:28):
you know, like when we did the ghost hunt on
the administration building for the South Pacific Theater that one
of our guys uh got scratched, you know, and he
got to three right, that's all it happened. I know.
We we did the Mischawaka Demon House. One of the

(01:30:50):
girls that was with us right outside because she got
her guts twisted and she peeked all over the sidewalk
and she to to the physical touch where she got
her guts twisted. It was like hot, right, and it
was red. You know, different things, just different things. And

(01:31:10):
you know, as far as what I think we should
focus on believing in is believing in whatever would benefit
those around us. You know, if you're a Satanist and
you follow, I think, what is what is it to do?
Is thou wilt? Is that correct?

Speaker 4 (01:31:30):
I mean, that's it's paraphrasing. I know Alista Crowley was
not a Satanist. It was do it, do what thou wilt?
Shot be the whole of the law. And then it
goes on to say something about all of this under love.
But you know, I I I don't subscribe to the

(01:31:54):
Church of Satan or the Satanic Temple. I I don't
that's that's another topic. But I do what thou wilt
shall be the whole of the law. Given something under love,
I can't remember.

Speaker 3 (01:32:06):
What it is, okay, you know, and I think the
individual takes that and does with it, does with it
what they will, right, you know, just like there's a
lot of the you know, I've read the Tora, I've
read the Quran, I've read the you know, the category

(01:32:27):
like I've studied other religions around the world, and I
met best. I would be called a red letter Christian
because most of the Bible that I've seen I kind
of just take and go nope, because it seems to
be silly to me, you know, just like the two
daughters sleeping with their dads so they can continue the

(01:32:47):
line of the family. It is just like, you know what,
I'm just gonna pay attention to the good parts where
it talks about love and everything. Right, so I believe
there's that side of things. But just like the Yin
and yang know there, you know, we live in a
universe where everything has an opposite, right, so if you
have good, you have evil. Balance. Right now, as far

(01:33:12):
as this particular subject goes, I'm kind of with Richard
Lale On this one, there just seems I think it's
a mix. I think maybe something got in right because
of what this person was going through and allowed something in.
But there's so much of it, there's smacks of bs

(01:33:34):
that even as much as I'm like, yeah, this stuff
totally exists, I'm having problems with this story. And I
was having problems from the jump.

Speaker 1 (01:33:43):
Yeah, And actually that's kind of where I was going
to go, is you know, going from somebody who's Pentecostal.
You know, I'd go to church and then I'd come
home and get beat by my stepdad, you know, very hypocritical.
I was very outcast at school, and I remember the
day that my mom decided to leave, and I remember
how eye opening it was that the world wasn't how

(01:34:06):
I had lived it for seven years, you know, And
I feel like that could have gone opposite. Now, I
could have taken the abuse and gone with it and
became that person. And I feel like in the in
this case, you know, he's very close to his aunt
who's a spiritualist, and then you got his family that's
very religious. His mind already could have kind of been

(01:34:28):
mixed up. Anyways, So during all of this after his
aunt passed away, her being the closest in him. Using
the Luigi board, he could have kind of brought to
his own light that I could maybe become something else.
He gets depressed. He starts thinking, Okay, maybe there's something

(01:34:50):
here messing with me, and he kind of runs with it,
and it just kind of builds as these preachers and
these pastors are coming into his life and he's it's
fueling his mental state. I think the clawing from the
inside out could be exaggerated a lot. You know, he
could he have caught himself and they just didn't see it.

Speaker 2 (01:35:12):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:35:13):
I think that there's too many factors that could be disproven.
But I do think that there could be in a
sense and energy involved. But I don't think that it
has to do with the fact that it was like
any religious backing. I think that that was just kind
of the way it went because of the fact that
the family brought in.

Speaker 2 (01:35:33):
Okay, so I got an idea. As everybody was talking,
I've been taking my notes and whatnot. You remember that
game that we played as kids. One person will whisper
something in another person's ear. Think, And by the time
I got around to the other end of the circle,
it was something totally different than what it was in
again I mean, I mean, just total miscommunication. So what

(01:35:59):
I'm thinking as they found these notes, read them, and
maybe even in those exorcisms what's being talked about is
maybe what the boy was saying he was feeling on
the inside, and as everything got lost in translation over

(01:36:23):
the years, you know, people started creating different type of
views or thought processes or explanations. Then it was perceived
another way than what it was actually given. So what
I'm what I'm thinking at this moment is in the
it was probably something that occurred, but not to the

(01:36:45):
degree it was expressed later on. You know, I just
think that the actual event that took place just got
reconfigured and reconfigured and re configured to the point to
where it came out in the movie in Hollywood like
it did, right.

Speaker 3 (01:37:07):
Un percent good point.

Speaker 1 (01:37:09):
Yeah, So what do we all think that this was
not a possession?

Speaker 4 (01:37:15):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:37:18):
EXPERI answer.

Speaker 2 (01:37:21):
I think.

Speaker 1 (01:37:23):
The claw, the clawing and the scratching and then turning
into like the footprints like you were discussed, like you've
witnessed that. I think there could have been something around.

Speaker 2 (01:37:33):
I have.

Speaker 6 (01:37:36):
I was.

Speaker 4 (01:37:36):
I was going to save it for another time to
tell you, but I thought it would be I thought
there is a succinct point that I do need to say.
So my bed is French. My bed dates from about
eighteen ninety. It came from a Parisian hotel. And I
am not kidding. Several times I will go to sleep

(01:37:58):
and my bed will do this, and I at first
it bothered me, and I was like, what is happening here?
And then I realized something. The bed is from an
eighteen nineties Parisian hotel. What do people do on beds
in hotels?

Speaker 3 (01:38:23):
So you're saying this entire possession was just residual.

Speaker 1 (01:38:33):
Sex happening on sex that you know what I think
the I think the kid was into some BDS and
that's what it was.

Speaker 4 (01:38:49):
You know, there's there is another point that too. Even
we brought up Aleister Crowley a little bit earlier on
Alistair had a similar life Alistair was. He loved his father,
they were Protestants, He loved his father's father was a minister.
His mother had PTSD a postpartum depression even and she

(01:39:12):
was crazy and she called him, oh, you're a little devil.
Oh you're the beast. Oh you're satan. Oh you're evil.
And then his father died. He was the only person
that he loved, and so then mother kept calling him
evil and crazy, and he was struggling with his own sexuality.
Even at nine and ten years old, there were things

(01:39:34):
that he didn't quite understand. He bragged that he had
bedded his nanny, who was eighteen he was nine. And
then of course she gets turned out. The mother finds out,
turns out of the house, she gets killed by Jack
the Ripper. Jack the Ripper beg your pardon. I mean,
it's one thing after another. And then his wife in

(01:39:56):
the twenties goes into a trance. She thinks she sees set,
the god set, and he himself tries to recreate that.
That's where he comes up with his his Thealima, his
his his religion of Thelema. So like like this Roland Doe,

(01:40:16):
when you put a lot of these traumatic experiences on
a child, it grows and it turns into something that
is it has a mind of its own.

Speaker 1 (01:40:31):
Right, Yep, that's a good that's a good way to
kind of express that. And it's true because like I said,
when when my wife when my mom decided to leave.
I really thought every kid went home and got beat
by their stepdad. I thought that was everybody's life. So

(01:40:53):
when we got out of that, I mean, it was
eye opening how different it was. So it is, it's
very traumatic, and it's an experience that you're like, I can't, like,
why did you allow that to happen to me? Like
there's resentments that come into play. There's all sorts of stuff,
and and then you see other kids that are like that,
and and it's like there's these two paths like when

(01:41:13):
it when it stops, do you absorb it and go
with it or do you become you know, better because
of it? And you know, and I mean you see
it all the time, serial killers with with very corrupt childhoods,
and it's just and they developed these old their own
ideas of how the world's supposed to be and and

(01:41:33):
even sometimes create that there are their own gods or
their own whatever. And then cults come into play. I mean,
it's it's it's nuts, and I think a lot of
it is mental. A lot of it is mental.

Speaker 4 (01:41:47):
But again, could not a spirit communicate to you in
a song that was written a hundred years ago or
could they not? Could a deity not communicate with you
through the words of a friend or through your own thoughts?

Speaker 1 (01:42:06):
It's were And as we start to wrap up, I mean,
you do, you conduct seances and you use the wage aboard,
but what is sort of is there a specific process
that you have to follow in order for it to work?

Speaker 4 (01:42:23):
Well? I think that we do need ritual. I think
we need theater. I think we need art. I think
we need a little bit of the dark lights, the candle,
the incense, the ringing of the bells. I think we
need ritual. Humans need ritual because it's what binds us

(01:42:45):
together as a group, as a whole. It doesn't have
to be religious necessarily. Humans need ritual. Things have to
be done and done with a purpose, and that ritual
helps them to get in the mind space to open
and accept.

Speaker 1 (01:43:05):
That's that's a fantastic answer. Well, Sean an evolution, Do
you have any questions for our guest today before we
wrap this up?

Speaker 2 (01:43:17):
More thoughts Richard Lale is definitely interesting hearing your thoughts
from your perspective, which made a lot of sense actually,

(01:43:37):
especially on certain things, and kind of tied into something
that I was able to expound on. So I'm I'm
glad you joined us today and once again nice to
meet you, and just look forward to what the response
is on this episode. Man, I'm interested to me what

(01:44:00):
the result number wise would turned out to be.

Speaker 1 (01:44:03):
Yeah, how about you, Sean.

Speaker 3 (01:44:07):
Now, it's been an absolute pleasure, definitely. I would love
to have you on one of my big jukebox have
made mention of this, Uh, having you possibly come on
Blurred Lines, O, thank you. That'd be great because we

(01:44:27):
talk about this kind of stuff on blurred lines, but
we we get a bit deeper into I don't know,
we were pretty deep today with all your pages of
notes boxes.

Speaker 1 (01:44:41):
Sorry you nailed it, but too many names I had to.

Speaker 3 (01:44:46):
Yeah, but I think it's I think it's been great.
I think having all manner perspectives on issues, you know,
sheds light on things. And it's just funny to me
that of all of the singed eye sockets that we
that we've been able to do, and I've enjoyed every

(01:45:09):
one of them, this is like the first one where
we're kind of stepping away going I think we all
blame the victim.

Speaker 8 (01:45:23):
Right, Richard Litl.

Speaker 1 (01:45:28):
I really appreciate you coming on and of course we're
gonna stay in touch. I'd love to have you back
on again, and I do this, but thank you so much.

Speaker 4 (01:45:38):
You're welcome.

Speaker 1 (01:45:40):
I will put your website in the description as well
if anybody wants to reach out.

Speaker 4 (01:45:46):
I'm really easy to find.

Speaker 1 (01:45:53):
All right, Hey, to everybody listening that it's gonna listen
or watch the show later on. We appreciate you guys
for tuning in and until next time, I will see
you around.

Speaker 2 (01:46:01):
Take care, m