What's in YOUR Toolbox? | Skeptic Generation | Episode 7 Season 3 - Skeptic Generation

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Hello, and welcome to the show. It is March twenty fourth,
twenty twenty four. This is Skeptic Generation. I'm Eric Murphy.
This is Skeptic Generation, and we need to talk. I
almost got that right. Oh my goodness, Hey everybody, welcome back.
You guys missed it. Oh my goodness. I needed to

(00:43):
run and grab some water, and right before the show started,
like literally a minute ago, tried running in socks and
just boom.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
I'm amazed that I made it in time. But I
am so.

Speaker 1 (00:56):
Glad y'all are here already, have a call in the
screening room ready to go. I'm excited about that. Let
me think. I can't think of any really big announcements,
so I'm probably going to be diving into calls pretty soon.
But before I do, I would love to take more
callers because with only one person on the line, this
might be a pretty short show. So let me get

(01:18):
this phone number out. It is four one two skep Gen.
That's four one two seven five three seven four three six.
Or if you love that nice, clear, crisp volume, you
can go to tiny dot cc slash s k E
P g E N. That's tiny dot cc slash skeep
gen and we would be happy to take your call.

(01:41):
It is toll free. As always, we take on that
cost and we're happy to do so. So if you
want to talk about what you believe in why, I
would love to.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
I would love to.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
And then I also wanted to kind of set up
a question just in case, and that question is what's
in your tool What is in your epistemic toolbox? You know,
what you believe in, why? And what tools are you
pulling out to understand the world around you? Because even
when you stop believing, it doesn't mean that you've applied

(02:15):
that rationality everywhere else in your life. I mean, for me,
it feels like, after you know, using utilizing skepticism in
my life, I've wound up needing to reapply that over
and over and over again. You know, so many things
kind of came packed in with my own religious indoctrination

(02:36):
that I had so many opinions that were just kind
of fed to me about what is moral or acceptable
when it comes to sex, what is moral or acceptable
when it comes to being being a dude, right or
roles in society, or the way government should work or
the way leadership should be. What kind of neighbor, what

(02:59):
kind of of father or friend? All of those things
needed to be dissected because while it was all kind
of baked in, and so reapplying those tools and understanding
and keeping that journey going I think is really really important.
One thing that frustrates me so much, and for a
lot of people who've been in this space for a

(03:21):
long time, we probably know exactly where I'm going with this,
and that is people taking that kind of fundamentalist thinking
that they've developed elsewhere in their lives and applying it
in atheist spaces because they only really applied critical thinking
to the God question. I thought the work was done
and it's not. You know, this false sense of superiority,

(03:43):
you know of people going, oh, well I got the
God question right, So I must have really good tools
for thinking about No, we're really bad at it.

Speaker 2 (03:52):
Got my Alton Brown mug. It's a good morning. It
is a good morning. Okay.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
Oh, people are talking about playing Colt of the lamb Oh.
I restarted playing that the other day. Good game anyway. Sorry,
looks like my ADHD meds have not fully kicked in,
But I'm going to do my best. Uh so one
more time before I take Jim four one two skep
gen that's tiny dot cc slash sk ep g e

(04:22):
N or if you want to call the phone number
four one two seven five three seven four three six.
We have the lines available and I would love to.

Speaker 2 (04:29):
Talk to you.

Speaker 1 (04:30):
But first, Jim in Ohio, you are live on Skepten.
How's it going, Jim?

Speaker 3 (04:38):
Very good and by the way, welcome back you.

Speaker 2 (04:41):
Admit ah, thank you.

Speaker 1 (04:44):
I am just getting your name here in the lower
third and you, I believe are looking good.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
What did you want to talk about today?

Speaker 3 (04:54):
Well, I know the cost Skreeny told you, but just
I called you about maybe a couple of weeks before
you on hiaus Uh. You were solo that time. I
remember that, and I was wont to ask if I
was being a hypocrite, okay, because I tend to believe
that there's wife also universe, even though there's no evidence
to prove the support. And I wonder if I was

(05:17):
being Hypocricalle's expect the same from see it. You know
what's there?

Speaker 2 (05:21):
Ever? What there else?

Speaker 3 (05:23):
And you and you were able to answer that. I
want to thank you. Hi suent me to a book
uh by Richard Darkis I forget the child, but I'll
look up. I haven't had time to read it. So
many books, so little time, and there's people in the
comment also add a success which I didn't take that time.

(05:45):
I don't know if I was on to something else
that maybe.

Speaker 4 (05:47):
Just go back.

Speaker 3 (05:48):
So when I came back, those successes have been dropped,
and I just wondered if there's some way I could
give them back, and this time I would make it
know of or if the people who sent the comments
are this thing to maybe the week.

Speaker 2 (06:03):
Got it?

Speaker 1 (06:03):
So can I repeat that? Because I kind of lost
you a little bit. Are you saying that you had
a couple of suggestions that were given to you for
you know, uh kind of places to go with that,
and you lost the list?

Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (06:19):
All right, Atheists assemble. If you were in the comments,
if you were watching, either either live or after the show,
if you have relevant material, definitely pop that in the
in the comments so that we can share that with
each other. You're looking for, uh atheists skeptic books.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
That revolve around.

Speaker 1 (06:43):
What exactly life existing outside of Earth.

Speaker 3 (06:46):
Well, one of the things you mentioned was some experiment
scientists are doing, and I don't know if they went
far to actual career. Right, probably not, but you know
that why or natural could be recreate to some extent. Oh,
but like I guess maybe they found the basics or
something like that.

Speaker 2 (07:06):
Got it, got it, got it.

Speaker 1 (07:07):
So you're looking more for studies about how a biogenesis occurs, right,
how life from non life kind of gets rolling.

Speaker 3 (07:16):
I'm not very technical, so you know sometimes for people
laid people.

Speaker 1 (07:21):
Oh, that might be a little tougher because I've definitely
seen studies. I could not tell you off the top
of my head which ones, but we have definitely been
able to see that really really basic I believe like
amino acids, you know, occurring naturally through you know, different
processes have have been have been studied. But yeah, no,

(07:47):
this is definitely a good place for a call out
to the community to get together because that would be
a really interesting topic to talk about anyway. But as
far as like whether or not you're a hypocrite, do
you want to talk about that or do you feel
comfortable in the way that we had rust that before?

Speaker 3 (08:02):
I feel comfortable about that. But there is a second
part to the question. After I hung up, and sometimes
when I think about sure, I could see, like I said,
I'm an atheist because I know some people sometimes try
and regularly come in and say the race you why
and then aha, I'm an atheist. I mean a theist, Okay,
but I tell you to see theatist side of things,

(08:24):
so I know how to come back. And occurred to
me that a theist could place God in the law
of scientists. You know, the scientist is in the lab ory,
he's got this experiment and he can treak a little,
you can add something, he can take away of it.
What happens when we do that? And I could see
a theist puting God in that position, that God is

(08:44):
a scientist.

Speaker 5 (08:46):
Yeah, and.

Speaker 3 (08:48):
In casually he can preak the experiment with its miracles.

Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yeah, absolutely, Well you have a response to that, Well,
it's definitely an accusation that has been created already, even
though we haven't always had the technological capability, you know,
the accusation of playing God, you know, and if somebody
were to create a synthetic life from non life and

(09:14):
then you know, start the chain of evolution that they
could that they're that their creatures could call that creator God,
and and the idea that you know, a God could
just be the scientist who got the work going in
the Petri dish that is our universe is definitely like

(09:35):
a concept that I've that I've interacted.

Speaker 3 (09:37):
With, like people who think that maybe it was aliens
to the life on Earth. Yeah, and that's why you
foth because are checking in on the experiment.

Speaker 1 (09:47):
Well, at that point you start getting into conspiracy theories
that I am not equipped to respond to. I definitely
know the limitations of my knowledge and understanding. I I
know that, Yeah, And and when it comes to conspiracies,
there have been conspiracies that we know have happened. But

(10:10):
making the assumption of conspiracies often relies on a lot
of underlying, you know, thought processes people have of you know,
distrust of large organizations, of governments, of of of this
and that, whether rightfully or not rightfully. But with that aside,
I can respond to the the you know, idea of

(10:32):
some creator God just being you know that scientist in
the lab. And ultimately, we want to apportion our behavior
to you know, our our our confidence in certain things.
You know, if I'm not one hundred percent confident in something,

(10:54):
I'm not going to go all in on it. And
there are plenty of people who've kind of come up
with this unprovable idea of God. You know, whether it
be some scientist and a lab that got things kicked off,
or panspermia, you know, some outside extraterrestrial beginning to life

(11:17):
on Earth.

Speaker 2 (11:19):
I don't know. I really don't know.

Speaker 1 (11:20):
But what I do know is I'm not going to
burn precious time in my life on it until I've
got good reason to, you know. And and I'll keep
and I'll keep, I'll keep an open mind. But like
the tim mentioned song, not so not so open that
my brain.

Speaker 2 (11:40):
Falls out.

Speaker 3 (11:42):
Exactly Irish like that quote.

Speaker 2 (11:45):
Yeah, definitely me too if I was something up.

Speaker 3 (11:49):
So I have I know you have the calls? Do
I have for a couple of quickie to a least
are quickie?

Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yeah, let's let's.

Speaker 1 (11:57):
Do one more and then we'll we'll move on to
Trent after that.

Speaker 3 (12:01):
Okay, Well both of them have to do with previous college.
I think that was last week. Like I forgive his name, uh,
but the one whose life was destroyed by people spreading
lives about me, You lost his job, bought a lot
of friends. I just wonder if he concerned the lawyers
about that, even not for himself. You mentioned how people

(12:24):
who are crappy will be crappy other people if they're
crappy to you and you leave, so just sitten to
somebody else, and at least I'll take him a quick
would put him on know it?

Speaker 1 (12:38):
Yes, And I'm not a lawyer, and I don't know
to what extent getting legal help there, But I would
say that conversations like that are kind of best in
the comments because often the people who call in will
read the comments, just like you read the comments and
got those resources for yourself. I think that having them
on air would actually be as beneficial as letting the

(13:02):
community weigh in and letting them be a part of
that too.

Speaker 2 (13:05):
So let's let's hold on.

Speaker 3 (13:08):
Not very tak to coach, So I don't know how
to gender received comments, so outside to have somebody tell
me how.

Speaker 1 (13:15):
Got it, that would definitely be worth looking into. Yeah,
one more thing and then in the.

Speaker 3 (13:23):
Yeah, I just wanted to health high and glad.

Speaker 2 (13:26):
As they're bad, I will past them.

Speaker 1 (13:30):
They are, they are, they are still asleep, they're sleeping
in and they deserved it. They absolutely deserve it. They
have had a tough week this week, but Jim, thank
you for sticking around. And thank you for coming back,
and it's good.

Speaker 2 (13:42):
Talking to you.

Speaker 3 (13:44):
Thank you, and welcome back.

Speaker 2 (13:46):
Thank you, Bye bye bye. That was nice. That was nice.

Speaker 1 (13:54):
Yeah, he's doing well. We actually went on a double
date last night and it is awesome. It was really awesome.
Things are doing okay, and I'm really.

Speaker 2 (14:09):
Happy about it.

Speaker 1 (14:10):
So yeah, okay, with that said, let's move on to
our next caller. Excuse me, I do want to put
the word out because I do want to have more
callers in the queue. If you want to call in,
it is four one two seven five three seven four

(14:30):
three six. Or if you want to call online tiny
dot cc slash skepchen that's t I n Y dot
c C backslash s k e p g e N.
It is free and it works around the world, So.

Speaker 2 (14:45):
Give a call. I'd love to talk to you.

Speaker 1 (14:47):
In the meantime, though, let's talk to Trent in Missouri. Trent,
you are live on Skeptic Generation. Let me get you
dialed in here. He hey, let me get your name
fixed here. Sorry, producing live has its own little issues,
all right, looks like we're good, Trent, what did you

(15:09):
want to talk about today?

Speaker 5 (15:11):
Okay? So I knowed this, Uh, First of all, I'm
really glad to get a chance to talk to you today.
I would have love called in a couple of weeks,
about three or four weeks ago, when you had genetically
modified skeptic on. I think this topic would have been
that you guys were talking about on that day. I
wanted to talk about this with with other people. Normally

(15:33):
I can't call because I go to church on on
on Sundays. At this time this week, we don't happen
to have it. I am an atheist, okay, but my
my question has to do with that's that's really more
of a topic. I'm trying to to figure this out. Yeah,

(15:57):
there's a it's the idea of holding on to belief
as a as a mechanism for for dealing with with
struggles in life versus you know, even if even if
intellectually you know that it's that it's not reality. And

(16:21):
I I maybe maybe the word belief isn't the right
thing to use there, And that's that's part of why
I wanted to talk to somebody about it. So there
there's two things that kind of brought me to this,
to this idea. One is I have I have multiple
children and who have various degrees of anxiety, and I've

(16:43):
got one that's that's autistic. And so I've I've experienced
a lot of interesting different patterns of brain activity.

Speaker 1 (16:54):
I so I just to just to have that on
the same page with you. I have years ofking and
special head. In fact, my mom was a special ed
teacher and I grew up in that classroom, and so
working you know, very very closely with with.

Speaker 2 (17:08):
Kids and young adults with special needs.

Speaker 1 (17:10):
I'm happy to talk about it.

Speaker 5 (17:14):
Yeah, and so, and you know, and I know that
I know that that I myself and the very you
know very much into things have to absolutely make sense,
you know, I need to understand why. I mean, even
when I was I'm a I'm a Mormon by by
upbringing and by current practice. U I tell myself a

(17:36):
Mormon atheist because I actually do actively attend and and
speak with people as if as if I believe. And
it's not necessarily just to mask it's because I find
that there's value for lots of people in belief. And
but I have I have a couple of my kids that,

(17:57):
when dealing with anxiety, one of the mechanisms used to
help them deal with a anxiety was to treat their
brain like a separate person.

Speaker 2 (18:09):
Okay, I can dig that, okay.

Speaker 5 (18:12):
And actually have conversations with themselves, you know, like like
talk to their brain as a you know, thank you
for looking out for me. But I've got this, you know,
as a as a mechanism. So that that's one thing
that kind of triggered my thinking along these lines. And
then the second thing is that a few years ago
there was a You're familiar with the with Elizabeth Gilbert,

(18:34):
the author of Eat, Pray, Love Familiar with that.

Speaker 2 (18:38):
I didn't remember the name of the author, but I
know that book.

Speaker 5 (18:41):
Yeah, okay, I actually haven't read the book, but I
watched a TED talk that she gave where she talked
about genius and suggested that we that we that it
might be beneficial if we were to consider genius as
not something that we that somebody is that something that's

(19:03):
that people have access to, something outside of ourselves. And
you know, as if as if personifying this genius h two, Well,
one of the way that to not feel like you
like you have to live up to, you know, some

(19:24):
some pressures that are put on us to succeed. And
and I wonder if if some of the religious thoughts
and some of the beliefs that people have are really
that that you know, the idea of because I know
that for myself, having the idea of a redeemer, you know,

(19:47):
a christ figure can be powerful when I'm when I'm
feeling uh, you know, and not not not of the
way to to to not take to not take responsibility
for my actions, but two but to basically move on
from uh, you know, from from beating myself up from

(20:10):
you know, uh that that I'm that I'm not somehow
lost because I know, I see, I see that happen
all the time when people make mistakes and and and
they want or or or or if we're for how
we deal with justice, you know, this idea we want
we want some justice. Is it possible that that there

(20:32):
are certain brain chemistries that that need that, you know,
we're not all as uh as rationally minded as I've got.
I have my one daughter who's who's autistic, you know,
very high functioning that some people say, but you know,
in her mind, it's just it's just has to make sense.

(20:55):
And I'm I'm I'm closer to that. Whereas my wife
it's like, you know, she just doesn't. It doesn't. It's
not the she. She doesn't need to know all of
the details, and so for her, the stories are just
a short cut, easy way to deal with it, to
not have to work through those those those issues. So
I know I've I've kind of rambled and tested on

(21:18):
a lot of things.

Speaker 2 (21:18):
Here you have it.

Speaker 5 (21:21):
It's a broad subject and it's one that I'm I'm
starting to explore to try to understand a little bitter.
And I just heard yesterday about a book called that
I want to want to study. Oh what is it called?
Something about the cognitive something of religion?

Speaker 2 (21:42):
No worries.

Speaker 1 (21:42):
So we have a couple of things that we probably
should address in sections. That way, we can, you know,
take take something that's so big and and break it
down a little bit. And so I'm going to make
a couple of notes so that I can make sure
that I don't forget, because my my adhd butt is
going to forget.

Speaker 6 (22:02):
That.

Speaker 5 (22:02):
Part of my issue too, is that I was all
over the place. Oh wait, there's.

Speaker 2 (22:08):
No worries.

Speaker 1 (22:09):
So let me see if I can repeat back a
couple of these things and we'll see where we can
go from there. Okay, Okay, So one of the first
things that I'm remembering here in what you said is
benefit of believing something even if it's not.

Speaker 5 (22:22):
True, well or at least acting as if you believe.

Speaker 2 (22:30):
Got it.

Speaker 1 (22:31):
Okay, I'm literally making these notes while we're talking because
I know that I'm going to wind up forgetting after
I get down one of these trains of thought. And
so the next is what the actual benefits are for
things like prayer or for a you know, believing in

(22:52):
a in a redeeming figure because it feels better when
you're feeling lost. Right, Yeah, I have a computer, I
have a keyboard that's less clique that I used just
for the show, and I didn't put it in front

(23:14):
of me before the show started, so I might grab it.

Speaker 2 (23:18):
Yeah, oh good.

Speaker 1 (23:19):
I would just worry that, you know, people who are
listening as a podcast or you know whatever.

Speaker 5 (23:24):
Oh, I know, you have to do it best for
the show. But it doesn't bother me.

Speaker 1 (23:27):
But I appreciate that. I appreciate that. So we have that.
And then what was the next piece from there?

Speaker 5 (23:42):
Just the you know, how did how did the how
do have those pieces? I mean, I didn't really say this,
but I think that I can't.

Speaker 2 (23:55):
Remember exactly what I said either, No worries.

Speaker 5 (24:00):
I'll have to go back and listen to the call.
But I'm wondering if there's if there's strategies that that
we could that we can help people basically beyond the
problems of belief without knowledge, belief without understanding.

Speaker 1 (24:28):
And I guess yeah, Oh, those are such good questions.

Speaker 2 (24:33):
Okay, cool.

Speaker 1 (24:34):
So, first off, when you lose the train of thought
like that, to me, what that tells me is you
are more interested in actively listening to me than you
are in waiting for your turn to talk. And so
when we both lose the train of thought because we're
so interested in talking to each other, I love that
there's never anything to apologize for on that.

Speaker 2 (24:51):
So you're super good.

Speaker 5 (24:52):
Oh right, that's an interesting Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:00):
So believing in something even and acting as if it's
true even if it's not. Personally, I'm just some asshole
on the internet. I can only speak for myself, but
I've found this to be true for a lot of
people when I speak to them about it, and that
is there's a difference between knowing something in your head and.

Speaker 2 (25:17):
Knowing it in your heart.

Speaker 5 (25:20):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (25:21):
Yeah, And when I came to a cognitive place of
understanding that there's no way that the god I believed
in existed. That doesn't mean that my heart was immediately
able to understand that, And so the idea of praying.

Speaker 2 (25:42):
I had spent my entire life.

Speaker 1 (25:44):
Feeling like I was communing with this deity every time
I prayed, and my brain had built these neural pathways
that just emphasized it. They'd become highways that were easy
to traverse, and so building new path pathways was very difficult.
And actually understanding that what took a really long time,

(26:07):
and during that time I felt very very wrong.

Speaker 2 (26:10):
There was something wrong.

Speaker 6 (26:12):
You know.

Speaker 1 (26:13):
At the time, I thought that my my god antenna
was broken and I just could not communicate with them,
you know, something was off. But what I found eventually
was there came a point in time that prayer started
losing its feeling of usefulness, not because I was, you know,
cognitively going oh, well, I know this isn't true, but

(26:33):
just because it stopped helping, you know. And at that
point I felt like that reality had gone from my
head to my heart that I actually fully understood in
my heart that that wasn't you.

Speaker 5 (26:48):
Know, yeah, no, I totally. I totally understand that because
I I've I've only I've only been able to articulate
that I'm I've only been able to basically claimed that
I'm at it's probably about a year.

Speaker 1 (27:05):
Oh man, Yeah, you've got so much ahead of you.

Speaker 2 (27:08):
Yeah, No, that is an early place to be. God,
I didn't.

Speaker 5 (27:13):
Except the thing about it is this is what I've
This is what I've come to realize, is that is
that my my journey is much much longer than that
out of literal belief to uh, you know, to more
nuance and and what I'm wondering if if if it

(27:36):
was just that that switch in my good so I'm
actually I'm actually gonna be I've started thinking about about
something called you know, it's changing the narrative. Okay, you
know that, uh you know you were talking about these
neural pathways. Well, I wonder if the neural an ways

(28:00):
that you that you talked about that that had God,
that you're still using those that you've just re labeled
them absolutely so that it's so's and because that's kind
of what I think I've done. And why why to me?
Because me tweet this has not been a painful process
at all. I mean, I I don't have I I mean,
I know that it is for many, and I'm not

(28:21):
I don't want to dismiss that, and but to me
it's been it's just been a very natural process. But
it's been more about just recognizing that those conversations that
I used to think I was having God because I
never I ever actually I always I never I never
really like you know, did formal prayer, knelt down and pray.
I used always felt like I had a prayer in
my heart. I was just always having conversations with God.

(28:44):
And so what I've been able to do in the
meantime is realize that, oh, I was just having conversations
with myself.

Speaker 1 (28:52):
That was the other thing we were talking about externalizing, right.

Speaker 5 (28:56):
Working, working through things, and and so maybe maybe maybe
we'll kind of what I'm wondering is is that is
you know, as you as you were speaking about your
experience of the heads of the heart, because I totally
get that, uh and uh, you know, there's still plenty
of things that I know that I that I need

(29:18):
to behave differently and need to do differently, because it's uh,
you know, intellectually I know that, but I just can't.

Speaker 2 (29:23):
Quite yeah over that hump.

Speaker 5 (29:27):
You know, I expect that's probably gonna be a challenge
for most of us, all of our lives. That's that's
the challenge of.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
Becoming our ideal absolutely absolutely so.

Speaker 5 (29:39):
Oh, I mean I love the I love the discussion
a couple of weeks ago with all of the the
the Pagan at the eighth.

Speaker 2 (29:50):
Ath Opagan episode. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (29:53):
I actually really love that because it was really like,
oh yeah, because that's you know, because I I steel.
I mean, I know that a lot of people make
fun Mormonism, and you know, I I would never One
of the reason I want to talk to you is
I knew I could have a conversation with you about
this feeling like it has to defend anything. Yeah, but
you know, I've always liked the I really and I

(30:16):
still do. I like the idea of the Mormon gods
one who's the one who's a progressive.

Speaker 1 (30:21):
Human I I so, I I have had a lot
of Mormon friends in my life. What what blows my
mind is that you're still active in the church and
they still let you be. Because in my experience of
talking to Mormons ex Mormons and and all of that
voicing doubt and having those kinds of you know, questions

(30:47):
have led people to be kicked out of their communities.
So the fact that you haven't been kicked out of
your community, I'm I'm glad to hear.

Speaker 5 (30:56):
Oh I just I don't let them.

Speaker 6 (31:00):
That.

Speaker 1 (31:00):
Okay, okay, you know what, So there is not a
wrong way or right way to be an atheist, you
know you do?

Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yeah, I know, I know, I.

Speaker 5 (31:09):
Know, I'm not. I don't. I don't. I don't see
that That's what helped me realize that I could actually,
you know, I've been doing this for you know, for
years after as an active Mormon, and realized, oh, I
actually an atheist. I don't I don't actually believe this,
but but I'm you know, but there are to me,
there are I mean, I actually love descriptions. I think

(31:33):
there's so many things that we can learn from them.
You know that they're literal and no, but but that
that that's what kind of brings me to these ideas
of the power of mythology.

Speaker 1 (31:46):
And oh absolutely, I've known plenty of people who've taken
books of poetry and just read into them, found themselves
reading into them things that were beneficial for their own lives.
In fact, there are you know, quite a few atheist
witches who have really described Taro as doing exactly that right,

(32:09):
laying out the cards, finding what they mean for you,
and then using that as a way to kind of
hack into your own brain to figure out, you know,
where you're thinking about things and where you want to
go with things. Doing that, I think is really really useful.
In fact, externalizing things so that you can address them
is a really really great tool to be able to
prevent it from getting power in your life. I know

(32:31):
I've talked about it before, but I have clinical depression.
My depression is a hitchhiker that I'm not able to
kick off the train. Whether it's a good day or
a bad day, best day of my life, it doesn't matter,
it's just there. And being able to treat it as
an external thing and go, hey, I know you're here,
but you don't get to be the loudest person in
the room. I'm going to put you here to the

(32:52):
best of my ability, and then recognizing that on days
when that fight is too hard, you know, when that
oppression is hitting really hard for me to go this
is my depression. I'm I'm I'm recognizing. Okay, you know,
it's throwing a tantrum today, but that doesn't make me
worse of a person, and it doesn't mean that I
need all of my tomorrows.

Speaker 2 (33:13):
To be owned by it. And that is fantastic.

Speaker 5 (33:16):
Absolutely, Yeah, that's exactly the kind of strategy that I
helped my.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
What a good dad. I like you trench when.

Speaker 5 (33:26):
I finally accepted that, when I finally understood that they
were behaving the way they were because they were having
anxiety attacks, not because they were just throwing tantrums. I
feel bad that it took me a while to understand that,
but once idea, I was able to help them cope
with it by using that kind of a strategy. And

(33:46):
that that's basically what what Elizabeth Gilbert to me. That's
what she's suggesting when she talks about personifying genius is
something outside of ourselves and she gives them It's a
great ted talk. If you haven't listen to.

Speaker 1 (33:59):
It, it sounds really familiar. I it it's interesting. I like, I'm, I'm,
I'm I'm definitely all for that. I think that when
when it comes to the belief and and acting in
the community itself, have you ever had a friend that

(34:20):
was a real dick to other people but was great
to you.

Speaker 5 (34:29):
Yeah, I've, I've I've heard I definitely have something that
that that are that are I don't know if I
call him a real dick, but I think I know
what you're what you're saying.

Speaker 1 (34:41):
Yeah, I've so, I've I've definitely had friends who you know,
when I was before I left the Christian space, there
were lots of guys who were just misogynists. You know,
we're just really fun to hang out with, but treated
women like crap.

Speaker 2 (35:02):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:05):
And at a certain point I realized that I could
not separate that, and I didn't think I should because.

Speaker 2 (35:15):
It just felt awful.

Speaker 1 (35:18):
And after a certain point, I realized I didn't want
to be their friend, and I took a stand and
ended those friendships. And it felt selfishly sucky, because why
wouldn't you want to keep those friendships, But at the
same time, holding those separate things at the same time

(35:38):
was not helpful and it was not benefiting anyone. In fact,
it created a system where that person could continue to
be an asshole because they weren't getting repercussions for it
in their real life, and that's kind of the end
place where I came when it came to Mormonism that

(35:59):
I had volunteered with and even like gone to like
does does your Mormon church do trunk or treat.

Speaker 4 (36:07):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (36:07):
Yeah, yeah, you know, and they are like so many
community community activities, you know, the different like uh, where
there are like ward parties that you would go to.

Speaker 2 (36:21):
Do you know what I'm talking about?

Speaker 6 (36:23):
Oh?

Speaker 5 (36:23):
Yeah, no, exactly. Well and and and I guess the
thing is because I I mean, I like, I don't
I don't think tithing, so therefore, you know, I'm not
teligible to go to the temple. And I mean, while
I I love the temples. I know that sounds odd
for people, but I happen to love the ritual because
I don't look at it it's I look at it

(36:43):
as ritual.

Speaker 2 (36:44):
And yeah, I.

Speaker 5 (36:47):
Was one of the few people I know that actually
was not freaked out the first time I went to
the temple.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
Well, I mean, it's so.

Speaker 1 (36:57):
It's so divorced from the rest of the world that
it absolutely is.

Speaker 5 (37:02):
But I but I grew up, I grew up reading
in fantasy and and high you know, high ritual literature,
and so to me that was all it was was
just a high ritual.

Speaker 2 (37:13):
I get that. I get that, yeah, you know, and
and and.

Speaker 5 (37:17):
I know that. I mean, like I just happened to
lant In through chat here, and and I mean the
reason I'm still active is not because I care anything
about the about the church as a whole. It's because
it's it's my it's my community, it's my people.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
Yeah, you know, I mean, uh.

Speaker 5 (37:34):
I'm you know, Mormonism is my heritage.

Speaker 4 (37:37):
And so.

Speaker 5 (37:39):
I am. I am fourth generation on all sides.

Speaker 4 (37:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (37:45):
So, I mean, my my grandfather was it was it
was good friends with one of the apostles of the
Church of the Church, and so you know, it's it's uh,
it's it's not just it's never.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
As ablity a cultural thing, yeah it is. And so
like I'm sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 5 (38:11):
Oh, it's just you know, it's just that I realized
that the culture that the church was becoming. I mean,
I didn't realize that I was raised so differently in
the church than so many of my friends until I
until about ten years ago when I started to really
talk to people about it. Yeah, because because I was
raised that it was okay to to have doubts, I
was raised that it was okay to really, yes, to

(38:34):
criticize the leaders. I mean we we'd. My parents were
always absolutely orthopracticed as far as you can go. I
mean we did, we we we we we could. We
didn't have playing cards in our house because we couldn't.
We never had any any Cola's in our house because
of the caffeine. I mean, we were very very strict orthopractice.
But we would when we would be watching General Conference

(38:55):
and listening to the leaders the church speak, my dad
would be over there and he'd say, well, I don't
know about that.

Speaker 1 (39:01):
When they say something, Oh, that is so interesting, I
wonder if it is. I wonder if it's because you
can trace your your roots so far back. Like when
you say trace those roots, do you mean like back
to Novo or back to Joseph Smith. I'm sorry, I know,
like ninety percent of the people watching are like, what
the fuck are they? But I need to know now.

Speaker 5 (39:21):
So my my my great grandfather, So it does. It's
not even that far back. My grandfather was born in
eighteen ninety three, and his and his father was born
in eighteen twenty five, and his and his father, so
that's my great grandfather was bringing me on his statute.

Speaker 2 (39:38):
Oh shit.

Speaker 5 (39:40):
Yeah, so we're not even talking that many generations as
far as that that line.

Speaker 2 (39:47):
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
Okay, So, so like, how did how how did your
family deal with the FLDS split, And like all of
the other splits, there are a lot of splits are
over are.

Speaker 5 (39:58):
And I've had I've had family members like one of
my one of my father's sisters and her husband. They
they felt that the church, you know, back in the nineties,
they thought the leadership of the church had gone astray
and they left the church to join a polygamous cult.

Speaker 1 (40:16):
I mean like at the time, I wouldn't necessarily consider
it as a cult, as just that that fundamentalist like
section of it. Okay, I have to another question. You're
in Missouri, are you Were you related to the Missouri
like Jackson County Group.

Speaker 5 (40:33):
Yes. One of my really, one of my one of
my ancestors is Amanda Barnes, who I don't know if
you've ever heard that name before, but she is very
prominent in the UH. Her her husband was and the
son was killed at hans Mill the hospital massacre.

Speaker 2 (40:50):
She was.

Speaker 5 (40:52):
Amanda Barnes. I'd forgotten the exactly, but no, she's very
prominent in her church. My my great my great great
grandfather on my mother's side was personally taught by by
Joseph Smith and and moved to Nauvoo. And yeah, so

(41:15):
so my my, my, my roots go way way back.

Speaker 1 (41:19):
I if as a non Mormon, can you tell I
I kind of have done like a.

Speaker 2 (41:24):
Little bit of yah, yeah, that is that is wild.
That is wild.

Speaker 1 (41:32):
I'm I'm so Trent, I'm glad you're here. And I
I have to wonder if if it's because of kind
of having that that familial history, that that has caused
you to have such a different experience from so many people,
because that, yeah, the the the Mormons that I went

(41:52):
to high school with and got to know, you know
after high school definitely grew up in an environment that
was not okay with that kind of thing.

Speaker 5 (42:06):
Oh and I and I and I totally get that now,
like you know it to me, to me yours as
an adult to look around at the at the other
members of the church around me and say it's not
any because I wasn't really learning what their stories were
and what their background was. And then about you know,
about ten years ago, I started to question a whole

(42:28):
bunch of things about well, I mean, you know about
my about my my beliefs, and boy, I will tell
you my I've I've changed in so many ways in
the last I mean, moving to Missouri was one of
the best things for me with regards to that, because
I really started to examine everything in my life. Why
do And that's when I started to understand what what
is a distant moment?

Speaker 2 (42:49):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (42:50):
How do I how do I know? How do I
know the things they do? Because I've always been so
confident in.

Speaker 1 (42:54):
My well I believe, I mean, in believing communities, it
is viewed as a really good thing to have, just
you know, absolute confidence in something. You know, you were
more believable and more trustworthy if you were never wrong
and you had absolute confidence, which you know as a

(43:17):
non believer. Now I'm just like, wow, that was crazy.
But yeah, okay, so I'm sorry for for digressing. That's
just really interesting, Trent. I'd love to just talk to
you at some point, but I know I kind of
want to get back to what you had called in
about trying to bring us back here. Some more people
can can follow before I do, though, I do want

(43:38):
to say, I don't have other.

Speaker 2 (43:40):
Callers on the lions.

Speaker 1 (43:41):
I'm just gonna give our phone number one more plug
so that we can try and get some more people
queued up after you. Okay, So let me just say
that if you want to call four one two seven
five three seven four three six, that's four one two
skep GEN or tiny dot c c slash skep gen.
That's tiny dot c c slash s k e p N.

(44:01):
Would love to talk to you in the meantime, Trent.

Speaker 2 (44:04):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (44:06):
So, the benefit of believing something even if it's not true,
and in acting as it is, I personally think that
you can't choose your beliefs.

Speaker 5 (44:14):
Your beliefs, well, that's what I'm not belief is really
the right word there, because I agree with that, but
I'm not sure what other words.

Speaker 1 (44:22):
I think that utilizing tools that are useful, yeah, I
mean utilize them.

Speaker 2 (44:30):
So long as they are useful.

Speaker 1 (44:32):
I have found that for most non believers, eventually that
stuff stops feeling as useful. And if that's the case,
then I advise that you find other ways to keep
doing that kind of thing. There are lots of atheists
I know who really benefit from meditation and different types

(44:52):
of meditation. You know, when it comes to atheist witches,
doing spell work is just a kind of meditation from
what I've seen, right, you know, you know when I
when I've talked to athe opagan's, you know, picking a
deity that kind of aligns with what you're feeling or

(45:13):
what you want, and using that kind of prayer as
a way to you know, focus yourself in on something
that you want or to help yourself, you know, resolve
you know, upsets or or fears or traumas, like all
of those things. Are us just figuring out how to
hack our brains. And I don't think that's necessarily about right, Yeah, right,

(45:36):
And I guess.

Speaker 5 (45:37):
I guess I guess that that's so. And you know,
I'm not thinking about it as so much for myself
as to how to. I mean, it's like if I
if I never went back to church again, It's like
I still interact with the people that I like. There's
I go, I go each week I wanted to.

Speaker 4 (45:54):
It's op change.

Speaker 5 (45:54):
I played the organs to for me, for me to
serve the people there, and I participate, participate to the
level that I that I want to justicipay to serve
it like I want.

Speaker 1 (46:07):
To, and you know, playing the organ I don't. So
so you could win the rubber belly pat your head competition.

Speaker 5 (46:18):
Well, I'm I'm becoming an organist, let's put it that way,
to turn into an organist. And I'm and I'm I'm
getting I'm not. I don't feel like I'm quite here
there yet where I can call myself an organist. But
I'm definitely further along than most people that play.

Speaker 1 (46:33):
The organist church for Okay, I got you, I got
you and and and that's you know.

Speaker 5 (46:39):
I've got friends of mine that are that are professional
organists to play for you know, for churches that actually
pay their and so I I also happen to have
it's just as a as a little little aside to
blow your mind a little more. I happen to. But
I sing with the Mormon Required for years.

Speaker 1 (46:57):
Oh they sound so pretty and uh and I.

Speaker 5 (47:03):
Love doing that. That was very very you know, there
was some really amazing experiences I had doing that. You know,
some that at the time I call the spiritual the
spirit and now I just recognize me it's still amazing
and and that that's kind of how I reinterpreted the spiritual.

Speaker 2 (47:20):
Okay, it's the to me.

Speaker 5 (47:24):
I do feel like there's there is some power in
connection and community. In fact, that's been the biggest change
in my life, is the switch from individualists to recognizing
that I'm part of the community. Is my individual well
you know, well the individual is important. The community, I
think is there needs to be a balance there.

Speaker 2 (47:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:46):
So so, Trent, I I love the way that you're
emoting you are you are coming in a little quiet.
I have the exact same problem. So just you know,
I I it was something that was taught to me
when I first started. It's your dynamic range. You know
that your loudest and your quietest. Just just just so

(48:09):
you know, people probably had to turn the volume up
on that one a little bit.

Speaker 3 (48:13):
Oh.

Speaker 5 (48:13):
I appreciate that that feedback.

Speaker 2 (48:15):
Absolutely.

Speaker 5 (48:17):
Not trying to promote myself, but I am trying to
start a YouTube channel to talk about some of these issues.

Speaker 1 (48:22):
Really, but I am Hey, Trent, when you get it started,
you give me a shout and if there's anything I
can do to help you know, if you want to
guess I.

Speaker 5 (48:32):
Was planning on I was planning on giving you a
giving you a call to find out, you know, what
kind of things I might need is because I do
think I have an interesting perspective on it. I mean,
it's it's it's not going to be focused strictly on atheism,
but that's.

Speaker 2 (48:44):
Definitely a yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:48):
Have you have you reached out to Bryce Blinkenhagel or
any of the other the Mormonum.

Speaker 5 (48:56):
The only other Mormon that I really, I mean, I
was not aware of. I honestly don't watch a lot
of a lot of ex Mormon streams because I don't
relate to their experiences.

Speaker 1 (49:08):
So I just for pure fun, thank God I'm atheist.
Is two ex Mormons living in Salt Lake City who
are just hilarious who I've listened to since before I
was I hope they're still around. I listened to since
before I ever did stuff.

Speaker 2 (49:28):
On my own.

Speaker 1 (49:29):
There's also naked Mormonism, and naked Mormonism actually goes into
like the history and how Mormonism actually happened by going
into real deep stuff.

Speaker 2 (49:42):
Okay, so yeah, you've you've checked that out?

Speaker 5 (49:44):
Oh yeah, see that that That's part of the thing
is that I've I've been I've been fully aware of
most of the problems of the church again because I
because I have this long history, none of that's surprise.
I mean for me, maybe you know all the details
that didn't surprise it most didn't surprise me.

Speaker 2 (50:01):
That that is amazing.

Speaker 1 (50:03):
So Trent hop on discord. I'm going to be doing
an after show and I would love to talk to
you in the discord. The link to the discord is
in the description for this UH for this video, and
also I know our amazing UH moderators UH will also
pop the link. So definitely hop into the discord and

(50:24):
I'll talk to you more about it afterward. I'd be
happy to help you in any way I can.

Speaker 5 (50:29):
Okay, Yeah, I didn't want to necessarily get into that,
but it sounds like I might want to even read
because there was, like I said, there were some things
that that that were in that plods you know, that's
a whole different that Athan that a pig in an
episode that that were really intriguing to me about the

(50:52):
you know.

Speaker 1 (50:55):
Yeah, well actually the things you you know, you idolize
and or not idealize.

Speaker 2 (51:01):
The idol I know what you're saying. Yeah, idealize is
the right word.

Speaker 1 (51:05):
Actually, I have an atheist witch in the screening room
who I'm going to be picking up and probably picking
up that conversation with. So yeah, I know there are
a lot of things we wanted to talk about, but
we've already gone for over a half hour.

Speaker 5 (51:18):
I'm glad you've got other callers now.

Speaker 2 (51:20):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (51:20):
You saved my butt. I really appreciate it. But Trent,
thank you so much. I really enjoyed this call, and
I look forward to talking to you later.

Speaker 2 (51:29):
All right, it's good to talk to her you too,
Thank you, thank you. I look forward to seeing in
the work that you do.

Speaker 5 (51:37):
Thanks.

Speaker 2 (51:37):
Take care of Trent.

Speaker 1 (51:39):
Okay, Oh what a sweetheart. And for everybody else, I
would love to see you in our discord as well.
I've been doing after shows after every episode, unless I'm
feeling really sick or something. I really enjoy kind of
doing a debrief and hang out with people. Link is
in the description. And yeah, i'd love to catch you
there in the meantime. Oh my goodness, I have so

(52:00):
many people. I love this, but I got to talk
to I.

Speaker 7 (52:06):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (52:07):
Ashley in Minnesota. Ashley, you are on Skeptic Generation.

Speaker 2 (52:15):
Hey, Eric, Hey, I'm doing really well.

Speaker 1 (52:19):
Let me just get you dialed in here in the
in the lower third, what in the meantime, what.

Speaker 2 (52:25):
Did you want to talk about?

Speaker 7 (52:29):
First off, I'd like to shout out your partner V
for successfully helping me along my transition day non binary characters,
uh and like exploring that option. Huge shout outs to them.
They are amazing.

Speaker 2 (52:47):
They are, aren't they? I love them very much?

Speaker 4 (52:55):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (52:55):
So I good. So it says you want to talk
about paganism. Is this another atheopaganism thing?

Speaker 7 (53:05):
Yes, well kind of okay, So I'm a member of
the Satanic Temple chairs and I practice ritual uh and
like candle carving and tarot cards and so forth.

Speaker 4 (53:25):
But what I worry about.

Speaker 7 (53:28):
Is AH perhaps overstepping AH boundaries into like Shawnmanistic.

Speaker 4 (53:40):
Practices practice people.

Speaker 7 (53:44):
Or uh like Celtic cultures yeah, or cultures from Hinduism
or things like that.

Speaker 2 (53:55):
Uh.

Speaker 7 (53:56):
And I'm I'm worried that it is ethically dubious for
a white passing person to take Indigenous practices and rituals.

Speaker 2 (54:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:11):
Oh yeah, I think the cringiest call, one of the
cringiest calls I ever had. Somebody called in and said
that their wife was an Indian princess in another.

Speaker 4 (54:23):
Life fucking Christ.

Speaker 1 (54:27):
And I was like, Okay, number one, you're talking about
First Nations people, They're not Indian. And number two, correct,
princesses are a like a thing that was brought over
from Europe, like that, that whole hierarchy, it.

Speaker 7 (54:42):
Was the pinnacle of whiteness.

Speaker 1 (54:45):
Yeah, but also need yeah, and then and then needing
to assert yourself as like genetically being superior is just
so cringe, right, I get it when it comes to
appropriate and honestly, I think that I would reach out
to the people who who you're wanting to like be

(55:09):
involved with those kinds of practices and talk to them,
find out, you know, what they're comfortable with and and
and how you can be involved and take your lead
from there, because I definitely would see my boundaries as
different from what theirs are, and so reaching out and

(55:31):
connecting with those people I think would be the right
thing to do. And then also, right, it sounds like
you're approaching it with a level of humility that I
would really like. That's what I would want most, you know.
So yeah, that that's kind of my first take on it.

Speaker 7 (55:54):
Yes, there there are many indigenous persons ah.

Speaker 5 (56:00):
In Minnesota.

Speaker 7 (56:04):
I can't for the life of me remember what the
name of it was. But there's a there's like a
map of all of the First Nations peoples who were colonized,

(56:24):
and I can't remember the name of the specific Indigenous
peoples that were taken over where I live, and for that,
I deeply apologize. No, no, but it The issue I'm
running into is a lot of like being in Minnesota,

(56:46):
most everyone that I interact with on a daily basis
is not Indigenous or First Nations, And a lot of
the practitioners around are your run of the mill MLM pedaling, Oh,

(57:08):
crystal pea, We're like, uh, yeah, no, this is for healing,
and these are like uh like there's a local beach
shop and it's like, oh, well these are this is
Indian stage and it's like no, shut up.

Speaker 2 (57:31):
Yeah yeah.

Speaker 7 (57:33):
So I don't know where I would find people. I
suppose I should just do more research into it.

Speaker 1 (57:41):
Just definitely do and and you you know, you may
be really really benefited from that research. I know that
when I got involved with with some Native groups where
I grew up in southern California, it was through a
friend who was one of the whitest people I know

(58:03):
who started showing up and and and was invited to
do it to a sweat lodge and started like getting
involved with with ceremonies and was invited and they were
just absolutely embraced because they listened and just wanted to
be involved. And so yeah, definitely look into it and

(58:25):
and and let me know how it goes. But as
far as like non First Nations people, uh, people's even
in the comments, people are like Celtic stuff, you know,
if that's something you want to check out too, just
beware of the weird al right pipeline that exists in
there somewhere. And and and I have heard the term,

(58:49):
I've heard of the term snow tap, and that's something
to look out for. Yeah, yeah, google it, you'll you'll
see it's it's critty. But at the same time, like
I just want you to find those things that are
gonna benefit you and in your well being, you know.
And if taking part in different rituals and things like

(59:10):
that are are fulfilling and satisfying to you in the
ways that you need it to be, you know, and
you're not putting people out and you're understanding what benefit
it has for you, then all the power to you.

Speaker 4 (59:21):
You know.

Speaker 2 (59:23):
Yeah, I'm definitely supportive of it.

Speaker 3 (59:27):
Yeah, I guess.

Speaker 7 (59:30):
I guess maybe calling in to you specifically wouldn't have
you should I should have known better as you're.

Speaker 4 (59:38):
Of it's correct.

Speaker 1 (59:41):
Yeah, yeah, so I I my when it comes to
my indigenous heritage, it's Aztec.

Speaker 2 (59:49):
So I have asked that roots. I know, right, It's
it's funny because it's.

Speaker 1 (59:55):
Like, I know, I have a whole lot more, but
the to direct link is my grandmother's side, and I
feel so disconnected from it that I haven't wanted to
like express myself as a part of that because it's
not a community that I you know that that there
are not communities that I've grown up in that that
have like kept.

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
A lot of any of that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
And so really my only way of connecting has been food,
and I've been really enjoying that. Uh But but yeah,
I I I I hope things go well for you, Ashley,
And I'm really I'm really glad that that you called in.

Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
Thank you.

Speaker 4 (01:00:38):
Yeah, yeah, I.

Speaker 7 (01:00:41):
Was hoping to turn this into a more like the
Hampy thing as you were waiting for.

Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
No, you honestly, between you and the last caller, I've
got some more callers who came in and this was perfect.
I really appreciate it. Thank you for looking out.

Speaker 5 (01:00:55):
I've done good.

Speaker 3 (01:00:56):
You did, you did, and I.

Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
Hope you haven't.

Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
Wonderful rest of your day, and stay stay tuned. Thank
you for watching the show.

Speaker 5 (01:01:04):
Yeah, we'll talk at you later.

Speaker 7 (01:01:07):
Thank you so much, Eric for everything you do for
the skeptic communities and shout outs to be again because
they are awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:01:15):
They are awesome.

Speaker 5 (01:01:18):
When you give that.

Speaker 7 (01:01:19):
When you see them next, give them an extra big
hug from all of the people they have helped.

Speaker 1 (01:01:26):
I absolutely will you. I'll be seeing them right after
the show. I'm just going to go back upstairs and
probably make us breakfast, so we'll do.

Speaker 4 (01:01:35):
Heck, yeah already.

Speaker 5 (01:01:37):
You have a wonderful rest of your day.

Speaker 2 (01:01:38):
All right, you too, Take care, Ashley, good bye. What
a sweetheart.

Speaker 1 (01:01:45):
People in the in the comments I saw, THEO fung
guy had a comment that really kind of stood out
for me said, if a placebo helps someone relax, that's
not much of a problem. It's when they cure that's
lethal or can be lethal. I would I would amend,
and yeah, placebos are interesting. I've had long conversations with

(01:02:06):
Visa both v about placebos, and I don't know if
I'm necessarily fully comfortable with the conclusions that I've come
to when it comes to that kind of thing. So
I will be shifting my views and you'll probably see
that on air over time. In the meantime, though, I
have Sarah in Washington. Hey, Hi, Sarah, you are an

(01:02:31):
ex Mormon who saw a ghost.

Speaker 3 (01:02:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (01:02:35):
I like thinking I had two things I could talk about.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
Okay, you know me a little bit.

Speaker 8 (01:02:41):
We've talked before about this and you know, over Google
calls and stuff. But I was Mormon for twenty years
and I have in Why I Left story. Also, when
I was a kid, I saw a ghost and I'm
still not sure what I believe in as far as
that goes. I have no reason to take that ghosts surreal.

(01:03:05):
So which which, when you ever want to talk about
what we can we can talk about that?

Speaker 1 (01:03:09):
Oh I So I tend to have found I tend
to find that on atheist shows Why I Left conversations
are not as interesting for viewers.

Speaker 6 (01:03:19):
And so I'm fair.

Speaker 1 (01:03:21):
Yeah, so I'm definitely more interested in the ghost story
because you know, as a non believer at this point,
what is it that you are wondering about, like, can
you give me like a short kind of synopsis and
then maybe we can interact with that idea.

Speaker 8 (01:03:39):
When I was very young, I lived in an old shack.
This is this all leading up to this, That was
on sacred Indian hunting grounds. Luckily not burial girls that
we're aware of. We had a lot of events occur there,
things like doors opening on their own. I mean it

(01:03:59):
was also a shack too. I mean there were literally
poles in the kitchen for snakes would come up out
of them.

Speaker 5 (01:04:04):
That was.

Speaker 8 (01:04:06):
This being you know, the late eighties, and we didn't
have a lot of contact or the internet. We just
kind of had ourselves to rely on for these kind
of things. My mom had visions and dreams there.

Speaker 4 (01:04:17):
She saw some stuff.

Speaker 8 (01:04:18):
I could tell you more about that, But one in
particular night, I was feeling kind of scared. I was awake.
I was maybe like four or five years old. This
was middle of the night, and a man in my
mind's eye I would as I would say it dressed
in full Southern Confederate Army garb as I now recognize

(01:04:42):
it because I didn't know what it was then. That's
what gets me came to my bedside, climbed up and
hid in the top of my closet, and as they
was looking down at me, puts his finger up to
his lips and goes hush and says something like, I'll
protect you. And that same time, my mom heard what
she thought was something demonic or something like with heavy

(01:05:05):
footsteps and she walking past her, and she had some
pretty adverse experience that night too. I could ask her
more in detail about her side of it, but what
I remember most is exactly what this guy looked like,
which was so weird.

Speaker 2 (01:05:19):
Yeah, well, what are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 1 (01:05:22):
Absolutely? So I have my own ghost stories, and it's
a number of things, you know. The first is kind
of the simple explanations of us as humans.

Speaker 2 (01:05:39):
Seeing things. Do you do you know what paradolia is?

Speaker 6 (01:05:46):
I do?

Speaker 2 (01:05:46):
Yeah, yeah, kind of looking up.

Speaker 1 (01:05:48):
Into the clouds and seeing shapes, you know, and going oh,
that's a bunny rabbit, Oh that's a face, right, And
I think humans are hardwired to find faces in the noise,
to find any kinds of you know, patterns where there
may not be patterns, because from an evolutionary sampoint, we're
benefited by doing that. And when it comes to stories

(01:06:09):
of you know, our childhood, I think, well, first off,
I know that the science is in the data is
in that every time we interact with a memory, we
change that memory. It's just the way our brains work.
When you remember something, you were accessing it in a

(01:06:29):
way that is pliable, and the more you access it,
the more things change.

Speaker 2 (01:06:34):
It's kind of the the.

Speaker 1 (01:06:37):
Source of you know, when people talk about fish stories,
you know, and that fish getting bigger and bigger every time.
It's not necessarily a it's not necessarily because the person
telling the story is wanting it to be more fantastic,
but because every time they interacted with that memory, it
slightly changed. And I remember personally having a ghost story

(01:06:59):
and thinking on an old woman and all kinds of
stuff and realizing that early versions of that story were
less detailed, and yeah, and I wasn't remembering more. I
was adding more, and I was finding ways for it

(01:07:19):
to make sense by adding in things. And it's the
exact same way that our brains are working all of
the time. You know, you're only taking in so much information.
Your brain is just kind of filling in the rest.
And when it comes to repeating those stories, I think
that by no fault of your own, you know, like
most people, I think that that would more likely be
an implanted memory, not saying that there wasn't a source

(01:07:42):
of it, but that there could be something with a
naturalithic explanation that has grown over time, you know, especially
when you get more and more people involved.

Speaker 2 (01:07:51):
There was a.

Speaker 1 (01:07:55):
A mini documentary that I had seen years ago where
there were people who wanted to study exorcisms, who went
to I gosh, I don't even remember what country it was,
but they wanted to go see kind of how other
tribes were treating kind of this phenomena that was like exorcism,

(01:08:18):
and they went and filmed this, and then on the
plane they were talking about it, and when they got back,
they're like, oh my gosh, you're not gonna believe it.
You know, this person floated in the air and there
were all of these like supernatural things that were happening,
and they all had this amazing description of the event.
And then when they went back to the tape, that's

(01:08:39):
not what happened.

Speaker 4 (01:08:40):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:08:41):
Over the course of like a week or two.

Speaker 1 (01:08:43):
They had collaboratively built up what had happened into this
massive supernatural event and I don't think any of them
are lying. I don't think any of them have necessarily
bad memories, are dumb in any way. In fact, it's
just how our brains work.

Speaker 4 (01:09:00):
And so.

Speaker 1 (01:09:02):
My explanation for stuff like that is, I guess I'm
more readily accept the idea that it's something that we
construct over time, especially when it comes to our childhoods,
that belds into the things like that.

Speaker 2 (01:09:17):
Right.

Speaker 8 (01:09:18):
The only thing that I still can't get over in
my head is just how detailed I remember it.

Speaker 4 (01:09:23):
As it was then.

Speaker 8 (01:09:25):
And maybe I am adding some ideas, I'm not entirely sure,
but I still remember the face, and I still remember
the hat and the top of the uniform which really
stood out to me. And my mom still holds this
over me. She's what I call a buffet believer.

Speaker 5 (01:09:44):
Yeah, she picks and chooses what she likes.

Speaker 8 (01:09:46):
Out of Mormonism and doesn't actually go. But so she
still holds that over me, going, but you saw you
saw this ghost, And I'm thinking, did I really?

Speaker 4 (01:09:58):
I don't know?

Speaker 1 (01:09:59):
I mean, yeah, because she probably has had a lot
of influence in the way that that memory has formed
for you. And by the way, in my church we
call them cafeteria Christians.

Speaker 2 (01:10:07):
So I'm like, I get it. I get it, picking
and choosing.

Speaker 8 (01:10:11):
Yeah, she's a buffet believer, cafeteria Christian. We'll see, that's single.
She was Mormon, so not technically all Christian.

Speaker 1 (01:10:18):
Right, Well, so if you're asking a Mormon they believe themselves.

Speaker 2 (01:10:22):
To be Christians?

Speaker 6 (01:10:23):
Oh yeah, yeah, we did, we did.

Speaker 2 (01:10:26):
Yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (01:10:29):
I you know, it's it's funny, you know when people
bring that up. I if you tell me a Christian, fine,
I am so not in the in the business of
adjudicating who gets to call themselves that? So sure, why not?

Speaker 2 (01:10:43):
You know they're Christians? Okay? Cool? But yeah, I I.

Speaker 1 (01:10:49):
I think the thing I would walk away with is
this wish that I could go back in time and
talk to five year old Sarah and see how five
year old Sarah would have described the event and whether
or not that much detail was there then and how
much detail has been added since then. You know, Yeah,
because I like, at the core of it, even if

(01:11:11):
it happened yesterday, Ultimately, you know, when it comes to
an unexplained event, that's exactly what it is. Unexplained and
something like that happening, I you know, it's not necessarily
evidence of supernatural anything, but it could be any number

(01:11:33):
of things that I'd love to explore.

Speaker 2 (01:11:35):
I just wish we could.

Speaker 8 (01:11:37):
You know, what would you say to a believer who
thinks that I'm just putting blinders on now that I
don't believe that. I've just like, there's just I'm putting
on blinders.

Speaker 4 (01:11:49):
So now like.

Speaker 8 (01:11:52):
No, now that I'm out of the church and stuff,
I've been out now like that, but ten years or so,
and I don't believe in much of that stuff. I'm
not seeing it really happen at all. I mean, I'm
not having cabinet door shut, I'm not having coffee munks
being thrown out or whatever. And so she's saying that,
you know that the influencer there, but they're just not

(01:12:13):
able to affect me because I refuse to see it.
So what would you say to somebody who says, you
put on blinders you're just not seeing it.

Speaker 1 (01:12:22):
Well, So that is a really interesting accusation because part
of the reason why you know, people who really love
that kind of stuff see it all the time is
because when you're tuned into it, you look for stuff
that can fit that explanation and you start collecting them.
You know, the same has been true for you know,
if you have like let's say you're shopping for a

(01:12:43):
car and you're really really wanting to buy a Super
U out Back.

Speaker 2 (01:12:46):
You're like, that's the car I'm gonna buy.

Speaker 1 (01:12:47):
For the next few weeks, you're gonna see nothing but
Super U Outbacks on the road. Not necessarily because there's
been an increase, but because you are now tuned into it,
and you are going to see them and remember them
everywhere you go, and those kinds of things are going
to be how you you know, you picking that kind
of stuff out. It's a really interesting phenomena. You know,

(01:13:08):
also numbers certain uh, you know, random assortments of numbers.
People go, oh, wow, you know this number has followed
me all my life. Well, no, you've been around numbers
all the time. You just remember all the times that
one thing happened because you're tuned into it. It's just
kind of how our brands work. But ultimately, when it
comes to that, what kind of fucking weak sauce demons

(01:13:30):
are there that oh if you don't want to pay
attention to them, then damn it, they just.

Speaker 2 (01:13:34):
Can't haunt you. Anymore. Oh no, Like at that point you.

Speaker 1 (01:13:39):
Would have to you'd have to say that whatever you know, spirits,
those were.

Speaker 2 (01:13:46):
They're pretty pathetic.

Speaker 1 (01:13:48):
Usually when it comes to true things about the world,
they're true whether you like it or not. And if
if the case is that you know you being haunting,
depend haunted to ends on whether or not you are
open to being haunted. I mean, I wouldn't tell your
mom it this way, but that sounds real stupid, it does.

Speaker 2 (01:14:11):
And and and that isn't to say that, like God,
even now.

Speaker 8 (01:14:15):
You know you're she's very she's very emotionally intelligent.

Speaker 1 (01:14:20):
Yeah, and and and it's not necessarily that you are
not your ideas. I have so many different stupid things
about things that I believe it has nothing to do
with the person at all, because I have the power
to grow and learn, you know. But I've had some
really really wonky ideas, you know, so definitely in no
way reflects on her. It's just that that is a
really silly thing to believe.

Speaker 2 (01:14:43):
But yeah, no, I I I.

Speaker 1 (01:14:46):
There there's so many ways to go with it, and
I just I wish that we had the time to
dive into it.

Speaker 8 (01:14:51):
But is there is there like an email address to
the show or something like that.

Speaker 2 (01:14:57):
There is.

Speaker 1 (01:15:00):
It's contact Skeptic Generation at gmail dot com.

Speaker 4 (01:15:04):
But I will tell you Skeptic Generation.

Speaker 2 (01:15:06):
Okay, I'll tell you right now though, Sarah. Yeah, it's
just me.

Speaker 1 (01:15:12):
And I'm currently looking for work. I'm doing contract work
and like this is just my side thing, and so
my ability to respond to stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:15:23):
Is real bad right now.

Speaker 1 (01:15:27):
Yeah, but I do advise that you check out the
discord and check out the comments because there's an amazing
community here that would probably love to engage.

Speaker 4 (01:15:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (01:15:37):
Absolutely, Yeah. So before I go, yea of the whitest
kids you know of them?

Speaker 2 (01:15:47):
Oh yeah, the Canadian improv group, right.

Speaker 8 (01:15:52):
Canadians? No, no, no, they were like they want to
conquest Trevor Moore the rest of peace, like Trevor Boards.

Speaker 4 (01:16:01):
I think I was from Virginia.

Speaker 2 (01:16:02):
Okay, so I think I was thinking of kids in
the hall.

Speaker 6 (01:16:07):
That's what you're thinking of.

Speaker 8 (01:16:08):
Yes, it's just like kids in the hall. Okay, there's
demon wija board sketch.

Speaker 2 (01:16:14):
Look it up, we'll do.

Speaker 8 (01:16:15):
He was like, oh, I'm a demon. I wish demons
had the ability to cut. It's really funny.

Speaker 2 (01:16:22):
Yeah, it's the.

Speaker 8 (01:16:23):
It's these teenage thirteen year old girls will grown men
dressed as teenage thirteen year old girls.

Speaker 2 (01:16:28):
Of course they're asking spirit.

Speaker 8 (01:16:32):
Is Bobby gonna ask me out?

Speaker 6 (01:16:33):
Well?

Speaker 8 (01:16:33):
Have like twenty two kids? Oh no, no, and he's
just there, He's just on wija board duties. It's hilarious.

Speaker 1 (01:16:41):
I will absolutely check it out. Maybe maybe I'll watch
it with with the people in the after show on Discord.
I will definitely check it out. Sarah, thank you for
calling in.

Speaker 8 (01:16:51):
Yeah, you're right, demons don't have any powers.

Speaker 4 (01:16:54):
No, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:16:58):
I you know all of this in response to something
being demonic, the idea that something is demonic, and you
can have that entire conversation without ever having to say, oh, well,
I don't believe in demons because that, you know, just
going into what possible explanations people have, you know, it
can be sufficient. I know that there are other ways

(01:17:19):
to have that conversation, but I felt that was the
right way to have that conversation.

Speaker 5 (01:17:22):
For sure.

Speaker 1 (01:17:23):
We've got a couple more callers that I would love
to take. Let's move on to Chelsea in North Carolina. Chelsea,
you are live on skeptic generation.

Speaker 4 (01:17:33):
That I am? How are you?

Speaker 3 (01:17:35):
I am?

Speaker 2 (01:17:36):
Good.

Speaker 1 (01:17:36):
Let me turn down your volume. You are coming in
loud and clear. I want to make sure that we
are even What did you want to talk about today?

Speaker 4 (01:17:45):
How shoots?

Speaker 9 (01:17:46):
Sorry, it happens every time I know what I want
to talk about, and then like I get so excited
and it just.

Speaker 2 (01:17:56):
No, that's okay, let me help. Let's see. I guess
that's okay.

Speaker 9 (01:18:02):
Anyway it.

Speaker 2 (01:18:06):
Oh, I was gonna I was going to kick it off,
No worry.

Speaker 1 (01:18:09):
It says in the notes that you want to talk
about what's the best way to meet people where they're
at and have productive conversations that sound about right?

Speaker 9 (01:18:17):
That's right?

Speaker 5 (01:18:19):
Correct?

Speaker 2 (01:18:20):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:18:21):
What? What?

Speaker 6 (01:18:21):
What?

Speaker 8 (01:18:21):
What?

Speaker 2 (01:18:21):
What set this off?

Speaker 9 (01:18:25):
Nothing really set it off. I just thought to be
a good conversation for the show. Honestly, I appreciate you know,
me and New York we're talking right now, and we're like,
you know, the subject is how do we best talk
people not necessarily change their mind, but just reach them
where they're at.

Speaker 2 (01:18:46):
Yeah, So does that make sense? It doesn't.

Speaker 1 (01:18:48):
It really depends on your relationship with those people. So
are you talking more about strangers and wanting to find
places to have those conversations, or are you talking about
strategies for talking to friends, family, loved one, coworkers, or
like what you know, what's the context around this?

Speaker 9 (01:19:08):
Really it's anyone. So are you saying since you're saying
either or, do you mean I'm just asking for your perspective.
Do you mean if it's either or this and that,
does it does between how you talk to them?

Speaker 2 (01:19:23):
Absolutely? Absolutely, so.

Speaker 1 (01:19:28):
I think the first would be, you know, the people
who are close to me, right my my close family
members and things like that. When I really started that
whole deconversion process, and once I realized I'm an atheist
and I'm watching atheist shows, I wanted to talk to
believers because I wanted to kind of reenact the kinds
of conversations that I was seeing online.

Speaker 2 (01:19:49):
You know, at the time, I was.

Speaker 1 (01:19:50):
Watching a lot of Matt Dill hunting, and I wanted
to have my own Matt Dilla hunting moment, even if
that came at the expense of my family members, you know,
who are going to get slammed and owned. And he
doesn't even know that leaves that language, but the you know,
the fans do. But yeah, I think that No. But

(01:20:14):
but for a lot of people who leave the who
leave their religion. You know, at least for me, I
was really angry and it was really satisfying to me.

Speaker 9 (01:20:24):
There's utility in getting at your anger. But yeah, productive
is the question.

Speaker 1 (01:20:29):
Well, I you know, at the time, I wasn't thinking
about that. But I will tell you that when you
want to have those kinds of conversations that are aggressive,
families maybe not the people to have those conversations with,
you know, because there's a cost benefit analysis to you know,
how important that is to you, and how important those
relationships are to you, and you know what kind of

(01:20:51):
you know, things are you doing to to have a
positive relationship with people that you love, and what are
the benefits and the costs. So that is a different thing, right,
and that is not taken into account when you're talking
to a stranger.

Speaker 4 (01:21:06):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:21:06):
There are street epistemologists if you check out Anthony Magnabosco
or the many many street epistemologists on YouTube who are amazing.
They have a full methodology that they've used to set
up and be able to initiate, you know, not initiate.

Speaker 2 (01:21:24):
Instigate, I think it's the word. These conversations with strangers, no.

Speaker 1 (01:21:30):
Worries, it's not instantially, I think it's instigating, but either
way to start these conversations with believers about what they
believe in, why, and there's a whole kind of structure
around those questions and how to interact with it that
I think is. I feel like it's a lot nicer

(01:21:50):
of a way to start those conversations with strangers, because
strangers don't necessarily want to have those conversations with you,
and so confronting random people on the street can make
you an asshole if you're not you're not careful. And
I feel like I got a story about that, about
being an asshole on the street.

Speaker 9 (01:22:09):
Not an asshole necessarily just angering someone with just being
calm and collective and just having a polite conversation. But
yet they were getting angry, Yeah what I was saying,
because it's so so they're so opposed to what I
was saying that it just infuriated them.

Speaker 2 (01:22:29):
Yeah, yeah, I was, Obviously I was.

Speaker 9 (01:22:31):
I feel opposite, completely opposite of what they felt. Let
me just tell the stories, all right.

Speaker 1 (01:22:37):
As long as it's as long as it's not like
a really long one, because I tend to lose people
who are viewing if they're if they're long stories, but
if it helps contextualize what we're talking about, then.

Speaker 9 (01:22:46):
Sure, yeah, it helped, but I'll try to keep it
as short as possible. I can't go on tangents, so
just if I ever, you know tangent.

Speaker 1 (01:22:56):
As an experienced toast, I'll rainy and I promise go
for it.

Speaker 3 (01:23:00):
Okay.

Speaker 9 (01:23:02):
So I was at my friend's workplace one day and
I was just there to visit and talk chat with him.
He said I could do that, so I could just
visit him and talk. However, while I was waiting to
talk to him, he was helping another customer in the back.
And when that customer had a husband, her husband, I

(01:23:27):
was talking to her husband and this other random dude.

Speaker 3 (01:23:33):
Strangers.

Speaker 9 (01:23:34):
They're strangers, the best strangers to me. I don't know them,
and the subject matter was like, let's just say, I
can't remember exact subject matter, something about belief. And by
the end of the conversation, the husband for the husband

(01:23:57):
left for because the okay, let's just say this. The
husband left before the conversation ended, and I think the
husband embarrassed himself and the other guy that I was
talking to because the other guy he shook my hand

(01:24:17):
afterward he appreciate my calm demeanor even though he disagreed.

Speaker 1 (01:24:22):
Yeah, and and and I you know, being able to
approach things like that is admirable, and it's not always
necessarily achievable. So yeah, having having those specific conversations, I
have found there are groups of people, both in religious
and non religious communities, who are dying to have those dialogues.

(01:24:43):
And I know that recently I had Elliott Secularity on
as a guest who in Well, you're in North Carolina.

Speaker 2 (01:24:53):
I believe Elliot's in Tennessee.

Speaker 1 (01:24:56):
But there are groups, especially throughout the South, where believers
and non believers will get together and talk. If I
look up like the Bible and Beer Consortium.

Speaker 2 (01:25:09):
Or or other, I'm sorry, that's in North Carolina.

Speaker 1 (01:25:15):
I so it was all over the place. It was
in Texas and numerous places throughout the South. There are
definitely some really really cool places to be, and I
know that there are some churches that really really enjoy
having non believers to come in and talk that kind
of stuff out. If if I were you, I think
that to scratch that itch. See if you can find

(01:25:39):
local community things where you can do that in person,
and you know.

Speaker 2 (01:25:42):
Find those people see there you go. It sounds like
you don't find that.

Speaker 9 (01:25:48):
It's a freaking church. I have not been to the
church in all the time. Well that's a kind of
a five right there. I haven't vinced in my old
church in all the time. Like I got a new family,
chosen family, I've been going to their church. I'm still
not a believer. I just go there for community as
well as just to listen, you know, and maybe I

(01:26:10):
might jump in for my own two cents. And they
don't mind that either. They like dialogue, don't push me away.
They don't shut me down, sit down, shut up your
opinions that matters.

Speaker 3 (01:26:21):
They don't do that.

Speaker 2 (01:26:22):
It's a lot o night.

Speaker 9 (01:26:25):
Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that. Hey, I feel completely welcome there.
I'm glad and mom is a pastor there, so that's
probably why.

Speaker 2 (01:26:35):
Ah, I love that.

Speaker 6 (01:26:37):
I do.

Speaker 1 (01:26:38):
You know how many how often I talk to PK's
pastor kids who don't have a relationship with their family anymore.
The fact that you have a chosen family that loves you,
supports you, and has brought you in even though like.

Speaker 2 (01:26:52):
That's beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:26:53):
See, if we lived in a world where more people
were like that, I wouldn't do this show, yeah, but
I'm happy to hear that that's the case for other people, Chelsea,
thank you for calling in. And yeah, when it comes
to that, I think you have found the best way
to meet people where they're at. So I think, yeah,

(01:27:17):
it sounds like you're doing.

Speaker 9 (01:27:18):
Great, and you're doing great too, So don't don't don't
I want to. I don't want to hear you say
I'm not doing that very like, you know, with like
conversation stuff that you are. You're doing good wurg out there.

Speaker 2 (01:27:29):
I really appreciate it.

Speaker 4 (01:27:30):
Thank you.

Speaker 9 (01:27:31):
Thank you, like not just like it's calm demeanor, I
like common demeanor, ever just you know, being rash.

Speaker 2 (01:27:39):
And me too. I know that it's not as like exciting,
you know, for.

Speaker 1 (01:27:46):
Yeah, it's it's not no, that's okay, it's not as clippable,
but you know what, it's something I love to do
and I think that it's something that we need to
have good examples of, and so I'm happy to do it.

Speaker 2 (01:27:58):
Chelsea.

Speaker 1 (01:27:58):
I'm gonna move on to the next call, but thank
you for calling in. It was nice talking to you,
you too, Bye.

Speaker 2 (01:28:07):
Bye, Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:28:11):
I we have a related call next and I kind
of just want to roll into this. We have Pete
in California who wants to discuss tactics and converting slash
de converting people from ideologies, and how sometimes atheists talk
past their audiences. Oh boy, Pete, you some atheists, A
lot of atheists. Oh my, I still oh yeah, I.

Speaker 4 (01:28:34):
Mean pretty good.

Speaker 2 (01:28:37):
I can be a bit of a preck. I mean.

Speaker 4 (01:28:40):
Sometimes that's got to be there from the old tool
box with somebody recently stated fair enough. But yeah, I
was just wondering. You know, I listened to a bunch
of these, and there's a bunch of people who call
that could be slipped easily, and they don't get slip it.

Speaker 2 (01:29:00):
I disagree.

Speaker 4 (01:29:01):
That kind of depressing a little bit, but why And
then there's all the other things too, about talking past
one another, and yeah, sometimes some host will speak on
such a higher plane that there's no way your caller
even understands a third of what the host is saying.
Oh yeah, oh yeah, it's not very productive.

Speaker 1 (01:29:25):
Not necessarily, there are places for it. I I personally
put it in the category of naval gazing, and I
love navel gazing. It is fun to get real, real
deep into the arcane, uh, pieces of some philosophies, But
I agree, And at the same time, I don't think

(01:29:48):
that necessarily most people can be flipped the way you're
the way you're saying it. When you say flipped, in
my mind it sounds like you're saying flipped from believe
it or non believer. Is that what you're saying really
changed of mine? I highly doubt that. What makes you
think that that's the case.

Speaker 4 (01:30:05):
Because I've done it a hundred million times. There's you know,
I'm from Modesto here, and there's if there's people listening
from Modesto, they know me. And I mean religiously. I
went to church here for a long time and not
any longer. But you can. I've been able to talk

(01:30:26):
to people and get them to see a different point
of view. Okay, And it's not hard, and it's not
And this is this is the thing. I mean, this
is why I was asking about the mission statement, because
it's not always about the facts. There's a lot of
time it's just about the hearts and minds of the
people you're talking to. And when you can recognize the

(01:30:48):
wheel spinning and who you're talking to, it's not hard.

Speaker 2 (01:30:52):
Well, it depends.

Speaker 1 (01:30:54):
I mean, when I hear that someone has flipped their
opinions over and over and over again, my question for them, Yeah,
my question for them is is how are they grounding
their understanding of the world, you know, what is their
epistemic justification for the things that they believe? And whether
I whether we come to the same conclusion or not.

(01:31:14):
I want to help them have better reasons for believing
the things that they believe. And so, yeah, and that
comes with a lot of reflection, investigation, and reapproaching the
same issue over and over again for most people until
they can kind of wrap their head around the difference.

Speaker 4 (01:31:36):
There's a depressing aspect of that.

Speaker 5 (01:31:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:31:39):
I'm somewhat of an engineer and inventored okay, and I
have invented so many things just to find out that
some prick already did it that it makes me angry.
So when I hear all these arguments, you know, if
I want to, if somebody hits me with a oh hell,
what's an evolutionary bull shit about how they think that

(01:32:01):
makes their religion true, I've already got r and raw.
You've got the uh, the young doctor.

Speaker 2 (01:32:07):
With the foup on his head, what's his name, doctor Ben.

Speaker 4 (01:32:11):
I wish I didn't have to relearn everything every morning.

Speaker 2 (01:32:14):
What's that student, doctor Ben?

Speaker 6 (01:32:18):
I've seen him to know Valkyrie, Uh Forrest Falci. Yes, yeah,
now these guys can shred. These guys and they have
the answers, and they're to me, it's not worth.

Speaker 4 (01:32:32):
My time to have to go out and relearn all
that unless I was in the field, like you know
they are like for instance, well definitely.

Speaker 1 (01:32:39):
I mean it really depends on what you call the field.
I mean most of us are lay people with normal
day jobs.

Speaker 4 (01:32:45):
Their medical and evolution evolutionary field, so.

Speaker 1 (01:32:51):
Being, I haven't interacted with Forest very much. Actually, I
think that we were kind of ships passing in the.

Speaker 4 (01:32:58):
Night head in that direction.

Speaker 1 (01:33:01):
Maybe yeah, maybe I should check them out. I've heard
a lot of really good things.

Speaker 4 (01:33:07):
But all the things, I'm sorry, I don't want to know.
All the things that you were saying are absolutely correct
and essential, but there's I'm just thinking an element not
like I said, I think you're excellent. You talk to
the people, you don't climb up in their ass every
time they get out of line in the ny way,
shape or form, and that's all good and they feel

(01:33:28):
like you're a heartfelt person that actually cares about them
and that's the most important thing right there.

Speaker 1 (01:33:35):
Well, I try, I mean the best of my ability.
I just the way that you're approaching it sounds it
sounds kind of flippant, the idea that you know it
can be done so easily.

Speaker 4 (01:33:48):
No, I wouldn't go so far as to say that, Okay, okay,
but you know, because there's a hell of a lot
more to it, it's going to get crammed into it, however,
long call this is. I So what you're saying, First off,
you got to know you're right. And the thing is
is that when I say that I do not have
evidence for a god, and I most certainly don't have

(01:34:11):
evidence enough that's going to make me sign up and
go up and do all that other stuff. I mean,
there's definitely not enough evidence to believe in a god
to give your life over to it.

Speaker 1 (01:34:27):
I I while I agree, what do you mean by
you got to know you're right?

Speaker 4 (01:34:34):
You have to know you have to come correct. In
other words, you know, if you're going to say that
evolution is correct, know that evolution is correct and have
the facts, and you have that.

Speaker 1 (01:34:46):
I think it really depends, because I've I've found myself
having the most beneficial conversations when I don't know, you know,
and I'm clear and I'm you well, I I mean,
really honestly, I think that if you don't know, then
that is the best time to explore as much as

(01:35:08):
you can to learn. And that's part of why I
want to talk about it, is because if I don't
know a thing, I want us to be able to
have conversations that are uncomfortable, and they can be really
uncomfortable when we don't fully know.

Speaker 2 (01:35:24):
And I think that.

Speaker 1 (01:35:27):
Being open to changing your mind, you know, slowly over time,
or just bouncing ideas off each other and using each
other as as as you know, a.

Speaker 2 (01:35:40):
Spring thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:35:41):
That's the word I was trying to find. Yes, uh,
you know, to bounce those ideas off of it is
incredibly important. If you only have conversations that you absolutely
know you're right on, it feels like a really boring
place to be because you're only setting yourself up to
have conversations that you already know the answer to.

Speaker 2 (01:35:58):
I love conversations that I don't.

Speaker 4 (01:36:00):
Walk into a room and there's people having conversations, so
I go to the group that they're talking about what
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:36:08):
See there you go, then well then that's true.

Speaker 4 (01:36:12):
Everything that you said is absolutely correct, and I agree
and there too. Yeah, just everything comes together, you know,
and the person that you're going to talk to isn't
always going to be the person you're trying to convert.

Speaker 1 (01:36:28):
Well, and you're not necessarily always wanting to try and
convert anybody that that that kind of goes to like
a you know, the the Great Commission ideology. I'm not
necessarily wanting to convert anybody. What I do want is
for people to have good reasons to believe the things
that they believe. And if I have my spin on it,
it's too exemplify compassion, empathy, and patience whenever it's appropriate,

(01:36:55):
because those are what I want people to use when
they have that conversation with their family. And if they
haven't seen it happen, then hopefully they can see it
here and maybe have an idea of the way that
they want to do that in their own lives. But yeah,
I don't know, is there anything else that you wanted
to talk about specifically on this call?

Speaker 4 (01:37:17):
My advice I was going to give you, but you.

Speaker 2 (01:37:20):
Know, what's against the advice?

Speaker 4 (01:37:23):
Oh, I negates the advice I was going to give you. Oh,
most of the people that call are not as educated
and know as much as our hosts.

Speaker 2 (01:37:42):
Pete, what education do you think I have?

Speaker 4 (01:37:49):
May I ask a question to that question? Sir?

Speaker 2 (01:37:52):
Sure, why not go for it?

Speaker 4 (01:37:54):
I'm an open vocation. Do you think I have.

Speaker 2 (01:37:58):
No idea? But I will tell you from myself.

Speaker 4 (01:38:01):
I made it to the eighth grade.

Speaker 2 (01:38:04):
Cheers.

Speaker 1 (01:38:04):
I made it to twelfth and I didn't graduate. Yeah,
I didn't graduate college.

Speaker 4 (01:38:11):
That That's what I mean by that is that doesn't
really mean anything to me. You know, when I hear you,
I hear an intelligent young man regardless.

Speaker 2 (01:38:20):
Love appreciate you.

Speaker 4 (01:38:21):
I education, but that recognize people for who they are.
I'm pretty good at it. And that's also one of
the things that you know helps me well, that help
people out of erroneous ideas well.

Speaker 1 (01:38:35):
That the statement you were making sounded like you were
saying that most people don't are not as educated as
as the host.

Speaker 2 (01:38:41):
And I'm a host and I'm just one of the
best I can.

Speaker 4 (01:38:45):
People are not that smart. I mean overall, I mean, Pete,
they're great people, Pete, great people. I'm not trying to,
but when it comes to what I understand, it's it's
you know, I sometimes it's so far over their head
that I feel sorry.

Speaker 2 (01:39:04):
You know, I don't know about that, Pete.

Speaker 1 (01:39:07):
I'm not that smart and I'm not and I'm I'm
occasionally okay people, but like, I don't know, I.

Speaker 4 (01:39:15):
Feel like you're not that smart. Where you quit saying
smart things like I'm not that smart, because that's one
of the smartest things you can say.

Speaker 2 (01:39:24):
I I don't know, I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:39:26):
What I do know is that you're intelligent, young man,
yielding it in a perfect way. I appreciate that overlording
on anybody. You're not bull rushing anybody, You're that's intelligence.
I did you know I I feel like trying to
blow smoke up your ass.

Speaker 1 (01:39:45):
Of God, I appreciate that. I appreciate that. I just
think that the way that I want to begin conversations
is as charitable as possible, and so I want to
assume that, well, yeah, and so I want to assume
that the person I'm talking to is as smart as

(01:40:05):
can be. I don't want to ever make the assumption
that somebody is otherwise, because I feel like that ends
my ability to listen actively and have that conversation with them.

Speaker 2 (01:40:16):
So I don't know, I.

Speaker 4 (01:40:18):
Could not agree more. In fact, without the ability to
recognize the level that the people around you or on
you cannot be that's practically my call. That's the reason
practically that I called is because you know, people get
run over, they're not being recognized for who they are.

(01:40:39):
They got to be recognized for who they are.

Speaker 2 (01:40:42):
I agree dealt with on that level.

Speaker 4 (01:40:44):
That's what I'm trying to say. I guess, hey when
and I swear to God, there's been times I've watched
these shows and I do and sometimes I'll just let
them scroll without the sound on, just so that you
guys get the credit.

Speaker 1 (01:40:58):
For Well Pete, I sincerely appreciate that, But I think
that we've kind of gone far afield in this call.
We we we haven't really kind of dialed in on something.
So next time you call, let's see if we can
do what we.

Speaker 4 (01:41:13):
Were trying to do.

Speaker 2 (01:41:15):
No, I sincerely appreciate that.

Speaker 4 (01:41:17):
I can understand you, you know, because you do put,
in my opinion, a good job.

Speaker 2 (01:41:26):
Well, thank you. I'm I'm going to be talking to
the wrong guy, all right, Pete. You are just fine.
I appreciate you calling. Thank you well, you have a
good day, no worries, all right, take care Pete. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:41:45):
In the comments, I know some people are saying, you know,
where was this call going? Sometimes it'd be like that.
But the best thing I can do as a host
is try and and and find a through line and
go from there. Those suite of Pete and it sounds
like Pete has definitely was as an example utilizing me

(01:42:06):
as a springboard for some ideas, And while I don't
necessarily want this show to be a place for that
all of the time, hopefully it was helpful. With that said,
I think I'm gonna start wrapping things up. I think
we've been doing the show for over an hour and
a half and I do want to make myself some

(01:42:27):
more coffee. I would really really love to interact with
people in the Discord. So check out the description for
this video. You'll find the link to Discord and we're
going to go do an after show there. If you
like what I do and you want to support me,
I sincerely appreciate that. Go to patreon dot com slash
Skeptic Generation, where you can get your name added into
the end credits. I'm still working out Patreon stuff, but

(01:42:53):
any help really is sincerely appreciated. With that said, thank
you so much to the amazing callers and incredible volunteers
who helped make the show possible. And yeah, I think
that's about it. So with that said, I have this ready.
I think I have this ready until next week. I'm

(01:43:15):
Eric Murphy and I'm glad we've had this talk.

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What's in YOUR Toolbox? | Skeptic Generation | Episode 7 Season 3

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}What's in YOUR Toolbox? | Skeptic Generation | Episode 7 Season 3