BTVS S2E15 Phases

Teenage boys are like werewolves, their hormones take hold and completely lose control. And they sometimes grow fur and crave human flesh

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Have you ever read a were wolf romance?

Speaker 2 (00:01):
I've read Twilight New Moon, but beyond that, now pretty good.
What's your favorite one?

Speaker 1 (00:07):
My favorite one? Oh my god, Bride by Ali Ahead.
This leads to me my next question though, do you
think that Oz is in the omegaverse?

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Okay, omega verse. I'm gonna need you. I'm gonna need
you to correct me. Omegaverse is the like I'm an
alpha and I like they like get in heat like
animals do, and so then it's like I have to mate.
It's like, oh my gosh, I can't control myself. Yeah,
that's kind of I feel like the theme of this

(00:38):
whole episode. Yeah, it is like teen boy hormones are
like were wolves. So I would say OZ definitely is
in the omega verse, thank god. And you can find
more at fanfiction dot Net. Recovering Gleek.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
A clear Buffy podcast. Hello everyone, my name is Lena
and I'm Ian and welcome to Oh Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
We really have the same idea we did.

Speaker 1 (01:27):
Happy Full Moon a queer Buffy podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
When is the full moon? Let's look at the phases
of the moon right now, right now.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
I use the period tracking app that also tracks the
moon phases, so I'm going to check that app.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
I have maybe what maybe a stupid idea. Okay, no
idea question part of me? Sorry, Okay, here's a disclaimer
for the listeners. I am so exhausted right now. So
I've had a very long couple of days. So I
need all of us to just be patient if I

(02:02):
sound like a crazy person during the recording of this episode.
And also my WiFi is being a silly billy. But
we're here and we're doing our best. The next full
moon is December fourth, and this episode is going to
release on December third. Oh my god, it's the full tomorrow.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
Oh my god. If you're a were wolf, you better
lock yourself up.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
Hey, it's in from the future. Did I mention I
was exhausted when we recorded this The full moon was
last week. I read the calendar wrong. Sorry to all
my were wolves. By and by Buffy rules, tonight is
the first night were wolves come out, because the night
before night of the night after, So look out, all
you oz is out there. Lock yourself up, kiddos. Oh

(02:44):
my gosh, Oh my gosh. That's actually so cosmic.

Speaker 1 (02:47):
I love that.

Speaker 2 (02:49):
So here's the question that, like it might be it
might be a stupid question, and that I don't know
our menstrual cycles monthly be because of lunar cycles. No, okay, no,
what do you mean, Well, I don't know, like like yeah, well,

(03:14):
as Giles says in this episode, although there's no like
scientific evidence, although I guess the menstrual cycle would be
scientific evidence, He's like, although there's no like concrete scientific evidence,
it is, you know, the lunar cycle does tend to
have an effect on humans, Yes, and then I you know,
the lunar cycle tends to be monthly. Ish, I mean

(03:36):
menstral cycles are monthly. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
I don't know how linked they are. I do just
think that they are on sort of a similar schedule
where it's like, you know, twenty eight days, I don't
know later. Yeah, I don't think that, Like I've never
so sometimes like my period is like during the full moon.
Sometimes it's like not it all just like kind of depends.

(04:01):
And it's not really, at least for me ever, like
Super SYNCD like that, because it's not like a perfect
like you know, it's it's it's not like yeah sometimes
thirty days.

Speaker 2 (04:16):
It's not like, oh tonight's the crush of moon my
period starting.

Speaker 1 (04:21):
I think some people are regular, are that regular and
their periods do that, But I don't know them.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
I am there are some articles that I'm finding synchronization
of women's menstruation with the moon has decreased, but remains
detectable when gravitational pull is strong. I'm not the only
one questioning.

Speaker 1 (04:41):
This, Okay, okay, I literally I have not heard that,
but I'm that makes sense, like with the tides and stuff.

Speaker 2 (04:48):
Here is a nineteen six here's a nineteen eighty six
article published in the National Library of Medicine called the
Regulation of menstrual cycle and Relationship to the Moon.

Speaker 1 (05:02):
So, but then wouldn't we all have our periods around
the same time.

Speaker 2 (05:11):
You know, everyone's different and everyone reacts to the lunar
cycle differently. I guess I don't know. But then this
one is called the myth of moon phases in menstruation.
This one in News Medical is called why women's period
periods once synced with the moon and what change?

Speaker 1 (05:28):
What changed? Damn, I'm gonna have to read what.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
And this is written by a woman, So it's not
just like you know, dudes being like, so, what the
fucker periods. Many animal species have mating cycles that synchronize
with specific phases of the moon, either full or new moon.
Women's menstrual cycle is roughly as long as the lunar cycle. However,
there is a little evidence of an actual correlation between them.
A recent study published in Science Advances examines twenty four

(05:56):
years worth of menstrual records for lunar Mensi's association Asians.
So that's some reading for everyone. That's your homework is
to go to news hyphenbetical at.

Speaker 1 (06:08):
The back of the at the back of our essay.

Speaker 2 (06:11):
And read why women's periods one syncd with the moon
and what changed.

Speaker 1 (06:15):
I've been tracking my period like so steadily for so
many years, and it is like not random, but like
it is you know, it never lines up perfectly with anything.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
You know, Well, if it is true as this, The
first sentence of those article posits that many animal species
have mating cycles that synchronize the specific phases of the moon.
I wonder if you know, millions of years ago proto human,
you know, Neanderthal, I wonder if their mating cycles were

(06:50):
mimicking the lunar cycles, and then as we evolved, those
no longer were so closely attached. But you know, the
evolution it's still insa will. The evolution is still the
menstrual cycles of women still like stayed. The menstro cycles
still stayed roughly the same length as a lunar cycle.

(07:13):
Because you know, there once was once when we were
more animalistic. We you know, we were in the Omega Verse,
and we would have times when we were in heat
and we.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
Needed the Ogaverse.

Speaker 2 (07:26):
Did you know that we'll bring us back, bring human
humanity back to the Omega Verse.

Speaker 1 (07:30):
Oh my god, I've been really it was.

Speaker 2 (07:32):
A mistake to evolve past it.

Speaker 1 (07:35):
I know, God, it's not right. It's not right. I
last year for I think I might I may have
said this before, but my sister and our two best
friends and I we got together and we did like
a PowerPoint night, and I did a PowerPoint of like
my favorite books of the year, and then I gave
them all like a book partner, like a book boyfriend,

(07:55):
book girlfriend. And I also the other PowerPoint that I
made was the rules and Regulations of the Omegaverse, in
which I like showed them diagrams and like charts and
like read them some excerpts of like Omega verse romances.
It was so funny, Oh my god, And I keep

(08:20):
telling people about it and in the hopes they'll be like, oh,
let me see, and no one ever wants to see.

Speaker 2 (08:26):
Well, if you want to send them my way, I'll
check it out. Well, those regulations of the omegaverse.

Speaker 1 (08:30):
It's funnier if I read it to you and then
read you some of the romance. Because also, have you
heard of nodding?

Speaker 2 (08:38):
No, I have not heard of that.

Speaker 1 (08:40):
Okay, well, I can't tell you about it.

Speaker 2 (08:44):
When it what you cannot leave us hanging like that.

Speaker 1 (08:48):
I mean, those who know no, and.

Speaker 2 (08:52):
Those who don't know are going to find out right now.

Speaker 1 (08:54):
I know, I don't tell It's fine. I don't want
you to google it. Don't do it on your parents' computer.

Speaker 2 (09:00):
Right now?

Speaker 1 (09:02):
Okay, so you.

Speaker 2 (09:02):
Kind of a Google search nodding.

Speaker 1 (09:04):
Yeah. So there's this thing where okay, and so it
alphas and this isn't like gender specific, but it is
penis specific. So there can be lady alphas with wieners.
And don't you forget it. But during like like a

(09:25):
heat and a rut, which I can in my in
my PowerPoint, I have like all like all these like
glossary words. The biggest thing is and this happens in
canine This is gross. If you don't want to hear it,
this is sexual, so skip forward if you don't want
to hear it. Okay. And this happens in like canine species,

(09:47):
I think, where after the alpha ejaculates the base of
the member in gorgeous.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
This is true, and they're like stuck together. Yeah, this
is true.

Speaker 1 (10:00):
Yeah, and that's called nodding.

Speaker 2 (10:04):
Okay, And so it happens the Omega verse famous.

Speaker 1 (10:06):
Oh my god, it's like the biggest part of the
Omega Verse.

Speaker 2 (10:10):
Girl. Back in my when I was living in Argentina,
I would see I would see attached dogs a lot, oh,
like just three dogs, and I'd be like, du well,
I didn't know that it was called nodding, but it
was like, I know what you two have been up to.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
Oh gross, I mean, I mean that's circle of life.
I've never seen that. I've only ever read it in
a romance novel, in a fan fiction.

Speaker 2 (10:35):
I got in field experience. Oh my god, we are here.
We are here not to talk about nodding. We are
here to talk about the Omega verse a little bit,
and that we're here about faes the Buffy the Vampire
Syre episode. We gets an episode, OZ gets an episode.

Speaker 1 (10:56):
Ray hooray, hooray.

Speaker 2 (10:57):
Do you want to hear some slacks about faces?

Speaker 1 (11:00):
I'd love to.

Speaker 2 (11:00):
Oh yeah, it's time. This is the fifteenth episode of
season two. It is the twenty seventh episode overall. It
was released on January twenty seventh, nineteen ninety eight. I'm
pausing a lot because my Wi fi is getting so

(11:21):
bad and I'm trying to give it a chance to
get it shpped together. It was written by Robda's Hotel
with Dean Batali. You might remember they're the two that
wrote the Bubby Vampire Slayer video game. I bring it
up every time they ride an episode. They also wrote
like the Puppet Show and Never Kill a Guy in
the First Date and other episodes. And it was directed

(11:44):
you know, a very big OZ episode. Seth Green has
a lot to do in this episode and fitting because
it was directed by Bruce Seth Green.

Speaker 1 (11:54):
Big Seth Green episode.

Speaker 2 (11:58):
A huge episode for Seth means everywhere. Of course, my god,
Rob does Hotel has said that Phases is his favorite
episode of the ones that he wrote. He said quote,
OZ just has an ability to pinpoint what's going on

(12:18):
and make it sound absurd. I think there's a sweetness
to him in phases. Willa comes up to him and
says hi, and Oz says, that's what I was gonna say.
Big Oz had that Rob does hotel and this speaking
of Oz and speaking of the Seth Greens of the world,
the script for this episode is what persuaded Seth Green
to stay on with the show and continue in a

(12:40):
larger role. I don't think necessarily he was like I'm
gonna quit, but like he was brought on the show
as a guest star. You know, it wasn't really his
contract wasn't like You're gonna be on forever and ever
and ever. It was just he disagreed to a few
episodes and then I think they were trying to get
him to agree to be in more episodes. And when

(13:01):
he got this script is when he was like, Okay, actually, yes,
I will sign the new contract and like stay on
for a long The actor who plays Caine the Werewolf Hunter,
his name is Jack Conley. He later appears as the
character Sajan in Angel Uh and then Keith Campbell, who

(13:24):
is in the werewolf costume, who plays Oz and Wolf Form.
He appears on Angel as well as a club manager
in the episode Judgment Sajon on Angel is like a
multi episode character, and then after this episode, future appearances
of Oz's wolf form look very different. They are much

(13:47):
less wolf like like in this one, he is light brown,
He's got a snout. He looks like a man in
a wolf suit. In future episodes he looks kind of
like a monkey. H they like make him darker. They
nix the snout. He's got more of a human face.
You'll see it when he comes back around. In this episode,

(14:11):
Cordelia says that Xander is wearing too much obsession for dorks.
This is a reference to the Calvin Klein cologne obsession
for men.

Speaker 1 (14:21):
That's so funny. I love that.

Speaker 2 (14:23):
And Xander tells Buffy that without her, Willow would be
Robbie the robots Love Slave, which obviously is a reference
to I Robot, You Jane with Mollik, but him saying
Robbie the Robot is a reference to the nineteen fifty
six film Forbidden Planet, in which the robot character is
named Robby, which did you know? That movie is The
Tempest by William Shakespeare, No.

Speaker 1 (14:45):
Not at all. I honestly don't know about the Tempest,
even though I covered for it, and the woman that
I covered she one time she was like, I'm not
feeling well, and someone was like, are you going to
take off the Tempest? She's like, no, I don't trust
my might understood it to go on? And it was
me and I was in the room. I was like,
what the hell I know?

Speaker 2 (15:04):
Were you understudying Miranda? Who are you understudying?

Speaker 1 (15:07):
I was understudying the one who owned the brothel?

Speaker 2 (15:12):
Girl. You really don't know the fucking Tempest because you're
talking about Pericles right now.

Speaker 1 (15:17):
Pericles, Oh my god, they're both water Shakespeare. Give me
a break.

Speaker 2 (15:21):
I literally was like, when did you understudy the Tempest?

Speaker 1 (15:27):
No? I totally didn't. I'm just thinking about water Shakespeare.
That's so funny. No wonder she entrusts me to go on.
I'm literally like, I'm memorizing the wrong script. Okay, I
know the Tempest way more than I know Pericles.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yes, which forbidden a Bidden Planet is the Tempest and
Francis Starz in Forbidden Planet, it is the Tempest and
Francis plays the Miranda character. If I'm not mistaken, Robbie.
The robot is Ariel. But I've never seen Forbidden Planet,
but like I would assume if there's a robot character,

(16:08):
he's either gonna be Caliban or Ariel. Yeah, so I'm
saying Ariel. And we got a band of the Bronze.
It's been a long time since we had a band
of the Bronze, So bring that jingle back in he's playing.
The band of the Bronze is Lotion. They're singing their

(16:31):
song blind for now. And let me tell you, there
is not a lot of information about Lotion. Everything I
looked up was just like listening their discography, which sure,
but I'm not just going to list a name of
songs that sounds from. Yeah, they are from the East Village.
I do know that they were formed in nineteen ninety

(16:52):
one in the East Village in New York. The members
are Bill and Jim Ferguson, who are brothers. Bill plays
the bass, Gim plays guitar, Rob Youngberg who plays the drums,
and then Tony Zazkowski who is the vocalist and plays guitar.
And they I'm pretty sure are still together, Like they

(17:13):
just come together and do shows super super infrequently. I'm
talking like years apart, they'll just be like, let's do
a show.

Speaker 1 (17:22):
That's awesome.

Speaker 2 (17:23):
But I do think they are still officially together. But
really the only thing anyone ever talks about is how
for one of their albums, Thomas Pinchin wrote the liner notes,
who's like a famous author, And everyone's like, how they
get Thomas Pinsion to write the liner notes? And that's
the only fact I could find about them. And I
was like, can anyone say anything else about this band? Please?

(17:44):
The answer was no, So that's all you get on lotion.
And now I'll reduce some alternative titles. Some of the
titles are just phases, the phases phases of the moon.
We got a few unique ones though. We have an
Italian full Moon Night, we have in Japanese Night of
the Wolf, Hungarian Transformation, German the Werewolf Hunter. German really said,

(18:11):
this episode is about mister Kane. It's not about Oz,
it's not about Buffy. It's about mister Kine. It is
his story. French Full Moon, Czech Werewolf in Sunnydale, Armenian Wires,
which I'm very lost. I'm kind of like this this

(18:34):
is a mistranslation. Did someone like accidentally mistranslate the Armenian
because wires makes no.

Speaker 1 (18:41):
Sense to me, oh sense, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
I wonder if it's like, here's my theory that I'm
positing and I don't know, and I don't speak Armenian
at all, but I wonder if it's a situation where
like wires and fur are the same, are like synonyms

(19:10):
not synonyms?

Speaker 1 (19:11):
Sure? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (19:12):
But there what's the word for for two separate words
that are pronounced the same way. There's a there's a
term for that, and it's not coming to me right,
But I wonder if like wires in fur, it is
like the same word, and so it's actually called something
like fur, but then when they translated it, they were
just like wires. That is my theory. And then my

(19:33):
favorite title is the finished title, which is Curse of
the Full Moon. Okay, that's cute, and those are slacks.

Speaker 1 (19:45):
Thank you? You're ready for a recap?

Speaker 2 (19:47):
Hell yeah?

Speaker 1 (19:48):
Hell yeah? And then we'll get into this shit. I'm
excited to hear what you thought about this episode. Don't
tell me yet, because I'm going to read you a recap.
Okay ready. Previously on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, All Men
are dogs except for Giles. Oz isn't picking up on
Willow's cues. Larry the school bully, won't stop objectifying women.

(20:08):
Xander won't stop obsessing over Willy and Buffy, much to
cordelia chagrin. And there's a werewolf on the loose, and
there's one sick motherfucker who keeps getting in Buffy and
Dyles's way, and it is planning to care to kill
the werewolf even though that's like a person probably, but
who is it? Turns out it's Oz, who is bitten
by a cousin who is a werewolf. Huh, that's why

(20:31):
he had all those chains in his house. Angel is
still around and kills Buffy's friend Teresa. What a jerk.
And I've always said that Buffy and Xander share a
charged hug. God give me strength. Xander is convinced that
the wear is Larry and corners him. Turns out he's
not a were wolf, he's just gay. Willow tells the

(20:52):
rest of the gang that the werewolf is Oz, and
it's a race between the woman hater, werewolf killer and
the Scoobies to see who can get to first. It's
the Scoobs and they trank him and it's all okay.
Willow kisses Oz and Buffy tells Xander to knock it off,
and that's what you missed on Buffy the Vampires.

Speaker 2 (21:09):
There does Buffy tells Xander to knock it off.

Speaker 1 (21:15):
In the conversation, Xander is like, if it was me,
and I just want to keep her safe, like she
shouldn't like go see him anymore. And if it was
up to me, that's what it was. Not about their
sexually charged hug that goes untalked about.

Speaker 2 (21:34):
But I hated that shit.

Speaker 1 (21:36):
No, I know, God give me strength. I literally was like, please, nope,
please leave my girl alone. Leave her alone.

Speaker 2 (21:45):
Yeah, that's why I asked that, because I was like,
as far as I know, that charge tug is still
hanging in the air. No, I really wish they would
just nip it in the butt.

Speaker 1 (21:57):
Yeah, even like the way Xanders said, like, yeah, my
life isn't complicated enough. Yeah, me watching the show is
not complicated enough. Give me one more thing to stress
out over. Thanks. I just like, ugh, I don't know,
leave this girl alone. Oh my god. Okay, what did
you think of Faces? Coming off the back of a

(22:17):
really strong episode. I think it would be hard for
any episode to sit in this place?

Speaker 2 (22:23):
Do you not like this episode?

Speaker 1 (22:25):
No? I like this episode a lot.

Speaker 2 (22:28):
I am a massive fan. I really a good.

Speaker 1 (22:33):
Good I'm glad. No, I'm glad. I really like this episode.
I do think, though, I think it pales in comparison. Yeah,
innocence obviously.

Speaker 2 (22:45):
Yes, I agree, but also they do you know, the
whole Angel killing Teresa is keeping the Angel threat present,
and then beyond that, specifically, Buffy is so down on
herself and feels so guilty this whole episode that I

(23:08):
do think, like it doesn't bother me at all. If
if Buffy was like PEPPI sassy, happy Buffy in this episode,
I would really hate it. But I can feel the
weight of what has just happened in all of her scenes,
and I can tell that she the wind is out
of her sails and stuff like Teresa's death is hitting

(23:30):
her much harder. Yeah, because she feels personally responsible for
everything Angel is doing.

Speaker 1 (23:39):
Yeah, I mean I think even before she knows that
it was Angel who did it and she hears about Teresa,
she feels really responsible before, Like, yeah, I think in
a way that she never has before, Like she feels
really protective over the end higher Town, and like then

(24:02):
she hears it's Angel and now it's especially her fault. Like,
you know, I think this girl is more stressed than.

Speaker 2 (24:09):
Ever, and she so quickly is like, I'm just going
to kill this were wolf. Like obviously at the beginning,
she she wants to, you know, bring it to justice,
but once she finds out that Teresa is dead, she's like,
all that's her off. I don't care if this is
a human twenty eight days of the month, like, I'm

(24:29):
going to kill it. And I think that's largely she's
in a dark place because of what just happened to her.
I think with Buffy having just experienced I had a
boyfriend and he seemed like the greatest guy in the world,
and actually he was a monster. I think one, she's
incredibly down on all men in this episode, and then two,

(24:52):
oh my gosh, she is much quicker to jump to
I don't really fucking care that this werewolf is a person. Yeah,
it killed someone and it's a monster. And I think
a part of her is like and I should have
killed Angel, Like I when I first met Angel, I
knew he was a vampire, and I didn't kill him

(25:13):
because I was like, oh, but he's like a good
vampire and look at what has happened, and I can't
let that happen again, Like I can't get blinders on
because I'm so focused on the humanity in this monster. Yeah.
So all this to say, yes, of course, like it's
not as good as Innocence, I also don't think it
has to be. But I feel like it's not a

(25:34):
letdown in any way to me because we have good
to hear that we have so much season left. We
can't like stay at that level for the entire rest
of the season, and I feel like the the influence
of that episode is being felt in this one.

Speaker 1 (25:52):
Yeah, okay, I love that.

Speaker 2 (25:53):
Yeah, what are your what? How'd you like it?

Speaker 1 (25:56):
I liked it a lot, especially really liked it on
the second watch. I like, you know, especially picking up
on what you said, like Buffy just like this episode
and its attitude towards the boys in at Sunnydale, the
boys in Buffy's life, and like how you know, I

(26:22):
really enjoyed that, Like men are dogs and they do
be acting like that and sometimes they're werewolves. So I
thought it was super, super super fun And I love
oz One of my favorite moments was when Oz calls
his aunt.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
I love that scene. I agree, I know.

Speaker 1 (26:40):
Me do or she? This is the most like even
keeled kid I've ever met. He calls his aunt, he goes, hey,
is mom, what's the joy? Cousin's name? Is Jordia a werewolf? Uh? Yeah,
I get that? Okay, well loved uncle Will's face?

Speaker 2 (26:57):
So is my favorite is Jordia werewolf? Uh huh? And
how long has that been going on?

Speaker 1 (27:03):
Yes? So like not only is he so even killed
like also like that I can tell that his aunt
is this way too, Like it's like a familial attitude
they all have. My god, it really was making me laugh.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
If you knew your six year old was a werewolf
and he bit his cousin, yeah, can you'll be like, oh, Oz,
I have some news for you, like get ready for
some like anthropy. Brother, your whole world's about.

Speaker 1 (27:34):
To change, like canthropy for real? For real? I that
part made me laugh so fucking hard. I don't know.
And I also just like I love Willow. I think
this whole season has really been like become more confident.
And we start the episode with her being like, gosh,

(27:56):
I keep dropping all these hints and like Oz is
not picking them up and I'm feeling so like rejected,
and I guess he doesn't YadA YadA, yadda, and then
her like taking it into her own hands in the end,
and like luckily finding Oz and being the one who
sees Oz turn into a werewolf so then she can
tell the scoobies. And then in the end her being

(28:16):
the one to be like, hey, I've seen your phases
and I think we should still see each other, and
like taking initiative and then also kissing him first because
we know from the last episode that he was like,
I'm going to wait until you are one percent ready.
And then for her to be the one to say
not to say, and to act on it. I like,

(28:37):
that's a confident young woman and I'm so proud of
her and I love her so much. And ugh, it
was just so thrilling. I loved that so much.

Speaker 2 (28:46):
Hell yeah, hell yeah yeah. I agree. Now on the
then our dog's aspect, Yeah, I feel like the werewolf
ism of it all, I think is wearing a couple hats.
I think it's representative of quite a few things personally, Okay,

(29:08):
as far as like high school, as a horror movie goes.
The most obvious is men are dogs. The most obvious
is like, I remember when I was a teenager, adults
describing teen boys as wear wolves and being like, yeah, hey,
young women, be careful when you are alone with a boy,
because you know they're hormones. They're like wear wolves. Like,

(29:29):
it doesn't matter how nice or respectful you might think
he is. Behind closed doors, you don't know what's going
to happen, which I think is good advice to be
giving young girls, Like I appreciate that, but I have
I as a teenager, heard the like teen boys are
wear wolves analogy, and I do think that's a large
part of this, just a large part of this episode

(29:51):
with you know, Larry is objectifying women and being pervy,
Caine is talking down to women and treating Buffy like
a child. Yeah, I so many of the men in
this episode, pretty much every man except for Giles is
mistreating women and showing aspects of toxic masculinity. And then

(30:17):
Oz at the end of the day, the man who
is the most seems the most emotionally emotionally intelligent, the
most even keeled, the least likely to like have this
dark side is ultimately the one who's a vampire, a
vampire part of me, a werewolf, like you never know,
be careful, especially around men, like you never know what
is brewing. I also feel like it is a bit

(30:40):
of a metaphor for mental illness, specifically with Oz, and
I also, on top of that, feel like it's a
bit of a metaphor for queerness.

Speaker 1 (30:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:49):
I think all three of those things are kind of
holding hands. I think with the mental illness thing you have,
Oz has this great, big secret because you know, obviously
the like men were wolves, is like he might turn
violent on you, or he might, you know, really objectify
you or try and take advantage of you. But then

(31:09):
the way that Oz feels about his lacanthropy feels like
a mental illness that he's like, I have this side
of me that I can't let anyone know about that
is like evil and awful. And when he when Willow
finds out and he's like, why would you want to
be with me? When like three days out of the month,

(31:31):
I am this thing like why would you want to
be with me? When I have this part of my
brain that takes over and I go to like such
a dark place. Yeah, So I do feel like it
is kind of a metaphor for mental illness and loving
someone who is who has a mental illness, and then
feeling accepting love when you are the person who has

(31:51):
mental illness, and then the queer thing. I do think
gay Larry is intentional, like I think I think Lair
coming out as gay, and specifically, when Oz finds out
that he's the werewolf, he wakes up in the forest
and he knows a werewolf has been seen, and he's like,
oh shit, it's me, and he walks into the library

(32:13):
the next day. I feel like, kind of with the
intention of being like, hey, everyone, I have news. I'm
a werewolf, and the first thing he hears is Buffy
being like I'm going to kill that killing and killing
this motherfucker tonight, and everyone being like werel's fucking suck
wearrels or evil. Wereolves are not people, and then Oz
feels such shame and it's like I can't talk to
any of these people and then starts to isolate himself.

(32:36):
That felt very being in the closet to me, and
obviously like I can put that read on anything, but
the fact that they have Larry literally coming out of
the closet in this episode. I was like, Oh, I
think that's actually the writer's acknowledging that this is also
a metaphor for queerness.

Speaker 1 (32:51):
Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 2 (32:53):
Yeah, I think it's I think the werewolf is is
doing a lot of work in this episode. And I
love all three reads.

Speaker 1 (32:59):
That I got on No, I love that so much. Dang,
you're cooking tonight.

Speaker 2 (33:06):
It's because it's because Rob does hotel and Dean Batali
we're cooking.

Speaker 1 (33:10):
When they wrote this script, they said it's my favorite,
It's my favorite thing I ever read.

Speaker 2 (33:13):
Just I think this episode is really strong and it's
kind of exactly what a great Monster of the Week is,
where it's like a fun romp, a fun like that
everything is resolved within the forty five minutes, but also
the monster we're dealing with has personal effects on our

(33:37):
lead characters. It's not just random monster that is like
scary shit but we don't care about.

Speaker 1 (33:42):
It's like, actually, this monster is our friend too.

Speaker 2 (33:44):
Yeah. Yes, it is having an emotional effect on us,
and it is, you know, showing us new shades to
the characters. I think it's a very very strong episode.

Speaker 1 (33:55):
That is a wonderful thought and I so agree with
everything you said. Oh hey, how do we want to
break it down like this?

Speaker 2 (34:06):
I don't know. I do want to say before I
forget that now that we have got to this episode,
I can finally reveal a hilarious joke that you made
and what's my line? Part one that we had.

Speaker 1 (34:19):
Ms from people asking what this one.

Speaker 2 (34:21):
Which was when we were talking about who the Scoobies
were in the Mystery Gang and we were trying to
figure out who was Scooby Doo and we ultimately settled
on No. One as Scooby Doo. And that's because we
couldn't say who was actually Scooby Doo, which is when
we were thinking of that, Lena said, is Oz Scooby Doo?
And to that, I say, absolutely, our dear dog boy

(34:47):
is Scooby Doo.

Speaker 1 (34:49):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (34:50):
It was an excellent joke. It was a very very
cute joke.

Speaker 1 (34:54):
Thank you. I genuinely had people in my dms being like,
did you say Oz for real? And I was like,
of course, I love were wolves. I think we wolves
are so fun. I think like I love vampires obviously
the most. That's my number one, number one, number one,
number one, number one girl. Have I talked to you

(35:16):
about number one Girl.

Speaker 2 (35:17):
Before the song?

Speaker 1 (35:19):
Yeah? No, Well it was a song I remember my
sophomore year of high school. My first year of high school,
some guy did like a rap to his own.

Speaker 2 (35:31):
You have told me this story, but tell it see
that's and I have internalized that so much that I
thought it was a real song. I was like, this
is a song everyone knows. No, it is a story
that you told me. Continue to continue.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
And he just he brought his girlfriend up on stage.
This was like the school talent show. And all I
remember was you my number one, number one, number one,
number one, number one, number one on girl. And it
made such an impact on me and my high school friends.
And I remember being a senior and being like, none
of these idiots know what number one girl is. And

(36:05):
I still I still reference number one, number one, number one,
number one, number one, number one girl all the freaking time. Anyways,
So all this to say, you guys, go sing that too.
I literally couldn't even tell you who's sang that, who
like wrapped that at my high school at all, or
who the girl was. I think they were older than me,
so I wouldn't have known them. But if you're out
there listening. Please let me know who you are. Please

(36:27):
send me your sound your SoundCloud link. I need to
listen to that song one more time before I die.

Speaker 2 (36:33):
Oh that's your vampires, baby.

Speaker 1 (36:36):
No, seriously, that's my number one girl. But I love
wear wolves and especially like I. You know, obviously I
read my romance novels. Shift or Romance is huge, you
know omega verse, that's everywhere. I love that shit I
and I won't lie to you guys. I think that
stuff is fun. So I think were wolves are very

(36:58):
very very fun.

Speaker 2 (36:59):
Really quick. And maybe I have told this on the podcast.
I don't know, but I have a similar thing that
I literally almost referenced. I don't remember what the situation was,
but I almost said it to someone last week because
I was like, oh, this is a thing that everyone
knows about. And I was like, no, this is just
specific to your high school talent.

Speaker 1 (37:18):
Show, yeap, which was not that talent sho too.

Speaker 2 (37:22):
I know. It's very similar. There was a scream o
band that performed at my high school talent show that
was called Awake and Aroused. That was their band name,
You're joking, and the song their original song that they
performed was called Love is Lust, and it was you're joking,
you know, it's a bunch of high schooler's doing scream ohs,
so you can't really understand what they're saying. But I

(37:44):
remember it love is lost, and it makes you thrust
about love. It is lost, and I it's very similar that,
like for years one for years, like me and Aaron
and a few of our friends would references to each other.
But like, yeah, I to this day am like that's

(38:04):
a classic song and no one else, no one knows.

Speaker 1 (38:09):
I have a few things like that. I also remember
boy bands were huge at my high school, like just
like five boys would get together and like, you know,
do a bad cover of what Makes You Beautiful? Oh yeah,
And I'm sorry, I'll call it bad here on the podcast,
but I remember one of the names of the bands
was Davis County Downpour, which I'm like, Okay, that's gold.

(38:33):
You guys should still be together. So I still every
time it's raining, I'm like, Davi's County Downpoor.

Speaker 2 (38:39):
There was Some of my friends in high school had
a band called Famous Next Sunday that I think I
actually I've never said their name, but I like referenced
them on the podcast before.

Speaker 1 (38:49):
I feel like I've heard that. I feel like I've
heard this day.

Speaker 2 (38:53):
A part of me is like they need to get
back together and go pro because that is such a
fucking good band name. You guys are sitting on a
fortune by not pursuing this more because that name rules.

Speaker 1 (39:06):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 (39:07):
Oh well, also, I think one of them might listen
so highlanded.

Speaker 1 (39:13):
Oh my god, get the band back together together, come on,
it's almost Sunday waiting. What a funny experience that, like
so many people have had. But also like you can't
even explain it, you know what I mean, Like because
I have like told people about number one, number one,
number one, number one guru. But like my if I

(39:35):
if I got a genie I would make I would
get an m P three of that song so I
could share it to my friends, you know what I mean,
or even better MP four so we can see the
girl on stage.

Speaker 2 (39:47):
Oh my god, that diva awaken Aroused. Used to have
I literally just try to find it. They used to
have their audition for the Talent Show. They had someone
come in and film it and they put it on
YouTube so you could like just watch their audition and

(40:07):
it's gone. It's the internet now. That is so tragic.

Speaker 1 (40:11):
Because I really shameful of our teenage self. No, I
needed to hear be weird. Seriously. I a good friend
of mine, a friend of his wrote him a song
for his birthday, and I've only heard it one time,
but I try to sing that song as much as possible,

(40:31):
so I never forget it's it's gone, it's gone history.
I have to pass it down. Yes, and they took
it down because they're too embarrassed of like something they
did when they were fifteen. And I'm like, no, you
don't understand. It's iconic. That show means that platinum in
my household. Yes, we have become too shameful of our

(40:51):
teenage selves.

Speaker 2 (40:52):
This is actually how and you know, everyone can do
their own thing, but this is how I feel when
people like wipe over their entire social media and start
from scratch, and I'm like, no, the joy is that,
like your weird team self is preserved an amber in there.

Speaker 1 (41:04):
Somewhere, yes, like yes, exactly. Like I like that you
can scroll.

Speaker 2 (41:09):
And see like and see like filters.

Speaker 1 (41:12):
On one photo. Like that's fun.

Speaker 2 (41:15):
Yeah, I feel the same way.

Speaker 1 (41:16):
It's like I'm not gonna I'm not trying to trick
you guys like I wasn't born in twenty twenty two.

Speaker 2 (41:21):
Seriously, I'm like that little weird loser that's me. He's
still no.

Speaker 1 (41:25):
I so agree. I Also, I am one of my
biggest pet peeves literally ever, is when people post like
a picture of them like being an awkwardine like and
then a picture of them now like looking gorgeous, and
it's like, I'm so glad you look gorgeous and like
that you feel more sure of yourself now, but like
it's not a hashtag glow up like to like make
fun of yourself like going through puberty. Like to me,

(41:48):
like that's cringey boots, like stop, Like, of course you
were awkward.

Speaker 2 (41:52):
You're fourteen, you're supposed fourteen.

Speaker 1 (41:54):
You're fourteen. And also that fourteen year old lives in
your heart. Yeah, yeah, that is one of my biggest
pet Actually, you know, ugly, you were fourteen, and that's.

Speaker 2 (42:03):
Just that's just the phases of growing up.

Speaker 1 (42:07):
You know what Oz literally said, go with food changes.
He literally said those words. I was so excited. Oh
my god, Okay, where do we begin? Were bringing maybe Oz,
maybe I don't. Maybe Xander, Oh, I guess maybe. I
guess this episode does have a proper subplot. I was
gonna say, a Buffy is not working the way that

(42:29):
Glee worked, where it was like here's the clear.

Speaker 2 (42:30):
A, B, and C plot. Buffy tends to be like
here's the plot period, and everyone's orbiting the plot. So
I feel like it is just more stream of consciousness
when we talk about it. But it is true that
Xander does have a clear B plot in this episode. Yeah,
I can talk about Xander.

Speaker 1 (42:49):
It's just my habit. Oh No, I just like to
break it down by character, you know, the vibes. Yeah,
have you ever felt like a werewolf?

Speaker 2 (43:02):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (43:04):
Yeah, this could. I'm just trying to transition into something.

Speaker 2 (43:07):
I mean, I think just talking about werewolf's is a concept,
is something we can do. And if I have ever
felt like a werewolf, I do think it is true,
especially as a teenager. And I'll just speacause you know
the teenage boy experience what I had. It is, you know,
I was never gonna like abuse anyone. I was never

(43:30):
gonna like turn violent on anyone, but like, hormones are crazy,
and especially as a teen you do get horny, horny, horny,
like you do as a team, you get horny, horny,
horny and like and then even beyond like libido, like
you just your emotions will get so strong you'll just
get like so fucking angry about things and then the

(43:51):
next day be like that actually wasn't a big deal.
I think that is the human experience, but especially as
a teenager, when your body is like firing on all cylinders,
I think everyone has a I think a were wolf,
I should say, is a very apt comparison, because you
just have this like the way that Giles describes it,

(44:11):
where he's like a werewolf is the most animalistic part
of you. It is like all of your instincts and
all of your desires with absolutely none of your common
sense and none of your awareness.

Speaker 1 (44:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:29):
I think that's a good pick to represent what it's
like to be a teenager and to have extremely strong
emotions and hormones going on and just be like acting
in crisis constantly.

Speaker 1 (44:41):
Yeah, totally.

Speaker 2 (44:43):
Have you ever felt like a were wolf?

Speaker 1 (44:46):
Yeah? For sure? No act no, yes, definitely. I think
not in the like horny angry, but like so sad,
I feel like my skin's on fire, like like nothing
can like nothing can make me feel better, Like I

(45:06):
feel like the worst ever, like, and it's like sometimes
I just have to, like like especially as a teenager,
I just have to like cry so hard, and then
you know, all of a sudden, I'm like fine, and
I'm like ready to like go do something else, like
you know, just like a wave of huge emotion would

(45:27):
like crash over me. Yeah that still happens, but in
that way.

Speaker 2 (45:31):
Yes, And I something I really love about this episode
is that it's not it doesn't resolve in oh my gosh,
and we found the cure for werewolf ism and Oz
we're now taking it out of here. Yeah, this monster
is a part of Oz. It will always be a
part of him, and Oz at the beginning feels so
much shame and so much horror and embarrassment that this

(45:54):
thing exists inside of him. And then Willa was like,
I don't really care. Like the evil is not in
the monster. The evil is in what you do with
the monster. And if we work together to like keep
the monster under control, then like that's fine. I actually
love that part of you and it's not an issue.
And I think as teenagers, I mean, like Gaul being

(46:19):
a teenage boy and having teenage boy hormones and then
also being raised so religious. I genuinely any time that
I had a sexual urge, I was like I am
the scum of the earth, Like I'm such a piece
of shit. If like anyone knew that I had had
that feeling, they would never ever want to talk to

(46:40):
me again. And it's it's like, it's actually not that
big of a deal. If you were to like act
on that feeling in a way that was harmful to
another person, that is a big deal. But if you're
having that feeling and you're channeling it in ways that
are not harmful, then like who the fuck cares. That's

(47:02):
just a part of you. That's just a part of
who you are. And this wolf is just a part
of who Oz is and it is not a bad part.
It is just a part that he needs to keep
under control.

Speaker 1 (47:12):
Yeah, that's one of my favorite parts of this episode.
And especially like Buffy in the beginning is like, you know,
especially she is like so one convinced it's a boy,
and Xander goes like, hey, on, behalf of my gender,
back off, and then Buffy says, like I didn't have
to jump to conclusions. It was literally right there, like

(47:32):
I just had to take a step. First of all,
I love that interaction. Second of all, my favorite thing
about that scene is what Giles says. And Giles says
like it doesn't matter if it's a girl or a
boy or anyone who's been bit also like non binary inclusion.
Thanks Giles. I loved that. That was awesome. But you

(47:53):
know he's like, it doesn't matter who it is. That's
still a person who was you know, put into a
situation that they didn't know that they were going to
be in, and they're still a person. Like we need
to treat them with respect, and so like we are
going to trap them. We're going to treat them with respect,
and then to have also this guy can come in

(48:13):
here and be like the exact opposite of Giles where
Giles is so staunch and like no, we have to
like trap it and we have to trap them and
like bring them somewhere where we can get them help.
And then this guy is like, no, we have to
kill them. And how like toxic masculinity like jumps to
those huge like violent reactions. I was really I was

(48:40):
just really intrigued by all of these things. That this
episode was proposing, but especially I loved Giles coming from
a place of like non toxic masculinity and like respect.
I loved that very, very very much.

Speaker 2 (48:54):
And also Giles is viewing them as this is a
person with this condition, and Kine is viewing it as
this is a condition with a person like Kine is
viewing this is a wolf who just happens to turn
into a human, and Giles is viewing it as this
is a human who just happens to turn into a wolf.
And I think that works on all of the analogies

(49:17):
for vampirism. I keep saying vampirism because it's in the
title of the show, but I mean leacanthropy, but especially
like on the mental illness front. You know, if someone
has something like bipolar disorder, if someone like gets really manic,
and there are people who view those episodes and are

(49:38):
like they view it as like you were that person
who you know, cussed me out, who did this, that
and the other whatever happens when you are at your
lowest point with your mental illness. Whereas Gios is advocating like, no,
that is a human being who is suffering from something,
and yeah, we can't just let it run wild. We

(49:59):
can't just be like, oh, well, like there are humans,
so like we should turn a blind eye, but like
we have to remember that they are a human being
and our first. The first thing we are trying to
do is get them help.

Speaker 1 (50:10):
That's on harm reductions exactly exactly. I love that. Yeah, now,
I love that. I think that's wonderful.

Speaker 2 (50:19):
I also love one. I'm team Giles in this.

Speaker 1 (50:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:25):
I love that we have were wolves in this show.
It is such an iconic monster, and I love that
Giles is nerding out over the fact that we have werewolves.
It is so fun, so silly, so cute.

Speaker 1 (50:37):
No girl, that was me. He was like, oh wow,
this will be so excited. Me and my books are
gonna have such a wonderful afternoon. I was like, that's me.
Oh my god, I love that was one of my
favorite parts of the whole episode. And they're like, god,
he's so late, but I was like, gosh, that Giles,
he's my best friend.

Speaker 2 (50:52):
The idea that like he's dedicated his whole life to
learning about monsters and he keeps getting all these fucking
demons and then he's like, oh my gosh, like this
is one of the big ones, like everyone knows about wirrelves,
Like there's movies about werewolves. I can't believe I actually
get to like deal with a werewolve today, And the
fact that it makes him so giddy and cheery. Yeah,

(51:12):
that he laughs at Xander's moonpie joke. That is one
of my favorite Giles moments in the entire Shower, making
his dumb ass moonpie joke, something he does every episode
that usually Giles either is apathetic towards or actively is
like Xander, Pleace, shut up, this is serious, and instead

(51:34):
Giles being in such a good mood nerding out about
werewolves that he like falls into a fit of giggles,
and the hard cut to Buffy and Willow staring at
each other excellent, excellent, fantastic.

Speaker 1 (51:47):
Can we also Giles was just that's my dad. I
love him so fucking much. When Cain sees Buffy and
Giles in the forest and makes this god awful, desc
gusting asqu comment about like something so pervy to Buffy,
I like can't even utter it, but like, you know,

(52:07):
something like so pedophilic and weird, and Giles literally is like, oh,
I'm gonna beat your ass and Buffy has to like
hold him back. I was like, that's my dad. I
love him so fucking much, because that's the thing is,
you know, he is an incredibly wonderful, empathetic person. But like, also,

(52:31):
you're not gonna let exactly, He's not gonna let you
talk to him like that or talk to his girl.
His daughter liked that. Giles, you're my number one, number one,
number one, number one, number one number one girl. Oh Giles, do.

Speaker 2 (52:45):
You want to talk about zandoin Gaylary?

Speaker 1 (52:48):
Yes, I would love to. I would love to hear
what you think about it. I was like, looking online,
I think people feel like a lot of different ways
about it. I like it. I also feel like, first
you know, canon gay character on Buffy, like that's awesome.
And I also feel like obviously Xander is uncomfortable, but

(53:10):
I feel like after that, like Larry is like, you know,
I don't know, like it's like played incredibly sincere. I
don't know I liked it or what did you think?

Speaker 2 (53:21):
I love gay Larry. This is why in Halloween I
was like, this is the first appearance of Larry, and
both you and cry Baby were like, who the fuck?
And I said, there is something about Larry that if
I tell you, you will remember who it is. And it
is this scene, this scene of Xander accidentally getting Larry
to come out because Xander thinks they're talking about being

(53:43):
a werewolf, yes, and Xander's trying to be like I,
you know, I experienced something similar, like I totally relate
to you. And Larry thinking that Xander's confighting in him
that he is gay is one of my favorite scenes
in the entire show. And I understand there is a
trope of like, homophobic bully is actually gay themselves, and

(54:05):
then also like Xander then goes into gay panic afterwards,
So I understand like why people wouldn't like it. I
don't feel that way. I love it. I also personally,
like think the scene is hysterical, and I think a
huge part of it is one Larry wasn't a homophobic bully.

Speaker 3 (54:24):
He was a misogynistic bully exactly.

Speaker 2 (54:27):
And I do think that that happens a lot. I
do think, like I mean, Larry is like misogynist, misogynist
to like an alarming, alarming degree. But I do think
there's a lot of gay men who are trying to
pass for straight who are really trying to do like
they're just play acting as boys. Well that's I should
not word it like that. That was actually reductive. Who

(54:50):
are just play acting as like straight men? Like, oh,
this is what I see in like TV shows and
movies and my friends is what I see them doing.
So I'm gonna copy it and amp it up to
show that, like I'm the straightest one here. Yeah. And
then specifically, the fact that Larry coming out is played

(55:11):
very sincere. All of the humor is Xander's gay panic,
Like all the humor, none of the humor is like
ha ha Larry's gay. It is like, haha, Xander is
having gay panics.

Speaker 1 (55:22):
It's such a huge misunderstanding and how did we get here?

Speaker 2 (55:25):
Yeah, And whereas like the Larry stuff is very sweet.
And then the fact that Larry the rest of the
episode is played kind of heroically as like, oh, now
that he is no longer hiding this thing about himself,
He's being very kind to people. He's helping this girl
pick up her books. He is like coming and looking
out for Xander. So and also like in the entirety

(55:46):
of Buffy, I think the queerness and the show is
a net positive obviously, like it's a show written by
imperfect humans, so there are you know, proms to be had.
But I think overall the show is incredibly queer positive
and did a lot of positive things for queer presentation.
So they can have a gay panic joke scene and
I can laugh at it and know that, like it

(56:06):
comes from a place of love and that the show
is very pro gay rights.

Speaker 1 (56:11):
Yeah, gay rights.

Speaker 2 (56:12):
I love that.

Speaker 3 (56:13):
No, I so agree that misunderstanding it's awesome.

Speaker 2 (56:17):
Xander being like, I know what you were up to
last night. Xander being like, hey, I just you know.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
I'm not trying to like, I just want I just
want to help you.

Speaker 2 (56:27):
Man, Like, yeah, I just want you to know, like,
i know what you're going through. I understand. I've been
there the same I've been through the same thing. And
then Larry being like, what are people gonna you know,
it's just different. I have a reputation, people chase me
out of town. What do they do when they find
out that I'm gay? Oh my gosh, I said it,

(56:48):
I'm gay. That felt so good. Cut to Xander what
so it is so funny. I think it's hysterical. It
also makes me laugh. At the end of the episode,
when Buffy and Xander are talking and Buffy is talking
about Oz and Xander's talking about Larry, and Xander is saying, like,

(57:09):
I just, you know, I just don't know how to
like act around him anymore, would you know? Is not
a way that you should be feeling about your friend
who just came out. But also, yeah, he's a teenager
in the nineties and he's experiencing gay panic and it's
largely for comedy, and I'm fine with that. But him
saying them having this conversation that he thinks is about Larry,

(57:32):
and then Buffy saying He's still a human being most
of the time, and that being in Xander's mind like
such a heinously homophobic thing that she's saying that he
goes about, who are we talking about? She's like Oz
just him in that moment, being like, holy shit, that
was the most homophobia.

Speaker 1 (57:53):
Thing I've ever heard.

Speaker 2 (57:55):
He's still a human being most of the time.

Speaker 1 (57:58):
Who are we talking about? Oh my god?

Speaker 2 (58:02):
I the reason. And we will continue to see Larry.
He pops, he continues to pop up. But like I
remember Larry very clearly in the show, because I am
such a huge fan of that scene. I think that
scene is so well written. Yeah, and also I think
Larry I mean like spoilers but not really because you

(58:24):
see to the end of the episode and Larry's future
appearances he is much kinder and he is not a bully.
I think he's actually like a positive representation of coming
out and why it can be helpful and how it
can be healthy.

Speaker 1 (58:38):
And yeah, yeah, I mean frankly, like I know plenty
of people who in their own queer journeys have a
lot under the surface that like makes them act out
and makes them mad, and then as soon as they
finally are able to let go of those those social

(58:59):
constraints and be themselves, like it brings so much peace,
you know. And like also like the compead of it
all where it's like, you know, this is how men
are supposed to act towards women. I'm gonna do that
so like so crazy, so hard, Like I fully I
so understand that.

Speaker 2 (59:19):
Yeah, the love rage, baby, Hey.

Speaker 1 (59:22):
I totally hear that. And I mean also just like
I love that scene so much because the actor playing
Larry is so incredibly sincere about it and you can
see it so like there is a huge wash of
peace in the honesty, and I think it's I think
it's wonderful.

Speaker 2 (59:41):
Yeah, And I feel like the humor is very much
we are laughing at Xander, not laughing with Xander. Yes,
like even.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
It's like, wow, what we really thought we were talking
about a totally different thing.

Speaker 2 (59:51):
And even earlier in the episode when Xander is when
he's with Cordelia in the car and he's just like,
can't get over the Willow dating Oz thing. Yeah, and
he talks but while he's so stressed about it, and
how like Oz a senior and he's very good looking,
I mean not to me, Like it's already that Xander
his masculinity is so fragile that he's like so afraid

(01:00:12):
that anyone could possibly think that he was gay. And
then for him to end up in a situation where
he accidentally told someone he was gay, like is very
funny and feels like it is not like, oh haha,
Xander's gay. It is more like, oh haha, this guy
whose masculinity is so fragile has just had that masculinity

(01:00:32):
like accidentally challenged.

Speaker 1 (01:00:35):
Yeah. So yeah, I so agree. I think it's great
and I agree to like this show was one of
the very first things in my life that showed me,
you know, positive queer characters, and it meant so much
to me, so I agree, Like, then, I think it'sn't
that positive the queer presentation on this show.

Speaker 2 (01:00:58):
I love you, Gailary. I did I think this happened later?
I forgot that it was this episode.

Speaker 1 (01:01:02):
I know, I thought so too. I thought it was
much later.

Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
I thought we had more. I remembered Larry being a
Bowlly for much longer. And then the switch. I like
thought it happened like midway through season three, so I
was kind of like, oh my gosh, wait, yeah, we're
already here.

Speaker 1 (01:01:18):
Hello Larry, Hello Larry. Shout out, shout out to day Larry.

Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
But speaking of velvet rage, Larry, who is still in
the closet and is angry and is lashing out. I
love you, Daniel Osbourne. The way that Oz is able
to diffuse Larry so masterfully. In that first scene between
Oz and Larry, when Larry is like, oh man, I'd

(01:01:45):
love to get some of that Buffy Willow action, you
know what I mean, And Oz's response is that's great, Larry,
You've really mastered the single on Tandra. And then when
Larry is trying to be like, oh, why are you
dating Willow? Like I bet she's like a freak in
the sack, Like that whole nice, innocent schoolgirl thing is
just an act. And O's response is, yeah, she's really

(01:02:06):
an evil mastermind. It's fun like he he is able
to shut down everything Larry says without starting a fight
with someone who is bigger and stronger than him is
going to kick his ass.

Speaker 1 (01:02:19):
I feel like when I was a kid, this is
how my parents taught me how to deal with bullies,
is to just say something so so diffusing and weird
that like they can't pick it back exactly, you know
what I mean. Like that is exactly how my parents
taught me how to deal with that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:36):
It's impossible to really ask because it's like you can't
really care about the situation. Yeah, because it's not even
like Oz isn't necessarily even like making fun of Larry.
He is just taking the conversation to such a different
place that it's like, Okay, well, now I can't talk
about your girlfriend being you know, y, your girlfriend being

(01:02:56):
part of my French a skank, because now you are
pretending that like has a secret evil lab and like
I don't know where to go with that.

Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
Yeah, like you just said something I can't respond to.
Exactly can we talk about There is so much sledshaming
in this episode in terms of like so much calling
women scace, calling women dirty hose, calling women like lots
of you know, really derogatory names. And I don't know,

(01:03:24):
like what is you know, like men are dogs but
women are skanks? Like what is the Like what's this
episode trying to say about that?

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
Do you think I know exactly what we're talking about?
With the Willow Cordelia of it all? Yeah, are there
other examples? I'm forgetting.

Speaker 1 (01:03:46):
I think it's mostly that, But I also think, like,
you know, we have gay Larry saying things and like
also like Xander is obviously very protective over Willow and like,
you know, preoccupied with this girl sexuality. I don't know,
but mostly the Willow and Cordelia of it all.

Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
This is just my perspective. I feel like most of
it is men are dogs. Most of it is toxic
masculinity and men trying to control women, men trying to
exert power over women, Like especially the Larry stuff, Like
everything he says is not about the girl. He's saying
it too. It's about him trying to exert this like

(01:04:28):
masculine power fantasy by objectifying the women around him, and
then the Xander stuff it is he is, so he
feels so emasculated all the time, and he's terrified that,
like he is now feeling less than because of Oz,
because here's this girl who was always obsessed with me,

(01:04:49):
and sure I don't feel the same way about her,
but like the fact that she was obsessed with me
did feed my ego and make me feel like a man.

Speaker 1 (01:04:58):
That doesn't mean I don't miss the attention.

Speaker 2 (01:04:59):
Exactly, And now she's moving on and that's making me
feel emasculated and fragile. And obviously he doesn't have the
emotional intelligence to clock that. That's why it bothers him.
But like, that is why it's bothering him so much,
and that's why he's so like I think Oz is
wrong for her, and I think that she shouldn't be
dating this older guy, and then it's dangerous. It's because
he doesn't like the fact that she likes someone else,

(01:05:22):
and therefore he feels less valuable. So those two situations,
I personally, my perspective once again feel like it is
a reflection of the toxic masculinity of the person saying it,
and not at all a reflection on the recipient.

Speaker 1 (01:05:36):
Of course. Oh I don't think so either way.

Speaker 2 (01:05:39):
Yeah, but like I don't think the episode is at
all trying to say like men are dogs and women
are skanks. I think the episode is trying to say
men are dogs and they treat women like skanks so
that they can feel like they're powerful.

Speaker 1 (01:05:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:52):
The Willow and Cordelia stuff, I mean, like sure, it's reductive,
but also like Willow is sixteen years old and this
girl has bullied her entire life, and she hates this girl,
so like I think I doesn't once again it's I.

Speaker 1 (01:06:08):
Mean to me, if you can't call your bully a
skank every once in a while, Yeah, in the in
the presence of a friend.

Speaker 2 (01:06:14):
Yeah, like shirt it's not very feminist of her, but
also like she's a sixteen year old girl in the
nineteen nineties who's talking to her friend about her bully, like.

Speaker 1 (01:06:23):
I and she also says like I've never said anything
that mean before.

Speaker 2 (01:06:28):
And the delivery, first of all, it is the lamest insult.
What's her number? Again?

Speaker 3 (01:06:35):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (01:06:36):
Yeah, one eight hundred I'm dating a skanky hoe. And
the way that she says it and does this like
way over the top. Irol afterwards. It is so like
little girl play acting high school mean girl. It really
tickles me. It really makes me laugh.

Speaker 1 (01:06:51):
I agree. Even Buffy is like, oh.

Speaker 2 (01:06:53):
What, oh you me coming off Willow? Yeah, I really
love me?

Speaker 1 (01:06:59):
Yeoh yeah, no, I do too.

Speaker 2 (01:07:01):
I would feel differently. I would feel bad about it
if Buffy was like, oh my gosh, he's dating that skank.
But it coming from Willow, it does feel like Willow
is so afraid, Like Willow is so like nice and
meek that she is overcompensating. She is like, oh, I

(01:07:26):
need to get back at Cordelia so much like Larry
is being like this is what straight men and movies
act like, so I'm gonna do it. Willow is being
like this is how like girls talk on TV, Like
this is how like the cool girls talk on TV.
So like, I'm gonna talk like that. Yeah, And it
feels so insincere that it exactly it doesn't raise any

(01:07:47):
red flags for me personally.

Speaker 1 (01:07:49):
And I think the thing that especially doesn't raise any
red flags to me about this whole situation is one
of my favorite parts of this episode is Willow and Cordelia, yes,
like bitching about Xander at the Bronze. This is one
of my favorite moments of like any Scooby moment thus far.
Like obviously Willow just had that huge moment with Xander

(01:08:14):
last episode, but she is like ready to move on,
Like it's sometimes I think things happen like this and
it's like the last thing you need to like really
move on from an unrequited crush. And I definitely see
that moving forward. She is gung ho dating Oz. She
is ready to move on. And now it's Xander who
won't shut the fuck up, and like how that is

(01:08:37):
really like messing with Cordelia, Like Cordelia is like it
is so frustrating, I cannot get closer to this guy,
like people, you finally know about us now and he
won't shut the fuck up about you and Buffy like
it's bothering me. And like these two girls breaking bread
in this way and being like, ugh, men are dogs,

(01:08:58):
Like it is so wonderful. And I know that Willow
doesn't blame Cordelia for the Xander situation even a little bit.
She blames Xander because men are dogs, and so I
really like her. Bitching to Buffy doesn't bother me even
a little bit.

Speaker 2 (01:09:13):
And like Cordelia validating Willow's issues with Oz and giving
her Yeah, it's really lovely.

Speaker 1 (01:09:20):
Oh my god, that's oh I love being a woman,
Like that's Girlhood's me is bitching on the couch at
the club with the girl, Like, oh my god, it's ugh,
that's everything.

Speaker 2 (01:09:33):
The Xander Buffy charged hug gets on my nerves. But yeah,
I will say I do think the dynamic is fun.
That it's like we had when the show started out.
It was like Buffy likes Angel, but Xander likes her,
but Willa likes him, and now they have all gone

(01:09:54):
in separate directions. But then like it feels like the
board could shuffle at any time. That it's like Willow
is now with Oz, but now like Xander weirdly feels
jealous about that fact, but like Xander is with Cordelia now,
but now he had like a weird romantic moment with Buffy,
who is now reeling from her breakup with Angel, Like
I will never get behind Buffy and Xander being together,

(01:10:17):
but there being this feeling of everyone is in like
such emotional turmoil, and the cards are being reshuffled so
frequently that like, oh no, a reshuffling of the deck
and people pairing off in a different configuration could happen
at any time.

Speaker 1 (01:10:35):
Yeah, it's such a extream, you know. It's like, you know,
especially like he's been pining for Buffy for so long
and she has been like incredibly spoken for even when
she wasn't with Angel, like she like her candle, she
was holding a candle for him, so it wasn't even
an option. And now that she's available in a different,

(01:10:56):
new way, how does that shake up?

Speaker 2 (01:10:59):
Yet's go going on?

Speaker 1 (01:11:00):
Like, it's definitely interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:11:01):
It's like just when I I mean, like I don't
think Cordelia is like his girlfriend, but like just when
I start to have a thing with someone, yes, suddenly
Angel leaves the picture in a way that like he
will never be an option again. Yeah, and like fuck
where does that leave me?

Speaker 1 (01:11:19):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:11:19):
Yeah, so woo dram I guess I do kind of
like it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:26):
Yeah, I definitely am frustrated about it, just because, like
you know, just from a sense of like gosh, we've
been through this. But it's also I feel like kind
of true to life. Yes, where you know, the second
you like start seeing someone, like someone comes out of
the woodworks and you're like, oh my god, where were you, like.

Speaker 2 (01:11:45):
A month ago?

Speaker 1 (01:11:46):
Well I'm gonna say no, but like, what the hell?

Speaker 2 (01:11:49):
It's the famous like right when you start dating someone new,
your ex text and is like, hey, how have you been?
And not that Buffy is his ex at all, but
it's like just when he has moved on, he now
gets a glimmer like, fuck, is she interested? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:12:02):
Seriously, It's like I thought we were past this. Yeah, ooh,
it's kind of drama, kind of fun. See what happens next.

Speaker 2 (01:12:12):
This is the.

Speaker 1 (01:12:13):
Hormone when they were yeah, when they were hugging. Honestly,
like this whole season has been the hormone.

Speaker 2 (01:12:19):
Specifically like phases. I think intentionally with the werewolf of
it all, I think this episode is the writers were
really leaning into teen hormones.

Speaker 1 (01:12:29):
Definitely, But I mean, yes, I shoot, what was I
saying that? When they hugged? I literally was like, oh
my god, are they about to get? Yes, Oh my god,
are they about to get? Like it does, It's incredibly effective.
The way it goes down. I'm like, well, I got scared.

Speaker 2 (01:12:49):
I will say like it is believable from Buffy's side,
and that she is at an incredibly low point. Yeah,
and just now Teresa has been turned into a vampire,
and she's like, this is my fault, Like I you know,
I sucked Angel's soul out of him and no, and

(01:13:12):
like that's the reason that Teresa's a vampire. And then
Xander is the one to be like, hey, if you
were not in town, I wouldn't have a head. Willa
would be with Robbie the robot. He will be lining
up five deep to be buried. You have helped this town.
And then not only that, but because Buffy is so
off her game, Teresa ends up getting the upper hand

(01:13:34):
and then Xander is the one who stakes her. I
do It is a moment of such vulnerability on Buffy's
point that I am like, I could see that even
though she's not really interested in Xander, never has been
that in this moment of extreme vulnerability, she's suddenly like, Oh,
I feel really close to you right now in a
way I never have before, and like I'm not sure
how I'm gonna act on this feeling.

Speaker 1 (01:13:54):
I know, I mean, you and I have shared a
hug or two like this where we're like, oh my god,
are we kids? Yes, we have no but I mean
it genuinely does happen, especially like I like he Gonn
just saved her and like it's being so nice and
it's like to be understood and got and also like
that he had her back like that, Like shit, I've

(01:14:17):
done worse for less, Like yeah, yeah, I don't fault
this girl even for a second.

Speaker 2 (01:14:22):
I've done a lot more than give a charged hug
to someone I wasn't that into when they did a
lot less than literally saved my life.

Speaker 1 (01:14:30):
My god, period. I don't know a lot worse.

Speaker 2 (01:14:41):
So our girl Teresa. In this episode, Teresa, she gets
killed by our evil boy and jealous David. Brianis is
now on the Jane Lynch contract where it's like, we're
gonna bring you on set for one day. You shoot
your one scene, you're out. Sarah Michelle still here like
twelve hours a day, six days a week, but David,

(01:15:03):
we need you for two hours.

Speaker 1 (01:15:05):
Seriously. I loved this scene so much with him and Teresa.
He's he's got a little daisy in his hands, I know,
and being so suave. I was like, yeah, I'd fall
for this. Yeah, man, I'd fall for this, And like
she's like so convinced that it cannot be him who's

(01:15:26):
fucking with her that she keeps looking behind Damn Angel,
I would fall for this.

Speaker 2 (01:15:31):
I do wish that we had seen Teresa even one
time prior to this episode. I just know it has
such an emotional impact on Buffy and it's so like
Angel's torturing her by going after her friends. But it's like,
who the fuck is this? I don't know this girl.
They took one self defense pe class together this episode,

(01:15:53):
and there have been one off characters in the past
that we could have just like brought back to give
this a bit more of a punch.

Speaker 1 (01:16:05):
Harmony Kendall, No, don't even joke about that.

Speaker 2 (01:16:08):
And I also like, I'm sure Buffy would feel guilty,
but like she doesn't like Harmony because I was thinking
about the mean head cheerleader who we've seen twice. But
I'm like, yes, Buffy doesn't like have a kinship to her.

Speaker 1 (01:16:21):
See, that's the thing, is my thought.

Speaker 2 (01:16:23):
My first thought is Amy Madison, but shout.

Speaker 1 (01:16:29):
Out to her mom. She's in this oisode.

Speaker 2 (01:16:30):
Catherine Madison is in the episode.

Speaker 1 (01:16:33):
Cannot Catherine Madison mentioned.

Speaker 2 (01:16:35):
But like, Amy would kind of be the perfect one
of like one off character who we would remember enough,
who Buffy has a kinship too. I do you know,
I somewhere in my heart, somewhere in my mind, I
feel like maybe they have other plans for Amy.

Speaker 1 (01:16:54):
I wouldn't know.

Speaker 2 (01:16:56):
I'm saying this because yes it's a spoiler, but Amy
is literally in the episode, like you'll see her within
the first few minutes. That's not a spoiler. So's not
killing her. Clearly, the writers, yea had they were.

Speaker 1 (01:17:08):
In a tough spot with all of their all their
one off and Buffy friends.

Speaker 2 (01:17:13):
Yeah, because really, I'm trying to think, like, of the
one off characters, the one off Sunnydale students, Amy is
kind of the only one that Buffy has good feelings
towards who is still alive like all the rest of them,
or like maybe Jonathan, but goodness knows, I want that

(01:17:36):
son of a bitch a lot. I love Jonathan.

Speaker 1 (01:17:40):
I also feel like, I mean, Buffy just doesn't have
a lot of friends, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:17:48):
Yeah, so the writers have to make one up.

Speaker 1 (01:17:50):
Yeah, they had to make one up. And I mean, like,
could they have introduced this girl an episode before, but yeah,
they'd have to pay her.

Speaker 2 (01:17:59):
Oh yeah, but I'm like, couldn't she have like been
in what's my line for like a scene.

Speaker 1 (01:18:05):
Yeah, see Teresa, or even like one line that's like
Teresa like thank you for helping me with math class.
You are my best friend.

Speaker 2 (01:18:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:18:14):
Well I don't know, I know, but like even something
like something that alludes to them having history.

Speaker 2 (01:18:20):
I don't even need them to be I don't even
need to believe that they hang out outside of course.
I just like need like they're in they're in kem
together in their lab partners like something like that.

Speaker 1 (01:18:31):
I'm like totally, like I'm still Facebook friends with these
girls who like we had every single class together and
we never hung out outside of class. But like I
know anything about her. I would die for her. Yeah, exactly, no,
I I and like I can totally see Teresa in
this position, but like we only get to see them
interact just a little bit.

Speaker 2 (01:18:50):
I don't know. I just wish. I wish that we
would have seen Teresa one time before this episode, because
we can see how rowing it is for Buffy. But
as an audience member, I feel nothing when this girl dies.
I'm not like, how evil of him. I'm like, Okay,
people die every episode, like I'm used to this by now,

(01:19:11):
and I mean, oh well.

Speaker 1 (01:19:13):
I mean, like other than like the girl who was
in detention with Buffy, we don't see a lot of
like teen girls straight up turn into vampires on this
show too frequently. So I wonder if you know there's
even like an unspoken rule where it's like the vamps

(01:19:36):
don't touch the teens, do you know what I mean?
Like and maybe like angels somehow, like I don't know. Obviously,
obviously these are lawless people. They don't give a fuck,
But like we genuinely don't see, especially teen girls turn
into vampires very frequently on this show.

Speaker 2 (01:19:53):
I wonder, I'm being straight up, I wonder if teenage vampires.

Speaker 1 (01:19:57):
Are really annoying, Oh my god, well hello.

Speaker 2 (01:20:00):
I wonder if they're like, yeah, we'll like drink from teenagers,
but like, don't fucking turn a teenager like their wreckords?

Speaker 1 (01:20:06):
Are you with the vampire?

Speaker 3 (01:20:08):
They're stuck in an adult exactly?

Speaker 2 (01:20:12):
You wait until they're an adult. But Angel was like
this girl, Buffy's gonna kill her anyway, just need to
deliver a message. So I bet, I bet that's why
they didn't want to change ward Ward? Is that is
that Buffy's friend from Letamise at Ward.

Speaker 1 (01:20:31):
Is? Yeah? Word sounds right, Ford.

Speaker 2 (01:20:35):
Ford Ford, That's that, you know, That's why they were
so resistant to change forward, Like you're fucking seventeen, You're
gonna be an annoying seventeen year old forever.

Speaker 1 (01:20:42):
You got to wait till you're eighteen?

Speaker 2 (01:20:45):
Now? Is this where we talk about speaking of Teresa
the Twilight New Moon of it All, which is whereof
Oz and vampire Angel fighting over Teresa's body? Yeah, Sebity Meyer.

(01:21:06):
I know she says she had a dream. I know
she says she had a dream, but I know that
when she had that dream was because she fell asleep
in front of the TV watching Buffy. The vampires exactly,
and the original were wolves versus vampires is Buffy Season two,
episode fifteen phases.

Speaker 1 (01:21:23):
And like them like growling at each other was giving treaty.
It was giving like you know, where the hell have
you been? Loca? Yeah? No, Absolutely, vampires and were wolves
their enemies, but I do love them both together. One
of my hair books, Bride by Ali He's a Wit,

(01:21:43):
is about a vampire woman and a were wolf boy
and they get married for convenience, which is one of
my favorite things that ever happens ever.

Speaker 2 (01:21:50):
Because then they accidentally.

Speaker 1 (01:21:52):
Fall as my favorite thing to happen to me.

Speaker 2 (01:21:57):
I love making as a werewolf one obviously like all
the narrative and what it represents. But more than that,
I think it's fun that there is another member of
the Scooby Gang that is supernatural. But then it's it's
a dangerous yes, because Buffy has like superpowers and hell yeah,
but Oz it's like, oh, he's our team and we

(01:22:18):
love him, but also three days out of the moment,
we have to lack him in a chaoss like we
got to be careful around his ass. I think it's
really fun to add another supernatural component to this group.

Speaker 1 (01:22:29):
I agree. I think it's it's also like, if we're
on this hell mouth, it would only make sense that
a few of these kids become supernatural over time. I
think it's really fun. And I love Oz's dynamic, and
I think Oz just brings a really fun dynamic into

(01:22:49):
the group. And I think wolves are sleigh and I
love that he's here, and.

Speaker 2 (01:22:58):
And did I already say this to have the character
who is the most emotionally regulated, be the one that
absolutely loses control three times a month.

Speaker 1 (01:23:07):
It is wonderful.

Speaker 2 (01:23:08):
Is a fantastic choice. And also Seth green A, I
think is very handsome, so this is not an insult.
He's got a bit of a canine looking face.

Speaker 1 (01:23:21):
Is this just you? No, I can see it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:23):
It's something in his nose and mouth area. Yeah, he's
got a canine look to him. So it's like I
see the wolf coming out already.

Speaker 1 (01:23:32):
I agree, I totally see that. I also feel like
just open this episode and be like, all men are dogs,
but look at this one, like of course, and you know,
we know why he is not like kissing Willow yet,
like he is waiting for the right moment, like we
literally know. So like all men other than Giles and
Oz are are dogs, like and then to have the

(01:23:55):
reveal that it's him, it's like, oh my god, I
wouldn't expect this. I wouldn't expect these too, exactly, and
like all men are dogs and in some ways more
than others, you know what I mean. It's just really,
really really thrilling, and.

Speaker 2 (01:24:11):
It's also very Scooby Doo that it's like we have
a werewolf opening scene like there's a yep, yeah, and
it's like who could be the werewolf? And we have
all these red herrings that Larry is the werewolf and
then the end they rip the mask off and it's
fucking Oice. It's the bass player from Dingoing My Baby,
Like damn. He would have gotten away with it too.

(01:24:32):
If it wasn't for you meddling kids and your stupid
were wolf, they would have.

Speaker 1 (01:24:37):
And that's the thing too, is I he would have
gotten away with it. And I'm so glad that Willow
was so brave to go over to his house and
be like, no, you're I'm gonna get answers from you,
like why don't why are you avoiding me? Why don't
you want to hang out? Like if she wouldn't have
done that, then god knows what could have happened. So

(01:24:57):
thank god she was brave enough to go over.

Speaker 2 (01:25:00):
It's also an episode of our normy Scoobies being the
ones defeating the supernatural. We got Zander killing the vampire
and then Willow is the one who trinks the werewolf,
which once again in the way that Oz has become supernatural.
Being part of the Scoobies, we now have our two
regular human beings, you know, becoming slayers in their own right.

(01:25:24):
And of course they will never be even close to Buffy,
but like, whereas they were absolutely helpless a year ago,
they now can handle themselves.

Speaker 1 (01:25:33):
Oz has the funniest lines mm hmmm, specifically like he comes,
like he comes into the library and he's like, is
everyone okay? Like it's the moment where he's like, you know,
probably going to tell them that he's a werewolf, and
he's asking like if everyone's okay, and they're like, yeah, no,
we're good, We're good, and then he yells, he goes Gladness.

Speaker 2 (01:25:57):
That's why your name on this car is glad. I
literally was like, what is she referencing?

Speaker 1 (01:26:02):
He just says the darnedest things.

Speaker 2 (01:26:05):
Oz says the darn thing.

Speaker 1 (01:26:07):
Darnedest And maybe it's just like Seth Green's like intonation.

Speaker 2 (01:26:12):
No, they write him in a very specific way. He
talks like all the time, Yes, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:26:19):
I bet he is. We Also I need to shout
out that Xander lets its slip that he remembers being
a hyena mm hm and everyone's like, you said you
can't remember thirsting for human flesh? You freak heat. I
feel like this episode has a lot of like fun
callbacks in ways that like, you know, like we're talking

(01:26:42):
about Catherine, We're talking about like being hyenas, like we.

Speaker 2 (01:26:46):
Mentioned teacher's pet with like and I wrote about you, Jane.

Speaker 1 (01:26:50):
Exactly like I feel like and especially like, coming from
the Glee space where things are so easily forgotten, it's
so nice to have an episode like just chock full
of remember this, remember this, remember this, like we do
like these all these things informed the characters.

Speaker 2 (01:27:07):
The pack is an incredibly important episode for this because
Xander's whole deal is like I can find out who
this were wolf is. I know how they think. I've
been there myself. I've been in the mind of any animal.

Speaker 1 (01:27:21):
I've been hungry like the wolf before exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:27:24):
I ate a pig. What was his name, Chester, I
think it was Herbert, Herbert. I don't have a lot
more to say about this episode. I think this is
very strong. I think mister Caine is a very maybe
funds the wrong word because he says upsetting things, but

(01:27:45):
he is a very good one off villain. I like
mister Caine a lot. I like the idea of this
as a man who's an exotic animal hunter one of
the most evil things you can be, specifically for werewolves,
and like has a tooth him. Every werewolf he's killed,
we see him melting his own silver and encasing it
in bold as a freak. It's so silly and weird,

(01:28:07):
and also he may be an asshole, but he has
He comes up with a very funny joke credit where
credit is due when Buffy is like, you can't kill
the were wolf, like that's a human being, and he
goes first. They say, I can't hunt elephants for their ivory,
and now I got to deal with people for the
ethical treatment of were wolves. That's a very good joke.

Speaker 1 (01:28:30):
I know it was definitely and I also like, I
just see I think he's necessary in this episode, Like
this is an older guy who like like travels in
his van chasing were wolves and like hates women, like
treats Buffy like shit every time he sees her. Like
this is like really toxic masculinity. He's super unchecked and

(01:28:52):
he's like one of the most evil things you can be. Like,
I think this is like incredibly necessary in this episode.

Speaker 2 (01:28:58):
And I'm saying I wouldn't have minded if he came back,
like I think having a werewolf hunter out there, yeah,
is a fun idea, and especially with one of our
one of the members of our main group being a werewolf,
like this is a character that could have had a
larger arc on the show. I also think it's fine

(01:29:20):
he's just in this episode. Yeah, but I just think
the idea of a werewolf hunter's fun.

Speaker 1 (01:29:24):
I agree. And I mean, obviously Tyvy show about a
vampire slayer, but like vampire hunters, werewolf hunters like these
are as in like integral to monster media as the
monsters themselves is the people who hunt them so and
then like someone who's like same, same but different to Buffy,

(01:29:45):
like someone who does this like for cash mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (01:29:49):
And I always find it very intriguing because obviously Buffy
got thrown into this world against her will, it was
thrust upon her. I've said this before. One of my
favorite aspects of the Buffy is these characters who are
just regular, degular people who clocked that supernatural things were
going on and then made a place for themselves in

(01:30:11):
the supernatural world. Yeah, whether that is like fighting evil,
whether that is making deals with evil like Willie the Bartender,
or whether that is hunting monsters for sport, like mister Caine.
I just think these normal human beings operating in a
supernatural world are very fun.

Speaker 1 (01:30:28):
I agree. I agree.

Speaker 2 (01:30:31):
Do you have any final thoughts about faces?

Speaker 1 (01:30:35):
I don't think so.

Speaker 2 (01:30:37):
Why do you think it's called phases beyond obviously the
phases of the moon, What's what's that double entantra?

Speaker 1 (01:30:43):
I think that double on Chandra is puberty.

Speaker 2 (01:30:45):
I think, you know, let's go through a lot of phases.

Speaker 1 (01:30:47):
Yeah, of course, and like you know, Oz says like
I'm going through changes, and Willow goes like you don't
think I am too. Like she lets you know that
she also has desire and wants and like urges to
you know, be with him in this way and to

(01:31:08):
like get to know him better and to you know,
like I think that that's a big part of growing up,
is like coming into your own in the hormonal sense.
I also feel like, you know, phases of you know,
learning more about like what you said, like your own
mental illness or your own queerness, like the phases of
your life and you getting more getting to know yourself

(01:31:29):
more and more. Like I think I think that's probably
what it means.

Speaker 2 (01:31:35):
I agree, Yeah, And.

Speaker 1 (01:31:37):
Like also like sometimes you like wear funny things, like
this was the phase of my life where I like,
we're the same hoodie for a year straight, you.

Speaker 2 (01:31:46):
Know, and like I went through a phase where I
was dating this type of person, which is you know,
a lot of dating drama in this episode. Or like
Larry is very much going through a phase where.

Speaker 1 (01:31:56):
He's anglesock phase.

Speaker 2 (01:31:58):
Yes, Larry's being like very performatively heterosexual in a disgusting way,
which is very much a phase. I'm trying to think
specifically of like the werewolf, because like being a were
wolf is not a phase for Oz, Like that just
is his reality from now on.

Speaker 1 (01:32:18):
Like, it's not a phase.

Speaker 2 (01:32:19):
Mom, Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:32:23):
Sometimes you know, and I mean, at least from my
perspective queerness. You know, I'm a bisexual person, and a
big thing is like is that just a phase or
are you going to grow out of being attracted to
the same gender? Are you just going to like, you know,
is this just a phase. Like, it's not a phase.

(01:32:43):
It's intrinsic. It's a part of you. And for some people,
you know, I hate to generalize, but you know, it's
not a phase. It's it's not a phase, Mom, it's real.

Speaker 2 (01:32:54):
Yeah, well, that's just why I brought the topic up,
was like with the werewolf at it all, because that
is now an intrinsic part of OZ moving forward. But
I do also I think it's a great title. I
just wanted to have an a large conversation about it.

Speaker 1 (01:33:10):
Oh yeah, no, I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:33:11):
Anyways, that's phases period.

Speaker 1 (01:33:15):
Who died Teresa twice?

Speaker 2 (01:33:17):
Just Teresa, but Teresa and vamp Teresa. I wrote, Teresa
and Teresa too, our deess, rip diva, rip diva, you
will be missed. When she died, I went, oh no,
not Teresa.

Speaker 1 (01:33:30):
No, that's Buffy's really went there. Her lab partner, nos was.

Speaker 2 (01:33:34):
They went, they go so far back to feel what
Buffy is feeling. This really had an effect on me.
Bye Teresa, by Teresa, you will be missed. We will
miss you most of all.

Speaker 1 (01:33:48):
Oh my god. Also, she like disappeared from her own casket,
Like if I was her mom, Like, what the hell,
I'd be so.

Speaker 2 (01:33:54):
Mad that girl. I didn't even think about that.

Speaker 1 (01:33:57):
She like a young girl like that her. No, that's freaky, freaky.
I'd be very upset.

Speaker 2 (01:34:04):
Oh my gosh, No, I know. My thoughts go to
Teresa's family. That's her horrifying. I truly had not considered
that because most of the time they're popping out of
their graves at that point, no one's peeking at the body. Yeah,
that's bad, bad the worst part time.

Speaker 1 (01:34:31):
Ian, What was your worst part of Phases Girl?

Speaker 2 (01:34:35):
I forgot to even think about this. I'd liked this
episode a bunch bunch bunch, so let me try and
find one the charge hug between Buffy and Xander. But
then I did talk myself into liking it. But I
think that's probably I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:34:55):
Know, still not like it.

Speaker 2 (01:34:57):
It's like probably still my worst part.

Speaker 1 (01:34:59):
Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:35:02):
I feel differently about it now talking about it.

Speaker 1 (01:35:04):
I feel like recently, especially with how much I've been
enjoying the show, I have to reframe the worst part
because like, there are things that have and will happen
probably on the show that are like straight up not right.
But a lot of the time it's just like, I mean,
I will probably say something that I don't like about
this episode, but I still enjoy it as a part

(01:35:27):
of the episode, do you know what I mean? Like,
I personally, I'm having to like reframe a lot of
my worst parts.

Speaker 2 (01:35:36):
Like, I'm just more like when I watched the episode,
I really hated that scene, and then when we talked
about it and talking about how the reshuffling of the
deck is really exciting and the life, it was sesstuousness
that the friend group is interesting. But I guess I

(01:35:57):
will still say that the charge and.

Speaker 1 (01:35:59):
It is the worst and started the episode for you,
you know, like, it doesn't mean it's necessarily bad.

Speaker 2 (01:36:05):
And I will say Oz is the Oz werewolf suit
is ugly as hell, but that's not my worst part
because I think it's camp and awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:36:16):
The way it's butt is shaped, it's crazy. Oh my god.
When it jumps onto like the coffee table at the
Bronze and you see like it's cheeks, I'm like, oh.

Speaker 3 (01:36:28):
My god, it's cheeked up in the middle of seriously, no,
my god.

Speaker 2 (01:36:33):
It's the most just like man in a monster suit
thing possible. And really I think it's so funny. I
really really like it.

Speaker 1 (01:36:41):
I so agree.

Speaker 2 (01:36:44):
What's your worst part?

Speaker 1 (01:36:45):
What is my worst part? I enjoy this episode. I
think my worst part is that buckhead Caine making a
gross joke to Buffy. I'm gonna kill him and I'm
glad that Giles stood up for her, but also Buffy
can stand up for herself. But I you make me
uncomfortable and I hate that guy. Oh yeah, what's your

(01:37:06):
best part of the of phases?

Speaker 2 (01:37:09):
I mean the gay panic scene. I think this is
a really strong episode, but that scene has stuck with
me over the years so strongly. I think about that
scene all the time. And one, I think that Larry
is good gay representation, and then two the Xander gay

(01:37:30):
panic makes me laugh every time. Yeah, what is your
best part?

Speaker 1 (01:37:37):
I think my best part is that Willow kind of
is the one who because she stands up for herself,
she's the one who ends up saving the day. Like
she is like coming into her own and she's becoming
more and more confident and realizing what she wants and
leaving behind what doesn't serve her. And she is the
one who, you know, because she took initiative, she gets

(01:38:01):
to save the day. And I just think that's so
wonderful and I love that. That was like my favorite
thing ever. I loved it.

Speaker 2 (01:38:08):
Holly.

Speaker 1 (01:38:09):
Yeah, Okay, Ian, I've got a big question for you,
what is your gay As part of the episode.

Speaker 2 (01:38:19):
We do have a gag coming out?

Speaker 1 (01:38:24):
Yeah, what's more gay than coming out?

Speaker 2 (01:38:27):
And I want to pick something else, like for the gag,
like to be funny. Yeah, but also like Larry comes
out as gay as this episode, so.

Speaker 1 (01:38:35):
I know it's so awesome, So.

Speaker 3 (01:38:38):
I guess like probably that. I love that, probably gay Larry.

Speaker 1 (01:38:43):
I love that. I think if I had to pick what,
like just something that is just different. I loved Buffy
in the end to Kane and she takes Kane's gun
and she said crazy and then she says, I hope

(01:39:03):
the door hits your ass on the way out of here.
I think, like a really serious kick you out of
the party is very gay and I loved it.

Speaker 2 (01:39:13):
This is also not my gayest part, but I forgot
to shout this out, which is when Giles and Buffy
are at Lover's Lane trying to find the werewolf and
they meet back up and did you learn anything? And
she's like did I? Ever? It starts gossiping about like
this person's kissing this person but they're actually dating that person.

Speaker 1 (01:39:32):
That was very fun, very gay, and I love that
so fun. Oh my god, I I loved that part
so much. It really made me laugh.

Speaker 2 (01:39:41):
We really this show is so good. I can't help
that we're really in in such a golden era of
this show. And when we were talking about season one,
and I loved season one and I loved it so
much more than I was expecting. When we were talking
about season one, I was kind of like, why did

(01:40:03):
I remember? Like, why did I like not remember this
season very much? Why do I just like not think
very highly of it? And I think season one rocks
after revisiting it, But then watching these episodes, I'm like, Oh,
this is why it is, because like the show gets
to such a high caliber and obviously there are some stinkers,
and we are gonna get to some stinkers, but it

(01:40:25):
tends to pretty consistently deliver from this point on. Oh
my gosh, what a joy, because next week we got
another banger. We get that we got another banger, Like,
oh my gosh. Well, if you have thoughts on phases,
you can send them to Recovering Gleek at gmail dot
com and then join us next week. As we talk

(01:40:48):
about I literally always forget the name of this episode. I'm
gonna say, I remember Bewitched, bothered and be bothered, and bewildered.

Speaker 1 (01:40:56):
I always want to say bewitched, bothered and bewildered.

Speaker 2 (01:41:00):
But here here's the problem is I know that song
a little bit. I know mush Nick and Son from
a Little Shop of Horrors very well, and that song
has a like joke about bewitch, bothered and bewildered, which
is I think it's bewitch, be fuddled and bereft. That's
what I'd be if Seymour left, and so I always

(01:41:22):
think the episode is called Bewitch, be Fuddled and bothered
because of a Little Shop of Horrors, be Witch, bothered
and bewildered. Next week, tune in.

Speaker 1 (01:41:30):
And I hope you follow us on social media. We're
at R two presents Underscore podcast on TikTok and Instagram,
and if you want to support a podcast, you can
leave us a rate and review, or if you want
to support us monetarily, you can do that on Patreon.

Speaker 2 (01:41:45):
We be set be fuddled than bereft is Mushnick and Son.
I'm so sorry I continue talking about.

Speaker 3 (01:41:50):
Patrios that song super well, as I said, it was
certainly not bewitched.

Speaker 2 (01:41:55):
I'm one thing you should know about me. I'm a liar.
To Patreon, you're a.

Speaker 1 (01:41:59):
Liar and if you want to supports on Patreon, we
are patreon dot com slash recovering Gleek. We've got two
tears on there for you. We've got Oddfrey listening, We've
got bonus episodes, and if you are our top chier
the podcast, are best friends of the podcast. You get
a little shouted at the end of the episode and
it's Ian stern Ian take that ship away.

Speaker 2 (01:42:19):
Thank you to know this guy, Natashas, Helio, Vanessa, Emily
Sonia A Rare and Olivia Morgs, Eida, Jack Carros, elizabethepressubbles
Eed and beyond a JP, Tanya, Catherine, Shannon and Rachel Drew, Christine,
Kaylee and Rachel Allison, Meg and Audrey, Alexander, Kylie, dust As, I, Jayen,
will Dinneka, Shlaine, Digna, Toast Writing People Who, Josette, Joe Lo, Madeline, Alani,
Elise Blanton, Alis, Patre, Nadia, Nikolaby, Christmas Story I, Lean,

(01:42:40):
Malory Hamantha, Rebecca Lela, Ari Bursa, Taylor, Frankie Barkaret, Just
Being to Emily and phoebe Aria, Ava Haley, Emily, Jack,
Lenelsie Lasso, Ray m As, Steph Charlie Kelsey, Thomas Tucco,
Brittany Kenzie, Michael Katie, Elizabeth Freddie, Thank you, Thank you, Patrian.
I hated that anywhere else in the house lock yourselves
up tonight. It's the night before the full boon.

Speaker 1 (01:42:57):
You got three nights, y'all get off the streets and you.

Speaker 2 (01:43:03):
What were you saying?

Speaker 1 (01:43:04):
Well? Are you going to say? You just said?

Speaker 2 (01:43:06):
Also, I was gonna say a very fun invention of
this show of like, oh my gosh, the lunar cycle
is so powerful that it's actually the night before and
the night after as well, because the whole like, we
got three nights to catch this mofo. And also it
allows us to have Oz discovered that he's the were
wolf and then immediately the next night be like I

(01:43:27):
have to do some shit about this instead of being
like I got twenty nine days to figure this out.

Speaker 1 (01:43:32):
You know what? I think I'm asking though, because he
didn't notice it all the first night.

Speaker 2 (01:43:36):
I think I was singing this too. I think he
thought he was sleepwalking because there was no the first night.
It wasn't like, oh, where is going to be out tonight?
I think he was just like, oh, I must have
slept walked, and you wake.

Speaker 1 (01:43:47):
Up naked outside to like one time, it's like, oopsie,
you wake up naked two times, I'm a were wolf.

Speaker 2 (01:43:53):
Oz sleeps naked every night.

Speaker 1 (01:43:56):
Who told me so?

Speaker 2 (01:43:56):
That wasn't a surprise, but out it was just being
outside that He was like, Oh, I guess I had
a weird night because I had some crazy dreams.

Speaker 1 (01:44:07):
But one time is a mistake. Two times you're a werewolf.

Speaker 2 (01:44:10):
Two times. This is acanthropy, exactly, seriously, wake up outside
once a mistake, wake up outside to side twice, lacanthropy.

Speaker 1 (01:44:20):
And I've always said that, and I've always said that.
And by the third night you've killed, you've killed Teresa.
And by the third night you killed Teresa, Theresa.

Speaker 2 (01:44:28):
No, that is an adage as old as time. My
grandma used to say that to me. I remember one
of my earliest memories is being at my grandma's house
and her saying, wake up outside once a mistake, wake
up outside twice, lacanthropy, wake up outside three times, you've
killed Teresa. And I just it's something I think about
a lot. I think it applies to a lot of

(01:44:49):
different aspects of life.

Speaker 1 (01:44:50):
You know, my grandma had a stitch on a pillow.

Speaker 2 (01:44:52):
Yes, it's a crustitch hanging above the hearth exactly. Hu.

Speaker 1 (01:45:02):
Bye, here's a kiss on your forehead if you accept.
Oh I'm not aware wolf though, so don't you worry.

Speaker 2 (01:45:11):
Ah bye bye. Thank you for listening. Follow us at
Recovering Gleek Underscore podcast, Email us at Recovering Gleek at
giba dot com, join our Patreon Patreon dot com, slash
Recovering Gleek, rate and review us and tell your friends
please this is lac anthruppy move.

Speaker 1 (01:45:29):
So no should I met Shakira when what at Blue
Main Group? She was so freaking nice. It was awesome.
She was like asking me questions. I literally was like, Shakira,
I you're actually a real life princess. One time I
saw Judith Light you.

Speaker 2 (01:45:47):
We can't talk about Judith Light again. You just end
up sad. You just end up angry and sad. We've
been through this, we have. Yeah, are you serious?

Speaker 1 (01:46:02):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:46:03):
You've told me like at least three times that you
saw your light and every time I say, I don't
know who that is, and then it has its exact
reactions and then I look up I look up her
filmography and I say, I'm so sorry. I've never seen
any of you.

Speaker 1 (01:46:18):
I've never seen the menu, You've never seen it. You've
never seen the politician.

Speaker 2 (01:46:25):
I've never seen who's the Boss. Oh, you're right, I've
never seen ugly Betty everything transparent. Wait, isn't you with
light in in the Jonathan Larson movie Tiptic Boom. Isn't
she his agent?

Speaker 1 (01:46:40):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:46:40):
Yeah, okay, i've seen that. I've seen one thing. She's
Rosa in Taictic Boom, Johnny